General

[hoggy]

Post here for general questions, ideas etc

[shifty157]

Just wandering. Now that you have the larger hanya is it possible to have them hit 2 or even 3 men with one swing? Perhaps coding it as an area effect? Just speculation.

[hoggy]

Hopefully yes, not looked into it yet but I think units have an area effect? Otherwise they have a charge bonus which throws men upo into the ir like cavalry so I'll be adding that.

[Raziaar]

Can't you mod into the unit some qualities that an elephant has? Even after the charge is over with an elephant, their normal attacks can launch multiple units into the air I think? Or is it just one?

[shifty157]

I just had an interesting idea hoggy. Have the 'peasant' unit for each faction take 0 turns to build. That way you can train as many peasants as you want in just 1 turn. This would make for interesting tacticle desicion. Whats more people might actually consider training them. Just for the simple fact that you could essentially mobilize the entire population of a city in 1 turn. Also when you think how much training does a unit of peasants actually need? They dont need any. Basically youre just handing them a cheap spear and sending them off to die. Using this thought it might take a day to outfit a unit of peasants. Considering how each turn is 6 months you can outfit a lot of peasants. This wouldnt upset any gameplay as peasants are still peasants and any semitrained unit can still cut through them. In the early game youll be severely limited by the population of the city so you probably wont be able to or wont want to mobilize more than 2 or 3 units of peasants. This would effectively not allow any rushing. From what i can think up this sounds like a really good idea to me. Taking the idea further you could then train town militia in 1/2 turn or 2 units per turn. The ultra elite untis could take up to 4 turns to train. The more i think about having peasants take 0 turns to train the more i like the idea.

[RedSilver]

Ekk!

Mass meat bags, god know's I wouldn't want to clean up after that battle.

@ hoggy what tools do You use to model and skin and such?

Many Thanks.

[DragoonXXIV]

Actually shifty, i'm not positive but i think that you can't train units in under a turn, plus if you could mobilize your entire population you can essentially strip a city of it's inhabitants and make it useless to capture. And while peasents don't need very much training (maybe a week to show 'em which is the pointy end) you still have to make the spears and get a officer to lead 'em and feed them and all the other logistical problems assosicatied with large armies. In truth i like the idea of quickly training them but i think it's unfeasible.

[TigerVX]

Actually, you can make them train in 0 turns. You still have to end the turn for them to produce, but you can make all 9 in one turn. Again, you can't train your entire populus since there is a limit of 9 training slots for you to use, so the max of men you could train is 9 peasents each turn.

[DragoonXXIV]

Ah, sorry, forgot about the 9 cap on training, still you can use it to migrate a chunk of the population.

[RedSilver]

Just wondering how you Family Tree will work, are you going for Vanilla's style (your ruling family's er..well..family.) or maybe something new?

[Lief]

I like the peasant idea. That way you could quickly draft a large, albeit weak and low morale army to fight way. Or, you can use it to abandon a city and migrate to one of your other cities.

[hoggy]

Peasant idea sounds good, we could give it a go and playtest it. Not sure about plans for the family yet I've not really thought about it, i guess it depends what would work best for all the factions.

[wlesmana]

I like the ability to mobilize your peasants for defense.
To limit their use and the zerging tactic, what if their salary is really, really large making it unfeasible to train 9 of them and keep them for the next turn? So they'd get trained up in an emergency, then before the turn is up, they'd have to be disbanded.

[blindfaithnogod]

i think if you made thier upkeep high, this would encourage you to only use them for an emergency, rather than initial cost.

[blindfaithnogod]

oh wait thats what you said. hahah ~D

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

I know it's fairly hardcoded, but did you ever think of how demons have familes, hoggy? Will it just be assumed that they are led by patriarchal head-demons, or human sorcerers who have families that lead (I guess through conjuring) hordes of demons???

Sorry if this has been discussed before. Keep up the good work - and don't rush it (like Rome: Total War grumble grumble...). ~:cheers:

[Kageka]

I also have a few questions/thoughts about the demons.

The fantasy Asia strategy/war board game me and my friends made (I mentioned it a few posts ago) had several demon factions. We mostly devided the demons into smaller factions due the way the looked and what kind of "realm" we thought they fitted into. Not only that, we also found out that except that it looked better it also gave every demon faction a more unique look and strategical profile. As I mentioned we had THE RESTLESS wich consisted of demons, spirits, beings and beasts that we found to be creepy, haunting, ghoulish or/and ghostlike. It was ruled by an evil ancient sorcerer/mystic and his disciples. THE LEGION consisted of demons, spirits, beasts and beings that that we thought to be more devilish/hellish, beastlike, cacophonic or/and brutal (such as Four armed Demons, Oni etc.). We also had a Cult-like faction of cultists, fanatics and outlaws. The cultists obeyed a godess much like Kali (we called the faction "the Bandit swarm" or "the Gathering" as mentioned before).

I don't know if you like the idea of making two sub-factions of the demon faction. But as it looks now you already have (nearly) enough troops to make two quite different-looking factions... at least I think so.

Suggestions on the troops already made...

Demon faction 1: The Ghost realm
Zombie Ashigaru
Undead Samurai
Ghost Geishas
Noh Demons
Floating Hags
Beast Riders
Demon Samurai (or maybe Kagemusha/Ghost general?)

Demon faction 2: The Demon realm
Bakemono
Hanaya
Snow monkeys
Wang Liangs
Shishi Riders
Copperdragon

The Rokurokubi would fit in both of the factions. Maybe only wearing different colored robes to sort them out (red and black robes for the demons and ghost-white and black robes for the ghosts).

I personally think that the Kappa-troops, Tengu Camelrider and the Basket Ronin would fit better as mercenary troops.. I can't really motivate it thou.


Well thats just what I think.


Any way, as I (and many before me have) said before: this mod will be the coolest mod/totalwar-game ever. It's about time that somebody make a descent strategic wargame that take place in Asia (well at least a mythologic/fantasy Asia).

Hoggy is the man ~:cheers:

[DragoonXXIV]

I think splitting the demons is a question of how large they start. If they start with as much force as others, meaning they can really only expand one way, they it's best for them to be a single faction. However if they have more initial troops than any other faction and can immediately expand in several directions than it's better for them to be 2 different factions, that way they can trip each other up i.e. one head not knowing what the other is doing.

On the matter of demon family tree, maybe it's less a family and more one head demon, his disciples/favoraites in training (babies), then when they mature/complete thier training they assume positions of power and serve as hiers if something 'unfortunate' should happen to their boss and they have to step in and take coomand.

Also although R:TW wasn't as great as it could have been, i still think CA did an excellent job and people are bad mouthing it too much. Remember CA still made the engine and this style of game was thier creation in the first place.

[DragoonXXIV]

Also could someone please tell me if there are any differences in units between Japan 1 & 2 and/or China 1 & 2

[shifty157]

The demon faction should not be split. I debated a few weeks ago and i came to the conclusion that the demons must be a continual wave that sweeps over everything in its path. Seperate demon factions would only hinder this and make them easier to defeat. The demons must be united. Anything else would be going against the flavor of the game.

[hoggy]

Alexander - not really sure yet. I think it would definitely make more sense if the Demons come to power by simply bumping off their predecessor. A survival of the most demonic. It'll essentially be down to the limitations of modding RTW in the end.

Kageka - I have to agree with shifty here, one big steamrolling Demon army is the way to go for now. If it proves unplayable we can always split them later.

Dragoon - The two factions will essentially be the same, at a later date i might add some specific units but the main difference will be their starting positions ie one will be relatively easy, one very hard.
I agree with you about RTW too. I am going to be doing some tweaking of gameplay seen in other mods but the main focus of the mod is to change the content not the game. If people don't like RTW it is unlikely they will like this mod as I won't be rewriting the game

[Kageka]

Ok. Well I see the point. One almighty demon army is more frightening than a myriad of smaller ones. I guess the cacaphonic and chaotic feeling of the Demon faction is more solid if the demons differ from each other very much (both in apperance and behavior).

But still, there seem to be only one evil faction in the game (I don´t know what you have in mind for all of those human factions though). Will there be some "evil" cult-faction? Some cult that indirectly act/work as agents for the Demon army or to some renegade demon/dark god/dark godess/spirit?

[shifty157]

You could perhaps try doing this as rebel demon armies that just appear in random places at random times. RTW already does this. The armies wouldnt pose any major threat. Just an annoyance. I guess the armies would mostly be composed of the undead (zombie ahigaru/samuri, hags, etc). I guess that would work. Not quite an entirely new faction but perhaps a bit more flavor for the game.


Also is there a way to allow no diplomatic relations with the demons. Or at least no bribing. I guess you could have other diplomatic ties though because oni and such are intelligent. There would have to be major consequences though for diplomaitc ties with the demons. Like if you allied with them then every other human faction would declare war on you. Stuff like that. But bribing demon armies is right out.

[Al Khalifah]

At least in R:TW unlike M:TW, if a human faction bribed a demon faction then the units would just disband rather than join the humans. Even still though, what would demons do with money? So if possible diplomatic relations with demons should not be possible.

Now here's an idea. Could the human factions be able to acquire 'turned-demons.' I mean, its not like all the demons have to be evil - some demons might be capable of some degree of self control. They could be like elephants in terms of AI, in that, they will fight for the human faction because they want to, but if it all gets too much they just go on a general rampage - because deep down inside they are still demons.

[DragoonXXIV]

Al Khalifah: maybe it's less 'turned' demons and more demon mercanaries at the borderlands, looking to cause some mischief... any mischief.

That aside, i think random armies of undead appearing would be pretty cool and it would fit into the idea of the mod.

[blindfaithnogod]

i think i agree with the rebel armies being demon. with one little change, make it happen only in the provinces that surround the original demon lands. i think, though, that this would have to make the rebel provinces around that area demon rebels no matter what. so maybe not such a good idea.

but i do like the mecenary idea as well
:pimp:

[Kageka]

I have two questions here:


1. Gunpowder
Will there be some sort of gunpowder weapons? If not mortars, big cannonsand arqebus, will there at least be blackpowder filled claybowls/ironflasks? Bamboo stick rifles? Rockets? Smaller types of cannons?


2. Non-human factions
Is there any plan to include some faction consisting of non-human beings/creatures (excluding the demon faction)?

I got one idea here and it may sound cheezy at start... Why not have an army of southern asian animal spirits, animal semi-demons and actual animals?
The faction could be led by a race of ape men and thus be called HANUMAN after the ape/monkey god in hindu mythology (or SUN WUKONG from chinese mythology).
http://www.sjc-serbia.com/download/hanuman.jpg
http://deepak.portland.co.uk/images/hanuman.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/posmandir/hanuman.jpg
http://www.indianink.net/cards/hanuman.gif
http://www.swamishyam.org/hanuman-deco.jpg
http://www.warriorprincess.com/seasonfour/Ep84_TheWay/hanuman.jpg
http://www.pilgrimage-india.com/gifs/lord-hanuman.jpg
http://www.holymtn.com/gods/HAN-3med.jpg
http://www.ape-o-naut.org/famous/famous/members/images/hanuman.jpg



HANUMAN KINGDOM ARMY LIST
- Warrior hanuman (nearly naked, bronze/gold bracers/neckles, open bronze helmets, short spears)

- Hanuman bowmen (like above but armed with white shortbows and no helmets)

- Késari warriors (bigger, more buff, armed with two-handed bronze mace or club)

- Anjana guard (more armour, wear mask helmets http://www.thaimyway.com/article/Hanuman/Hanuman4t.jpg, )

- Old monkey wanderers (cloth and long braided white hair and fur, armed with the indian martial whip-like sword *forgot the name*)

- Hanuman templar guardians (ornamated and more armor than the hanuman warriors, also armed with bronze mace or club)

- Serpent spirits (looks like regular great python but alot bigger, demonic and fights for the hanuman kingdom)

- Tiger spirits (looks like regular tigers but alot bigger,demonic and fights for the hanuman kingdom)

- Hanuman Tiger riders (hanuman warriors armed with schimitar and small shield, ridning on bengali tigers)

- Royal Tiger cavalry (hanuman templar guarde riding on great white tigers)

- Jungle Beasts (hanuman bowmen riding on jungle elephants)


Maybe add some human southern/jungle tribes whom have chosen to fight for the Hanuman due border/territorial feuds with the Krishnapur.

I don't know if this would fit into the Blue Lotus world, but I think it would add some extra spice if there was a neutral/good faction mainly based of non-humans in the game. They could be a non-playable that just inhabit some regions, making them more less powerfull as an army but more mystical and enigmatic.

Just an idea.

[shifty157]

So what youre saying is to take the snow monkeys out of the demon army and make them their own faction? Its an interesting idea. One worth consideration i guess. Maybe put them in the lower left coner of the map. South of the Demons and across the 'river' from the indians. That area seems a bit bare. Make the entire region very mountainous and covered in snow year-round. Give them a huge advantage while fighting in snow. etc etc.


On gunpowder i think there was a semi discussion considering large ornate cannons for the chinese. It kinda died off though. I think they could be included on the conditions that a) they are very inaccurate (much like the flaming onager missiles in normal rtw) and b) there is a small chance that they can backfire and explode destroying the cannon and everyone around it (i think this would be possible). I think that would add to the flavor rather than detract from it. It would require alot of work though because there would be so many new animations to create.

As for other gunpowder weapons. I dont think any others should be included. At least not without careful consideration.

[shifty157]

Sorry about the double post.


I was looking through the old screenshots again when i noticed the Kappa elephant riders (http://hoggy.metw.net/other/elephant4a.jpg). Seeing as how these are demon armies shouldnt the elephants be twisted and demonic as well? Darker hide maybe even black. Another set of tusks. Evil symbols painted onto them. I dunno. Just an idea if you find some extra time.

:dizzy2:

[Sheep]

I know it's fairly hardcoded, but did you ever think of how demons have familes, hoggy? Will it just be assumed that they are led by patriarchal head-demons, or human sorcerers who have families that lead (I guess through conjuring) hordes of demons???

I think the ruling family should be demons, and leadership changes could be explained as a powerful demon (the faction 'heir') killing off the current ruler and usurping his power.

So instead of the dialog box popping up to tell you your faction leader had died, it would say that a new leader had seized power. Is there a way to make this message different for the demon faction than the human factions which I assume would have normal ruling families?

[HolsteinCow]

Which 3 factions will be under control of the monks?

[blindfaithnogod]

the monks will be replacing the romans. ~:cheers:

[bthizle1]

May I just say that you are by far the best modeller/skinner I have ever seen hoggy.

[hoggy]

I'm hoping to have the rebels and mercenaries made up of demon/special units dependant on region. eg. Ronin and Yakuza gangs in some areas others will be specialist neutral demon types. Kageka's Hanuman will be amongst these as will a number of surprise units so you never know what you'll come across or be able to hire for your army.

Kageka - no gunpowder but there may be a special firelance unit for the Chinese if I can get it to work.

[Kageka]

Sykotyk Rampage
I read on the 'Blue Lotus dev team' that you will handle the music for the mod.
Will you write your own music for the game? (that would be really cool). Or will you search for already writen traditional music for each faction? Maybe even borrow the music from Shogun?

[Sykotyk Rampage]

Hi Kageka,

It is being investigating the exact number of music/sound effect files to be replaced (and whether they can be).

Music will be old traditional Asian. We will (depends on time constraints and the amount needed) create music specific to the game requirements from traditional instrument samples and what instruments are in my studio/friends.

i.e. game intro, battle music, map screen, demons are coming, - so run because they are going to rip out your entrails and eat your first born, (which I will write from scratch just because they deserve it) etc

We will also place new specific sound effects, Demon screams, and whatever else as needed and whether it is possible.

SKR

[Kageka]

Ok that sounds nice. Why I am asking is because I am a sucker for traditional asian music. I especially like mongolian music and tibetan music. I love throat singing, such a vivid and powerfull singing technique.

The demon music, will it be a mix of different asian music cultures interpret in a dark and chaotic way? Or will it be something "never heard of before"? *curious*

[Big_John]

ha.. i read Sykotyk as "sick-o-tick" instead of 'psychotic'.. i found that funny, thought i'd share.

anyway, the mongolians should definitely get some throat singing music (tuvan singers are better than mongolians, imo). also, the instrumental music of throat-singing groups like huun-huur-tu, chirgilchin, etc would make for good campaign map music, imo.

here are some samples of overtone singing:
http://khoomei.com/spec.htm (click on the spectrograms)
http://www.ubu.com/ethno/soundings/tuva.html (note: the descriptions are mixed up)
http://khoomei.com/vids.htm (quicktime vids)

here's a funny story read for kids i guess, but the music in the background is tuvan, no overtone singing (it's realaudio)
http://www.scs-intl.com/trader/camel.ram

just some info:
http://www.cc.jyu.fi/~sjansson/throat.htm
http://www.fotuva.org/index.html
http://www.personal.psu.edu/users/j/n/jnd126/mongolia.html

[Sykotyk Rampage]

Hi,

Big John that is the funniest interpretation of Sykotyk, but it can be read like that. LOL

Thanks for the links.

Kageka
The throat singing is amazing harmonics and reverberation, to have that ability is dynamic. It is an ability/style that numerous "tribal cultures" have. We have lost that ability/interest thanks/sadly to the invention of the MOOG/synth. I have samples, will it be used, I don't know, we are not that far yet.


The demon music will be nothing heard before but with Asian influences/style. I am foregoing instruments. Unless the sounds of bones being smash, skulls as drums, fire, screams, unearthly moans, death chants, flesh being seared in a cacophony of rage counts. Of course all to a very nice 5/4 time.

Really I don’t know yet, just not that far. But that is the direction I am leaning but it is up to Hoggy, Demon Lord, Master of the Abyss, and Eternal Guardian of the Blue Lotus. LOL

SKR

[Kageka]

Huun-huur-tu plays wonderful music. I don't know the correct names of the musical instrument they use, but they seem to use som sort of violin, jew's harp, drum and some bell-like instruments. I will play as the Mongolian faction just for the music man. ~:)

[Sheep]

The throat singing is amazing harmonics and reverberation, to have that ability is dynamic. It is an ability/style that numerous "tribal cultures" have. We have lost that ability/interest thanks/sadly to the invention of the MOOG/synth. I have samples, will it be used, I don't know, we are not that far yet.

SAMPLES???

You mean you're not going to learn how to do it yourself?

That's weak, man.

[Big_John]

seriously, i could khoomei in a day, kargyraa in about a week, and, well, my sygyt still needs work (but i don't really practice anymore :sad:).

kageka: the main instruments in tuvan music are the igil (a kind of fiddle with sympatheic strings), the doshpuluur (a 2-stringed lute that's strummed like a guitar), the byzaanchy (another fiddle with a permanently-looped bow), the khomuz (a mouth-harp, aka jew's-harp), and shaman drums (i don't know what those are called though).

[Kageka]

Sheep
Hey man don't be so harsh ~;) . You don't learn how to write several different styles of traditional asian music just like that. I think it would be smart to actually interpret already made songs just to keep it authentic. It takes many years to master traditional music. So you can't crave him to create a set of unique song following the traditional rules and techniques of the displayed music culture.

That's whatI think and believe. But I may be all wrong.

No mather what I think that this mod will be incredible and fantastic.



Sykotyk Rampage
One question to Sykotyk Rampage: If there will be a Tibetan faction (it was mentioned before), how will you co-operate with the soaring sub-base monk chanting? Will the otherworthly voices act in the back drop (and therefor be sampled) or will you actually try to find som singer that master the technique?

[Kageka]

Big John
Thanks about the info.

So you can actually throat-sing and use overtone/reverbation the way the steppe cultures' musicians does? I am imprest.

Me my self have played yridaki/djalupu (aka didjeridu/didgeridoo) for about six years. I believe there is some resembelance (similar thinking) between didjeridu and throat-singing. Seem to work the same tone base, both are droning and captures several "different tones" at one.

Know any site, book or such where I could studdy these techniques?

[Big_John]

yeah, i can throat-sing kageka.. but it's mostly limited to imitation of tuvans, i'm not inventing any songs or anything. also, i'm not what you'd call skilled at it or anything ~D

overtone singing uses the same principle as didjeridoo, namely, to use a resonance chamber to create, well, overtones. the kargyraa style (also called chant style, b/c it's essentially what tibetan monks do also) of overtone singing bears the most resemblance to the didj. i played a didj a bit in college, but i didn't have the cheeks for circular breathing ~;)

those "info" sites i posted (http://www.cc.jyu.fi/~sjansson/throat.htm, http://www.fotuva.org/index.html, http://www.personal.psu.edu/users/j...6/mongolia.html) should have something regarding learning throat-singing.. i just learned by listening to CDs and trying to imitate it; works for some people i guess.

check here:http://www.fotuva.org/music/theory.html

EDIT: ha, i decided to prove it to you! yikes.mp3 (http://01files.com/download.php/2076848336yikes.mp3.txt)
like i said, i'm not talented or anything! :dizzy2:
i think you have 72 hrs to hear the magnificence before it's deleted.

[Kageka]

Well I think youre good , I haven't heard anyone doing it live/IRL. No but seriously, I find the technique good.

Btw thanks for the links, Im going to try to learn the technique. :help:

I know the circular breathing and I think I can handle most of the basic techniques. Played live with my friends industrial/NIN-influenced band. That was a hoot ~:)

Well Im not going to write more on this off-topic post I started *sorry guys*.
Anyways, I hope the music and sounds will be as fantastic

[justmeandthedog]

How bout a zerg hydralisk for the monsters =P

[Big_John]

OMGZERGRUSH!!! ~:eek: ~:eek: ~:eek: ~:eek:

[Burns]

Hey Big John: Necessity is the mother of invention :charge:

[DragoonXXIV]

So demon peasants = zerglings? I wonder if you can find a way to give them the adrenaline upgrade. Actually what always bothered me about SC was that hydralisks had those big claws, but never used them.

All that aside, i am once again impressed by the scope and detail of this project. This is the first mod i've seen that actually wanted to entirely redo the music. Bravo.

[Sheep]

Sheep
Hey man don't be so harsh ~;) . You don't learn how to write several different styles of traditional asian music just like that. I think it would be smart to actually interpret already made songs just to keep it authentic. It takes many years to master traditional music. So you can't crave him to create a set of unique song following the traditional rules and techniques of the displayed music culture.

That's whatI think and believe. But I may be all wrong.

You're not wrong. I just forgot to put the [/sarcasm] tag at the end, I guess.
~D

[Big_John]

Hey Big John: Necessity is the mother of invention :charge: ~:confused: i don't get it..

[shifty157]

hey hoggy im not sure if youve seen this.
Section Sea (http://www.stratcommandcenter.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=3055&st=0)

Theyve progressed quite a bit but theyre still pretty far from a final working version (if it works that is). Regardless i think it might be a good idea to keep an eye on this. Its looking pretty good.

[shifty157]

sorry for the double post.

Go to this link instead. (http://www.stratcommandcenter.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=3055&st=120)

It starts at the end but youll get the idea.

Sea battles would be amazing if merlin can pull them off.

[hoggy]

looks interesting, we'll have to keep an eye on that.

[Paul Peru]

~:confused: i don't get it..
Well, there are several mothers of invention. They played with Zappa.
If necessity is the mother of invention, then The Necessities are The Mothers of Invention. Then consider the term "bear necessities". They who bear necessities must be the mothers thereof. If these are The Inventions, of whom I have never heard (unless they are pieces by Bach) then I'm really far out. Family relations can be complex these days. "I'm my own grampaw" as someone is known to have sung. However it's the constipational right of every citizen wristwatch owner to keep and arm bears. How true that is.

[Paul Peru]

I think the ruling family should be demons, and leadership changes could be explained as a powerful demon (the faction 'heir') killing off the current ruler and usurping his power.

So instead of the dialog box popping up to tell you your faction leader had died, it would say that a new leader had seized power. Is there a way to make this message different for the demon faction than the human factions which I assume would have normal ruling families?
I'm looking forward to trying a bit of scripting...
Say.. the leader demon should be the one with highest stars or influence(=evil?)

at end of turn
if some demon is more kick-ass than leader then
kill current leader
appoint new leader
display message about leader-change.
perhaps spawn new family member
else all-righty, then

Not sure if I'm able to "loop through" the characters to check who's the baddest..
There is an attribute to make a character live forever, I think. Not sure if this goes for combat as well as old age etc.

[Big_John]

Well, there are several mothers of invention. They played with Zappa.
If necessity is the mother of invention, then The Necessities are The Mothers of Invention. Then consider the term "bear necessities". They who bear necessities must be the mothers thereof. If these are The Inventions, of whom I have never heard (unless they are pieces by Bach) then I'm really far out. Family relations can be complex these days. "I'm my own grampaw" as someone is known to have sung. However it's the constipational right of every citizen wristwatch owner to keep and arm bears. How true that is.oh ok, i get it now.. you're dead wrong, btw.

[Paul Peru]

oh ok, i get it now.. you're dead wrong, btw.
I suspected as much. ~:)

[dark_shadow89]

hi hoggy and team,

firstly, i must say excellent work!!!

my suggestion is that there be a vietnam faction occupying ithe indochina region. They could be vassels of the china faction, as Han china did rule over vietnam for like 1000 years. their culture and units, etc, would be very similar to chinese culture and units (due to the 1000 years of chinese rule) except for the fact that they used war elephants.

thats all, again, great work guys

cheers,
dark_shadow89

[soibean]

hoggy you are amazing I honestly dont know how you turn out such beautiful models...
I've noticed how much you've progressed over the past few months and Ive been wondering, are you nearing a beta release or maybe, just maybe, a full release anytime soon?

[hoggy]

dark_shadow - Vietnam faction sounds good. Might possibly add them at a later date but for now we're just concentrating on the current set up. Once we've done a release with those factions we may add more.

soibean - I think a release is still a long way off. There are still alot of units to be built and we'd like to release something reasonably together rather than something which will disappoint. We'll continue to post progress though and keep everybody up to date and hopefully that will keep people interested while we progress.

[Myrddraal]

Hey, I though of a unit you could do: Firework men.

Have you seen the thread where they worked out how to make flaming javelins? The flame appears at the base of the javelin, making it look like a rocket. You could make a new model for a firework as a javelin, make it really long ranged, add the fire to then end, give it an area of effect, and there you go, a firework unit for the Chinese which burns the enemy.

Maybe they could have one or two fireworks only per man?

[blindfaithnogod]

i hadnt seen that. could you direct me/us to that. i like to see how they did that. thanks.

[shifty157]

It looks pretty cool.

http://img142.exs.cx/img142/1627/flamjav57gq.jpg (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=43671)

[blindfaithnogod]

thats awesome. that would be a fun unit. ~D

[tai4ji2x]

i'm just a lurker of this mod, so i don't know if this was explained before, but i was looking at the screenshots, and thought that the japanese swords (and the chinese sabres) aren't really "curved" enough. is there a reason for this?

[shifty157]

hey hoggy. Im not sure youve seen this already or if it affects you too much but i figured i should post it regardless.

Sprite Generator (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=44180)

[blindfaithnogod]

yep we've seen it. but thanks for the heads up. and we will definately be using it.
EDIT: ive just created the new sprites for the akagi clan. its exciting to see the units remane the same color at a distance. :smug2:

[dark_shadow89]

dark_shadow - Vietnam faction sounds good. Might possibly add them at a later date but for now we're just concentrating on the current set up. Once we've done a release with those factions we may add more.

soibean - I think a release is still a long way off. There are still alot of units to be built and we'd like to release something reasonably together rather than something which will disappoint. We'll continue to post progress though and keep everybody up to date and hopefully that will keep people interested while we progress.

cool....!!!! If u want, i could help out with research for them once u decide to create the faction...

as always, great work and keep it up!

cheers, dark_shadow89

[hoggy]

Moved: sorry Combine, just trying not to create too many new threads if possible

Combine Soldier Posted:

It pretty obvious what this thread is about. I decided not to bother the devs with PM's, as you guys probably get a million, and will see the suggestion just as well here.

This mod has one HUGE thing going for it, not being restricted by realism. Most importantly, terrain. Im not sure how restricted you guys are as far as map making(battle maps) but this is a good opportunity to make some interesting maps to go with the fantasy theme.

I want to see more interesting maps than in RTW. I want to see hills, trees, fog, rain and stuff more often. But more specifically, I want to see interesting architechture.

Things like huge mountain ranges, flanked by other mountains or coasts which create a natural bottle neck. Think bridge battle, but without the birdge. Stuff like that. More interesting cities, like MTW and STW. Hill cities, instead of always being on flat ground.

The posibilities are endless. I want to recreate thermopylae style battles without always having to choose a bland flat bridge as the closest thing.
Massive impassible forests, with tight spots in the middle. Forrest on hills, with heavy rain. Anything but the boring flatlad, or hilly land with no trees, or trees with no hills. Maps in RTW bore the hell out of me.

These are just suggestions, obviously anything can be done because the mod is not historically based. Like I said, I dont know what restrictions you guys fac as far as mapping, but I would reallly like to see something that inspires me, or challenges my army when I deploy them. I want thermopylae.

By no mean are they the only posibilities, just ideas. The could be coasts littered with dead trees or black forests for demon lands. Hilly forest filled lands with tight spots for human nations. land that have villages as eye candy instead of to fight over. Peasent houses.

Anyway, enough ranting, I think I have desribed what im talking about, interesting maps, full stop. Keep up the good work hoggy, loving it. Lets here it for RTW, moddability, and the guys making it happen.

[hoggy]

A lot of good ideas there Combine. Battlefields are derived from the location of armies on the strategic map but we have tried to set up passes and bottlenecks etc. We'll hopefully be editting all the battle models to suit the game ie the city, walls etc but will always be constrained by the game engine (no bad thing). It would definitely be good to do a few custom environments in thermopylae style for custom battles.

[shifty157]

Are you planning on creating any "historical" battles? Or am i thinking too far ahead.

[randomhero210]

I agree. Rome had plenty of plains battles. On top of what you mentioned Hoggy, I'd like to see some villages. I mean the major cities aren't the only inhabited places around. They'd be deserted, so maybe even show that they were raided by the Demons. Villagers with spears in their bellies, their heads removed and the like would be great set pieces.

[Etwmodders]

Just a few thoughts

1 if the demons are this all powerful team that are very hard to fight and have a great starting possision, don't you think that there should be some disadvantage to playing as them? this may have already been mentioned, but it just came to mind. maybe like having rebelous population?

2 would it be possible to make custom strat map terain for the demons? like maybe lakes and rivers of fire. just an idea.

3 i may have missed it, but are the objectives gonna be like the same 50 teratories, or will you guys make your own ones?

great work btw

[blindfaithnogod]

1. sounds like a good idea. we havent really concentrated to much effort on the gameplay yet. mostly weve just been working to change the appearance of the game. but we are definately open to new ideas, and suggestions.

2. i think it would be possible.

3. right now i dont think you change that as of now. maybe with an expansion......................

[Abokasee]

got a good idea

I Think the deamon horde should have wraith(gnost) and cultist's(sort of like a monk only is very evil and worships evil)

[Abokasee]

i think a disavangtage for the deamon horde should be

A VERY rebelious pop (this should the deamon horde attain a seemingly instant victory)

They have a extra resorce blood/souls wicth they attain throw battle and not taxes and goes down every turn but increases by 1 for every kill and units will start to die if you don't have anoth blood / souls to support them (cultist don't need souls but they are a bit expensive and if you disband the number units don't go the population of the city they increase how much souls/blood you have)

they should come to a disavantage when fighting monks (unless they unit they monks are fighting are cultist)

please listen to the advise
keep up the good work ~:thumb: :rtwyes:

[DragoonXXIV]

I think the rebellious pop isn't too hard, if you have a massive culture penalty and also having the units cause unrest like barbarians in non-barbarian cities. However once the city eventually becomes demon, it will be docile like the rest which sounds 'bout right. However this will also mean that demons will be a tough nut to convert back.

[Abokasee]

ok take out the rebelious population but look at the other two ideas (number 2 and 3) what you make of those??

[shifty157]

Abokasee:
Hoggy already made a wraith unit.


When Demons conquer a city their only choices should be exterminate or enslave. If humans conquer a demon city their only choice should be extermination. This will lead to a difficulty in expansion because suddenly you cant produce elite units on the front lines and you cant retrain the elite units you already have but the other faction can. This will cause large tactical problems as you progress further into enemy territory because powerful units will be worn down and cant be replaced and supply lines will become long and cumbersome.

It would also be perfect if all the buildings in the captured town must be destroyed as well or at least become unusable. This of course will also only happen in human vs demon and not human vs human.

Demons should also be able to recruit human mercenaries as normal. There are always evil men in the world.

[Abokasee]

So What About The Idea Of "souls" (number 2)

[DragoonXXIV]

Shifty, the problem with your idea is first of all i think all three options available are hard-coded, secondly that would only be a problem for humans, even so if the high level buildings are there you can still train/re-train high level units. Remember exterminate only removes 3/4 of the pop., not all of it. However i' not sure but i think it might be possible to have it so human buildings can only train human troops, and demon buildings can only train demon troops. However don't quote me on this.

[shifty157]

Right. Sorry about the confusion but i meant to put the part about buildings being unusable at the top. Thats why elite units wouldnt be able to be retrained or built (not because of low population).

Also i think that perhaps one or two of the elite and mroe specialized units from each faction should only be able to be built in the home provinces.

[JimBob]

Maybe have a building that the demons need for all units (hellish portal, soul thingy, come on people you're creative) and one for humans (monestary, shrine, you get the idea). Give them long buildtimes to represent either the 'blighting' or 'un-blighting' of the city. Just an idea

[shifty157]

Maybe have a building that the demons need for all units (hellish portal, soul thingy, come on people you're creative) and one for humans (monestary, shrine, you get the idea). Give them long buildtimes to represent either the 'blighting' or 'un-blighting' of the city. Just an idea


Although that helps speed up late game expansion (as opposed to rebuilding the entire military tech tree) it would severely stunt early game expansion. Having to wait three to four turns to use (and then improve) each new province you capture can seriously delay your ealry game expansion. Although this could be avoided by including this base building in the neighboring rebel provinces from the start. Yes i think if you did that youd get the best of both worlds. Although i think there should still be a larger setback for late game expansion. Perhaps you must a build a "greater hell portal" (demons) in addition to the "hell portal" to get access to the more advanced units.

Again if a city is taken by either side then these base buildings will be destroyed automatically

On a side note the rebel provinces surrounding the demon homeprovinces should be rebel demons.

[DragoonXXIV]

The real problem with this is R:TW's abstraction of unit construction. I love R:TW and think it's a great game but it is no where close to realistic in terms of strategic decisions (the tactical aspect is closer to realistic but still has a lot of abstraction). Using the R:TW engine i'm pretty sure that the idea of 'blightening' or 'un-blightening' provinces is impossible.

EDIT: What i'm trying to say, is that if you make a mod of a game you have to keep yourself confined within the logical and computational abstractions and limitations imposed in the game. I.E. You can't convert the Dawn of War into Warcraft 3 or even R:TW into M:TW.

[shifty157]

I think there should a page with all of the screenshots on it so that people can see everything that youve all done so far. I know i would really like that and i think most everyone else would too. If you dont have the time then drop me a pm with the urls to the screenshots and ill make the thread. Ill even throw in some unit descriptions and speculation and anything else youd want me to.

[hoggy]

I like this idea Shifty but I'm not sure about making another screenshot thread. Perhaps we could make it part of the army list thread with cropped screengrabs of individual units next to their description? bit of a big job though there are over 65 units done so far with another 30 or so to go.

[shifty157]

I have an old angelfire account i could use . . .

Do you still have the screenshots of your older units?

[HunkinElvis]

I just had an interesting idea hoggy. Have the 'peasant' unit for each faction take 0 turns to build. That way you can train as many peasants as you want in just 1 turn. This would make for interesting tacticle desicion. Whats more people might actually consider training them. Just for the simple fact that you could essentially mobilize the entire population of a city in 1 turn...
But remember that the enemy would do the same, making it a large peasant versus peasant war.

[HunkinElvis]

https://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y232/eesang2002/TW/fortress2.jpg

https://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y232/eesang2002/TW/silla_recreation2.jpg

https://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y232/eesang2002/TW/temple2.jpg

https://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y232/eesang2002/TW/grotto2.jpg

https://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y232/eesang2002/TW/baekche2.jpg

https://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y232/eesang2002/TW/chosun_palace2.jpg

https://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y232/eesang2002/TW/throne2.jpg

[HunkinElvis]

https://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y232/eesang2002/TW/4cent_army2.jpg

https://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y232/eesang2002/TW/parade2.jpg

https://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y232/eesang2002/TW/weapons.jpg

http://hall.ksf.or.kr/presenter/choimuseon/swf/choimuseon_26.jpg

[HunkinElvis]

The exorcist could raise your army's morale against demons.

https://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y232/eesang2002/TW/exorcist2.jpg

[hoggy]

GiantMonkeyman posted this, hope you don't mind I've moved it to the General thread. I'm trying to keep this forum reasonably trim so it's easy for everyone to find stuff.:

will there be any region specific units? for example in r:tw there was spartan hoplites and now RTR is doing a whole zone of recruitment thing

i was thinking maybe a similar thing could be done in blue lotus for example monks can only build there best units on 'monk' island and on the mainland they make levies? or something like that
also the japanese could make ninja only in their specified areas making it a good way to cut back on ninja but still allow them
and another: all factions can only build their major units in their original provnces this will make the factions even more unique and stop fast spreading like in r:tw where i just took all of greece in 10 years (as brutii (this made me look for a new mod in the first place :bow: ))
what do u think?

GMM'
-
The idea sounds good will have to do some testing once we've got it up and running. - hoggy

[hoggy]

KingClas wrote this:

Hi
I wonder if there is any fations which still need to have units thought upp and/or if mercanaries are decided. I can join the team and come upp with ideas of units. Also i can ofcorce do the same with buildings. I can however do no editing.

/Clas

Hi King Clas, We're pretty much ok for factions, unit types etc. (Check out the Army List thread) but many thanks for the offer.

note: I'm going to move this thread to 'General' if you don't mind just to keep things tidy.

[Bar Kochba]

when will this mod be finished

[hoggy]

runes wrote:

curious: is it possible to make a unit (consantly) carry the plague. I've tried a few times in vanilla to use some form of biological warfare, taking spies/diplomats from infected cities and send them into enemy cities. Mostly just for kicks, but i wonder of it's at all possible to have a permanently plague-bearing unit?

(Or, alternately, how about a permanantly plague-bearing city, that just churns out infected units)



- possibly. we could give it a go. Not sure how it would work gameplay wise though if the demon armies were constantly plagued.
ps. I've moved this to the General thread for general questions, cheers - hoggy

[shifty157]

just a thought for later on.

turn the zombie troops into zone of recruitment troops recruitable only in territories of their culture. for example the undead samurai and zombie ashigaru would be recruitable only in japanese territories. then also make zombie troops to be recruitable in the territories of other factions. (chinese- zombie bamboo spearmen/undead heavey spearmen; indian- zombie peasants/undead golden swordsmen; etc.)

granted itd take more work but i think itd add more flavor to the mod.

[GiantMonkeyMan]

it is easy to do area specific recruitment...... i have been doing a whole host of stuff to my carthaginian army to allow them to have different auxillias from different places eg gallic units, iberian units, african units and general auxillias

i have gotten quite good at editing text files now so if you need help??? :bow:

[hoggy]

(moved) Greek Fire wrote :

Recently I read a book (ten thousand miles without a cloud, by sun shuyun) about a Chinese monk called Xuanzang, who in 630 AD who made an epic journey from China to India by skirting round the himalayas and travelling through modern day afghanistan.

He does this to obtain copies of the ancient sutras of the Indians, which he believes will help him to obtain enlightenment.
He has lots of adventures, including bandit attacks, his followers being wiped out by an avalanche while crossing the tien shan, and one desert king being so impressed with his wisdom he tries to force Xuanzang to marry his beautiful daughter.

I have no idea why this hasn't been made into a Hollywood movie, especially with so much interest in the east at the moment.

Heres the historical story of his adventures:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xuanzang

But the Chinese also made a famous legend about his quest. In this version, Xuanzang is called to India by the Bodhisattva Guan Yin to obtain sutras not available in China. He is accompanied on this quest by The Monkey King Sun Wukong, the pig-monster Zhu Wuneng (豬悟能), and the half water demon Sha Wujing (沙悟淨) - all of whom have agreed to help him along the way as an atonement for past sins. His horse that Xuanzang rides is itself a dragon prince.

Here's the story of the legend.

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclo...ney-to-the-West

I dunno, I'm sure the mod team already know about all this stuff, but apart from the jaw-dropping screenshots thread, this board seems a little quiet, so I thought I'd beef it up with a bit of Chinese history/mythology

[HunkinElvis]

There is a picture of Sun Wukong here: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?p=811503#post811503

[hoggy]

there used to be a tv series that ran here in England with was dubbed from japanese (i believe) all about the monkey king, Pigsy and Sandy . Fantastic stuff. Although I think they called the monk Tripitaka?
here's a link to one site:
http://www.monkeyheaven.com/

[Androo]

Just some thoughts concerning the nature of the demon faction I will toss into the mix- probably of no use (clearly the mod team know what they are doin') but can't do any harm, right?
My impressions of Asian mythology and religions are that there is much less of an emphasis on, perhaps even no concept of, pure Good and Evil as opposed to the monotheistic West and Middle East. Perhaps more similar to Greek mythology... So gods, demi-gods, demons, humans and animals, with no one group or individual having a monopoly on good or evil. Rather all of them are in state of flux, partaking of those qualities in greater or lesser degrees from day to day. So demons might be bad, nasty, mischievous, cruel, anti-human, but probably not Eeeeville (crash of thunder). And the Demon Realm would not equal Hell. From a practical, mod standpoint that could be very good: it would seem perfectly logical to me if the demon faction allied itself with a human faction against another human faction. Whereas I believe the METW mod team might be having trouble with Good factions allying themselves with Evil factions in the SP campaign, etc., certainly in the Beta anyway, which still rocks. For all the above reasons I am really looking forward to playing the demon faction (man, I'm looking forward to this mod!)...
I'm also really looking forward to a specific custom battle: "Noooo, all the Ashigaru whom I heartlessly sent to their deaths in STW have come back to have their revenge!" ~:eek:

[hoggy]

That ties in closely with the way we see the demon faction in BL. The demons themselves are not naturally evil or good. They have been summoned and ensnared for 'evil' purposes by stronger demons. A lot of the demon types; kappa, rokurokubi etc are more mischievious than evil and would certainly never combine to fight in unit strength without being controlled. Certain units like the dragons are controlled totally under binding. As it is, the demons can ally with whoever they like and demon units are available as mercenaries in certain areas to all factions. It is up to the player to choose their side as in RTW but the demon army is the biggest and most aggressive threat on the map.

[Captain-Tiguris]

1.) Who are the team and what do they do?


I like the idea of the deamons being neutral. If it were me, I would of made them either come to take back 'their' world which they lost in a great war some years ago or they were tricked by some force and were turned against every one.





I love this mod, I just wished I had some skills to help but I am useless as I work but as a conceptual designer (eg, discuss looks of units and try to get them to look their absolute best).

[Androo]

Wow, hoggy, that all sounds great to me! The incongruousness of more solitary creatures like kappa banding together into cohesive units hadn't even occurred to me: the concept of them being summoned and controlled by more powerful demons, with their own agendas, is perfect. Regional demons also being available for summoning / hire by human factions will also be very cool. Perhaps kappa can be paid with cucumber!~;) I believe that is how cucumber sushi (kappa maki) got its name, cucumber traditionally being left as an offering on the edge of marshes or wherever it is that kappa hang out, to mollify them! I don't generally like to play the strongest faction, but for Blue Lotus I will definitely make an exception for the first campaign at least.

[Kageka]

I am sitting and listening to Huun Hur Tu (mongolian (mostly tuvan) folk/traditional music) and came to wonder about the progress of the music and sounds to this mod. Any music done? If so, could you (Big John?) please give us a little teaser clip to listen to. Link it to this forum. Would be really nice. :bow:

[Gubook Janggoon]

Ah music.

This is the only clip of Korean music that I can find so far.

http://www.geomungo.com/kor/main/media/chulgang.wma

The individual is playing a Geomungo, an instrument said to have been invented in Goguryeo. It's a type of zither.

[Gubook Janggoon]

I found a great site for Korean music, but there is some modern music mixed in there.

http://203.252.231.26/

Anything under these titles should be more traditional.

Our Favorite Music Series
Seoul Saeul Kayagum Trio
Sinawi Music of Korea - Farmer's Jazz
Hwang, UiJong
JongNongAkHoe
Arirang - the Song of Thounsand Years

[HunkinElvis]

Here are some early Chosun era warriors. I found them at http://cafe.daum.net/shogun.

https://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b217/eesang2006/TW/mace.jpg
mace

https://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b217/eesang2006/TW/shield.jpg https://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b217/eesang2006/TW/shield2.jpg

https://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b217/eesang2006/TW/naginata.jpg https://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b217/eesang2006/TW/naginata2.jpg

https://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b217/eesang2006/TW/spear.jpg https://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b217/eesang2006/TW/spear2.jpg

https://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b217/eesang2006/TW/archer.jpg https://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b217/eesang2006/TW/archer2.jpg

https://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b217/eesang2006/TW/cavalry.jpg https://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b217/eesang2006/TW/cavalry2.jpg

[Gubook Janggoon]

Wow...nice pictures..

I'm not familiar with that kind of armour style though.

What era is it from?

I want to guess Goryeo..but I'm not sure at all.

[Rudolph of Puttland]

What you could do to make this mod exciting is to make a more story oriented campaign. Like;
In the beginning all of the human factions live in peace with each other, but are attacked by demons(a lesser demon faction) all the time.The monks have warned all of the factions that a great treath has arisen, a far worse demon faction, but the monks have given all the factions different messages to make them turn on each other, because the truth is that the monks control the demons and want to rule the orient themselves. for example, the chinese are told to get the head of the indian kalif and the japanese emperor. By doing this the chinese will be ignored by the demons(not really).
The goal of the monks is to get the demons to conquer three shrines which will realive the gods.

I know its not a original plot, but you get my point. To make a more story driven campaign. I don`t know if this is possible at all, and it is surely damn hard to make it work good, but it would be cool.
Maybe you can do it when BI comes, you know, making different victory conditions.You also have to have events, such as marius reform.

Of course you have to have an original total war campaign included.

Creative and original mod by the way, looking forward to playing it.

[shifty157]

Whats the latest on other areas of the mod besides the units? Im assuming Blindfaithnogod and Sykotykrampage are still making progress?

[blindfaithnogod]

well i've been busy implamenting all the great stuff hoggy is making. i've been a little busy with real life lately as well. sykotyk has been working on the 2d art for most of the buildings. he has just gone on vacation. so you may not hear from him for almost a month.

[de norf]

Hey guys. I just registered here solely because of this mod, so keep up the good work.

Anyway, I was wondering how agents will be implemented. Will the Demon faction have access to diplomats? IMO diplomacy should be completely unavailable to them. The whole idea of signing a peace agreement or bribing a horde of evil hellspawn just seems weird to me. Oh and sorry if this has already been discussed elsewhere.

BTW If I would love to see this mod succeed and if I could help in anyway, I will. I havent got any modding experience but I could write faction/unit/building descriptions, etc.

Thanks
de norf

[SomeNick]

Hi Hoggy,
Just wondering are you the tutor instructing on model animation at the TMWA? The site for helping people learn how to mod, thats linked with TWC I think. Just joined yesterday :) learning how to script.

If so could I join your class and which programs would I need?

Sorry if this has already been mentioned but the threads are very big at this site :O

Anyway, excellent work, Blue Lotus looks a treat.

Thanks for your time :)

[hoggy]

no, sorry, not sure where you heard that. I'm sure whoever is will know what they're doing though, it's an excellent project.

[GiantMonkeyMan]

hoggy will you be implementing an AOR type system in blue lotus or will you keep it simple? if you are i could help....

[AlokaParyetra]

quick question,

what is the victory condition going to be in Blue Lotus? in vanilla, it was 50 provinces + rome. is BL going to be like capture the monk island + certain # of provinces? or is it total domination of asia or something...?

[Ashton]

Another quick question,

I read once, I beleieve in the men and monsters forum, about units being able to fortify their allies towns and villages will this be available in BL?

I only wonder as i felt it might help stem, the atack of the demon hordes.

[Shaka_Khan]

Here is a website that show videos of a Korean cavalry:


Various Cavalry Movements (http://www.chunghondang.com/eques_mar.htm)
Demonstrations (http://www.chunghondang.com/eques_mar_1.htm)

http://www.chunghondang.com/images/gisaani.gif http://www.chunghondang.com/images/e-mar_1.jpg http://www.chunghondang.com/images/e-mar_2.jpg http://www.chunghondang.com/images/e-mar_5.jpg http://www.chunghondang.com/images/e-mar_4.jpg http://www.chunghondang.com/images/e-mar_3.jpg

[Avicenna]

Sun Wukong would be a great idea.. except with his personality he would probably attack anyone he wanted to (unless the Buddha, or in this game the monks, forbid him to by reducing the size of the ring on his head). This would be quite problematic.. and add the fact that his stick, which can be made as large as he wants, would be impossible for the R:TW engine and it would simply demoralize and rout the enemy in one swift shot.

[Martimus]

I was wondering about the the faction leader, and family members. How will these be implemented, will you create unique characters ? or traits ?

[hopeless]

:eeeek: Hi, this is my first post but I have been following this mod for a while.:hide:
I remember reading somewhere (forgot where) about the agents you are using in this mod. :embarassed:
I like the ninga and the chinese diplomat, but the spie doesn't have character.:idea2:
I mean that of the three main cultures, you have only two of them represented in the agents: :inquisitive:
the ninga (japanese) and the diplomat (chinese).:book:
I believe that the spie should be a kitsune (japanese fox demon) so that the demons have a representative.~;)
I believe that they would be the perfect choice because traditionally they are not evil (just mischievous) and were known to be quite mercinary in their dealings.~:cool:
I know this might be too late for any change, but I just had to say it.:shame:
:stupido: Anyways,:sweatdrop:
:eyebrows: all praises the god of Rome Modding,:jumping:
:bow: Hoggy :2thumbsup:


:listen: How watch the dancing elephants.....:juggle2:

:elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant:

:creep: Aren't they pretty?:helloo:

[hopeless]

:oops: I forgot to mention the kitsune's transformation ablities (they can make them selves look like anything as well as other objects) and their trickster nature.:dizzy2:

:laugh4: Again watch the pink elephants dance.:weirdthread:


:elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant:


:dancing: Yea, thats the stuff.:shrug:

[Asean]

What do you guys think of the idea of adding another faction? I'm thinking maybe you can create a Demon/Human hybrid civilization in the Southeast Asia regions to replace the vast emptiness there~D .... Here are some ideas for possible units:

https://img433.imageshack.us/img433/6792/goldenwinmmod7dn.jpg
https://img311.imageshack.us/img311/6158/dehu9gj.jpg
https://img158.imageshack.us/img158/8135/img2327pj.jpg
https://img158.imageshack.us/img158/1852/dehu10kr.jpg
https://img158.imageshack.us/img158/8818/dehu26zw.jpg
https://img158.imageshack.us/img158/1910/painting23co.jpg
https://img439.imageshack.us/img439/7505/painting14no.jpg
https://img158.imageshack.us/img158/1610/dehu53zg.jpg
https://img158.imageshack.us/img158/488/dehu61xj.jpg
https://img158.imageshack.us/img158/4668/dehu71ft.jpg
https://img433.imageshack.us/img433/6908/chams4lt.jpg

[Asean]

Some more Possible Units and models of Archers amd warriors:

[hoggy]

Really nice reference material Asean. At the moment we've got enough on getting the existing factions working but that faction looks promising for a possible future expension.

[Asean]

Cool.... yeah I'll prefer if the team concentrate on the existing factions instead of trying to add another faction and pushing back the release. But when you decide to create a southeast asian faction as an expansion, I'll try to help provide some info..~:cool:

[MAt]

What do you guys think of the idea of adding another faction? I'm thinking maybe you can create a Demon/Human hybrid civilization in the Southeast Asia regions to replace the vast emptiness there~D .... Here are some ideas for possible units:



I think that sounds like a really good idea, for a possible SEA faction... specially putting the demons in there as well - cos as Im sure you know theres a widely accepted culture of capturing and 'converting' demons to protect religious sights in this part of the world.

But if your gonna create a 'hybrid' civilization I also reckon since the Khmers were pretty much out of the picture at the time most of the other factions were at their height it would probably be better to go with just a Siamese/Burmese style army, since they were the main contenders in late medieval SEA... plus from the little I know about the Khmer army it wasn't too hot...

Oh well, I guess we're a long way from ever seeing anything like it in Blue Lotus... fair enough, but it would be cool.

[Asean]

I thought Blue Lotus was a "fantasy" mod with no timeframe. ~:confused:

[Asean]

Southeast Asia City gates (possible designs):

The one on the left is more of a medieval late 16th-17th century Thai gate. The one on the right is an older 11th century Khmer city gate.

https://img139.imageshack.us/img139/5965/citygate2ku.jpghttps://img71.imageshack.us/img71/7061/10484fv.jpg

[MAt]

I thought Blue Lotus was a "fantasy" mod with no timeframe. ~:confused:

lol
ok fine, tbh maybe Khmers would be better stylistically in terms of building design and stuff, but their army wasnt particularly well equipped or very good.... I was just thinking in terms of unit variety etc later medieval would provide more inspiration.

[Asean]

but their army wasnt particularly well equipped or very good.... I was just thinking in terms of unit variety etc later medieval would provide more inspiration.

You're basing this off of what? Please explain how Siamese/Burmese military are more "stylish", superior or better equipped then the Khmers? War elephants, archers, cavalry, spearmen were generic units in Southeast Asia.

[MAt]

You're basing this off of what? Please explain how Siamese/Burmese military are more "stylish", superior or better equipped then the Khmers? War elephants, archers, cavalry, spearmen were generic units in Southeast Asia.

Ok, Im not claiming to have a broad knowledge of the subject, but as far as I was aware, it was generally accepted that subjugated Thai princes were able to not only drive off their Khmer overlords but sack Angkor and seriously finish off the Khmers as a significant military and political power in the region. Even at the height of their power, Chinese ambassadors commented on the Khmers' poorly equipped and poorly diciplined troops, often wearing little armour and more like a militia than an army.

By the time we get to the Ayuthaya period in Siam, the Siamese are by far the wealthiest power in the region, and weapon and armour technology gained significant advances with Chinese and Arabian influences. However the Burmese campaigns against the Siamese showed that the Burmese were by far the most effective fighting force in the region - although they could not withstand the Siamese resistance, even after Ayuthaya was burnt to the ground and all central government was effectively wiped out, the Siamese were able to rally and push the Burmese out.

The fact is, as far as the historical records I know of show, the Khmers downfall was their poor military and inability to ensure that Thai rebellions were dealt with effectively. By the time we get to 15th/16th/17th centuries, arms and armour had moved on considerably and your looking at much better equipped and trained militaries in SE Asia. The number of troops begins to vary a bit more and I think its fair to say there were more than just war elephants, archers, cavalry and spearmen.

I dunno... like I say I only have a very basic knowledge of South East Asian militaries - but war museums Ive visited in Bangkok alone would suggest a much broader array of troops - as well as various countries having differently equipped armies. If you're sure that armies in the region did vary much less than I seem to have figured then I'd be genuinely interested in being corrected.

EDIT: I just found this which might be of interest - it does indicate the level of equipment of Khmer armies at any rate...

http://fanaticus.org/dba/armies/dba110.html

And while this doesnt go into a great amount of detail about specific make up of armies, it gives a good account of what warfare in medieval SE Asia was like... I dunno... its an interesting read anyway.

http://instruct1.cit.cornell.edu/courses/hist190/Wales%20ch7DW.html

Ok this one is a pretty good one for looking at Siamese weaponry

http://www.chiangmai-chiangrai.com/to_arms_1.html

[alahir]

i swear this was a fantasy mod

i dosnt have to be all historcaly correct if its fantasy

it is fantasy there are demons

[Asean]

You may be right about the Khmers not having much armor, especially the lowest order of the Khmer army, who wore nothing but loin cloths and went into battle having only a shield and sword/spear. But then again, the same can be said about most Southeast Asian armies back then. You have to remember, this is in Southeast Asia, it gets really hot and the environment is totally different, and thus armor wasn’t used much. It's about mobility and fast movement in thick jungle terrain. However, some armor were used such as armor made of cane, leather and some metal. The Khmer, for example, certainly weren’t a rag-tag poorly put together army as you seem to be suggesting. There were some interesting units and weapons used, such as chariots, war elephants, cavalry, arhcers and infantry with different types of weapons and shields such as spears, swords etc. For example, here are some of their units and weapons depicted:

Spearmen:
https://img282.imageshack.us/img282/1234/khmer1a5rk.jpg

Elephant Archer:
https://img282.imageshack.us/img282/1036/khmer28yl.jpg

Archer:
https://img396.imageshack.us/img396/6395/soldierofangkor7qa.jpg

Interesting Weapon:
https://img282.imageshack.us/img282/8424/khmer38tm.jpg

Cavalry:
https://img282.imageshack.us/img282/160/khmer48sk.jpg

LongShields:
https://img155.imageshack.us/img155/1348/mjk0905sv.jpg

Chariots:
https://img420.imageshack.us/img420/5073/angkor20bas20relief91js.jpg
Site with some Khmer weapons:
http://www.fareastasianart.com/directory/Southeast_Asian:Edged_Weapons.html

12th-13th century Khmer cuirasses:
https://img388.imageshack.us/img388/5513/khmercuirass5cw.th.jpg (https://img388.imageshack.us/my.php?image=khmercuirass5cw.jpg)


Ok this one is a pretty good one for looking at Siamese weaponry

http://www.chiangmai-chiangrai.com/to_arms_1.html

That certainly is nice weaponry. But do you have any information on the Siamese/Burmese superior Armor? Many of those weapons were used by most armies in Southeast asia. The cannons and such came into use around the 16th-17th century, and were from the British. I do like the Siamese/Burmese army. There were some interesting units from there. If you prefer the Thai/Burmese army, you'll have to model the units from modern interpretation of what they were like, since there aren't many, if any, pictures of their units from this time period. It's easier to just go with the Khmer, since they had a huge influence in the region, had a huge empire, equally interesting units, unique architecture and such. But since they lack armor, you can always give them less defense attributes.


The fact is, as far as the historical records I know of show, the Khmers downfall was their poor military and inability to ensure that Thai rebellions were dealt with effectively.

What led to the downfall of the Khmers is still controversial. Military may or may not be one aspect, but leadership, stability of the economy and empire, religion, etc. also plays a role. But that's another topic I won't get into.

[MAt]

Thats some interesting stuff there. I'd agree with you about the general lack of armour in most armies of the region for most of history. And you're right there's not much information to go on for later armies, a lot of medieval Siamese art generally depicts soldiers as unarmoured, carrying a darb (sword) and a tow (small shield) accompanied by generals mounted on elephants. Id imagine the darb/tow combination must have been fairly generic in reality too, since it is still the symbol of the Thai police today. There were some heavier armoured troops as well, the picture of the armour on that website doesnt really do it justice - Im not sure who would have worn armour like that, I cant imagine there would be too many of people wearing it though.

A lot of the later technology in the region was a blend of technology that they imported from China, India and Arabia as well as Europe, I think there's definately scope to come up with a really interesting faction based on SEA.... but I still think with a unit roster you could include troops from across the region as well as the Khmer.

That said, what demons do think should be incorporated into the army?

[Asean]

That said, what demons do think should be incorporated into the army?

Some fairly common ones should be Hanuman (Half Monkey Half Man), Demon/Giant from Ramakien mythology etc. I don't know much about southeast asian mythology, I'll have to do more research.

[ramareddy]

Actually, Hanuman is the name of a specific character in the Ramayana, where as his people (half-man, half-monkey) were called "Vanara".

[Helm Hammerhand]

Well, I played the Zensen for a while and I got some problems with the pirates:
The fleets of them are nearly unbeatable and its not possible to afford 2 drilled fieldarmies when all harbours in the "Japanese Sea" are blocked.

I guess its about how to reach the monks island (which makes sense to me) but fighting the demon hordes and the chonson without money is really though.

Isn't there a possibility to reconfigurate the pirate fleets with less harder men (like 200 and not 600) so that they are beatable with a respectable fleet?

It really dropped the gaming factor, towns are revolting (damaged temples can't be repaired) and the demons making party in the realm.

By the way, I think the engine for auto-resolve against demons is a little bit "weird". Fighting them manually causes "heroic victory" (because they panicked very easily after attacking with Kamikaze), but auto_resolve with a 7-star commander causes a draw or only minor victory with heavy own casualities.
Why this? To enforce manual playing? :inquisitive:

[Moros]

The autoresloving is something we haven't change, it still the same as in vanilla.
I'll have a look if the pirates are so overpowered cause I never had porblems with them before (I played a verry long time with the indians with who I even conquered the monk Island, tough that was a previous version. As conquering the monks is nearly impssible now. I think I will nerf them a bit.) Anyway I'll have a look at thos pirate fleets and see if they need to be nerfed too.

[Helm Hammerhand]

Well, it seems that the problem is not the strenght itself, it is the combination of a few pirate fleet in the eastern seas. For instance, if I attacked a pirate fleet with 200 vs 200, the chances are good to win the fight. But after ending the round, all pirates fleet around come to mess me up... - so 3 or 4 fleet with 300 to 600 men wrecking my fleet at once... :furious3:

[Moros]

So the problem is the amount of fleets? Hmmm I'll see if I can make a better compromise.

[Helm Hammerhand]

Yeah indeed it is. Historically you're right about the facts of piracy (if we can use historical facts for that issue) - but I don't think that it is realistic that rebels can afford a 4 times bigger fleet... - and because the AI seems not to build fleets, well it is all about the playa...

I don't know how the rebel AI is working (like refreshing the fleet...) but my idea was, to decrease the fleet in max manpower and increase the whole amount of rebel fleet. This would guarantee the same playground with fair chances to beat the pirate fleets.
By the way: what is the boni of the monks temple (the one on the island)? :juggle2:

[Moros]

Kay I'll see what to do with the pirate fleets.

Hmm...Forgot that. I'll look it up.

[Jakku]

Hey! I'd just like to say that this Blue Lotus mod is simply the best mod ever made for RTW!!!!!!! I waited for ages for a mod to come out with the japanese faction/factions! Even then i was expecting them to be a load of bull:furious3: !!!!!!!!!!!! But then i found this on the front of PC GAMER and i was like wow!!!!! After not playing rome in ages i went and re-installed it just for this mod!!!!!!! I thank all the blue lotus team for making this fantastic mod! Just one thing though...
I think it would be good if you could bring back the battlefield ninja from Shogun back into this mod! I used to love seeing the ninja run across the field! Sorry if they are in it and i just can't find them! Would be cool though!
Thanks!
Jack/Jakku
:2thumbsup:

[Moros]

Hey! I'd just like to say that this Blue Lotus mod is simply the best mod ever made for RTW!!!!!!! I waited for ages for a mod to come out with the japanese faction/factions! Even then i was expecting them to be a load of bull:furious3: !!!!!!!!!!!! But then i found this on the front of PC GAMER and i was like wow!!!!! After not playing rome in ages i went and re-installed it just for this mod!!!!!!! I thank all the blue lotus team for making this fantastic mod! Just one thing though...
I think it would be good if you could bring back the battlefield ninja from Shogun back into this mod! I used to love seeing the ninja run across the field! Sorry if they are in it and i just can't find them! Would be cool though!
Thanks!
Jack/Jakku
:2thumbsup:
Ninja's are mercenaries. You can recruit them in (let me check...)
the provinces:
Ouyama_Provence Yuusen_Provence Hokyo_Provence Kiso_Provence Akagi_Provence Akitsuki_Provence Epirus
Or Japan in other words.

Just a question but what did they say about the mod in PC gamer?

[Jakku]

Just a question but what did they say about the mod in PC gamer?[/QUOTE]



In PC Gamer they said exactly this:
'Blue Lotus
Where God is on nobody's side'
The citizens of Blue Lotus must find it very hard to get competitive insurance rates. Not only is there seemingly always a war on, with demons and zombies fighting bitterly for supremacy of the three-continent world, but every major disaster is an act of God. There's no way Allied War-Elephant Insurance Ltd Is going to pay out these circumstances. And the premiums must be dreadful.
Blue Lotus is a Rome: Total War mod that pays homeage to ancient Japanese, Chinese and Indian mythology, but isn't in any way beholden to it. In the middle of these races sit the gods - drunken, bitter and divisive - raining catastrophe, misery and misfortune on the weary humans below. So far, so realistic. However, the modder cities ''cinema,fiction and random imagination'' as equally important sources when it comes to units and armies, and subsequently there's ''no real constraint'' on what can be included. The result is an impressive mod featuring fishmen, monkeys, Onimusha- style zombies and giant demonswith enormous spiky things they'd like to show you close-up.
There are other factions beyond Eastern mainstays, though they're not yet as developed as the original three. The Demons are playable but don't present too much of a challenge while the Mongol and Korean factions are fairly thin at the moment; ultimately they'll get the extra units they need. But then, this doesn't claim to be a totally comprehensive conversion - much of the artwork is little more 'placeholder' in reality, for instance - but the creators wisely take the point of view that it's best to get a working version out there (currently beta v1.0, though there's a small patch) than spend forever in development hell.

:laugh4:

Jakku

[Moros]

Lol funny description tough I don't know who'll make the Korean and Mongol units they are talking about!

[Jakku]

Hehe i personally don't like the mongol faction! But if you could finish the koreans it would be good! Is it just me or does everyone get a CTD when playing as the Zensen clan when the Koreans attack one of your cities and then you click play battle and it all messes up?!?!???????:help: plz!!
thanx
jakku

[Moros]

Hmmm... We'll have a look.

[ikon]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/8b/Chihiro_and_No_Face.jpg/300px-Chihiro_and_No_Face.jpg (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1189388&postcount=24)

I originally posted this at TWC, following Hoggy interview
( http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1189388&postcount=24 )

Take a look ~:)

Ikon

[Dermeister]

Just wondering,is it posible for me to liek edit somthing somewere so that 1 of my general is immortal? as in not immortal on the battle field,no no just as in lives for ever not deing froem old age but can be assasinated or die in a battle..does anny 1 know?

[Shaka_Khan]

What do you guys think of the idea of adding another faction? I'm thinking maybe you can create a Demon/Human hybrid civilization in the Southeast Asia regions to replace the vast emptiness there~D ....
I agree. I watched a rerun of a documentary on Angkor Wat. The Khmers had international trade with neighboring states. The city of Angkor was wealthy and was nearly the size of Los Angeles. Trade with the Khmers would be a good way to increase income. Plus, Southeast Asian states used a lot of elephants for warfare.

[Moros]

Adding a faction, perhaps one day.

[Apostle Zodd]

Hello

i am new to Modding and is trying to put together a mod based on legend of the five rings and was refurred at twc center to your mod to ask permission to make a minimod if i may?

http://s15.invisionfree.com/L5R__TW/

these are my current forums.