PDA

View Full Version : The monastery forum going off-track?



Spartakus
02-11-2005, 15:42
"A discussion forum linked to the historical periods depicted in the Total War games series."

So it is written, the description of this forum.

However, lately I've seen quite an increase in threads dealing with historical periods which have little or nothing to do with either medieval times, antiquity or feudal Japan. Threads like "Hardest looking aircraft", "Greatest British Prime Minister", "Austria-Hungary survival" and the ones about the US and terrorism, are in my opinion way out of place in this forum.

Not that there's anything wrong with the threads themselves, I think most of them are quite interesting. It's just that the monastery, to me, was one of the few historical forums where I could find threads and discussions about the periods which fascinate me the most, which are exactly the ones this forum is supposed to cover according to description.

If there's been a change in policy, then I'm the fool here. If not, I would appreciate it if we could move these non-medieval, non-antiquity and non-feudal Japan threads to either the entrance hall or tavern forums. :bow:

Red Harvest
02-11-2005, 15:52
I agree, the monastery forum has been derailed.

Mouzafphaerre
02-11-2005, 17:55
-
Restricting the time periods has recently been discussed and didn't find much favour from "different" members of the ORG. I'm personally not bothered about discussing non-TW topcs or watching them discussed. Threads that aren't historical, although they might seem to be to some, should be -and are- moved out of the Monastry.

I don't like the "what if" speculations about unrelated issues, lik the recent thread about matching Moltke's Prussin army and the US Union Forces, but they're still history-related in a sense and I'm not against them.

Improving the content is in our very hands. I've started several topics with no replies. If you have anything to contribute, you're cordially invited. :bow:
-

Mount Suribachi
02-11-2005, 18:04
Well, as long as I've been here, The Monastry whilst described as a forum for the historical periods of the TW series has always been, in practise, a general history forum.

Spartakus, have you tried the Paradox forums? Their historical forums are divided by period, and are also an excellent - the level of knowledge there is very high, higher than here IMO (and that is in no way meant as a criticism of the level of historical knowledge of the org)

Mouzafphaerre
02-11-2005, 18:14
-
Where is that? :jumping:
-

The Wizard
02-11-2005, 20:08
Here: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=44

Also, try the excellent All Empires forums: http://www.allempires.com/forum/

The latter is an all-history forum, and the level of knowledge on subjects is very great, although there are many "lesser" amateur historians there as well. Look out especially for the excellent articles by the creator of the site, Cyrus Shahmiri.



~Wiz

Gregoshi
02-11-2005, 22:29
Since I've been riding shotgun over this forum for 7-8 months now, I should comment on this. In general, as MS stated, the description and actual practice have been that all historical periods were fair game. The current thread in the Watchtower was to discuss 1) should the description of the Monastery be updated to include history in general, and 2) should there be a cut-off date as to what is "history" and what is "current events". It seems everyone agreed that the description should be updated, but where the cut-off should be was not adequately resolved. While early replies indicated a cut-off somewhere in the first half of the 20th century, many of the later responders differed with this, one even suggesting "history" as anything up until the fall of the Soviet Union. It isn't clear to me where we go from here, but I'd definitely prefer 1960 as the absolute latest date, with 1945 being better and 1900 or 1918 as being best.

As for some of the more recent and more controversial threads (in subject matter and applicability to the Monastery), I have to take the brunt of this criticism. Unfortunately I am out of time at the moment, so I'll comment on this later. Sorry.

Mouzafphaerre
02-11-2005, 22:45
-
Thanks for the link! ~:)
-

Red Harvest
02-11-2005, 23:57
Gregoshi,

I don't see this as a problem in your modding. It is more that there have been a lot of political rather than historical threads recently. It puts a damper on the forum when the topics are primarily political. I come in here looking for a more historical depth on military tactics, equipment, and historic powers, I don't come in here looking for a fight...but I've never been one to back down from a fight either. ~:cheers:

Mouzafphaerre
02-12-2005, 00:15
-

...but I've never been one to back down from a fight either.
Very true...unfortunately. :no: I see a lot of people posting what they would regret -or be made regret ~;)- later but it "fits" with them so to speak.

When I see you lose your temper though, I get disappointed. ~:(

(In case I'm babbling nonsense, that's meant as a compliment in essence.)
-

Gregoshi
02-12-2005, 05:18
Now, to continue...


Gregoshi,


I don't see this as a problem in your modding. It is more that there have been a lot of political rather than historical threads recently...
And this is where I have to shoulder some of the blame. If there are political threads in the Monastery, then it is my responsibility to move them to the Backroom. And some of you fine patrons of this forum even suggested these threads should be moved. Of the five recent threads of this nature (that I recall), I only moved one immediately, another I moved too late, another escalated out of control until I locked it and the other two remained untouched. Not a stellar track record. For the record, the five threads I'm thinking of are "Baltic States", "US deserves terrorism", "has diplomacy ever worked", "juice/squeeze", and "civilians".

I'll explain the logic behind my decisions so you can at least understand them but it is apparent I need to adjust my "logic". I am, by nature, an optimist. I tend to assume the better of people rather than the worst. When these "Backroom" topics appeared, although they could be politically charged, I assumed (I keep using that word) that this being the Monastery, that we would see past the politics and discuss the history. In all cases but the "Baltic States" thread that I did move, I saw the potential for an interesting historical discussion. Even the disasterous "US deserves terrorism" thread I thought danced around a potentially interesting subject. I know at times certain subjects can get a little heated in the Monastery, but as I (hopefully) learned, we do not always check our emotions at the door when we come to the Monastery - especially when it deals with strong and recent emotions. I'll try to do better in the future...and be a little less optimistic.

BTW, if you ever have an issue with something I did or didn't do, good or bad, please feel free to PM or email me. I'd appreciate the feedback. To paraphrase the Beatles: the Monastery and I will get by with a little help from our friends. ~:pat:

Thanks for starting the thread Spartakus. This is a topic ripe for discussion...but maaaybe I should move it to the Watchtower. ~;) Actually, I probably will once the discussion has run its course here. I'll leave it here for now for input from the Monastery regulars as I don't know how many of you actually check the Watchtower.

Mouzafphaerre
02-12-2005, 05:34
-

To paraphrase the Beatles: the Monastery and I will get by with a little help from our friends.
Now that's a surprise! The Beatles part that is... It's the motto of my brother-in-LIB...
-

IrishMike
02-12-2005, 05:37
To paraphrase the Beatles: the Monastery and I will get by with a little help from our friends.~:pat:

Thats my new sig right there.

Personally i'm all in favor of expanding the official title of the monastary, and as I argued in the watchtower its the ways views are put, not the views themselves that are the problem.

nokhor
02-12-2005, 14:29
the 'backroom' type threads and most of the discussion spiralling downwards were mostly originated by only 3-4 persons who were relatively new [at least under thier current names] to the monastery. so i see it as hopefully a temporary aberration. there's also usually a sharp upspike of nastiness at the org generally just before the release of a expansion, game, patch etc. as people become short tempered. so i'd like to attribute it to that also. but by all means keep cracking heads and do what must be done to keep the monastery civil.

Templar Knight
02-12-2005, 17:33
I think having something similar to the paradox history forums would be a good idea and maybe have a separate forum for ' what if ' scenarios.

Mount Suribachi
02-12-2005, 20:55
I think the line between politics and history can be a blurred one on occasion and to me this can for for a couple of reasons


1) The subject involved. I have been thinking about starting a thread about the 19th century Liberal party. Is this a watchtower thread (as it is history) or a Backroom thread (as it is politics)? Its not always easy to know. And many subjects are almost bound to cause political divisions along partisan lines. The "was it right to drop the bomb" thread from a while back is an example of such a thread (and that was an ugly thread, despite Isthaker Fearindels best efforts)

2) The people debating the subject. As an experienced mod and long time Org vet, I know that you know many of the patrons, their beliefs and their posting styles very well. And you will know that, even a controversial subject, if debated by the right people, can still be civil discussion. A thread where Mouzapherre, Simon Appleton, Red Harvest and (the newer, improved) Redleg are discussing is very likely to be of a high standard. OTOH if a couple of infamous backroomers, such as a young, English liberal and a young American conservative are involved, then the thread is very likely to become a mud-slinging match, especially as many backroom regulars carry their baggage, their grudges and their predjudices against other patrons with them wherever they go on the org. When this is the case, even non-political subjects will quickly divide along party lines.


Personally I don't think we need to create more history forums, the Monastery doesn't get that much traffic anyway.

Spartakus
02-12-2005, 21:57
Thanks for starting the thread Spartakus. This is a topic ripe for discussion...but maaaybe I should move it to the Watchtower. ~;) Actually, I probably will once the discussion has run its course here. I'll leave it here for now for input from the Monastery regulars as I don't know how many of you actually check the Watchtower.

No problem.

And I agree, this thread does belong in the Watchtower. However, the Watchtower is a forum I hardly frequent at all, so starting the thread there just didn't occur to me at that time. :stwshame:

Byzantine Prince
02-12-2005, 22:06
I have to agree with the starter of thsi topic. The Monastery should only be for the histories of Roman, Greek, and other Middle Aged countries and places. No more Stalin or plane threads!

Steppe Merc
02-12-2005, 22:54
Now that's a surprise! The Beatles part that is... It's the motto of my brother-in-LIB...
What about the second part of that line that says "I get high with a little help from my friends."? ~;)

And I think that this forum should be about history, but not just those relating to the games. I don't really like all the more modern threads, and I think the political ones shouldn't be here, but I think that as long as it's history related, and not politically or anything, it's good.

The Wizard
02-13-2005, 14:30
As a member for whom the Monastery is the most-frequented forum of the Guild, I do believe that this is a forum for all kinds of history, from Sumer through to the fall of the Soviet Union, although such discussions as the latter can quickly get out of hand, for they are so close to our own time that politics is a topic that can quickly get intertwined with the historical part of the discussion.

So, as far as I'm concerned, the Monastery is definately not going off-track, history presents many more interesting periods besides those presented in the Total War games. Keeping to those periods would prehibit us from speaking of Alexander the Great, of the so-called "Dark Ages", and of what was for Europe the Imperial Age, and on and on! Such important periods in our history cannot be excluded from discussion in here, I'd think.



~Wiz

Mouzafphaerre
02-13-2005, 17:06
-

I think having something similar to the paradox history forums would be a good idea and maybe have a separate forum for ' what if ' scenarios. That idea I will back up. Once upon a time we had a dungeon. Now, we have a modding subforum, which in turn has its own subforums and even dungeons... :dizzy2: Why not we have a history subforum with -maybe- period based or scope based (martial, politic, naval...) subsections and a devoted place for speculations/what if scenarios?

Considering the diversity of mods, no historical period is actually out of the scope of Totalwar games. ~;)

Mount Suribachi,

Your check is in mail and the hostages are freed. ~D Seriously, many thanks for the undeserved compliment.

:bow:
-

Mount Suribachi
02-13-2005, 18:26
I meant every word :bow:

Gregoshi
02-13-2005, 21:24
Although the idea of having sub-forums for different subjects has some merit, in reality I doubt there is a sufficient volume of posts to warrant a separate forum. With the wide range of time periods and topics currently in the Monastery, the rare "busy" day often doesn't exceed 12 posts.

Some nice points made about what is history and within the limits of the Monastery. In reading your comments and giving the matter further thought, I have revised my opinion on the matter a little bit. People tend to get most emotional if they have personally experienced an event directly or indirectly during their lifetime. Since we have at least a few patrons in the 50-60 years old range, that would put the anything from about 1950 and later in the realm of past events experienced by at least some of our patrons. With any such events, take the Vietnam war for example, you are likely to run into a clash of ideas between the older patrons who lived (or maybe fought) through it and those younger patrons who have only read about it. What is history to one patron is a life experience for another. Therefore I'm inclined to consider "history" anything beyond the memory/experiences of our patrons and 1950 make a nice round cut-off. Any comments on this line of reasoning?

IrishMike
02-13-2005, 22:32
I like the notion of 1950 as the cutoff. That way we get WW2 in which was mainly the last huge event in world history, with a few exceptions. And 1950 is old enough where most issues before 1950 are not too sensitive.

Mouzafphaerre
02-13-2005, 23:26
-
I spoke this out before but I think repeating it is appropriate: I'm against any hardcoded cutoff.

:bow:
-

Gregoshi
02-14-2005, 01:58
Well, in looking over this thread and the one in the Watchtower, the overwhelming consensus is to have no restrictions. Even some of the patrons that suggested a cut-off questioned the need for one. So it appears that the description needs to change to one of a general history forum with no restrictions on the time period.

PanzerJaeger
02-14-2005, 07:28
"Is the monastery forum going off track?"

If your reason is primarily the many non-total war era topics in here, then yes it has for a very long time and its never seemed to be a problem, imo.

If your reason is primarily the recent political topics, then no it has not. Those were a rare exception to the rules where someone unknowingly posted a hot political topic in the wrong forum and people lost their temper, myself included, and it was dealt with quickly and efficiently by the moderator..

Mouzafphaerre
02-15-2005, 00:28
-
...plus, many of those threads (the "squezze"" etc.) weren't linked to any period at all. ~;)
_

Templar Knight
02-15-2005, 19:25
http://www.nieuwint.net/images/cdv/smiley/banana.gif

Mouzafphaerre
02-15-2005, 22:16
-
http://www.thelib.com/gallery/albums/userpics/funkybanana.gif
-

Gregoshi
02-17-2005, 03:54
Now that the dancing bananas have made their appearance, it seems like a good time ask for any last minute comments before I whisk this thread off to the Watchtower.

To summarize, the concensus is to change the description of the Monastery so it is a general history forum. Further, there is no cut-off or chronological restriction on what is "history".

Anymore comments?

PanzerJaeger
02-17-2005, 05:22
Please include WW2 before the cut-off date!

Baiae
02-17-2005, 12:20
As for some of the more recent and more controversial threads (in subject matter and applicability to the Monastery), I have to take the brunt of this criticism. Unfortunately I am out of time at the moment, so I'll comment on this later. Sorry.

Actually I think you do a good job with moderating this forum. The only really offensive thread was closed before I could read it, and I check the org every day.

Mouzafphaerre
02-17-2005, 17:04
-

To summarize, the concensus is to change the description of the Monastery so it is a general history forum. Further, there is no cut-off or chronological restriction on what is "history".

Actually I think you do a good job with moderating this forum.
100% agreed. :bow:
-

Gregoshi
02-19-2005, 05:55
Moving to the Watchtower.