New thread for centralized data access.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Basically this is a thread to hold the revised facrtion lists and all unit lists and other material that is ready or nearly ready to be used as final work for the game.
If anyone would like the unit lists just ask here and I can e-mail or pm you the 13 pages of unorganized work.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Basically this is a thread to hold the revised facrtion lists and all unit lists and other material that is ready or nearly ready to be used as final work for the game.
If anyone would like the unit lists just ask here and I can e-mail or pm you the 13 pages of unorganized work.

Edit: Faction list ready for revision:
Castilians
Danes
English
French
Golden Horde
Hapsburgs
Hungarians
Mamluks
Moors
Polish
Russians
Turks
Venetians
Papacy
Tuetonic Knights
Burgundy
Milano
Naples
Scotland

May Add:
Poland

Removed Factions:
Argonese
Knights of St. John
Knights of the Dragon
Italians
Note there are 20 slots, plus rebels.

I know this is not the most up to date list, but I want to get rid of all the confusion and start from the beginnning again. I believe we wanted to get rid of the Knights of the Dragon, have 2-3 Italian factions instead of Knightly orders and have 2 German factions. Now we can start to shuffly them about and ensure that we do not make a mistake.

[Yggdrasill]

Allright my comment on the factions...

No Aragonese...why? Well, Spain was united from 1485 onwards (and for brief periods even before that) and having two Spanish factions would, as years pass, be unrealistic. Try imaginig the 16th century face of Europe without Spain, instead having Castille or something...dumb. Instead get Burgundy, that dukedom disappeared entirely by chance and could have been a major player in the 16th century. .

Change Italians to Milano.
We don't need Order of the Dragon (very minor players, and not even a state/knightly order but more of a loose aliance of Wallachian nobles for a brief period of time), and the Hospitallers, although interesting, would be a waste of a slot. Too few provinces, too weak, only interesting as pirates/corsairs, and with the ships being what they are in RTW...

So in thier place, we put in Naples (so we get three Italian factions + Pope). We keep the Teutonic order. Optionally, instead of Naples, we put in Aragon-(Naples included as a part of it), or a third German faction. But this would create a problem with cultures.

In place of the other knightly order we put...either Sweden or another German faction. I vote for the German faction even though Sweden will be missed.

Also, chances are that an inevitable expansion shall bring many improvements to the gameplay...maybe even additional faction slots. Something to think about.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

So now we have 3 "Papal minions" and two Germanic factions?

[Ignoramus]

I still think we should have 3 German factions. Saxony, Bavaria, and Hapsburgs. But if 2, Saxony and Hapsburgs. Also DEFINATELY change Aragon to Naples!

[Uesugi Kenshin]

I forgot to remove them, even though they were on my list of removed factions.....

I counted the factions in RTW and got 21. I believe this is right and so we have the possibility of adding three more factions. This list may not contain some that we have decided to add so could everyone please take a close look at it. I can then add Saxony.

Are we keeping Tuetonic Knights?

[Ignoramus]

My suggestion for the 3 extra added factions:

Saxony
Bavaria
Wallachians(after all, if we didn't have them it wuld leave the Balkans empty)

I also think we should change Teutonic Knights to Sweden, as they were had one of the best armies in the 1500's.

The faction list would then look like:

Bavaria
Burgundy
Castile
Danes
English
French
Golden Horde
Hapsburgs
Hungarians
Mamluks
Milan
Moors
Naples
Papacy
Polish
Russians
Saxony
Sweden
Turks
Venetians
Wallachians

How do think that looks?

[Ignoramus]

Right, this is my final suggestion: Change Teutonic Knights to the Gaelic Confederation! Keep the rest as above.
I mean the list in my last post.

Ignoramus.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Before I institute the suggested changes I would like to hear everyone elses opinions. So far i agree with hyim, although it may be difficult to fit the Gaelic Confederation in as their units are very very different from everyone elses. But if we could I think it is a great idea.

[Saranalos]

Yes I think everyone should say what they think about this, as I am not the best historian I wont comment on this..... ~:) ~D ~:) ~D ~:)

[cegorach]

I also think we should change Teutonic Knights to Sweden, as they were had one of the best armies in the 1500's.

I suggest not to do it cause the Order was extremely important at that time in its part of Europe ( e.g. Tannenberg 1410 and then untill 1525 or even - as Livonian Confederacy - to 1561).

Sweden was important, but after 1600, so if you need to choose the Order would be far better choice.

Regards Cegorach ~:cheers:

[Uesugi Kenshin]

As per Ranika's advice if we added a Scottish or Irish faction it should be Scotland and there is no historical accuracy of a Gaelic Confederation, though it would be nice.....

[Saranalos]

As per Ranika's advice if we added a Scottish or Irish faction it should be Scotland and there is no historical accuracy of a Gaelic Confederation, though it would be nice.....

Thats no reason why we shouldnt have the Irish in as a faction saying its ahistorical is rubbish because everything about the game is ahistorical the Irish and scotland wernt united in real life but in the game who's to say? The whole point of a game is that something different can happen every time. :bow:

[Ignoramus]

I agree, if we make exact to everything, it would spoil the gameplay. Also, Scotland and Ireland were so similar it seems silly only to have one and not both of them united as one. And so there wasn't a Gaelic Confederation, we can't make everything 100% accurate and I think it is very good idea!

[Ranika]

By this period, the Irish and Scots were hugely different; the Irish were an amalgam of mostly Gaelic and Nordic culture with Norman influences, and the Scots were a mash of Gaelic, Nordic, Pictish, Norman, Saxon, and Angle influences. They didn't think of themselves as the same people by this time; it's pure fantasy to think such a confederacy would ever occur by this period. The last time the Irish and Scots thought of themselves as remotely similar was when Robert the Bruce sent a letter to the Ui Neill telling him that 'our nation' was in trouble; however, the Ui Neill snubbed him anyway, feeling that 'our nation' was an incredibly rude statement, because the Ui Neill did not feel they were part of the Scots (nor did any of the other Irish). They only accepted aide from the Bruce because of threat of invasion from England.

Irish and Scottish armies were composed of different types of soldiers, they wore different types of clothing, they spoke (and speak) two different languages, etc. The only thing they have in common is a common ancestor. This is like saying the English should be confederated with Germans. Many of them had the same ancient ancestors, so why shouldn't they be a confederation?

[Ignoramus]

Maybe so, but some Scots did speak Gaelic. Also, this is the only way to get them in. We shouldn't leave out one of the two, so combine them, maybe a little ahistorical, but unavoidable.

[Ranika]

Why is it not alright to ignore one and not the other? The Scots at least had a country. I'm from Ireland, but, I don't see the appeal of the Irish in this period unless they were an indepedent, single province faction, and there was space for them. The Scots are a plenty workable faction by themselves though, without the need to be propped up by being combined with a foreign country. The Scots were (vaguely) stable, had their own government for the entire country (which still paid lip service to clan chieftans, but they were still under the rule of one), and were condensed enough to be a faction on their own. The Irish were in a state of anarchy with Gaelic and Normano-Gaelic lords trying to make a grab at land and establish a kingdom. In game terms, Ireland would be rebels; they have no major leader, they have no centralized authority, in this period. It's just as well to make the faction Scotland, and allow them to get Irish regional units in Ireland.

Also, Gaelic is colloquialism; there are three main Goidilic languages; Irish, Scottish (which is called Gaelic in English casually), and Manx. They're languages from the same family, but they aren't the same language. I can speak both Irish and Scots Gaelic, but before I learned Scottish, at best, I could feel my way through it due to similar sounding words (and I can do the same thing with my French and Spanish, which I don't speak; still not the same languages but I can feel through it a bit if I take it slow).

[Ignoramus]

I do agree that Scotland was much more stable than Ireland. But then Scotland would only get one province if you look on the region map.

[Ranika]

Has to be a way to cut it in half. Divide the lowlands and highlands, maybe; that was a very real division, and can be fit, I believe.

[Ignoramus]

Send a PM to Uesugi Kenshin, he will organize the fixing of it.

[Ignoramus]

Right, I now vote Scotland!

[Ignoramus]

Ranika. Why don't you take over Scotland's unique units? And cities too.

[Ranika]

PMed him. I'll get on the Scots soon if it'll help. I think that's the best alternative, but I'd have a few Irish regional units;

Galloglaidh; they were still used, but they were technically mercenaries, so it might be wiser to just have them as mercs, and they did work for others but the Irish. Also, they favored a two-handed long axe, not a greatsword, in most cases. They used the Sparth axe (a 6 foot pole with an axehead on it), and dressed in chain armor and iron helmets. They originated in around 1200 AD as the need for heavy infantry climbed faster than Irish kings could train their own. They hired these mercenaries from the Hebrides. The name itself means 'foreign warrior'

Kernbannal; spearmen/lochaber axe men, they worked four months out of the year, and traded off, they were peasants, they wore padded coats or leather, and marched in a formation akin to a phalanx (similar to what Scottish pikemen did, but with shorter weapons, so not as good); Irish light infantry

Omacach; swordsmen with flintlocks, they'd fire a shot and charge, the earlier version, the Cleighcach (Cleighnaght), are just swordsmen, these would be like Irish medium infantrymen, with leather brigadines and large wood shields, with longswords, or Irish-hilt swords.

Lewnaght; THESE are two-handed swordsmen, not the Galloglaidh; Lewnaght used the forerunner to the 'slopping quillons' style sword of the Scots; the lewing sword is bigger, longer blade, rounded off tip (it's too long to thrust with properly), and a 'four-hand' grip, a massive grip that accomodated numerous hand positions to utilize the very complicated martial art used for the lewing sword; these swords date as early as the 4th century, and were used by the Irish into the Victorian conquests, and one even showed up during the Anglo-Irish war in the early 1900s; Brian Boru's sword was a lewing sword. Very heavy infantry, in chain armor and iron helmets

Hobilar; Irish medium-to-heavy infantry. Irish hobilar were different from English or French Hobilar; they were nobles or wealthy aristocrats; they wore good quality chain armor, iron helmets, swords or hand axes, Irish lances (which are used in an overhand fashion), and javelins, and rode small ponies (larger horses have trouble on Irish soil over long distances)

Taghhoba; later hobilar, wore padding instead of chain, iron helmets, and used rifles and longswords or Irish sabres; essentially the same as hobilar, but with a better ranged attack, and poorer armor

There are a ton others, but this gives, I think, a fair grab bag of Irish soldiers for regional units; three types of infantry, and two types of cavalry.

[Saranalos]

Why is it not alright to ignore one and not the other? The Scots at least had a country. I'm from Ireland, but, I don't see the appeal of the Irish in this period unless they were an indepedent, single province faction, and there was space for them. The Scots are a plenty workable faction by themselves though, without the need to be propped up by being combined with a foreign country. The Scots were (vaguely) stable, had their own government for the entire country (which still paid lip service to clan chieftans, but they were still under the rule of one), and were condensed enough to be a faction on their own. The Irish were in a state of anarchy with Gaelic and Normano-Gaelic lords trying to make a grab at land and establish a kingdom. In game terms, Ireland would be rebels; they have no major leader, they have no centralized authority, in this period. It's just as well to make the faction Scotland, and allow them to get Irish regional units in Ireland.

Thats the attraction of it trying to forge a kingdom with masses of rebels on every side it would give the players who find the game too easy a challenge. I'm not for a Gaelic Confederation but having Ireland in the game would be quite hard because you have to forge your empire out of 1 province. And I think the scots could be rebels with quite large and strong armies.

[Ignoramus]

But think about Scotland. Only 2 provinces and England to the South! Also, they would have as poor economy. Now's that's a big challenge!
Anyway, Rebel are easy to beat!

[Saranalos]

Not if you are fighting with peasants and basic swordsmen there not.
Plus I always wanted to see Ireland in as a faction it would be extremely hard and fun GO IRELAND

[Ignoramus]

I know, but we can't chuck out any other faction just to fit Irealnd in. Also, you can BRIBE the Rebels so easily!

[Uesugi Kenshin]

I will pm Eastside immediately so he can make Scotland two provinces. Too bad Ireland will not be in, but maybe we can put them in Fuedal if we get to it and still want to do it.

[Ignoramus]

Yes, that's a good idea.

[Yggdrasill]

1. Carthage = Spain (not Castille, Spain)
2. Numidians = France
3. Egypt = Burgundy
4. Spain = Habsburgs
5. Gaul = English
6. Germans = Danes
7. Dacia = Hungarians
8. Schythians = Poland-Lithuania
9. Thrace = Russia (Muscovy)
10. Greeks = Golden Horde
11. Pontus = Turks
12. Armenia = Moors
13. Parthians = Mamluks
14. Britons = Pope
15. Seleucids = Venice
16. Senate = Milano
17. Julii = Naples
18. Brutii = Teutonic Order
19. Scipii = ???


Note - this is not listed according to cultures

Where are the factions 20 and 21? I think you miscalculated! So all of this is really moot, since we only have one faction slot free, and most likely it will go to a second German faction. Although we could give it to Scotland, but imagine the whole area of HRE with only one faction (Habsburgs) and everything else rebels.
Even so we are ignoring such important factions like Tamerlane and his successors, various North African kingdoms, Qara and Aq Qoyunlu Turks (rivals to the Ottomans, major player in today's Iraq), Georgia, Moldavia and Wallachia, various Greek provinces, Sweden. And with only 1, perhaps two German factions... I can't believe you are seriously considering adding both Ireland and Scotland... Scotland perhaps, it's a trade off, but really no more.

[Ignoramus]

Teutonic gets replaced by Scotland. Scipii by Wallachians. and The last slot for Saxony.

Oh BTW, you forgot Macedon. ~;)

[Yggdrasill]

Teutonic gets replaced by Scotland. Scipii by Wallachians. and The last slot for Saxony.

Oh BTW, you forgot Macedon. ~;)


Teutonics are a must. No way around it. . Scipii is the last slot, so add Scotland as Scipii and the second German faction as Macedon. Do not remove Teutonic Order. Just look at the map - what is Poland going to face - rebels? Teutons were an active power until 1460s, and well into the 16th century as Livonian confederacy, they eventually became Prussia. You can't get rid of them!

[Ignoramus]

Well, then we could do that.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

I may well have miscounted, I will check when playing RTW next. I counted on my fingers and all.....


I would only put both in if there was room without excluding anybody major. (Ireland and Scotland)

I am going to post a poll to see if people would prefer the more historical Scotland or the more gameplay friendly Ireland.

[Ignoramus]

I still think there are only 20. However, the Poles had a very large kingdom very soon after the start of this mod. They merged with Lithuania and were Huge! I think dropping the Teutoic Knights will be worth it. Espically as we need to somehow depict Germany's disunity.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

I checked in RTW today, sorry I forgot to mention it. There are 20.

[Ignoramus]

Well, in that case drop Bavaria, it is sad but unavoidable.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

I have heard some good agruments for the Tuetonic Knights, could everyone voice their opinions. Sorry it is a bit late here so I do not have the time right at the moment to sort everything out.

[Ignoramus]

Ok!

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Looks like the Tuetonic Knights will remain. Just to let everyone know. Also the Ireland Scotland thing should be wrapped up by the end of the week at the latest.

[Ignoramus]

We really must stop arguing about factions and get on with the Mod. Uesugi, could you make a mini poll, listing which sets of disputed factions we are having. Also, the teutonic Knights became prussia in 1519. I say, we have Saxony and Bavaria if it is possible. Also, how are we going to work the temple thing. All factions only had one god: Christian or Muslim. We could make it like this for Catholic factions:

Monastery, upgrades to Large Monastery, upgrades to Jesuit Monastery, upgrades to Huge Monastery.

Nunnery, upgrades to Convent, upgrades to Large Convent, upgrades to Huge Convent.

Church, upgrades to Large Church, upgrades to Papal Embassy, upgrades to Cathedral. I know it is a bit Medievalish, but their doesn't seem any other way.

Edit: I forgot this. Make the poll message with a list of the definate factions; i.e. France, Englnad Castile etc. Then state how many extra slots we have, and list the disputed factions. Make it multiple choice poll. Then we can easily decide.

[Saranalos]

We are getting on with the mod we are arguing while we work it has not stopped me from trying to make historical battles and Godspetmonkey and two_roses skins and models continue to come out. Only after we have debated the pro's and cons of every side can we decide we dont want the player to be so annoyed after installing the mod that they scream out in frustration because they never got to play the Irish.:duel:

[Uesugi Kenshin]

It is more important to find out what factions we really want. There is still work being done on unit lists, unit models, historical battles and implementation of new features, such as guns and crossbows.

BTW I have recently been wondering this, how many people on or off the team can do some coding or could make an interface? Please state which. Thanks

[Saranalos]

I can't do any coding unfortunately. :embarassed:

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Well by coding I meant unit editting, replacing events, writing events. Stuff like that, anything that has to do with the code, mainly .txt file stuff from what I know. I do not believe we really need to write code, we just need to rewrite what is already put in. If any of that makes sense.

[Saranalos]

Oh I can edit the units all right I thought you meant a programming language. I have messed around with the text files myself and I know a bit about them. ~:)

Like we cant have the custom battles that are already there so I can replace those with any good battlefields on the new campaign map easily enough.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

I have added Scotland. At least this did not happen on St. Patty's day. Even though I am an Atheist all Irish people should celebrate it, just because it now symbolizes Ireland more than Catholocism.
Fell happy historians, you have officially won.

[Saranalos]

Feel sad everyone else for we have just witnessed a waste of a faction...~:(

Just joking, but for the first time ever I didnt celebrate St. Patrick's day,St. Paddys day, St. pattys day, or whatever else name you wish to call it.


Anyway I was wondering about the buildings, is it possible to edit them yet, or are they still unacessable?

[Zharakov]

I live in Russia, no Irish here. ~D



And Scotland is not a waste of a faction.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

I have not heard of any progress occuring anywhere. The guys at SJ think they are going to be able to do it, but I have not heard of them doing it or having a plan of how they will do it. I am going to keep an eye on it and if they do break it I am going to ask how.

[Saranalos]

Yeah I hope they do crack it because without that everyones mods are going to look pretty crap. If it turns out to be impossible to crack it then all major mods will just either have to be disbanded or everyone try and get CA to help.

[Zharakov]

Info about Russia:

Definatly had the largest army in the world at the time.

After Peater the Great, perhaps a Navy that was in the top 10.

And was by far the largest nation in the world.



The Army:

Mostly peasants with spears or axes. But would eventualy move to guns as time went on.

Cavelry was there most devestating feature.

So I would make there army like:

Infantry:
Russ Swordsmen
Russ Spearmen
Russ Heavy Spearmen
Russ Linemen *Gunmen/ spearmen*
Russ Light Troopers *Gunmen*
Russ Troopers *Gunmen*

Cavelry:
Druzhina *police cavelry*
Hussar
Sapophi *Carbiner*
Cossak Lancer
Cossak Carbiner



Russias main colors were White and Green.

There uniforms were Green and there flag was usualy White or Green or Orange.

There symbol was a doubble headed Eagle.


I will find pictures.

[Zharakov]

Here are two Russian flags from the time period.


http://www.patriotic-flags.com/world/easteurope/ru_tzl.gif


http://www.patriotic-flags.com/world/easteurope/RUSS001.gif


The second one is also the modern flag. However, it was also used by the Tzar *Czar, Tsar it really dosnt matter* as a Navel Jack.

[GodsPetMonkey]

Info about Russia:
Russias main colors were White and Green.

There uniforms were Green and there flag was usualy White or Green or Orange.

There symbol was a doubble headed Eagle.


I will find pictures.

It has been decided that uniform colouring wont be forced onto units unlike in other mods, uniforms were very rare in the 15thC and still so in the 16thC, so they will be very rare in this mod (there are exceptions, obviously, eg. my Janissaries all have a similar theme, red coat + blue pants)

If you can provide evidence that Russian armies used particular colours extensively, then I will model that.

[Ignoramus]

I would like to see a good classic pikemen unit, with metal breastplate, metal cone helmet etc. Could you model that soon.

Note: I LOVE your Janissaries, however, it would be nice to see some more European Renaissance units.

[Zharakov]

The only standard unifourms in the 1500's and 1600's were those of the Swordsmen and Cavelry.

Swordsmen wore a metel brest plate and Helmut. They also wore green under shirts and brown pants.

Cavelry usualy wore a Green and Brown shirt and pants occasionaly hats.

Ill try to find pictures.

[GodsPetMonkey]

I would like to see a good classic pikemen unit, with metal breastplate, metal cone helmet etc. Could you model that soon.

Note: I LOVE your Janissaries, however, it would be nice to see some more European Renaissance units.

I loved doing the turkish units, nice change from the european units.

But if you look at those shots of the Tufekci Jani. you can see some parts of an Italian unit I haven't shown off yet.

[Saranalos]

For some reason I always liked playing as the turks in MTW and I really like the models you are doing for the turkish now so I guess my like for them it will carry on. ~D ~D

[Narayanese]

I'd like to be able to play as Sweden, so here a my suggestion: change denmark (not necissarily the name, but the area) to Kalmar Union, made up by the kingdoms of Denmark, Norway (incl Iceland) and Sweden (incl Finland).
The flag is a red cross on a yellow background.

In 1353 queen Margrethe of Denmark by birth and of Norway by marriage, was given support by a large swedish rebellion against the swedish/mecklenburg king, who was defeated, and in 1389 Margrethe was queen of all three kingdoms. In 1397 her grand-nephew, Eric of Pomerania, was made king of all three countries, in a treaty signed in Kalmar, that's where the name comes from.

The first time Sweden broke out of the union was in 1448, but after that the swedish rule shifted between the danish king and various swedish kings, until the 1520s when Gustaf Vasa was made swedish king.
In 1536 Norway was declared a danish province and the kalmar union was formally no more. (source (http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalmarunionen))

This is my suggestion for a faction symbol:http://www.k.kth.se/danielra/kalmar.bmp

[Uesugi Kenshin]

What do the historians think?
I unfortunately do not know enough about this to give an informed opinion, my expertise lies more within the history of the Turks and a smattering of all around information.
If you take the dates it sounds reasonable, we cannot keep people on track with real history after the starting date so why should any of the factions be unlike they were at the starting date?

[Yggdrasill]

I agree entirely

[Narayanese]

Coulld you post more flags. It seems Silver Rusher don't do faction icons anymore, so I was thinking of taking on that part. The background is from his turkish flag.

Russian
http://www.k.kth.se/danielra/rysk.jpg

Castilian
http://www.k.kth.se/danielra/castilian.jpg

[Narayanese]

Right now I'm taking flags from http://www.nationalflaggen.de/flags-of-the-world/index.html, I hope it's accurate.

Golden Horde
http://www.k.kth.se/danielra/goldenh.jpg

Kalmar Union (not finished, I posted it to hear comments)
http://www.k.kth.se/danielra/danflag1.jpg

Is this the right thread for posting faction icons?

[Ignoramus]

Well, I think its ok having the Kalmar Union. Otherwise the Danes would get swallowed up by factions like Saxony, Burgandy, and Teutonic Knights. Yes, I suppose this is the right threas for faction icons.

[Saranalos]

Coulld you post more flags. It seems Silver Rusher don't do faction icons anymore, so I was thinking of taking on that part.

Well Silver Rusher has quit, so you are welcome to take on that part, I'm sure.



Is this the right thread for posting faction icons?

Well, it would probably be better to post them in the screenshots thread but so far they look nice.

[GodsPetMonkey]

I went for a much softer and center based lighting scheme....

http://www.users.on.net/~roehr/RTW/symbol128_julii.jpg

But I'm glad your working on it! Means I don't have to ~D

[Saranalos]

Oh I didnt know you were working on it Godspetmonkey, although I have seen that pic before... I must have forgotten. :embarassed:

[Zharakov]

They look good comrade.

My only suggestion for Russia would be to put a doubble headed eagle on it but it is not nessisary.

Keep up the good work. ~:cheers:

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Looks good Narayanese, are you going to keep at it and finish all the flags? If so I will add that to your job list.

I will attempt to edit the pictures into SR's post.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

SOrry, I don't have an image hoster or anything so I cannot post pictur5es, if someone who has one would like to gather them up and post them that would be helpful, sorry I can't do this. Does anyone have a good free image hoster I could try to get working?

[Narayanese]

Looks good Narayanese, are you going to keep at it and finish all the flags? If so I will add that to your job list.
Yes, I intend to do them all.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Ok, I will add that to your job description.

[Narayanese]

What is the current faction list? Is Saxony/Sachsen in it or not? What about Bohemia/Böhmen? What kingdoms do 'moors', 'mamluks' (egypt?), 'russians' (muscow?) and 'habsburg' (HRE?) control? Which is senate and which are senate minions? I can only see 19 factions in the list in the first post in this thread.

Also have any of you had any thought's on rebels? In vanilla RTW there are 142 rebel types listed. There are 5 different standards and campain map flags (greek, eastern, carthaginian, roman, barbarian) and every faction (except faction 21 of course) has an own rebel faction with its own captain banner graphics (I don't know where in the game those are used). I wonder if it's possible to give all the states who are rebels at starting year their proper names (eg 'Aragon' etc instead of 'Catholic Rebels' or whatever).

[Saranalos]

SOrry, I don't have an image hoster or anything so I cannot post pictur5es, if someone who has one would like to gather them up and post them that would be helpful, sorry I can't do this. Does anyone have a good free image hoster I could try to get working?

You don't need an image hoster if they are already posted just get the link using view source.

[Ignoramus]

Well, the Pope is the Senate: The Papal minions are: Naples, Venice, and Milan(not historical I know, but their is no other sensible way to do it). The missions will be crusades against the Muslim factions paticuarly the Turks if we can manage it.

Saxony is in and controls Northern Germany near Denmark and land near the Czech Republic.
Russia is in and I'm not sure what territory they control ATM.
Teutonic Knights are in:
Mamluks are in and control Egypt and Palestine:
Moors are in and control Southern Spain and most of North Africa.
Hapsburgs are in and control modern-day Austria and most of Switzerland.


Burgundy is also in. It controlled Belgium, Holland, Luxembourg, and prbably parts of Alsace and Lorraine in France.

Poland also is in I think too.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Thanks for explaining that Ignoramus, I will check the faction list just to be sure, but it looks like you have it right.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

I have taken away the newly added label for the new factions, because they have been dropped completely from debate. I believe Poland should be in, does anybody think they should not be included?

Just to let everyone know Tosa has not yet replied to me about FEMTO because his pm box was full, I will try again tonight.

[Ignoramus]

Narayanese: Polish flag has the Polish falcon in white on a maroon red background.

[Narayanese]

So the factions are:
Castile and Leon
Kalmar Union
England (including Aquitaine and east ireland)
France
Golden Horde
Hapsburg
Hungary
Mamluks
Moors (Granada + Fez + Tlemsen + Tunis)
Poland (including Lithuania?)
Russians (Muscow + Novgorod ?)
Ottoman Turks
Venice
Church State (pope)
Teutonic Knights
Burgundy
Milan
Naples
Scotland
Saxony (lower saxony + upper saxony)

suggestion:
Make The Holy Roman Empire like a senate and its minions, the factions it would be made up by are Church State, Saxony, Milan, and Hapsburg.
Also Aragon would be better as faction then Naples, IMHO, as it was bigger (held mallorca, sicily, sardinia and part of iberia) then Naples, not so landlocked, and held naples from 1443.

[cegorach]

Here are two Russian flags from the time period.


http://www.patriotic-flags.com/world/easteurope/ru_tzl.gif


http://www.patriotic-flags.com/world/easteurope/RUSS001.gif


The second one is also the modern flag. However, it was also used by the Tzar *Czar, Tsar it really dosnt matter* as a Navel Jack.

The flag is not accurate ( it is from the XIX th century !),search the web for Ivan III flag, this is all what you need ~;)

[Narayanese]

search the web for Ivan III flag, this is all what you need
Ok, found golden doubleheaded eagle with a horseman in the middle.

[Zharakov]

Me too comrade...

ALso, the tri colord flag is a NAVAL JACK/ENSINE so it probably mwill not work for the time period or game...


Also, the Doubble headed Eagle is the symbol of the Tzar.

[Yggdrasill]

So the factions are:
Castile and Leon
Kalmar Union
England (including Aquitaine and east ireland)
France
Golden Horde
Hapsburg
Hungary
Mamluks
Moors (Granada + Fez + Tlemsen + Tunis)
Poland (including Lithuania?)
Russians (Muscow + Novgorod ?)
Ottoman Turks
Venice
Church State (pope)
Teutonic Knights
Burgundy
Milan
Naples
Scotland
Saxony (lower saxony + upper saxony)

suggestion:
Make The Holy Roman Empire like a senate and its minions, the factions it would be made up by are Church State, Saxony, Milan, and Hapsburg.
Also Aragon would be better as faction then Naples, IMHO, as it was bigger (held mallorca, sicily, sardinia and part of iberia) then Naples, not so landlocked, and held naples from 1443.

It's not Russia, it's Muscovy – this is more accurate so we'll not call them Russia but rather Muscovy or the Duchy of Muscovy. Historically, IIRC, the rulers of Muscovy became emperors of all of Russia only in mid 16th century. So it’s a struggle to bring Novgorod and others into the fold.

The idea about the Senate becoming the Imperial Diet instead of the Pope is a good one. It certainly corresponds more to the reality in those days than the Papal faction (the Roman Senate and the Imperial Diet being essentially the same thing, an assembly of nobles and wealthy citizens that constantly tried to curb the powers of other influental nobles and the emperor, and just like the Roman history, it is the job of great houses to see their line take the throne, defeat their rivals and become emperors of HRE). In fact, I considered suggesting that myself. We could have, as three German factions, Habsburgs, Saxony and Teutonic Order as they all are German factions. However there are problems with this solution.

First of all, in order to put in the Imperial Diet as a faction, we must get rid of one of the factions - because we have to have the Pope. Good luck doing that, we barely agreed on what we have now! I honestly can't say which one to remove as they all seem pretty important. Maybe Milan I don't know.
Second, once and if we do that (remove a faction in order to keep the Papal state), we end up with a situation where the Pope has babies, marries, and finally leaves his Seat to one of his relatives. While this did happen a lot in those days, in fact it was one of the reasons behind the Reformation, it was not a widespread phenomenon and only happened at the turn of the century (1475-1525) and marked the lowest point in the history of the Church. After that, and seeing how they may lose everything unless they get their act together, the future Popes were more... shall we say pious.
Some may like this solution with the Pope as a 'normal' faction but I don't. I'd rather leave out the Pope altogether, since we have no way of simulating religion and reformation in the mod, it might even be the best thing, to abstract it completely (unless CA pulls a rabbit out of a hat and gives us an expansion which concentrates on the final days of the Roman Empire, including the option of accepting Christianity as Constantine the Great did, and we may perhaps be able use this to simulate the 'old' christianity and the 'reformation' - but that still leaves out the orthodox c. and islam). Note may and perhaps being the key words here... But in any case such reshuffling will stir things up and OMG here we go again on the merry-go-round like we did with the Ireland thing... Honestly, I don't think I can take another round of that...

Aragon instead of Naples was an idea considered at one time... But, apart from the problem with the cultures (which are hardcoded and cannot be changed), the idea is that a unified Spain, which was the real powerhouse of the 16th century, sort of like USA today, is vital. Imagine the 16th century with a disunited Spain...something very wrong with that picture! While in the short run it is unrealistic, in the long run it pays off, since we are going to have a unified Spain when it matters the most. Besides, even before the final union with the marriage of Ferdinand and Isabella, Aragon and Castille were unified by a common rulers for brief periods at different points in the 15th century (a personal union inlegal terms). In fact, both Isabella and Ferdinand, IIRC, were descended from one such king - so they were actually distant relatives! :dizzy2:

So I stand like this - Muscovy not Russia, Imperial Diet maybe but you're asking for trouble here, and absolutey no Aragon

Cheers
Ygg

[Narayanese]

I see there's a good reason for not having Aragon.

About HRE: perhaps a faction made up by Rhineland-Palatinate, Bohemia, Saxony and Brandenburg? Those were the electoral states of HRE (after 1356), so it would make a good senate faction. Senate minions would be Milan, Hapsburg, and Church State (I'm not sure how much part of HRE the church state was, but it's the best choice, otherwise it would get conquered). The removed faction would obviously be Saxony (since it would be part of Electoral States).

[Zharakov]

Muscovy... Moskovii.

With the city of Moskva.

The reason. There is no letter "C" or "Y" in the Russian Alphabet. We have Yir and J(Y) but no "Y".

Just a bit of grammer for you. ~D

[Narayanese]

Muscovy... Moskovii.

With the city of Moskva.
I guess that depends on whether english or local names are used when naming factions and cities.

Moskva... that's the way we spell it in swedish, you russians must have borrowed the cityname from us! ~;)

So what are the cultures and rebel factions? If HRE is used as "roman culture", then the rebel faction ought to be:
Muslim Rebels (incl persians)
Orthodox Rebels (incl Novgorod and Greece/Byzans)
Catholic Rebels
Imperial City (or Free City, not sure of the difference, it's a HRE title) (all non-faction states in HRE)

and the cultures:
Muslim (Golden Horde, Moors, Mamluks, Ottoman Turks)
Orthodox (Moscovy/Muskovii, some ottoman cities in europe)
Catholic (lots of factions)
Imperial (Church State, Milan, Hapsburg, Saxony/electoral states)

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Well the reason we did not have the Senate and roman states be the HRE was that it would take up a lot of factions with very little diversity. I believe we have more diversity right now, however, I have been up since four and am tired so I may be addled. We did consider this and the current setup is not set in stone, feel free to make your arguments.

[Ignoramus]

Well, we could make it Germans based like this:

Palentate (sp?) = Senate
Saxony
Bavaria
Hapsburgs


We could have the Pope, but since a lot of the Pope's influence wore off during this time period, I'd chuck it out. No offence to Catholics.

Change Papacy - Bavaria.

Now, it would be good to have Bohemia, so I would suggest replacing the Teutonic Knights with Bohemia. The reasons are below.

1) This Mod would display appropriate unities and disunities. I.e. Italy and Germany are dissunited while England, France, and Spain are unified. I know it is a major reshuffle, but having the Pope control powerful states like Naples and Venice would be wrong in the Renaissance, but ok in a Medieval time frame.

Teutonic Knights are ok, but get smashed in 1411 by the Poles and Lithuanians, and just 100 years later, they dissolve and become the Duchy of Prussia. Bohemia, however, was where John Huss preached and became Protestant for quite a bit. The loss of the Pope is sad, but I think that the Imperial Diet is better. There would be a struggle for dominance in Germany, while Burgundy would be a buffer state between Germany and France. Then France and Spain slog it out against each other.

This creates rivalry between factions. Such as: France v Spain, England v Scotland, Kalmar Union v Saxony, Bavaria v Hapsburgs, Bohemia v Poland, Turks v Mamluks.

This way a massive German civil war breaks out, like the 30 Years War. It would be poor to display Germany with just saxony and Hapsburgs. As I said, the Italians will benefit without the Pope. It will make a massive challenge to any German faction. THe fact is, Saxony, Bavaria, and the Hapsburgs, won't smash each other up because of the Imperial Diet, when they finally do declare war, BANG! The result Massive War!

It would be Grand!

[Zharakov]

I guess that depends on whether english or local names are used when naming factions and cities.

Moskva... that's the way we spell it in swedish, you russians must have borrowed the cityname from us! ~;)

So what are the cultures and rebel factions? If HRE is used as "roman culture", then the rebel faction ought to be:
Muslim Rebels (incl persians)
Orthodox Rebels (incl Novgorod and Greece/Byzans)
Catholic Rebels
Imperial City (or Free City, not sure of the difference, it's a HRE title) (all non-faction states in HRE)

and the cultures:
Muslim (Golden Horde, Moors, Mamluks, Ottoman Turks)
Orthodox (Moscovy/Muskovii, some ottoman cities in europe)
Catholic (lots of factions)
Imperial (Church State, Milan, Hapsburg, Saxony/electoral states)

Technicaly, we did... The Russ were originaly Vikings...

But its spelled in Cyrillic as MOCKBA.


Yea, those factions look good if you ask me.

[Narayanese]

The Electors' Chamber in Frankfurt was the most common place for HRE emperors to be crowned in 1400-1600.

The imperial offices were
Emperor
High Chancelor of Germany
High Chancelor of Italy
High Chancelor of Gaul and Arles
Grand Cup-bearer
High Steward
Grand Marshal
High Chamberlain
(source (http://www.heraldica.org/topics/national/hre.htm))

About protestant rebels:
John Calvin published in 1536 and Martin Luther in 1520. I don't know about other protestant preachers, but it was 16th century all, so it wouldn't be good to have protestant rebels around 1402 and the following years.

[Narayanese]

@Ignoramus
'Count Palatinate' is simply the title for an elector, so there are many different areas all calling themselves Palatinate today.

[Ignoramus]

Well, Huss was preaching in 1440's.

[GodsPetMonkey]

About protestant rebels:
John Calvin published in 1536 and Martin Luther in 1520. I don't know about other protestant preachers, but it was 16th century all, so it wouldn't be good to have protestant rebels around 1402 and the following years.

Much more likely to have something like this

http://www.users.on.net/~roehr/RTW/LutherEvent.jpg

Note, I knocked that up in about 5 minutes, so excuse the crappy text.

[Yggdrasill]

Wow I expected people to tar and feather me for suggesting to get rid of the Pope (note: I know how this sounds in the light of what happened last night please accept my apologies).

The Senate would be the Imperial Diet as they are very close in their modus operandi. Plus, we really would have a massive showdown and a German civil war, which would be great. The only problem is we have to find a way to delay that until around 1550, but that's mostly a question of balancing I think.

The other three German factions would be the Habsburgs and the Saxony. I am in favour of the Teutonic order being the third (they were sort of a German faction) mostly because cutting them out would create a huge hole in the Baltic area. I mean really huge, much bigger than Bohemia or Saxony. That's my reasoning. We could perhaps, nudge the starting date to 1411 - just a small change really and it would give us an excuse to enlarge Poland-Lithuania at the expense of the Teutons so the hole would be smaller.

But beware before you go into major reshuffling - all factions are culture defined and basically you have to replace a German faction with another German faction, Muslim with Muslim etc. If you start rearranging cultures then you're in a world of trouble. So do not go down that road I beg you...

So the question of a third German faction would be open - either Teutons, Bohemia or Saxony. In this case (startind date 1411) I'm split between Bohemia and Saxony, maybe slightly in favour of Saxony. I don't like Bohemia as a major player in the region apart from the Hussite wars. And there is a problem of units to consider...

[Narayanese]

I'd gladly get rid of the pope as a faction, for such a faction wouldn't behave anywhere near historically, a rebel city of Rome would behave better.
Teutonic Knights weren't part of HRE. Milan on the other hand was part of HRE, and should be one of the senate minions. Notice for example that the imperial twoheaded black eagle was part of Milano's flag.

'Imperial Diet' means Parliament (Reichstag), it's not a geographical area, so what state and what capital are you suggesting for the senate? Any big HRE state would likely do fine, just make hte senate minions Saxony, Milan and Hapsburg.



Is this mod going to work for unpatched RTW? Some bug prevents me from running a patched RTW (same bug in both patches). It's just a difference in the roof of numbers of units, isn't it.

I can't get the banner borders right, are textures get squares instead of their proper shape (round button or pointed standard). Look at this picture (http://img78.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img78&image=standards2jb.jpg). As you can see, to vanilla Selecuid standard is point downward, while the new moorish is brown around the point, that should be invisible. The round buttons have the same problem. Any solutions?

[Narayanese]

from a historical atlas:
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/shepherd/german_power_decline.jpg
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/shepherd/italy_1494_shepherd.jpg
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/colbeck/europe_14_century.jpg
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/colbeck/europe_15_century.jpg
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/shepherd/brandenburg_1320_1415.jpg
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/spanish_kingdoms_1360.jpg

[Yggdrasill]

About banners - don't ask me as I know next to nothing about texturing

This mod is for patched version. The unit cap is quite an important thing for us, if you looked at the (incomplete) unit list, you may have noticed that the number of units is quite big. Easily over 300. So we need higher unit cap.

But fear not. Complete conversions are a time consuming business and we won't be done with it before the end of this year. So by the time we finish with both the strategy and the battle part of the mod (I hope we will finish the battles by October or November, before the campaign so we can play some custom battles as soon as posible), the expansion will be out, or another patch that will fix many bugs and perhaps add new features (like the religion idea I mentioned earlier). So we shall adapt the mod to that expansion, I hope...

Imperial Diet - we can give it a small area somwhere in the HRE where the Diet most often held its assemblies. Maybe the region centered on teh city of Augsburg?

[Narayanese]

Wikipedia says Augsburg was an Imperial Free City, with a population of 16432 in 1635. That means a imperial diet with only a single small city, which is fine for me.
The factions would be: Imperial Diet, Milan, Saxony, Hapsburg, Castile and Leon, Kalmar Union, England, France, Golden Horde, Hungary, Mamluks, Moors, Poland, Muscovy, Ottoman Turks, Venice, Teutonic Knights, Burgundy, Naples, Scotland.


But fear not /---/ to that expansion, I hope...
Reassuring. Anyway if it's just the unit cap then I can simply remove a few of them, if the problem still persists.

[Ignoramus]

The problem is, Milan was never willingly part of the Empire and wasn't "German". If we have Bavaria, which became one of the most powerful states in the 15th and 16th centuries, and it was mainly due to Bavaria that the Catholics did so well in the 30 Year's War.

[Narayanese]

I got new banners working for Greek Cities at least, s you can see in the screenshot thread.


The problem is, Milan was never willingly part of the Empire and wasn't "German". If we have Bavaria, which became one of the most powerful states in the 15th and 16th centuries, and it was mainly due to Bavaria that the Catholics did so well in the 30 Year's War.
Bavaria or Milan or other is just a matter of taste, as long as it's HRE. IMHO Milan is better because you get italian units, and it had some fighting with Venice early on.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Since the church had lost some of its influence we could make the HRE the roman factions, make one a nearby but subservient faction if possible to increase the diversity (such as Milan) and make the papacy a normal faction or just give a unique unit trainable only by Italians in Rome, like elite swiss gaurds.

This sounds quite reasonable and sounds good in theory. Hopefully it will work well. We will have to find some way to provoke the civil war though. I like the idea of having the Imperial diet a tiny city. I believe the Senate faction is made to be docile militarily, so that would help.

For the events such as the 95 theses can anyone draw the pictures? or do we want to use miscellanious pictures or drawings from outside sources. I think for the beginning we can have just miscellanious pictures but we should try to move towards our own work so that it will have a similar feel.

Just to let everyone know I am going to be messing around in RTW files just to see where everything is and see what happens when I change things.

[Ignoramus]

Here, I've worked out a possible set of factions and cultures:

Western Culture:

England
Scotland
France
Burgundy
Castile
Kalmar Union

German Culture:

Imperial Diet
Saxony
Bavaria
Hapsburgs

Italian Culture:

Venice
Milan
Naples

Islamic Culture

Ottomans
Mamluk Sultanate
Moors
The Golden Horde

Bohemian Culture:

Bohemia

Eastern European Culture:

Russia
Poland

Well, what do you think? I put Bohemia as a seperate culture, because it felt very independant, and basically was another culture. I put Bavaria instead of Milan as the last Imperail minion, because otherwise: (a) It mucks up the cultures. (b) It is ahistorical, because although Milan technically was part of the Empire, it was really independant.

I know, not much variety, but maybe you could add a unique unit for 2 of the minions.

My main point is that having Milan as a Imperial minion, would make Milan expand into Venice or France, but having Bavaria, which would have to expand into Italy is a much more historical option.

Your Opinions?

[Yggdrasill]

Cultures cannot be changed, so we have to fit the factions into the existing cultures. This is what I've been fearing, it's a domino effect, you change one little thing and the whole things comes crashing down like a house of cards...

So, for one, Muslim culture is derived from the Eastern culture in Rome, and only has 3 faction slots - Moors, Mamluks and Ottomans (Parthians, Pontus and Armenia). So the GH has to go into a different culture, in this case the Egyptian which now becomes the Mongol culture (even though they were by this point all Muslims, but Mongols were never very good Muslims, ie they retained a lot of their older beliefs and were not very pious so this works out nicely). But that will have to change

The Roman culture is the Imperial culture in this case, I also wouldn't like Milan as the HRE minion they were an Italian city, but instead of Bavaria we should think about the Teutons. I know they weren't exactly minions, but they were German, and would give us some diversity in units. I'm not in love with the Teutonic knights in fact I don't like them as a faction that much, it's just that we should strive to have an equal dispertion of these blank spots throughout Europe (factions that we don't have the slots to include in game and that leave a large gap that can only be filled with rebels). And eastern Europe is full of such blank spots (Greek cities that still resisted the Ottomans, Wallachia, Moldavia, Bohemia, Teutons, Novgorod - all quite large tracts of land, plus various German states that we won't include).

This leaves us with three more cultures - Barbarian with 6 slots, Carthaginian with 2, and Greek with 4.

Barbarian would have to be the West Europe culture - Scotland, England, France, Burgundy, Spain, and Kalmar Union. It is the only culture that gives us the necessary number of factions.


you put in Bohemia instead of Hungary but that is a very poor choice. Hungary was a much more important faction, in the 15th century they were perhaps one of the strongest states in Europe. Bohemia was at times a vassal of Hungary. In fact, at the beginning of the mod, Hungary was ruled by Sigismund of teh Luxemburg house, and he was at the time, ruler of Bohemia as well. Bohemia was in a similar situation as Croatia. It was semi independant, it had it's own king, a different kingdom than it's neighboring states, but that king was almost always a foreigner, a German, Pole or Hungarian. So in effect, they were in a personal union with other states, more powerful states that dominated their affairs.
And also Hungary is much bigger than Bohemia - the blank spots I was talking about earlier.
Bohemia shares the fate of many German states - we don't have the slots to include them all.

So we have to shuffle cultures about and I hate doing that. It undermines everything. One option and a very good one would be to do it like you did swap Muslim faction and the Italian faction, but Bohemia that takes the place of Mongols/Egypt is a waste of a slot and would have to be changed. Since Hungary is omitted I guess that. Also, no Teutons, and no Pope might be a problem for some people. I personaly don't care much about the Papal state (because it should be more like the Pope in MTW not like the Senate), but to me Teutons are a problem because of the major hole that makes in the Baltic area. We should then change the starting date to 1411, although by what I've read today, after 1410, nothing changed much, status quo as it was before the battle of Tannenberg.

We should also keep in mind that before we shall finish this mod, the expansion will be out. And we can only guess what new things will be added. For one, we can reasonably suppose that they will give us more factions, or even remove the limitation altogether. Maybe we shall see new cultures like the Huns (seems reasonable that the expanion will be The Hun Invasion), or even incorporate religion of some sort. Sp we should always keep an open mind to changes. The way I see it, we absolutey know we shall have France, England, Spain, Scotland, Burgundy, Habsburgs, Saxony, Venice, Milan, Hungary, Poland, Muscovy, Ottomans, Moors, Mamluks, Golden Horde, Kalmar, Naples and a Senate faction - either Pope or Imperial diet. The rest should be found among Teutons, Bavaria (subject to what we decide on the Pope issue). Possible additional factions, if new slots do appear in the expansion, would be Wallachia, Greek cities, Ireland, Dutch, Tamerlane and his empire, Portugal...

The issue at hand now is whether or not to:
1. Make the Imperial diet faction as Senate, instead of the Pope. If no, then the whole debate is a not necessary
2. If yes, then which is the third German faction: Teutons, Bavaria
3. If we remove the Teutons, we have to decide to either
A) remove them altogether from the game
B) remove one of the other faction in order to still keep the Teutons
4. Finally, do we leave the Pope as a normal faction (which means we have to remove one existing factions to make room - a very bad idea).

So I would kindly ask everybody to stick to this system at the moment. First we decide whether or not to do the switch between the Pope and the Diet. Then and only then we move on to the next issue. Otherwise we shall never decide on anything.

Also, because this is a major issue, we should hear from everybody. Simply state yes or no to the Senate debate. I will post a poll thread but please limit yourselves to simply voting on the first question, we can debate later when we get the results.


An idea - one of the offices that the Diet/Senate assigns could be the emperor. Because there were emperors before the supposed civil war for power, just not very powerful ones...

[Yggdrasill]

I have an idea. Both Poland and Hungary (instead of Bohemia) are one culture, Eastern European. Muscovy is a separate culture (Egypt in RTW), an Orthodox culture. This also gives us an unexpected advantage. We can define the rebels in Greece as this culture. That way, we shall get the correct culture penalties, buildings and units.
So in other words, Muscovy (Russia) switches places with Hungary (Bohemia)

What do you think?

[Narayanese]

If the pope still is the senate and there is no change of factions, then this I think is good (not sure what to call the rebels though):

*Barbarian: (west europe)
Castile and Leon
Kalmar Union
England
France
Burgundy
Scotland
*Rebel=West European Independent State

*Greek: (muslim)
Golden Horde
Moors
Mamluks
Ottoman Turks
*Rebel=Muslim Independent State

*Eastern: (german)
Hapsburg
Teutonic Knights
Saxony
*Rebel=German Free Imperial City

*Roman: (italian)
Church State
Venice
Milan
Naples
*Rebel=Italian Duchy

*Egypt: (orthodox)
Muscovy
*Rebel=Orthodox Christian Independent State
*(including balkan rebels)

*Carthaginian: (east catholic europe)
Poland
Hungary
*Rebels=Central European Independent State

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Narayanese Ignorams said there were only three slots in the eastern culture, you placed four factions in it. Is he wrong or are you wrong?

I have been messing around with the Companion Cavalry and have figured out pretty much everyting a wld eed t be abe to mosify unit stats,it is qte easy. just had to find the file and search in it with control f for the unit.

[Ignoramus]

Cultures cannot be changed, so we have to fit the factions into the existing cultures. This is what I've been fearing, it's a domino effect, you change one little thing and the whole things comes crashing down like a house of cards...

So, for one, Muslim culture is derived from the Eastern culture in Rome, and only has 3 faction slots - Moors, Mamluks and Ottomans (Parthians, Pontus and Armenia). So the GH has to go into a different culture, in this case the Egyptian which now becomes the Mongol culture (even though they were by this point all Muslims, but Mongols were never very good Muslims, ie they retained a lot of their older beliefs and were not very pious so this works out nicely). But that will have to change

The Roman culture is the Imperial culture in this case, I also wouldn't like Milan as the HRE minion they were an Italian city, but instead of Bavaria we should think about the Teutons. I know they weren't exactly minions, but they were German, and would give us some diversity in units. I'm not in love with the Teutonic knights in fact I don't like them as a faction that much, it's just that we should strive to have an equal dispertion of these blank spots throughout Europe (factions that we don't have the slots to include in game and that leave a large gap that can only be filled with rebels). And eastern Europe is full of such blank spots (Greek cities that still resisted the Ottomans, Wallachia, Moldavia, Bohemia, Teutons, Novgorod - all quite large tracts of land, plus various German states that we won't include).

This leaves us with three more cultures - Barbarian with 6 slots, Carthaginian with 2, and Greek with 4.

Barbarian would have to be the West Europe culture - Scotland, England, France, Burgundy, Spain, and Kalmar Union. It is the only culture that gives us the necessary number of factions.


you put in Bohemia instead of Hungary but that is a very poor choice. Hungary was a much more important faction, in the 15th century they were perhaps one of the strongest states in Europe. Bohemia was at times a vassal of Hungary. In fact, at the beginning of the mod, Hungary was ruled by Sigismund of teh Luxemburg house, and he was at the time, ruler of Bohemia as well. Bohemia was in a similar situation as Croatia. It was semi independant, it had it's own king, a different kingdom than it's neighboring states, but that king was almost always a foreigner, a German, Pole or Hungarian. So in effect, they were in a personal union with other states, more powerful states that dominated their affairs.
And also Hungary is much bigger than Bohemia - the blank spots I was talking about earlier.
Bohemia shares the fate of many German states - we don't have the slots to include them all.

So we have to shuffle cultures about and I hate doing that. It undermines everything. One option and a very good one would be to do it like you did swap Muslim faction and the Italian faction, but Bohemia that takes the place of Mongols/Egypt is a waste of a slot and would have to be changed. Since Hungary is omitted I guess that. Also, no Teutons, and no Pope might be a problem for some people. I personaly don't care much about the Papal state (because it should be more like the Pope in MTW not like the Senate), but to me Teutons are a problem because of the major hole that makes in the Baltic area. We should then change the starting date to 1411, although by what I've read today, after 1410, nothing changed much, status quo as it was before the battle of Tannenberg.

We should also keep in mind that before we shall finish this mod, the expansion will be out. And we can only guess what new things will be added. For one, we can reasonably suppose that they will give us more factions, or even remove the limitation altogether. Maybe we shall see new cultures like the Huns (seems reasonable that the expanion will be The Hun Invasion), or even incorporate religion of some sort. Sp we should always keep an open mind to changes. The way I see it, we absolutey know we shall have France, England, Spain, Scotland, Burgundy, Habsburgs, Saxony, Venice, Milan, Hungary, Poland, Muscovy, Ottomans, Moors, Mamluks, Golden Horde, Kalmar, Naples and a Senate faction - either Pope or Imperial diet. The rest should be found among Teutons, Bavaria (subject to what we decide on the Pope issue). Possible additional factions, if new slots do appear in the expansion, would be Wallachia, Greek cities, Ireland, Dutch, Tamerlane and his empire, Portugal...

The issue at hand now is whether or not to:
1. Make the Imperial diet faction as Senate, instead of the Pope. If no, then the whole debate is a not necessary
2. If yes, then which is the third German faction: Teutons, Bavaria
3. If we remove the Teutons, we have to decide to either
A) remove them altogether from the game
B) remove one of the other faction in order to still keep the Teutons
4. Finally, do we leave the Pope as a normal faction (which means we have to remove one existing factions to make room - a very bad idea).

So I would kindly ask everybody to stick to this system at the moment. First we decide whether or not to do the switch between the Pope and the Diet. Then and only then we move on to the next issue. Otherwise we shall never decide on anything.

Also, because this is a major issue, we should hear from everybody. Simply state yes or no to the Senate debate. I will post a poll thread but please limit yourselves to simply voting on the first question, we can debate later when we get the results.


An idea - one of the offices that the Diet/Senate assigns could be the emperor. Because there were emperors before the supposed civil war for power, just not very powerful ones...


Well, I made the Italians in the Eastern Culture and the Muslims the Greek culture. what's wrong with that?

I forgot about Hungary, they should replace Bohemia.

[Ignoramus]

Hey, I just heard that Activision will make a RTW expanision called Barbarian Invasion to be released in September! That may help us!

[Narayanese]

Narayanese Ignorams said there were only three slots in the eastern culture, you placed four factions in it. Is he wrong or are you wrong?
I placed the three german factions in eastern. But if numidia is egyptian rhen Egypt: (orthodox) and Carthaginian: (east catholic europe) would have to switched in my list.

If I am to believe the captain banner rebel textures, these are the faction cultures:
eastern (3): Armenia, Parthia, Pontus
barbarian (6): Briton, Dacia, German, Gaul, Scythia, Spain
carthaginian (1): Carthage
egyptian (2): Egypt, Numidia
greek (4): Greek Cities, Macedon, Selecuid, Thrace
roman (4): senate, brutii, julii, scipii, slave

[Ignoramus]

I think Numidia is the same culture as Carthage.

[Narayanese]

Here (http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/medieval/golden.htm) is a translation of the golden bull of 1356, the HRE constitution.

It says the electors were to meet in Frankfort on the Main at the death of the emperor and elect a new one there, and that they are not allowed to bring overly many armsmen with them to Frankfort.

The three chancellors (of Germany, of Italy, of Gaul and Arles) were bishops acting as arbiters, and I've read elsewhere examples where they led armies in HRE:s wars, so I think them should be ancillary characters. The offices of cupbearer, marchall etc were hereditary offices, the saxon duke was arch-marshall of the holy empire, austria had no office.

There are 6 senate offices. I agrre with Yggdrasill that Emperor is is good choice for the highest office, I can't find any other historical offices though.


I think Numidia is the same culture as Carthage.
I think you're right. Looked through textfiles, they give the impression that numidia is cartaginian.

[Yggdrasill]

Hey, I just heard that Activision will make a RTW expanision called Barbarian Invasion to be released in September! That may help us!


Where did you hear that? I've been waiting for ages to hear some news on the expansion, can you post a link where you saw it?

Your list is good. Apart from the Hungary-Bohemia mix up and the change in teh East Europe culture (Hungary instead of Russia). If we go for the Imperial Diet then we'll use that list.

[Ignoramus]

On Rtw Heavengames.

[Saranalos]

The guy scanned in the page, that it was on, although it didn't give away any more information, than it's going to be released in september.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

All right, hopefully the expansion will give them an excuse to free up some of the restrictions, such as those on number of factions and cultures. If they could just tell us how to do that or soemthing...

I have pmed Eastside to see what progress he has made on the camp map, I am also going to update the progress report as I think we have gotten some quantifiable progress made.

[Narayanese]

Will Naples be ruled by an angevin king (an independent branch of the french royal family), or an aragon king (an independent branch of the aragonese royal family)? The banner I've made for Naples is angevin, because they ruled in 1402.

Nice to hear about an expansion ~D.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

In my opinion as long as a faction was strong or was not completely doomed in 1402 they should be as they were. Unfortunately we do not have enough factions to always do this, but with the factions we chose we will be doing that. In my opinion Angevin it is.

[Yggdrasill]

I think angevin also

[Narayanese]

The diet seems to have a solid lead over the pope, so perhaps you could tell what factions and cultures you want?

Can you have different cultures for the senate minions (eg can milan hapsburg diet saxony be senate but hapsburg saxony diet teutonic be german), you can, can't you?
I don't understand the "counter-reformation", was Poland orthodox christian in the 15th century? And what about hungary (culture and religion)?

[Uesugi Kenshin]

The diet and minions must all be roman culture.

I don't know much about counter reformation.

[Yggdrasill]

Counter reformation was a movement spearheaded by the Church to revitalize the faith in face of growing number of protestant supporters. It was mostly in the form of religion debate, ideological turns in the Christian dogma, more charity work and less corruption. IIRC it started at the close of the 16th century but the 17th century wa its pinnacvle (baroque era). It's a cultural thing I don't know in what context it came up at this forum?

Poland was and still is catholic (hello John Paul 2, the guy all dressed in white lived in Rome up unitl a few days ago ~;) ). I think Poland and Hungary should be the same culture (both central European, both catholic although a strong protestant movement started in Hungary but because of teh Turkish threat it never took strong roots), and Muscovy an Orthodox culture (Egypt in RTW) as the only representative (because out of 20 faction only Russia is in fact Orthodox)

[Narayanese]

It came up because I was unsure if poland was catholic in the renaissance. I've read a little more now, it seems the royal familiess both of hungary and poland were catholic, but that both countries were much more secular in 15th century then western europe, and had orthodox churches as well as catholic.
It's good to make them one culture, and muscovy alony in its culture.

Edit: The lands of the teutonic order weren't german (though the order is german of course), the population was prussian (whose language was most like lithuanian and latvian), so if we need a three-faction-culture, teutonic order fits with poland and hungary.
Thus cultures could be: muscovy ----- hungary, poland, teutonic order ---- milan, imperial diet (hesse?), saxony, hapsburg (austria) ----- moors, mamluks, turks, golden horde ------ england, scotland, castile and leon (spain), kalmar union, france, burgundy ------ venice, naples

[Ignoramus]

Scrap Teutons, they are a waste of a faction.

[Narayanese]

Scrap Teutons, they are a waste of a faction.



I've been thinking about Teutonic order, and I know I have been the strongest supporter of them being in game, but I forgot one thing. The Order would be a normal faction, ie babies, heirs and such, but in rl they were a militarty monastic order that took it's celibacy vows very seriously! So the sam problem as we would have with the Pope as a normal faction. So I'm now somewhat inclined to having Bavaria as a faction, insead of teh Order.

This does not, however solve the problem of the hole in the Baltic area, the Poles that have virtually no opposition or perhaps that three german factions, three Italian factions plus the Senate (be it Diet or Pope), will surely result in some repetition in units.


Sounds like the teutonic order is going away.
Their celibacy could be simulated by making wives, daughters and sons into male servants/knights/squires/whatever and skipping surnames, and have surnames part of the first name so that they aren't inherited, however that would be a clumpsy solution.

I don't like bavaria as a faction because it is too buffered by rebels and so small, and it was split in three from 1375 to 1503.

If teutonic knights are scrapped my suggestion is Bohemia. Bohemia was ruled by the Wenceslaus IV of House Luxembourg, who was also the ruler of Brandenburg until 1417 and the "king of germany" (ie HRE emperor with bad papal relations). Thus we would have rather big faction (bohemia + brandenburg including Neumark (Neumark, also known as East Brandenburg, was lost to the teutonic order in 1402, ie. slightly after startdate of the mod)) to reign in polish expansion and reduce the number of rebel provinces at the start. It saddens me to leave out milan from hre, but milan never had any power in imperial matters like brandenburg saxony and hapsburg had.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

I would have to side with Bohemia, I think it will work better than fractured Bavaria. But I think we should make Tuetons trainable by a certain set of factions and in only their home provinces. I think that would help spice up the unbit selection in that area and prevent the Tuetons from being totally left out.

[Yggdrasill]

If so then the third faction should not be Bohemia but rather the House of Luxemburg that owns Bohemia. (like we have the house of Habsburg instead of simply Austria).

Teutons as trainable region specific units can be done. A few knight units are possible.

[Narayanese]

Calling it Luxemburg rather then Bohemia sounds good, but then should saxony be named after the ruling family, like the romans in vanilla?
Saxony was split in two, with house Wittenberg as the prince-elector (the family died out in 1422) and ruling upper saxony, and house Ascanian ruling lower saxony (the family lost power in 1689). By calling it saxony rather then a family name we could have both into one faction, just like the moors.

Could poland ever recruit teutonic knights after its conquests?

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Was it Luxemburg or Luxembourg, because as far as I know at the moment it is Luxembourg. Names do change over the years, just wondering.

[Ignoramus]

I'd have Saxony instead of the House of Wittenburg.

[Narayanese]

Was it Luxemburg or Luxembourg, because as far as I know at the moment it is Luxembourg. Names do change over the years, just wondering.

Luxembourg is the modern french and english spelling of the name, Luxemburg is the modern german spelling, the local modern spelling in the duchy is Lëtzebuerg. The family has also had its name spelled Lucilinburhuc, Lutzburg, Lützelburg, Luccelemburc, Lichtburg according to wikipedia, not sure when.
So it was not Luxembourg at least, the ou spelling is french. Maybe they were called Luxemburg already back then, I don't know.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

I think we should use the modern German, it is a German speaking area and it would probably be hard to find the actual original name of such a small kingdom. To clarify I think it should be Luxemburg.

[Ignoramus]

I have just had a great idea! Why don't we change the "The Gladiator Uprising" to the "The Protestant Uprising"? It would show the religious upheaval in this period. It suits perfectly because the Senate factions are German, and as they had the most religious turmoil, it would be a sensible conversion.

[Narayanese]

Protestant Rising is a good idea, but we should have godspetmonkeys popup as well.

Edit:
Here (http://www.euratlas.com/big/big1400.htm) is a nice map of Europe in year 1400 btw.
Here is a list of areas ruled by house Luxemburg (from this (http://www.hostkingdom.net/dynast.html) page where the family is called Limburg) at some time, those ruled in 1402 in bold:
Emperors of the West [Holy Roman] (4) 1313-1314, 1355-1378, 1383-1419, 1433-1437
Kings of Germany (5) 1308-1314, 1346-1400, 1410-1437
Kings of Bohemia (4) 1310-1437
King of Hungary (1) 1387-1437
Dukes and Duchess of Limburg (9/1) c. 1020-1282
Duke of Brabant (1) 1099-1106
Dukes of Luxembourg (8) 1247-1412 (thats pretty much the same as the modern grandduchy of luxembourg)
Margraves of Brandenburg (4) 1373-1417
Count of Tirol (1) 1335-1341

Croatia was ruled by hungarian viceroys.
Bosnia was autonomous.
Hungary was formally ruled by sigismund luxemburg, not wenceslaus luxemburg like bohemia and so, but they were close kin.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

I like the idea of protestant uprisings. What building would we have trigger it? It would have to be beneficial to the player in some way and be related to protestants. Would a special "german" church work? Use the same model and stats, but give it a different name and such.

[Ignoramus]

I thought we could change the name of the Gladiator Uprising to Protestant Uprising.

[Yggdrasill]

Croatia was ruled by ban, an elected official from the ranks of Croatian nobles, and Sabor, an assembly of nobles. It was in a personal union with Hungary (ie two countries one king, like Scotland and England today). For all intents and purposes it was a part of Hungary. Bosnia was part of Hungary as well. The thing is, Sigismund of Luxemburg was the Hungarian king then, but was fighting a civil war with pretty much every noble family in Croatia nd Hungay who opposed him. This was happening right in the time our mod starts. The war was rather brutal and at this time was going badly for Sigismund. So Bosnia kind of separated itself from the rest of the country then, using the turmoil to its advantage under its most powerful king Tvrtko. He backed up both parties at different times based on his own agenda. After his death, and following the end of the war in Hungary, Bosnia weakened rapidly, with large parts of it taken back by Hungarian kings (also the time of crusades against bogumils in Bosnia) and Ottomans drawing ever nearer to finally swallow it in 1463.

Just a little history for you all ~:) .Bosnia should be a rebel province.

[Narayanese]

Does this mean we have a free faction slot (hungary part of luxemburg)?
My history teachers all managed to 100% ignore hungary before WW1...
Tver and Smolensk were in personal union with muscovy btw.
We could have White Sheep Federation (Ak koyunlu) (a nation that was a rest from tamerlane's empire that expanded a lot in 15th century, mostly into mesopotamia, leader in 1402 was Qara Yülük ‘Uthman, suddenly destroyed after 1500 by civil war), or Georgia (christian kingdom that fragmentet during the 15th century, but many of those fragments survived during all of the period of the mod), Wallachia (next to turks and hungary) or Novgorod (cold place), to mention a few candidates.
Genoa was a french protectorate in 1402, switching during the 15th century back and forth between french and milanese rule.
Is hesse the province for the imperial diet? it should be...
Was lithuania polish or not? seems like they had differnent rulers but i'm not sure, all those varying spellings makes it difficult. I'd not like to have poland or lithuania as a rebel area.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Faction list
Castilians
Danes
English
French
Golden Horde
Hapsburgs
Hungarians
Mamluks
Moors
Polish
Russians
Turks
Venetians
Imperial Diet (HRE, senate faction)
Tuetonic Knights
Burgundy
Milano
Naples
Scotland
Poland

This is the old one, I do not remember which factions we were changing other than Papacy to accomodate the HRE, someone please post an updated one. I unfortunately do not have time to right now. Thanks.

[Ignoramus]

Okay Uesugi, here it is:


Senate Factions:

Bohemia
Saxony
Hapsburgs


Teutons are out.
Danes=Kalmar Union


Um, I think we will have to make Milan a Diet factions as I just added these up and it comes to 21 1 too many, I guess its bye bye for Bohemia

[GodsPetMonkey]

Oh no... not again!

sigh...

*Barbarian: (west europe)
Castile and Leon
Kalmar Union
England
France
Burgundy
Scotland
*Rebel=West European Independent State

*Greek: (muslim)
Golden Horde
Moors
Mamluks
Ottoman Turks
*Rebel=Muslim Independent State

*Eastern: (italian)
Venice
Milan
Naples
*Rebel=Italian City State

*Roman: (german)
Imperial diet (Frankfort on Main)
Habsburgs
Saxony
Bavaria
*Rebel=German Free Imperial City

*Egypt: (orthodox)
Muscovy
*Rebel=Orthodox Christian Independent State
*(including balkan rebels)

*Carthaginian: (east catholic europe)
Poland
Hungary
*Rebels=Central European Independent State

based of Narayanese's list a few pages back.

IMHO Bavaria makes for a better imperial subject then Bohemia (historically), but thats a minor matter.

[Ignoramus]

I always wanted Bavaria. Oh no, I'll make a new poll.