View Full Version : Campaign Map Development
Here is a rough idea of the latest campaign map. It looks like the majority want to go with this map and I think it suits the game better than the original. It obviously needs work as this is just a rough layout (it'll be more fantastical etc) It's based on our world map but is a variant distorted by chinese whispers ~:)
http://www.awrate.com/chrishogg/images/BLmap2.jpg
Silver Rusher
01-08-2005, 20:42
Wow, you've got a new forum now eh?
Big_John
01-09-2005, 02:54
hoggy has.. 'means' of persuasion.. and compromising photos..
hoggy, is anyone helping you with this mod or are you going solo?
At the moment just me but expanding very soon. The one thread was just getting a bit too unmanagable, hopefully this'll make things easier to find.
edit - 1st post updated
and here is a more developed version:
http://www.awrate.com/chrishogg/images/BLmap3.jpg
Alexander the Pretty Good
01-11-2005, 02:03
hoggy, I urge you not to get too realistic with the map. There are other mods for that...
I would be happy with that last map, though.
A pint for my favorite unit-maker - and many more beautiful units and screenshots.
~:cheers:
DragoonXXIV
01-11-2005, 03:58
Looks pretty good, but isn't China 2 a bit small and cramped? I guess they could expand by sea but that's really risky and they have nothing nearby to expand to.
kendonosensei
01-11-2005, 20:05
As I mentioned in the main thread, can't you make the sea a little more important? Why not have a hybrid of the new and old maps. Have land connections between the factions, but seas large enough to make having a navy worthwhile.
If you crack some of those rivers open, you could have a sea in the central area, just south of "Mongolia" that could flow into the ocean by "Korea". I think its important not to make the map too open to land attacks, else the mod'll lose some of its strategic qualities. I don't think factions should have such a large border area.
There's no reason why it has to be one huge, homogenous land mass. Have some fairly small seas between factions, like the Adriatic between Dacia and Italy in RTW.
Marshal Murat
01-12-2005, 22:45
I'd say crack open the area between India and the Demons, and place a big water area there, stretching up to the Mongolian lands. The Demon, with the huge armies (assuming) and being in the big mountainous region (I'd say realtivly safe from any inscursions)
shifty157
01-13-2005, 23:11
Hey there hoggy. Ive been following this mod now for a month or two. Amazing stuff. You are incredible. I tip my hat to you.
Now then.
On to the reason i posted. I looked at your proposed campaign map and looked at the various strategies the different countries could use. Here are my startegies for each faction using the map below (reposted for your convenience). Im not suggesting any changes but i think you should probably rethink a few areas of the map.
http://www.awrate.com/chrishogg/images/BLmap3.jpg
Ok. Lets start at the top.
Japan 2
Japan starts with only 2 provinces and not the greatest position. Its squeezed into the northern corner of the map by Japan 1. This however can be quite the good thing as there are only 2 borders to protect. Regardless. Japan 2 only has 1 direction to expand in and thats west along the northern edge of the map. No other way. But as you can see from the rather large size of the first province this will almost certainly put it against Japan 1. Not to mention that apan 2 is in immediate threat from Japan 1 which is twice its size. The only thing Japan 2 can do is expand west and try not provoke Japan 1's wrath until the right moment. It will be a hard beginning scratching out an existence pressed up to the north by a stronger Japan 1 but with good diplomacy it shouldnt be too difficult.
Japan 1
Japan 1 starts out decently powerful with its 4 provinces and startegic placement on a penninsula. This however does not mean its safe. In fact far from it. Japan 1's first move should be to eliminate Japan 2 as quickly as possible while its still small. If Japan 2 is not conqueredit will come back to cause much more trouble later in the game. Eliminating Japan 2 would also put Japan 1 with its back against the edge of the map which is always good. With Japan 2 gone Japan 1 can focus south where it should easily have enough power to overwhelm Korea. An amphibious assault onto the tip of the penninsula and a drive south overland should be more than enough. With Korea gone Japan 1 now owns the bay area which will become a major cash output area once all of those provinces start trading amongst eachother. Japan 1 needs to be careful that it doesnt get into a war with both Japan 2 and Korea. Especially a prolonged war. Japan 1 doesnt have the strength to fight a 2 front war.
Korea
Korea must expand into the 3 provinces directly north of it as quickly as possible. If it can take these 3 provinces with relative ease it should have the strength to take on Japan 1. Again 1 army lands on the tip of the penninsula and moves up while another goes overland down the penninsula. With Japan 1 eliminated Korea's biggest immediate threat is gone and it should be able to sweep through Japan 2 with relative ease. Korea should absolutely ignore China 1 at this point in the game and China 1 will ignore it.
The Northern Region
This region includes Japan 1&2 and Korea as well as the 4 unclaimed provinces on their borders. The way the unclaimed provinces are placed (particularly their size) creates a natural funnel that will direct any efforts to expand outwards by the 3 factions into eachother. War cannot be avoided. Only 2 factions can expand without war leaving 1 faction out. These regions will be highly contested as all 3 of these factions needs them. Japan 2 desperatly needs any provinces it can get a hold of as does Korea. Japan 1 needs only to solidify its starting dominant position and deny the other 2 factions the land they need to survive. The faction that unites this region (at the expense of the other 2 factions) will find itself with an incredibly good board position. The bay area created by the 2 penninsulas allows for incredible amounts of cash later in the game as sea trade is upgraded. Only 1 of these 3 factions can survive the immediate war. After the region is united the hardest fighting is over. The faction should have enough power to capture either the enitre northern portion of the map up to the demon lands including Mongolia or move south into China 1.
China 2
China 2 has the worst starting position on the map (although Mongolia comes very close). It can expand nowhere except into another (stronger) faction. China 2 must choose 1 of 3 courses of action immediatly and commit itself fully or die in the process. Number 1 (and most obvious) it could try to take on China 1. This will be very difficult considering China 1 is twice its size. China 2 must hope that China 1's resources are diverted to another threat leaving it open for easy taking. This option should be taken if it is ignored by CHina 1. Number 2 China 2 can transplant itself entirely into Korea. Kroea will be too busy in its war with Japan 1 leaving itself completly open to an attack from behind. This option should be taken if China 1 immediatly begins to attack it. Option number 3 is a last resort and should be used only if China 1 immidiatly attacks it and Korea is defended too strongly to conquer easily. In this option China 2 must completely transplant itself onto the monk island eliminating the monk faction. This would be very difficult but once completed would give China 2 virtual immunity to attack as well as the ability to attack almost anywhere at any time taking advantage of any opportunity that might show itself. Once China 2 overcomes the immediate threat of complete annihilation the rest of the campaign should be all downhill.
India
India has the best starting position on the map. Not only does it have 5 provinces but it also has no immediate threats. India should have only 1 starting goal and that is to take all of the 6 provinces in the penninsula directly east of it. This will more than double its size and augment its military capability exponentialy. If China 1 tries to take the penninsula for itself (which it should) then India must focus all of its attention and gain the region at all costs. This should be easily done however especially if China 1 is distracted by China 2. The Demon hordes are too far away to pose any immediate threat. Once the penninsula is taken India should then have more than enough power to overtake China 1&2 and claim the entire south for itself.
China 1
China 1 has decent board position but it faces a difficult decision. It must choose between China 2 and the penninsula to its south. It does not have the capability to take both China 2 and India. It only has the resources to defeat 1 while delaying the other. China 2 is not a large threat but if left unchecked it can become a major nuisance later in the game. If China 1 doesnt immediatly move into the penninsula however it gives India a major head start to solidify its own hold on the area. Delaying its attack into the penninsula to finish off China 2 can make taking the penninsula later much more difficult. Ignoring China 2 however can lead to attack by China 2 which would put China 1 in quite a bad position. Once the initial 2 front war is over and China 1 owns the penninsula and China 2 has been eliminated China 1 will have more than enough power to conquer India.
The Southern Region
This region includes China 1&2, India, and the penninsula. The major contested region here is the penninsula. Both China 1 and India should try and take it as quickly as possible. It will give a huge advantage in cash and military capability. Whoever ends up in control of the penninsula will have the ability to conquer all of the southern region. India has the advantage here however because it can focus all of its forces into the penninsula while China 1 needs to split its forces on 2 fronts. India also has 1 more province than China 1 does.
Mongolia
Mongolia has an incredibly bad starting position. If everything does not go perfectly right for Mongolia it will die. Perhaps not immediatly but its demise will be in stone. Mongolia has quite a predicament. It can either expand east south or north. Expanding east will put it into immediate conflict with at least Korea possibly Japan 1 as well. Expanding south does not put it into immediate conflict with any faction and for this reason this is its best option. It must take advantage of India and China 1 being preoccupied by the penninsula to conquer every unclaimed territory. With this done it can then finish off the overextended China 1. At this point it will have the ability to conquer India even if India has taken the entire penninsula. This startegy is Mongolia's best option but it must be played perfectlyotherwise things could go disasterously wrong. Mongolia should not expand north at all. This would put it into immediate conflict with the Demon horde and it doesnt even have near enough power to hold off the horde.
Demon Horde
The Demon Horde must expand and never stop expanding. Period. No diplomacy or anything. Just keep expanding at absolutely every opportunity and crush the other factions while theyre still relatively small. It cannot afford to wait for the campaign to turn into a 3 power world.
Those are the strategies i can find for each faction. The only suggestion i have is to divide some of the provinces into smaller provinces to give factions the option to avoid outright war. Then again maybe you want the game to be much more cutthroat so that any expansion must be at the expense of another faction. Its quite an interesting map.
Good luck dude. I cant wait for this mod.
DragoonXXIV
01-13-2005, 23:51
bloody... pressed the enter button by accident... sorry 'bout that...
(If someone knows how to edit please tell me)
What i was about to say was that although those are the total number of provinces that doesn't mean each province has the same value. Namely 1 good province can easily be the value of 5 or 6 lesser ones, i.e. Rome in R:TW. Also i think your opinion of mongolia is too low, if China 2 strikes hard at china 1 then mongolia can open a second front and rape China 1. Then crush a battered China 2. Also we don't know how large the demon army is, maybe Mongolia can expand to where the Demons don't.
However i do agree with some of your comments, especially about India being in the best position and Japan 2 and especially China 2 being in bad situations. The problems lies in the amount of room to expand, and clearly the biggest is the SE peninsula is not heavily contested. Also we don't know the starting politics of the map, maybe Japan 1 and Japan 2 or China 1 and China 2 are in a Roman alliance (like the Julii, Brutii, and Scipii in R:TW) or at least they favor each other over the other 'barbarians'.
shifty157
01-14-2005, 00:08
I was assuming that each territory was the same. I also assumed that there were no starting alliances and that each faction started with about the same number of armies (and the same quality of armies) and had equally tech advanced towns.
Mongolia is several turns away from reaching China 1 with the ability to fight a war (assuming that it takes time to conquer the province or two directly south which it should). This leaves China 2's ass hanging in the wind for that amount of turns because this war will start first turn. China 2's best chance for a two front war would be with India in the penninsula. If the Mongols came in a later down the line then that would spell the end for China 1. The Mongols however have an immediate threat in the demons which are only 1 province away. It would be very difficult for Mongolia to take on both China 1 (although very weakened) and the full brunt of the demon army. Mongolia is in a very bad position because everyone is expanding into it so that it cant safely expand without declaring war on another faction. Its a tough call for Mongolia. Itll take quite the strategist to pull off a victory in the end.
Diplomacy is paramount in a cutthroat map like this. Any advantage must be used and any opportunity must be taken. The quicker a threat is eliminated the better it will be in the long run. This means backstabbing and ganging up whenever possible for best effect.
Marshal Murat
01-14-2005, 02:08
Good idea shifty.
The pennisula should have a large amount of tradable commodities (southern one). China 1 and India will both leap for the zone.
here is my assesment of player strategies.
Demons
You have two strategies.
However in both maximize your fear factors. Build a large array of forces, and get as many intimidation abilities as possible. You want to minimize casualties, and create fear in the enemy troops.
A, you can build a massive array of forces inside the defense of the mountains, building forts along the passes blocking the enemy advance into your territories, and make at least three levels of forts, and three armies of your best and fastest troops, one for the mountains, the other for the gap, and third for reserve.
Then when you are ready, march over to Mongolia, conquer and then into Japan, and then sweep down with land and amphibious assaults along the way. Elite troops spearhead, and weaker garrison.
B, as shifty said advance. You will easily overwhelm Mongols, if you can insolate the cities, and destroy the nations. Never or rarely engage the armies. The anti Parthian strategy is to always destroy thier bases, and secure yours, making them unable to train, save mercenaries, and then when the money runs out, they will disappear. Then swing your advance to the Northeast. Watch India and China with a few armies and upgrade Mongolia fast to provide a more nearby troop source. Also build a small fleet in the small delta by India. Take the samurai armies first, then Korea. With the bay, build a huge fleet. Go Five Rings style and strike China 2 in the back. Advance into China. After doing so, India and the monks are left. India looks like a Egypt with elites, and now with little or no war, they will build. Quad the attacks. One by the Mountains to the north. Second by the pennisula. Third by the Indian Ocean representation with the China amphibious force. Fourth by the little bay nearby where the ships are, fill them up and launch them at India. Four fronts will destroy them.
Dragoon - I'm going to extend China 2 to the north so it has a border on the rest of the continent
kendonosensei - I'm not too keen to increase the naval aspect of this map, the last map relied too much on it and as many people have pointed out the AI does not handle naval combat/expansion well. There is a whole coast out there though for willing explorers wanting to sail to the far off riches of Krishnapur not to mention the final invasion of the Monk island.
Shifty - top work there. I may use your descriptions as the campaign intros for each faction. I agree with your analysis on the whole.
Some general points
- as mentioned above China 2 will have a new northern border so fighting China 1 isn't essential to start with.
- China 2 and Japan 2 are designed to be the harder level of each faction. ie people wanting a real challenge will choose Japan 2. Likewise the Mongol faction is a very hard faction to play. No factions are allies although china 1 and 2 will have some affinity as will japan 1 and 2.
- I like the idea of the peninsula being a rich resource (India too will also be very rich tempting players south)
Al Khalifah
01-14-2005, 17:40
hoggy, I think it would be more exciting if China 2 were completely surrounded by China 1. China 2 could represent an Imperial faction while China 1 could represent a rebel faction and the two could start with a diplomatic stance of 'at war.' The AI can become very single minded when it goes to war, which would be perfect in representing a Chinese civil war between these factions.
If Imperial China's starting armies are better than Rebel China's and their cities are more developed, then the Imperials have every chance of surving long enough for another threat to emerge to the Rebels.
It makes more sense for China 2 to be more developed anyway since they hold the coastal territories and the original capital of China - take a look at a population map of China - so they can make a fortune from trade. The Imperial's therefore represent the status quo of Chinese society, the merchants, lords and Emperor himself.
China 1 on the other hand controls much larger amounts of land and more (smaller) towns. They can make their money from farming. They would represent the revolting rice farming peasantry and lords who are no longer loyal to the distant Emperor.
Personally I just think a state of out and out war between these two culturally similar yet opposing factions would be great and would create an intriguing political situation - like the one Shifty described. A trade blockade against China 2 would cripple them, yet at the same time China 1 must crush its bitter enemy before the demons (or possibly the mongols) arrive to give them a greater threat. China 2 must either break out, hold out or be destroyed. I know the main enemy of the game is meant to be the demons - but it would be too easy to beat them if a untied front was presented against them - the domestic struggle in China could be the reason they have decided to invade the weakened human world.
Marshal Murat
01-15-2005, 00:10
http://www.awrate.com/chrishogg/images/BLmap3.jpg
Japan 1 & 2
Aren't they supposed to be seperate Shogunates?
Anyway, I'm goning to give a little strategy for India.
India
India is lucky. To the north is a large range of mountains, easily defended by forts and troops. To the east is the to be rich lands of "indo china". South and west is water, open water. Advance to indo-china, focus your resources in that area. Build up as many horsemen, light troops, and then heavy troops.
(my suggestion is to have Peasents and the Kisnapur as the lights, a few scouts and lancers, and then Golden and Gurkas)
The Demon Horde, across the river and bay will be advancing, however thier hordes will need time to build.
As you advance, one province nearby will have a river. March in with three armies. One army will advance across of the mountains foothills to the river bordering China 1. Mostly horsemen, and light troops to secure the area, the heavy troops come up to support. The second will be the same as the first. However advance quickly in a swinging motion, across the pennisula and then up to the southern end of the river bordering China 1. Heavy troops will naturally follow. The third will follow the second south, and round up the end of the pennisula. If China 1 has moved across the river, have your horsemen just poke and prod (ambushes). Heavy troops that follow will help with the main battle. Hold all the rivers. Crucial. Mark every river crossing with a tower. At the China river border, build a fort at every ford, bridge etc. Don't allow the Chinese to gain footholds, because they can just pour in troops. After gaining the Indo China theater, build troops. Soon China will crack open that small series of forts you have. Be prepared. India should be prepared for a war with China sooner or later. When that happens, march up and destory the Chinese. Between every mountain region, build forts, you want to stay on the defensive, against the Demons. Then, at your whim, move to take out the rest.
Ellesthyan
01-15-2005, 00:40
I really like this map. It's set-up lends itself for a gameplay comparable to the boardgame Diplomacy (if you happen to know it). It features a very limited amount of provinces, and a certain un-balance. However, if the AI could handle it, the lesser empires should be able to gain strength with good alliances and multiple backstabs...
India is here the big mammoth. However, I'd like to see China as a well populated area, with relatively a lot of cities. Important (very) is that the two chinas are seperated either by a geocraphic obstacle (a river, for example) or by options; meaning that the factions would rather battle everyone else but their neighbour. That is necessary to make both factions 'different'. If it is necessary for them to first take their brother out, you'll be facing the same Chinese every game.
I'd love to hear what kind of fluff you've planned already on the factions. I fear I am totally ignorant of Far Eastern mythology :embarassed: ... And I don't think I'm the only one. Keep up the great work!
shifty157
01-15-2005, 00:42
Starting diplomatic states are bad. They force players to take certain moves rather than giving them the freedom to do what they wish. This includes both starting alliances and starting 'at war' status. I fully recommend starting neutrality for each faction including the demons.
khalifah does have a point in keeping China 2 surrounded. Setting background stories aside it makes for quite an interesting (and difficult) starting situation. It makes China 2 very unique in the strategies that youll have to use. Relying more on diplomacy to stay alive long enough until the opportunity for expansion presents itself. Esentially keeping an alliance with China 1 until the chance for backstabbing is ripe. Extending the border north to allow for expansion can lead to interesting situations on its own. China 2 could in effect grow to completely surround China 1. Thats just speculation though. In the end do whatever you want to do. Interesting situations make for interesting strategies and interesting gameplay. Dont worry very much about a faction being too weak. Worry more about a faction being too powerful.
Thoughts on the monks
The monk islands seem rather anticlimactic. Youve just finished off a 100 year war against the demons and you now own all of the mainland. Your only objective left is the 4 provinces of the monk islands. With the military capability youll have by that point in the game you should be able to flood the monk islands with at least 6 full armies. Seige all of their cities that turn and storm them all on the next turn. The invasion is over in 2 turns. There are many options to take care of this (if you even want to). Its up to you to choose which you think will be best. You perhaps make each of their units be incredibly ultra powerful. 1 monk unit could cut through 3 or 4 elite units with perhaps half casualties. This would make any battle against them incredibly difficult. You in effect force the player to knowingly sacrifice an army or 2 just to deal a few casualties to a monk army so that a third army can come in and finish them off. Itd be hard at first but once the initial defences are cracked then the rest should be generally easy. Mostly just mopping up. On the other hand ou could make it a victory condition that the monk faction must still be alive at the end of the campaign. Instead of conquering the monks you must now protect them. They have the forces to hold out but any concentrated attack can threaten them. This would almost force you to place the monk faction on the mainland where it can easily fall into danger. Perhaps place them where the mongols currently are. They wont be expanding and they are directly in the path of the demon horde. Forcing you (and the other factions) to possibly drop your own wars to protect the monks against the demons. Any attack on the monks by any faction would be considered a declaration of war against every other faction. Those are just two possibilities i thought up off the top of my head. With a bit of thought you could probably come up with dozens more that will more fit what you want in your campaign. I definitely think that the monk faction needs some serious reconsideration though.
Marshal Murat
01-15-2005, 02:41
I think Hoggy put it that the monks will have superstrong, supersmall armies. However, they could build huge fleets, and protect the island from sea.
Insanely powerful monk armies would be cool, where one monk unit is able to kill 2 or 3 elite units before it falls, and is easily able to take on thousands of peasants at once. That would make the final battle for the monk homelands very climactic and difficult.
blindfaithnogod
01-15-2005, 19:27
I am the one hoggy has entrusted with the making of the campaign map. and that said i just got a working map done. with all provinces set. still need to edit the descr_strat and move the provinces around to get factions together. but this is a start.
http://images5.theimagehosting.com/campmap.jpg
kendonosensei
01-21-2005, 18:01
Ok the campaign map looks good at the moment. I think the lack of naval assets is fine.
Keep it up!
blindfaithnogod
01-26-2005, 01:16
i would like to update everyone on my progress. the map its self is pretty much done. minus the apearence changes of the cities and armies. and more testing needs to be done. to make sure i dont have any over sights on my part. the resources are in there. they will probably need to be tweaked later on. i have yet to have a look at adding wonders. but i would like to see them in there, so ill get to it. right now im working on getting preliminary family trees set in game. :toilet: :tongue:
Seydlitz
02-05-2005, 14:16
I liked the original map better. ~:( I think you shoulda stuck to the old map, but instead of having the islands seperated by seas, have them separated by rivers so as to counteract the AI's seaborne stupidity. Like so:
http://img88.exs.cx/img88/9308/bluelotusisland0eb.jpg
Personally, I think it gives the mod more of a distinct feel. Maybe that's just me though! Otherwise, I love your mod! ~:cool:
My two cents,
- Seyd
shifty157
02-05-2005, 16:34
Well sorry to tell you dude but it is really too late for that. blindfaithnogod has been working on the other map for a while now and its almost done. And looking quite nice as well.
Did you already think of what kind of AI strategies will be appointed to the different factions (i.e. fortified ceaser, balanced mao etc.) in the descr_strat file? If not I could make a suggestion for each faction....
...and if you already have decided on them, would you like to share???
I don't think it's set in stone yet by all means post your suggestions Jay Tee. we'll be tweaking gameplay as we go along.
Hi Hoggy / blindfaithnogod / everyone else,
Here are my thoughts of the AI settings for each of the factions.
Before I start I should say that it is quite hard to find good info on this topic. The best reference I found is here: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/inde...showtopic=11196. It is also very possible that things have changed with the new patch 1.2 that has come out recently.
Besides that, the AI settings also depend on what character you would like the different factions to have. I couldn’t find that much on that in this forum. There is also the question if you want to make each faction as tough as possible or make them behave in an appropriate way according to their culture. I guess in the end it will be a combination of the two, but as I have no clear idea what the effect in the game will be I’ve focused on the cultural aspects.
The suggestions you see below are based on the following:
1. The image I have of each faction in actual history
2. The impression of the factions I got from reading the posts on this forum
3. I’ve tried to make the factions different from each other, esp. China 1 and 2 and Japan 1 and 2
4. These are suggestions meant to start a discussion about the ‘flavor’ each faction has. I think the final strats will have to be playtested extensively.
So there we go:
China 1: Fortified Mao (same as Spain)
Modelled on communist China. Focus on growth through farming and a strong military. Starting provinces have big area and are relatively poor.
China 2: Trader Smith (same as Scythia)
Modelled on Imperial China with rich upper class and poverty for the common people. Only two small starting provinces but two ports that could generate a lot of trade. Not very aggressive.
Demon Horde: Fortified Genghis (no representative in Imperial Campaign)
Speaks for itself: most aggressive faction with focus on military. According to the information I found the Genghis strat will lead to a lot of exterminations, so maybe it would be a good idea to give the starting provinces of the Demon Horde a larger population than average to make it possible for them to keep recruiting units.
India: Balanced Napoleon (no representative)
Balanced economy and mildly aggressive with no bad intentions towards conquered people (little to none extermination/enslavement).
Japan 1: Trader Ceasar (no representative)
Focus on trade and aggressive expansion. All starting provinces border the sea, so there will be a lot of trade possible. The riches generated by this are used to fund an expansion policy. In turn, by using enslavements even more wealth is created.
Japan 2: Fortified Stalin (no representative)
Poorer counterpart of Japan 1 with focus on a strong military and growth through farming. Is different from China 1 in that it is more aggressive.
Korea: Bureaucrat Mao (no representative)
Faction that is mostly turned inwards. Growth through agriculture and government that tries to control much of peoples daily life (like nowadays North Korea).
Mongolia: Balanced Genghis (same as Parthia)
Aggressive faction with a lot of exterminations. But building strategy is more balanced than the demons (not only focused on military).
Monks: Religious Henry (no representative)
Overall goal is to improve happiness, health and public order for the people. Besides that it tries to generate wealth by trade. This should be no problem with all the ports that are available. Is not aggressive at all.
Hope this is of any use, I’m curious what ya’ll think about it!!
Cheers,
JT
shifty157
02-12-2005, 00:05
The only problem i have is with korea. By making both of the two japans very aggressive and korea rather unagressive you effectively doom both it and Japan 2 from the beginning. Japan 1 will overwhelm Japan 2 with superior production capability without having to worry about Korea coming into the fray. Japan 1 can therefore conquer the entire Northern region at its leisure and without much trouble. I would say that all 3 of the northern factions should be equally aggressive.
blindfaithnogod
02-12-2005, 00:14
thats good stuff. it should give us a great starting point.
aye, very nice. One thing, will Religious Henry prevent the Monks from outward expansion? Ideally I'd like them to stay on their island but give them a very high starting wealth and army so they don't waste away and are still a very hard nut to crack. Perhaps we can just make it so that they are unable to build ships? (they will always be an unplayable faction)
@Hoggy: I'm not sure if there is any AI strat that can prevent the Monks from getting of their island. But I don't have enough info, so it will have to be tested I guess. From what I could find 'Religious' means that the AI will focus on building temples and buildings that increase happiness and health and 'Henry' means that the strategy is generating wealth by trade but taking in account peoples happiness/health. So that sounds quite passive to me ~:) .
BTW, the Senate in the imperial campaign is also very passive (only naval warfare), but has comfortable napoleon. This quite strange as Napoleon is supposed to mean a moderate aggressiveness. So maybe there is some other thing that makes the Senate so passive.
I guess your suggestion of not being able to build ships can always be used as a last resort. I think they should be able to build ports though, to generate enough trade.
@shifty157: You are probably right about Korea. Hoggy, what kind of faction do you want Korea to be? Do you think it would be in character if they would be more aggressive? I guess for the gameplay it would be better?!
Eastside Character
02-13-2005, 15:11
You can give the Monks ports and ships, but place ports in places where it's impossible to get (like surrounded by impassable dense forest or mountains), and make all the coasts of Monks' island cliffs (or other obstacles you want)so the Monks wouldn't be able to get their troops on ships and still be able to conduct sea warfare and trade.
Regards
EC
If you do that though, the player won't be able to invade the island. Just don't let them build ships.
Big_John
02-13-2005, 19:38
well, if you give them a huge starting wealth, why would they need to trade at all anyway?
Why arent the monks going to be playable?
HolsteinCow
02-17-2005, 03:28
In RTW vanilla, there's some kind of 'seafaring' trait for units.
Maybe you can turn it off for the Monk's army?
[GG]vonDöbeln
02-18-2005, 13:23
Can't you just make it so that the monks can't build ships? Difficult to leave the island swimming... ~;)
[GG]von Döbeln
Yeah, corsair monks seems strange to me..
The Panda Centurion
02-21-2005, 06:29
Either remove the ability of the Monks to build ships (recommended by me) or remove the seafaring trait in all Monk units. Either way will work, although i prefer no. 1 as the sea will not be choked by Buddhist corsairs. ~;)
- Panda
blindfaithnogod
03-15-2005, 00:56
i've been revamping the camp map. i will post some pictures later tonight. i hope some of you will find the revisions more exciting.
Edit: here are those pics i promised
http://img184.exs.cx/img184/6183/00066ac.jpg
http://img184.exs.cx/img184/7968/00040rn.jpg
http://img134.exs.cx/img134/7640/00026xk.jpg
http://img134.exs.cx/img134/313/00014ya.jpg
~:cheers:
No monks for asskicking? :furious3: Crazyness. I would recomend makign them playable w/ full ship abilities and seeing if you can make them more passive. Allied to all at beginning except demons?
blindfaithnogod
03-15-2005, 05:04
added pics look up
That's beautiful. It really looks like a real world. Awesome job! :bow:
Awsomeness!! What part of Asia is it?
Trajen the 1st
03-15-2005, 21:48
Wow! great work! but how did you do that with the terrian thoug? ~:confused:
Ive never seen a ground type like that in RTW did you make it or do you have a different version or somthing? ~:confused:
blindfaithnogod
03-15-2005, 22:34
hoggy has made new textures for some of the ground types.
Trajen the 1st
03-19-2005, 08:05
ohh...sweet! ~;)
randomhero210
04-11-2005, 00:58
It looks nice, but even more importantly, looks like theres some nice choke points. Great work!
GiantMonkeyMan
05-14-2005, 15:10
looks really interesting i've been a lurker for a while now and this mod looks great!!! how long are we expected to be waiting for a realease?
the map looks great! especially the new ground texture keep it up
blindfaithnogod
05-14-2005, 22:11
there's gossip about an expansion pack for RTW in september. and i would think this mod wont be out till that supposed expansion. that said it could take longer or it could take less time. hoggy still has to make a significant amout of models. he has 1 other guy helping make a few models. (for the mongels) but he's only done a couple. and were really not sure how much more he will do...... long story short, dont hold youre breath for a release. it will come when it comes.
but thanks for the intrest. it helps motivate.
there's gossip about an expansion pack for RTW in september. and i would think this mod wont be out till that supposed expansion. that said it could take longer or it could take less time. hoggy still has to make a significant amout of models. he has 1 other guy helping make a few models. (for the mongels) but he's only done a couple. and were really not sure how much more he will do...... long story short, dont hold youre breath for a release. it will come when it comes.
but thanks for the intrest. it helps motivate.
That could be to your advantage.
After all, with the expansion the Barbarians can create Hordes. So if you make the Demons be able to make hordes, it would be very interesting.
Ferocious_Imbecile
06-17-2005, 02:49
Very nice textures for the campaign map...
And it is cool that the monks are passive and not given to conquest, but still...it would be nice to be able to play the monks...I love their elan, their fanaticism, thier resilience and speed. They're the ultimate soldier of all the units I've ever played in TW...even some of the high tech Germanic super foot knights from MTW weren't as much fun as sending out a pack of warrior monks to create some mayhem..
Perhaps the route to go is to somehow make it impossible for the monks faction to actually conquer any other provinces but their own. That way,they could become this benevolent force, these allies to any civilized faction (not the demons or mongols) and thus a force of heroic rescuers able to fight as allies.
This would be a lot of fun. You could dispatch your forces (yes,with a navy) to help your allies in thier hour of need and fight off assaults on your own home island. I played the Danes like this once in MTW. I had all these allies and just kept going around helping them. It was with WesMod and my allies became incredibly loyal to me; I came to their rescue and they came to mine time and time again.
This gave rise to excellent 3 and 4 and even 5 faction battles. I think it was Me (the Danes) allied with the French and the HRE against the Mongols and all of us against a large native rebel force..That was a huge chaotic battle with many acts of outstanding selfless valour; the field was strewn with corpses when it was all over. Very satisfying..
GiantMonkeyMan
06-21-2005, 16:35
hey hoggy/blindfaithnogod can we have a few more updated pics of the finished campaign map please? i really want to see the complete map..... also could it be of the major points eg. monk island... japan... india etc cos i really want to see it... thanks! :bow: :bow: :bow:
GMM
Very nice textures for the campaign map...
And it is cool that the monks are passive and not given to conquest, but still...it would be nice to be able to play the monks...I love their elan, their fanaticism, thier resilience and speed. They're the ultimate soldier of all the units I've ever played in TW...even some of the high tech Germanic super foot knights from MTW weren't as much fun as sending out a pack of warrior monks to create some mayhem..
Perhaps the route to go is to somehow make it impossible for the monks faction to actually conquer any other provinces but their own. That way,they could become this benevolent force, these allies to any civilized faction (not the demons or mongols) and thus a force of heroic rescuers able to fight as allies.
This would be a lot of fun. You could dispatch your forces (yes,with a navy) to help your allies in thier hour of need and fight off assaults on your own home island. I played the Danes like this once in MTW. I had all these allies and just kept going around helping them. It was with WesMod and my allies became incredibly loyal to me; I came to their rescue and they came to mine time and time again.
This gave rise to excellent 3 and 4 and even 5 faction battles. I think it was Me (the Danes) allied with the French and the HRE against the Mongols and all of us against a large native rebel force..That was a huge chaotic battle with many acts of outstanding selfless valour; the field was strewn with corpses when it was all over. Very satisfying..
With the Braindead AI, I do not believe that would be possible. :( (To date, I have only kept an alliance going and developed a kind of comradeship with the AI through making Macedon my Protectorate. I bought my way into military-access so I could land and defeat the Brutii, not to mention sweeping up Italy to take some pressure off them as carthage, and yet they turned on me until for some reason they became my protectorate.)
It's an excellent idea, but it seems only feasable for the humans. Perhaps remove the island altogether, and if it is not too much work, develop them in the region of Tibet?
Also, if the Silk road is not going to be developed akin to Parthia and Armenia's ability to make it, perhaps there could be at the south-eastern edge of the map a few territories representing trade colonies in the Arabian sea or of one of the Eastern African trade nations? It might spark up more interest in trade and ability for some factions designed to be rich to make money.
I'm uncertain of the effect of huge tracks of land with no providences - it's why it seems most players stray from conquering the Scythian Territories. Is there a balancing reason behind the more spaced out providences and cities? It was a ploy to make empire's difficult in the old game/mods by having so many cities to manage.
Very much like it though! It's so refreshing to see an eastern Mod, and especially one which takes into account India.
Ferocious_Imbecile
07-06-2005, 18:48
With the Braindead AI, I do not believe that would be possible. :( (To date, I have only kept an alliance going and developed a kind of comradeship with the AI through making Macedon my Protectorate. I bought my way into military-access so I could land and defeat the Brutii, not to mention sweeping up Italy to take some pressure off them as carthage, and yet they turned on me until for some reason they became my protectorate.)
It's an excellent idea, but it seems only feasable for the humans. Perhaps remove the island altogether, and if it is not too much work, develop them in the region of Tibet?
Also, if the Silk road is not going to be developed akin to Parthia and Armenia's ability to make it, perhaps there could be at the south-eastern edge of the map a few territories representing trade colonies in the Arabian sea or of one of the Eastern African trade nations? It might spark up more interest in trade and ability for some factions designed to be rich to make money.
I'm uncertain of the effect of huge tracks of land with no providences - it's why it seems most players stray from conquering the Scythian Territories. Is there a balancing reason behind the more spaced out providences and cities? It was a ploy to make empire's difficult in the old game/mods by having so many cities to manage.
Very much like it though! It's so refreshing to see an eastern Mod, and especially one which takes into account India.
I like the idea of making the Persian Gulf and far Western silk road provinces potentially very valuable trade regions. It's sets up a whole different dynamic to the game, making thefactions struggle harder for a goal that will draw them right accross the map instead of just squabbling with their immediate neighbours..
The problem is with some people wanting to go invade those territories across the sea to conquer them, when they are supposde to represent trade routes in the Persian gulf (Or across the horn of africa). However, this may clash with the plans of Hoggy, whom could want a fantasy East, unaffliated with the West.
You brought up a very good point though, currently there's no reason to venture out and invade other territories (perhaps except India, which was said to be rich?) because there isn't the allure that existed in Vanilla.
Whatever the case, it would definately be for a future version. It's great as it stands right now. And I mean no offense to Hoggy or any developer or fan, just tossing out ideas.
I have a suggestion for china 1 and china 2.
I think a north south split would work better than the current east west split. china 1 gets the south and china 2 gets the north. It creates more possibilities in terms of game play.
Possibility 1:
a civil war broke out, both factions weakened and get invaded by other factions
Possibility 2:
civil war broke out but one dominates the other very quickly. China unified and start outward expansion
Possibility 3:
stay in peace, china 1 goes north and collide with korea, mongol and japan. while china 2 goes south and collide with india
BTW, historically, north south split of china is quite common.
sorry...
I mean china 1 goes south and china 2 goes north in possibility 3...
Ragabash
10-18-2005, 20:34
Absolutely awesome work.
IPoseTheQuestionYouReturnTheAnswer
10-19-2005, 10:36
I was looking at the map screenshots, and I can't help but ask....why is Japan not an island?
I know that it's a fantasy mod and all, but making Japan into a peninsula greatly distorts things. I mean, it's Japan...when you think of Japan and its geography...you think 'island'. Other than that, the campaign map screen are excellent.
randomhero210
10-19-2005, 17:43
I was looking at the map screenshots, and I can't help but ask....why is Japan not an island?
I know that it's a fantasy mod and all, but making Japan into a peninsula greatly distorts things. I mean, it's Japan...when you think of Japan and its geography...you think 'island'. Other than that, the campaign map screen are excellent.
the biggest reason I can think of is that the game's AI doesn't handle attacking islands well. If I can play most of the game without worrying about too much of the naval aspect, I'll be happy. Feels too tacked on for my tastes.
GiantMonkeyMan
10-19-2005, 20:29
i think as hoggy put it: 'the map will be asia but altered by chinese whispers'
i like the idea that the map is all fantasy.. and besides the ai does suck at attacking to and from islands (scipii)
IPoseTheQuestionYouReturnTheAnswer
10-19-2005, 22:01
I suppose the AI thing makes sense, though I never saw a problem with island AI. The Scipii and Britons always fought far into the mainland. Though I do have to admit that while AI seems to know how to attack from an island and get onto the mainland, it's no good at actually invading island. So I suppose the point makes sense.
I know it's a map "altered by chinese whispers", I just thought it was strange to see that Japan was the only big change made to it....even the Monk's island is just a slightly altered version of the Phillipines, and aside from those two changes, it's an exact copy of Asia.
blindfaithnogod
11-09-2005, 01:54
just wanted to give you guys an update on the conversion to 1.3. ive finally, with more CTD's than i can count, got the map ported over.... with one BIG problem.. the map heights are really screwed.... here's a pic to illustrate my dilemma.
https://img381.imageshack.us/img381/3892/bluelotus9wp.th.jpg (https://img381.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bluelotus9wp.jpg)
see all those little ponds, in 1.2 they were not there, now that we have to use the hgt generater, its got it all f'ed up........
Ooooops.... I think we get a lot of ponds
How time consuming is it to fix this?
This mod is in its count down and I'm sure the team can fix this!
Keep up the great works :bow: :bow: :bow:
GiantMonkeyMan
11-09-2005, 08:38
it's a shame that happened... i think it happened for the jidai no ran team as well from what screens of their map i have seen...
btw that is an amazing radar map with the skeleton.... looks class!
Geoffrey S
11-09-2005, 17:37
Good luck fixing it. The interface looks great, perfect for the theme, particularly the map.
Good luck fixing it. The interface looks great, perfect for the theme, particularly the map.
well I was about to say something like this. not only the GUI is nice but also the terrain textures.
Spendios
11-13-2005, 21:38
This map looks great ! Good luck with the mod !
A thought: The map will often look barren with few cities, which can hurt the physical value of the map (See BI).
You could modify hidden_resources (if this is possible) so as to create "Village" hiddenresources, modeled to look like small/large villiages, which can be placed on the map, with bonuses to population and trade and such, and help give places a purely aesthitistic value.
That sounds likea good point Sahran, the problem being from as far as I can tell is that I have never seen a 'small villiage' before in this game except the fishing villiage, which probs can't be placed on the map unless it's next to a water feature etc.
Of course im just guessing, but i think it would look fine without IMHO.
Yeah, that's the issue, but I had thought you may be able to add in a new model for the game's files involving resources on the map.
A thought: The map will often look barren with few cities, which can hurt the physical value of the map (See BI).
You could modify hidden_resources (if this is possible) so as to create "Village" hiddenresources, modeled to look like small/large villiages, which can be placed on the map, with bonuses to population and trade and such, and help give places a purely aesthitistic value.
I saw a screenshot of houses/villages wich were placed on the map as trees.
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