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Satake
07-03-2001, 13:53
Realy... hahahahaha.. i can't stop laughing...

Quite funny there Magyar. I see you have collected "lapdogs" again , as usual. Throw out the clans with any suggestions and critizism on your rules.. way to go! The best thing u could have done was select 6 clans in order of signup.. this is waaay too obvious. I hope you are having fun with the clans that don't oppose you (no offense meant - please prove me wrong) . Way to go this way u are sure to get what you want , your rules. Kenchikuka is pulling out , don't keep an open spot for us. Have fun.

I am sorry to bring this post out here but there is no place i could leave it ony our personal forum , so there you go.

Oh , oh .. almost forgot to add this , this pretty much sums it up - hillarious!
"we decided to start with just 6 clans to ensure we can keep control of how the improved rules work out"

EuroSan
07-03-2001, 13:59
Same here.........take the European Crusader of that list of maybe get added later http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif

As we where the clan that signed up first before and are not included now.....shows that our ide´s and input dont goes with Magys aprovel/taughts........

For the rest that are in it...have fun!!!
We will not join it "later".....


Ps. I tryed to post this at the Campaign Forum, but cant so i had to do it here, Sorry about that.ds.
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May the honour be with you all..........EuroSan the reborned spirit of LinkSan

[This message has been edited by EuroSan (edited 07-03-2001).]

Shadelord
07-03-2001, 19:16
well from what i had seen of your guy's post over there this is what you all did there. you did not offer advice you said well fine if thats how it will be then i don't want to be in it. That kind of reply how can anyone work with you. Ahhh forget it. All i hear people do is cry over every thing

Satake
07-03-2001, 19:59
Maybe u have not read well. I have spent hours on that board suggesting improvements and new rules to make the campaign more smooth and more realistic. Never once have i threatened to leave if a rule was not changed.

Shadelord that is a nice attempt to bring dishonor - I challenge you to come forward with some examples of us showing the behavior u say we showed. If u wanted to be heard than u should have been spoken when it mattered and not on such a tone.

Satake
07-03-2001, 20:02
Added note : the only ones i ever saw threatening to leave if a thing wasn't changed are the Danes.

Kocmoc
07-03-2001, 21:55
its realy u satake?

if u have a prob with the use of the rules in last try, u mean me too!

i was total agreed with this!
And, plz remember, we didnt anything against the rules!

Maybe u are only a bad loser, if i remember well...ur clan was attacked by near all provinces around http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif

hmmmmmmm, i think, u are a memebr of the shogun honour society, u use maybe better words and speak a bit nicer......

ur fisrt post wasnt honourable...


koc

Satake
07-03-2001, 22:45
I don't see what being in the honor society has to do with this.

Koc I have no trouble with the rules in the old try - remember , we weren't the ones that bailed , magy did! surprising too that it is magy who has now restarted the campaign and left out all the clans that had criticism on his rules , or suggested improvements. He has taken the clans that haven't added nor detracted from his set of rule and has start over with them , it doesn't take a genius to figure out why. And don't say me this is not so.. If he would have asked the clans to join this round by order of "subscription" than u would not hear me now. It's the fact that IMO he is playing this to fit his needs , i am sorry but that is the magy i knew all along , he hasn't changed. He should not have participated in this clan tourney.. A host always has prejudice. I liked the idea of a clan campaign , i salute Magy for the great idea , yet it is sad to see it go down into what he is letting it become. Feel free to flame me Lord , Koc , Magy , I don't care , i won't change my mind - this stinks.

EuroSan
07-03-2001, 23:16
Please dont drag this to be a FLAME thing here.......
Kocmoc dont get in to that thing please.....Magy even told us(San your right) in the Forum that i was right on the thing that happend...okey let that be left out........

Lets droop this arquments and you all have fun with the campaign.....i was just suprised that European Crusaders was left out of the campaign seens we was the first Clan to enter it........and i would post this at the Campaign forum if i could...but i cant.

And Shadelord....where have i ever said i dont want to play the campaign if this or this rule is here or there???????
I aproved to all rules that was made..

And also Honour Society has nothing to do with this here....

-EuroSan

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May the honour be with you all..........EuroSan the reborned spirit of LinkSan

[This message has been edited by EuroSan (edited 07-03-2001).]

DarthGuru
07-03-2001, 23:39
Hello all,

I see some controversy has stirred over us leaving the campaign, which I was sure was gonna happen. And I see someone has refered to us as bad losers which is just a sad push for an insult(in which case, Satake I was telling you in the long quote, but I said wouldn't matter in the long run), but in truth it has nothing to do with that. Of those who know me, they know that I try not one to stick sides or pre-judge. In every case I always try to be fair and look at it from both sides, in my clans shoes or in someone elses.

I know intentionally Magy didn't want to piss off any clans, and in doing so, put us as the first to be considered to entry. But many things fell short, and all the signs have been made abundantly clear. He even said when he closed the campaign for the first time, that the friends of the campaign will be included if it ever started again. (I was at first sadden by this news that the campaign was closing, but I see he had other intentions in it) Also in the quote satake stated, it is well shown his stance again. "we decided to start with just 6 clans to ensure we can keep control of how the improved rules work out" .

I had said earlier in the one of the threads at the campaign that compromise will be the key to longevity. Although I did see some effort in compomise, and I thought the campaign was moving toward a better future. There was controversy over some topics, we all talked it over, decided on a new set of rules, and then BAM the campaign was closed. I'm not sure if this was Magy's intent but everyone with a thought of change was pushed into the second group, where they would not even have any say in the testing of the rules. In other words, we are back to where we started, my way or the highway...

ShadLord: I can't even believe you would say such a thing, when you don't even know half the circumstances. All he looks at is the controversy over the one post, and he is ready to judge anyone. I checked the campaign site fairly often, and although my voice was not heard as much; I had seen Satake post time and time again, with constructive criticism. The only reason he was posting at the forum, was to try to make the campaign better. Most of you should know Satake well enough that he is not one to pick fights without a good reason. In any case at least he gave his opinion, would you rather have a group of people with no thought, or maybe theyre just to scared to say it to Magy. What's the point of having an suggestions forum if no one is gonna give any?

Either way the politics in this will of course be very messy. I am not here to piss anyone off, just to tell our side and leave the campaign with little controversy as possible. In any case the point came across very strong, and it seemed as if we were only left with one option. In a final print all we can say is we know where we are not wanted. One thing worse then being a sore loser is being a bug that won't go away, so i guess we took our choice with the BAD LOSER...

DarthGuru
07-03-2001, 23:40
Yes the main reason that pushed us to leave was that the Euros was left out. When they were actually the first to sign up!!

Mossy
07-03-2001, 23:53
Well said Darth.

I wouldn't have been able to say that without swearing a lot http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

07-04-2001, 01:15
Ok. This will be hot as well all know.

I suggested to Magyar to include the 6 best clans, but he insisted on the 'friends' of the campaign to get in. I don't understand really well this statement.

But NoFear is in the list and for me fine. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif

Tera

P.S.
Guys please make a MATURE discussion. Don't be rude ok. Or I will have to take actions on the post.

Tera
Diamyo Clan No Fear

------------------
Honour to Clan No Fear.

Visit my resource centre here! (http://terazawa.totalwar.org)
Evil is within us...
http://terazawa.totalwar.org/evil.jpg

07-04-2001, 02:09
Magyar ok. The Euros and Kenchi have to be included as a main clan and for all their support. After all they could only do constructive pressure.

Maybe you should accept that your decisions are not always right - they can't be- you are not perfect.

Tera

------------------
Honour to Clan No Fear.

Visit my resource centre here! (http://terazawa.totalwar.org)
Evil is within us...
http://terazawa.totalwar.org/evil.jpg

ElmarkOFear
07-04-2001, 02:19
If you touch my post Tera, I will have to spank you!! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif Oh wait, you LIKE that. Ok then, I will have to threaten to spank you and then NOT do it! :P
I believe this post has not decended into flames, as of yet, and since I know most of the posting players, I will allow it to remain as long as things stay civil. One question I have is: Who IS in the campaign? Where is it listed, so I can let clan Fearful Ways know to prepare or not?

[This message has been edited by ElmarkOFear (edited 07-03-2001).]

MagyarKhans Cham
07-04-2001, 05:09
And again what a sadness... even my pony makes a hopeless impression seeing this. you keep hurting my Khan Satake. Here is his respond.

-------------------------------------------
"The campaign was quitted on the reason that it was based on the wrong foundation and the the posts from Euro and Kenchi where a continuous suspicion was left, adressed to the gamemaster.

Ofcourse it is suspicious that a gamemaster is also a leader of a participating clan. What do u expect, that he is working for many many hours and is just able to watch at it? that would be stupid.

We all agreed that the campaign was in a phase of testing, even after the testphase it should be improved.

----------------------------------------
MY POINT OF VIEW ON THE RULE PROBLEM
----------------------------------------
Eurosan stated "Magy even told us(San your right) in the Forum that i was right on the thing that happend"

SAN u know that this is partly true. Yes we talked about the mess that could occur when we just let clans allow to hand over provinces with a penalty. And we were thinking of a penalty by then. (remind the discussion with annett). At that time we didnt have a penalty so after the discussion i added a timedelay penalty of 7 days. But forgot that a timedelay for an attack was just 3 days (or 10 at most). U had enough time, the testphase to check that rule and u hadnt replied on it to improve it.

Then the campaign starts, and Euro and kenchi (and lrossa) were spending the greencards as hell, declaring war on neighbours and in doing so reducing their defence. All other clans were waiting and each created a plan on their own. Nofear attacked lrossa, elite was planning attacks, fear too and we decided to get a province in the centre of the map as fast as possible.

We asked thedanes to "lend" us a beachhead so we could attack futher into Japan. Aint that diplomacy? And lending was not in the rules, so we dummyattacked it and would suffer a 3 day penalty.

Than it started..... we had a clanleader forum and what i saw was a post from SAN with CAPITAL characters in the public forum. why the hell was that necessarry? and a mirror like this post, immediatly a "lapdog" reply from satake. this one within 10 minutes http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
------------------------------------------

why couldnt san post in the clansection, or emailed me, or whatever. but approached the new problem in a mature manner. then when i replied to san that he had the time to check the rules when i changed it after we discussed it, san kept posting his post but not replying my point.

We even replied to give the province back and head on to Tenki...

------------------------------------------
Then i saw posts from dartguru about bending the rules and post from others about a setup this was, insuniations and stuff, all from 2 clans. Where the others were willingly to play on every condition.

For me that was to much. I was sure i was wrong about letting u both in from the start. The campaign has potential but was fragile since it was not properly tested. The testphase was not used by the clans as it would have, we all included.

After the dissapointment i kept believing in the campaign, and that 10 clans were too much to start with. In this i was supported by others. So it should had a fair change.

Gazoz is laywer by profession and kindly offered me (free of charge) to make the rules as foolproof as possible, where also the rule-change-vote procedure should be improved. We both decided to have just 6 clans. And ofcourse it crossed my mind to let euro in. But what did u think when we let euro in and kenchi out?

And to relieve myself i decided to take the clans first who approached me online and by email about a possible restart nofeartera lrossaluka shadelord elmo and annett/zandy did. i talked to them many times. For this and the intention they showed to make the campaign work i decided to let them in.

Perhaps not all clans showned activity in discusion on the rules(forum), but some of them emailed me about many aspects in teh beginning.
------------------------------------------

Perhaps all wrong but my head hurts when i think about u both handle the things. Perhaps you can make your own campaign. i allow u to use my idea as u please. but please give this one we start now (and the participating clans) a fair change to show its worth without flaming here and calling the clans "lapdogs".

We will never see your real strength in conquering land, that is a shame. And even now i am willingly to let you in when we start with Korea. I think u decided for all of your clanmembers but i know some will regret this. you can tell them that we allow them to play in the campaign when they sign up with a dummyclan "CrusadingKen"

For me it looks like your life depends on the progress of your clan in the campaign.

May the "honour" be with u both.

Your sincerly

Magyar Khan
-------------------------------
PS and if a involved gamemaster stands up to coordinate all work and is willingly to work alongside gazoz than i resign as gamemaster and will be just a webmonkey.

any volunteers?

Magyar Khan
07-04-2001, 05:11
still we need enemies to beat up http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

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http://home-4.worldonline.nl/%7Et543201/web-mongol/mongol-images/mongolsmiley.gif Quote Although the enemy moves fast, a mongol arrow will kill him at last[/QUOTE]

Maltz
07-04-2001, 05:28
just my personal opinion, not subject to any particular clan or person (I don't even play MP http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif)

I think the MP campaign rules gotta be as simple as possible - and once it got passed nobody will change it unless there is a big bug causing unfairness.

This means that we will have to sacrifice reality for playability - yet it will still be fun to do teamworks under the rules http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

EuroSan
07-04-2001, 05:46
Talk about bending the words....
Magy i have never wanting to hurt you campaign at all...

But your missing my point...it was= That i gave you an example what could happend in the campaign with Allied Clans, that they could kill the alliance and take a map from there "Allied" and then straight away go back to Alliance and keep doing like that.............AND you said -no that will never be allowed ......you said that!!!(not me)

And that was what happend at Kawachi....
That was my only point.....you took my nightmare example and used it your self....dont blame me for trying to destroy your campaign......i like your ide of the campaign, but you have to be open to critiscm..without that nothing will get further and improve!!

It sadens me that you really think that anyone was out to hurt your campaign.

Like i said before on this post ..have fun!!



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May the honour be with you all..........EuroSan the reborned spirit of LinkSan

Magyar Khan
07-04-2001, 08:19
san let me bend my words...

Yes i said that they would never allowed to do that. And for that I did add a timedelay (of 7 days) to catch your nightmare scenario of clans hassling around with provinces and u had the time to see how i changed it and give comments on it. it was ruleset in progress and most were aware of it.

But can u also reply on my other part of the post. why did u feel the need to react like u did in that post with capital characters in public forum with a stance of suspicion against me? why was that? We didnt even real started and the wolves first strategic move made you go CAPITAL...

And for me the nice reaction of kenchiSatake on the first thread in this topic, calling clans my lapdogs doesnt prove to me that they are supporting the campaign and its clans, and your post started brotherly with "Same here..."

Dont forget that most clanleaders aint stupid and can think for themselves. Do u ever think that i would be that fool to bend a or every rule to let the wolves win. the wolves had a fair change to win without a rule change made in our favour. and what would it show then? it would show even more if we bend the rules AGAINST ourselves.

As u say we will have fun, with or without the euros. The clans who participate do that because they like to do challenging battles.

Create your own campaign and you will notice what kind of participants you need. It aint simple to keep all noses in the same directions. In every aspect, activity online, involvement, able to go for a compromis abd so on. Perhaps CA was right in delaying the campaign part of the game. It is less simple than you think.

DarthGuru
07-04-2001, 08:20
Hello all once again,
I don't have much to say other then the fact that, do you really think a contest or game can be fair if the host participates in it? This way the host will know all the rules in and out (since he created it), and of course will be the first to find the loopholes (which you did, this is what I meant by saying you bent the rules at the campaign forums, although none were really broken. Of course your not gonna bend the rules out in the open, you are the host!!!!) And how much of an example is it, if you do it on the first turn as well. As a host you will be setting the main example for the campaign whether you like it or not.
Anyways I really was looking forward to playing in this, at the beginning, and when it started to go down hill, we started to make suggestions (good and bad, all criticism will not be a good one) and started to compromise. At this point I seriously thought the campaign had made a turn for the better, since most compromises were met through both sides, and the campaign was about to continue. Closing the campaign was the last thing i expected, but I guess fits the bill if you don't want to deal with it. Anyways Gamemaster is the more then a correct title to put to the host, since you are the host and will be the masters of the campaign.
Anyways this thread comes from my thoughts at the beginning of the campaign. I had a feeling problems like this would arise, which it would be impossible not to, since you are the host and participating. I knew it would be taken personally, but how did you think it felt to us when you said youll only include the friends of the campaign(meaning friends of you). You couldn't have made it more blunt.... You even emailed the new participating clans without even asking them, in otherwords, you knew who you wanted to leave out... "But what did u think when we let euro in and kenchi out?" This makes no sense at all, I really thought Euro shoulda been in it no matter what since they were the first to sign up. Like I said we know where we are not wanted.


PS "For me it looks like your life depends on the progress of your clan in the campaign."

this coming from you is funny.. :P

Magyar Khan
07-04-2001, 08:31
san perjhaps i overlooked it in teh email i sent u (and the other clans). This are the scentences i wrote...

"Because clans are left out and many clans are waiting to join we will add new territory in steps. Depending on activity online and in the forum we will add new clans, to participate within weeks in Korea and china/mongolia.The first clans on this "to add list are" Kenchi Tenki Elite Euro and TheRage..."

and this is what u wrote...

"Same here.........take the European Crusader of that list of maybe get added later"

it wasnt MAYBE san, i am making maps already. but with some help of some honourable clans we dont need them anymore.

MagyarKhans Cham
07-04-2001, 08:48
Hello honourable Darthguru

It is good to see how you support your clanmember, but as the clanleader an apology towards all clans would be my humble advice. Especially when i found out what lapdogs mean.

True, leaving euros out from the restart wasnt perhaps the most wise decision. But every decision on leaving clans out to get more control over the learning process would cause a discussion.
I was every day online, even like today and it seems Kenchi (with exception of 2 members today) and Euro are vanquished from online play. The campaign needs active clans so for that it seemed all justified.

All posts here arent different from what you and your clan showed at the campaigns forum. There is hardly a sign of any true help besides chasing your own needs and making statements. Create a campaign yourself and the wolves join as true enemies and accept all rules. I can ask my Khan if he is willingly to give you 1 province back for every 2 conquered provinces. He can be nice u know.

ElmarkOFear
07-04-2001, 11:18
Gentlemen, Thank you for the toning down of your discussions and the civil manner which all have portrayed since the first few posts. It does not bode well for the clan community when people interested in the new game view arguments such as these between the top clans/players. Unfortunately, for those outside of the initial campaign, some of these disucssions may seem trivial. Knowing how much time and practice most of you put into the campaign and the discussions on rule changes, I can see how tempers would be high. For these reasons, once all of you feel the discussion has ended, I would like your permission to delete this post, so that it may not reflect badly on any of the people who have posted here. I normally would not make the offer, but all of you are known to me as friends and I want to allow all parties a fresh start. Once again, thank you all, you have stated your opinions in a dignified manner and you have my utmost respect. Elmarkofear

Magyar Khan
07-04-2001, 13:53
Deleting would be wisest. Although the discussion leaves open and i am sure it will be opened on an other place in the future about different topics but with the same attitudes.

It the eyes of some it doesnt matter what i do, i do it wrong. Small example that shows it: I appointed Gazoz gamemaster after he left elite and the campaign and what words did i encounter in the forum? "Gazoz left Eliteforce and immediatly became gamemaster, that is suspicious." For this and what i see here I think my decision to leave some out from the fragile start wasnt that bad as i thought lately after all.

San? dont keep avoiding my questions, can u answer my questions why u ever start posting about that fixing thing in the way u did?
Like the discussion with spoon about calling me a cheat it would be nice if u ever try to see things from a different angle instead of taking side without hearing the opposite first. An honourable daimyo should do that i guess.

[This message has been edited by Magyar Khan (edited 07-04-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Magyar Khan (edited 07-04-2001).]

Satake
07-04-2001, 13:54
Right I just want to make some points clear.

"All posts here arent different from what you and your clan showed at the campaigns forum. There is hardly a sign of any true help besides chasing your own needs and making statements"
Puh-lease! Smart of you to have removed all the older posts so no-one can check it out and see for themselves that this is not the case. The only real problem I had was with Kawachi - not the fact that u got it , but the way how. It was a swap and u tried covering it up as an attack to speed up the ability to attack from there. ANY improvements I have suggested on the forums i have given detailed explanation for as to why I thought that was best.

As to our clan owning an apology.. I speak for myself on this matter Magyar , not for my clan and you know it. I can take my own responsability. Right now I don't feel i need to make an apology. I will folow developments , maybe in time i need to make an apology to the clans.. Don't feel like i owe you one after what you have done and now said.

I am no diplomat some may consider me harsh in my words , it is the way i am. I do not play a role and therefore i often clash with people who do.. I let my feelings guide me that is the way i am , I do not keep things bottled up but will come out and say them , regardless of what person is involved. Once again i apologize for bringing this post out here , there was no other place i could think of seeing i could not post over at Magy's.

Magyar Khan
07-04-2001, 14:08
I wasnt smart in removing "all the older posts". from that big dissapointed i removed ALL post and created all NEW.

Kawachi wasnt a swap, we just got the province for a temporary moment to get a beachhead. After suffering the time-delay we would have give it back.

And perhaps you may be interested how the rules are now at www.campaign.club.tip.nl (http://www.campaign.club.tip.nl) u may be suprised how the stress u caused on me change it for the better.

Perhaps u had the best intentions with the campaign, if so then this question counts for you too? Why did you support Sans mail about the fixing for Kawachi without asking me before why and how we did it. Instead of nailing me in public?

Satake
07-04-2001, 14:30
The stress i caused you? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

about the fixing with Kawachi - it was obviously fixed , just by reading the Kawachi thread u knew something fishy happened. I did not use any arguments that i could back up with hard facts from the posts. Yes , San had talked with me about this , but I have posted my own view on it , basing it on what i had read myself.

I did indeed have the best intentions with the game. As I posted before , I think it is one of the greatest ideas. It has been attempted before and failed - i hope you will succeed. However I have lost any interest in being part of it.. I wish you and all the other participants the best of luck , and will be the first to congratulate , IF you prove me wrong.

EuroSan
07-04-2001, 14:36
Sorry i had to sleep, so i didnt see the last posts http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

Okey magy
"why did u feel the need to react like u did in that post with capital characters in public forum "

Why i posted with big caps in that Post Topic....Well I got Pissed off when i saw what had happend seens i was told that wasnt to be Allowed......it just showed my reaction..i got angry!!

Answere to this
"it wasnt MAYBE san, i am making maps already. but with some help of some honourable clans we dont need them anymore."

I fellt it was a maybe seens we was the first to enter and also to what Darth is saying......"The Camapign will open with the friends of the Campaign, for 6 clans as start!!"

Dragging up old stuff again that both you and me should let them(Lord and Kocmoc) handle, what has this to do with this thing here????

Magy its JULY its summer time most guys are busy with that time of the year so why you have to post like this
"I was every day online, even like today and it seems Kenchi (with exception of 2 members today) and Euro are vanquished from online play. The campaign needs active clans so for that it seemed all justified"
...(some feel its a good time to be abit on Holiday from Shogun)

Org...Take Elmarkos word ..do feel free to delete this thread if you like, but am allways standing for my words...so it doesn matter if you do or not..also the CAPS thing..i stand for it..i got angry(wich i dont get much)


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May the honour be with you all..........EuroSan the reborned spirit of LinkSan

[This message has been edited by EuroSan (edited 07-04-2001).]

Magyar Khan
07-04-2001, 15:34
Was it necessary to be angry? Didnt i add a timepenalty for it after we talked about it. And didnt we agree to develope the ruleset by learning on the job?

And with koc and lord, as i utterly stated at your own clan forum. I am a member in that discussion too. I have multiple id's and for some it were the same battles where some i played in as well.

and then we have spoon calling me a cheat. When a wolf call u a cheat i will ask u what happend instead of defending him without taking notice of both sides. Paolai was willingly to do that, and he did helped me changing my mind how to handle that situation.

I hope it will stop now.

Elmarko
i want to ask u not to delete the thread but u may close it if u like. I will ask my Orloks to take notice of the content within a week, ater that you can delete it if u like. but....

i dont think it reflects bad on new members, for me it shows we are involved and dont avoid discussions.

CaPeFeAr
07-04-2001, 17:12
http://home.ec.rr.com/fearfulways/flag/img0.gif

lol...friends of the caimpaign....well ive been avoiding this thread like the plague but here are my 2 cents.
... first off...we have almost 600 posts by members of fear, in our forum, concerning the campaign. there is not 1 single rule that we agree with magy about. not 1. but we have decided to form a clan opinion in order for me to more acuratly represent my members. see...maby your clans dont work that way but i respect what every one of my members think and incorperate their combined opinions in my words. and we all think a little different. so we arent friends of the caimpain in the sense that we will just sit idily by and not attempt to change some of the things that we as a clan think need changin.
.....we are online every day...we post every day...we allowed all 18 members to play...it will not take us a week to play 1 battle....lol euro offerd us a 7am and 8am saturday morning battle four days after we posted......some compramise..which brings me to my second point...nobody will be 100% happy about the new format...but magy felt that these 6 clans would put forth the most effort in trying to make it better...1 lone member posting his opinions doesnt mean much. u need 500+ from different clan members to draw upon..at the end...we moved away from posting in the campaign forum due to all the flamming going on and instead relayed info through email. i believe if the statements made in the forums here and at the campain site reflected a clan view instead of the personal opinions of daimyos there would have been/would be a whole lot more compamise and a lot less flamming...hopefully the restart will go much smoother since the rules are now fixed.

http://home.ec.rr.com/fearfulways/hurricane/img0.gif

[This message has been edited by CaPeFeAr (edited 07-04-2001).]

07-04-2001, 19:34
After a night of thought I have formulated my personal opinion and I think that both parties (MagyarKhan and Kenchi-Euros) are in wrong but also have their rights. First of all I stay neutral.

I don't think that Magyar did make the campaign for the wolves and his friends to have the better possibilities of winning and the extreme suspicion that Euros and Kenchis exerted may have upset Magyar in a way that he even felt that a cancellation of the campaign was necessary. On the other hand I have to say that the actual moral point of leaving out two clans who many times made constructive critisizm and always gave a good challenge is not a rightful thing. And in my opinion they should be in from the beginning, as the Korea 'promise' doesn't convince many minds. For me, the campaign map that we before was perfectly fine and this new one maybe even complicate things more, so following Magyar's own point, better keep things simple. And as the test passed I think that all clans have learnt all the rules and are ready to unleash their katanas.

Solution? Magyar would resign as totalwargames master and leave the work to a group of fully trustworthy men. And then we would treat Magyar and the wolves as they deserve if something fishy like Kawachi would happen. The suspicion of some people would stop and the campaign would run smoothly. :-)

Now the paragraph above was for Magyar. Now as for Kenchis and Euros:

First of all at least for NoFear we are not the lapdogs of ANYONE and if I have to say something I say it without hesitation. And Satake your definition of the clans participating was not very nice, as if you have something superior to anyone in any way. And I am sure that the clan participating will not lick any asses!

In some cases your suspect in Magy's decisions may have been correct in the previous campaign but you all should consider that Magyar is not a robot without feelings. He maybe a boast-head but for the work he done for this campaign I think he is worthy some respect. If he had to leave you out, there has to be a reason!

But as I posted before, your criticism has always been constructive and your participation in the campaign is more than a rightful thing. Magyar has to accept the criticism he receives without any prejudice on the clan making them.

Solution? Same as the last solution.

Plan? Let Kenchis and Euros in (and to an extent even the 2 other clans who were left) from the begginng, or from Korea/China or from Japanese mainland and let the two parties meet sometime and discuss about their problems.

P.S.

This topic will not be deleted of course! There is nothing to delete here at least for now. The discussion is respectful and mature. If you want to do a private discussion than don't post here.

------------------
Honour to Clan No Fear.

Visit my resource centre here! (http://terazawa.totalwar.org)
Evil is within us...
http://terazawa.totalwar.org/evil.jpg

[This message has been edited by Terazawa Tokugawa (edited 07-04-2001).]

ElmarkOFear
07-04-2001, 20:21
Can i STILL spank you though Tera? bwahahaha OK, since everyone is comfortable with keeping this thread open, I will not delete the post until specifically asked. I sincerly wish that things will be worked out to the satisfaction of all.

Magyar Khan
07-04-2001, 20:44
Dear tera,

yes i was dissapointed after viewing many posts with uncompromisable aspects. We almost lost thedanes over the unitpicking and thefears about the musketgeneral. At least we could show them both that the rules are not to limit a clan but to improve the challenge.

Most of satakes replies in the ruleforum were constructive. others were of a different approach where i did remember 1 or some of his posts ending like "THIS AINT GONNA WORK".
It is my profession to look for solutions and not ponder on problems. I asked many times for full-worked out rulesset suggestions and Gazoz was the one who responded in the most constructive manner.
I was glad with one of Satakes posts at teh cammpaignforum where he stated he was a realism freak and offered to be in the "rule-researching&improvement" group. But a liitle later in another topic, Gazoz presence was mentioned as suspicious. And that was the final switch in my head.

I have no problems with letting them in, but i think it aint a good thing if we did it, before we have created independent gamemaster(s). And I wont wait before we have un independent one. Dont ever think that it is my hobby to be the gamemaster of the campaign.
We are waiting a year for a campaign and i got the strong feeling that the one offered by the developers is nice but not suited to have fullscale wars.

I asked erado a month ago and he is too busy (also for all of us) and most others are busy or participating. For me Gazoz is a very good person but i dont think he likes to take all responsibilities for it and will u all recognize him as an independent gamemaster. But we can ask him if he wants to pull the thing by himself for now.
Directing all clans noses is stress, i can tell u that. I asked for any volunteers to step forward to control the campaign forums.

Gazoz convinced me to change teh map we had. For me that first map was good. Now we have changed the map of Japan i think it is even better. clans pick 2 areas of 5 provinces, 10 provinces in total. 6*5*2 = 60. and as u can see at the site, follow the link at the law and order section, it is equal. each clan will get 1 mine large port castle and temple. So that will be fair too.

Believe me tera, this way of picking areas is better than the old map. Less simple ofcourse but will be more challenging. Gazoz even convinced me and Annett that TheDanes should not automattically have their home map province Yamato. Although i still hope we let the ladies pick first.

If we let other clans in from saturday than it should be on the same time or after some weeks when teh starting clans have been known to teh rules.

My map of Korea is almost ready, just like the Hokkaido map. And I am sure it can be finished for saturday. I will email the clans again with a new statement that they still can join from saturday. And perhaps some allow to pick the wolves areas in Korea to invade Japan... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/redface.gif)

Go look at the rules and the procedure to change one, delete or add one. Feedback now is still thankfull accepted.

I will promise everyone to finish enough territory to give all clans a place. I will talk to Gazoz tonight about it. Tera, perhaps can u be online too to convince him, he can be stubborn http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/redface.gif) (in the positive sense of teh word)

HoWLLLWllll

Satake
07-04-2001, 21:40
Ok...

Cape... Let me explain how i handled posting on the campaign. I discussed alot of ideas with our more active clansmen (e.g. kagetora , darth) and they agreed with my points of view. Also , I had full authority from Darth to post my views.. i would have posted under the Satake name , but the deal was to post under the clan names. Hat off to you for formulating the opinions of many in your posts.

Tera.. I do not feel superior to anyone out there in the campaign. What bugged me (and still bugs me) is that so many are afraid to stand up to Magyar , to cross swords with him or tell him if they don't agree. Several times i had to put the word out , it wasn't till than that other clans started agreeing. I understand my term lapdogs was a bit harsh and i apologize for that , and as i said , plz prove me wrong on the point i just made http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif And you are right , Magy deserves respect for what he has started.. And as you can read on posts before, i am not blind to that fact.

Magyar.. First of all I would like to add to your words the following.. It was not me who called the appearance of Gazoz suspicious. I thought it was a good idea , u could need the help , and in that light i had offered my services to you. I enjoy improving things and adding to them.. I realise i may have stepped on some toes while trying to think what i thought was right - it is never fun when people try to alter something that u have worked hard on to get it as what it is. Yes I remember having put the words "THIS JUST AIN'T GONNA WORK" at the bottom of one of my posts. If you still have a copy of that post than i will gladly explain that further. I recall it being in reference to a rule but i don't recall which one as i made so many posts. Final , in regard to the Danes.. Well i said some stuff i shouldn't have said (and i think they did too) but i was just very pissed off by the fact that they had never stopped by or suggested anything than barged in and tell us it was either change the rules or the Danes leave.

Right I hope i have made some things a bit more clear now.

Magyar Khan
07-04-2001, 22:06
Cape....

"... first off...we have almost 600 posts by members of fear, in our forum, concerning the campaign. there is not 1 single rule that we agree with magy about. not 1."

hmmm that must be a well kept secret by then, i never noticed that besides the hcav general thing.

and really, not 1 rule? not even the rule that are allows u to invade every adjacent province? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Magyar Khan
07-04-2001, 22:16
Satake

It were not your words about gazoz, but as i remember well darthguru, your clanmate and representative of the clan.

And if i remember well that AINT thing was about teh large port thing, allowing clans to hop all over the map, where eventually it resulted in the 2 greencard payment and an easier defense against it.

Why do/did the clans have to stand up against me concerning the campaign? Why did u feel the need to. some emailed me their concern about some aspects and i was solely busy to get the noses right, and perhaps in to much searching the compromise.

At least it all resulted in a much better and more clear procedure.

Zen Blade
07-04-2001, 23:18
If I might attempt to be a peace maker here guys...

I think the biggest problem was trying to play it while coming up with rules.

Since there were so many different players involved, everyone will want the rules to be slightly different.

And although making the rules democratic was the correct thing to do... I would have suggested making a smaller group of players (no more than 3) who first propose/make all the rules. Then, slight adjustments can be made.

Also, I would recommend, assuming Magyar wishes to do a future campaign that he makes 90+% of the rules before starting. Changing rules once the game starts can be ok, but people will complain, no matter what the change is. Especially if the change is seen to benefit any one clan in particular, or to hurt them in particular.

also, I know quite a few clans were complaining about the rules and the rule making process, maybe not too much aloud, but definitely more in quiet.

-Zen Blade

------------------
Zen Blade Asai
Red Devil
Last of the RSG
Clan Tenki Council-Unity

07-04-2001, 23:52
Magyar: I want Euros and Kenchis in because they will give a great challenge and the campaign will be absolutely greater with them in. It's just for more fun! Now, it will be very difficult to find an independet gamesmaster because most of the bright players are all playing in the campaign but I am sure enough that someone would turn up.

So the campaign will start with 6 clans on the Japanese mainland and some weeks later Korea/China would invade Japan. I am very happy to hear and see a guarantee of this.
And I liked very much the old map as I like the new map and sincerely think that the system is great and I hope it works.

The Korean invasion etc. would create new rules so I hope we discuss on them on the campaign forums (when we finally get to post there, of course)

Also Magyar, don't try to rush to begin with the campaign. As Zen Blade suggested let's try to finish off all rules and discussions about campaign (the new korean-related rules for example) before we start for real. Then when we are ready we can really make a great experience.

Satake: Magy is guaranteeing you that Korea is gonna exist and if a volunteer turns up, Magy would resign as gamemaster. And you say "Magy doesn't want us" . If you're not afraid of going against Magyar why do you depend so much on his opinion? And your suspicion on him is just too extreme (especially you san), as if he doesn't want to make a great event out of this campaign. So what is your problem now? You are given the possibility to speak up in the campaign, too.

Can you just all forget what happened on kawachi and forget all these problems and abide by the rules that after all you contributed also for their development?

Do you think that with your exclusion you are only showing Magyar that you aren't afraid of him? Well not for me. It's an insult for the good of the campaign that you also contributed for its success. Why should we participants be deprived of your fruitful presence because of a discussion on what happened in the past? Look forward and see the new rules. They're better and greater. Thanks for your apologizes on the term 'lapdogs', it really hit me hard.

Please, Kenchis and Euros, reconsider your position and take part in the campaign. The map is more challenging and its more simple than it appears- just more lands on the horizon.

I am not favouring anyone, just precizing that this post can't make the campaign less interesting. Please try to understand my whole point which turns on a moral basis of having you or not in this campaign.

Tera

P.S.

My 700 post was dedicated for the making of the best experience out of this event. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
------------------
Honour to Clan No Fear.

Visit my resource centre here! (http://terazawa.totalwar.org)
Evil is within us...
http://terazawa.totalwar.org/evil.jpg

[This message has been edited by Terazawa Tokugawa (edited 07-04-2001).]

Magyar Khan
07-05-2001, 01:35
and i promised it to the rage, and who dare to stand up to them http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

(testing my new signature)

------------------
http://home-4.worldonline.nl/%7Et543201/web-shogun/shogun-images/armystamp.jpg Quote All land from sunrise to sunset is given to us.[/QUOTE]
www.mongols.club.tip.nl (http://www.mongols.club.tip.nl)

Magyar Khan
07-05-2001, 01:38
and test for this one

------------------
http://home-4.worldonline.nl/%7Et543201/web-shogun/shogun-images/armystamp.jpg Quote All land from sunrise to sunset is given to us.[/QUOTE] www.mongols.club.tip.nl (http://www.mongols.club.tip.nl) www.totalwar.club.tip.nl (http://www.totalwar.club.tip.nl) www.campaign.club.tip.nl (http://www.campaign.club.tip.nl)

[This message has been edited by Magyar Khan (edited 07-04-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Magyar Khan (edited 07-04-2001).]

DarthGuru
07-05-2001, 01:55
Hello all,
I see that a lot has gone on here since I last checked... Although I do see valid reasons for each side, I can tell neither will admit their wrong, whether it be us or someone else. I know Magy does get a lot of shit from people, just because he is Magyar. But not everyone that says something constructive is out to get ya.

As for the suspision thing, all you go to far... Kenchi, Euros and an ally had from the beginning of the campaign started out our attack spots and defense. We never had any suspision of anything, the only thing we were talking together about was where to attack and how to attack it. When the incident happened at Kawachi, many many many people were pissed (not just kenchi, euro, or our allies), so of course there will be some flaming, and no doubt suspision (since the Gamemaster was involved). After this I didn't know there was any problem again. I thought the rules had been fixed, and an agreement had been made. I was happy that although something bad happened (flaming and criticism together), we were able to come to an agreement and play on. So I thought till the campaign was closed....

Here is where the main suspision I believe mainly started, when the campaign was closed then reopened. The day it had reopened (I didn't recieve my email yet, but I saw it was reopened on its main site) I was pretty happy. I was talking with Elm that night on STW about it, and he can tell you that I wasn't suspicious about anything, more like I was excited to play again. I understand you wanted active clans, and understood why we were left out. I think you guys are stressing too much on the fact of us Kenchi being left out in the beginning of the new campaign. Thats not what drived us, it was that Euros was left out (which brought on the suspision, put yourself in our shoes, seriously how could you not be suspicious??) . Anyways we had try to keep this thread within the problem, but now our names our being dragged in the mud (esp our clans) , and that I knew it would be taken personally.

Well for the most part, I think the campaign was an awesome idea, and looks like it could have a very good future. Try to remember in your flaming, don't let it get personal and nasty (including you Satake) we were all friends once http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif. Magy I do think it would be a good idea for you to either give up being the gamemaster, or withdraw yourself from the campaign (either or), that way no one can accuse you of bending, fixing or whatever. Most likely you'd like to play, and I've seen that your asking for someone to volunteer as gamemaster. I think you now see my point, that as a host and a participating clan leader, suspicion will come your way whether you did it intenionally or not. By the way what do you mean I posted something about Gazoz? All I remember is seeing that you added a new Gamemaster in Gazoz and reading on. I never posted anything about him, nor do I know who he is :X (no offense). So I don't really know what your talking about here...

As for rejoining the campaign, I don't think we'll be rejoining, and if we do, not for a little while. I can see from this thread and the tone of most people, that I was right in that we know where we are not wanted. Many words have already been tossed around, and feelings of everyone seems to have been hurt. Remember what Zen said, that many were complaining, and as Satake said many will not make their opinion public in front of Magy ( and everyone, maybe not Magy since they cant say it to him, know this to be true ). We have enough respoect for him, not to talk behind his back and to come forward with it. Anyways I apologize on behalf of EVERYONE for all feelings that have been hurt and words that have been tossed around. Seems like pride has taken over this thread now, and if it will end it I will take all the blame. I am the ruler of all Evil! Everyone will die! :P

-DarthGuru
Rightful Heir of Kenchikuka
Honour to our Daimyo Asaji!


PS what does lapdogs mean? :X

CaPeFeAr
07-05-2001, 01:58
lol....its true magy...not 1 rule....not even the one concerning attacking adjacent teritories. i will look into the the matter and see if there is someway to allow you acess to these numerus posts..some personal clan thoughts are mixed in but for the most part we have a thread in our forum decidated to stragity and rules...maby i could seperate the rules forum and give u access...hmm it is an idea a must bring up to my clanmates. but in the meantime feel free to ask me in email or in privet about any of fears opinions...i think we shall again try and stay out of the public forums to reduce flaming and allow some of are good ideas to be recieved by openminded people first b4 they are subjectated to the harh opinions of people with personal gain at stake. imho the reason we couldnt agree on the rules in the last campiagn was because the clans looked at a new rule proposal and said "whats in it for me" ....btw...the hc general never came close to being a reason to quit the campaign...i debated passonatly because i believe that it increases the amount of luck involved in victory. (however this is not the thread to debate this) but if i recall my post decribed a compramise of any unit BESIDES muskets or ashi as general. fear can live with any rule so long as its applied to every1 fairly, and in all cases are willing to compramise...in order to make this work we all must give a little.

http://home.ec.rr.com/fearfulways/flag/img0.gif

[This message has been edited by CaPeFeAr (edited 07-04-2001).]

07-05-2001, 02:46
Darth,

I know its difficult to enter the campaign since you said you will not before.

But, imagine the poor Kage, Leo, Takage, Terutora, Kikujiro... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
And after all it will be fun. Come on guys, just get over this discussion and participate. Please. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Tera

------------------
Honour to Clan No Fear.

Visit my resource centre here! (http://terazawa.totalwar.org)
Evil is within us...
http://terazawa.totalwar.org/evil.jpg

DarthGuru
07-05-2001, 03:17
Hmm...
I actually was going to push to rejoin the campaign before some of the newer threads. I knew from the email that we were not wanted in the first place. But I could see many positive changes, and that it may have been good for us to play in it. But it still comes down to the fact that we are not wanted...

All clan leaders got the email with the list of new clans. What bothered me was that, he didn't even ask the starting 6 clans, in otherwords he knew who he didn't want to start. I know that we aren't as active, and that has a lot to do with our site being, down (sorry father Asaji but the new one looks more then great ;D ). But Magy you of all people should know we will always be around, and we no matter what always try to keep appointments. The past few weeks it has been nearly impossible locating each other, except through the org forum and the foyer if we ever bumped into each other. So we never had the luxury of discussing everything or anything in this case before we say it out loud. Anyways people like to govern their clans differently, I believe in freedom of speech, and I like to allow my clan members to do as they please (following, of course, a set of morals, honour, and the rules we all know). But everyone is already quick to judge, without ever seeing whats really going on, this is sadly to say our case fairly often... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif

The thing that hurt us the most is that, people saying that we were doing this for our own personal gains. If you truely knew us and our clan you wouldn't and couldn't say such things. It may be our fault that we can't be as well-planned as all of you, due to our lack of resources. And it may be our fault that we don't want to recruit too many members ( which lead to our first fall, and very very tough times, ask jstfeared, he helped me through it http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif ). But like I said many words were tossed around and many feelings hurt, so I'm trying to overlook most things said here.

Anyways I am trying to get in contact with our other members to get their opinions. And if we end up not participating, I was planning on volunteering for one of the Gamemaster positions (that is if time allows, and if everyone doesn't hate me http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif) But I guess we'll still have to see. As I said before just count us out, it will take us awhile to get our clans opinion on this or any matter. In the meanwhile good luck to all of you and enjoy...

07-05-2001, 05:07
Ok Darth, at least I didn't get a straigh NO.

And I don't "they don't want us". Who doesn't? Maybe Magyar? If yes so what!?

If he finds a new gamesmaster (thanks for applying http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif ) and you are not dependent on his opinion, that reason sucks.

Come on people, lets have fun. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

------------------
Honour to Clan No Fear.

Visit my resource centre here! (http://terazawa.totalwar.org)
Evil is within us...
http://terazawa.totalwar.org/evil.jpg

DarthGuru
07-05-2001, 06:00
yes well judging by just the posts on this thread, he wouldn't be the only one that comes across as if he didnt want us... :P

DarthGuru
07-05-2001, 06:02
either way, wouldnt you say in this case his opinion should be the one that matters most. Since he did create it and is still currently the host... Even when he does give up the gamemaster position, he is still host of the website... I mean I don't go into someones house and tell him whose welcome or not...

Anyways there are no hard feelings, and I understand why they or he wouldnt want us there. I would still like to be apart of the campaign (the reason I volunteered, but I'll understand if I don't get the job, no hard feelings http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif ) and I think it still could have a great future.

I cannot force my clan to participate, most of them (well I haven't been able to see half of them but of those who i saw) also got the notion that they are not wanted. In any case I will collect the rest of the clan's opinion and just count us out. Good Luck to all...

Ahhh so thats how you edit :P


[This message has been edited by DarthGuru (edited 07-05-2001).]

Magyar Khan
07-05-2001, 07:18
Darth

I cancelled the campaign because i was dissapointed after the unnumerous posts where i got also the feeling that with me as a gamemaster it would never work. I know that i cant please anyone and ofcourse i know that it is suspicious if a host participate as well. but 2 things:
1- who the hell will volunteer to keep all members under control? I was more busy emailing u and creating compromises than running my own clan.
2- if someone else came up with the idea and we joined i wouldnt be dissapointed that the host was joining. It just depends on the intention why u join a campaign (or tourney).

When i asked clans to join u all knew i was the gamemaster and we agreed we were in a learning process.

----------------------------------------
So tonight i spent my first night online without having a battle. I could pursuave Gazoz to be the sole gamemaster but it would be stupid if we let him do it all alone. So a reasonable and smart thinking person is still needed. and for me you are allowed to do it but it would be wiser to take someone who doesnt participate.
And as he stated even if i resign i am the stockholder and that takes a responsibility.

Then we talked a long time about on how to let the euro and kenchi play from the start, for this i decided that if u both still want to join the wolves will step out from that first start and will be added within 1-2 weeks after the start in new territory in Asia.

But then we came up with all sorts of problems like : the participating clans vote on the entry of new clans.... what will u all decide about us? and they vote on many things: i make the provincelayout for the new territory..... what will u say about that? i will make a first selection of areas to pick for all clans in teh second wave....will u agree? I will decide which maps correspond with the province....will u agree? I and a second general decide the maprating of the maps.....will u all agree?

u see many questions on work that still have to be done. and i will accept suggestions like zen made about the ports between bizen and sanuki but i want to get the feeling that besides being a participating clanleader people feel that i am doing this all with the best and most fair intentions.

Dont think ever that i have to bring the wolves in an unfair advantageous position to have a win. Better give us a bad position so the victory will taste better. I dont have to spent so many time to build a platform for battles to beat up some clans. I just wanted to add some depth to the battles.

For the restart i choose less number of clans since that should be easier to control. And ofcourse we thought of all sorts of scenarios. But if we let just euro in, and within a short period the wolves and an ally start beating them up.... so i thought let euro and kench have china in teh second run, and rage korea as promised to them over a month ago. and elite could recover from their loss of players and tenki could state what future they see for themselves.

And with every campaign it needs active players, and different groups for the diplomacy.

Thats why we need all active clans, kenchi and euro included. or as i suggested before a merged version like "CrusadingKen". From the start and even from teh restart i made every suggestion here and with gazoz to have u in.

GAzoz spent many time in reading all rules and created the 10 commandments for participating. After he joined i saw that the first step i took by myself was abit ambitious and perhaps i was little naiev that all clans shared the same ideas. bUt for now i am more convinced it will work.

I will be online late tomorrow and i hope gazoz and ,e will meet you and invite u to my Ger for some chat about this matter.

----------------------------------------
btw these are the ones who got the email, is your adress in it? arent u shaun?

wwwolf@galactica.it ; thedanes@foxypro.dk ; shaun107kim@hotmail.com ; shadesofshogun@yahoo.com ; roy_14@web.de ; ncbeach@aol.com ; micke.sthlm.karlsson@telia.com ; kspitw@maltanet.net ; ClanTenki@hotmail.com

Sp00n
07-05-2001, 07:24
Magy why do u still have to bring up our disagreement of 2 mnths ago i think most are fed up of it by now, just for the record u were not accused of cheating only as being dishonorable and in that game you were may i remind you there were 2 other players in that game, i stopped mentioning this point within a week after the game because San asked me too, but still you have to raise it. I wonder if you emitting Euro from the campaign restart had anything to do with us not being online? I doubt it m,ore to do with your dislike of certain members myself included.Also lowering yourself to taunt demon as a fake Eurosp00n, I ask you all is this the person you want in charge of the campaign? Grow up Magyar and get your facts straight if you gonna mention me in this forum. Maybe your are still at school playing king of the playground (hes not my m8 he cant play) ring any bells?

Sp00n



lol.

[This message has been edited by Sp00n (edited 07-05-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Sp00n (edited 07-05-2001).]

Magyar Khan
07-05-2001, 07:26
and this was the text of teh email, it aint a secret and cut and paste still works for me
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Dear guys

after working hard i can tell you we are almost ready to restart the campaign. as u might have noticed the site and the rules are heavily updated on the site. we decided to start with just 6 clans to ensure we can keep control of how the improved rules work out... these clans are:

TheShades
TheDanes
Grey Wolves
Lrossa
Fearfull
No Fear

Because clans are left out and many clans are waiting to join we will add new territory in steps. Depending on activity online and in the forum we will add new clans, to participate within weeks in Korea and china/mongolia.The first clans on this "to add list are" Kenchi Tenki Elite Euro and TheRage...

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Plz all visit the site and look upon the rules and the Law and order section.

In the law and order section u can find a way how we plan the start by the BIG LINK. But this part is under construction for some days so better not pay to much attention on that.

We plan to meet the leaders or representatives of the 6 clans online next saturday on a certain time to pick the areas. and actually start on next monday.

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So the main question to the 6 clans is IF THEY STILL WANT TO PARTICIPATE? where they take note of the law and order statement on the site

The question for the remaining clans is do they still want to join some weeks later outside Japan?

Ofcourse nice suggestions are helpfull.

Greetings

MagyarKhan

Satake
07-05-2001, 13:45
Spoon.. Magy... NO!

Zen Blade
07-05-2001, 14:44
Actually, you should put Rage where Tenki is Mag.

Nothing against you, but I already talked to Rage before the campaign was cut short about letting them be the primary controllers of our lands.

-Zen Blade

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Zen Blade Asai
Red Devil
Last of the RSG
Clan Tenki Council-Unity

Magyar Khan
07-05-2001, 16:04
hmmm just 1 post

if it is the real eurosp00n....what a display of sadness from the honourable clan. Why would we ever let a clan in who cant control its members?
For me the case aint closed since i have been not consulted by your leader.

In the case of the Demon.... nice try m8. Better create another plan to disrupt the campaign m8.

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Zen, ofcourse they were 11th on the list. But perhaps u can explain to us what happend with clan Tenki?

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http://home-4.worldonline.nl/%7Et543201/web-shogun/shogun-images/armystamp.jpg Quote All land from sunrise to sunset is given to us.[/QUOTE] www.mongols.club.tip.nl (http://www.mongols.club.tip.nl) www.totalwar.club.tip.nl (http://www.totalwar.club.tip.nl) ]www.campaign.club.tip.nl (http://www.campaign.club.tip.nl[/URL)

07-05-2001, 18:16
Darth: Bah, now I give up. You are creating a false barrier not to participate. Now if really Magyar doesn’t want you, do you think he will be so darn unfair and ‘evil’ to make your campaign life a hell? I think not! And if he (may God come and burn my tongue if yes) does make something totally against the rules to hurt your clan, can’t you just leave the competition, then!

Try to see my point please. You say that Magyar doesn’t want you. Ok. True.
But in not a clear way you say that by logic if Magyar doesn’t want you, then he will cheat against you. False!

But of course, you are all too stubborn to say, “it’s my fault” or “I am wrong” or “sorry you are right”. And this is the problem of this mad world and of this fantastic community.

In other words, Darth and San you said it yourself, this campaign is the best thing that ever was created within this community. And if were you I would take part even if I had 100 clans against me; to show them the real power of NoFear. And second reason? Just to have some fun.

But I will not whine more to get you in. I am not your protector, just smacking my head against the wall to try and convince you that actually no real barrier exists. But, anyway, it’s your decision. At least we won’t have to fight one of the hardest opposition, which actually I am totally not happy about, cause I want to play the best to have a true total war.


Magyar: We all know that a best games master there can be is actually the creator of the campaign that is you. I suggested a new games master to not create any problems between you and the Kenchis. But since it seems they gave up completely (hope there is some light of hope though…) I have no opposition for you as games master.

And try to speak to the concerned parties privately; I can assure you that real-time chat can solve the dissent better than a post in a forum. Don’t create barriers between you and them and at least try to see why I want the Kenchis + Euros in the campaign. After all you said it. “To taste victory better”. If you win the campaign but knowing that there maybe is a better clan out there is not the best of challenges; and a competitive person like you should visualize this morale aspect better. And if you really don’t like them, then try to crush them in battle, and hunt them, as you normally do.

Have a good day.

Tera

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Honour to Clan No Fear.

Visit my resource centre here! (http://terazawa.totalwar.org)
Evil is within us...
http://terazawa.totalwar.org/evil.jpg

EuroSan
07-05-2001, 19:18
Tera mate i told you 10+ times, also posted it...feel free to read my posts again, i only was/is against the thing that happend on Kawachi........have i posted anywhere that i dont approve of Magy to be the Gamemaster??(then show me where if i forgot that)
IF i was against magy as GM you cant know..you cant read my mind.and IF i wasnt against it, you wouldnt know either (you still cant read my mind) http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif

And YES i have saluted Magy for his effort of this Campaign....and also was happy to helping with adding ides for improvments(not for my self benifits,just for a more challanging and balanced game/Campaign)
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Magy..
The sp00n thing.......you say i take side before hearing both sides, well i had heard both sides.
You claim its the attackers RIGHT to use the RED zone..thats the thing that makes me take side on that issue, i dont think anyone should be on the RED zone(even if the defender edge Camp.....he still has one more flank to attack!!!
Thats why i take sp00n´s side of that thing that happend, becuse you say you did play with the RED zone and after you say its your right as attacker...end of that Topic!!

And Magy...about holding my members, how many times do i have to post this.....am not a diktator over them or there FATHER..they are grown up men and i can only give them advice, not Controll them(would never cross my mind to do that)
So please drop that talk, we see those things diffrent so let it be that way then!!

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Cape mate
First: At least i gave you time for the battle´s and you could have said it wasnt good time for you(i missed the time zone thing) And could have given us another time for those battles you refer to..

about this "...1 lone member posting his opinions doesnt mean much"
Do you have access to our forum???
Or the Msn where we talk everyday (the Euro members)????
I ask all the members there taughts and also link the posts for them to go and see..

And again i say have fun with the campaign, i mean it....i loved the ide and work Magy did put in to it
(also it was the whole Euro clans feeling to not attend it now)





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May the honour be with you all..........EuroSan the reborned spirit of LinkSan

Magyar Khan
07-05-2001, 20:47
san
about that red zone thing on hachiman, u didnt hear my opinion on it. u just use my general opinion on the red zoneproblems to extrapolate it onto the case on hachiman and explaining it for yourself why i could have done it. that aint the same as hearing my opinion!

i hope paolai showed it to u, it is a bug on that map and is easily reproducable and i will let it happen every time i move my horses to that spot since i dont want to micromanage every step of my horses.

for the details on the subject i can advice people to visit the euro forum.

my opinion on the red zone for all visitors

the attacker is allowed to use it (although i still didnt researched the real benefits) since the defender should stay away from the edges of the map. the game is not designed to defend on the edges. The funny thing is (to make it real complex) spoon wasnt even defending on the edge of the map.
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btw tera, did u miss my point that i resigned as a gamemaster? gazoz is doint it but we need at least one more.

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http://home-4.worldonline.nl/%7Et543201/web-shogun/shogun-images/armystamp.jpg Quote All land from sunrise to sunset is given to us.[/QUOTE] www.mongols.club.tip.nl (http://www.mongols.club.tip.nl) www.totalwar.club.tip.nl (http://www.totalwar.club.tip.nl) ]www.campaign.club.tip.nl (http://www.campaign.club.tip.nl[/URL)

Paolai
07-05-2001, 20:54
how many words!!!! lol

well....like i have already said to my clanmates, i have decide to leave stw. I have no more the same feeling with this game...so....
When Magy created the campaign, i had a great enthusiasm for that...but when i saw that he cancelled it...... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif
BTW, i think that it is time "to change" game, and so, also if the Euros will join the new campaign, i will not join with them, and San already knows that.

Thks to all for the great games and for the great fun, and i hope to see you all with the addon.

bye
EuroPaolai

P.S: my opinion is that this campaign is Magy's campaign, and he can choose wich and how many clans can join.

[This message has been edited by Paolai (edited 07-05-2001).]

DarthGuru
07-05-2001, 22:03
wow! you guys have completely skewed off my point... Tera did you not read what I was saying? Half of this thread, people have been making up our thoughts for us...

I even said I'm gonna try to get my clan's opinion all over again on join the campaign. And if they didn't want to join, I even was volunteering to be Gamemaster. How is that making a false barrier?? In my eyes, its taking steps to help participate or get back into the campaign little by little....

Sorry I don't have time right now, but when I do I'll try to redescribe what I've been trying to say...

[This message has been edited by DarthGuru (edited 07-05-2001).]

07-06-2001, 01:09
No one seems to care of something that is called fun. Too many words. As if you guys depend on people's opinion about you.

I don't want this campaign to get messed up because of discussions on a stupid past. Come on, if you don't want to participate for any reason don't do it, I won't care anymore now.

I'll look forward to this campaign knowing that two of the great challenges are already out of scene. I have no problem with the rules as they are, so for me let's begin and have fun! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Participants cheer, others walk on by, and if you ever decide to come in, I'll be there to welcome you. (or with a nice smile or with a katana. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif)

This is my last post here ok. If you want me find me on ea, icq or msn but I am not again saying anything.

Tera


------------------
Honour to Clan No Fear.

Visit my resource centre here! (http://terazawa.totalwar.org)
Evil is within us...
http://terazawa.totalwar.org/evil.jpg

[This message has been edited by Terazawa Tokugawa (edited 07-05-2001).]

Sp00n
07-06-2001, 01:29
Magy

How many times? the issue in that game was not that you used the red zone this you know and your story changes every time. The issue was and still is your attitude when questioned in that game about using it. First you laughed then after doing it a second time i add second time it was you who got abusive and has been ever since.
I have enjoyed for the last 2 mnths not talking to you and as i said then ill repeat here for you in case you not clear I will never play you again and have not done since that day that was the end of it I thought but no you have to keep mentioning it,and on your point about Demon using my Name dont lie to all here Magy you were gesting witht the fake Sp00n as I was online on one occasion watching you and that wasnt the only time according to other players you now add lieing to your list of dishonorable traits. If you feel that you still have to continue with this arguement that is up to you, personally i prefered it over the last 2 mnths when we didnt talk and believe it would be best for Shogun if we both sut up about the whole incident (like i have been until your recent outburst).

Sp00n

DarthGuru
07-06-2001, 04:02
Hello all im back :P ,

I can say there are no false barriers, because we have made all the barriers present in this thread. We've stated our stances on why we first planned on not rejoining the campaign. As paolo said here "my opinion is that this campaign is Magy's campaign, and he can choose wich and how many clans can join. " I still see this as Magys campaign since he did almost all the work making it (which I must say again, did a good job with a great but hard idea) and is still hosting the site. Tera you are acting like EA has made it for everyone to use, in which case we would already be resigned in. As Magyar said that friends of the campaign, meaning himself obviously, will be included; proving once again that it is his campaign. On the topic of caring about other people's opinions, I think we have made it abundantly clear that we mainly worry about Magyar's opinion because he is the host and the sole bearer of the campaign. Let me requote, once again, paolo since he sees it as we do "my opinion is that this campaign is Magy's campaign, and he can choose wich and how many clans can join. " Tera you were a part of our clan for a short time, but obviously still don't understand how we work; our clan greatly depends on the opnion of its members more then its officers. Magy, who was with us for awhile, seems to understand.

As for the flaming I even have said I will take full responsibility for our clans actions and anyone else, who knows they are wrong but will never admit, to get over this and to move on. I once again apologize for all hurtful words said, but no matter what any of us say and do, I know that nothing can change the fact that it has already been said and everyone will think differently from this point.

Do you think we joined this campaign to see whats wrong with it and then flame??? Do you really think so lowly of us?? Of course our intention of joining this campaign was all in fun. We, as in Kenchikuka, were more then excited at the beginning and were discussing strategies, offensive and defensive moves the entire time, not scheming of ways to bring it down. Like I said I can't force my clan to do anything (this is not old Japan, and I am not a real Daimyo or the Heir in my case), therefore people in my clan can leave and go about as they wish without punishment, as they already do.

Tera I know you were trying to help us and have us participate in one of the best ideas we've seen so far in this game, but you have hurt us more by prejudging us in almost all your arguements (some of the things you said I can't believe you would say it, but I'm still trying to overlook everything said here). You have literally put words in our mouth and obviously have not even thoroughly read the entire posts, even others recognized this (not just the euros and kenchi)... I will still try to push for rejoining, and if we still don't or can't, I will still be open to volunteer as gamemaster.

Paolo: This is horrible news. You have been a great friend to the clan over the years and we are more then sadden to hear you are leaving the game. To be truthful I also have been losing in the game the past few weeks, not due to these past events. I'm hoping the exp pack will reboost my intrests. But don't plan on seeing me leave anytime soon :P...

This as well will be my last post. I will contact Magy directly if we do plan on rejoining. And Magy if you still need the extra game master, yes my email is shaun107kim@hotmail.com. I see now that this thread is going no where fast. I hope we can all see past the harsh words, and see that everyone here does have a valid point in their arguement. Good luck to all...

-DarthGuru

P.S. Magy and sp00n please don't go back there http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif

Kocmoc
07-06-2001, 04:03
hi guys,


many words!!!
What u want?

im here to play and have fun! U?
This campain is the best what could happen to us, i think every clan should have interes
to play in this!

If there is a need of a 2nd gamemaster if u all agree i can take this spot and i will dont play than.
I love this, and i have and great respect of mag´s work, so i will dont play....if u agree.


Chris, if u like u can speak to me .... i dont post here.


koc

Magyar Khan
07-06-2001, 05:23
Paolai said to here that u leave since i was convinced u would have joined unconditionally. I am glad to hear u will be back soon.

Sp00n, ur right i laughed with the demon on his sheep act. And i still think it was funny for me. Luckily i am a masterlyer.
Btw i cant even remember i denied it i did laugh about it. But please dont deny and what u called me online and how u acted to dareal when he nicely tried to solve things.

DArth, i will ask Gazoz that u volunteerd for the campaign gamemaster.

Yes this is my campaignthinky and i declare myself stupid i didnt invent it much sooner. And i rushed in to fast creating it and as i said i started on the wrong foundation.

It will restart and i am sure we all learn from this and will use this experience to establish a good base for the future.




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http://home-4.worldonline.nl/%7Et543201/web-shogun/shogun-images/armystamp.jpg Quote All land from sunrise to sunset is given to us.[/QUOTE] www.mongols.club.tip.nl (http://www.mongols.club.tip.nl) www.totalwar.club.tip.nl (http://www.totalwar.club.tip.nl) ]www.campaign.club.tip.nl (http://www.campaign.club.tip.nl[/URL)

Sp00n
07-06-2001, 06:11
Sorry Magy u have the wrong facts again yes Dareal got involved and when I didnt wish to speak with him or join his game he too got abusive like yourself, the way u keep bringing that arguement up makes u very very sad, it was 2 mnths ago and your story changes every time. Does Dareal normally sort things out nicely by telling others players to fuck off Magy? I say once again if u wanna post about me here get your facts right over long forgotten arguements u sad sad man.
I will wish u well with the campaign i was not in the first campaign and the first i heard of this arguement was recently, so why i am mentioned Magy is beyond me, u obvouisly dont take kindly to your misgivings in games and never forget.
Mike I will speak to u about it anytime m8 I had forgotten about it until Magyar thought it his right to bring it up in this forum,you are a friend unlike your clanmate.

Sp00n

And Magy dont lie about what was said in the game Dishonorable is what you were called not a cheat as u wish to think.


[This message has been edited by Sp00n (edited 07-06-2001).]

DarthGuru
07-06-2001, 06:16
Sorry!! :P

I know I said I wouldn't post again, but this is to Magy. I wanted to make it clear that I was only volunteering to be Gamemaster if my clan decides not to participate. So I'm still trying to get in touch with them all, and I'll be sure to tell you as soon as I can which it will be. Thanks http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

MagyarKhans Cham
07-06-2001, 06:55
Howl, from my own history notes, for fans of the maggy vs spoon topic can folow this link...
http://pub45.ezboard.com/feuropeansamuraijsfrm3.showMessageRange?topicID=55. topic&start=1&stop=20 (http://pub45.ezboard.com/feuropeansamuraijsfrm3.showMessageRange?topicID=55.topic&start=1&stop=20)


oops almost wrong link
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http://home-4.worldonline.nl/%7Et543201/web-mongol/mongol-images/mongolsmiley.gif Quote Although the enemy moves fast, a mongol arrow will kill him at last[/QUOTE]

[This message has been edited by MagyarKhans Cham (edited 07-06-2001).]

[This message has been edited by MagyarKhans Cham (edited 07-06-2001).]

ElmarkOFear
07-06-2001, 11:55
Gentlemen, I am sorry to say, but this thread has finally broken down into strictly personal arguements, and has drifted away from campaign issues. I will not delete it, but will lock it down before it causes any more hard feelings. I hope that everyone will think seriously before posting and keep personal animosity just that . . personal and not public here in the forum.