Ireland v Scotland

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Well pick one.


Ireland is the less historically accurate choice, however, it may fit better into the game, due to the Irish Straits and the lower chance of the AI taking over England with them.

Scotland is historically accurate, however, it is more likely to take down England while under AI control and is much more similar to England and so has a less unique gaming experience.

[Ignoramus]

I am tied between the two. I would slightly prefer scotland, howeve, If it means England always geting destroyed then Ireland.

Edit: I voted Ireland, because on reflection, it might be better for gameplay, as AI doesn't invade across water too often.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

That is why I am unable to vote, I am unable to decide which is better. I think I am biased towards ireland because of my Irish heritage and Irish Soda Bread is soo good too.....


I am thinking that in spite of that if we are not skinned alive by historians and Ranika, Ireland is the better choice...

[Ignoramus]

I am thinking that in spite of that if we are not skinned alive by historians and Ranika, Ireland is the better choice...

I know, I was originally backing Saranalos on a Gaelic Federation, and he managed to persuade me over to Scotland. Whichever one we leave however, we definately will use them in Feudal.

[Ignoramus]

Oh, BTW, I sent you a pm.

[Ranika]

Ireland or Scotland is find by me; the confederation idea was the most irritating. As for how I view it, I am inclined to vote for Scotland for historical reasons, but the gameplay considerations are pretty valid. So I'll flip a coin and vote later.

[Saranalos]

Hey I was never for the Gaelic Confederation I was just for Ireland. I think if we have Ireland in the game we might be able to squeeze some scottish mercenaries in because as far as I know they were used regularly(correct me if i'm wrong on this).

[Ignoramus]

Well, which one are we having?

[Lief]

Scotland. Everyone loves kilts and claymores!

[SwordsMaster]

Scotland. Everyone loves kilts and claymores!

There were no kilts around yet.specially not in military.

Anyway, Scotland was a major player in European politics. A scottish queen almost sat on the english throne thanks to spanish support. I dont think you can leave scotland out.

[Saranalos]

Well the Irish almost killed the english with the spanish armada exept it was commanded by a fool!

[Ignoramus]

I prefer Scotland because of historical accuracy, but if euther Scotland or England keeps losing early, then Ireland.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Whatever the majorit eventually chooses I will go with. They are both very valid, anybody know if they can move a faction to just above the Britons in CTW and test it without too much trouble?

Maybe move the Gauls if it is possible.

[caesar44]

scotland
for history
actually james VI of scotland sat on the english throne as james I in around 1600
~:cheers:

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

[QUOTE=Uesugi Kenshin] Irish Soda Bread is soo good to....[QUOTE]
*drools*

[Uesugi Kenshin]

You people are going to be the death of me!

This has come down to 6v6 50-50. I have not cast my vote yet..... Has anyone else not cast their vote?


Oh this really sucks.... Gameplay v History, worst face off ever.

[Ignoramus]

You people are going to be the death of me!

This has come down to 6v6 50-50. I have not cast my vote yet..... Has anyone else not cast their vote?


Oh this really sucks.... Gameplay v History, worst face off ever.

Well, if nobody else votes, its your decision. After all, you are the Team Leader. ~;)

[Ranika]

Voted for Ireland for gameplay reasons, under the pretense that it starts as a single province, and Ireland itself be divided up into a number of provinces, so that the Irish don't spread too over-rapidly; each province would have strong armies in them to make spread slow, and the English should have a single Irish province, so they're inevitably pushed to war with the Irish for the island. The English would start (in Ireland) in a weak position; they'd been struggling with indigenous Irish and Normano-Irish chieftans for some time, and they weren't in a very strong position at all. The Irish should start with Connacht, it was the most stable of the old kingdoms at the time, it had a king, etc. They'd start in an alright position. Not too wealthy or anything, but Connacht produces green marble, so their initial province should have some type of 'marble' resource to increase trade. Irish units in general should be kind of cheap to train and maintain (later Irish units, with chain armor, fire arms, etc. would be equal in expense to other countries units), so they can survive with a fair-sized early army and only a single province. They should be able to, within a few turns of the game start, take a second province in Ireland, but doing so should stretch them a small bit, and make them have to consolidate before moving to another province.

Scotland should still be two provinces, I think, each with strong armies in them, and Scottish regional units should be available for both Ireland and England.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

I have come to a conclusion!

I am voting for Ireland. In my opinion the Emerald Isle deserves a slot and will be very fun to play, it will also be more able to survive an English assault and hopefully will not take over England often if ever. It will also be exceptionally fun to play due to unique units, position, homelands fertility and the challenge of being surrounded by large rebel armies.

Rip me a new one tomorrow, tonight I have my last untroubled sleep.

[Saranalos]

Oh well I'm glad that people voted for Ireland but I like to argue. Now Come on Scotland is the better choice...... :dizzy2:

[Ignoramus]

Didn't you before press very strongly for Ireland?

[Duke Malcolm]

Alba gu Brath!!!!!

[Saranalos]

Didn't you before press very strongly for Ireland?

It was a joke.... ~:confused:

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Now this is a wee bit of a pickle lads. Ranika and I voted for Ireland giving it an 8-6 advantage but now two more people have voted for Scotland. We really need to find a way to stop tying....

[Ignoramus]

Maybe people have changed their opinions after voting?

[Yggdrasill]

Scotland was a kingdom with clear lines of succession, with an army, nobility and foreign relations. It fought wars with England. It had a parliament and a judiciary system At the end of the period a Scottish king sat on the English throne.

Ireland had none of these things, a quite wild country with no central authority.

Can anybody spell rebels?

[Eastside Character]

This pole is, I think, of no use for decision making. The decision for me would be easy - Scotland. I don't know why are you wondering about Ireland being a faction on its own. You got a tye now, and I think it won't change much. There are no good reasons why Ireland shouls be a faction, as you can give Irish regions some unique units and make them rebels and you got what Ireland was at the time pretty much. Well, I'm pretty curious how you will resolve this situation.

Rergards
EC

[Uesugi Kenshin]

If by the end of the week it is still tied we will have a quick discussion and I will make a decision if everybodi is fine with that. I will take into consideration all aspects of the two factions and will attempt to remove all bias that I have.

[Saranalos]

Aggh! ~:eek: Scotland looks like it's about to triumph over Ireland.
Just when itlooked like Ireland was winning...~:(

[Fianóglach]

Éireann go Brách! It would make more sense so choose Ireland, as it had yet to be fully integrated with ANglo culture, and was still a completely different place, and would allow for more unique units. Scotland for the most part under heavy influence from England, except in the highlands, wheras Ireland had a multitude of cultures in power in various parts of the country. Most of Eastern Ireland by 1607,(out of the mod's timeframe I know) after the flight of the earls was under Scottish and English Protestant control, and the Irish Gaels and Norse Irish were confines to the more western parts of Munster, and Connacht, and some parts of Ulster. This was solidified of course when the English invaded under Cromwell in 1649 and sacked Drogheda. I think it would be more fun for someone playing the game to play as the Irish, and I could definately assist you modders with history and unit info if you request. I am biased though, being from Ireland and all, lol.

[themonkey]

ireland help gameplay for sure

[Saranalos]

Yes! Supporters.... :bow:
Just after I post it looks like Irelands winning again~D

[Ignoramus]

Don't be too sure! I think there may be a swamp of Scottish voters!

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Tied again, wow. Everyone I may not have a very regular schedule for getting on this weekend, because I will not be home, but I should be able to get on the forum.

[Ignoramus]

Now it is in favour of Scotland! At last people with sense!

[Duke Malcolm]

Alba gu Brath! Let the Scots win! 11-10, keep the votes coming!

[Saranalos]

The vote count keeps changing now Ireland would be the better choice I think for gameplay reasons.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Just as a note to everyone if the vote is very close I will want to hear arguments from everyone and if people do not mind make the final decision, because one or two votes that could be from people outside of the team should not decde something like this. But, I will definately take into account which side ends up with the majority and if it is 3 or more then it is a decisive vote and i will back it.

[Ignoramus]

Have Scotland! (A) It was a solid storng kingdom. (B) It had developed some Renaissance culture. (C) To stop either England or Scotland destroying each other early, make some impassable barrier, such as mountains, or a river, with only one path or bridge, on the Anglo-Scottish border. (D) It will use some English models so we don't reach the limit. (E) It will present a realistic challenge to England, facing both Frnace and Scotland. (F) It will make it a race for Ireland. (G) If you are worried about making Scotland too strong, give them one unique spearmen unit which is really powerful, but make thier armies start off in smaller numbers than England.

Well?

[Saranalos]

To stop either England or Scotland destroying each other early, make some impassable barrier, such as mountains, or a river, with only one path or bridge, on the Anglo-Scottish border.
Remember we cant construct some imaniganable mountains because we are trying to be as historical as possible.


(A) It was a solid storng kingdom Ireland wasn't a strong kingdom so that will make it more challenging to unite the squabbling tribes and forge an empire out of them.


(F) It will make it a race for Ireland. (G) If you are worried about making Scotland too strong, give them one unique spearmen unit which is really powerful, but make thier armies start off in smaller numbers than England.

Well then the english could destroy them if they have smaller armies, england will be able to support more troops than scotland because it is more fertile and giving the Scottish a unique spearmen unit might be a bit ahistorical and would unbalance the game later on.

[GodsPetMonkey]

Have Scotland! (A) It was a solid storng kingdom. (B) It had developed some Renaissance culture. (C) To stop either England or Scotland destroying each other early, make some impassable barrier, such as mountains, or a river, with only one path or bridge, on the Anglo-Scottish border. (D) It will use some English models so we don't reach the limit. (E) It will present a realistic challenge to England, facing both Frnace and Scotland. (F) It will make it a race for Ireland. (G) If you are worried about making Scotland too strong, give them one unique spearmen unit which is really powerful, but make thier armies start off in smaller numbers than England.

Well?

(A) and (B) are good points.

I think some fantasy barrier is a silly way to fix the problem (though a England vs Scotland show down is as inevatible as a England v France in MTW, but I think it would be the same if we had Ireland). Luckily there are a few real geograhic elements that help (check a map of the scottish lowlands and borders with england!)

(E) is another very good point, and one I am quite fond of! The bulk of the scotish armies will be very similar to the english, only a few unique highland units to add.


I think some people are underestimating the defencive position that Scotland has. Concentrating your defencive forces in the south can quite effectively block off an English assualt, and as the English would start off at war with France (this is during the later half of the 100 years war remember) they will be adaquetly distracted.

I think the Irish are the poor cousins for both historical and gameplay reasons, historically they were not important in this time period, political unity is questionable, and while I think that Scotland is to far removed from the real action (and thats why I think another european faction should be considered) the Irish are even further removed.
And the case for it being the 'challenge' faction, I should think that Scotland is as tough a position in the way of expansion, the real challenge factions would be ones like the Moors, who are really on the back foot against Spain. Central europe will also become rather interesting VERY fast, hemmed in all arround with powerful and emerging neighbours. Want to be stuck between some angry turks and frenchmen?
The only gameplay + for Ireland is all those with Irish ancestry can finally stick it to the english in a virtual world ~;)

[Saranalos]

The only gameplay + for Ireland is all those with Irish ancestry can finally stick it to the english in a virtual world

Yeah kill the english!!!!! :charge: :duel: Whoops I'd have to kill my cousins as well dont want to do that......

Maybe Ireland is a poor choice then for reasons stated by Godspetmonkey but is there another european faction that could be added? Maybe better than both scotland and Ireland? Anyway I thought it might be better to have Ireland because of the english and scottish killing each other off at an early stage so you never get to fight one of the factions because one wins all the time.

[Ignoramus]

I think we need to have Scotland because otherwise England will become like the Briotns in RTW. They build up a large navy and nobody touches them. the AI doesn't usually attack by sea, so this way it would stop England dominating. Also, weren't there rivers near the Anglo-Scottish border? Anyway, it is silly to include Ireland. This is a RENAISSANCE Mod, and since the Irish were still quite Medieval in their culture, it just wouldn't make sense with the rest of the Mod. Also, I relish the opportunity of having to play Scotland, who if it hadn't have been for family ties in the Monarchy, and the Act of Union, would still be independent. Otherwise England would invade France and do what the Britons in RTW do, expand into Germany and France, this way, the English would have to fight Scotland first. Scotland, wouldn't be able to smash England either, because of superior English armies. England wouldn't be easily able to smash Scotland either, as we could make Scottish territories have like +50% unrest to really explain the fierce Scottish sense of identity, unity, and idependence from foreign rule. That is why many Scots flocked to the Jacobite uprisings, many disliked English or British rule over them, and simply wished to throw off the yoke.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Well it looks like Scotland has won.

Some very good arguments have been given and I think we should have Scotland instead of Ireland, even though I still think playing Ireland would make my top 10 gaming moments of all time. We can do that in Fuedal f we get there.

Unless there is a sudden appearance of strong backing for Ireland I think Scoltand is the way to go.

[Saranalos]

Yes maybe scotland is better but there is only one way for scotland to expand and that is down through england.

[Ignoramus]

Excellent! I'm glad my arguments won the day for Scotland!

[Saranalos]

I was more swayed by Godspetmonkey's arguments...

Anyway I was pointing out that Scotland HAS to expand through england there is no other way and most always one of them is either going to win or keep wearing each other down and stay small countries and so make Scotland a waste of TWO factions....

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Well you never know, Ireland could still win. Saranalos are you still loyal to Irelnd? If you are could you re-post your arguments so we get both sides of the debate?

[Ignoramus]

I will post my arguments for Ireland, however, I still want Scotland.

Ireland is good because. (A) They have the Irish Sea seperating them from England. (B) It may be a bit of a struggle for them.

However, the last thing we want, is Ireland to get ELIMINATED by Rebels! If you make large Reble armies in Ireland, while Ireland only has small ones, Ireland, when played by th AI, is going to get thumped! At least Scotland will have the Orkney Islands to retreat to. Also, England owned half of Ireland anyway, so to be accurate would have to give England one province, who would blitz the Irish. Also, thanks GodsPetMonkey for your arguments!

[Saranalos]

Yes I am still loyal to Ireland

1.) Ireland is not above England like scotland and it can expand into france, wheras Scotland will only expand downwards if possible.

2.) If we have England and scotland there is going to be bloodshed within the first 5 years and one of them is going to lose all the time, If we balance them a bit more, then scotland will probably manage to hold out but probably wont be able to expand through england and the English will weaken themselves so much that they wont expand at all.

3.) Ireland is a different Island not joined together like Scotland and England and I think it would add more diversity to the game.

4.) My argument is for gameplay reasons not patriotic or biased because I live there but because I think it would be best for the game and it wouldnt waste two factions like scotland would.

[Ignoramus]

In answer to your arguments:

1.) Not all the factions HAVE to expand, it would be a tug-of-war for mainland Britain. Also, Ireland is silly, beause they would become fully fledged naval power, which is both ahistorical and bad for gameplay.

2.) That's both realistic and fun! Having the AI slog it out against each with no succes is quite historical. Also, Scotland could expand east to Scandinavia. England would be able to expand west into Ireland, and maybe into France.

3.) It may add more diversity, but in the bd sense. England would have no oppositon in the British mainland and would then with no early expensive war, invade everyone like the Britons in Rtw.

4.) Soctland would enhance England, not the other way around!

[Saranalos]

In answer to your questions.

They should expand and having two AI opponents slog it out just reduces the number of opponents you will have to face. Saying that if Ireland has a big navy its ahistorical is not a good argument because in reality England didnt have enough army's to conquer europe but in the game it's possible. And Ireland would only dominate the north seas where england would have a big navy and dominate as well.

I dont think they would invade everyone I was playing the game and I was about 50 years into the game before England attacked anyone but when it did it won so I had a bit of opposition from them with them attacking me every year so although they were smaller than me their chariots kept devastating my armies.

I think Scotland would just keep England in England allowing no expansion unless played a human player.

[Ignoramus]

For a start, it doesn't mean they won't expand. It just means England won't expand into Scotland and vice versa.

The Britons in RtW show this, with no oppositon, they just bash up everybody.

More disadvantages: Ireland wasm't united, So it would have ONE province. It couldn't have all that big an arm!y, or they would go broke. Now, if Ireland was played by the AI, they wouldn't even have resources to expand in Ireland itself. I can understand Irishmen wanting Ireland in the Mod. However, I am not from Scotland, the reason I want Scotland is tht I am a historian, and I think it would be absurd if you have Ireland over Scotland!

[Uesugi Kenshin]

You have done a good job in the debate Ignoramus, we can have this going for a bit longer and if you keep coming up with good replies to our doubts it will probably turn to Scotland.

Ireland was extremely fertile and rebels do not build up their armies so even though Ireland would start off surrounded by strong rebeles Ireland could build up a strong enough army to take a province and then so on continually beating back the rebels until Ireland is fully AI or player controlled.

The AI does not often attack overseas. England would only have a running war with France if we implemented a land bridge between Calais. We could do this, but I think it would make England too accessible to France and end up with England being restricted by Scotland, France beating down England and France then taking out Scoltand. How is that for ahistorical? (I think that would happen every time pretty much)

I do not think Scotland would go into Scandinavia, naval attack with armies. Almost never done by AI. Also Ahistorical.

Having the Irish faction be one family/clan is not all that ahistorical is it? In the end if we upped the rebelliousness of Ireland we would end up with a land prone to rebellion that did not have enough resources left over from fighting rebellion to expand outward, however, it would have enough to play foil to England. More historically represents the loose connection that was sometimes maintained between the Irish lords.

We could also make Scotland prone to rebellion and not give it a faction, it would not attack England and thus not reduce England too mmuch but it would make it hard for England to take and keep large tracts of French land.

[caesar44]

one must consider the role of scotland and ireland in 15-18 centuries europe and then the choice is very clear
~:)

[Saranalos]

I can understand Irishmen wanting Ireland in the Mod. However, I am not from Scotland, the reason I want Scotland is tht I am a historian, and I think it would be absurd if you have Ireland over Scotland!


4.) My argument is for gameplay reasons not patriotic or biased because I live there but because I think it would be best for the game and it wouldnt waste two factions like scotland would.

You should have read my post properly. You see I think that scotland wont be able to expand and will just sit there occasionally attacking in small numbers and just be a waste.

I would rather have some european faction instead of Ireland or Scotland but since we are choosing between these two I choose Ireland because I think it would be better for gameplay.

[Ignoramus]

I know, I was just thinking, that we need some barrier for England. All the other factions like France would have maybe even 4! factions surrounding them. However, I would like Scotland if we had to choose betweem Ireland and Scotland. However, if the choice was a european faction I would have to press for Bavaria. Why, because at the start and end of this Mod, and before the Thirt Years War, Bavaria was one of the largest and most powerful of the German states. Also, if we have Saxony, which most people want, It would stop us from doing two veryy ahistorical things, The first things is to give Saxony more territory than they historically had, to compensate for only one German state. The second thing, would be to accurately give Saxony its territory, but that would mean, Austria, Milan, and Burgandy, would quickly snap up the Rebel territories.
If it is between Ireland and Scotland I'd say Scotland. If it is another European faction which I hope is the case, then Bavaria would DEFINATELY be my choice. It would make this mod unique from other mods, as we would be displating the disunity of Europe during this period.

Saranalos: Sorry if in any way I misread your post.

[Saranalos]

It's okay it just annoyed me that you seemed to say that I was choosing Ireland because I live there after specifically stating that I wasnt doing that.... :bow:

I just dont think Scotland when controlled by the AI will have any way to expand except through England. I would think that Ireland can attack France as easily as it can attack England and would lead to more intresting gameplay.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

I do not think we should have 3 german factions. I think we should choose the two best german factions for the time period and not talk about a third anymore. We need more variety than that.

[Duke Malcolm]

Ignoramus is right, the Anglo-Scottish border is made up of, more or less, the rivers tweed and solway and theri tributaries. Vive l'Ecosse.

[Zharakov]

Scootland.

Although I am Russian.

I am also 1/3 Scottish. ~D ~:cheers:

[Saranalos]

You see that is a biased vote, if you can only give the reason that you're scottish for you're vote, it shouldnt be counted.

At the moment Scotland 14 Ireland 11 looks like things are going bad for Ireland anyway.

[Zharakov]

No I have other reasons. But they were allreaddy said by other people.

Why restate them?

[Uesugi Kenshin]

I would say that Scotland has the majority it needs. Unless anybody has anything new to say that will refute the arguments for Scotlnad I would say this debate is done.

[Saranalos]

Oh sorry Zharakov it just seemed that you were only voting for Scotland because you were part Scottish, if you'd have said I agree with Ignoramus and Godspetmonkeys arguments I would have left your vote alone...

Anyway it seems like Ireland lost anyway, oh well here comes the waste of a faction....

[GodsPetMonkey]

Oh sorry Zharakov it just seemed that you were only voting for Scotland because you were part Scottish, if you'd have said I agree with Ignoramus and Godspetmonkeys arguments I would have left your vote alone...

Anyway it seems like Ireland lost anyway, oh well here comes the waste of a faction....

You're just bitter ~D

[Zharakov]

Not true. The history of Scottland is far more in depth then Ireland.

Scottland fought around 46 wars with England, Ireland about 3...


It also makes mroe sence because Ireland belonged to England during the Renesance, and Scottland was not defeated untill 1741.

Besides, Scottland was never really a major power in Europe. They were just an anoying thorn in the English sides.

[Duke Malcolm]

Scotland was never defeated. England bribed the lords of the Scottish Parliament in 1707 to agree to the Act of Union. While the only people who benefited were traders and the lords, really, we were not defeated, unlike the Irish. what happened in 1746 ( assume you means that, at the battle of Culloden) was when the Jacobites, and Bonnie Prince Charlie startes what was essentially a civil war and tried to take the crown for James Stewart/Stuart, the old pretender.

Most of the people of Scotland opposed the rebellion, being devout presbyterians of the Kirk. The Government Army which fought at the Battle of Culloden against the Jacobites was made up mostly of Scots. My History teachers at school have struggled to put aside misconceptions held by people that the English defeated the Scots at Culloden, and that it was the Protestant British against the Catholic Jacobites, the British Army being made up mostly of Scots. They have drilled this into my head, and I shall not have Scotland shamed by someone saying it was defeated by the English (except at sport).

[GodsPetMonkey]

The english bribed the bankrupt lords of Scotland (see the failure of the New Caladonia expedition), not that there were many rich people left, the country was in serious financial problems, the english saw this, and figured paying them off would be better then previous methods employed to bring Scotland 'into the fold'.

But there hadn't been any major problems since both countries had the same monarch, most stuggles from then on were for religous reasons, hence it was a British army, not english nor scottish that won Culloden.

[Saranalos]

Scottland fought around 46 wars with England, Ireland about 3...
Yes but the Irish kept fighting the English until they got their independence there was always some resistance.


You're just bitter ~D

Maybe but I still think Scotland is a waste of a faction unless played by a human player.

[GodsPetMonkey]

Yes but the Irish kept fighting the English until they got their independence there was always some resistance.



Maybe but I still think Scotland is a waste of a faction unless played by a human player.

With RTWs AI, thats the case for all factions.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Well if you really want to get technical Ireland probably had somewhere around 100 civil wars/wars of independence over the years.
Some factions give a good fight....

[Zharakov]

Shhhh... Don't tell me these things... ~D lol.

In truth, we don't learn much about Scotland in Russia. But I can tell you ALOT you may not have know about Russia.


Deep dark secrets that should never see the light of day... ~D ~:cheers:

[Duke Malcolm]

One thing I know about russia is that its navy was founded by a Scottish admiral

[Zharakov]

Thanks to Peater the Greats ambitions.

Also, why will Russian be light blue? Shouldnt Scotland be light blue? And shouldn't Russia be green or white?

Just asking.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

I don't know what Russia's colors should be, here in the US they do not teach us much....about pre-Lenin Russia.

Please tell us the secrets, but first make sure there are no ex-KGB guys hanging about. I will distract the CIA so they do not try anything.

[Zharakov]

My dad is EX-KGB *now hes a Spetsnaz*. So I am safe. ~D

[ScottishAdam]

Scotland by a long shot!! Scotland has a far etter histroy than ireland, what has ireland actually ever done?? Scotland has achieved a great deal, All ireland is famous for is fleeing the their country. Scotland has fought off all the major powers of the medieval ages, the english, the romans, the vikings you name it. We have never been conquered!!!

Scotland the brave