Rome: Total War The Dark Ages Mod

[boranchistanger]

Rome: Total War
The Dark Age Mod

Forum: Coming Friday
Website: Coming Friday
Planned Release Date: May 30, 2005

Greetings. Well, a couple friends and I have hammered out a plan for a new full-scale mod of Rome Total War (This was actually our back up plan to the Barbarian Invasion Mod) and this mod will be based during the period between 620 A.D and 1000 A.D. Before describing the mod itself, let me briefly discuss that period.

The Western Roman Empire collapsed in the mid 5th century and in its place rose numerous Germanic Kingdoms, namely the Goths (Italy/Spain), Franks (France), Vandals (North Africa) and Anglo-Saxons (Britain). In the east, the Roman Empire lived on, only it was now ruled from Constantinople. In the 6th Century A.D, the Roman Emperor Justinian sent his capable general Bellisarius west to retake the former Roman provinces. This Bellisarius did, taking Italy, North Africa and parts of Spain. This expedition left the treasury empty, however, and this would have later repercussions on world history.

The Parthian Empire had been replaced by another Persian one, and they, like the Parthians, had been a thorn on Rome’s side. After a shaky succession to the Roman throne, the Persians attacked the empire and made huge inroads into the Asian provinces. Coupled with an invasion in Italy by the Lombards, the Roman Empire seemed screwed. Antioch, Damascus, Jerusalem, and Alexandria all fell to the Persians while only Rome and The toe remained of Roman Italy. However, a capable Roman named Heraclius (Took power in 620 A.D) took the throne and drove the Persians back, forcing a stalemate. Both sides had been mortally wounded and in this weakness a greater enemy arose. Muslim Arabs swept out of Arabia and completely overran the Persian Empire along with all Asian Roman provinces. Soon, Constantinople itself was under siege and the fate of the world was in the balance.

While this was going on in the east, the Franks were forming a kingdom and the Anglo-Saxons were driving out the old Celtic tribes from Britain. This time is very interesting for it shaped the world we live in today. Islam spread like wildfire because of the weakness of the Roman and Persian Empires, however what if those two empires had been healthy at the time? Islam was eventually halted by the failure to take Constantinople. What if Constantinople had fallen? In this mod, you will be able to answer these questions.

Now, onto basics. The campaign map itself will be adjusted to fit in Scotland and the city names will be updated to fit the time. There will be brand new factions and units (See bottom) along with minor changes to the game itself (More realistic unit speed). The campaign map will be done by my partner Josh and myself while the unit models will be done by both volunteers and freelancers while another group will work on the coding aspect. Still another group will work on the historical and planning aspect of the mod. The work by all of these different groups will come together in one heck of a mod.

Now, the first phase of this is actually planning and laying out the details. A meeting to discuss the details will be held on the Friday after Thanksgiving at 8pm EST on a chat room (Link Coming Soon). Anyone who wishes to give their opinions on certain aspects can attend. Now, below are the current planned factions in the mod along with some unit brainstorms Josh and I have had. At the bottom of the page there is information on how to join the mod. A website and forum will be up by Friday.

Eastern Roman Empire

Infantry
Byzantine Peasants (Bums taken from taken from the street)
Militia (Light Infantry)
Greek Early Scutatus Numerus (Light Infantry)
Asian Early Scutatus Numerus (Light Infantry)
Greek Late Scutatus Numerus (Light Infantry)
Asian Late Scutatus Numerus (Light Infantry)
Federate Infantry (Light Infantry)
Optimati Infantry (Heavy Infantry)
Byzantine Archers (Short Range Bow)
Archers Elite (Long Range Bow)
Buccellarii (Elite Heavy Infantry)
Byzantine Pikemen (Pike Infantry)

Cavalry
Byzantine Cavalry (Light Cavalry)
Early Cataphract (Heavy Cavalry)
Late Cataphract (Heavy Cavalry)
Cataphract Elite (Heavy Cavalry)
Cataphract Archer (Missile Cavalry)
Royal Guard (Heavy Cavalry)

Siege
Early Catapult
Late Catapult
Batista
Heavy Batista

Persian Empire

Arabs

Vandals

Visigoth Kingdom

Lombards

Frankish Kingdom

Anglo-Saxons

Celtic Tribes

Avars

Bulgarians

Slavs

Turks

Norsemen (Maybe Vikings)

Rebels


We need modelers, coders, history buffs and pretty much anyone else. If you are interested post here and/or attend the meeting.

-Boran Chistanger
Email: boranchistanger@yahoo.com
AIM: boranchistanger

[kataphraktoi]

Kataphraktoi wants in, it looks like a serious mod project.

I have information about 6th, 7th century troop types for the Eastern Romans.

If need be, history of the Tagmatic troops formed under Constantine V

I'd like to mod, but I don't know what graphics software I need.....I have the whole summer to tinkle around so anyone want to help or suggest any programs???

[kataphraktoi]

Justinian''s army had a variety of mercenaries, the problem was procurement within the empire. You can;t just recruit Huns in Constantinople. However, their outpost in the Klimata (Cherson, Crimea) allowed them to come in contact with various barbarian groups. Plus marauding groups in the Balkans near the fringes of the Danube yielded Slavic, Gepid and Lombard mercenaries.

An obvious one is the Ghassanids, they can be recruited in Damascus, Judea and Petra since the Arabs have moved closer to the urban areas in the 6th century.

A suggestion only, feel free to disown it:

Hunnic archers
Slavic infantry (spear and shield)
Slavic infantry (javelineers)
Gothic infantry (recruited from Gothia in the Crimean peninsular)
Gepid infantry (spear and shield)
Gepid Lancers
Lombardic infantry (armoured infantry)
Lombardic Lancers (elite heavy cavalry)
Moorish light cavalry
Ghassanid Arab light cavalry
Ghassanid foot archers
Black Nubian guardsmen (recruited by officials in Egypt, mainly Thebes provinces)

[JANOSIK007]

Hey I am here as well.

So here goes my response to your last post.

Not really. Slavs were sedentary centuries even millenia before the common era. Experts estimate that around 3000 to 2000 BC we can see a distinct group of Slavs froming between Dnieper and Dniester rivers. Scythian incursion in 500 BC has significantly disturbed their developement. Driven by not entirelly known reasons they started migrating around 5th century AD that by early 7th c. they spanned from Elbe to Dnieper. Slavs weren't nomads by a longshot, much like Germans and Celts weren't. As they settled they started forming confederacies for mutual protection. The map you've shown is at the earliest stage of developement, but in mid 600s they forming up for mutual protection. One of the most successful and famous of these tribal unions was Samo's Empire, so called because Samo (a Frank merchant) was its leader. They successfully defended themselves against Avars and sigmificantly reduced their influence in central Europe (in half almost), as well as against Frankish invasions. I think this is quite ironic, because just 500 years ago Germans were ones ambushing a foreign invasion and now samething was happening to them. There was also one major battle which the Slavs won and ended Frankish insatiable thirst for conquest further east. When Samo died so did the 'empire.' However, out of its ashes arose a new empire 200 years later. In early 800s we can see Morava becomming a contender for power in cetral Europe that by late 800s it held a vast amount of lands in the central Europe (bigger than Samo's). Also at that time Kiev was becoming a major power in the east and by late 10th c. it was the biggest power in the east.

I don't think that it is best to unite them all. They would be too powerfull (not to mention unhistorical). Perhaps I can send you a comprehensive map of the Slavs and different tribes (there was like two dozens of them). It also shows confederacies that emerged at that time (before Morava). The best would be to have these confederations (about six of them) as nations and the rest as rebels (most would be rebels).

[boranchistanger]

Alright, the forum is up! http://rtwbi.proboards29.com

If you are interested in joining the team, post there.

-Boran

[kataphraktoi]

WHat the hell? I didnt suggest that Slavs were nomadic!?

I had in mind Slavs as mercenaries that could be recruited, last thing on my mind was some united Slav state in the 6th century as soome nomadic invader.

Unless u were referring to something else. AH, the drawbacks of electronic communication.

[JANOSIK007]

WHat the hell? I didnt suggest that Slavs were nomadic!?

I had in mind Slavs as mercenaries that could be recruited, last thing on my mind was some united Slav state in the 6th century as soome nomadic invader.

Unless u were referring to something else. AH, the drawbacks of electronic communication.


~:) I wasn't responding to you. It was from a discussion on TW Center which I carried over to this forum, but now since the forum is up I will move yet again.

So, I guess you can call me a nomad after all :charge: . An Electronic nomad.

[JANOSIK007]

And Im bringing the Central European maps here as well.


http://www.twcenter.net/forums/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=286128



http://www.twcenter.net/forums/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=286087

[kataphraktoi]

Heehee finally we soughted it out :D

are u on the team for this mod?

[Zharakov]

i would like to help. I can test and offer information about the Byzantines.

[JANOSIK007]

Well, I am not sure to what extent I am going to be 'on' this mod, but I will offer any help I can (nothing to do with actual moding ~D ).

I wish I could do the computer designing.

We desperatelly need some modders in here.

[boranchistanger]

OK: Planning meeting on Friday December 3, 2004 at 7pm EST. This meeting will be on AOL Instant Messenger. If you want to help me figure out units and other historical things, please come. Contact me on AIM before or during that time for more information. My AIM is boranchistanger and my email is boranchistanger@yahoo.com

-Boran

[JANOSIK007]

What if AOL is inaccessible to some members.

[boranchistanger]

then you will be unable to attend the meeting and will have to just comment on the mod's forum when the meeting is posted on the forum.

-Boran

[Romaoi]

There are many people roiling the steppes during this period, for instance the Bulgars were very strong and a serious military threat to the East Roman Empire, Under Khan Krum and Tzar Simeon, the Bulgarians forced the defeated Byzantines to shelter behind their land walls in Constantinople. Had they pocessed a fleet or siege technology the might have conquered the Romans before the Fourth Crusade in 1204 or the Turks in 1453!

Here is a rough timeline:

482 AD: the Turkic speaking Bulgars are living near the river named for them (VOLGA). Hence the Volgar-Bulgaria in MTW.
584: Kubrat unifies the Bulgars and and various client peoples on the steppes.
650: The expansion of the Khazars drives the Bulgars westward.
681: Under the leadership of Asparouch (Kubrat's son) the Bulgars cross the Danube into modern Bulgaria, the Romans eventually are forced to accept their existence as an independent kingdom. The Bulgars weld their various Slavic clients into a powerful kingdom headed by a Turkic speaking military aristocracy. Eventually the Turkic speaking Bulgars become gradually assimilated iwith their Slavic speaking subjects.
807: Khan Krum becomes king of the Bulgars and establishes his capital at Pliska. The Magyars settle north of the Danube and become foederati of the Bulgars.
810: Khan Krum destroyes the Avars in what is now Hungary.
811: Plisk is sacked by the Romans and Khan Krum's utterly destroys the Roman army in a mountain pass, killing the Emperor Nicephorus I . The Khan has the emperor's head made into a gold drinking goblet.
813: Khan Krum takes Hadrianopolis (Adrianople) in Thrace.
814: Khan Krum dies on his way to take Constantinople and is succeeded by his less warlike son Omurtag (the Byzantines get a breather)
852: Khan Boris becomes ruler of Bulgaria, and he moves Bulgaria closer into the Byzantine cultural sphere.
863: Khan Boris converts Bulgaria to christianity and takes the name Michael and the title of Tzar (Caesar) from the Emperor Michael of Constantinople.
863: The Byzantines send the brothers Cyril and Methodius from Constantinople to translate the bible and orthodox liturgical texts into Slavonic. They then leave on a mission to convert the slavs in Moravia. The newly Christianized Bulgaria's capital is moved to Preslav.
893: Tzar Boris-Michael decides to enter a monastery and names his son Vladimir as his successor. Vladimir leads a Bulgar counter revolution against Slavic, Greek and Christian elements in Bulgaria. Tzar Boris returns from the monastery, defeats his son, blinds him and returns with him to the monastery, leaving his other son Simeon as Tzar. Simeon was educated in Constantinople for an eccleastical career.
895: The Byzantine emperor bribes the Magyars to attack Bulgaria. After being defeated by the Magyars, Tzar Simeon bribes the Petchnegs to attack the Magyars. The defeated Magyars retreat west where they overwhelm the Moravians in their turn.
896:Tzar Symeon defeats a Byzantine army for the first time, and subsequently extends his rule into most of the Balkans to the walls of Constantinople.
922: Tzar Symeon defeats the Byzantine army for the fourth and last time. The Easter Roman Empire in Europe is reduced to Constantinople and some Maritime city enclaves in Greeece.
927: Tzar Symeon of dies, while preparing another siege of Constantinople.

And it goes on and on. The First Bulgarian Empire is finally conquered by the Byzantine Emperor Basil the Bulgar Killer in the tenth century.

Bulgar Armies of this period consisted of Bulgar Horse archers and Slavic infantrymen.

[JANOSIK007]

pretty good chronology, except for two corrections that need to be made.

Cyril and method were first sent to Moravia and you implied they were sent to Bulgaria. Rastislav asked for someone as a conter to Romanized Frank missionaries.

Magyars moved westward with Bavarians' incentive, who wanted to stop the expansive Moravian Empire, as well as Pecheneg pressure. I am not sure about the nature of relationship between Bulgars and Pechenegs, but I am pretty sure that Byzantines wouldn't call Magyars on their allies, the Moravians. In fact, Moravians were exerting some pressure on Bulgars and managed to snatch some territories from them.

Maybe this is what happened (know the pieces fit at least to me): Byzantines called Magyars to settle in present day Romania and weaken Bulgars. Magyars did that and by 895 they created a major settlement northwest of Olt river that up to recent times was a major concentration of Szekely people (Magyar related). But Pechenegs were pushing westward and with an added incentive from Bavarians, Magyars moved once again so that by 901 they established centers in upper danubian plains. Perhaps.

I have only heard of the Bavarian involvement. Byzantines had too much to lose to call Magyars west

[Jamais Le Dimanche]

No I believe it shows that Cyril and Methodius were engaged in Translating Orthodox liturgical texts before they were sent to Moravia. Bulgarian Orthodox activity ocurred at the same time but separately. The two saintly brothers were sent to Moravia at the behest of the local ruler Prince Rostislav. The two brothers became involved in a dispute with german Catholic missionaries which resulted in Cyril journeying to Rome, where he died. After the Catholic party took over in Moravia, the slavonic vernacular liturgy was suppressed and the Orthodox missionaries were expelled. These disciples of Methodius later found refuge with Tzar Boris-Michael in Bulgaria. This Tzar awarded one of these, St. Clement a Bishopric at Ochrid in what is now Macedonia.

The war between the Romans (Byzantium) and Bulgaria resulted from a trade dispute. The Byzantines bribed the Magyars to attack the Bulgarians and they were initially succesful. The Bulgarian ruler, the resourceful and highly educated Simeon (he was educated in Constantinople and spoke fluent Greek) bribed in turn the Petchnegs, a steppe tribe that had close kinship ties with the Bulgarian,s Turkic ruling classes. Together the Bulgars and Petchnegs inflicted a decisive defeat on the Magyars, driving them westward from what is now Moldavia-Romania into what was then Moravia. (too bad for the Moravians). Simeon then turned southward and defeated the Romans in a sucession of battles, conquering most of the Balkans north of the gulf of Corinth with the exception of Solonika and a few large cities that could be supplied by sea.

This would be a very exciting period to mod, I think. A map with Constantinople at the center. Instead of Mongol Hordes, you could have "Frankish Hordes" appear periodically in the west, and Muslims in the east. Bulgarians, Serbians, Croatians, Moravians, Avars, Cumans, Petchnegs, Khazars and others all tried with varying success to found states bordering Byzantium. A few, (Serbia and Bulgaria) manged to become serious threats to Byzantine existence. On the other half you would have the various Turkic peoples, Sejuks, Osmanlis, Gagauz, and in the Southeast the Arabs. The object could be preserving Byzantium or conquering it until 1460 or something.

[Romaoi]

Jan,
I think that is my poor english skills. What I meant to say was that the two brothers Constantine (later Cyril, upon taking the orders) and Methodius were directed to translate various Orthodox religious texts into Slavonic. The two were from Thessalonika and may have been slavs themselves. I don't want to tread on somebody's nationalist toes here. The could have been Greek too. Either way, both the Moravians asked the Roman Emperor at Constantinople to send them some missionaries, perhaps to counter some Greman Catholic threat. So the two brothers went to Moravia and Methodius became an Archbishop there. Preaching Christianity in a language that the Moravians could understand gave the Orthodox an advantage in this endeavor, which generated a dispute between them and the Latin speaking German Catholic missionaries.

In the event, the Catholic won out in the long run, you obviously know more about Moravian history that I do and the Orthodox were driven out from Moravia. The disciples of Methodis and Cyril were then able to find refuge in Bulgaria, with their leaders (Methodius having died) Naum becoming a Bishop in Preslav and Clement becoming a Bishop in Ochrid.

The proto Bulgars were Turkic speaking steppe horsemen. They formed a confederation on the steppes including many other tribes. They came under attack by the Persian speaking Khazars and migrated westward. Being mobile they just basically packed up and left.

By the nineth century, the Bulgars had wrested territory from the Romans in the Northern Balkans. The Magyars were in what is now eastern Romania and Moldavia, north of the Danube and west of the Dneister river.

When Tzar Simeon used a trade dispute to attack the Romans, the Roman Emperor Leo bribed the Magyars under Arpad, to attack Bulgaria from the north. This Magyar attack was at first successful. However, the Emperor then made a hasty armistice with the Bulgarian leader Simeon, leaving the Magyars to face the wrath of the full Bulgarian Army by themselves. Furthermore, the Simeon (not called The Great for nothing) induced his kinsmen, the Petchenegs to attack the Magyar,s unprotected lands from the east. Caught in a Bulgar-Petcheneg pincer, the Magyars were defeated and the Jen tribe was almost wiped out. Unable to return to their former lands, the Magyars withdrew to the west, where they became the Moravians headache.

[JANOSIK007]

I meant to write wouldn't..Byzantines wouldn't call Magyars on their allies.

Yes, all these facts check out. I too understand that Cyril and Method were translating liturgy into slavonic before they arrived in Moravia. I heard and read that they did it on their voyage. They obviously had knowledge of Slavic language and in their outpost town on Thessalonica have came into contact with southern dialects. So perhaps they were stationed along the way in Bulgaria, which took them few months to accomplish (the voyage that is). Also, I would like to point out that the squabble between Frank clerics and Greek wasn't yet the Catholic vs. Orthodox. Cyril and Method gained Pope's approval, but Franks sought more influence in the region. Schism occured later with Whate remined Moravia (under Magyars) becomming catholic, while the eastern parts that came under Galician Rus moved towards Orthodox until the creation of Uniate church around 15-16th century.

[Speiz_Bankurt]

According to the Gesta Hungarica which is a history of the Hungarians written in the early 12th century, the Magyars also encountered the brothers Cyril and Method who attempted to convert them. The Magyars refused but were polite to them as they recognised them as "holy men".

Anyway, I was wondering, when the Magyars moved westward into the Carpathian basin in 890 and clashed with the Moravians, was there a battle or any kind of clash between the two? I've read a fair bit about the Magyar Conquest but never find any mention of a battle with the Moravians.

[JANOSIK007]

There were battles, but can't remember specifically. Magyars won most of them, but their incursions weren't as violent. Some scholars have portrayed Magyars to be invited by Moravians and settled in Pannonia. One thing is for sure, Moravia was heavily weakened and decentralized at that point. There was a civil war in effect between two brothers (possibly three). Later Bavarians (the people who invited Magyars) started to side with Moravians and both won few insignificant victories, but it was too late. Also, there was dissent from which Magyars generated some support of the native population. Complicated political situation.

There is a wonderful legend from this period about Svatopluk's branches. Svatopluk was the last prince and the greatest at that. At his dying bed he invited his three sons and had them break a branch that were given out. They did that with ease. Next he had three branches weaved together and then asked them to try to do the same, but none could. And from it he derived a lesson for them that they should stay together and they will remain unbreakable, but if they fight one another and separate, they'll be just as easily broken as the lone branches. I think this was one of the earliest slavic recorded (secular) writting.

[Speiz_Bankurt]

You know there are very few archeological finds of Slavic settlements in present day Hungary, the few that exist are west of the Danube. Is it possible that Moravian power was only political and they just ruled over a mixed Avar-Slavic population in that area?

[JANOSIK007]

The reason for it is sparse population, not so much lack of control over the region. I read some numbers that Panonian Slavs numbered to 500K when Magyars arrived. There might have been other inhabitans (remains of hun and avar occupation). Not to say that Moravia had a complete control over its conquered regions (it was still in transition form tribal to state in peripheral parts of the empire). You'll hardly find a fairly centralized state in Europe at that time. One thing I would like to know is the size of Magyar invasion. I would like to know the numbers accompanying them.

[Speiz_Bankurt]

Magyars were estimated to be at 500-600K, but understandably very hard to tell. In my opinion, they would have had to outnumber the people they have conquered otherwise the Magyar language would not exist today and the same thing would have happened to them as with the Bulgars. The Szekelys were there already, speaking Magyar or a language very similar (they are a bit of a mistery), their numbers unknown. Avars might have possibly spoken a similar language as Magyar (the Magyar finno-ugric theory has never been a very convincing theory).

[Paul Peru]

http://freepages.history.rootsweb.com/~catshaman/in/indexAE.htm

Your Highness, you are also like a stream of bat's piss.
(you shine out like a shaft of gold when all around it is dark)

[friendlyindian]

Im a noob and I don't know anything about modding, but I do appreciate your efforts to create a Dark Age Mod. ( I am very anxious to play the Byzantine Empire.) If you need my help, Im here. I can probably test it.

[humvee2800]

lol i think anyone would wanna test it (especially me hinthint)

[Leif]

Give me this mod now!!

Sounds great, Maybe I could test it too, Humvee2800 (hint, hint)

[JANOSIK007]

What is going on with this mod. So quiet.

[Khagan]

Is this mod still in developement?

Btw, JANOSIK, Romaoi, and Speiz_Bankurt I enjoyed reading the discusions you were all having about the Avars, Bulgars, Magyars, and Pechenegs. This time period (Dark Age-Feudal Age) is my favorite in European history!




(the Magyar finno-ugric theory has never been a very convincing theory).


Speiz_Bankurt,

Yes, so true about the "Finno-Ugric" theory never being a very convincing one, it's so full of holes they should have named it the "Swiss-Cheese" Theory. :cheesy:

[caesar44]

yes
the most interesting period in europe history
everything was possible , barbaric invasions , collapsed empires , new nations ets :book: