Unrest Public Order Penalties

[therother]

A summary of this thread will appear here shortly.


A few notes: The original first post has been deleted. The important content is quoted below by JeromeGrasdyke.
This thread has been created by splitting this thread (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=38089) into two new threads. You can find the other part here - Culture Penalties (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=40420).

[JeromeGrasdyke]

All right, as far as I can tell from a few fragmented games, you either get an initial 50% Culture penalty when you take an enemy city, or you get none (if you are from the same culture).

Questions:

Is the 50% figure right?
What happens if the city you’ve just taken had yet been to be converted by its previous owner?
Does replacing cultural buildings affect assimilation time?
If so, which buildings? Just the temples or, for example, do Romans have to destroy execution squares as well?
Anyone have any data on the decrease of the Culture penalty.
Any other relevant factors?


The 2nd issue concerns Unrest. I've noticed you get it in cities that you've just conquered and in those that have just revolted. But:

Is it always at the same level?
How does it vary?
Why do you get it in more settled cities?
Can you get it when a city is discontented/disillusioned, but has not yet revolted?
Any other relevant factors?

TIA.

Culture penalty has a maximum of 50%. As a general rule of thumb, the amount is determined by the proportion of buildings in the settlement which have been built by factions of your culture - for example, if you're playing the Julii, and you take over a Greek city which is split 50% between buildings built by the Greeks and the Brutii, you should see something like a 25% culture penalty. Then when you replace the buildings built by the Greeks, the culture penalty disappears. Who last built a building-of-governance has a substantial influence as well.

Turmoil on the other hand has quite a few causes; it includes unrest after a city has changed hands (which dissipates over time), problems due to a Governor's unpleasant habits and a bunch of other things. It can vary quite a bit.

[therother]

Thanks a lot Jerome, very much appreciated. ~:cheers:

[zhuge]

Nice thread but I've noticed that most of the discussion was focussed on Culture penalties and not so much on Unrest. Jerome was kind enough to provide the rough guidelines on it but it makes me wonder what are the specific factors involved (if any).

Being a player, I would like to know if there's any way we can speed up the decline of Unrest over time. Generally it appears that most towns start with 30% Unrest once you take over them and this gradually declines by a constant 5% over each turn. Adjusting tax rate doesn't seem to make much difference and neither does adjusting garrison size. Governors with traits that increase Unrest have the expected effect when they conquer a new city (making the initial Unrest 35%) but that effect immediately goes away once the governor leaves the city.
I have also noticed a couple of towns which start with 45% and 60% Unrest. It rarely happens though. The town which started with 60% Unrest appeared to have a rebellion recently (was previously under Seleucid rule and occupied by a Seleucid governor). Not sure what happened after my diplomat moved away from the place but the next turn when my troops arrived they found an empty town instead, a higher Unrest than normal and the Seleucid governor was nowhere to be seen.

Some players have complained of a permanent 15% Unrest. Is this true and if it is, why is it so and can it be avoided.

[zhuge]

Ok, after reading a few threads and doing a bit of tinkering, I have come to the conclusion that the permanent 15% or 30% Unrest is a particular feature of that unique region to indicate its rebelliousness. I remember this was the case for Scotland in M:TW as well as a few other Spanish provinces so it's not a complete surprise.

Regions which end up with a permanent 15% Unrest, initially start with 45% Unrest when first conquered (that permanent 15% doesn't decay with time though the other 30% does as usual).

Regions which end up with a permanent 30% Unrest, initially start with 60% Unrest when first conquered (that permanent 30% doesn't decay with time though the other 30% does as usual).

I haven't conquered every region in my games, so I will need the help of forum members here to compile a list of towns which have this particular "rebellious" feature to indicate permanent Unrest. Kindly check the list to see if the data here matches the data from your games.

Towns which have permanent 15% Unrest:
Segestica
Salona
Domus Dulcis Domus
Vicus Gothi
Vicus Marcomanii
Mogontiacum
Batavodurum
Damme
Osca
Carthago Nova
Corduba
Tylis
Tanais
Croton

Towns which have permanent 30% Unrest:
Londinium
Tarsus

Towns which have no permanent Unrest:
Porrolissum, Vicus Venedae, Campus Getae, Campus Scythii, Byzantium, Campus Sarmatae, Condate Redonum, Narbo Martius, Aquincum, Lovosice, Iuvavum, Lepcis Magna, Patavium, Mediolanium, Segesta, Trier, Caralis, Massilia, Lugdunum, Alesia, Lemonum, Thessalonica, Bylazora, Campus Iazyges, Cyrene, Capua, Carthage, Thapsus, Lilybaeum, Messana, Tarentum, Apollonia, Larissa, Nicomedia, Ancyra, Sardis, Sinope, Mazaka, Kydonia, Rhodes, Corinth, Athens, Antioch

[therother]

Just a quick question: what faction were you playing?

[zhuge]

The data above is pooled from my 2 games. One as Julii and the other as Greeks. I did not count Arretium and Ariminum as "Towns which have no permanent Unrest" because I started with them in my Julii campaign and my Greeks haven't conquered them yet. The Greeks have taken Capua, Croton and Tarentum though and of these 3, I find Croton exhibits that irritating 15% permanent Unrest.
To tell the truth I haven't really played that much (I tend to play rather slowly) though I do keep extensive saves so I can refer to every turn for each game easily.

In both of my games, Salona and Tylis were saddled with permanent unrest and by comparing data with those in other threads (in this forum and also in the official forums), I also find that Segestica, Tarsus and several other Spanish towns had the same problem every time. The above towns also start with a higher initial Unrest consistently upon being conquered. This led me to make the conclusion above. Would appreciate a few more checks just to be sure but all in all I'm fairly confident this is the reason why permanent Unrest occurs.

[therother]

Thanks for the reply. May I say you've done excellent work: I've checked a few of them, and they all check out.

Odd thing though is that I can't seem to find any "rebellious" factor in the files. Even odder is that one of the new settlements (the Scandiavian one) in the RTR mod has 15% base unrest, so it doesn't seem to be hardcoded for the imperial campaign.

I'll check every single city and list the results here.

Results are in the order of settlements in descr_regions_and_settlement_name_lookup.txt, which seems to be being roughly north to south.

Settlements with 30% base unrest:
Themiskyra
Deva
Londinium
Tarsus
Jerusalem

Settlements with 15% base unrest:
Bordesholm
Domus_Dulcis_Domus
Vicus_Gothi
Batavodurum
Damme
Vicus_Marcomannii
Tanais
Mogontiacum
Segestica
Tylis
Asturica
Salona
Numantia
Osca
Scallabis
Carthago_Nova
Corduba
Palma
Croton
Dumatha
Bostra
Dimmidi
Petra
Nepte

The rest are at 0%.

Note: these penalties only seem to affect factions who are not the default owner listed in descr_regions.txt file. For instance, the Brutii don't suffer the penalty in Croton, but all the other factions will, including the other Romans.

[zhuge]

Thanks for providing a more complete list. I tried to look up this "rebellious" factor as well but also had no luck. Agree that factions who are the default owner do not suffer from the penalties. Tested Londinium with the Britons and had no unrest unlike the Julii who got nailed with 60%.
Also tried with exterminate/enslave/occupy options but this does not seem to have any impact. Also tried on Easy difficulty with the Gauls, taking Londinium, Segestica and Osca. Same results.

Anyway if those who did the RTR mod managed to fix a 15% permanent unrest region then they should know where the data is. I haven't applied the RTR mod nor am I really close with anyone in the RTR modding team, so I think it would be better for someone else to tackle that task.

[RedKnight]

Great work, you two. While I was offing shooting up Halflife 2, it occurred to me that it might be tied to cultures. You two have shown that this isn't really the case, with the exception of starting culture for a given town. Good deal! Sounds like there's a nail in this coffin.
~:cheers:

[therother]

Sounds like there's a nail in this coffin.I'd still like to know why these settlements are chosen. I've had a quick look through the new provinces that the Total Realism guys modded in, and about half of them had the 15%. Still no obvious reason why, although that is a higher percentage than in the vanilla game.

Pulling a few possible reasons out of my magical hat:

There is a easily moddable rebellious factor, but I just can't find it.
There is a (hidden) unrest hidden resource.
It's based on position mentioned in some game file.
It's purely random.
It's based on some indirect factors, e.g. something like the % of forest in the province.

[tommh]

A couple of possibilities:

It's based on the slave resource: these spawn rebels, robbers. Perhaps the number of these in a province is the determining factor?

The RGB value in map_regions.tga?

[therother]

Hi tommh. Thanks for the input.

It's based on the slave resource: these spawn rebels, robbers. Perhaps the number of these in a province is the determining factor?I have always assumed that there was only one per province, usually right next to the city. Will investigate though.


The RGB value in map_regions.tga?Had a quick look, but nothing immediately struck me.

[eadingas]

It seems it's a 'chance of rebellion' in descr_rebel_factions. The Iceni, Amazons, Judaeans, Cilicians and Silurians have 6, some others have 3, and most have 0. This would represent 30%, 15% and 0%.

[tommh]

I'VE CRACKED THE CODE!

the Mona Lisa is a dude in drag!
Oh wait thats a different code. Anyway the unrest figure is directly based on the revolt chance of the rebel faction type.

Amazons chance = 6
Judeans chance =6


Damn! beaten by 13 minutes

[therother]

A huge thank you to both eadingas & tommh! I knew the modders would know this one. :bow:

[therother]

This thread has been created from splitting the posts of this thread (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=38089) into two new threads.

You can find the other part here - Culture Penalties (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=40420).

Thanks.

[Quillan]

It seems it's a 'chance of rebellion' in descr_rebel_factions. The Iceni, Amazons, Judaeans, Cilicians and Silurians have 6, some others have 3, and most have 0. This would represent 30%, 15% and 0%.

DING DING DING! Nice work, you two. I've been wondering about this, myself, since noticing a permanent 30% unrest in Jerusalem. And here I was thinking it was just the Judean People's Front...

[Epistolary Richard]

Great topic. I've made a crude "unrest map" based on the list above, just to have a look how they were distributed.

http://www.geocities.com/epistolaryrichard/unrest.jpg

[Maltz]

Wow great map! Thank you very much. ~:cool:

[Simetrical]

Interesting. The Iberians and Germans seem to be unrestful, but the Gauls are placid by comparison. Then there are the Britons, who are massively rebellious, along with the Jews and the lovely fictitious Amazons—and the inhabitants of Tarsus, strangely.

-Simetrical

[therother]

Thanks for the map, Epistolary Richard. Much appreciated.

:medievalcheers:

[Tamur]

...The Iberians and Germans seem to be unrestful, but the Gauls are placid by comparison...
Good wine and good cheese will do wonders for a society, it seems... ~:) Sorry, OT!

[Epistolary Richard]

I'd be interested to know on what basis the rebelliousness was determined. Did they base it on historical information or for the benefits of gameplay?

Under Roman rule, Britannia can point to the Boudicca revolt, of course, but does that alone warrant the '6' level, and if so shouldn't that be restricted to the Londinium/East Anglia province?

Jerusalem was a hotbed of resistence and Parthia was never really settled by the Romans despite their claims.

But I don't know of any particular issues with the Iberians, the Dalmatian coast or southern Italy (well, not in the ancient period at least).

[eadingas]

Yeah, the Britain unrest is way off. Once conquered, Britons remained quite peaceful for the most part. If anything, it should be Wales and Scotland that have high unrest, not central England... Germania is quite random, as nobody's ever conquered lands like Locus Gothi or Regnum Marcomani, so how would we know if people there are prone to unrest or not?
Good thing it's easily moddable...

[slackker]

so am i right to say that enslavement or extermination doesnt help reduce unrest or culture penalties?

[Maltz]

so am i right to say that enslavement or extermination doesnt help reduce unrest or culture penalties?
You are right. These treatments only help reduce squalor, which is related to the total population, building, and governer.

[Weirwood]

So, what other effect besides PO does unrest have? There are some V&Vs that increase both law and unrest, which would make little sense if the unrest penalties were all negated by the law boni.

I speculate that unrest might affect the spawning of brigands. Does anyone know if there's a text file for brigands like there is for mercenaries?

[Steforian]

Rhegion also seems to have a perm 30% unrest factor.

So could we edit this descr_regions_and_settlement_name_lookup.txt and reduce the permanent unrest? :grin2:

[GigeliusMinimus]

I speculate that unrest might affect the spawning of brigands. Does anyone know if there's a text file for brigands like there is for mercenaries?

From my experience, areas with high unrest will indeed see more rebel spawns. When I played as the Julii I rarely ever had rebels in Italy as the only town with permanent unrest there is Croton. However in Spain and Germany there was a constant flow of rebels. Surprisingly, I had almost no rebel armies in Britain. In some areas where unrest was mild and I was able to counter it with generals who had traits and ancillaries that reduce unrest (many of them made by myself) the rebelling seemed to stop completely. I suspect that rebels might not spawn exactly in the region where unrest is present but might be randomly placed within the neighbor regions as well.


So could we edit this descr_regions_and_settlement_name_lookup.txt and reduce the permanent unrest?

No, that file only affects the names of settlements. To edit the permanent unrest levels you need to edit the rebel factions that are native to each settlement. You can find that out in the descr_regions.txt in data\world\maps\base and you can then edit the rebel factions in descr_rebel_factions.txt in the data folder. Each faction has an attribute called "chance" and next to it you'll find the actual unrest level. For each point, the settlement inhabited by that faction gets 5% unrest apparently.

On a side note, I've noticed that permanent unrest levels don't apply if the settlement is occupied by the native faction of the rebels inhabiting it. For example, if a rebel faction has "//Britons" after it's name in descr_rebel_factions.txt along with a permanent unrest level, the unrest won't be there if Britons occupy one of their settlements. But it will be there if any other faction takes it.

I've only tested this briefly though so it might not be completely accurate. I started as the Britons faction and none of my cities had any unrest. Then I started as Gaul, pumped some money into my treasury by console and bought one of the cities from the Britons and what do you know, the normal unrest bonus I knew was supposed to be there was now present.