Should Japan apologize to Korea

[Demon_Ninja]

The Koreans are still angry over all the rape of they're women.

There are two ways to look at it, the Japanese are way overdue to apologize for there rascist and abusive policies to Korean women. And two, that the current Japanese people do not have the right to apologize for things that they didn't do, ie most of them are two young.

Personally I think the Japanese government should apologize to the Koreans, and teach there kids about WW2.

I don't think there should be any reperations BTW.

[Oda Matsu]

When I was young, my grandfather told me of the Armenian massacre. He described in detail how his entire family was killed by the Turks, and wanted me to promise to kill Turks when I got old enough.

I'm curious, perhaps someone could answer - how many Turks would I need to kill before my grandfather's family would be resurrected? And what sort of stories would the families of these Turks tell their grandchildren?

What a stupid idea. Why ought the "Japanese" apologize to the "Koreans"? Are nations multi-celled organisms? What have Japanese people these days done to the Korean people?

If anyone should apologize to the Korean people, it's Kim Jong Il - for starving half the country, while conspiring to make war on the rest of it. The last famine this little monster caused occured in 1998, but I don't see anyone asking HIM to apologize for anything...

Let alone stand for one decent and honest election. To say nothing of his goon squads. Curious that no one seems to notice him, yet the "comfort women" are front page news.

I'm wondering how much this recent "nostalgia" has to do with North Korean/Chinese activism, and how much it has to do with the recent economic slowdown in the Far East...

[Kurando]

Actually they did formally apoligise in 1998. You can read about it here (http://www.expressindia.com/ie/daily/19981009/28250114p.html).

[Hosakawa Tito]

Thanks for the article Kurando.I believe the Japanese nation still needs to address their actions during that era by teaching their children about it in school.From what I've heard none of the atrocities committed are taught to Japanese school children.Like the old saying,"Those that don't learn from their mistakes are destined to repeat them."
There was an interesting program on the History Channel the other night on this subject called Emperor Hirohito's War.There seems to be evidence that Hirohito knew about,and condoned,many of the atrocities that occured,contrary to what the world was lead to believe during the trials after the Japanese surrender.The US,and the allies,felt they needed Hirohito to stay as Emperor in order to control the Japanese people during the occupation of Japan after WW2,so evidence of his knowledge about what happened was suppressed.General Tojo,and a few others,were made the scapegoats to all the atrocities committed.Only Tojo and one or two other generals were executed for war crimes.Most of the others received jail sentences under 10 years duration.It would be interesting to hear from any of our Dojo members educated in Japan on this subject.

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Diplomacy is the art of telling someone to go to hell so that they look forward to making the trip.

[This message has been edited by Hosakawa Tito (edited 09-04-2001).]

[Demon_Ninja]

Oda,

Who said anything about revenge??

I just mean why is it that they don't teach about Japans atrocities in the schools. We americans hear all about slavery, just like Germans hear about the holocaust, why can't Japanese school children learn about the KOrean comfort women?

[jskirwin@yahoo.com]

I think there's the need to separate the apology issue from the textbooks or history issues.

Japan - or should I say Japanese politicians - have apologized numerous times over Japanese actions during the war. In Japanese they were able to use words and phrases which sounded stronger and more direct in translation to Korean, English and Chinese but which were actually much weaker and tepid in Japanese. Japanese is such a "nuanced" language that the only equivalent we have in English is "women-speak"- ie where women can slice each other to pieces without a man noticing.

However, after 56 years I think that's about as good as you're going to get apology-wise.

As for the history and textbooks though, "gaiatsu" is warranted in these cases - if only for Japanese tourists to understand why people spit at them in Beijing.




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The Buddha is a gyoza. If you find the Buddha, eat him.

[DarthGuru]

Well,
I am a second generation korean. My parents had experienced the pleasures of japanese rule first hand, and have told me many many stories of how brutal and nasty they were. My grandparents went through a lot of pain due to it. Although most of the younger people, haven't forgotten, but they have more or less forgiven the japanese or try to overlook it. The older community on the other hand, still holds much contempt and anger towards them. My parents even refuse to buy most japanese products... Anyways I know they have done many things to our ancestors and more, but they too are a new generation of people by now. I don't feel it would be right to judge them by their ancestors actions as well. But it always does make me sad to ponder upon some of the stories of some of the grotesque things they did to our people.

BTW: Oda you have mixed a bunch of topics that are totally non-related with each other in your attempt to argue. Besides, North Korea, and South Korea are entirely different countries. You shouldn't attack countries without knowing what your talking about. Funny how the Far East becomes one economy.
and also BTW everyone did notice of Kim Il Jung and it did make the front page of most major newpapers at that time.

[Khan7]

Well, my take on it is that the rest of the world has their panties in way too tight a bunch over all this. From what I've observed there are certain very numerous elements in this world that want nothing less than to totally emasculate the Japanese people for all time. My perception is that the Japanese are going to have none of this, which explains many of their tentatively defiant stances so far, and will be the cause of a major revolution in the not-so-distant future. After all, GERMANY got to be an autonomous military power again, and not be spit on by the rest of the world. Japan is headed in the same direction, though due to the self-important attitudes of far too many of their self-proclaimed "victims", they are likely to miss out for a LONG time on the not getting spit on part, at least in many parts of the world.

I predict that Japan is going to get their own high tech military and pretty much tell the moralizing manipulators that have been after them for so long to bugger off, all within the next 50 years. Only then can it start to deal with its past and return to normal.

DISCLAIMER-- this is not intended to downplay the many horrible things they did, or to belittle their ACTUAL victims, i.e. those who were directly victimized not just the descendants who claim some right to all of it. But one can look at it from a different side and all of the innocent Japanese women and children we mercilessly slaughtered with our doomsday bombing raids, even BEFORE Hiroshima and Nagasaki. And one could say the the Japanese were the ultimate and most punished victims of their own cruel policies, as it made it impossible for them to hold on to conquered territories and ultimately cost them the war and many millions of lives.

Not that WE should start apologizing for OUR genocidal bombing policies either. I think its just time for people to acquire some cahones and wake up and smell the fact that it was a brutal war and all sides committed horrible atrocities. It was a war in which stakes were very high and therefore rules of war could not be followed. Admittedly the Nazis, Soviets, and Japanese deviated much much farther from "the rules" than was necessary to facilitate their victory (and in the case of the Nazis and Japanese and *almost* the Soviets they largely brought about their own defeat through these policies), and they should be held accountable in history for that. But we all did horrible things, things which according to most modern moralists are inexcusable.

Sure we beat the Japanese, but we can't hold them down. I don't think they'd have the slightest problem with being more forthcoming if they'd simply get the base level of respect from other nations, and be allowed to go about it with some shred of dignity, which is of course the whole issue I believe. Koreans and Chinese etc. want to make Japan squirm like a worm forever more, which is really the pinnacle of self-absorption.

Oda: Based on what you've said here and elsewhere, I will only submit that if you would perhaps take a step back you would realize that you don't even PRETEND any level of objectivity in political discussions, and are therefore totally and irreconcilably disqualified from debate on such subjects.

Matt

[Koga No Goshi]

I can't address this point to non-Americans, so it only applies to Americans. Perhaps you should concern yourselves less with what Japan should apologize over and focus more on the ongoing omission of huge gaps of American history in our textbooks (actually this applies to Canadians too) of the treatment and involvement of native peoples, and the fact that an apology for atrocities against native peoples is still "being considered" by both governments.



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Koga no Goshi

"Hokusai"
Now as a spirit
I shall roam
the summer fields.

[Devil_Hanzo]

jskirwin: Do people actually spit at Japanese tourists in Beijing, or elsewhere in China?

Khan7: Isn't it a bit exaggerated to say that the Japanese are still being "held down"? When you have an economy as strong as the Japanese, no one can hold you down unless you let them... Maybe I'm wrong here, but do the Japanese even give a flying f*** what the Chinese or Koreans say these days?

When it comes to the military, the Japanese should be glad that their taxes haven't been wasted on weapons. It would be a tragedy if Japan follows in the US' footsteps and becomes obsessed with military "protection".

[DarthGuru]

Yeah,
I agree koga, the things happened here on this land were sad. Native Americans have been subjigated to torture and the loss of their homes. Although this is not the only country in which this happened, it had happened all over the world. But the saddest part is that, the subject has never gotten the recognition it deserves, and a proper apology never given.

[Hosakawa Tito]

Koga I have to disagree with you on the omission of the atroscities committed against native americans in our school textbooks, and on some of the excellent tv channels such as the history channel.My wife is a school teacher so I know this to be true,at least in our local school.We also live right next to the Seneca Indian reservations in western New York,and have many Seneca's go to our local school,so maybe that is why.We have Seneca cultural programs offered at the highschool also.I can only speak for our area of course,I don't know what other areas of the US teach about this regrettable part of our past.If it is not being taught in your area schools,I suggest you contact your school board and ask why.Knowing the truth,good or bad,must be exposed if our future generations are to learn not to repeat these mistakes.That's why it is important for the Japanese government,or any other, to ensure that their schools teach these things.If it is important to your community,as it is to ours,then hold your local school board responsible.Demand that they teach the truth.

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Diplomacy is the art of telling someone to go to hell so that they look forward to making the trip.

[FwSeal]

Kahn7:
'this is not intended to downplay the many horrible things they did, or to belittle their ACTUAL victims, i.e. those who were directly victimized not just the descendants who claim some right to all of it...'

Khan, this didn't happen 150 years ago - it happened 60 years ago. Many ACTUAL victims are very much alive.

'Koreans and Chinese etc. want to make Japan squirm like a worm forever more, which is really the pinnacle of self-absorption.'

If being bitter over an occuption that cost millions of lives in China (to say nothing of the treatment of occupied Korea) is 'self-absorption'... We Americans ought to just count ourselves lucky that we are not IN a position to decide whether or not to forgive the sorts of things the Chinese and Koreans went through. That very fact may as well disqualify both of us from discussing the matter.
I have a great deal of respect for Japan - I wouldn't have spent so much time on its history if I didn't - but I also have a great deal of sympathy for the Chinese and Koreans.

[Kurando]

FwS;

Can you talk a bit about the cultural differences between the connotations of apologizing in our society as opposed to the connotations of apologizing in Japanese society?

I remember vividly when Japan offered that formal apology in 1998 that there was much said about how the Japanese view and conceptually interpret the concept of apology in a completely different manner than most westerners do.

I know that this is a complex question, but please give it a try; I've always been interested in what Japan actually intended to convey/represent with it's apology, and what forces in the Japanese psyche motivated it.

[Winkel]

I think it would be a smart thing for the Japanese to come up with a formal appology towards Korea and China and even more importantly to reevaluate their history text books.

In Germany this has been done: I would reckon that a great majority of Germans today consider the attrocities by the Nazis to be a terrible crime and a historical burden, they have to face. Great emphasis is put on not forgetting this past and what led to these sad events. There are several memorials showing the events leading to the Third Reich and frequent TV programs on the matter. IMO this is an important factor for Germany being accepted as a leading partner in the EU. The relationship between Germany and France as well as Russia are sound.

On the other hand my personal experience in Japan was quite different: there seems to be not much more concern about WW2 beyond the point that the Japanese lost this war and have now vowed never to engage in warfare again. In fact one elder Japanese person, thinking that I was German, once pointed out to me that it was a shame, that the Germans messed things up at Stalingrad as otherwise together we would have turned this thing around. Of course, not too much weight should be given to single events, however, I did not meet anyone in Japan, who felt any kind of remorse for the events of WW2 and the attrocities committed by the Japanese then.

[jskirwin@yahoo.com]

Devil
Members of a tour group one of my students was with in Beijing had some trouble with the locals, including being spit upon and called names. She was floored because she hadn't expected such animosity from the Chinese. Having known the complete history of the Japanese occupation of China, she might have had a better understanding of such things. Having known about America's support of the military regime in Korea until 1988 helped me understand similar trouble I've had in that country.

I'm not keen on apologies or reparations for that matter. However I am all for full, complete and honest disclosure of the past. The Ministry of Education is playing games with the textbooks; everybody knows it, and it's just another example of how the ministries in Japan remain the true obstacle to reform of any type there. The truth should come out and be read by everyone. Just because the Rape of Nanking is shown in its complete brutality should not make a Japanese hate their nation in the same way that the My Lai massacre does not make me hate the USA. Such evil actions serve to temper one's patriotism, not destroy it.

As for the truth of the genocide of the Indians... In the 1970s we were reading about the "Trail of Tears", and in high school in the 1980s we read about the Ghost Dance massacres of the 1880s against the Lakota. That's the way it was in Catholic school in St.Louis.

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The Buddha is a gyoza. If you find the Buddha, eat him.

[DarthGuru]

Hosakawa: That's good that there is such recognition in your area for the crimes committed against the natives of this land. Out here in the west coast, there doesn't seem to be much sympathy. It is rare to see any natives, because they have either been shipped off to the reservations, or completely wiped out. I've only met one native before, and that was in a Gambling Casino on a reservation, in which you rarely see natives as well. As for school programs, I'm not sure what they teach now. But when I was in high school, about 5-8 years ago, the only thing we really learn about the annexation of the natives, is the trail of tears. Other than that, not much lite was shed on the subject. Sad...

Kurando: Perhaps you could explain to me about the Japanese views on apology. I remember hearing about the formal apology and asking my parents about it, in which they just laughed.

Khan7: I don't think you fully understand what happened here. It seems as if you have been sheltered and know only what the government wants you to know, probably thanks to public schooling. But you are missing the point in why the Japanese were stripped of all military power in the first place. I'm not saying the Americans were ever righteous in bombing them or putting japanese in their own camps.
Quote It was a war in which stakes were very high and therefore rules of war could not be followed. [/QUOTE] This statement can prove it all. Japanese invasion of korea happened way before the war, and the Koreans and parts of china were under their horrid rule for many many years before WW2 even started. Korea was not a militant country and never really was. If you knew of the way they came in under the flag of peace, plotted, and then assasinated our royal family, youd have different views as well. Plus How can you say Germans wiping out the Jewish population is gonna help the war at all??? Its just Hitler's psychotic plan of having an aryan nation. These people knew what they were doing, and if you can't tell, it had nothing to do to help the outcome of the war.

This is still a touchy subject for most Koreans and Chinese mainly, because yes it wasnt 100s of years ago, and we still have living witnesses of these acts. Hell, I have heard of so many stories first hand, that even my views toward that Japanese are probably tarnished. But I still believe that they shouldn't be held responsible for what their ancestors did. I know this subject will never get the attention it deserves and probably 75% of the world population doesn't even know or care about anything that happened there, other than they were occupied during the war. But sometimes I think it would be better this way, and hope it will be more easily forgotten.

[FwSeal]

I'm not sure I'm qualified to give any sort of an informed opinion on that score, K (not being Japanese). I can only hazard a general estimation, based on my own experience with Japan and the Japanese.
The Japanese apology is indeed a little different from our own (as everyone heard during the fishing boat/submarine affair). An apology has to be deeply sincere. Face is usually assumed to play a role in this, but we superimpose our own ideas of 'face' in the equation. A true apology is, for lack of a better word, a show of manliness: you have the courage to admit you've done wrong, and feel a genuine sorrow over what has occured. In other words, you're man (or woman) enough to admit when you've done wrong, and human enough to feel real sadness over the event. This, I think, trips up some Americans when they apologize. We're very concerned about face (so many seem to think of 'face' as an Asian affair, IE, China has to save face, the Japanese have to safe face - when 'face' is a universal condition). Many of us think that too deep an apology is a show of weakness. How many times does one hear 'I'm really sorry about what happened, but you have to understand...'. My impression was that the Japanese were a bit put off by the US stance on the sinking of the boat in this respect - that we wished it hadn't occured, but didn't actually feel as if we had done something 'wrong', that it was an accident, and S**t happens... The vague and self-protective Firestone apologies are a good case in point: they don't want to ADMIT they were in the wrong, but they do WISH the deaths hadn't occured, etc...
Of course, the Japanese are not immune to this; the Korean apology was a notable one. Some of the others were quite a bit like the sort of apology that the Japanese didn't want to hear from us this spring - 'well, yes, we did screw up. Sorry about that...'
I guess I'm no longer making any sense, so I'll give up now... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[Demon_Ninja]

Let me put it this way, if the japanese were white, you would have Jessie Jackson and the NAACP chaining themselves to the doors of the Japanese embassy.

The fact is the Japanese do not teach about atrocities in there text books. MY text books in highschool(I'm american btw) talked extensively about, Slavery and the INdian persecutions.

[Kurando]

Thanks FwS, I think you were in a better position to answer that because you aren't Japanese. I was interested in a comparison of the two ways of thinking more than anything, and you are definitely qualified to provide that.

[Khan7]

DarthGuru-- Evidently you only skimmed my post. Without going back and checking specifically, I can guarantee you that I stated clearly and unequivocally AT LEAST twice that the cruel policies of the Germans, Soviets, and Japanese COST them the war. For instance, the Japanese cruelties made it essentially impossible for them to control any of the territories they had conquered. If they had had some SCRUPLES, been less overpoweringly FORCEFUL, and been BENEVOLENT conquerors with a health respect for international politics, the Japanese empire might still be around in some form even today.

Instead they screwed up BAD. Pardon me if I failed to clearly mention this, as the main purpose of my previous post was to give what I perceive to be the Japanese perspective on all this. They are a sovereign nation with a rapidly dwindling number of war veterans, and they feel that no FOREIGN POWERS should have the right to dictate how they deal with their past. I would have to sympathize with them GREATLY on this point, especially as, if you have noticed, pressures like this have a frightening tendency to snowball if you cave in too easy.

Not that they should not MOST DEFINITELY teach about Japanese history, but it is their own gd business when and how they want to go about it (I believe this to be the core of the issue, at least for the Japs).

Now to return to the thing with the American Indians-- do you think there was ANY teaching about US atrocities 60 years after the fact? If you think so, you are smoking something weird man. It only became a real issue in the 70s with the Wounded Knee standoff (though you can correct me if I'm wrong on the particular dating here). I myself have something like 1/8 Cherokee blood in me, and this summer I was up visiting my older brother (much older), who has joined the Abenaki tribe in Vermont and married an Abenaki woman. While up at his place (in a very beautiful, still quite wild area of Vermont), we did a bit of hiking around, and I was told about how back when the area was first being settled, the Indians had used a trail somewhere near where we were to travel from around where we were down to the lake a few miles away to fish. One day the settlers lay in ambush for them and wiped out every last one of them, man woman and child, on the return trip.

In the celebratory Centennial booklet, published somewhere in the teens I believe, they displayed with great pride and celebration that date, when they had gotten rid of them no good injuns.

But I really must note that I have never noticed a real neglect of education in this subject nowadays. I was, in the private school I attended through 8th grade, very well educated in the horrid atrocities that were committed. I noticed no change in the frequency or serious treatment of the subject in public high school either, it was a subject to which was devoted a relatively large amount of time. I, like Hosokawa, am perhaps better qualified to comment on the CURRENT state of education in this area (just this year I will finish high school).

Again, Darthguru-- I won't hold any grudges about your calling me sheltered and ignorant, but I will only submit that it would seem that one who barely skims over things he makes serious statements about should perhaps not be talking :-)

Matt

[DarthGuru]

FwSeal: Yes I think I understand now that the Japanese or Easterns in general have a deeper meaning in their apology. But it can still be taken many ways. And also I think apologies are used differently in politics then in any normal situation and in any country. You explained yourself about the sinking boat incident, how they didn't believe it was their fault but they are sorry for the people that died. Or the people should have never died in the first place. Well I'm skewing from the point as well, but I do believe that the Japanese apology to Korea and China was a sincere one. Yet most of the elders will never forgive them, I believe that most the younger generations either forgave or doesn't care about what had happened.

Khan7: wow, touchy arent we... For saying that, you should not be skimming over my posts as well. Because in your main arguement, of me not fully reading your post, I already said didn't mattered!!!! Pretty much my whole post is explaining why it didnt matter!!! And if you look closely I wasn't even referring to your entire post. I read over your post well, and did agree with you on some points, but I thought you were wrong on some or most. If you actually read my post you would have noticed that I only brought up one of the topics to argue. I don't understand why people get so defensive around here... Anyways I never called you ignorant, but sheltered, there is a great big difference. Which is true because you are making statements for the japanese, but how would you ever know what they are thinking? Just by reading a couple of your arguements it was made even more clear, because they had done just the opposite. Anyways, isn't it funny how you think someone is doing something, but you realize your the one whose doing it (or in this case not doing it) You need to read over my past post again, because showing in your follow up post, you had no idea what I was talking about.
PS why would I care if you hold a grudge on me? I dont know you. I was just making my opinion, if you disagree so be it, and besides grudges are for girls.

[Khan7]

>>>>
"Admittedly the Nazis, Soviets, and Japanese deviated much much farther from "the rules" than was necessary to facilitate their victory (and in the case of the Nazis and Japanese and *almost* the Soviets they largely brought about their own defeat through these policies), and they should be held accountable in history for that. But we all did horrible things, things which according to most modern moralists are inexcusable."
>>>>

"Plus How can you say Germans wiping out the Jewish population is gonna help the war at all??? Its just Hitler's psychotic plan of having an aryan nation. These people knew what they were doing, and if you can't tell, it had nothing to do to help the outcome of the war."
>>>>

Okay, if you actaully read my post and agreed with some of my points, then how come you're here lecturing me with a point I already agree with? The proof is in those quotes.

Also, calling people sheltered without really having either the wisdom or the even the specific knowledge of the situation to discern such a thing, or even WITH those things, and using it as an argument in your favor, is bad taste. I could easily, based on your general tone and attitude and certain things you've said discern that you are almost definitely a young 'un, but I won't try to use that to discredit what you say, nor will I make a point of it except in this example.

Anyway, 'nuf said about that I think.

Matt

P.S.: I am giving, and I quote "..what I PERCIEVE to be the Japanese perspective..". Did I ever say I really knew or was particularly qualified to comment in this particular area? I just watch a great deal of news and read a helluva lot of history, so I get a sense of these things that is sometimes dead wrong but is often somewhat uncanny. Again, you are free to disagree, but I think I think I make a pretty good point.

[DarthGuru]

I never said you didn't make a good point. Otherwise I wouldn't even bother to argue it. I think youve read my post again, yes? But it seems you still don't understand my whole point. You say we are agreeing on the very point im trying to argue against. Here I'll put it out easier for you...
this is what you said
Quote I can guarantee you that I stated clearly and unequivocally AT LEAST twice that the cruel policies of the Germans, Soviets, and Japanese COST them the war. [/QUOTE]
now this is what is said
Quote These people knew what they were doing, and if you can't tell, it had nothing to do to help the outcome of the war. [/QUOTE]

does this look like we agree? The only thing we agreed on in those two quotes you put, is that the Germans and Japanese did horrible things. As for the sheltered thing, I apologize, I just didn't think you'd be so touchy about it (I didn't know it was such a harsh word, but I guess it is). I was just percieving your persepective, as you were percieving the Japanese perspective. But mainly I know I shouldn't have called you sheltered and I apologize for saying it.
Quote Did I ever say I really knew or was particularly qualified to comment in this particular area? [/QUOTE]
then how can you argue a point for them so strongly?? This is a more than touchy subject for my race, but you are just blabbing this and that for the Japanese, half are which are totally off, and then you come out saying this statement?? You contradict yourself many times. This quote can describe it better than pointing out every instance:
Quote based on your general tone and attitude and certain things you've said discern that you are almost definitely a young 'un, but I won't try to use that to discredit what you say, nor will I make a point of it except in this example.[/QUOTE]
LoL you just did! anyways I'm not a young 'un as you might percieve, I just have a strong opinion, and will not stand down easily, if I think I'm right. Don't worry because I don't hold grudges, but you really should read more carefully. Especially if your gonna accuse someone else of reading carefully.

[Koga No Goshi]

Quote Originally posted by Demon_Ninja:
The fact is the Japanese do not teach about atrocities in there text books. MY text books in highschool(I'm american btw) talked extensively about, Slavery and the INdian persecutions.[/QUOTE]

Demon, if that's true then maybe times have changed very recently, because I was in high school only four years ago and this was not the case. There was one chapter in a 65-chapter book about slavery and only "oh by the way" side notes about skirmishes or battles with Native Americans, or major treaties signed. Native Americans tended to be mentioned only insofar as how much they were helping or hindering white issues such as the French and Indian War.

As far as "extensively mentioned"... I think most high school students in America would say slavery and wrongs against Native Americans are "extensively mentioned" in their history classes regardless of the accuracy of their textbooks... I think in many cases "extensively mentioned" can be interpreted as "we're reminded of things we don't like to hear more often than we'd like." That isn't to say entire history books should be about the wrongs of the U.S. military. But it is to say that even so much as 1/2 of one class period a semester being devoted to talking about America's treatment of Native Americans could be called "extensive mentioning" by some.

However, I've met disconcertingly few high school students who, even while in an American History class with the information fresh in their mind, could tell me about the Sand Creek Massacre, could tell me any detailed information whatsoever about how the United States acquired the state of Hawaii, or could tell me the story of Wounded Knee. All three of these events were major major historical events marginalized or left completely out of American history texts.

To Hosokawa... again, I haven't seen textbooks in your area, but only after taking devoted Native American History courses and a Hawaiian History course in college did I see how HUGE the disparity is between how much happened and how much most Americans THINK happened because of what information they receive from white histories and TV documentaries. In other words, until you see how much is left out, you have no way of knowing how much is left out.




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Koga no Goshi

"Hokusai"
Now as a spirit
I shall roam
the summer fields.

[Momotaro Asakura]

It amazes me that every year the issue of textbooks here in Japan surfaces without fail. Why should the Japanese mention at all what happened ?
What difference would it make to the young students in Japanese High Schools of today to learn of their WW2 history?
Probably very little I would guess. They are so removed and different than the teenagers of 50 years ago.

[Hosakawa Tito]

Koga in my area of western New York,the Native Americans of the Iroquois Confederacy
has been embroiled in land dispute cases,and tax cases with the State of New York for many years now.The Senecas are just one of 6 tribes that make up this confederacy.If I remember correctly the Iroquois never lost,militarily speaking anyway,to the European peoples that took their land.They were too smart to try and fight,knowing they weren't going to win.In fact they "sold" land in the Ohio valley area to whites that they had no control over,politically they were and are very intelligent people.Currently, New York State is in court over "shady" land deals they pulled on the Iroquois,some court cases the State has already lost.The State has also been trying to make the Nation collect taxes on gasoline and cigarette sales to non-Indians at their stores.So far the State has been stymied in their assault on the Nation's sovereignity.The Iroquois are making millions in sales of these items,have put most of the non-indian owners of these type businesses out of business.Of course the State would love to get their grasping hands on this tax revenue.
It's ironic that 30 years ago when the only business the Indians had were trinket shops that barely made any money at all,the State wasn't worried about collecting taxes from sales to non-indians then,but now they want to because of the amount of money involved.
Personally,I say leave them alone,honor the treaties that were signed.
Any way the point I'm trying to make is that compared to how Japan has been "forgetting"to inform their people about the unsavory events of WW2,the US has been more forthcoming of some of our "dirty laundry",at least recently.Could we do much better?Without a doubt we could and should.That's where concerned people,such as yourself,come in.You've taken it upon yourself to dig deeper into these issues and educate yourself about what went on.Are there political groups that want to suppress these issues?You better believe it,but changes in education are coming,slow but sure.People must get involved at the local level to bring these changes about.

------------------
Diplomacy is the art of telling someone to go to hell so that they look forward to making the trip.

[Khan7]

First to DarthGuru: I owe a bit of an apology on a couple spots. First of all, when you said "..had nothing to do to help the outcome of the war..", it looked as if you meant "..didn't help the Nazis and Japs win the war..", not what u evidently meant: "..had no effect on the outcome of the war..". I am guessing your english is not perfect, which is totally fine by me, it's just that's why we had that misunderstanding.

I also must admit that now I understand your strong reaction to what I said. Your family personally had experiences with this, so it is a touchy subject. If I had said anything that was actually BAD, I can be assured you probably would have strangled me with your bare hands :-) I understand your perspective.

I can only say that though I deeply respect where you are coming from, that I probably have a more *objective* view of this, as I am primarily an American Patriot, which means that if anything I should be ANTI-Japanese, and talking about dirty Tojos etc etc. (which btw I don't). It's just that I have studied this situation and many other situations, and I *think* that I have a decent handle on what's going on. I understand how you would be reflexively offended by some of the stuff I say, but it would be *constructive* if you would factually and logically attack my statements.

Anyway, no hard feelings, always good to have differing viewpoints :-P

Matt

[Koga No Goshi]

Whoa,

Khan is impressing me lately. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

G'job man, nicely written I think.



------------------
Koga no Goshi

"Hokusai"
Now as a spirit
I shall roam
the summer fields.

[Khan7]

Alright Koga, let me ask you a question-- Just how knowledgeable do you think the average american highschooler is? Is the correct answer:

(a) fairly competent and knowledgeable
(b) barely competent and knowledgeable
(c) "*duuuuhhhhh* whu da heck is jeowg wushintun"

And the correct answer is.. *ding ding ding ding ding* **C**!!!!

So basically the fact that few highschoolers you've talked to that were taking Mod. Am. Hist.-- which btw is usu. freshman year, which makes matters even WORSE-- knew about any of that stuff is TOTALLY IRRELEVANT! They could've been lectured for 2 hours on it the same day and they wouldn't care enough to remember any of it! (ok ok I'm exagerrating a bit here, but I'm serious! highschoolers are ignorant morons!).

Anyway, MY Mod. Am. Hist. course started off right after the Civil War, but I came in 6 weeks late so I don't know how the Indians were dealt with. I can say honestly that knowing the teacher personally he is an amazingly knowledgeable man and a man of conscience, so I can't imagine such things not being covered. But by the time I got there, we were already up to the turn of the century (i.e. all the major indian events were essentially finished), so I can't testify really (and no big loss to me I was EXTENSIVELY both educated both by my teachers and on my own throughout private elementary and middle school about this stuff).

My sophomore year, with World History, we had a hippie teacher so we were VERY aware of what had gone on, and were frequently preached to about how great animist phiolosophy is :-P Again, I think it has to do with the teacher being knowledgeable and of conscience. I will admit that such events are often dumbed down in the textbooks. I think the issues are so popular now though that the textbook is not really an obstacle unless you are dealing with a truly mediocre teacher.

Anyway, I can tell you that I for sure as hell know about it in detail, being an inquisitive person and having both Indian blood and very close Indian kin. And I doubt you'd find ANY highschoolers that wouldn't be aware that "we screwed the indians bad", that stuff is just too much in the schools and popular media nowadays that they wouldn't pick it up and have it stick to some degree.

And finally to Hosokawa: I know this isn't relevant to what you were saying, but I will repeat the point that until the second Wounded Knee in the 70s it was still cowboys and injuns and no one really knew about the stuff or was sensitive to it. That's about an 80-year gap between the last prominent atrocities against Indians. So lets give the Japs a little more time, if we are going to hold them to OUR golden standard :-)

Matt

[Khan7]

One more comment: I must agree that the majority of Americans don't know about the EXTENT or the full HORROR of the atrocities against the Indians, but they are aware that we were bungholes. It's basically the same that the majority of Americans have no idea about the Soviet rape of Germany or Japanese atrocities vs. China.

Matt

[DarthGuru]

Khan: I thank you for the last post. I know I was quick to jump to conclusions and quick to judge, and I apologize again. I just couldn't really see where you were coming from and why. Anyways I'm glad everything was cleared up, although I don't understand why you had to throw in a couple more punches. "factually and logically"? I thought I did, are those not facts I used in our main arguements, maybe I'm just not logical. Well I guess thats a matter of differing opinions again. Either way it was good and soothing to read most of your post http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif I thank you, and apologize. Hopefully now we can get back to the more stimulating and constructive, or at least i'll try to be http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif , conversation.

[Koga No Goshi]

Vanger,

I am very glad to hear you describe your teachers as "knowledgeable and have a conscience." I knew way too many people who had gym coaches sit in as history teachers because the school was too cheap or didn't have the money to hire someone who knew a thing about the subject. My school was much better than most in that regard, but it was AP History, which means it had to cover stuff that would be on the AP test, which more or less ruled out any detailed info about Native Americans except for major major treaties and battles.

At any rate, the issue isn't really so much whether or not people are generally aware we screwed the Indians. (Although plenty of hardcore conservative/nationalist and racist types will still lie through their teeth about it, I think deep down they know better, they'd have to be complete imbeciles not to). The issue is that while on the one hand most Americans are at least vaguely aware that we treated the Indians dishonorably, they will belligerently sing a different tune when it comes to the US and State Governments having to comply with treaty-promised rights and laws, such as reserved fishing and hunting grounds, farm subsidies, water rights, and the right to run tax-exempt businesses on reservation land. THEN all of a sudden (when $$$ is involved) Americans start the "why do we have to pay for what happened in the past, blah blah blah, it's not fair" crap. The thing that makes the rights of Native Americans unique is that they NEVER relinquished their sovereignty.. EVER. And that sovereignty is, at least in the eyes of the law and in the books, still in existence TODAY and sanctioned by those legally binding treaties. So in other words, they are not just another ethnic minority claiming being treated badly. They are the remnants of nations totally separate from the United States who in exchange for submitting to Federal authority and going to the reservations were promised certain things *for all time*. This point is what most Americans are ignorant of, either by circumstance or by choice. Considering that Senator Inouye's Senate Committee on Indian Affairs came back with a report that of the more than 500 treaties signed by the Federal Government, not a single one was fully honored by the Government, the least we can do is fulfill our treaty obligations that Congress has seen fit to keep at least partially honoring. But since paltry sums of money (in the big picture) are involved in that, there are and always will be Americans saying "no! It's not fair! Blah blah"...

Money counts more than honor I guess.



------------------
Koga no Goshi

"Hokusai"
Now as a spirit
I shall roam
the summer fields.

[Gothmog]

Seriously I am glad that the vast majority of this forum can actually tell what's right from what's wrong. Forgive me for expressing my strong feeling.

I grew up in a harbor city in china. Where, sigh, Japanese anhilated almost the entire population after they won the war against Russian. yeah, those who read history books (not published by Japan of course) will know which war I am talking about. For Japanese, it's glory; for Russian, it's military defeat; but what about those helpless Chinese civilian?

The truth is, Japanese goverment has been trying so damn hard to alter/twist the truth, telling lies after lies in their textbook. Even tried to picture Japanese as the victum in WWII. I found it disgusting. Come on, at least have the gut to admit what you people have done.

I am not talking about revenge or race hatred, but we all need to learn lessons from the past.

[This message has been edited by Gothmog (edited 09-07-2001).]

[Khan7]

Koga-- you make a good point. In that light, it now seems to me that we DO need to educate our people more fully in such matters. Not only would it be a grave dishonor if the money-grubbers got their way, it would be robbing us of culture and knowledge (YES! knowledge. I, one of the most skeptical people I know, firmly believe that these new-fangled types still have a lot to learn from the age-old wisdom of the Indians!) which is being lost at alarming rates anyway. I think you were really right on from the beginning.

Darthguru: I was simply saying that I think it would be very interesting to discuss/debate certain things you found wrong with what I said, for instance-- you seem to think that Axis atrocities had no effect on the outcome of the war. I think they do, and I have given my reasons-- in short, that it is historical fact that Japanese cruelty made them ENORMOUSLY (to put it lightly) unpopular with the populations they conquered, and was the primary cause of every single resistance/guerrilla movement that severely hampered their efforts to harvest resources from and defend their territory. In fact, many of the peoples they conquered initially greeted them as saviors from Western Imperialism, but that attitude changed quickly when their women started getting raped and their people were dragged out in the street and shot. The Japanese, through their cruel traditions of conquering developed during their Civil Wars, essentially defeated themselves, just as they did when they attempted to invade Korea in the late 1500s.

The situation was similar with the German conquest of eastern Europe-- they were welcomed as liberators by many of the peoples there who had been chafing under Soviet oppression. But when they started deporting, burning and slaughtering, the attitude of the populace changed dramatically, and the Nazis lost a valuable ally that came complete with resources and infrastructure.

Did you miss some of the points that people tried to make earlier in this thread, Gothmog? One of them was that WE, the US of A, were still jumping up and down with glee upon the murdered corpses of Indian women and children 60 years after the fact. If you are to condemn Japan, you must first condemn your own country.

Matt

[DarthGuru]

Khan: Ahhh well I see your point in where it would be hard to get resources out of newly conquered territories. But I still believe either way they would have lost. Many things accounted for this, and in my beliefs this may have been one, but not close to the major reasons in them losing. The crimes against humanity committed by the Axis resulted in the strict actions the Allies took against them after the war. i.e. Japan losing all rights to hold any military power. It is true if Japan had any chance of succeeding it was to make quick strategic hits, in which they did, in the beginning at least. They could not afford in money and troops, the long war. Of course its a fact that anybody recently conquered is not gonna be happy with the change. And I have no idea where you got your sources and the idea where they were happy to be conquered. Korea including china, had fought to keep their land from being taken over by japanese forces. In fact in order to fully take control of Korea, they had to dispatch an group of ninjas and take out the entire royal family, because of the constant lack of progression in negotiations. Japan had used deciet and had tricked Korean and Chinese governments in their primal intentions in landing their troops, but don't get that mixed up with welcoming them.
The Germans on the other hand, probably made a difference with their mass genocides. Which caused them lots of money and manpower. Although they were able to use them as slaves, in the long run it cost the Germans more, most likely. Also since europe is all connected, the popularity of doing this probably caused a lot of inner discontent.

Gothmog: How do you know that the japanese teach that in their books? I do know that they have tried to make themselves the victims in WW2 in which they were, if you look at the A-bombs. But I do think they realize what they have done, but they are reluctant to teach it to their younger generations, just like here in USA.

Koga: I also agree with you. I'm sure most people that the Natives were jacked out of their land and rights, but not to a great extent. Maybe if they were educated better, or just plainly made more aware of the certain things that happened, and roughly that we took away their right to have any bright future as a race, maybe they would actually shell out the money to fulfill these treaties. I remember about two years ago, there was a bill passed, having to do with gambling in indian reservations. It had something to do with the right of the owners of these casinos, which were the natives, to tax on each deal made inside, or more commonly known as antie. Anyways I remember watching commercials, and these natives were begging us not to let it pass, because it would just makes them lose more money and any sort of power in the long run. I'm not sure how authentic it was, or how much affect it had on their people, but either way the bill had passed and they had lost again.

[theforce]

Since l am too bored to read all the posts 2:15 in the morning here someone else might have said this and you might even know it but here it goes. A martial arts school in Korea(TAE-KNOW-DO)99% cut a finger of their hand because the Japanese Prime MInister or president(whatever he is) visited Korea.
Well Korea tried to invade Japan along with Khan many of years ago.
We have the same thing here (Greeks-Turks). The elders hold much anger in them and they told us things that in a way grow hate towards them. I think though that in each side younger people do not care of what the elders did.

------------------
Don't use only honour, use theforce, too.
http://lod.fateback.com

[Khan7]

Ah, Darthguru, but you truly underestimate both the advantages of having happy subjects, and the disadvantages of having thousands upon thousands of greasy little men running around in the shadows putting bullets in the heads of your soldiers and robbing and blowing your supply trains and depots to bits.

I know for a fact that the Japanese WERE greeted in MANY of the places they conquered, and why not? Many of these places had been under parasitic European rule for decades. The Japanese were (a) Asian in location, (b) Asian in appearance, (c) a change from an unacceptable situation, and (d) had just kicked the butts of the hated European oppressors. Even in places where they may not have been initially welcomed, though I can't think of ANY place where they would not have been able to drum up a sizeable contingent of popular support right off the bat if they'd done it right, if they had been somewhat fair and benevolent they would have won over AT THE VERY LEAST the complacence of most of the conquered peoples.

//EDIT: The Japanese also saw themselves as liberators.. of course their long history of isolation and the resultant lack of experience with the REAL world sort of messed up their delivery in this area. Their concepts of right and wrong in war all came from their own civil wars, but of course those concepts didn't exactly wash with the rest of the world.//

But through their cruel acts, the Japanese, with their own resources and manpower, both recruited and equipped hundreds of thousands of guerrilla fighters and resistors, and left only the more simple tasks of training and organizing to instigators like Mao Tse Tung.

In contrast, if they had handled themselves in a way to take advantage of discontent with former rulers and a desire for competent government of the people they conquered, they could have in short order had a manageable and reasonably efficient empire. Obviously some peoples were much happier to see them than others, but they could have accomplished, at the very least, a good level of manageability across the board.

EDIT// This very possibly could have solved their manpower problem, as if they were able to take advantage of the enthusiastic greeting of some of those they conquered, they could have recruited from those regions.//

Instead they were caught up wasting manpower and resources fighting rebels, imposing sever martial law which in turn led to more wasted resources and manpower fighting rebels, which led to MORE severe martial law and well.. you get the picture. You talk about how they didn't have the resources or manpower for the long war. Ever wonder WHY?? Could it have had something to do with the fact that they were constantly fighting to hold on to every square inch of occupied ground, even with the Allied armies still thousands of miles away?

Of course all of this necessarily brings us to a very significant point-- if the Japanese had simply been content with Korea and Manchuria, and not embarked on a totally hopeless attempt to conquer all of China, then the US and other Western powers would never have gotten involved until it was too late, and Japan would have been able to concentrate resources on DOable tasks. It was Japanese agression in China that directly led to conflicts between Japan and the West, which led to the US cutting off Japan's oil supply and freezing its assets, which led to the war. If Japan had just been a bit more politic, it could have gone on with a gradual and healthy pace of expansion, all the while being supplied by those who would have been its dire enemies in case of war.

And, considering that the US did not become fully involved in EITHER theater of war until Pearl Harbor, one could say that the Japanese cost both themselves and the Nazis victory. Of course the Nazis had already blundered greatly up to that point, and even still could have easily won even after all this AND the US entry, but WITHOUT US entry, the outcome in favor of the allies was much more in doubt.

Anyway, I hope this makes more clear my reasoning in saying that Japanese cruelty quite literally cost them their empire, both in bringing them to war with the Western powers and essentially precluding them from winning that war.

Matt

[This message has been edited by Khan7 (edited 09-08-2001).]

[DarthGuru]

Yes that was a well thought out explanation to your ideas. And I do agree with most of it. Indirectly it led to the fall of their Empire. But indirectly everything can be the cause of everything else, like you were explaining in your ladder of events. Also, I know that, of course, there's a huge difference between content citizens, to revolting mobs, but when are people usually happy to be conquered? The only thing I still don't really understand in your arguement is where were the Japanese welcomed. Perhaps you are talking about the islands, I'm not sure. Because I know for a fact this wasnt the case in China, and definately not the case in Korea, their main holds in Asia.

[This message has been edited by DarthGuru (edited 09-08-2001).]

[Koga No Goshi]

Short rant on casinos.

The Indian Nations never should have even had to take their right to have casino businesses on their own lands to public American vote. That was the political clout of Las Vegas at work out to protect their profits and turning some politicians onto the issue. The whole thing was as ridiculous as Canada or England having to ask the permission of the US voters to open bars or have carnivals. It's ridiculous.
Plus, of course, the media pumped up the image that Native Americans were just lapping up the luxury because of these casinos. I have personally worked with statistics regarding what tribes have done with the flush of income they get from gaming (mind you, not all tribes are gaming tribes and many, such as the Navajo Nation, have refused to go into gaming because they don't want thousands of washichu flooding onto their reservation! So it's not all about money.) Back on the subject... the reservations are using the money primarily to open cultural centers, museums (which no one cared to fund and the Indians themselves had no money for before) as well as replacing FEDERALLY RUN AND FUNDED SCHOOLS AND MEDICAL FACILITIES with Indian run and funded ones! So you see voting against Indian gaming is ridiculous, cause the money you "save" by taxing it would just go into unnecessary expenditures which the Indians could pay for themselves if they were allowed to have gaming on their land. The dividends to individual tribal members, which the media makes out to be obscene amounts like millions, actually averages out to about $200-$400 per month to each member, and that's in the smaller tribes I looked at where there were fewer people to spread the money among. Now, I know the economy is down but $200 a month is not buying you a mansion or a luxury car. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif And if you live on the res, it's probably just going to pay for things most people take for granted, like paying your water bill or buying your kids shoes. Seriously. So it's a win-win situation, Indians get to save their culture, run their own schools and hospitals, employ their own members (reducing unemployment) and gather capital to open new self-sufficient industries that there is no money or investment for to create jobs without casino gaming.

And just as a little story to show you how petty that powers-that-be who oppose casino gaming are, when the Seminole Reservation in Florida applied to open bingo parlors on their Res, the Florida State Government (which runs high-stakes gambling in Daytona and Miami) opposed it on the grounds that (yes this is serious) "it will ruin the moral fabric of the state of Florida." Bingo. Ruin moral fabric. When you can play blackjack in Daytona.



------------------
Koga no Goshi

"Hokusai"
Now as a spirit
I shall roam
the summer fields.

[Red Peasant]

On topic : No.

------------------
"In a consumer society there are, inevitably, two kinds of slave: the prisoner of addiction and the prisoner of envy."

[Hosakawa Tito]

Quote Originally posted by Khan7:
Alright Koga, let me ask you a question-- Just how knowledgeable do you think the average american highschooler is? Is the correct answer:

(a) fairly competent and knowledgeable
(b) barely competent and knowledgeable
(c) "*duuuuhhhhh* whu da heck is jeowg wushintun"

And the correct answer is.. *ding ding ding ding ding* **C**!!!!

So basically the fact that few highschoolers you've talked to that were taking Mod. Am. Hist.-- which btw is usu. freshman year, which makes matters even WORSE-- knew about any of that stuff is TOTALLY IRRELEVANT! They could've been lectured for 2 hours on it the same day and they wouldn't care enough to remember any of it! (ok ok I'm exagerrating a bit here, but I'm serious! highschoolers are ignorant morons!).

Anyway, MY Mod. Am. Hist. course started off right after the Civil War, but I came in 6 weeks late so I don't know how the Indians were dealt with. I can say honestly that knowing the teacher personally he is an amazingly knowledgeable man and a man of conscience, so I can't imagine such things not being covered. But by the time I got there, we were already up to the turn of the century (i.e. all the major indian events were essentially finished), so I can't testify really (and no big loss to me I was EXTENSIVELY both educated both by my teachers and on my own throughout private elementary and middle school about this stuff).

My sophomore year, with World History, we had a hippie teacher so we were VERY aware of what had gone on, and were frequently preached to about how great animist phiolosophy is :-P Again, I think it has to do with the teacher being knowledgeable and of conscience. I will admit that such events are often dumbed down in the textbooks. I think the issues are so popular now though that the textbook is not really an obstacle unless you are dealing with a truly mediocre teacher.

Anyway, I can tell you that I for sure as hell know about it in detail, being an inquisitive person and having both Indian blood and very close Indian kin. And I doubt you'd find ANY highschoolers that wouldn't be aware that "we screwed the indians bad", that stuff is just too much in the schools and popular media nowadays that they wouldn't pick it up and have it stick to some degree.

And finally to Hosokawa: I know this isn't relevant to what you were saying, but I will repeat the point that until the second Wounded Knee in the 70s it was still cowboys and injuns and no one really knew about the stuff or was sensitive to it. That's about an 80-year gap between the last prominent atrocities against Indians. So lets give the Japs a little more time, if we are going to hold them to OUR golden standard :-)

Matt[/QUOTE]
Kahn7,
I didn't mean to imply that our standard was "golden",more like tarnished brass http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif,but compared to the Japanese "head in the sand"we wish it would go away approach to accepting responsibility for WW2 atrocities,I guess it might seem golden.The German people don't seem to need this "extra time" to face up to their sordid acts from this era,and they are to be commended for it.
Hopefully the Japanese government will do the same for the good of their people.Kind of hard to trust your own government when they deny what the rest of the world knows to be fact.The US government figures this out by painful trial and error too,sometimes http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gifusually at the cost of much humiliation,"those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones".The Japanese people should demand to know the truth,as should all of us who live in a democratic society.
Believe me,it won't be given freely.



------------------
Diplomacy is the art of telling someone to go to hell so that they look forward to making the trip.

[Khan7]

Have you even been listening, Hosokawa? Do you think it's a bunch of autonomous beauracrats taking unilateral actions to cover things up? It's more like the government echoing the general sentiments of the people and not vigourously addressing it. It's not as if Japanese don't KNOW, it's more that they either don't talk about it or don't WANT to know. At least they aren't openly praising their genocidal acts, as we have for most of our history.

Our record is much much worse. As I said, almost everyone was going along with the "we had to take the land and civilize it, only good injun's a dead injun, kill the injun save the man" mentality until the 70's. Literally many people were quite gleeful (and a few fringe hardliners still are) about our atrocities vs. the Indians, until up to about 30 or fewer years ago.

The Japanese record is much better. They at least acknowledge what they did. Perhaps they don't want to talk about it frequently, loudly, or extensively, and perhaps quite a few of them simply don't want to know. But they're not denying it, and it is at any rate about as far from a government conspiracy as is Christianity.

Plus, don't the Japanese have some right to feel proud of their brave warriors and war dead? Even if they died for a cause that wreaked horrible acts, would you have them deny themselves the one thing that all people need, to be able to accept their ancestors as worthy? Can you not see the severe complications and twists involved in this issue? Can you not understand why the general sentiment is to take things one step at a time, flinching all the way as they gradually come to terms with it all?

It's just like the Vietnam War for us. We are still divided over it, if people aren't at eachothers necks anymore. It's like the Vietnam War, except times a factor of about 100 or 1000. Not only did they fight for values that in hindsight seemed futile and end up losing and committing war crimes; they fought fanatically for unquestioned ideals, ended up having their homeland horribly ravaged and their populace decimated, and along the way committed crimes against humanity that are some of the worst in history.

We WON the Indian 'wars', and it took us 80 years to come to terms with it. And we expect them to be totally cool with their little war after like 60. Think about it. You people are simplifying it beyond all imaginable bounds and speaking with amazing self-righteousness.

I have a feeling I probably both pissed a few people off there and rambled a bit, but oh well. If people keep dismissing the Japanese perspective on the irrelevant and hypocritical grounds that the Japanese committed horrible crimes, the issue will never be understood at all.

Matt

[This message has been edited by Khan7 (edited 09-09-2001).]

[Khan7]

And have we even issued any official apologies to anyone for the Vietnam war? If we did, how strong and farreaching were they?

And I would bet my life that we're gonna get at least one if not many people in here in about two seconds who are going to laud the goodness of the Vietnam War, or at least try and make excuses for it. See what I mean? See how these things are complicated? And can you not imagine how much more so it is in Japan?

Matt

[Khan7]

And do we not honor our Southern as well as our Northern warriors? Even our Southern warriors who fought with ever bit of their souls to keep the black man in horrid captivity and bondage? Will we not get at least one guy in here who's a sure-fire Dixie-born Son of the South who's gonna chew me out for this? Do such things ever really get buried?

And should we not honor our Southern warriors, even if we believe the cause they forught for to be thoroughly wrong and criminal?

And will not at least one guy in here go on and on about how the South was really only fighting for States rights and they were right in this sense?

Really people..

Matt

[Khan7]

One further addendum-- I don't know why I didn't bring this up earlier: now that I think about it, we were STILL committing grievous atrocities against the Indian peoples up till the 70s. And the American people are still almost entirely oblivious to it. It even slipped my mind temporarily.

Right up till the 70s the Bureau of Indian Affairs was kidnapping Indian girls and sterilizing them, to try and keep Indian populations down. And all along, and especially during the early 70s around the time of Wounded Knee, they used hired goon squads to intimidate and murder Indian Rights Activists; never investigating such murders (which in Wounded Knee leading up to the standoff were happening at an alarming and precipitous rate); and also trumping up charges against Indian Rights activists that they didn't want to murder (one of the best examples of this being Peltier). Is not Peltier still in jail? Do the FBI and BIA not still fanatically and publicly push for his continued imprisonment? And how many of you, being citizens who are no doubt much much more informed than the average, knew about many of the atrocities I just mentioned, that were carried out full steam only 30 years ago?

Matt

[Khan7]

And now this Associated Press story I got off of compuserve.com:

Japan Marks US Peace Treaty Signing
SAN FRANCISCO (AP) - Japanese Foreign Minister Makiko Tanaka apologized to prisoners of war taken during the Japanese march across Asia during World War II as her country and the United States marked the 50th anniversary of the treaty that officially ended the war. Though a Japanese prime minister made a similar apology in 1995, it was the first such gesture on U.S. soil that singled out POWs. ``The war has left incurable scars on many people, including former prisoners of war,'' Tanaka said. ``I reaffirm today our feelings of deep remorse and heartfelt apology.''
--Read More--

So I guess the Japanese are REALLLLY sticking their heads in the sand and the government is REALLLLY conspiring to cover things up, eh?

Matt

//EDIT: I will, though, concede that this one particular instance does not directly address the Korea and China issue, as this only deals with POWs and their plight is already well known. One could, however, correctly IMO take this as an indicator of the general attitude.//


[This message has been edited by Khan7 (edited 09-09-2001).]

[clink]

Khan 7

If the American civil war was so much about freeing slaves,then why were senior officers in the Union were still allowed to keep them?
What it boils down to really is that Abe didn't want to loose the Union while he was on watch.
The south despised the north because of its industrial wealth,and its power to dictate over the south.
Fort Sumpter as I'v been told, was really a post to collect taxes from the southern states.
Free the slaves only became a battle cry to rally support for its cause.
Its some what ironic,after a war that caused so many lives to free a race of slaves,the U.S. in its expansion west were to enslave and masacre native Americans.

[Devil_Hanzo]

Oh, and Khan7; will you please shut up, for chrissakes?!?! You just can't fill up an entire page in a "Japanese History and Cinema" forum with rants about everything from the Vietnam War to high school education about the AmerIndians! Especially not when you're the only one still posting.

And regardless of what you say, the fact still remains that this has nothing to do with how "complicated" things are. If they were ever going to apologize or face their history, they would've done so already. So it's obvious that the Japanese either feel they have nothing to apologize for (which would be really bad) or they are completely unable to deal with shame and defeat... Neither is anything to be proud of, and neither has anything to do with needing time or anything along those lines. Defending it, especially with arguments like "we've done bad stuff too", is pointless. Even if the US has committed crimes it hasn't made up for or dealt with (which I think you have, at least to a much greater extent than the Japanese), that's not a valid argument! The Japanese should've apologized properly a long time ago, and it's completely irrevelant if others have or haven't! Just because one person kills another, that's not an excuse for you to do the same, is it?

[Khan7]

Clink-- thank you for beautifully proving my point that people are still somewhat divided over the Civil War, and people still are looking out for the South even though it defended slavery.

The fact is that if you actually look at what was happening at the time is WAS all about slavery. The animousity started after the Mexican War when Congress was trying to decide whether the recently acquired territories would be slave or free. Friction continued as South and North battled in Congress over each and every new territory and state. It was bound to turn into a battle of guns eventually, and it did in 1861. It was ALL about slavery, though Lincoln may have been a pragmatist whose first priority was the preservation of the Union, and who didn't free the slaves until it was evident that total defeat of the South was the only hope for reconciliation.

The Southerners fought for slavery, and yet we honor their bravery and their courage to stand for their principles, however wrong. This is about the way it should be in my opinion.

Devil Hanzo-- I'm not quite sure how to respond to your little outburst. I think I shall return to this one in a while.

Matt

[Minamoto Yoritomo]

The Civil War was only marginally about slavery. The primary concern was the issue of states' rights. Certain Southern states believed that because they had willing joined the union, they had the right to willingly leave the union. Nothing in the constitution denied them this right, and the ninth amendment could be construed as giving this right.

Lincoln did many unconstitutional things during his presidency. He believed that maintaining the union was more important than upholding the law upon which it was based. It seems very likely that if he had allowed South Carolina to secede, it would have rapidly discovered the massive disadvantages of being outside the union.

Of course the Southern states were wrong to support slavery, and the founding fathers should have addressed the issue when they had the chance. Unfortunately, the side that was in the right on the issue of the power of the federal government was in the wrong on the issue of slavery.

The American Civil War set the precedent that allowed the federal government to continually expand its power, trampling the rights of the states and citizens. If you don't believe me, try this experiment. Move to a state where medicinal marijuana is legal. Get a prescription from your doctor. Go home, grow some weed, dry it, smoke it. Call a DEA officer. See what they do to you in the name of "interstate commerce". If you don't understand how a plant you grow and smoke at home comes under the interstate commerce clause, you're not alone.

Disclaimer: The author of this post in no way endorses marijuana use. In fact, he discourages it. He just doesn't see what business it is of the federal government.

[clink]

Khan
I can assure you that it wasn't my intention to defend the souths right to enslave another.
But what took place back then,seems to be taking place in Canada at this moment.
Central Canada ie Ontario and Quebec have always been the centre of industrial and political wealth,since the start of confederation in this country.
Our prime minister has more dictorial power than your own president,such as, apoint all members of the senate,apoint all judges of the supreme court,apoint and hire his own ethics commisioner,and the list of prime ministeral power don't end there. The politicians in the east have used these powers to ensure complete dominance of power in Canada.
The western provinces are tired of being dictated from the east,there for talk of seperation is being raised quite often.the west feels that they are no more than colonies to be exploted by the east with out true representation in the federal system.I am not an expert on U.S.history but the resembalance I believe is simular,to what agravated the southern states.
So now that you have been some what educated by our government system,you can come to the conclusion that your neighbor to the north closely resembles a dictator ship.
Even if slavery wasn't the main issue of the civil war,least of all it did wipe out this inhumane cruel act.

[Khan7]

Clink: ahh.. now I see where you are getting your ideas. The situation in the US of 1861 was different, for many reasons. Yes, the South did feel it was being dictated to by the North, but the issue they was being dictated to them was slavery. It is essentially historical fact that the tensions leading to secession were built by disputes over which new territories and states would be slave and which free. This animousity, as I said, first broke free after the Mexican War and built steadily from that point on. There is a direct correlation between slavery disputes and the rift between North and South.

And if the Southerners hadn't been fighting to continue oppression of the black man, then how do we explain the continued oppression of colored people after the Civil War, in the form of share-cropping and Jim Crow? The ideals of superiority and hatred were deeply enough instilled to direct Southern politics up through the *19*60s and *19*70s.

Yoritomo: For all the reasons above, to say that the American Civil War was only marginally about slavery and mostly about Civil Rights is like saying that the Thirty Years War was only marginally about religion and mainly about who got to live where and have what land. Yes it was about states rights: the main right in question, and the spark that started it all, was slavery. For all the reasons above.

Now of course you obviously have a more conservative viewpoint on politics, and that is your right and that is not an issue (in fact we may have some agreements in this area). But disputes over slavery were the primary and dominant cause of the Civil War.. the South wasn't being all big and altruistic supporting "State's Rights". They wanted their slaves, from which they derived their economic power and their entire culture and infrastructure; the loss of slaves, in the eyes of the Southerners of the day, would have meant the loss of all this, and consequent subjection to Northern domination. They wanted, and in their eyes, needed, badly to keep the black man in his chains, working the plantations; and they were willing to use any means, including secession and bloody and devastating warfare, to achieve this end.

It is also important to note, in the context of this particular discussion, that the US of 1861 was still very federal, and it was indeed to occurence of the Civil War that began what many decry as the US's rapid slide into centralization of power. Lincoln had not "dictatorial" power to end slavery or oppress the South-- abolition was an intensely popular movement, centered in the North. It was the eventuality of abolition, due to Northern dominance of the legislature, which the South feared, not the power of the president.

Matt

[FwSeal]

I am in agreement with Khan on this one. The idea that the Civil War was NOT a direct result of the issue of slavery greatly underestimates the importance of slavery to the South (above and beyond, frankly, being revisionist nonsense). Slavery was not just of vital importance from an economic point of view; it was a way of life (as Khan writes above). The threat to slavery, as represented by the North, was a threat to the Southern way of life. Sure, the South was fighting for 'state's rights' - but the right to own slaves was the issue that brought the nation to war.

[The Black Ship]

Yes Japan should apologize...and this time try not to "qualify" it's apology http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

Sorry to hijack the thread back http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif

BTW South Carolina tried to secede under the Jackson administration too (some non-sense over State's rights and National tariffs), and Jackson was an ardent slave owner.

[vangersonm]

I think the Allies should apologize for bombing Dresden, the British for Bombing the Argentinens in the Falkand Islands, the British for killing the Zulus, the Americans for killing the vietnamese, the Italians for the conquest of Europe under the Roman empire, the Spaniards for the killing of the Aztecs and the Incas, the Americans for the Conquest of Western America, the French for Napoleons actions, and Japan for the militaries actions that took place 50 years ago.

[Hosakawa Tito]

Yes, and Cro-Magnon man should apologize for driving the Neanderthal's to extinction http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

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Diplomacy is the art of telling someone to go to hell so that they look forward to making the trip.

[Devil_Hanzo]

vangersonm: I think you missed my point. The point was that it's completely irrelevant whether others have apologized for whatever they may have done. Japan still should have apologized. Maybe we can't expect them to, when so many others haven't, but that doesn't change the fact that they should have apologized. IMO, arguing with the "they haven't, so we won't either" type of argument won't get us anywhere. The topic was "Should Japan apologize to Korea?", and yes, I think Japan should apologize to Korea. I also think the European powers and the US should apologize to all the nations they've completely f***ed up through history. The Roman empire is so far back that it would just seem stupid, but in the other cases, especially when those nations want apologies, I think they should get apologies. An apology doesn't really cost anyone anything, but it can help improve relations between people, so I don't see why anyone shouldn't apologize if they have done something there's reason to apologize for. If I beat you up, but later realize that was wrong and hurt you, why should I refuse to apologize? Thus, the only reasons not to apologize are
a) that you don't recognize that you've done something wrong
b) that you are completely unable to deal with shame/defeat, which means you need help anyway

[Khan7]

Rrrg.. I would deal with a few of your points in a reasonable and respectful manner Hanzo, but today I'm not in a reasonable mood >:-(, so I shall postpose this.

Matt

[Brown Wolf]

Since everyone is talking about an apology there is a poll on a site (http://www.japantoday.com) which asks if the dropping of the a bomb was a war crime.....
personally I think that was a bad question (but I don't like that site anyway)

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The White Wolf clan will conqouer all of Japan!


White Wolf Clan (http://www.geocities.com/iron_wolf81/whitewolf.html).html[/url]

[This message has been edited by Brown Wolf (edited 09-12-2001).]

[Minagawa Daimon]

NO! the conquered has no rights

[Oda Matsu]

I'm still upset about the poor Taira. No one says a kind word for Lady Daibo these days, at least not in Peoria anyway. Most upsetting.

Well? What about it?

[TenkiMadoka]

Dear all,

This isnt helping. The topic was 'Should Japan apologize to Korea.'

Not Should US apologise to Japan or Japan apologise to China. or etc etc.

Stick to the subject or don't post at all. By doing this you are only flaming the subject that hasn't been fully breached and starting another one.

Shingi-Madoka Suzuki
Daimyo of the Shingi Clan

p.s. it was worth my 20 mins readin this thread though, I was able to place some people who have posted here in my own category of personalities. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[tienyi]

As a matter of fact apart from demanding apologies, Korea and China, Vietnam also demanding repayment. These are the news that I have heard a long time ago.

China elder people demands apologies from Japanese, some japanese went to to China and ask the elderly not to mention again of japanese rape of chinese women in Najing during World War 2.

England demanded apologies from Japan during World War 2.

If these countries demands apologies from other countries then the countries should apologize and give as much help as possible, because of many trategies that they cause during World War 2 to other countries. Therefore the countries that suffer might change their thoughts towards these other countries like Japan, Italy or Germany.

If repayment and apologies are given then the countries can make friends, since nowadays it is a peace world, everyone always demand peace, no violence and more respect.

Repayments cannot be made in one go, it just like repaying back a loan borrowed from a bank, where you will repay their money bit by bit, if this can happen between these countries then less wars will occur

Kindness is always the way to rule a country. Whereas the more cruel a ruler is the more people will try to kill the ruler.This is the way to make peace towards other countries and also it will benefit their own country.

[Jaguara]

Quote Originally posted by Khan7:
One further addendum-- I don't know why I didn't bring this up earlier: now that I think about it, we were STILL committing grievous atrocities against the Indian peoples up till the 70s. And the American people are still almost entirely oblivious to it. It even slipped my mind temporarily.

Right up till the 70s the Bureau of Indian Affairs was kidnapping Indian girls and sterilizing them, to try and keep Indian populations down. And all along, and especially during the early 70s around the time of Wounded Knee, they used hired goon squads to intimidate and murder Indian Rights Activists; never investigating such murders (which in Wounded Knee leading up to the standoff were happening at an alarming and precipitous rate); and also trumping up charges against Indian Rights activists that they didn't want to murder (one of the best examples of this being Peltier). Is not Peltier still in jail? Do the FBI and BIA not still fanatically and publicly push for his continued imprisonment? And how many of you, being citizens who are no doubt much much more informed than the average, knew about many of the atrocities I just mentioned, that were carried out full steam only 30 years ago?

Matt[/QUOTE]

I am glad that you brought this up. People may know about arbitrary transgressions against native peoples a few hundred years ago...and they might even be aware of slaughters in the late 1800s...but what about events like Wounded Knee - that occured at the peak of a reign of terror during which as many as 300 traditionals from the Pine Ridge reservation disappeared or died - all while there was an overhelming FBI presence in the area - and not one case was investigated.

And you said it quite clearly as well...Leonard Peltier is STILL in jail, 26 years after the event, continually denied appeals and clemency, even when it has been revealed that there is NO evidence other than he was there - the FBI fabricated evidence and intimidated witnesses to give false testimony. The United States has it's own political prisoner. Nelson Mandela, Amnesty Intl., and many others have called for his release...but he is still in jail...a symbol of the ongoing persecution of the native peoples of North America.

Here in Canada, where no native nation surrendered or was defeated in battle, living conditions on remote reserves are on third world levels - all while our Prime Minister brags about how we are the best place in the world to live. He quotes the UN report to back this...apparently he is ignorant of the fact that Canada was demoted to #3 on that list this year. We continue to force assmilation into our system, stall treaty claims and negotiations.

Just last year fisheries officers were confiscating native boats and fishing gear for exercising their treaty rights to fish. Apparently their 10,000 traps in a fishery of 200,000 was going to destabalize lobster populations...During the standoff, intimidation tactics were common, such as helicopters buzzing traditional cerimonies during the "truce day".

Anyway, I must say that I am quite impressed with the amount of knowledge displayed on this site.

Koga No Goshi, Khan7...I am impressed, I salute you. With ones such as yourselves championing this cause, it is a sign of good things to come. You shame me, both in your knowledge and in your ability to "speak".

Mitakuye Oyasin
Jaguara

[Gaxebo-sama]

Remember Nanjing !! Gothmog, I agree with you

[Idaho]

Quote Originally posted by Minagawa Daimon:
NO! the conquered has no rights[/QUOTE]

Such profound brevity in a thread of unending hot air. Well said.

[Katasaki Hirojima]

I never knew about these recent events that have been perpetrated against the native americans.

Its sad really that our nation is more authoritarian then one whould think.

Politicians, trying to stay in office, do terrible things and cover there actions up. With the unlimited resources of america, its very easy to subjugate the people with ignorance and propoganda.

Freedom my arse, I may be able to say what I want, but who can hear me, and whould they care? Whats the use of voteing if I can't make a educated one? I hate corruption. Corruption is what causes these sorts of things to happen.

But thats enough ranting now, Dun want to offend anybody.

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"I maintain none the less that Yin-Yang Dualism can be overcome. With sufficent enlightment, we can give substance to any distinction: Mind without body, north without south, pleasure without pain. Renember, enlightment is a function of will power, not of physical strength."- Shang-ji Yang, essays on mind and matter.

[tootee]

I am fascinated with the japanese culture. I like the way they speak. I like to watch their shows and anime. And my idols are all japanese.

But they should let go of their big ego, and at least inform their youngs the wrong deeds of the past.