Culture Public Order Penalties

[therother]

A summary of this thread will appear here shortly.


A few notes: The original first post has been deleted. The important content is quoted below by JeromeGrasdyke.
This thread has been created by splitting this thread (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=38089) into two new threads. You can find the other part here - Unrest Penalties (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=40421).

[JeromeGrasdyke]

All right, as far as I can tell from a few fragmented games, you either get an initial 50% Culture penalty when you take an enemy city, or you get none (if you are from the same culture).

Questions:

Is the 50% figure right?
What happens if the city you’ve just taken had yet been to be converted by its previous owner?
Does replacing cultural buildings affect assimilation time?
If so, which buildings? Just the temples or, for example, do Romans have to destroy execution squares as well?
Anyone have any data on the decrease of the Culture penalty.
Any other relevant factors?


The 2nd issue concerns Unrest. I've noticed you get it in cities that you've just conquered and in those that have just revolted. But:

Is it always at the same level?
How does it vary?
Why do you get it in more settled cities?
Can you get it when a city is discontented/disillusioned, but has not yet revolted?
Any other relevant factors?

TIA.

Culture penalty has a maximum of 50%. As a general rule of thumb, the amount is determined by the proportion of buildings in the settlement which have been built by factions of your culture - for example, if you're playing the Julii, and you take over a Greek city which is split 50% between buildings built by the Greeks and the Brutii, you should see something like a 25% culture penalty. Then when you replace the buildings built by the Greeks, the culture penalty disappears. Who last built a building-of-governance has a substantial influence as well.

Turmoil on the other hand has quite a few causes; it includes unrest after a city has changed hands (which dissipates over time), problems due to a Governor's unpleasant habits and a bunch of other things. It can vary quite a bit.

[therother]

Culture penalty has a maximum of 50%. As a general rule of thumb, the amount is determined by the proportion of buildings in the settlement which have been built by factions of your culture - for example, if you're playing the Julii, and you take over a Greek city which is split 50% between buildings built by the Greeks and the Brutii, you should see something like a 25% culture penalty. Then when you replace the buildings built by the Greeks, the culture penalty disappears. Who last built a building-of-governance has a substantial influence as well.

Turmoil on the other hand has quite a few causes; it includes unrest after a city has changed hands (which dissipates over time), problems due to a Governor's unpleasant habits and a bunch of other things. It can vary quite a bit.Thanks a lot Jerome, very much appreciated. ~:cheers:

[Jambo]

WOw, so culture penalty isn't related to the population, but more the culture of the buildings present?? I might consider knocking down a few more of these foreign buildings then!! Previously, I've just been using the other culture's buildings and bonuses to train and retrain my troops. No wonder I've been having some issues with public order...

Exterminating might not be such a good idea then, if you want to replace another culture's advanced buildings. One you knock them down to improve the culture penalty, the population won't be high enough to re-build your own...

Thanks for the information Jerome.

[The_Emperor]

The interesting thing is some things CANNOT be knocked down... Lets say you take Carthage for example (one rebellious hellhole that deserves Burning to the ground if your Roman)...

When I took it over it was alread well advanced and had a high up Carthaginian Governor's building, now I could not demolish it in order to get a Roman one built without upgrading it to the next level Roman one... But Carthage with a huge population of course means one thing: Revolts before you can upgrade!!

This culture penalty thing sucks sometimes...

[Oaty]

Excellent Jerome, much needed info. Now I know why that slow growing city of Nepte is so resentful.

Although I wonder if certain faction/barbarian types of buildings have a higher penalty associated with them such as the tavern as I completely overlooked that and noticed all cities with one of these still had a culture penalty after many many years about 50 game yeasr easily. But I noticed some cities were able to maintain those henge stones with no culture penalty after many years

[andrewt]

I have some cities as well where I left the other faction's temples and such and have no more culture penalty.

[Ulstan]

You can definitely take cities that start off at 40% or 30% culture penalty.

"Previously, I've just been using the other culture's buildings and bonuses to train and retrain my troops. No wonder I've been having some issues with public order.."

Yeah. I always knock down the temples/taverns type buildings in the towns I take over and build my own. I usually see a pretty significant decrease in the culture penalty. Things like docks and whatnot appear to be able to stay w/out causing as much trouble.

[Sociopsychoactive]

This is all AFAIK, feel free to disprove me.

Ok, culture penalty max is 50%, thats easy. Some of this SEEMS to dissipate over time.

Some other-culture buildings could be seen as desirable to leave intact (Tavern, odeon ect) BUT I have had a greek city in Julii hands for more than a hundred years, every greek building destroyed or replaced including the governance and farm building, apart from the odeon. The city STILL had a culture penalty of 5% over 50 years later. When in doubt, knock em down.

Culture penalties from governance buildings seems to be approx 20%. This is evidenced by the taking of a city with NO buildings other than the governers house (pre-2000 pop building). The culture penalty at first was 35%, after a few turns of building and settling, it dropped to 20% and has stayed that way for many years. When the governance building is upgraded this vanishes completely.

The destruction of none-roman buildings has no immediate effect on culture penalties, the penalty seems to reduce when the building is replaced by a roman one (or one of the correct culture). It may be that it takes a few turns to take effect however, and that just happens to correspond with the replacing of the building.

Hope this is of use, love the new forum.

[Oaty]

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=38524

That link should help

[Quillan]

I've been going by what Oaty posted for a couple of weeks now, and from what I can tell, it is dead on the money. In a recent campaign I siezed Kydonia on Crete with my Gauls. The culture penalty was 50%, but the only structure in the town was the Governor's House. I spent one turn building a Shrine to Esus, and instantly the culture penalty was 20%. Governor's House-greek, shrine-gallic. A while later, the town hit the 2000 population mark, and the culture penalty was still at 20%, even though by that time I had built all other level 1 buildings I was capable of building. The instant the upgrade to the governor's house was built, the culture penalty was gone. Any other time I have used that formula to figure out the culture penalty, is has been absolutely correct also.

[therother]

This thread has been created from splitting the posts of this thread (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=38089) into two new threads.

You can find the other part here - Unrest Penalties (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=40421).

Thanks.

[RedKnight]

It looks like the basic equation is worked out - great work Oaty, Quillan, therother, and others. It brings a few minor issues itself, though...

1) On the surface, something like a foreign Tavern (5% happiness IIRC) isn't worth it if there are few other buildings, but once you've got a lot of your own culture, it's at least breaking even (+5% building happiness, -5% for having diff. culture building). And eventually, once it's the only "foreign" building left, it may be a simple +5% if the Culture Penalty percent of buildings is rounded down (and disappears).

More precisely, with the equation being "percent foreign" X 30%, 1 out of 6 buildings = .1667 X .3 = 5.0%, so depending which way it rounds, getting down to 1 in 6 (or 1 in 7?) foreign buildings may be enough to cause all CP to go away. Thus, something like the dippy Tavern or Bard house might come into its own, right when you need it - when the city gets really big (and has a lot of buildings). (After the city's had a new "round" to build all new roads, farms, etc.)

We can try to keep an eye out to determine precisely what fraction of foriegn buildings causes CP to disappear, and use that to determine whether to hang onto some of those oddball foreign buildings. (Hopefully CP rounds, and doesn't have a minimum of 5%!!)

2) Conversely, it seems like you can inherit a lot of CP that might never go away if you take cities that are already maximum size. Some things like walls, farms, and roads IIRC (not to mention palace) can't be destroyed; they can only be upgraded. So if you take a max-sized city, you could be stuck with CP even if you raze everything you can and build anew. It all depends on how it rounds, as to how much, though. Perhaps spending some time with the cheats (to switch buildings around) can clarify. Unfortunately, Highways get maxxed out before city size does IIRC, so they can stick you with a little CP that will never go away, even if you get a city before it's gone over the top.

Meanwhile, use the simple rule that it's best to conquer everything very quickly, laugh.