Historical Battles

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Just getting this thread up and running. A few things to note, I am working just about independantly from the main modders, and as I have no other real modding skills I will not be delaying the release of this mod as I can be working on this without detracting from their time on the heart of the mod. I am willing to take suggestions or have people who have more .txt file editing experience come and help, the more the merrier. Lastly Silver Rusher has final say on just about everything as far as I know.

[Yggdrasill]

for these battles I have research already done and could start working on them right away if i the mod was finished:

1. The siege of Malta 1565, Turks Vs. the Hospitallers. I think the best way to do this would be to split it into two distinct battles (the final attack on the catle St. Angelo and the attack on the city itself).

2. Sisak 1593 - Croatians (Hungarians, Austrians) Vs. Ottomans. It's a not a very famous battle that happened in my country. However, it was quite important as it marked the end of turkish conquests. Also, it was 10000+ battle on both sides so it would fit perfectly in the RTW engine (some of the bigger 30000+ battles don't really work properly when scaled down).

3. The siege of Siget 1566- Croatians (Hungarians) Vs. the Ottomans. I would like to recreatre the famous final dash of the last of the besieged defenders, a few hundred of them, strait into the the waiting arms of 100,000 screaming Ottomans. Needless to say, they all died. Famous for the fact that during the protracted siege, Suleiman the Magnificient, died of a heart failure.

4. The battle of Nicopolis 1396 - Burgundian crusaders against the Turks. Just a few years prior to the beginning of the mod, it's no problem moddeling this battle as well. All of the units will be there.

5. Bosworth field 1485 - 15000 Yorks against 10000 Tudors, the death of Richard the III. ('We few, we lucky few, we band of brothers!!!')

6. Fornovo 1495 and Pavia 1525. The end and the beginning of the bloody Italian wars.

7. Agincourt 1415. No need to elaborate

A few others as well (Towton 1461, Marignano, some battles from the Burgundian wars, maybe even the battle of Mohacs although it's really to big).

As you can see, I favour smaller battles, as these look and feel much better when scaled down. also I've included a few of region specific, not so worldwide known events that are nevertheless of huge importance for the sides involved.

A few others I'd like to model but i have yet to do the research:

1. Tannenberg/Grunwald
2. Battle at the field of Krbava (the Bloody field)
3. Flodden field

[Tribolute]

Agincourt would be hard because they've found most of the french casualties were because as they were charging up the bottleneck battlefield, they fell face first in the mud, and due to the unusally sticky mud of the area, couldn't get up and drowned.

[Silver Rusher]

Also in agincourt the longbowmen used stakes, which I don't think will be possible in RTW.

An idea for agincourt is that the English have a general, two billmen units and two longbowmen units (all high valour) and the french have loads of crossbowmen and knight units. The map would have to be new, definately, as we would need the English to be on a hill, with forest on either side. There would have to be a lot of marsh to simulate the mud, and I think it should be raining (not sure if it actually was raining or had just finished raining in the actual battle).

[monkian]

Well it sounds alot better than the version that came with MTW ~;)

Would there be anyway to make the forrests on either side impassible to actually make a bottle neck ?

[Silver Rusher]

That may well be possible. Of course the french knights could never go through the forest, otherwise the battle would be unbalanced.

The battle of Fornuvo - Probably my favourite battle of the era. The Visconti Duke of Milan started a long feud with the King of Naples, during which they hated each other so much, that the Milanese actually called for help. They called to quite the wrong people, namely, the treacherous French, whose past actions had shown they could not be trusted. The Milanese offered the French a passageway through their lands, as well as support in form of supplies. The Florentines and other Italian states agreed.

Soon the Italians realised how foolish they had been. The French King Charles was ambitious, and had his own plans. Instead of just attacking naples, he planned to conquer all of Italy. The Italians realised and joined togethor, actually putting their differences aside to get rid of the French.

The set up an ambush near the town of Fornuvo, which had a forest on a hill on one side with a river running through the middle. They outnumbered the French, yet the French actually won the battle, as the Italians could not get their troops over the river in time (you must note that the river was the key strategic point in the battle).

Please tell me if any of this is wrong.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

I already have researched a few of these and I will put my list here for all to see if you see any battle that I have missed please inform me or research it and then convince me of its significance, I will be openminded and am only using convince because no other suitable word come to mind. We can work on figuring out the game mechanics after we have a good list of battles. Feel free to give any opinions on any issues and battles but please stick to factual information, and if you use opinions or speculation in your arguments clearly mark them. Again arguments was used because I could not think of a more approptiate/less strong word.

Constantinople, Angora 1402, Shrewsbury 1403, Agincourt, Furnovo, Tannenburg, Vienna, Malta.

I have not yet researched the last three but the rest I have researched, feel free to bring up battles concerning your country of origin if you like as I may overlook some battles because I am an american and in our schools we are unfortunately only taught a little about battles like Constantinople, Hastings, Calais and Agincourt.

[Silver Rusher]

I have a book on the battle of Malta.

Hospitaller Knights from across christian Europe had gathered into the tiny island of Rhodes in an attempt to stop the Ottomans from controlling the med completely. They failed fairly miserably, so they eventually found themselves fleeing onto their ships.

They (at the time) had no idea where they were going, so the Grand Master Jean de la Vallette (the city of Valletta is named after him) and his councillors decided that Malta would be the next position. It was arid, desolate, with no farmland whatsoever (which is the kind of thing you want in a last stand, even if the enemy win the battle there's not much they can get out of it). It was also hard to land troops due to the very rocky coast.

In 1565 the Ottomans came, with an army of thousands, outnumbering the Knights intensely. They came with many Sipahi and Janissaries, the fighting elite of the Turkish army. There were actually a series of battles in that year in castles across the island, until the Knights finally repelled the Ottomans.

Please feel free to describe the battles you know a lot of in here.

[eadingas]

Please feel free to describe the battles you know a lot of in here.

Varna 1444. The "last Crusade" - last major attempt to relieve Constantinople from the Turks. Organized by Pope, but Pope's and Venetia's forces never arrived. Polish, hungarian and serbian forces - 20-25,000 - vs 60,000 turks (other sources have 30,000 vs 120,000) Despite tactical genius of Jan Hunyady, total disaster, death of Polish king, retreat, and lost hope for Constantinople - and, in the long run, Hungary.
http://www.staszic.edu.pl/2002/2c/strona13/Warna%201444_pliki/image004.jpg

(red - Catholics, green - Turks)
(this may look like the reds are winning, and they were for a long time until the king died and everyone panicked. You see, he was one of them 'suicide generals' and perished in a charge against infantry :)

Also, you could include battle of Mohac, where Hungary perished to Ottomans.

[Suleimen the Magnificent]

1. The siege of Malta 1565, Turks Vs. the Hospitallers. I think the best way to do this would be to split it into two distinct battles (the final attack on the catle St. Angelo and the attack on the city itself).


I like this idea. I think the best attack on the city to show would be when Don Pedro de Mezquita led his 200 men (100 horse, 100 Harquebusiers) into the rear of the ottoman camp, shouting "victory and relief!" right when they (the ottomans) would have taken the city, until those who had seen de Mezquita's attack spread panic among the army.

[Silver Rusher]

I don't think it should be split up. What I think should happen is if we take the one battle that is most glorious, funnest or whatever. I think that the siege on the last city would be the best option.

[Yggdrasill]

Correction not st. Angelo but St. Elmo.

Constantinpole, Mohach and some others are all fine, but really people they are too big. We should concentrate on smaller battles, also ones that are less famous. I for one more enjoyed the battle of Raphia than for exmple Trebia, or Carrhae (terrible).

Try and dig through you country's respective history and find some interesting battles.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Here is what my country has to offer; Gettysburg, Wilderness, Pearl Harbor, Fort Ticonderoga, Alamo. Don't think I have a good country for this. But I will research some of the famous ones and we can include as many as we feel like, no reason to exclude the famous ones, but we should look at the numerous obscure and sometimes more interesting battles.

[eadingas]

Polish battles, roughly in the range of the mod:
1333 - Battle of Płowce. Polish forces vs Teutonic knights, first battle not lost against the Teutonics (draw)
1399 - Battle of Vorskla. Lithuanian, Rus, Polish and Teutonic forces of prince Vitovt utterly crushed by Tatars. This defeat meant that Lithuanians could not unify Russia by themselves - and was the beginning of the power of Moskva.
1410 X - Battle of Koronovo. Less known and smaller than Tannenberg, but equally if not more important. This battle marks the end of 1410 Great Poland-Teutonic War, and means total defeat of the Knights.
1444 - Battle of Varna. See above.
1453 - Battle of Chojnice. Beginning of the XIII-years War. Polish 'pospolite ruszenie' and heavy cavalry totally defeated by better organized Teutonic Knights force. One of the important battles in development of warfare, since for the first time the teutonic infantry remained on the battlefield while the knights fled. And they won.
1462 - Battle of Swiecino. Near the end of the XIII-years War. Instead of 'pospolite ruszenie', Poland has employed mercenaries and professional soldiers, fighting in a hussite style, and they have dealt a painful blow to the Teutonic army.
1514 - Battle of Orsza. A bridge battle, in which 25000 polish troops crosses the river and defeats 80,000 Moscow troops
1531 - Battle of Obertyn. Poland wins over Moldova, and makes it a protectorate.
1577 - Battle of Lubieszow. Poland vs. Gdansk Rebels - 1300 polish cavalry vs 10-12,000 mercenary german infantry and town militia... Losses: Poland 188, Gdansk 9500

There was plenty of other battles in those days, most of them had the same result: polish cavalry beats the crap out of whoever stands in their way :) :charge:

[Silver Rusher]

Nice ideas there eadingas.

However, we can't just include loads and loads of battles for every faction, so I am going to cut out- Plowce (bit too early), Koronovo, Swienco, Obertyn and Lubieszow. Except maybe Vorskla, the others are fine.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Last night I researched Tannenburg. Researching this battle raised one question for me, SR will Foot Knights be in the game?

[Tribolute]

The country I live in has a few major battles and nobody cares,
Eureka Stockade (only famous because of politics)
Gallipoli
Somme
Kokoda Trail
Tobruk...

None are relevant to this mod :P

But yeah, definitely have some crusades, and weren't there many Rebel attempts in Aragon?

[eadingas]

Nice ideas there eadingas.

However, we can't just include loads and loads of battles for every faction, so I am going to cut out- Plowce (bit too early), Koronovo, Swienco, Obertyn and Lubieszow. Except maybe Vorskla, the others are fine.

Umm... what does that leave? ;) Anyway, it's just a selection, you wanted to dig, so I dug :) Do whatever you wish with that. Too bad that after development of hussars all polish battles get a bit dull, following the same boring pattern :)

[Silver Rusher]

Foot knights? That my friend is a very tricky issue, which I haven't really thought about. I'm not sure about how to go about this; maybe a completely new unit?

[SwordsMaster]

May I suggest Rocroi and Nordlingen

[Tribolute]

Oh, Agincourt was mostly footknights because the mud was too bad for the horses...

They took samples, and it's extra sticky mud apparently :o. and the battlefield topography really just made them kill themselves.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Yes the English just pushed the French over, because the English were lightly armoured and watched them drown in the mud or suffocate under the heap of dead Frenchmen!


I was thinking that Foot Knights could come in a few different varieties, similar to the system in MTW, but because there is no dismount command make them a different unit from mounted knights with a reduced cost and upkeep. This would be due to the high cost and upkeep of warhorses, the decrease in the amount of armour that would be worn by the knights and the lack of a lance. The main stats to edit would probably be charge bonus and speed, because the knight would probably have worn the same armour, and the warhorse would add some vulnerability.


BTW are there going to be Irish units? Even if they were just under the English tech tree it would be nice to have them because the Irish were fierce if somewhat undisiplinned warriors.

[Tribolute]

Yeah,

I'm kind of ruining your whole plan for Agincourt aren't i? :P

[Silver Rusher]

BTW are there going to be Irish units? Even if they were just under the English tech tree it would be nice to have them because the Irish were fierce if somewhat undisiplinned warriors.
Fierce... and drunk too.

On the discussion of Agincourt, I'm not going to use foot knights for the English, instead I'm gonna use billmen and longbowmen. The French, being the cocky arrogant people they are are gonna use knights.

[eadingas]

You mean kniggits

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Yes go MP!

BTW you are not ruining my idea for Agincourt I had the idea that the French fgoot knights could advance through the field under a hail of arrows and then have to fight the still fresh english spearmen or billmen. I already knew that the English did not use foot knights there, not enough money....

I am serious about the Irish, if you could make that province have bad loyalty towards the gnlish or everybody and then give them unique units that the english can train and anybody can hire as mercs. They add a unique slant to war because unlike many other armies of the time they would still not use much gunpowder and would have javilineers and Gallowglasses, men with Claymores. I think if it does not add too much to the development time the Irish should not be forgotten. They could even be added as a faction if you still have that slot free! They would probably be one of the hardest to succeed with but they have some advantages such ass: Island nation, Good infantry, Fast infantry. That is all I can think up off the top of my head but I think it would be great fun tio stick it to the English!


Wow that is a much longer post than I expected... :dizzy2:

[Silver Rusher]

Irish does not seem like a good idea for a faction. First off, there is not western european slot free, and secondly, (like Scotland) they were constantly being conquered by the English, and then rebelling afterwards. An Irish merc unit is a nice idea though, one that I will probably implement.

[Saranalos]

Yeah put The Irish warriors into the game as mercs and maybe they have a special attack like drunken rage ~:cheers:

And they could have bonus attack against the english like hatred of englishmen bonus or something like that.

[Celtic_Winter]

That sounds like a good bonus Saranalos ~;)
The idea of a bonus versus the English dosn't sound bad. Realistic actually.

[Silver Rusher]

It also doesn't sound possible. Yes, they can have an advantage against the style of army England uses, but that's about it.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

GO IRELAND!

I am Irish, so this is a post that actually reflects my heritage, not like my GO TURKEY! posts........ I would be glad to research the Irish military of the time and find out exactly what sort of units were most commonly used.

[Silver Rusher]

I think it's time to open up a discussion here about the Siege of Granada- how best to do it?

[Rick]

I think it's time to open up a discussion here about the Siege of Granada- how best to do it?

I read one book, "The Conquest of Granada" some years ago, but it was borrowed by a friend and never returned. What I remember from the book is that during the many campaigns, which all began in the spring with the melting of the snow and clearing of the mountain passes, there was a great deal of unilatateral opporations by the Spanish (at least in the beginning), and a lot of feuds between Muslim leaders (to the extent that at one time it was a 3 way brawl in which 2 Muslim armies fought each other).

The cities were well fortified, the strongest being Granada set on a mountain top and almost impregnable. Muslim armies would fortifiy areas around the city. Battle narratives depicted contests which ended in stalemates most of the time.

In the beginning the armies were equal, with the Spanish having a slight edge beging better armored. Replacements were hard to come by, and the most prudent commanders were hesitant to waste men in needless assaults. In the later campaigns, both sides were reinforced by mercenaries, some for religious reasons, some for adventure and loot (including a company of Engish longbowmen - the captain of which was killed). Gun powder, fire arms, and cannons were in use and became more numerous as the war went on.

I hope this helps. Please remember it's all from memory, so if anyone spots decrepencies please weigh in and correct me.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Thanks, I don't really know about that battle but if you want to confirm what you said with research that would be great!

Thanks for the info! ~:cheers:

[Rick]

Thanks, I don't really know about that battle but if you want to confirm what you said with research that would be great!

Thanks for the info! ~:cheers:

For some reason, research is limited. But I'll see what can do. I'll get back to you later.

Rick

[Rick]

You may wish to view this website:

http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext02/cgran10.txt

It has the text of Washington Irvings Conquest of Grenada. It's a good read with cognac or whisky.

Rick

[Saranalos]

No it would probably be possible you know the way certain generals have hatred of carthaginians 1+ command just change the words to hatred of englishmen and have it a very easy trait to get and give it to the rebel Irish generals.

But maybe it would be too hard to do or impossible?
~:) ~:) ~:) ~:) ~:)

But im serious about drunken rage make the mercanaries beserkers and give them super morale with excellent attack and low defence make them only recruitable in Ireland and in small numbers.
~:cheers: ~:cheers: ~:cheers:
and Uesugi Kenshin you said in an earlier post youre american and now you say youre Irish????? :dizzy2: :dizzy2: ~:confused: ~:confused: ~:confused:

[Rick]

Actually, whether your Irish, European, American, it doesn't matter. We all know the Bush administration is tainted with hatred, death and bigotry. But look on the bright side, every soothsayer and astrologist seems to have "Dubya" dying in office.

I'm sorry. That won't happen again. I got carried away.

I play with many people on the internet, Bush supportes as well. Playing with Bush supporters is a lot more fun, because I beat the regularly.

Sorry again. I know I'm not Cathelic, but it looks like I have a habit.

We should stick together and seek to offer help for this mod. No where else will you find any game company willing to produce such a game.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

I was born in America, but most of my family is from Ireland so I am of Irish blood and classify myself as Irish because America is too young a country and my family have only been here for 200 years so there is not a big difference between Irish from Ireland and Irish from America cept the wonderful accent!

I looked up Irish mil. for like 2 hours have no info, so we just have to go on what we already know.

Bush is an idiot, that is all lets not get sidetracked.

I have copied that link into my Wordperfect file, but I cannot have the congac or whiskey with it cause I am too young.....

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Everybody that has lots of research or wants to see the research should get a free e-mail account such as hotmail or gmail beta so that we can send research toi everybody and we do not fiull up tons of space on the threads with research..

Mine is all set up, just take my name and add Citadel@hotmail.com., try to email me when you set yours up and I will reply to make sure you have the right address.

[SwordsMaster]

You might want to contact Ranika about the irish units. He might want to give you a hand. Hes done a LOT of research about it already.

As for Granada:

The siege was long and boring. Very high human costs as frozed mountain fighting and climbing when combined with heavy armour and enemies shooting at you is very deadly.

The kings of spain (Castile and Aragon) would come and go to the main camp, usually when the king was present the armies advanced a little more (basically to show their courage and out of fear of being "fired" (the generals of course)). As the kings had many other problems within their kingdoms to settle down, as i said they visited the camp intermitently and the major advances were done by loot-seeking troops rather than planned operations.

The lack of sources is due to the fact that the muslim population in Granada was dispersed among Spain in the next couple of centuries, and MANY of them were burned by the Inquisition. The Royal Archives were crippled by several fires in various buildings in the XVIII and XIX centuries.

[eadingas]

Is Washington Irving considered a good historic resource? :)
http://arthursclassicnovels.com/arthurs/irving/chrcon10.html

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Thanks I will pm Ranika and see if he wants to help out!

[Rick]

Is Washington Irving considered a good historic resource? :)
http://arthursclassicnovels.com/arthurs/irving/chrcon10.html


Washington Irving was America's first novelist. He was also a historian. What sources were available to him I'm not sure. How accurate were his sources remains a question. If anyone finds a current publication of the conquest of Grenada please let me know. I would like to read it.

[eadingas]

Well, it's there on that link...

[Uesugi Kenshin]

I just got a ton of unit info from Ranika and there is easily enough to make a whole faction or a bunch of unique/merc units. If there is still a free faction Ireland would be a great choice because they would be very hard, they have unique units of every type pretty much, including gunpowder. They would be a great faction for experienced players to use. They would not have historically conquered the world but it would be worth it to add Ireland if there is a free space anywhere. Please tell me there is a free faction........

[Silver Rusher]

One thing to remember though is that, sorry, but we only have 300 unit spaces, ones that I don't want to be wasting 50 of on Ireland. Maybe 3 Irish units for the Irish rebels and a couple of Irish mercs though.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

It will be hard to choose them, when I go on later to do research I will come up with some reccomendations. 6 units? damn I have like 40 here. Maybe after this is done we can make a seperate campaign map and download if the British Isles? We could use much of the same models and such. Just an idea. Oh well for now it will be MTW and playing this as rebels but only using Ireland.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

I have some reccomendations ready, they are all pretty unique. I will post them later. I would like to know if anyone else has a particular faction/area that they know a lot about and would like to contribute ideas for mercs or unique units. The more research and info the better!

[eadingas]

Hey, I got for Christmas a good book about XIV-XV century wars in Central Europe. It has detailed descriptions of following campaigns:
- Hussite Wars
- Turkish conquest of Serbia and northern Balkans (including battle of Varna)
- Polish and Lithuanian wars with Teutonics after Tannenberg
All with complete and detailed descriptions of battles, equipment, castles, fortifications, and tactics, with good pictures and drawings. Are you interested in any of that info?

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Sure if you find anything that we do not seem to know about e-mail it to me by adding citadel@hotmail.com to the end of my screen name and post something about it here. All research is welcome.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

I am going to do some research ton ight and probablyu a lot next weekend, I will be able to do more research then cause finals will be over for better or worse. If anyone has any historical battles that they think are critical I am open to suggestions or tips, you can pm me or email me at the previously given address.
Thanks!

[Saranalos]

one correction your e-mail address is uesugikenshincitadel@hotmail.com
not uesugi_kenshincitadel@hotmail.com as many people would think it was.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Well, whups. I forgot about that..... Nice catch Saranalos. Wonder if anyone but you will find reason to e-mail me...

[Saranalos]

I dont think so no-one has e-mailed me either except you ~:(~:(

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Note to self: Popularity in forum mimicks real world popularity, many people talk to me but few are friends..... Conclusion: I am much too strange to be understood by the normal person. Like god....... HOOAH!


Just kidding...... Would be nice but I am too much of an Atheist to consider that even if I was that much of an egotist.

Guess we can just keep on e-mailing each other at random times Saranalos.

[Saranalos]

Yep randomization is the only way to survive thats why the germans lost the second world war they were too efficent. ~D ~D
and you seem to be proclaiming yourself as a minor god. Everyone worship Uesugi Kenshin ~D ~D :balloon2:

[Yggdrasill]

What drugs are you on and whewre can I get some? :dizzy2:

[Uesugi Kenshin]

I think it is called life, it is a rather common but priceless commodity. Most people who lose their supply of it are not very happy and become quite dull...

[Wah_fish]

I am an expert on British battles if you need any help PM me any time.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

All right thanks for the offer. If anybody has questions about British battkes pm him, I currently don't have any questions but come next week I will be doing more work so you never know....

[DochtorGajo]

Sorry for reopening but are you planning to include Castillon and Formigny from the end of 100yrs was?:stupido:

[DochtorGajo]

Here some info if youd like.

One of most reliable and giving quite a lot informations.

http://xenophongroup.com/montjoie/castilon.htm

http://xenophongroup.com/montjoie/formigny.htm