View Full Version : Nudity
I'm new to this forum, so please forgive me if this has been mentioned before.
My point is that the ancients had a much different attitude to nudity than we do and many of the men in an authentic simulation should fight completely naked, the Helvetii did according to Julius Caesar, so did many of the Celts, Berserkers, diverse barbarians (apart from a bit of warpaint/ashes/blood etc) I believe certain Greek units did too. It was a 'bravery' thing...
So... are you going to give them little modesty preserving shorts or kilts like the Vanilla R:TW does, or show them wild and free with scary penises flapping?
:)
Come Together
02-21-2005, 01:33
Honestly, I think it should be optional, if not with a small rag to cover those bits. Keep in mind that RTW was created as a Teen game, so alot of the audience consitutes of younger gamers. Also, a lot of men would probably be disturbed to see those sort of parts flopping around.
The only unit on any of our unit lists that fought naked, historically, were the Gaesetae. These will probably receive a loincloth, with an optional "historical" patch to remove the loincloth and expose the twig & berries, if you will ;)
Byzantine Prince
02-21-2005, 01:53
Why not have some greek units like that as well? IT would add to the realism.
Find us some primary sources regarding naked Greek units, and we'll consider adding them ;)
Byzantine Prince
02-21-2005, 02:43
Are you kidding? Almost every picture or sculpture from ancient Greece show nakedness. Why not include some (not all)?
BP, you must be kidding? That was among the most ignorant statements I've seen about Greek art history. I'm not insulting you, just stating a fact. You need to read up on the forms of statuary. There was a reason why they were naked, and it was the Greek romanticism with the nude human form, not because they walked around like that.
Times New Roman
02-21-2005, 04:55
I think khelvan has a 100% perfect idea here to plz everybody. Throw a loincloth over it and those that do wanna see the goods can download it in a patch...
What the hell is wrong with people? Do you really think a 15 year old boy/girl hasn´t seen or knows what a penis looks like? That and plenty more.
Is this criticism coming from the US? Cause the whole Janet Jackson Superbowl incident just made me laugh. Here we have shampoo commercials with naked women on them, for Christs´s sake. Breasts are not offensive.
What about you older guys, haven´t ever played a team sport or been in a locker room with other guys? Are you that uncomfortable about your sexuality?
I mean how conservative can you be?
It´s a penis. Get over it.
:end: :end: :end: :end:
The Panda Centurion
02-21-2005, 05:34
Seriously, boys see their penises every time they go to the bathroom, and girls should know what they're going to have to deal with later on in life, what's the problem? Nowadays there's such a big controversy over so-called "innapropriate" material; why is it innapropriate, it's how our bodies naturally are! If "God" had wanted us to wear clothes, we would be born with them on, i say.
Byzantine Prince, do you actually believe that the Greeks went into battle naked? How in the name of Christ do you expect they became such a great power if they didn't even wear clothing? The simple fact is that the Greeks thought naked men looked heroic, enough said, i think.
- Panda
Byzantine Prince
02-21-2005, 05:41
BP, you must be kidding? That was among the most ignorant statements I've seen about Greek art history. I'm not insulting you, just stating a fact. You need to read up on the forms of statuary. There was a reason why they were naked, and it was the Greek romanticism with the nude human form, not because they walked around like that.
Ugh! WTF! Yes dude they walked around naked. Who's ignorant here? Ancient greeks actually played games and fought wars leaving parts of their bodies(if not the whole thing) out in the air. I'm not saying make the soldiers completely naked. Just leave the crouch with nothing.
The Panda Centurion
02-21-2005, 05:59
The Greeks did compete in sports naked, as clothes would restrict movement and their lives were not at stake, but they did NOT fight in the nude; any barely-respectable scholar could tell you this.
- Panda
Are you kidding? Let me ask you something. Think for about five seconds. Would you want to fight someone waving a pointy object at you with your genitals uncovered? The Greeks think practically too.
Zalmoxis
02-21-2005, 06:31
Are you kidding? Let me ask you something. Think for about five seconds. Would you want to fight someone waving a pointy object at you with your genitals uncovered? The Greeks think practically too.
Though you would fight as such if you were sterile...(joke)
Ugh! WTF! Yes dude they walked around naked. Who's ignorant here? Ancient greeks actually played games and fought wars leaving parts of their bodies(if not the whole thing) out in the air. I'm not saying make the soldiers completely naked. Just leave the crouch with nothing.Wow, this is either VERY convincing satire, or something way out on the fringe. I mean, normally satire has to be -somewhat- realistic to be convincing, and this isn't close to being so, but you really seem sincere. You really have me fooled into thinking you're being serious. Bravo!
Paul Peru
02-21-2005, 17:00
I find it offensive that some of those guys, who clearly go around killing eachother dead, have no clothes on. This can influence kids to go skinny-killing, which is bad. :dizzy2:
Proper Gander
02-21-2005, 18:33
... and girls should know what they're going to have to deal with later on in life...
absolutely. :laugh4:
i totally agree with sarcasm, by the way....
Times New Roman
02-21-2005, 19:22
So... are you going to give them little modesty preserving shorts or kilts like the Vanilla R:TW does, or show them wild and free with scary penises flapping?
So...back to the original question...?
Dux Corvanus
02-21-2005, 20:42
Regarding Greek art, I must remind that Greek had a completely different sense of aesthetics than us. Though we've found them naked and ellegantly void of color, mostly thru Roman copies, Greek sculpture looked very different in their times.
They liked not 'natural marble' as we do.
Till classic Greek era, statues used to have a layer of goudy polichromy. Bodies were painted as flesh, hair was blonde, brown or black, eyes were not void as they're now, but had painted pupils, and garments were also coloured if present. Besides, they used to dress them with real clothes and/or armor, and put real weapons and other items such as shields, mirrors, sticks or lit torches in their marble hands.
Only in later times (Roman world, hellenistic empires) they started collecting and copying them in the way they used to find them, that is, naked and without color, as we know them.
So, yes, in post-classic Greek-Roman world, nudity was preserved as an heroic and/or divinity feature, but in its origin, Greek statuary was not intended to be constantly naked. That doesn't mean they were ashamed of nudity, but it had a strong religious and heroic nature, and was thus reserved to ritual exhibition (olimpic games) or heroic representation (statuary and pottery art).
BTW, I don't know of any Greek confrontation with naked warriors among their ranks. If you wanted to see naked brave guys, you had to assist to the sacred sport games -or be the younger one in the Greek social and educative institution of pederasty , but I doubt we liked it... ~:eek:
Byzantine Prince
02-21-2005, 23:10
Unless you can give me a reliable classical piece of writing saying they absolutely never showed any part of their bodies exposed while in battle then I have no reason to listen to your ignorant tirades! I tried to be respectful but all you did is insult my intelligence on the subject. Next time you reply make sure you have some actual proof!
Here's my proof(and many more upon request):
http://server3.uploadit.org/files/neoptolemus-hoplite.jpg
This is a hoplite, probably an ekdromon(sp?) who only bore a shield and a helmet with a sword. They couldn't have added clother to it because it's part of teh wall therefore it wouldn't have been impossible and unnecessary to add cloths on him.
http://server2.uploadit.org/files/neoptolemus-hoplite2.jpg
Ok I know he's wearing a skirt(or whatever it's called) but you can still his dickie which means it really didn't matter if they covered ot or not.
Also I can find thousands of pottery images depicting naked warfare. There's nothing wrong with nudity!
Here is a site you may find interesting and fun, Byzantine Prince.
http://www.heroichomosex.com/hero/combat.html
With regards to nudity, we will depict only those warriors who actually fought nude, as nude. We recognize that no matter how silly it may be to some, others will find this distasteful, so we will probably use alpha channels to add/remove a loincloth for those units (or unit, the Gaesatae, the only one for now) and then provide a download for those who wish to remove this loincloth.
Byzantine Prince
02-21-2005, 23:25
I don't see what sex has to do with the nudity. I know you are trying to be humorous but it's not really that funny seeing as how it's true that they did fight wearing no clothes.
I agree with you. Theres´s nothing wrong with nudity! Gaesetae should be fully naked in the game as history tells it.....
....Still, the point remains, if either Greeks fought naked or not. It could be argued that these are all artistic depictions of heroic scenes. And Attic vases generally represented Heroic themes such as Homer´s Iliad or the Persian Wars.
BTW: Who has a problem with the Gaetsae being depicted as naked? And why not the other way around, people who want a loincloth, get it! I like to believe that most of the world hasn´t turned conservative. This is really bugging me. :furious3:
Teleklos Archelaou
02-21-2005, 23:29
Ah yes. How ignorant of us. Now if we could only include the giants and lions and serpents in those battles too. And why not!? They're on those images, right! ~;)
Byzantine Prince
02-21-2005, 23:31
Once scholars had admitted that aspects of Greek homosex might be best understood by reference to practices among more "primitive" warrior cultures, they could also begin to look at the ritual aspect of Greek warfare, and how much closer it was to primitive practices of war than modern, and in so doing begin to admit that nude combat may well have been common.
This is from the website.
http://www.heroichomosex.com/hero/heroimages/lakonwarrior1.jpg
This is a Lakonian Spartan hoplite
No, ignore the sex part, I thought you would find it useful in supporting your argument that the Greeks fought nude. ;)
Byzantine Prince
02-21-2005, 23:37
Thanx. I know the sex part is kind of stupid but the fact is that most schollars know that ancient Greeks fought nude. Read the Osprey books as well. Lakonians especially only wore armor and cloak which they took off when in battle.
How about the Romans? They have lots of nude statues too. Should we make some Romans with dangling bits?
Why should I be forced to get a patch for a loincloth? The NORMAL thing is to NOT be ofended by naked images of men.
It has nothing to do with normal. We can please everyone, and we will. I don't see the problem. It isn't as if this will be a huge download, just one skin.
It´s a matter of principle. Why not the other way around? Is there any valid argument supporting this?
Byzantine Prince
02-21-2005, 23:47
Yeah the modders could easily develop alternate skins for units that are 'controvertial'. I don't think it'll be that bgi of a deal compared to how much work they've done so far.
BTW great job guys. ~:grouphug:
The principle is we see this mod as a mod for everyone, and including enough information that it could be used as an educational tool. We won't be including controversial things as we would prefer that the mod be ready for use by ANYONE as-is, and anything deemed controversial will be available is a small download.
In any event, we're not forcing anyone to download anything. They can do so of their own free will, or not do so, including the finished mod. We're providing it in this format with the associated download because that is what we want to do, and that really is the only argument we need to make.
I was expecting a "dont download it, then" kind of response. Guess I got it. I was trying to make a point, although apparently, no one agrees with me.
Byzantine Prince
02-22-2005, 00:04
I thought you were being sarcastic ~;) .
I was expecting a "dont download it, then" kind of response. Guess I got it. I was trying to make a point, although apparently, no one agrees with me.When you make the argument on "principle," what do you expect? Making the mod is based on our principles, not anyone elses. We've explained our principles, and the choice is always to accept what we are creating, or to not accept it. Why would you expect anything but this?
Edit: Lots of things are up for debate, with regards to EB. The historicity of various units, or arms, or armor, will always be debated. If someone presents a convincing argument using sources, that person outside of the mod team can get things changed. Likewise, the location of a city, a river, or other questions of geography are another common topic of debate.
However, our principles are not up for debate. In this, we choose to act a certain way, and the argument is not so much "if you don't like it, don't download it," it is more "we chose to do it this way for the following reasons, which you may not agree with but others of our audience do, and so this is how we will do it, and you can choose to accept that method, or not."
I doubt anyone on our mod team would ever simply state "don't download it if you don't like it" without giving an explanation, or reason. And many things are up for debate. Thus just happens to be one that is not.
Uhh... I hate to sound like a pervert, but...
What about the naked women that the Gauls sometimes employed against the Romans as a way of detering their will to fight?
I read in "The Celts" that Vercingiteroix employed topless Gaul women to display themselves on the rampants of Gergoiva (spelling) as a way of detering Caesar's legions. This indicates that the Gauls had no issues with using members of the finer sex to deter the enemy.
There should be some type of Gaul unit with lightly armed naked women who "scare" infantry elephants and chariots do.
Byzantine Prince
02-22-2005, 00:48
Turin, is EB included what you just described that would make the "nude women" both the funniest and most disturbing thing in the whole game. It even goes further then the "minion" attribute generals have ~;) .
Dux Corvanus
02-22-2005, 01:14
Ah yes. How ignorant of us. Now if we could only include the giants and lions and serpents in those battles too. And why not!? They're on those images, right! ~;)
You forgot the tritons and centaurs... ~D
Those half-human entities were common in ancient Greece, given the irrefutable proofs... and they fought naked -maybe for the lack of good special-size taylors... it was lucky for the Greek that Heracles fought in half the battles... ~:eek:
:tongue2:
Byzantine Prince
02-22-2005, 01:17
Hwy as long as you're happy in your bliss... :rolleyes:
Kekvit Irae
02-22-2005, 01:22
I find it funny that most people complain about floppies in video and computer games, but nobody gives a second glance at works of fine art that depict a LOT more than what you will ever see in a game, to include Daggerfall and Battlespire. GTA couldnt hold a candle to them. Games like Mortal Kombat were banned from Wal-Mart, but they freely sold Daggerfall.
Regarding the Superbowl halftime, 99% of the complaints came from an extremist parenting organization (who enjoy looking for scapegoats to shift the blame from their own parental failings). The other 1% were from valid parents and consumers.
Personally, if people are so concerned about floppies flopping around in history, they need to go back to their safe place and let mommy comfort them until they are in their 40s. The rest of us realize that the lack of clothing were often a tactical advantage on the battlefield, from being less restrictive, to having less heat build-up (which was important in summer marching). Nudity has been in human history ever since the first lowly Trekkie stood upright, used tools to hunt with, and became homo-sapien. :tongueg:
Byzantine Prince
02-22-2005, 01:29
Nudity has been in human history ever since the first lowly Trekkie stood upright, used tools to hunt with, and became homo-sapien.
HAHAHAHA! That's is so hillarious. I too think Trekkies are rather lowly creatures.
I am happy at least some people agree with me.
Kaiser of Arabia
02-22-2005, 01:40
Who cares if the nude or cloted version is in the origional release or a patch as long as both are availbe?
Also, with regards to Grecian Nudity.
In the Bronze and Classical age of Greece, some of them, not all, fought nude. However, as it progressed to the year that RTW starts, they didn't fight naked.
Although you can say that still some of them did, not all of them did. There is no way to have non-identical men in a unit so you'd have to chose between Nude or clothed. Fact is, the majority of the greeks were clothed. So, there you go.
Nudity has been around since the first humans emerged, but this is not the point. Of course naked women existed on battlefields, so did rapes, maybe we should create some animations to accurately depict the way some roman soldiers were wasting their time. I just wonder, why are some so anxious to arouse debates over anything that would attract attention?
Whatever. Just forget I said anything.:disappointed:
Who cares if the nude or cloted version is in the origional release or a patch as long as both are availbe?
Also, with regards to Grecian Nudity.
In the Bronze and Classical age of Greece, some of them, not all, fought nude. However, as it progressed to the year that RTW starts, they didn't fight naked.
Although you can say that still some of them did, not all of them did. There is no way to have non-identical men in a unit so you'd have to chose between Nude or clothed. Fact is, the majority of the greeks were clothed. So, there you go.
I think this is the most practical solution.
If anyone doesn't like the Gaesatae being naked just point them at Polybius' eyewitness accounts:
(Polybius, 2nd century BC .)
"The Romans... were terrified by the fine order of the Celtic host, and the dreadful din, for there were innumerable horn -blowers and trumpeters,and... the whole army were shouting their war-cries... Very terrifying too were the appearance and the gestures of the naked warriors in front, all in the prime of life and finely built men, and all in the leading companies richly adorned with gold torcs and armlets."
(Polybius' description of the Battle of Telamon, 225BC)
"The Insubres and the Boil wore their trousers and light cloaks, but the Gaesatae had discarded their garments owing to their proud confidence in themselves... At first the battle was confined to the hill... In this action Galas the Consul fell in the melee fighting with desperate courage, and his head was brought to the Celtic kings... All [the naked Gaesatae] in the leading companies [were] richly adorned with gold torcs and armlets. The sight of them indeed dismayed the Romans, but at the same time the prospect of winning such spoils made them twice as keen for the fight... [Later in the battle,] reduced to the utmost distress... some of [the Gaesatae] in their impotent rage, rushed wildly on the enemy and sacrificed their lives, while others, retreating step by step on the ranks of their comrades, threw them into disorder by their display of faint- heartedness."
And with regard to the images on that naked fighting site I think the most interesting, and compelling proof, was the Persian Cameo
http://www.heroichomosex.com/hero/heroimages/persiancameo2.jpg
No reason for the 'Enemy' to depict naked hoplites unless it was a fairly common actuality
Byzantine Prince
02-22-2005, 02:17
You forgot the tritons and centaurs... ~D
Those half-human entities were common in ancient Greece, given the irrefutable proofs... and they fought naked -maybe for the lack of good special-size taylors... it was lucky for the Greek that Heracles fought in half the battles... ~:eek:
:tongue2:
Yes and don't forget the mermaids. They gave good hand-jobs. :leer:
Big_John
02-22-2005, 02:32
khelvan, since you are releasing a "penis skin" patch, does that mean that you guys might release a "sun cross" skin patch for some of the appropriate shields? or did you guys find a way around the mirroring problem? or do you guys even care about that anymore?
PROMETHEUS
02-22-2005, 02:49
I will make the Gasetae , And they will be Naked , they won't be silly oversized , but normal if someone is asking , and I won't put any veil to cover historicity , someonelse has to if there is a need.....
Gangstaman590
02-22-2005, 03:45
So there will be a patch for covered up gasetae? I am totally for realism and history but nudity is a little far especialy when the skinner details it and makes it stand out. Someone made a nudity mod for the gasetae and it was rediculous. :dizzy2:
i assume this is possible, but you could just add a button for on/off of nudity in the options menu, like CA did with the battle editor thing in the patch.
~:cheers:
The group voted on this - assuming Prometheus is the one to make the Gaesetae, and he doesn't put the loincloth over the floppy bits, someone else will. The original release is going to be covered floppy bits, as our team voted.
It is really simple. Kids play the game. We think this can be an educational mod. We want the mod to be usable in schools. We will provide a patch to make it more historical where appropriate.
As far as the swastika problem goes, I don't know if we had planned on using any units with the symbol any longer. Certainly if we were to make a unit like that, we could have a patch for everyone to enjoy it.
And with regard to the images on that naked fighting site I think the most interesting, and compelling proof, was the Persian Cameo
http://www.heroichomosex.com/hero/heroimages/persiancameo2.jpg
No reason for the 'Enemy' to depict naked hoplites unless it was a fairly common actualityActually, this doesn't follow. The Romans often depicted the Gauls as naked. However, we know that the Gauls had a well organized, well equipped military. This is a common way to denigrate one's opponent, to imply that they are not civilized. The Romans hated the Gauls, and took every opportunity to show them as less than they really were.
The best assumption we can make given the Persian Cameo above is that the Persians were not very fond of the Greeks, not that the Greeks fought nude.
Mouzafphaerre
02-22-2005, 08:26
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Well, well, well... So you want naked warriors eh? You will get!
Sorry khelvan, for giving out confidential stuff, but the people are hungry and somebdy has to feed them.
OK...
The biggest surprise of EB, prematurely revealed:
The naked Celtic Warrior:
(take kids away before scrolling down)
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http://www.thelib.com/gallery/albums/userpics/image001MA11644656-0001.gif
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The_Emperor
02-22-2005, 13:32
Whats this obsession you all have with seeing Naked men on screen??
Sounds a little gay to me... ~D (sorry I couldn't resist!)
Sure some peoples fighting naked is historical, but that doesn't mean I really care about seeing nudity on my screen.
Of course as a compromise between loin-clothness and nudity, you could always make the Gaesetae be naked but have them hold their shields in the way so you can't actively see their dangly bits...
But honestly does the loincloth really bother you that much?
Or do you just want to be able to say "Look at my big barbarian penis!!" (maybe we can add it in as a taunt to replace "stinking rats") ~D
Dux Corvanus
02-22-2005, 16:07
...they will be Naked , they won't be silly oversized , but normal if someone is asking...
No, I was not asking... In fact, I could live without knowing... ugh! Yuck! ~D
I hope those guys don't get too excited about fighting... ~:eek:
Geezz....how old are you? 14?
.....gay.....? :inquisitive:
Byzantine Prince
02-22-2005, 19:22
Spanish men always have a gay side. Haven't you ever seen Bad Education?
Teleklos Archelaou
02-22-2005, 19:26
Here's the other thing about all of this: There is a lot of very serious work going on in EB right now, trying to get this ready so that others can enjoy it. A lot of historical work and graphical work have been done, in addition to stuff I don't even have any idea about or a chance of understanding. If the mod has made a decision as a whole on this one minor point and needs to move on to other things, I don't see why this is still such an issue.
Byzantine Prince:
Lol......actually I was refering to the childish statement of The Emperor (Unless he´s being....welll.....sarcastic? ~;) )
Teleklos Archelaou :
Call it a friendly discussion. ~D
Dux Corvanus
02-22-2005, 19:31
Spanish men always have a gay side. Haven't you ever seen Bad Education?
Please, don't talk about Almodovar's movies. Man, I hate that guy. His movies are tacky and surreal... in an ugly sense. :furious3:
And yes. We all have a gay side. And it always lives in Canada, where it feels more comfortable. BTW, I have not seen the film. It is said that only gay people pays to see it.
How does it end, Prince? :mellow:
Ok, ok. Just kiddin'. ~;)
The_Emperor
02-22-2005, 19:49
Byzantine Prince:
Lol......actually I was refering to the childish statement of The Emperor (Unless he´s being....welll.....sarcastic? ~;) )
Sarcasm was very prevalant in that post of mine... I mean honestly a three page thread with people requesting a unit of barbarians sporting the "All natural look". Do we really care THAT much about the Loincloth?!
(still you didn't answer the question about why you are all so keen to see them "naked") ~;)
Still I can't help but think though the units might end up looking kind of silly on the battlefield, especially with all that Snow in Northern Europe!! (I am guessing there won't be a combat bonus for snow for this unit!) ~D
I can see the Time Commanders puns will by flying around if this goes ahead... "They don't look very hard with a javelin sticking out of them" ~;)
Byzantine Prince
02-22-2005, 20:02
Please, don't talk about Almodovar's movies. Man, I hate that guy. His movies are tacky and surreal... in an ugly sense. :furious3:
And yes. We all have a gay side. And it always lives in Canada, where it feels more comfortable. BTW, I have not seen the film. It is said that only gay people pays to see it.
How does it end, Prince? :mellow:
Ok, ok. Just kiddin'. ~;)
I'm seeing it today actually. So if only gay people pay to see it, then I guess all I have to do is sneak in and I won't be considered gay for watching it, right? That makes sense.
It's not really about gay people, it's about how priests abused some kids and now they are gay weather they like it or not.
EB strives to be historicaly correct, and, to me, it´s what makes this mod so great. If these guys were naked in real-life, they should be so in the game as well.
You say do you really care THAT much about having a loincloth, I say do you really care THAT much if there´s a very small digital penis in your screen? I don´t. Guess that makes me gay.
To me the discussion resides in wether this mod looses some of its character, in order to appease the new emergent conservative thinking that seems to be so spread like wildfire. The original game was criticized for losing strategic depth, AI potential and other important features in order to attract younger, more casual players. Don´t let a similar thing happen here. Please.
Personaly I think it´s a good idea to deter these kid players from playing the game. It doesn´t lower the standart of games, and more mature kids will play it anyway and refrain from using those puns, that I must confess, haven´t even thought of. Maybe there´s something wrong with me.
Let´s be realistic, this will be more a mod for a game than an eductional tool. If someone wants to educate with it (in my belief, it´ll be the minority) then they should get the refered patch (even if in my personal belief, naked men aren´t offensive to kids and they won´t become gay because of it).
*one snmall point. Education is not just learning languages, ciences and history. It´s about tolerance, being inteligent and rational about things, being able to make judgements on their own, not pre-conceived ideas. Espeacially not the ideas of those old-farts which now control educational systems worldwide. Society is changing. Get used to it.
sharrukin
02-22-2005, 20:57
There is no point to deliberately offend people! We do not need to agree with someone to treat them with decency and respect. The Suncross, which would latter be called the Swastika, is offensive to some people for very good reason. It is also illegal in Germany. Nudity is held by some to be a personel, not a public matter and so is offensive to some people as well. It too is illegal in many countries.
We have those who would be offended at the inclusion of the Suncross.
We have those who would be offended at the inclusion of Nudity.
We have those who would be offended at the inclusion of Neither.
We have those who would be offended at the inclusion of Either.
You are in the second category, certainly and possibly the third.
Why should we choose to deliberately offend people when we can easily avoid doing so? This is not a matter of principle but a point of common courtesy.
Sarcasm wrote:
*one snmall point. Education is not just learning languages, ciences and history. It´s about tolerance, being inteligent and rational about things, being able to make judgements on their own, not pre-conceived ideas. Espeacially not the ideas of those old-farts which now control educational systems worldwide. Society is changing. Get used to it.
Oh, don't give me any of that tolerance and political corectness crap. Even the expression is an oxymoron.
Education is about languages, sciences and history. If not for learning languages, you would have never heard of Plato, Aristotle or Plinius, if not for sciences you'd still believe the earth is flat and gay people were perverted by the devil, and without history you would still have to listen to your mamma's stories revendicated from community myths to explain "objectively" why you're nothing more than a by-product of capitalism. Prophets would rose and books would be burned, if not for sciences and history and translations that share all of these between people.
Tolerance, inteligence and reason depend on common sense, and that you don't win, you are born with it. But all these are enhanced only through education.
Society is changing; that's the understatement of the last eon. Of course is changing, because people that compose it change. But only educated people will see if it's changing for better or for worse.
In my opinion, all arguments in this thread were made. We know your opinion, you know ours. We made our decision. The thread must be closed.
Sharrukin:
Actually I´m not offended by neither. I´m inteligent enough to separate things from context. Swastikas are not Nazi symbols in this context, nor nudity is offensive/pronography in this context.
Frankly I think it´s reductive, to consider people will be ofended like this.
Nowake:
First of all political correctness is what is making those loincloths be the standard and not the naked version.
Don´t even try to imply that languages,ciences, etc... aren´t important to me. And BTW, common sense is subjective, as clearly shown by this thread and one of the reasons laws were made.
I´m currently not trying to change your minds. You clearly have made yours up, as have I. However there is still a discussion going on, if the threads dies, then it dies, closing it because you want it closed is wrong (even if you have the power to do so).
:end:
Simple logic tells us, in the absence of other factors (which there are many), that we should take the loincloth route:
- Nudity is illegal in some countries. Loincloths are not illegal.
- Swastikas are illegal in some countries. The absence of swastikas is not illegal.
- People are more likely to be offended by nudity than by the absence of it.
- People who play this game come from cultures where nudity and/or swastikas are illegal. No one comes from cultures where the absence of these things is illegal.
- People who play this game come from cultures where nudity can be offensive. No one (that I am aware of) comes from a culture where loincloths are commonly considered offensive.
Orda Khan
02-22-2005, 21:51
.........And may I suggest that ends the discussion?
A group of dedicated people are making something that many will benefit from......gratis. Rather than say 'thank you' there is a three page round and round thread!!!
.......Orda
Sarcasm wrote:
First of all political correctness is what is making those loincloths be the standard and not the naked version
You wrote we should be tolerant. Basically, what you are now writting reads that us beeing politically corect also makes us intolerant.
Don´t even try to imply that languages,ciences, etc.. aren´t important to me
You also wrote that sciences, languages and history are not the most important part of education. But what you have is a deformed overview over things: sciences, language and history shape the part of education you were refering too. These are the most important. If you would not have these, you would not have had the chance to get the education that you got..
And BTW, common sense is subjective, as clearly shown by this thread and one of the reasons laws were made.
I can take a hint, no worries ~:) Nevertheless, it is common sense that laws originated from. And it took some time for the right fairly full of common sense people to get to power and impose those laws.
However there is still a discussion going on, if the threads dies, then it dies, closing it because you want it closed is wrong (even if you have the power to do so).
You are corect here, and receive my apologies, my sugestion was misplaced. However, what worries me is that people seem to try for 3 pages now to transform this into a central problem of EB. Thing which is clearly lacking in common sense.
Don´t try to distort what I wrote. With politicaly correct, I meant the institutionalized conservative view of the world, and you know it.
You can see different views of common sense everytime you enter a civil court. Laws were made so that there is as little room for subjective common sense in rullings. You are only partially right about this, and the part you are, I never contested.
A person can be ignorant about science, history and even illiterate, and and be inteligent enough to understand that allowing people to make their choices and giving them the benefit of the doubt is the right thing to do.
No one ever said this was a pivotal point in EB, which is not the same thing as saying this shouldn´t be discussed.
I will try and refrain from posting here before I have a lets-kill-the-left-wing-commie-liberal-bastard lynch mob on my doorstep. Cheers ~:cheers:
[QUOTE=Sarcasm]I meant the institutionalized conservative view of the world, QUOTE]
Massive generalisation...
[QUOTE=Sarcasm]I meant the institutionalized conservative view of the world, QUOTE]
Massive generalisation...
I didn´t mean the entire world has a conservative view. I meant institutionalized view is on a global prespective.
....not very articulate today.....
We're not going to change the world with EB. EB is not some sort of social commentary. Simply put, it is better for our audience to do it the way we have planned. We have no desire to take an activist role.
Dux Corvanus
02-23-2005, 00:09
It's not really about gay people, it's about how priests abused some kids and now they are gay weather they like it or not.
Yeah, I knew. I was just joking. ~:)
As for nudity, I'm with Khelvan. I won't be scandalized for some punks showing their no-bone-legs, but not showing won't scandalize me either. On the other way, if someone could find nudity offensive, we should aim to satisfy the more people, the better.
The 'real nudity' patch solution seems rather fair to me.
After all, we have to use 'uniformed' units, and that isn't too historical either. Before the modern era, every fighting man used the equipment he could make, steal or afford, and the look and weapons of soldiers in the very same unit ranged from fairly similar -Romans and Greek- to mainly personal and heterogeneous -most armies.
Zalmoxis
02-23-2005, 00:16
Spanish men always have a gay side. Haven't you ever seen Bad Education?
Do you ever keep the same Avatar for more than a day?
The Panda Centurion
02-24-2005, 06:36
The Celts and other barbarians fought naked because:
1. It showed off their personal bravery.
2. It gave them an advantage in the fact that a spear sticking into their leg would not take in a piece of cloth that would then fester and cause infection.
3. It terrified and unnerved their Mediterranean enemies.
The Greeks and Romans sculpted statues of naked people because:
1. They thought nakedness looked heroic, NOT because they actually fought that way.
The Greeks and Romans competed in sports naked because:
1. It gave them more freedom of movement.
2. The situations they would be in would not be life-threatening, and they therefore were obliged to brandish their floppily-doppiles as much as they wanted.
I hope this clears things up a bit for you all. ~:)
I really can't see why nakedness is such a touchy subect in Western culture, it's baffling. In my opinion, there is absolutely NO reason why EB should sacrifice historical accuracy to satisfy the mewling of some pathetic, guilt-ridden Puritan grannies (no offense to any Puritans here).
- Panda
I can't believe that after all of the explanation, people still associate our choice with some sort of social statement or exhibition of ethics.
If the mod will be illegal for ANY of our intended audience, which includes children, we will provide that portion as an optional download. Period. WE DON'T CARE WHY IT IS ILLEGAL/OFFENSIVE. THAT IT WOULD NOT BE ALLOWED FOR OUR AUDIENCE IS ENOUGH FOR US, AND THAT SHOULD DAMN WELL BE ENOUGH FOR ALL OF YOU. END OF STORY.
You will get your optional download. Feel free to whinge/argue this in some other place.
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