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Odysseus
12-06-2004, 01:56
I like the idea of your mod and everything. I have a few suggestions here:

Well first, I think you guys should mod (or at east try to) the Carthagians agressiveness and units to balance them. And you should have the Samaritans come in at a certain date as mercenaries or a nation.(Like the Golden Horde) I would like to see the barbarians(Mainly Germans) have troops only loyal to a warlord and you would have to call up the warlords to help you in a war instead of automatically controlling the units. It would be nice to see the Romans lose their edge in calvary and basically make their clavary bad. And also for the Romans, instead of having one kind of auxillia, implement different types mattering on where your recruiting from.(ex. Instead of getting average auxillia in Germania, you get Germania auxillia) Well that's my two cents.

Aymar de Bois Mauri
12-06-2004, 02:14
I like the idea of your mod and everything. I have a few suggestions here:

Well first, I think you guys should mod (or at east try to) the Carthagians agressiveness and units to balance them.
Partially done.


And you should have the Samaritans come in at a certain date as mercenaries or a nation.(Like the Golden Horde)
Samaritans??? :confused: Who are they?


I would like to see the barbarians(Mainly Germans) have troops only loyal to a warlord and you would have to call up the warlords to help you in a war instead of automatically controlling the units.
Not possible.


It would be nice to see the Romans lose their edge in calvary and basically make their clavary bad.
Done.


And also for the Romans, instead of having one kind of auxillia, implement different types mattering on where your recruiting from.(ex. Instead of getting average auxillia in Germania, you get Germania auxillia) Well that's my two cents.
Good idea.

Thanks for your imput.

Stormy
12-06-2004, 02:39
Sarmatians :bow: Good sir.

Only the future will tell. ~:cool:

Aymar de Bois Mauri
12-06-2004, 03:13
AH! The Sarmatians! I was having difficulty in associating RTW with the concept of the good samaritan... :wink:

Odysseus
12-08-2004, 02:41
I was wondering, do you guys need any help?

Steppe Merc
12-08-2004, 23:30
The Sarmatians will be a real faction... once we figure out how to add factions.

Aymar de Bois Mauri
12-09-2004, 02:01
I was wondering, do you guys need any help?
And what would be the area of imput you would like to concentrate on?

Alexander the Pretty Good
12-09-2004, 02:22
Suggestion:

Could you guys start a screenshots thread? That would be pretty nice, and a good way to:

1) Visually demonstrate your progress
2) Better illustrate the purpose of the mod - for people who won't read ~D
3) Build anticipation for the mod
4) Give me something to look at while waiting for your mod ~D

I am very interested in your mod, and will definitely try it when it comes out. ~:cheers:

Aymar de Bois Mauri
12-09-2004, 02:35
Suggestion:

Could you guys start a screenshots thread? That would be pretty nice, and a good way to:

1) Visually demonstrate your progress
2) Better illustrate the purpose of the mod - for people who won't read ~D
3) Build anticipation for the mod
4) Give me something to look at while waiting for your mod ~D

I am very interested in your mod, and will definitely try it when it comes out. ~:cheers:
There is already a screenshots thread. Check:

Unit changes/New unit implementation/3d and 2d unit graphics (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=38818)

Alexander the Pretty Good
12-09-2004, 02:57
Sorry. Boy, that's embarressing. :help:

Odysseus
12-09-2004, 03:15
I'm incredibly good at researching and unit stats.

Crownsteler
12-21-2004, 00:13
Hi.

I'm kinda Carthage freak, so I'm gonna bother you guys about it :P
So I have some questions (and suggestions) about Carthage. :)


-How will you be dealing with the recruitment system for Carthage, will you be implenting some kind of ZOR as in RTR? Because to me it would be rather silly if you could recruit iberian ce.... whatever you called them, in say, arabia, or those elite african mercenaries in britania. Instead would it be possible to not have a fixed unit list (well, maybe some fixed units would be good), but instead have them rely solley on mercenaries by making those recruitable in town instead of the regular troops.
-Will you be changing Carthages banner? I made a perfectly good one here (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=17038) *hint*hint* nah, just kiding, but I am rather fed up with the moon (and especially the white-blue color combination, which is ugly!) so will you be changing it. Also, will you be changing other banners, like the one for Macedionia
-Carthage name will be changed to Carthago?
-will you be making Carthage a superior trading faction or something? if so how?
-if it is possible, will you be remaking the cities? if so, what kind of style do you guys have in mind for Carthage?
some things about religion:
-will you be redoing the temple bonusses? if so, how?
-what gods are you going to include? I read somewhere baal, tanit, melqart and astare?
-will you be refering to baal just as baal, or as baal hammon? (just my personal preference, it doesn't really matter)
-could someone please explain the Carthaginian pantheon to me? I am confused. I always thoughed tanit and baal were the most important (and most worshiped gods), but when reading this board I came across astare and malqart as being important gods, while I also thoughed; astare = tanit

Now some minor sugestions:
-could you replace the public baths with something more appropiate? according to the Channel 4 history site they say that Carthaginians all had private baths and no public baths; under the header of "a society of individuals" (http://www.channel4.com/history/microsites/C/carthage/why_carthage_failed.html)
perhaps it could be replaced by an extended sewers?
-could you remove all the references to royalty from the game? I mean, wasn't carthage a republic? Instead, name those things to something accordingly with carthaginian government, so something like senate instead of imperial palace, people's assembly instead of governours palace, sufet palace instead of something, eehhh, council's chambers instead of something else. this would be cool :)

there were some more points, but I forgot them :$

khelvan
12-23-2004, 23:36
Hi.Hello Mr. Carthage freak! I am not actively part of our Carthage group, but I will attempt to answer your questions for you.


-How will you be dealing with the recruitment system for Carthage, will you be implenting some kind of ZOR as in RTR? Because to me it would be rather silly if you could recruit iberian ce.... whatever you called them, in say, arabia, or those elite african mercenaries in britania. Instead would it be possible to not have a fixed unit list (well, maybe some fixed units would be good), but instead have them rely solley on mercenaries by making those recruitable in town instead of the regular troops.EB will use our own system of recruitment based on the Homelands concept created by, and made popular by, Wes's MedMod for MTW. We have several ex-MedMod members as a part of our team, and this concept has been in the works for a long time in EB, even before RTW came out.

Factions will have fixed unit lists, where appropriate. They will have shared units, where appropriate. Also mercenaries in certain areas, where appropriate.

I will say that the Carthaginians will be able to recruit Iberian units in historically appropriate places, and not, for instance, in Carthage itself.

How accurate we can get depends on how well our theoretical system works in practice. However, we are confident, and testing on this is slated to begin presently.


-Will you be changing Carthages banner? I made a perfectly good one here (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=17038) *hint*hint* nah, just kiding, but I am rather fed up with the moon (and especially the white-blue color combination, which is ugly!) so will you be changing it. Also, will you be changing other banners, like the one for MacedioniaYes - I believe I have not yet heard of a faction banner/icon that will be kept as-is from the vanilla game. Your banner looks quite nice! However, we are creating our own banners and attempting to keep the style and substance relatively consistent across our factions, and I think work has already been done on the Carthage banner.

I believe you can see a prototype of our Carthage icon concept in the last bit of our screenshots thread - I think Prometheus spilled the beans, so to speak.


-Carthage name will be changed to Carthago?Faction names have generally stayed English, unless you are referring to the city itself? Cities/provinces are generally using ethnic/culture-specific names from the period where available, and where not, using Greek or Latin where appropriate. As to the city of Carthage, I do not know our specific plans in this regard.


-will you be making Carthage a superior trading faction or something? if so how?Carthage will hold its historical place as a true power in the region. Paramount in this are our expanded map and new provincial holdings, unit balance, and economic resources. Specifically there is far too much detail to go into here. :)


-if it is possible, will you be remaking the cities? if so, what kind of style do you guys have in mind for Carthage?I am not sure what you mean by this. Remaking the cities in what way? Changing buildings? Changing the city view? Changing the way city build queues work?


some things about religion:
-will you be redoing the temple bonusses? if so, how?
-what gods are you going to include? I read somewhere baal, tanit, melqart and astare?
-will you be refering to baal just as baal, or as baal hammon? (just my personal preference, it doesn't really matter)
-could someone please explain the Carthaginian pantheon to me? I am confused. I always thoughed tanit and baal were the most important (and most worshiped gods), but when reading this board I came across astare and malqart as being important gods, while I also thoughed; astare = tanitYes, we will be redoing temple bonuses. This is going to be a change for all factions, and we are still working out the details on our new temple system. I think I will let our member who is doing his thesis on ancient religions of the region answer your religion questions.


-could you replace the public baths with something more appropiate? according to the Channel 4 history site they say that Carthaginians all had private baths and no public baths; under the header of "a society of individuals" (http://www.channel4.com/history/microsites/C/carthage/why_carthage_failed.html)
perhaps it could be replaced by an extended sewers?Don't worry, all factions are getting a new building system put in place, with more faction-appropriate buildings.


-could you remove all the references to royalty from the game? I mean, wasn't carthage a republic? Instead, name those things to something accordingly with carthaginian government, so something like senate instead of imperial palace, people's assembly instead of governours palace, sufet palace instead of something, eehhh, council's chambers instead of something else. this would be cool :)I will let someone from our Carthage group answer this one.

Thank you for your suggestions!

Urnamma
12-24-2004, 00:09
-could you remove all the references to royalty from the game? I mean, wasn't carthage a republic? Instead, name those things to something accordingly with carthaginian government, so something like senate instead of imperial palace, people's assembly instead of governours palace, sufet palace instead of something, eehhh, council's chambers instead of something else. this would be cool

Well, this depends. The suffete himself was a kind of royalty, for his period of election. Also, the old royal palace was the place where the Suffete (which is the latinized version of the word, btw) held court. People's assembly is misleading and sounds too... republican. Carthage could more adequately be called an Oligarchy. The citizens (who were mostly either rich or middle class) made the decisions that the subject populations had to live with.

I agree though, and some name changes will take place. I'm a historian specializing in the near east btw, and Carthage is my pet project. I can assure you they'll get the works as far as being historically correct goes.

As far as the temple thing... Baal (hammon is superflous, it's just a title..) It's like calling you Jim the King, or something. Baal, Astarte, Tanit (who the carthaginians made a different Goddess than Astarte, for some reason) and Melquart.

Carthage is a fine name. Carthago is latin.... Kart-Hadasht is the Phoenician transliteration.

Alexander the Pretty Good
12-24-2004, 02:47
A few questions/suggestions:

1)Will you incorporate some of the Trivium mods/enhancements into your mod? Can you identify which ones?

2)This is a a little like stealing, but I read something in the Sengoku Jidai subforum that sounded pretty cool: hiding trait effects. That is, the description of the trait does not show what bonuses it conveys. I like the idea, as it focuses the game less on the math of what this or that trait does. And in real life one doesn't see number values of a persons intelligence, influence, and tactical abilities; hiding the trait effects reflects this. If you do incorporate this, you might want to talk with Duke John and the Sengoku Jidai team first.

3)I sincerely hope you rework the experiance bonuses from some of the units - it seems a little cheesey that a temple can make all the troops trained in a province more experianced. :dizzy2: Maybe shift those bonuses over to barracks or something, with larger barracks conveying some experiance... But I think most of the experiance in the game should be from hard-earned fighting. :duel: :charge:

khelvan
12-24-2004, 10:27
1)Will you incorporate some of the Trivium mods/enhancements into your mod? Can you identify which ones?We have already incorporated the Cherry Vanilla Pack into EB. However, in general, the EB project team is doing just about everything else one could think of from scratch. The scope of the project is huge, and we have already had other TTO members decide to shut down work on their own projects to join the EB effort - see the DBD mod as an example.



2)This is a a little like stealing, but I read something in the Sengoku Jidai subforum that sounded pretty cool: hiding trait effects. That is, the description of the trait does not show what bonuses it conveys. I like the idea, as it focuses the game less on the math of what this or that trait does. And in real life one doesn't see number values of a persons intelligence, influence, and tactical abilities; hiding the trait effects reflects this. If you do incorporate this, you might want to talk with Duke John and the Sengoku Jidai team first.Hidden trait effects is something we have already discussed internally in the EB project in another context (and know how to do). However, one thing we do not do is "steal" work from other mods. In general, if we know something can be done we will figure out a way to do it ourselves, rather than take from someone else's work, even with permission. We consider it common courtesy.

However, we have a good working relationship with Duke John and our two mods share the spirit of cooperation. We provide assistance to each other, so if this sort of thing is what we would like to do and we cannot find a way to do it, we'll ask. That goes for things in general - we have no wish to reinvent the wheel, so to speak, and if SJ has done something that took a lot of work and effort to figure out, and we would like to do the same, I am sure we will ask for permission to use their work, and I am quite sure they would do the same.


3)I sincerely hope you rework the experiance bonuses from some of the units - it seems a little cheesey that a temple can make all the troops trained in a province more experianced. :dizzy2: Maybe shift those bonuses over to barracks or something, with larger barracks conveying some experiance... But I think most of the experiance in the game should be from hard-earned fighting. :duel: :charge:The entire building bonus system is being reworked. However, keep in mind that often the bonuses are abstractions and not indicative of an actual effect on troops - for instance, giving +1 to experience due to some historic function of a temple does not imply that the temple is actually somehow granting battle experience.

Rest assured though that we have ancient religion experts working on just what sort of benefit these temples would provide for the cities in which they are found and the system will seem more realistic, though of course within the limitations of the game engine.

Alexander the Pretty Good
12-24-2004, 19:01
Thanks, khelvan! All I want for [next] Christmas is Europa Barbarorum! :santa2:

Crazed Rabbit
12-24-2004, 19:56
I read that you are using the 'Homelands' concept, and I had a few questions about that and how you plan to implement it.

Having played WesMod for MTW, I didn't really like the homelands concept in that mod because it meant you couldn't hire any soldiers outside of your starting borders. To me, this seemed somewhat ahistorical. I could understand that it might take time for conquered provinces to assimilate, but perhaps you could have each faction have specific buildings they need to build in a city, like "Roman Stables" which would take 3-5 years or so and not make any units by itself, but inable the player to use preexisting stables in a conquered city. So roman calvary would need a generic stable and the roman stable. This could be used to simulate assimilation and integration, and mean you couldn't instantly retrain units in a captured city (No more "Well, they just killed my family and burnt my house, but I guess I'll go fight against my countrymen for them anyway" for example.)

Or are you planning an having region specific troops, like Celts in Gual, that could only be hired there? Like the homelands thing in WesMod, but if you invaded another faction's lands, you could hire their units, instead of your own. You'd probably still need a generic building you have to build to raise troops, like "Roman Barracks" that would inable all units to be built so there wouldn't be instant retraining (see example above).

Perhaps you could do a mix of the two, where you could build your own units in a different province after building some things, but also be able to hire some original units.

Anyways, keep up the good work!

Crazed Rabbit

Crownsteler
12-24-2004, 21:12
Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions Khelvan and Urnamma. :)



EB will use our own system of recruitment based on the Homelands concept created by, and made popular by, Wes's MedMod for MTW. We have several ex-MedMod members as a part of our team, and this concept has been in the works for a long time in EB, even before RTW came out.

Factions will have fixed unit lists, where appropriate. They will have shared units, where appropriate. Also mercenaries in certain areas, where appropriate.

I will say that the Carthaginians will be able to recruit Iberian units in historically appropriate places, and not, for instance, in Carthage itself.

How accurate we can get depends on how well our theoretical system works in practice. However, we are confident, and testing on this is slated to begin presently.


Okey, good to hear this :) Lets hope it works out well :) But personally, with Carthage, I'd like to be able to train some (light/weak) Gaul troops in Gaul :)



Yes - I believe I have not yet heard of a faction banner/icon that will be kept as-is from the vanilla game. Your banner looks quite nice! However, we are creating our own banners and attempting to keep the style and substance relatively consistent across our factions, and I think work has already been done on the Carthage banner.

I believe you can see a prototype of our Carthage icon concept in the last bit of our screenshots thread - I think Prometheus spilled the beans, so to speak.

I understand, and with the prototype in the screenshot treath you are refering to the lybian spearman screenshots? If so, I like it very much :D and I find it good to see you are going to change it to the horse with the palm icon :)



Faction names have generally stayed English, unless you are referring to the city itself? Cities/provinces are generally using ethnic/culture-specific names from the period where available, and where not, using Greek or Latin where appropriate. As to the city of Carthage, I do not know our specific plans in this regard.

I was refering to the city, I like the name Carthago so much because it is the same as in Dutch ;) (my native language)



Carthage will hold its historical place as a true power in the region. Paramount in this are our expanded map and new provincial holdings, unit balance, and economic resources. Specifically there is far too much detail to go into here. :)

Then I'm looking forward to the release if the mod to see it for myself ;)



I am not sure what you mean by this. Remaking the cities in what way? Changing buildings? Changing the city view? Changing the way city build queues work?

I was refering to the appearince of the city :) But any change you can make to the cities to make it more historicly accurate is good :)



Don't worry, all factions are getting a new building system put in place, with more faction-appropriate buildings.

:) I hope I gave you some information you didn't have yet though ;)


Well, this depends. The suffete himself was a kind of royalty, for his period of election. Also, the old royal palace was the place where the Suffete (which is the latinized version of the word, btw) held court. People's assembly is misleading and sounds too... republican. Carthage could more adequately be called an Oligarchy. The citizens (who were mostly either rich or middle class) made the decisions that the subject populations had to live with.

I agree though, and some name changes will take place. I'm a historian specializing in the near east btw, and Carthage is my pet project. I can assure you they'll get the works as far as being historically correct goes.

Good to hear that such an expert is working on my favorite faction :D:D Do you have any idea on what some of the new names could be (a)



As far as the temple thing... Baal (hammon is superflous, it's just a title..) It's like calling you Jim the King, or something. Baal, Astarte, Tanit (who the carthaginians made a different Goddess than Astarte, for some reason) and Melquart.

Hhmmmm, I thoughed Baal ment Lord and then Hammon would be his name. Oh well, my bad.
And those are the 4 gods Carthage will have in their pantheon?

Thanks again for answering my questions :)

khelvan
12-24-2004, 22:52
Having played WesMod for MTW, I didn't really like the homelands concept in that mod because it meant you couldn't hire any soldiers outside of your starting borders. To me, this seemed somewhat ahistorical. I could understand that it might take time for conquered provinces to assimilate, but perhaps you could have each faction have specific buildings they need to build in a city, like "Roman Stables" which would take 3-5 years or so and not make any units by itself, but inable the player to use preexisting stables in a conquered city. So roman calvary would need a generic stable and the roman stable. This could be used to simulate assimilation and integration, and mean you couldn't instantly retrain units in a captured city (No more "Well, they just killed my family and burnt my house, but I guess I'll go fight against my countrymen for them anyway" for example.)

Or are you planning an having region specific troops, like Celts in Gual, that could only be hired there? Like the homelands thing in WesMod, but if you invaded another faction's lands, you could hire their units, instead of your own. You'd probably still need a generic building you have to build to raise troops, like "Roman Barracks" that would inable all units to be built so there wouldn't be instant retraining (see example above). Our plan is simple - to allow the recruitment of troops where it is historically accurate to do so. If certain troops could be recruited after their region fell under the control of a greater power, those troops will be recruitable in that context in our mod. Mercenaries, regional troops, faction troops, all will have an area where they can be recruited based on historical conditions.

I think you will be pleasantly surprised by how much detail we are able to put into this area of our mod.

khelvan
12-24-2004, 22:58
Okey, good to hear this :) Lets hope it works out well :) But personally, with Carthage, I'd like to be able to train some (light/weak) Gaul troops in Gaul :) See my note above.


I understand, and with the prototype in the screenshot treath you are refering to the lybian spearman screenshots? If so, I like it very much :D and I find it good to see you are going to change it to the horse with the palm icon :)Yes, we are putting a great deal of effort into finding faction-appropriate icons and banners. I think you will enjoy the choices we end up with, including that of Carthage.


I was refering to the city, I like the name Carthago so much because it is the same as in Dutch ;) (my native language)The Carthaginian cities will probably end up in their Phoenician transliteration, if the current vote we are taking stays true to course.

(ik hou van jou? Fear my Dutch!)


Good to hear that such an expert is working on my favorite faction :D:D Do you have any idea on what some of the new names could be (a)We have more than one professional historian working on this mod, including at least one of those crazy guys that gets down in the dirt and digs up the stuff we all go gaga over! :)

All of the factions receive this sort of treatment, and we have members from all over the world who contribute. The mod will be as historically correct as we can make it. And, if someone comes to us with primary evidence that states we have done something wrong, none of us are vain enough not to change it. Our goal is as close to historical accuracy as you can get in this game.

Alexander the Pretty Good
12-25-2004, 00:47
OK - as you may be able to tell, I will have a difficult time waiting for your mod. But could you please use the ModSwitcher program - I already have three installations of RTW on my computer, and it is such a hassle to add more. If need be I will of course make another installation for your esteemed mod, but I would prefer a tiny .rmod file instead! Thank you!

*grovels in anticipation of an awesome mod*

~:cheers:

khelvan
12-25-2004, 20:28
Thank you! We are eagerly looking forward to it as well!

Yes, the creator of the .RMOD format is a member of our team, so our public releases will definitely be in this format.

Divinus Arma
01-01-2005, 01:45
Hi folks. I am thoroughly impressed with the dedication of the modding community. I am looking forward to your work.

RE: Suggestions-

Browsing your team's many postings, I've not seen any mention of decreasing uniformity in the skins of units. While I am not historically educated, I would imagine that many poorer units in classical armies would have had a variety of arms, clothing, armor, war paint, etc. I suspect that duplicating this lack of uniformity would be difficult, but would it be impossible? Currently, some units do have two-three skins per unit. These three skins are (1) the basic element of the unit, (2) the religious figure or standard bearer, (3) the unit leader. Could a unit be comprised of an expanded group of supporting skins? Thus, a peasant unit could have elements carrying pitchforks, torches, axes, shovels, etc. Imagine the possibilities! Dirty, blood-stained roman armor; barbarians with swords & axes and multiple woad designs; etc, etc. I understand that this would probably be a ton of work, but it would be visually impressive and historically accurate.

Secondly, any plans for visible injuries on casualties? Flying limbs and blood stained fields are the truest depiction of this ultra-violent period in human history. Even as an educational tool, how can we omit the horrible reality of war?

Just a few thoughts I've had.

Warmest Regards...

ah_dut
01-01-2005, 01:53
I am the village idiot organiser at EB as opposed to a modder or historian so I may well be incorrect. AFAIK, all people in a unit apart from the leader and standard bearer are identical and must remain so. Also, there is no way to depict visible injuries in this game.

Aymar de Bois Mauri
01-02-2005, 00:31
I am the village idiot organiser at EB as opposed to a modder or historian so I may well be incorrect. HE!HE!HE! :grin: No you're not. You're correct.


AFAIK, all people in a unit apart from the leader and standard bearer are identical and must remain so. Also, there is no way to depict visible injuries in this game.Each unit in RTW is made of copies of a single 3d model. Each 3d model can have as many textures as you wish. As such, you can have a multitude of looks for a unit but not specifically diferent textures within a single unit. The officers (centurions, captains, standard bearers, etc) are independent and are added independently to the unit. They have a max limit of 3 per unit. So, the most variablity you can achieve is: 3 different officers + unit skin = 4 different skins within the same unit.

This for each of the factions that uses this specific unit.

Wikingus
01-06-2005, 10:54
Hi,

I'll just post this here then :)

Whenever I play RTW the Julii faction is extremely reluctant to spread towards Gaul, while the Scipii and the Brutii occupy their spheres of influence quite happily. Is that a common problem? How will this be addressed in EB, even though I know that the Roman families will get a major overhaul.

If I'm the only one with this problem, please ignore my question. :bow:

Aymar de Bois Mauri
01-06-2005, 16:33
Well, from my short experience with vanilla RTW, the Julii are the ones that get by the best. They tend to be the Roman faction that expands sooner and stronger. But this is in the release version, so I don't know what is happening with your campaign. I stoped playing vanilla RTW in October last year... :confused:

As for EB, the Roman factions will get a overhaul but we're still discussing the many possibilities to modify them. So, it is too soon to reply to your question.

SwordsMaster
01-06-2005, 16:36
Another thing that needs to be tweaked is the experience scale.

Yestarday campaign: Brutii, H/N, After battle report:

General : lost 0, killed 5, gains +1 experience. (51men)
Legionary cavalry: lost 1, killed 204, no experience awarded. (80 men).
Archers: lost 0, killed 48, + experience.

I dont think thats fair, specially because the archers were the most experienced unit of them all (3 chevrons). the rest had 1 chev.

khelvan
01-06-2005, 19:52
Excellent suggestion!

If only it weren't hardcoded.

SwordsMaster
01-06-2005, 19:57
Excellent suggestion!

If only it weren't hardcoded.


oh, is it? pity :embarassed:

khelvan
01-06-2005, 20:00
If you can find an exposed portion, we'll happily mod it! Just let me know ;)

Divinus Arma
01-07-2005, 02:08
First, I recognize the focus is not on Rome, but on the need to improve everything non-Roman. However, Regarding Roman unit skins:

Did Roman legions fighting in the North dress warmer in the winter? It seems like a tunic would be quite cold, especially for the supporting combatants like archers and seige engineers. Would they not don additional clothing, such as fur, etc?

Just a thought... forgive my ignorance.

Regards

Wikingus
01-07-2005, 15:18
First, I recognize the focus is not on Rome, but on the need to improve everything non-Roman. However, Regarding Roman unit skins:

Did Roman legions fighting in the North dress warmer in the winter? It seems like a tunic would be quite cold, especially for the supporting combatants like archers and seige engineers. Would they not don additional clothing, such as fur, etc?

Just a thought... forgive my ignorance.

Regards

Yes they did, they used furs and similar, adopting techniques to keep themselves warm from the local population. So towards the end of the Empire with many of the troops being Germans, many units looked more "barbaric" than "Roman" as we would imagine it anyway. :) But that's out of the time frame of RTW anyway.

But I doubt it's possible to implement separate skins for winter time, but I'm not working on the mod, so I don't really know. :charge:

Divinus Arma
01-08-2005, 04:46
If that is the case, and units can be regionally restricted for production; then perhaps legions raised in the colder climates could reflect this.

Thus, raise legions in Germanic regions and a set of observable and distinct uniform alterations (in agreement with history of course) would apply.

This would aid in the depth of experience, similar to that gained by regional titles granted to units I.E. "Legio V Germania" or Hispania, or whatever.

Of course, I am totally oblivious to all things modding, and thus remain awed by the entire process even now. My simple suggestions are only humbly submitted as passing thoughts of mild creativity. My thanks for the tolerance.

Warmest Regards,

Divinus Arma

Wikingus
01-08-2005, 13:08
But won't they change it, so that Roman troops will only be recruitable in Italy?
Then there would be no need to make separate skins. Don't know though.

Aymar de Bois Mauri
01-08-2005, 15:15
Different skins are used to differentiate different faction's units, not the same unit with different clothings. To allow your ideas to work out we need new units that are just recruitable in that region and that have a "fur" skin.

khelvan
01-08-2005, 19:38
Actually, Aymar, is that really the case? RTR, for instance, had different skins for the same unit within the same faction based on the province it was recruited from. Since we now have the ability to define basically an infinite number of recruitment regions we could do this, if we have the time to do the skinning, and it is possible to do it without defining new units.

The problem as I see it is that we can't change the skin based on the season. So if that legion recruited in a northern area is in battle in North Africa in the middle of summer, they will still be wearing furs.

Divinus Arma
01-09-2005, 00:33
...if that legion recruited in a northern area is in battle in North Africa in the middle of summer, they will still be wearing furs.

Great point, Khelvan. I can't help but wonder though, where to strike the balance? I've read through many of your teams discussions on the historical accuracy of naked barbarians (or shirtless, rather). This may be a problem no matter what.

To quote Shigawire:


Don't forget that the Gaesatae was a tribe of mercenaries in Cisalpine Gaul, I don't want to see them being recruitable in Belgae or Britain for example. :p

I understand that much of Shigawire's comments relate to unit training origination location, but it also points out the relevance of climatic-regional unit representation.

It is just as absurd to have fur-clad romans marching around in North Africa as it is to have naked egyptians charging the Celtic northlands.

Also, if I may Quote Aymar de Bois Mauri in the opening of your valiant effort:


To try to make CA improve their rather "approximative" (incorrect, really) depiction of Celts, Britons, Germanics and Dacians in RTW.

Clearly, the intended purpose of EB is historical regional accuracy.

In conclusion, to exclude the climatic-regional alteration of (Roman) uniforms
is to counter the original intent of your project. The question and purpose of your endeavor, my lads, is not where the units will end up. Ultimately, historical integrity will require an acute focus on the unit's region of origination. I might also add that this will contribute significantly to the emersion so many of us crave, as we will have our "favorite units" from various regions!

Warmest regards,

Divinus Arma

P.S. How might I contribute? At the least, I would like to show my support.

QwertyMIDX
01-10-2005, 07:53
Our plan is simple - to allow the recruitment of troops where it is historically accurate to do so. If certain troops could be recruited after their region fell under the control of a greater power, those troops will be recruitable in that context in our mod. Mercenaries, regional troops, faction troops, all will have an area where they can be recruited based on historical conditions.

I think you will be pleasantly surprised by how much detail we are able to put into this area of our mod.

With respect to the homelands system won't restricting where assimilation and integration takes place to where it happened historically give advantages to the more historically successful factions? While the aim of the EB mod is historical accuracy, its goal isn't to make RTW into a historical simulation that merely reenacts history in the manner it happened. After a long period or Roman rule and successful Romanization it would seem only logical for it to be possible to recruit Roman Legions there, as happened, for example in Illyricum after Tiberius’ invasion and its subsequent Annexation.

Would it be possible for the EB mod to extend the period of time during which RTW takes place? I for one would like to be able to play into the 2nd or 3rd centuries A.D and the height of Imperial Rome.

I also find the fact that a bribed army (if its not made up of troops that your faction uses) disperses. Considering the level of mercenary use during the period wouldn’t it be more realistic for them to join your faction as mercenaries supplying you with troops (and a suitably massive upkeep cost). Also, is it possible to increase the cost and difficulty of bribing, and also take into account how close to home the army being bribe is. I would think it would take an incredible amount of money to hire a Germanic warband to attack their own tribal chief but significantly less to fight against a neighbor Gallic one.

Is it possible to reduce the distance to capital penalty? If possible it would seem to make sense that a good road system and a large amount of trade and thriving sea lanes should do something to mitigate this. After all, the Roman road system was almost as important in keeping the Empire together as the Legions.

The system of population and cities in RTW seems to tell us that everyone in the ancient world lived in urban centers. This is of course ridiculous as the vast majority of the population of the ancient world was made up of farmers who lived in the countryside. As such it should be feasible for a city of only 1000 to raise a number of (poorly equipped and trained) solders far in excess of its size. Either the population of cities in RTW is referring to the entire population of the province, in which case squalor would be a notably less pressing issue, or it is referring only to the population of the city proper, and as such the recruitment system seems notably flawed. While this, especially if the later supposition is true, would make little difference in actual game play, I still find it quite irksome.

Finally, sorry about the length of this post, could you briefly explain what EB’s plans for dealing with Roman factions are. It seems both ridiculous and ahistorical to have such private family fiefdoms during the high of the Republic’s power (although it becomes notably more accurate later in Roman history). I would love to at least seem a more unified Roman military uniform (rather than the radically different Purple, Red, Blue and Green) or vanilla RTW (same look different banners perhaps). It would be even nicer to see a unified Rome where 3 different families count as generals and governors and compete for leadership positions dispensed by the senate (of which they are important members). I’m about 99.9% sure that would require a complete recoding of large parts of the game though and will have to wait (fruitlessly I’m sure) for CA to do something about it.

khelvan
01-11-2005, 20:01
With respect to the homelands system won't restricting where assimilation and integration takes place to where it happened historically give advantages to the more historically successful factions? While the aim of the EB mod is historical accuracy, its goal isn't to make RTW into a historical simulation that merely reenacts history in the manner it happened. After a long period or Roman rule and successful Romanization it would seem only logical for it to be possible to recruit Roman Legions there, as happened, for example in Illyricum after Tiberius’ invasion and its subsequent Annexation.I think I may have misstated things. We're not restricting recruitment only to factions that were historically successful. We are, for the most part, making units available where they were raised historically. Granted, some factions will have specific units available to them when conquering other areas (such as the Romans and Carthaginians) that other factions will not, but the fact is that we are not attempting to balance the factions in our mod. Some are simply going to be easier to play.


Would it be possible for the EB mod to extend the period of time during which RTW takes place? I for one would like to be able to play into the 2nd or 3rd centuries A.D and the height of Imperial Rome.I don't believe this has been decided. However, I do not believe we will be extending the date, given the amount of work we would need to do to correctly depict the later armies. We are already struggling against the 300 unit limit, having defined about 250 new units so far.


I also find the fact that a bribed army (if its not made up of troops that your faction uses) disperses.Bribed armies will not simply disperse, except in very limited circumstances. Removing the faction colors is a part of this, as is making the units available to be used (but not recruited, necessarily) by all factions. You will be happy here.


Is it possible to reduce the distance to capital penalty?Not unless you can reverse engineer RTW.exe, change the appropriate hard-coded information, and recompile it. If you can do that, I'll be your best friend! :beam:


The system of population and cities in RTW seems to tell us that everyone in the ancient world lived in urban centers.While you make good points, we can only change what has been exposed for us by CA, and the mechanics of both the squalor system and the city/province depiction are definitely not exposed.


Finally, sorry about the length of this post, could you briefly explain what EB’s plans for dealing with Roman factions are.In short, we have not decided yet. We are discussing and testing several different options.

QwertyMIDX
01-11-2005, 21:18
Well if making the distance to capital pentaly decrease is hardcored (as I assumed it would be) maybe a happiness bonus added to roads and ports would do the trick of representing the effect of efficent transport shrinking the effects of distance.

Aymar de Bois Mauri
01-11-2005, 22:02
Well if making the distance to capital pentaly decrease is hardcored (as I assumed it would be) maybe a happiness bonus added to roads and ports would do the trick of representing the effect of efficent transport shrinking the effects of distance.Nice idea. Really nice...

eadingas
01-11-2005, 22:21
That's a bit redundant. Roads and ports give you money bonus, which in turn allows you to reduce tax levels = makes people happier.
There will be more buildings that help fight unrest - someday, I promise ;) - so distance to capital should have less importance.

QwertyMIDX
01-11-2005, 23:51
You can only lower taxes so far and it really seems like the size of your empire should be mitigated by a good transport system. I really can't see how it's possible to say that Roman roads or Carth's sea lanes didn't reduce the problems of the size of their sprawling empires and the distance of the outlying regions from power.

eadingas
01-12-2005, 01:04
Actually, we don't really fully know what roads do to cities. They 'improve roading', but I'd have to check out Ludus Magna forum to see if it's been researched what 'improved roads' really mean. Maybe they do something else, except just getting more money? Maybe they do reduce unhappiness a bit... I'll have to check on that.

QwertyMIDX
01-12-2005, 01:12
Sounds good to me, thanks for taking me seriously and best of luck with the research, I'd for the transport system to have a more unifying effect on an Empire than in Vanilla game play.

Tanit
12-14-2005, 04:16
Hello. Though I'm new on this site and I'm only 17, I have been thoroughly interested in classical history for most of my life. I happened to find this site by accident in my own quest for Rtw realism. Coincidentally, I had just been making an interesting list of things, units, used in history that are not prevelant in the game and should be. I humbly present my list of historically accurate units to which I can add inumerable details should they be requested.

Ships:
Pentekonter
Hepteres (Spetireme)
Liburnian

Siege Engines:
Sambuca
The Fire Raiser
Helepolis

Race Specific:

Greek:
Sacred Band
Elephants
War elephants

Macedon:
hypaspists
gastraphetes
ballistas

Ptolmeic Empire:
elephants

Seleucid Empire:
hypaspists

Carthage:
chariots (including four horse ones)
Temple of Moloch

Gaul:
chariots
Nobles (phalanx/spearmen)

Germany:
javelin armed light cavalry

Romans:
auxilia cavalry archers
roman cataphracts
(these two may be a little out of time frame)

Mercenaries:
Thracian peltasts, slingers and javelinmen
Libyan chariots
Etruscans
Mamertines
Scythian foot archers

Tanit
12-14-2005, 04:22
Oh, and I agree with the transport system having an effect on unrest. Knowing that retribution is swift has an extradorniary effect on many unruly people.

Moros
12-14-2005, 13:05
ik hou van jou? Fear my Dutch
Why do you always say that! It scares me you know. ~;)

but at least you're not saying: je bent een hete mama.
cause that would completly scare the hell out of me!

Reverend Joe
12-14-2005, 17:25
Hello. Though I'm new on this site and I'm only 17, I have been thoroughly interested in classical history for most of my life. I happened to find this site by accident in my own quest for Rtw realism. Coincidentally, I had just been making an interesting list of things, units, used in history that are not prevelant in the game and should be. I humbly present my list of historically accurate units to which I can add inumerable details should they be requested.

Ships:
Pentekonter
Hepteres (Spetireme)
Liburnian

Siege Engines:
Sambuca
The Fire Raiser
Helepolis

Race Specific:

Greek:
Sacred Band
Elephants
War elephants

Macedon:
hypaspists
gastraphetes
ballistas

Ptolmeic Empire:
elephants

Seleucid Empire:
hypaspists

Carthage:
chariots (including four horse ones)
Temple of Moloch

Gaul:
chariots
Nobles (phalanx/spearmen)

Germany:
javelin armed light cavalry

Romans:
auxilia cavalry archers
roman cataphracts
(these two may be a little out of time frame)

Mercenaries:
Thracian peltasts, slingers and javelinmen
Libyan chariots
Etruscans
Mamertines
Scythian foot archers

~;) Don't worry.

Ludens
12-15-2005, 15:34
Hello Tanit, welcome to the Org! If you don't want to escape the eye of the moderator in charge of promotions, it may be wise to post an introduction in the Hail New Members (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=57672) topic in the Entrance Hall.

The topic you revived is almost a year old, and since then the unit list have been probably been finalized. Also, I think most of your suggestions are already in place. If you are interested in the units featured in EB, have a look at the previews listed in this thread (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=51037) and the screenshots in this (unfortunatly outdated) thread (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=46101). There are also some unit previews in this thread (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=55373).

Reverend Joe
12-15-2005, 23:06
If you don't want to escape the eye of the moderator in charge of promotions, it may be wise to post an introduction in the Hail New Members (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=57672) topic in the Entrance Hall.

...I was supposed to do that? :embarassed: Oops...

~D

Ludens
12-16-2005, 12:49
...I was supposed to do that? :embarassed: Oops...

~D
~D

Times change...

Moros
12-16-2005, 14:38
...I was supposed to do that? :embarassed: Oops...

~D
I think I'v never done that either...:san_smiley:

Simmons
12-17-2005, 01:02
Well you don't have to from what I read in the FAQ its just one way to do things.

Ludens
12-17-2005, 15:49
Hey, I never did it either. It's not compulsory or anything. But some months ago the Guild returned to the old system where junior members have access to a limited number of fora only, the most important one being the Entrance Hall. The moderators who deal with promotions are mainly active there (though I think they also keep an eye on the other JM-accesible fora).

Jebus
12-17-2005, 17:36
So there are fora I can't get into?

How elitist.

Simmons
12-17-2005, 18:08
So there are fora I can't get into?

How elitist.
Can't

No I would imagine you can earn the right.

Ludens
12-17-2005, 18:47
So there are fora I can't get into?

How elitist.
I was talking about junior members.

Sheep
12-18-2005, 01:33
and the screenshots in this (unfortunatly outdated) thread (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=46101).

I can no longer update that thread as I am now a member of EB. Someone else could if they wanted, but I don't really see the point as the mod will probably be released in open beta form (thereby rendering the thread unnecessary) before you managed to get everything together.