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frisian28ad
01-13-2005, 16:29
Hello,

First of all I hope I don't cross a line here or something by making my second topic on the same subject. I posted the topic about the Frisan unit (Just curious), and I had to agree with you (eadingas) after thorougly doing my research. That a specific Frisian unit would not be a big enough contribution to your project. Every small tribe could get its own unit, and there is off course not enough space to do this. I am a minor amateur historian :book: compared with you guys, so do not judge me to harsh. I know more then you may think.
!Please do not stop reading! on this point
So I restarted my reasearch for a Dutch orientated unit that you could implement. So after a day of searching on the internet, reading my books and calling around. I come stumbled on a small Germanic tribe: the Batavians (anchestors of the Dutch). They had an apperently famous unit that served in the Roman army. To be honest I never heard of them, but they were remarkable soldiers. And I live in Friesland, the Netherlands, I could not understand how I could oversee them, now was I always more interested in the my own anchestors, then those of the Dutch.
But the Batavorum equitata is a historical heavy cavalry unit, that EB in it's fight for historical accuracy cannot skip. I started a topic (Batavian Imperial Mounted Guard) about the Batavians on the EB forum. With no replies or comments, so I am affraid it dies a slow dead. :help:
That would be a big shame, and a loss for your project. Because after you heared my arguments, they easily can replace the mounted Praetorians as the heavy cavalry of the Romans, following historical accuracy off course. It also would spice the boring Romans a bit up, which makes this only more interesting right?
So I beg you give it chance. My firts plea on the forum topic is written fast Batavian Imperial Mounted Guard, and is of poor quality. Please read some of it so you can get a better picture of my unit. But I am willing to make a good written wordfile for you about the Batavians with all the details to send to you.
I follow this project for a long time, way before RTW was released. I have great respect for the historical accuracy you are trying to implement. This is a chance for you to do it once again. So please give it a chance, not a slow death. I am willing to do everything to get this great unit in EB. Even join EB, though that would an honor. Take at least good look and let me know your opinions about it .
So ends my second plea, and I hope is has effect. Let me know... ~:handball:

Greetings.... :bow:

My wordfile about the Batavians is finished, if you are interested comment and let me email it to you.

sharrukin
01-13-2005, 17:22
I for one agree with you about the Batavian Cavalry. The point has been raised before, but some time ago.
What exact information do you have on them?
Armour worn, primary source descriptions, horse type descriptions, colour of their cloaks, etc. The more you have the more attention you will get.

PROMETHEUS
01-13-2005, 18:05
Post primary secondary or even third evidence to be looked at please....

frisian28ad
01-13-2005, 19:58
The Batavorum Equitata (The Batavian Mounted Guard)

This document should give you a good view on the Batavorum Equitata, who they were, where they came from and why they were so special.

1. The Batavians (ancestors of the Dutch)

Three tribes
The Batavians were one of the three Germanic tribes who lived in the territory that we now know as the Netherlands. In the north lived the independent Frisians, the biggest of the Germanice tribes, they lived in the north of the Netherlands and the preserved there ancient name till this time. One of the northern provinces is still called Friesland. The second tribe the Canninefates covered the west-coast of the Netherlands. They partly fell under the Roman reign, and they were loyal allies to the Romans, supplying them with soldiers for there auxiliaries. The Canninefates were a rather small and minor tribe, who were almost the same as there slightly bigger neighbors, the Batavians.
The Batavians had there territory in the middle of the Netherlands, what now is called the Betuwe. A marshland between two rivers, the Maas and the Rhine. There capital Oppidum Batavorum (later destroyed in the Batavian revolt, and rebuilt as Ulpia Noviomagus Batavorum), modern-day Nijmegen is the Netherlands oldest city and this year is its 2500 year anniversary.

Greatly influenced
The Batavians were a very Romanized tribe, always very loyal to the Romans as one of the few Germanic tribes. The next example shows how impressed the Batavians were by the Romans. That made them to mix certain aspects of the Roman culture with there own. The Romans called the Batavian god Donar, Hercules Magusanus. Because of the resemblance with there god Hercules, the Batavians took this over. There are many founding’s of Batavian pictures that distinctively show Hercules with his lion skin and club. Hercules Magusanus was the god of war, and was worshipped by the Batavian warriors. There are lots of inscriptions found of Hercules Magusanus, in Rome, Great-Britain and Germany. This shows that the Batavians served in the Roman army scattered through the empire.
The Romans respected the proud Batavians, and treated them as equals. They maintained there autonomy, and only had to pay taxes. The Batavians were described by the Romans as tall figures with brightly blonde hair tight up in knot, with bright blue eyes, cloaked in animal skin. But after contact with the Romans, the historians conclude that the Batavians were greatly influenced in there clothing by Rome. They even started to give there children and there selfs Roman names, trying to be taken more seriously by the Romans. Desperately trying to please them and trying to live up to the high Roman standards. But they never forgot who they were; on every tombstone they always had written the word ‘Bataaf’ (Batavian). They eventually would be known in Rome as noble civilised people but still barbarics. The Batavians were very versatile; they were excellent horsemen and even better swimmers. Because there territory was not good farming ground, they lived form trading and fighting. That made them a real warrior tribe.


2. The Batavorum Equitata

Tactics and special capabilities
The Batavians were excellent warriors, and the Romans though they not had to fight them recognized this. They started to recruit them mainly to fill up there ranks for there cavalry units. The Batavians distinct there selfs, with a capability the Romans had not seen before. The Batavians were strong and tall enough to could cross deep and large waters mounted or along side there horse, in full armor keeping there formation. There are even sources that tell of foot soldiers who hung alongside the Batavians while crossing water, using the Batavians as raft to cross water fast. But foot soldiers were also send along with the Batavians to hung along side to keep the weapons of the elite Batavians dry. They also had the capability to react in formation as fast as large group of fish (plaice) on the battlefield. Well organized without flaws. Used by Roman commanders as shock troopers and heavy cavalry. They were almost allways stationed in northern border area's. So they could ride out and quickly break small incursions.

Robin Hood
Batavian warriors were very versatile, and skilled in the use of any weapon. In there is famous Roman story about a Batavian rider, Soranus. In 118 AD he shot an arrow high in to the air and while his first arrow was quivering through the skies, he shot a second arrow breaking the first on in flight. Soranus was the Robin Hood of his time, Romans dared to say that there Batavian was no match for a Parthian or any other archer. But not only Soranus was an excellent archer, all the Batavians were. They became the elite mounted unit of the Romans, highly respected through the Roman ranks, praised by Tacitus.

An imperial gift
The Batavians were even given a main temple for there main god Hercules Magusanus, for Batavian standards a marvellous structure they never could have build themselves, lacking the expertise and money. It is thought to be a personal project financed with money from the emperor himself. An inscription was found, with the words roughly translated: Because the Batavian people supply us with fine soldiers.

People fully committed to the Roman army
From demographic research is known that every Batavian family had one or more sons in the Roman army. Always supplying the Roman army with loyal soldiers. But there are more sources to back this up, with excavations in the territory of the Batavians there were numerous certificates of Batavian sons who had returned successfully from military training with the Batavorum Equitata, returning to home waiting to be stationed. There were about 5000 Batavian riders in the Roman army, all having there own cohorts, for example; the Cohors Primae Batavorum equitata.
After a 25 year service in the Roman army, the Batavian veterans were granted the Roman citizenship. This was highly unusual for auxiliary troops, that once again points out the special place they had in the Roman army. The veterans always returned to there homelands. They always took there armor with them, to sacrifice it to there god Hercules Magusanus. Thankful that they did not in died in combat, and lived long to fight as many battles as possible.

The Imperial Mounted Bodyguards
The excellence of the Batavians was not unnoticed by the Roman emperors. They eventually were granted the task to protect the emperor. Not only because of there impressive tall blonde appearances, but also knowing the fact they were the most fierce and committed bodyguards an emperor could wish for. As Tacitus writes: The emperors trusted the Batavians, says Tacitus, "because they were foreign." (Tacitus, Ann. 15.58). They even got there own barracks and practise grounds within the walls of Rome, which again was highly unusual for any military unit, especially non-Roman.
The job of imperial bodyguards was practiced with fiery passion. After Emperor Caligula was murdered during games, the Batavians in there frustration failing to protect there emperor, killed everyone in there way through Rome in search of the murderers.
The mounted Batavian unit in Rome contained about 500 riders, all fully committed to the emperor.

3. How did they look?

The head
As impressive, as how they fought. Being elite among the auxiliary the Batavians wear iron helmets. Unusual because if the Romans supplied armour to there auxilia, it was made of bronze or poor quality. The helmets they wear were the Robinson Type G and H, mostly decorated with black plumes, black feathers and blonde wigs giving it a Batavian touch. Under there helmets they wear facemasks, the Batavians did not painted there faces, instead they wear masks in combat (there are many cavalry facemasks found in and around Nijmegen). It is known they already did this before they met the Romans. It was thought that the masks that were found only were used in parades or cavalry sports (Hippika Gymnasia). But it is almost certain that the Batavians wear them also in battle, because there are battle damaged masks found on battle sites and around Nijmegen. Around neck they wear a white stroke of linen (folca),

The body armor
Mainly they wear sleeveless scale armor (loricae squamatae), without shoulder pads. With an extra iron decorated chest plate (pectorale), or several iron decorated crests. Under there armour they wear a thick wool tunica with sleeves till the elbow. Attached on the tunica was leather subarmalis or undercoat, with long strokes of leather (pteryges) on the shoulders and hips. Around his waist or shoulder he wear a broad leather belt called the balteus, decorated with sowed in Germanic patterns and decorated round iron crests. In the middle of the belt was one big decorated iron crest called the phalera. Leather half long pants (feminalia), high leather boots (caligae) and a long dark green cloak completed the body armor. The colours they wear the most are darkgreen, black, brown and small red touches (reminding them of who they served, the Romans)
The horses wear leather Batavian saddles, and sometimes also a facemask.

The weapons
On top of the body armor they wear a flat six cornered shield, decorated with Germanic or Anglo-Gallic motifs. The oval shield was abandoned, because the six cornered shield was found more practical in combat.
There main weapons were the basta the 2 m 60 long shocking spear. That was used in the initial attack and in first contact, to shock the enemy. After they breached deep into the enemy formation, they would switch to there spatha an 85 cm long piercing and cleaving sword. They also used bow and arrow, but not usual. It did not fit in the way they liked to fight, to surprise the enemy hit them as hard as possible, retreating leaving the enemy in chaos turn back and hit them again.

Pictures to give you an idea:

http://archeonet.nl/pix/foto/3251.jpg
A Batavian rider, found in Nijmegen

http://www.noviomagus.nl/Blik/98-10/Afbeelding%208.jpg
Noviomagus

http://www.chariovalda.nl/plaatjes/Magis-Valaeda-kleur.jpg
A Batavian rider returning to his homeland

http://home.wanadoo.nl/bemelen/history/borst.jpg
A restored scale armor with a chest plate found in Bemelen, the southern Netherlands . Notice the right figure, it is Hercules with his club and lion skin. The small figures are seahorses, referring to there special capability.

http://home.wanadoo.nl/bemelen/history/romein.jpg
A Batavian rider

http://network54.com/Realm/thiudareiks/batmask2.jpg
Batavian mask worn in battle

http://www.livius.org/a/1/germania/batavians_map.gif

http://www.livius.org/a/1/germania/loot.jpg
Batavians looting Roman soldiers after there revolt, notice the old man and child only on foot. In the revolt al the capable men were discharged riders in the Roman army.

http://www.romancoins.info/milit-cavalrymask.jpg
A Batavian helmet with remnants of blonde wig, Nijmegen museum

http://www.romancoins.info/milit-mask-N.jpg
A Batavian mask, Nijmegen museum.

http://www.archeos.nl/images/rt-int-batav-1.jpg
Batavian rider crossing a river in full armor.

http://www.archeos.nl/images/rt-int-romleg-1.jpg
Batavian helmet, Rijksmuseum Leiden (Netherlands).

http://www.akg-images.co.uk/_customer/london/images/en/collections
Batavians showing there skills, in a cavalry show.

http://www.livius.org/a/1/germania/kalkriese_mask.jpg
A Batavian mask found in on the side of the Teutoburger Wald battle, proofs that the Batavians also fought with there masks.

That is it for now here are some english links, I used mainly dutch links:
http://www.roman-britain.org/military/coh1bat.htm
http://www.esg.ndirect.co.uk/Gentlemen.htm
http://www.i-friesland.com/Tacitus_tribes.htm
http://www.livius.org/ba-bd/batavians/revolt01.html
http://www.ancientworlds.net/aw/Post/157090

frisian28ad
01-13-2005, 21:18
I did some research on the horses the Batavians could have used. It is likely they used a Fries a horse that was allready used in the Netherlands 3000 years ago, one of the oldest breeds in Europe from the northern Netherlands. The Romans saw its potential and it was taken as warhorse to conquer Britain (the horse from collin in the movie alexander is also a Fries). Friesians are bred black, but in the time of the Batavians they were mainly darkbrown. So I dare without any doubt to say this was the horse the Batavians used. :charge:

http://www.geocities.com/paardenrassen/Fries_12.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/paardenrassen/fries_steigerend.jpg

!Notice the long manes, and see the resemblance on the first picture of my second reply!

PROMETHEUS
01-13-2005, 21:34
Actually I haven't seen real proves sorry , Post me original fonts in latin or greek , also the masks you posted are from this page and ar sports cavalry helmets , some tought they were used in competitions held by roman cavalry but others tend to think that they where really used in combat as from here derives in a sort of prestage the medieval facemask helmets.....

it served to incute fear on opponents.... as well as protection...

here (http://www.romancoins.info/MilitaryEquipment-Facemasks.html)

Aymar de Bois Mauri
01-13-2005, 21:36
I follow this project for a long time, way before RTW was released. I have great respect for the historical accuracy you are trying to implement. This is a chance for you to do it once again. So please give it a chance, not a slow death. I am willing to do everything to get this great unit in EB. Even join EB, though that would an honor.Then send me a PM...

frisian28ad
01-13-2005, 22:24
[QUOTE=PROMETHEUS]Actually I haven't seen real proves sorry , Post me original fonts in latin or greek , also the masks you posted are from this page and ar sports cavalry helmets , some tought they were used in competitions held by roman cavalry but others tend to think that they where really used in combat as from here derives in a sort of prestage the medieval facemask helmets.....QUOTE]

I am sorry buit I cannot read any Latin or Greek, I used mainly Dutch sources. And I guesse your don't read Dutch. What do you mean that you haven't seen any real proves? That they excisted, well they really did, here tombstone of a Batavian rider found in Rome http:// .

The mask issue, you may decide if they wear them in battle or not. I can only say that if they wear only used for cavalry games there would not be found so many in the surroundings of Nijmegen only for use in a game. Yes about the golden mask you are obiously right,I just post it to give you an idea, and well done tracing the site back, it was just the most detailed picture. I called the Nijmegen museum about the Batavians, and they helped me with giving me information all there is to know about the Batavians they know. I haven't recorded the conversation on the phone so.... sorry. Unfortunatly I do not have a scanner so I could scan some more pictures from a book I bougth some years ago in the museum.
Well I am affraid this is all I have, it is your decision now. Here a final link:http://www.ourcivilisation.com/smartboard/shop/tacitusc/histries/chap14.htm
If you have the book of Tacitus, you have your Latin source, because Tacitus describes the Batavians. Well that is all I can do there are no more pictures that I can post. This is it.... I am afraid.
There is allways the possibility to go to the museum in Nijmegen.....

Greetings.....

frisian28ad
01-13-2005, 22:25
Sorry here is your tombstone

http://www.archeos.nl/images/rt-int-batav-2.jpg

frisian28ad
01-14-2005, 01:17
Some sources to strengthen my case.

I quote Lawrence Keppie from his book The making of the Roman army from Republic to Empire
:Augustus also maintained from the Civil Wars a small 'personal protection' squad, Germani corporis custodes (German bodyguards) drawn from tribes of the Rhineland.:

I quote Adrian Goldsworthy from his book The complete Roman army
:Attached to the praetorian guard was cavalry force whisch steadily grew in size, which along with the emperor's horse guards (equites singularis Augusti) reached a peak of 2.000 men at the end of the 2nd century AD. These men were specially chosen from the auxiliary cavalry and trained to a very high standard.:

That was by the way also the only time the equites singularis Augusti, were mentioned. In the complete Roman army. So even solid non-Dutch sources, mention my unit.

This are solid sources, not from a reinacting site nor a miniature site :rtwno: .

If you doubt the to writers above here some links:
http://www.hunterian.gla.ac.uk/people/lkeppie/ljfk.html
Just type Adrian Goldsworthy on google and you get an idea (could not find so fast find any biographic info about him).

Lets continue this discussion on the Cry for help topic ~:cheers:

Greetings..... :bow:

PSYCHO V
01-14-2005, 02:23
(*cough*) not to be killjoy ...but am I the only one to note the anochronic use of this data. It's out of the time period.

Belgium and Netherlands were inhabited by Belgae / Celts in this period ... else we may as well add hordes of Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Vandals, Huns, Alans, etc etc ad naseum.

PROMETHEUS
01-14-2005, 09:48
not to be killjoy ...but am I the only one to note the anochronic use of this data. It's out of the time period.
Not you aren't .also the equites singulares augusti was recruited and acted as bodyguard for a very small period , anyway there is not writted , or I haven't read that they where Batavians, just romanized germans...

frisian28ad
01-14-2005, 14:51
(*cough*) not to be killjoy ...but am I the only one to note the anochronic use of this data. It's out of the time period.

Belgium and Netherlands were inhabited by Belgae / Celts in this period ... else we may as well add hordes of Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Vandals, Huns, Alans, etc etc ad naseum.

The Netherlands were definetly not inhabited by the Belgae and Celts. If you could give the tribes in the Netherlands one name it would be Germanic. The Germans setteled in the Netherlands 600 BC, they came on rafts on the Rhine and crossed our border at Lobith. I do not know your timeframe but the Batavians were recruted in the auxiliary around 20 to 10 BC, if it is out of the timeframe, well then you should not implement them off course.
Anyway the Batavians lived in the Netherlands from the late 1st century BC.

And that you (prometheus) have not read any sources that it weren't Batavians fine, but I have called the museum (Nijmegen) even spoke to a curator (how solid do you want the evidence to be, or do just not trust the dutch sources???? we are not blabbering idiots over here you know :furious3: ), because I also noticed that in my English books stood germans instead of batavians. They just used the general term germans for them. Though Keppie writes Germans from the Rhineland (Batavians) they are just not that specific!!!
The elite bodyguard served longer then you say (Prometheus), from August they were called Germani corporis custodes, and in 69 AD they were disbanded, but raised again under Emperor Trajan as equites singularis Augusti (still recruted in the Netherlands)a nd they excisted till the 4 century BC.

Well I am tired of trying to proof my right, so implement them or not at this point I do not really care anymore, I just thought I found a nice unit for your project, but apparently I was wrong ~:confused: . That happens sometimes right? I admire your (EB) struggle to get it historicly right, so I thougth to had enough solid sources to give a good view on the Batavians, the drawings of the Batavians were based on excavations at Nijmegen and Bemelen (Netherlands), you use osprey pictures as a reference for your units or miniatures. If you do want to implement them I am willing to help. For now Tacitus (or does he not count as a real source?) describes the Batavians vividly, so you can check that I did not made the whole tribe up.

Greetings..... (I meant no disrespect) :bow:

PSYCHO V
01-14-2005, 17:17
The Netherlands were definetly not inhabited by the Belgae and Celts. If you could give the tribes in the Netherlands one name it would be Germanic. The Germans setteled in the Netherlands 600 BC, they came on rafts on the Rhine and crossed our border at Lobith.

The Celts had pushed up all the way to the Ems. The Germans didn't kick them out till the beginning of the 4th C BC. So no Germans in the Netherlands in 600 BC.

https://usera.imagecave.com/PSYCHO/4thEC.JPG


Anyway the Batavians lived in the Netherlands from the late 1st century BC.


Arr yer...they didn't even exist until the 1st C BC, they were part of the Chatii tribe. After a civil war they followed the Rhine west and moved into the Netherlands late 1st C BC. Settling on a small island near Nijmegen.


I do not know your timeframe but the Batavians were recruted in the auxiliary around 20 to 10 BC

These guys only appear at the very end of the RTW period. There are many major tribes that played a much larger role in the period that will be overlooked due to constraints. Further, making a unit of them and we'll no doubt end up with Batavians turning up 100s of years before they even existed. Like introducing Tiger tanks to Napoleonic battlefields.

my2bob

frisian28ad
01-14-2005, 20:11
[QUOTE=PSYCHO V]The Celts had pushed up all the way to the Ems. The Germans didn't kick them out till the beginning of the 4th C BC. So no Germans in the Netherlands in 600 BC.

https://usera.imagecave.com/PSYCHO/4thEC.JPG



Arr yer...they didn't even exist until the 1st C BC, they were part of the Chatii tribe. After a civil war they followed the Rhine west and moved into the Netherlands late 1st C BC. Settling on a small island near Nijmegen.



These guys only appear at the very end of the RTW period. There are many major tribes that played a much larger role in the period that will be overlooked due to constraints. Further, making a unit of them and we'll no doubt end up with Batavians turning up 100s of years before they even existed. Like introducing Tiger tanks to Napoleonic battlefields.

Germanen in de lage landen
Germanen is de ruime verzamelnaam voor allerlei stammen die zich omstreeks 1000 v.Chr. vanuit het oosten over Europa verspreidden. Ze vestigden zich vooral in West-Europa en langs de grote rivieren en vermengden zich met de Keltische bevolking die ze soms aan hun gezag onderwierpen.

Germans in the low lands
Germans is general term for many tribes who around 1000 BC spread over Europe from the east. They mainly settled themselves in Western-Europe, and along the main rivers mixing with the celtic people.

tis is from a dutch site called 20centuries of the Netherlands

http://www.20eeuwennederland.nl/thema's/vreemdelingen/de%20eerste%20nederlanders/789.html

But anyways I stop with this, a yes it is/no it is discussion, the Batavians won't be implented. I did not want the tribe implemented only the auxliary unit who served in the Roman army, please read my previous posts!!

khelvan
01-14-2005, 20:14
Well I am tired of trying to proof my right, so implement them or not at this point I do not really care anymore, I just thought I found a nice unit for your project, but apparently I was wrong ~:confused: .Do not be offended, this is an exercise that we go through for ALL new units. In fact, it isn't unheard of for such discussions to go on for days. We have had several that have gone on for weeks now.

No one means any offense or anything personal, and no one says that anyone else is stupid or that they are idiots. If we got tired of it after only a few posts, we would never get anywhere. We're a bunch of academics, or at least academics at heart, who really enjoy this sort of back-and-forth, as it increases everyone's level of knowledge. Don't bow out of the discussion, that would be a shame.

DemonArchangel
01-14-2005, 21:03
Ala Singularis would make more sense than Batavian cavalry.
After all, what are the chances that the Romans would recruit SPECIFICALLY Batavians? Why not parthian auxiliaries, or dacians, or samartians, or macedonians?

A generalized bodyguard unit would make sense. Think about this: What if you don't conquer that area? You would still need a bodyguard cavalry though for game purposes.

PROMETHEUS
01-15-2005, 00:10
Ala Singulares Augusti was just the name with wich was referred to the emperor's cavalry bodyguard and as such they watched over him and ensured his safety wherever he went.
They served as parade troops in the capital and as crack troops, forming an elite strategic reserve. Through them the emperors also secured the loyalty and training of frontier troops. Recruited mostly first among German tribes, especially the Batavi, but not only those ones so other countries soldiers as well could find place in it and later also among Danubian peoples, and were housed in their own forts in Rome. Chosen for strength, good looks and their ability to swim rivers in full battle gear, they were a striking sight, as recorded in both written accounts and art.

eadingas
01-15-2005, 00:38
Doesn't the game end if you get chosen an Emperor? Isn't it then a bit redundant to have Imperial Bodyguard unit? :)

frisian28ad
01-15-2005, 01:47
Doesn't the game end if you get chosen an Emperor? Isn't it then a bit redundant to have Imperial Bodyguard unit? :)

Yeah yeah been there done that, anything else? Why is there then a praetorian guard in the game, or were you planning to threw them out of the game?

The Wizard
01-15-2005, 03:29
(*cough*) not to be killjoy ...but am I the only one to note the anochronic use of this data. It's out of the time period.

Belgium and Netherlands were inhabited by Belgae / Celts in this period ... else we may as well add hordes of Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Vandals, Huns, Alans, etc etc ad naseum.Actually, this time you are wrong. The Netherlands had been a Germanic area ever since the Germans migrated into the area of the Rhine frontier. Understandably, however, they were far more under the influence of the Celtic Belgae than other Germanic tribes, and benifited from that.

Their position would probably mean that the tribes were more Celtic in blood than more easternly tribes. However, they were no Bastarnae and were still recognizably Germanic.

No, if we have the mod include Germanic territory on the Rhine, there is nothing wrong with the Batavii.



~Wiz

PSYCHO V
01-15-2005, 09:23
Ok ~:) ..there was a German presence in the north of the Netherlands by the beginning of RTW.. but no Batavians, and no Chatti in this area at all. Batavians turn up almost 200 years after RTW starts


Oh and frisian28ad (http://www.moviesoundclips.net/movies/gladiator/lions.wav) ..it's just healthy banter. Nothing personal, your amongst friends here.

PROMETHEUS
01-15-2005, 09:29
Doesn't the game end if you get chosen an Emperor? Isn't it then a bit redundant to have Imperial Bodyguard unit? :)


Yeah yeah been there done that, anything else? Why is there then a praetorian guard in the game, or were you planning to threw them out of the game?

Actually the game ends at 14 AD so the first Emperor was elected ....

the following units could be included even if they should appear very very very late in the game ....

Segmentata armour , (first model) from Teutoburgerwald discoveries...
Praetorian , Urban cohort, Vigiles , Equites singulares and Germani Corporis Custodes , but that is still to be decided and that is why I am not working already on them.....

eadingas
01-15-2005, 11:04
The game doesn't end in 14 AD. It's when the time runs out, but it's not a victory. Think in game terms: the major victory condition for Rome is basically equal to your family leader being chosen Emperor.
If it were my decision, I'd ditch Praetorian Guards as well... you can't have Emperor's Bodyguards without an Emperor...

PROMETHEUS
01-15-2005, 11:47
Agreeable point...

frisian28ad
01-15-2005, 12:50
Actually, this time you are wrong. The Netherlands had been a Germanic area ever since the Germans migrated into the area of the Rhine frontier. Understandably, however, they were far more under the influence of the Celtic Belgae than other Germanic tribes, and benifited from that.

Their position would probably mean that the tribes were more Celtic in blood than more easternly tribes. However, they were no Bastarnae and were still recognizably Germanic.

No, if we have the mod include Germanic territory on the Rhine, there is nothing wrong with the Batavii.



~Wiz

Dank je voor de support, I thought I stood alone on this one.
You doesn't have to use the Batavians as bodyguard, use them as heavy auxiliary. The Batavians were a big part from the Roman auxilia, certainly the most loyal. There are even a few battles they really made a difference and distinct themselves, crossing a large water. And make them available to al the Roman factions, when one of them conquers Germania I. If you play it hard you won't get Germania I very soon in the game, so that could solve the timeframe issue.

And Khelvan, Psycho V I may have overreacted a bit, but I was getting frustrated with all those negative comments. I put a lot of work this unit.

greetings :bow:

PROMETHEUS
01-15-2005, 15:46
After rereading some of my fonts , I am more incline to accept a unit like this since even Caesar used some Gaulish or German bodyguards on horse....tough the name wasn't yet the ESA, still was a guard unit made of german or Gaulish troops even if not specifically Batavians...
But as Eadingas said the later ESA should be implemented only if we retain the Urban Cohort ,segmentata armour unit, Praetorian guards, Germani corporis custodes and so on

DemonArchangel
01-15-2005, 16:04
look, what i'm trying to say is
What if you don't conquer germanic areas?
You'll still need a bodyguard cavalry.

eadingas
01-15-2005, 16:32
Segmentata armour development is independent from there being an emperor or not, is it? So it can stay, if only appearing at a very, very late stage. It's the specifically _imperial_ units that are out of scope...
If we have heavy western germanic cavalry (whatever the name), it should be a regional unit recruitable by all. You think Carthaginians or Seleucids wouldn't want to recruit them if they'd reach Germany, if they were as good as you say? Then we could have different skins for different factions - lot of work for you, Prom (and others), you should be happy :) - so that if they're recruited by Rome, they have Roman armour, if by Gauls they have Celtic armour, etc.

Pereus
01-15-2005, 16:54
Hello there,
I really need to congratulate you guys on a superb effort to recreate RTW as close to history as possible. I think you should keep up the good work and deliver a magnificent MOD for us to play. However, your approach for authenticity is bound to create problems. The past can never be accurately reconstructed. It is always a matter of interpretation, politics, economy and the background of each scholar. In addition, I am a little bit concrned that because the scope of your effort is so big, it is bound to become an endless pit. My opinion is that you need to have a set of rules that will determine all aspects of your work. At the moment it seems that your guidelines are a little bit blurry. Finally, as I can imagine you are using modern maps for the game. How about recreating the world as the Romans knew it at the time? I hope I did not bore you with my remarks. In addition, I would like to become part of your team (if this is possible).
All the best
Pereus

- I think, therefore there are thoughts -
Gilles Deleuze

frisian28ad
01-15-2005, 17:19
Whoehoe :charge:

Only the thing is that I am not entirely sure if it would work when you would need to make to kinds of them, and the other factions also could recruit them. The Romans after Marius did not had very great cavalry right? So they almost only had auxilia, who filled up the ranks of the cavalry. So is it possible to give the Romans after Marius only foreign cavalry? 4 different auxilia from different areas, for example the lightcavalry after Marius would be Gauls, etc. till number 4 heavy elite the Batavians. Rome paid good money for its auxliary forces, so it is also possible they would come to Rome to volunteer in the Roman army right? About the generals bodyguard would it not be more realistic to let the units that are attached to a general or factionleader be staffmembers? What I mean would it not be possible to let some of the retinu a leader has earned appear on the battlefield, for example the mercenary captain, or decorated hero? A leader of an army never fougth a battle without its advisors, so it is a bit unrealistic if you see one general almost flawless commanding an army, with beside him only its bodyguard.

khelvan
01-15-2005, 20:20
Prometheus, Equites Singulares Augusti may not have existed, but the term Praetorians referring to a bodyguard was used long before imperial times, according to what I read. Augustus may have been the first to recruit a Praetorian Cohort as a separate unit from the bodyguard, but some of the patrician families had been calling their bodyguard Praetorians since the beginning of the republic. We can call the general's bodyguard unit "Praetorian" without any historical compromise, in my opinion.


Hello there,
I really need to congratulate you guys on a superb effort to recreate RTW as close to history as possible. I think you should keep up the good work and deliver a magnificent MOD for us to play. However, your approach for authenticity is bound to create problems. The past can never be accurately reconstructed. It is always a matter of interpretation, politics, economy and the background of each scholar. In addition, I am a little bit concrned that because the scope of your effort is so big, it is bound to become an endless pit. My opinion is that you need to have a set of rules that will determine all aspects of your work. At the moment it seems that your guidelines are a little bit blurry. Finally, as I can imagine you are using modern maps for the game. How about recreating the world as the Romans knew it at the time? I hope I did not bore you with my remarks. In addition, I would like to become part of your team (if this is possible).In the end, every decision must come down to an acceptance of existing sources and logical deductions based on what we don't truly know. This is not a conflict for us, it is something that academics have dealt with since the dawn of...well, academics.
~:)

Have no fear, I do my best to keep things moving in the right direction. We only use satellite imagery to determine topography, the other work is done based on period sources. Most of our provincial boundaries are being drawn up on tribal borders, within the limitations we have to work with.

Our membership has been somewhat open until recently, when we have had to restrict it more carefully due to a great influx of new people. If you wish to help, please send me a PM with how you think you can assist us.

Cheers,

-khel

eadingas
01-15-2005, 20:45
Praetorian guards (Praetoriani, ie. more than one cohort) was invented by Augustus. Praetorian cohors (one troop) was invented by Scipio, and this one is the proper name for general bodyguard. As general's bodyguard, it's ok. As separate elite unit, it's not.

PROMETHEUS
01-15-2005, 20:53
Not really correct....
The Praetorian Guard was formed by the emperor Augustus to help prevent assassins from reaching the emperor and murdering him as Brutus and his companions had murdered Julius Caesar. It was called by that name in imitation of the Praetoria Cohors, or select troop, which attended the person of the praetor or general of the Roman army. This cohort is said to have been first formed by Scipio Africanus out of the bravest troops, whom he exempted from all their duties except guarding his person.

Emperor Augustus made the praetorians a standing force after the battle of Actium in 31 BC. He divided them into nine cohorts (groups) of 500 soldiers each, just as with the regular legions. Augustus, in accordance with his general policy of avoiding the appearance of despotism, stationed only three of these cohorts in the capital, and dispersed the remainder in the adjacent towns of Italy. Before 2 BC each individual cohort was lead by a tribune of equestrian rank. Afterwards, Augustus created two posts for overall command of the guard, the Praetorian Prefects.

The primary role of the Praetorians was to act as a bodyguard to the emperor and serve as a police force in the city. However, they did take to the battlefield when the need arose. Members of the guard received much higher pay than other soldiers. The scorpian appears as a symbol on much of the Praetorian equipment, possibly due to the fact that the birthsign of emperor Tiberius was scorpio. In the city, they wore no armor and carried no shield. They wore a plain tunic and carried a sword. On the battlefield they were outfitted with the same equipment as the normal legions.....

eadingas
01-15-2005, 20:58
That's the same page I took my info from :)

PROMETHEUS
01-15-2005, 21:03
So they almost only had auxilia, who filled up the ranks of the cavalry. So is it possible to give the Romans after Marius only foreign cavalry? 4 different auxilia from different areas, for example the lightcavalry after Marius would be Gauls, etc. till number 4 heavy elite the Batavians.

I think is a good idea tough a small numer of equites still served in the army like 500 and in punic wars the cavalry was made of allied italian (Samnite) that was a good heavy cavalry as well after was replaced by foreign kinds ....Actually original equites weren't great riders but the romans learned to make use of foreign troops to complete the army where they didn't had the same skills like the cretan archers and samnite iberian gaul german illirian cavalry and so on....so actually their cavalry was quite good , just levied from countries that were good at this ....

frisian28ad
01-15-2005, 22:22
Well Prometheus, finaly I've got the idea we agree on something ~:) .Though the Roman army cavalry should be worked out better off course. I would choose the Marian reform as the point where you got the chance to recrute your non-Italian cavalry. You could say that for example the Numidians were earlier recruted than the Marian reform because they were allready used by Scipio, so the idea would not work. But fact is the Numidians are classic example of cavalry unit that should be available to all factions. They were off course also recruted by Carthage, so it would not work with the Marian reform idea.
Pre-Marian, use the equites as light cavalry and the only cavalry unit true Roman, as more specialized cavalry use for example Campanian cavalry or other cavalry extracted from the Italian tribes maybe even Gauls.
After-Marian use solely foreign cavalry units only available to the Romans. to find these use a timeframe with on the end the late 1st century Batavians as the elite heavy cavalry. On the begining late 2nd century two or three lighter types of foreign cavalry, for example a Celtic type. Well I hope this could give some structure, please comment.
I think the Romans should the be the only ones able to train certain foreign troops, not available to other factions because the Romans had really intergrated foreign cavalry units in there army.

Greetings...

frisian28ad
01-15-2005, 22:28
About the generals bodyguard would it not be more realistic to let the units that are attached to a general or factionleader be staffmembers? What I mean would it not be possible to let some of the retinu a leader has earned appear on the battlefield, for example the mercenary captain, or decorated hero? A leader of an army never fougth a battle without its advisors, so it is a bit unrealistic if you see one general almost flawless commanding an army, with beside him only its bodyguard.

What about it? or is it not good to implement? To let the leader of an army be acompanied by his retinu? Offcourse the bodyguard unit also would stay attached.

Greetings.....

DemonArchangel
01-15-2005, 23:27
GOD DAMNIT! LISTEN TO ME!

Look, you're still playing a GAME.

Although historical accuracy is certainly important, you have to remember this: There are Possibilities.

The Romans need a bodyguard cavalry. They don't need to conquer Germania.

eadingas
01-16-2005, 00:07
Yep. That's what I'm trying to say. The german cavalry should be available to all. We can't give Romans units from other regions if they don't conquer them. This is why we're implementing regional units.
Ancillaries on battlefield are impossible.

khelvan
01-16-2005, 00:12
Do not worry, we don't give bodyguard cavalry out to foreigners. Though some units will be able to be recruited when certain areas are conquered, the generals' bodyguards are faction specific.

Scipio was not the only one to call his bodyguard "Praetorians." This is because the name of the tent of a legate of the legion was praetorium. I never suggested we use the "Praetorian Guards" as an elite unit - this would be introduced with Augustus. However, I believe the term Equites Singulares predates Augustus, though of course Equites Singulares Augusti does not.

frisian28ad
01-16-2005, 00:46
GOD DAMNIT! LISTEN TO ME!

[B]Look, you're still playing a GAME.

Although historical accuracy is certainly important, you have to remember this: There are Possibilities.

The Romans need a bodyguard cavalry. They don't need to conquer Germania.

A real academic :book: response, uhm right................
What are you talking about, what I am trying to say (I cannot express myself just as good in English as you colonial).

The Batavians were such a Romanized unit that it would be a bit strange to let them be recruited by other factions. So let them become the cavalry unit of the Romans instead of the legionary or praetorian cavalry. They would appear late in the game anyway, and eventually you have to turn north rigth? For Germania I you could make a mercenary unit. What part do you not understand?


We can't give Romans units from other regions if they don't conquer them.

Almost the whole Roman cavalry was foreign, after Marian. The Romans conscripted gallic cavalry even before they conquered them. fact is the Roman army was not that specialized in cavalry, they knew that, so they used foreign cavalry, as prometheus earlier said.

khelvan
01-16-2005, 01:09
Demon, please tone down your language and attitude. It isn't appreciated, nor do I think it was warranted by the discussion.

Try to remember we are working with people from all over the world here. Please give everyone the benefit of the doubt.

eadingas
01-16-2005, 11:38
Almost the whole Roman cavalry was foreign, after Marian. The Romans conscripted gallic cavalry even before they conquered them. fact is the Roman army was not that specialized in cavalry, they knew that, so they used foreign cavalry, as prometheus earlier said.

Yes, but they only had access to it because they have expanded their zone of influence enough. If, in game, Roman player won't expand into Europe, but for example only to Africa and Asia, where and why would he get German troops? In that case, Roman Cavalry would be made of Numidian or Scythian horsemen, not German ones. Do you see?
We can still have the german cavalry ready and waiting in Germany for someone (or only for Rome) to come and pick them up, but not available for Rome anywhere they wish to go.
Hmm this gives me another idea, but I'm not telling yet...

PROMETHEUS
01-16-2005, 11:52
We can still have the german cavalry ready and waiting in Germany for someone (or only for Rome) to come and pick them up, but not available for Rome anywhere they wish to go.
I agree on this here , since the romans can as well levy italian samnite heavy cavalry , after they expanded further they made the samnite fully incorporated inthe roman nation and so levied more as infantry in the legion lines loosing their original attitudes , so romans everytime they expanded they could count on new units but i would say that if one of the ropman factions for examople has access to recruit numidian cavalry for example the scipii , then automatically all the others should be able too... remember for example that Caesar begun his war in Gaul with numidian horsemen ....

DemonArchangel
01-16-2005, 14:06
sorry bout' that outburst khelvan.

frisian28ad
01-16-2005, 14:07
If we have heavy western germanic cavalry (whatever the name), it should be a regional unit recruitable by all. You think Carthaginians or Seleucids wouldn't want to recruit them if they'd reach Germany, if they were as good as you say? Then we could have different skins for different factions - lot of work for you, Prom (and others), you should be happy :) - so that if they're recruited by Rome, they have Roman armour, if by Gauls they have Celtic armour, etc.

Well this should also be fine, I just threw with some ideas but if you it is the best idea to make them regional unit, well let them be a regional unit. I am allready glad they may appear in the mod. It also would be a cool thing if you have to kinds of them depending on the faction how recruites them.

frisian28ad
01-16-2005, 14:14
We can still have the german cavalry ready and waiting in Germany for someone (or only for Rome) to come and pick them up, but not available for Rome anywhere they wish to go.
Hmm this gives me another idea, but I'm not telling yet...

Damn my english is worse, to come back on what I said earlier, this might work better then the two skinned idea you had. Let them wait till the Romans go north, excellent idea. Then you don't have to make to kinds of them, you could also apply this idea on other factions with specific units. To be short a great and workable idea!

The Panda Centurion
01-21-2005, 05:56
The great advantage of the Romans lay in their infantry, which was arguably the best in the world at that time. However, the Romans relied on auxilia (provincial soldiers who were not Roman citizens) to provide the specialized forces. If an auxiliary fought loyally and well, he would be given a citizenship. It is a known fact that the Romans hired foreigners for use as cavalry (Julius Caesar hired Gauls to provide his cavalry, as the Celts were superb horsemen). During the early Republican period, the Romans had an established cavalry force, the equites. However, the title of equites became more and more symbolic as the empire expanded, since their were fewer equites to go around. This is why the Romans started recruiting auxilia from conquered provinces.

-Panda

frisian28ad
01-25-2005, 17:08
Well I got some fresh pictures of the Batavians

http://www.home.zonnet.nl/postbus/images/rom6.jpg

A Batavian rider

http://www.home.zonnet.nl/postbus/images/rom7.jpg

This mask (notice the distinctive wig) shows once again that the Batavians fought with there masks, and that the masks were not only used in sportevents. Yes this mask is a reconstruction from one dated back to the 1st century AD.
But this does not mean that the Batavians are out of range of the timeframe, they are mentioned by Caesar and Tacitus(remember this also would mean that any sources used from Tacitus are out of scope!). I propose this, as soon as the Romans conquer (just an example) Germania I, make the Batavians available to them! It is that simple!

One thing, is it possible to trigger certain famous revolts, not based on the date they started, but based on the years they started after a province was conquered.....

Well bust me with all you got, I am not finished yet and I have a lot more info that I can use, for now IMPLEMENT the Batavian cavalry!

Greetings..................

khelvan
01-25-2005, 20:23
While the mask itself looks neat, how exactly does this show that the Batavians fought with these masks on?

Roman cavalry had sporting, or parade, masks as well. This sort of mask would be practically impossible to fight in, reducing sight, hearing, and so on. No soldier in his right mind would wear one in battle.

DemonArchangel
01-25-2005, 21:40
Khelvan, a mask was found in Teutoberg Forest.
Definitely not a game.

frisian28ad
01-25-2005, 22:23
Well I am glad you ask. The Batavian veterans allways returned to there homelands with there full armour after the 25 year service. They sacrafised there armour in tempels devoted to there god Hercules, to thank him for all those years they could fight. There are many findings of these masks around Nijmegen, not only intact ones also damaged by weapons (no pics to back this up sorry :embarassed: ).
The masks were embedded in there barbaric fighting style, the gaesta wasn't real practical either right? The Batavii were a small tribe so they never could impresse by numbers, so they wore masks to look more fiercely. I earlier posted a pic of a pre-Roman mask, the one with the barbaric face and the hairknot (a hairknot is practical).
Barbaric fighting styles are primarely about impressing your enemy, secondly about practical things during combat (a bold statement I might regret ~:) )

frisian28ad
01-25-2005, 22:25
Khelvan, a mask was found in Teutoberg Forest.
Definitely not a game.

Indeed and a the Batavians were with the Romans in the Teutoburgerwald!!! And masks were found!! Thanks Demon did not thought the day would come that you agreed with me ~:)

cunctator
01-26-2005, 12:52
The roman army destroyed in teutoburg forest was on its way back to their wintercamps, so they carried all their property with them, including non combat equipment.
But otherwise, i`ve read a book by a german reenactor. He says that it is possible to fight with this masks. It is reducing sight only by max. 30% and hearing by 40%. Early medieval helmets are much more unpracticall than this roman helmets.

Back to the Batavian issue: After reading the whole thread, i still don`t see what distinguishes the batavian riders from other early imperial cavalry units. Such masks had been found on places all over the former roman empire, not only in Batavia. Other units or individual soldiers may have used them in combat as well.

frisian28ad
01-26-2005, 15:16
Well those masks were found in high amounts in a small area on the same place (Nijmegen). It is not because of the masks they were so special..... :dizzy2: . They were superbe fighters and the Romans were the first to recognize this. Still not convinced read my 2nd post once more, I am not going to repeat myself over and over again.

cunctator
01-26-2005, 18:04
Exuse me frisian28ad. I must admit that i was in a hurry and should had read your post more carefully.

Back to the topic:
You quote Tacitus Tacitus, Ann. 15.58 in your second post. In Ann. 15.58 tacitus is only refering to Germans as foreigners thrusted by the emperor.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/txt/ah/tacitus/TacitusAnnals15.html Do you have any other source that proofs that the early imperial mounted bodyguard completly consisted of Batavians ? I don`t want the Batavians keep out of the mod, i am just curious. In all books if read they were only called germanic Bodyguard.

Also you mentioned that it was highly unusual for auxiliary troops to be rewarded with roman cititzenship after 25 years of service. Again this interfers with the information that i have collected in the recent yeras.
After the auxilia had became a regular part of the professional roman army during the rule of augustus, all members of auxiliary troops had been rewarded with roman citizenship. This was one of the main reasons for free provincials to join the roman army.

SaFe
01-26-2005, 18:22
Indeed and a the Batavians were with the Romans in the Teutoburgerwald!!! And masks were found!! Thanks Demon did not thought the day would come that you agreed with me ~:)

Far as i'm aware of the batavii auxilia changed sides quite quickly in the Teutoburger Forest. ~;)
One thing - we don't know how the campaign develops - so why give the batavii unit only to the romans.
Say for example, the gauls manage to beat the romans back for a long while, why shouldn't they or even the germanic tribes themself not be able to enlist the famous batavii cavalry?

frisian28ad
01-26-2005, 20:55
I support your idea entirely, and it would be tribute to the Batavii that they really deserve. But is it a workable idea? The thing is (and we should all be aware for this in EB) that we cannot change history for every different faction. Many units would not be available or would be very different if another faction then the Romans would have dominated Europe, right? We could go on forever asking ourselves the what-if... question.
Anyway the Batavians would need two skins as proposed earlier. They had Roman army only small disinctive things pointed to there heritage. So if other factions want to recrute them, they need to be in there pre/Roman armour. Is this not a waste of work, then I suggest to make another Dutch orientated unit for the other factions, such as a Frisian warrior. But I am still investigating this possibillity.

http://home.hetnet.nl/~adevanderwal/oergebied.jpg

Early Frisian territory

On your remark that they would easily changed sides to the Germanic tribes, I have to dissapoint you ~:) . The Batavians were annoyingly loyal to the Romans, and copied them in every aspect. And the Romans admired the Batavians for this, there are no records of Batavians defecting to the ennemies of the Romans. But they did revolted once but failed. If it did not failed they the Romans would suffered a major blow on there northern front. And the Batavians would have established there own faction under there king Civilis. A small but very powerfull faction, combining Roman organsation with native fighting skills.
They revolted on a very smart chosen moment, while there was Roman power struggle, splitting the Romans in two sides. The Batavian Revolt caused the disbanding of four legions: I Germanica, IIII Macedonica (defected to Civilis), XV Primigenia (defected to Civilis), XVI Gallica (defected to Civilis). The legions defected offcourse because off the high numbers of the elite Batavian auxllia.

This (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batavian_rebellion) tells the story of the Batavian Revolt. Very impressing and one good reason ~;) to make the timeframe bigger!

Greetings........ :bow:

SaFe
01-26-2005, 23:34
I support your idea entirely, and it would be tribute to the Batavii that they really deserve. But is it a workable idea? The thing is (and we should all be aware for this in EB) that we cannot change history for every different faction. Many units would not be available or would be very different if another faction then the Romans would have dominated Europe, right? We could go on forever asking ourselves the what-if... question.
Anyway the Batavians would need two skins as proposed earlier. They had Roman army only small disinctive things pointed to there heritage. So if other factions want to recrute them, they need to be in there pre/Roman armour. Is this not a waste of work, then I suggest to make another Dutch orientated unit for the other factions, such as a Frisian warrior. But I am still investigating this possibillity.

http://home.hetnet.nl/~adevanderwal/oergebied.jpg

Early Frisian territory

On your remark that they would easily changed sides to the Germanic tribes, I have to dissapoint you ~:) . The Batavians were annoyingly loyal to the Romans, and copied them in every aspect. And the Romans admired the Batavians for this, there are no records of Batavians defecting to the ennemies of the Romans. But they did revolted once but failed. If it did not failed they the Romans would suffered a major blow on there northern front. And the Batavians would have established there own faction under there king Civilis. A small but very powerfull faction, combining Roman organsation with native fighting skills.
They revolted on a very smart chosen moment, while there was Roman power struggle, splitting the Romans in two sides. The Batavian Revolt caused the disbanding of four legions: I Germanica, IIII Macedonica (defected to Civilis), XV Primigenia (defected to Civilis), XVI Gallica (defected to Civilis). The legions defected offcourse because off the high numbers of the elite Batavian auxllia.

This (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batavian_rebellion) tells the story of the Batavian Revolt. Very impressing and one good reason ~;) to make the timeframe bigger!

Greetings........ :bow:


Well - we have some chaucii and chattii units - near as possible to the frisians.
And:
Let's make them a special mercenary unit available in those gaulish/germanic regions. Thoughts?
Greetings
SaFe

frisian28ad
01-26-2005, 23:50
Well - we have some chaucii and chattii units - near as possible to the frisians.
And:
Let's make them a special mercenary unit available in those gaulish/germanic regions. Thoughts?
Greetings
SaFe

Fine by me not totaly my area of expertise, but I am more then willing to help you find a nice mercenary unit from this area for the other factions. First we should find out which one from the tribes in this area has special warrior interesting enough to implement.....

http://home.hetnet.nl/~adevanderwal/krtptoly.jpg

A map of the area according to Ptholomey

Greetings...