View Full Version : Equies- Better armour?
I was just wondering if you were going to make the equite's better armoured (Say Triarii-like). This is because the equites were the nobility amongst the army and therefore it would make sense for them to look like the richest as well. My apologises if this has already been boguht up.
All of our units are painstakingly researched. The early Roman horse will be armed in the Greek fashion, with a short muscled cuirass, round shield, sword and spear.
The_Emperor
02-21-2005, 12:04
The Equites may have been little rich boys, but they were not good Cavalry... Nowhere near in the same league as the Triarii.
The Romans employed foreign cavalry into their armies for a very good reason, because their own cavalry was very poor.
cunctator
02-21-2005, 19:23
The Equites may have been little rich boys, but they were not good Cavalry... Nowhere near in the same league as the Triarii.
The Romans employed foreign cavalry into their armies for a very good reason, because their own cavalry was very poor.
Their own cavalry was very limited in numbers, (because they have been erecruites amang the limited upper class of republican society) so the romans were forced rely mainly in their sociis cavalry. I`ve found no reason why they should be so horrible. Of course they were no match for horseculture cavalry like the numidians, but why should they be worse than the casual cavalry of the time?
The_Emperor
02-21-2005, 20:22
Of course they were no match for horseculture cavalry like the numidians, but why should they be worse than the casual cavalry of the time?
That depends on what you mean by "casual cavalry" if you mean the same as most of the surrounding cultures I would disagree.
If you compare the Pre-Marian Roman Equites to the cavalry fielded by other cultures surrounding Rome during this time, you'll find that the other cultures were always the superior horsemen... The Gauls, Iberians, Greeks, and Numidians all fielded far superior cavalry to the Roman Equites.
For Rome the infantry of the legion were the ones who really decided the outcome of battles, Equites were limited to scouting and screening the flanks. Eventually Rome realised its glaring weakness and drafted in better Cavalry from those cultures.
Personally I think that CA certainly got the unit stats wrong, and the Equites should have all the raw power of those "Macedonian Light Lancers" who die so well it hurts!
cunctator
02-21-2005, 21:13
In R:TW the complete roman cavalry is certainly overmodelled. They can defeat almost every comparable unit head on. The actual stats of the greek cavalry should be enough for the equites, with much higher upkeep. With casual cavalry I mean none elite units of comporable societys like carthage or the greeks.
And undoubtly the legions were the backbone of the roman army and the conquerers of the ancient word. I only want to save the honour of the equites, who were not crap on horses. Their number was very limited so they could never play a decicive role without additional allied cavalry as support. But that says nothing about the abilitys of the individual eques.
According to Polybius the roman cavalry was able to inflict heavy looses on hannibals cavalry.( Book15/10 also the ultimately lost).
And at Zama the roman/Italian cavalry under Gaius Laelius placed on the left wing by scipio was able to defeat their carthaginian counterparts.
There are plenty of instances where Gallic cavalry more poorly armed and armored than the Equites defeated them soundly. It is not only a question of size and tactical utilization, but of individual skill as well. The Equites will not be useless, but they will be properly represented as secondary, at best.
I at no point mentioned the quality of the cavalry, mearly that they should have better armour as they were "Rich boys".
No worries. Nor did I, until others did. It is a concern, as we do have to make sure that not only are the units equipped properly, but have the proper stats to put them in line with other units. The reality is that other factors contributed to the Romans no longer using native/allied cavalry from the peninsula, but one major factor was the realization that these troops did not match up well at all compared to foreign cavalry.
khelvan, you mentioned that the equite will be given muscled breastplates...
Shouldn't it be chainmail instead?
By this time the Romans had abandoned much of their former "Greekness" with respect to their military. The phalanx was abandoned, the arms and armor were changed, chainmail replaced bronze breastplates, scutums replaced hoplons. For the cavalry, this should be no different. It was well know among the Romans that Celt chainmail was superior to Greek breastplates both in terms of protection and flexibility.
I have no hard evidence to back up my claim, just some logical reasoning. And again, I have to vouch for their quality. They were not the best of horsemen, but compared to their civilized counterparts, they were not that bad. Perhaps instead of cutting their stats, a better solution is to have fewer of them per unit. The same should be done with the triarii, their maniples were only half the size of that of principe and hastati.
Primary sources give the equites a muscled cuirass around the time of Pyrrhus. Later, around the Punic wars, they have mail. At the start of our campaign they would still be armed as the Greeks were. I don't have my notes as to who noted which, but I think Dionysius of Halicarnassus was the one who talked about them c. Pyrrhic Wars.
Oh so the EB campaign starts way before the first Punic War?
How will you model the change in armor then?
I think there was some discussion around the economic, building system, but if nothing was changed, it could be a matter of building more advanced buildings or maybe town growth. I don´t know if its possible to trigger such things based on dates (marius reforms cant) but it could be a possibility.
There will be a succession of units that reflect changes in units over time, as you build higher-level barracks and such. It would be nice to be able to add our own events and such to trigger new unit availability, but we can't, so we must use what is given to us...
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