The Dutch Republic

[Ghorrit]

As this is to be a Renaissance mod will the Netherlands in some form or another be in it?

So far all ideas are looking great, cant wait for this mod to come out!! keep up the good work!!
Ghorrit

[Ignoramus]

We're not sure yet, probably I would not, as they rebelled about 1565, however we are not sure yet.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

I woulds say it is extremely unlikely. We already have a fairly full faction list and have been debating whether or not to include other more prominent factions, Tuetonic Knights and Saxony for example. I wish we could include everything, but a lot of restrictions are placed on the number of factions and the number of units. Sorry.....

[The Stranger]

make them like the swiss, you know emerging on a time, and depenent on some things like ownership or happiness

[Ghorrit]

No worries, still looking forward to the release.
I would be carefull though of putting in a faction like the Teutonic Knights in a Rennaissance mod......
Ghorrit

[cegorach]

This mod starts in 1402 so the Order has to be there.

Looking for the Dutch, check the P&M TW subforum ~;)

[Ignoramus]

Well, we have Burgundy which has territory in the Netherlands.

[Brutus]

The Burgundian possesions would become Habsburg after 1482, when Mary of Burgundy, last of her line (she was the daughter of Charles the Bold, who died against the Swiss in 1477) fell of her horse and died. The Netherlands were then ruled by Maximilian of Habsburg (Mary's husband) for his son, Philip, and when Philip died (in 1506), Maximilian ruled once more for his grandson Charles V who took over Burgundy and the Netherlands in 1515, Spain in 1516 and was chosen emperor in 1519.

However, the Dutch rebellion didn't take any real form before 1568 (1566 only being the year of the infamous 'Beeldenstorm', when iconoclasts wrecked many church treasures), when the first battle was fought at Heiligerlee, and didn't get any territorial possesions until 1572, when the seabeggars (watergeuzen) under Admiral Lumey van der Marck took the town of Brill (Den Briel). For some years the rebellion was in a precarious position, but by 1579 they owned a territory large enough to be reckoned with. By the end of the 16th century the Dutch were already establishing themselves as a major European power.

So probably some 'Dutch rebels' would be in order...

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Yeah, the first date you mentioned was 1482 and that is way too far after the date for us to change a faction around. Dutch rebels should fit though.

[Yggdrasill]

hey brutus if you know of some unique units for the Dutch, especially during the war with Spain, feel free to give us some tips...

[Brutus]

Hmmm, well, most units fighting on the dutch side would have been mercenaries, mostly Germans and French. Some Walloons would be nice, as well for any Dutch army as for a Spanish army. These mercenaries would be mainly employed by prince William of Orange (who fled to Germany in 1567 and was murdered at Delft in 1584), his brothers and his sons and succesors.

More importantly though, you would have to include 'Geuzen' of 'Watergeuzen' (Seabeggars), which were groups of protestant Dutch that fled out of the Netherlands during the rule of the duke of Alva (1567-1573), who fiercely persecuted all protestants. The 'Watergeuzen' fled to sea and acted as pirates for some years before starting the real rise against Spain in 1572. The Watergeuzen are also known to have killed large numbers of Catholic clergy (most famous at Brill, were they killed 19 clergymen from Gorinchem). So they could be concieved as zealous protestants and pirates.

Many of the other units in the early war would have been city militia units, who would have quite well armed and trained, due to the rich cities in the region.

Last but not least, units from the Netherlands during the earlier periods should include 'Bandes d'ordonnance' or 'Ordonnantiebenden', which were units made up of young noble horsemen (heavy riders as well as 'archers') who were the only standing army in the Netherlands for quite some time. Charles the Bold (r. 1467-1477) first started these units, and after a brief interlude they re-emerged under Philip of Austria (around 1500). They remained in existance at least until the Revolt against Spain.

An other type of (in)famous unit would have been the 'Zwarte bende' ('Black gang'), who fought for the Duchy of Guelders (Gelre) against the Habsburgs (until 1543, when Charles V finally subdued Guelders). I don't know which kind of soldiers this gang was made of, though.

I will try to find some pictures of any Dutch soldiers of the period.

[Moros]

but watergeuzen or geuzen aren't a real unit isn't it just the name for all those rebellions. (well I don't know how to state this i proper englisch but it's more like the name of the "organisation". for example you can't make a unit like alqaeda (not sure about the spelling :s) when making a game of this time period.
correct me if I'm wrong
the black gang was a gang so it would have probably lots of kinds of units.
therefor I guess that it would be better to make units like this for example:
(I don't know about real units nor what kind of units they used or...)
but let us say if they for example had some graet cavalry (prob not true but if) let us call it watergeuzen ruiterij for example (dutch for watergeuzen cavalry). cause they didn't had real units with real specific names I think its best just to take a few of the type of the better units they had and put it in dutch with watergeuzens of de zwarte bendes before it.
btw: I only know some facts and stuff abot this but none real details cause all i know about this I have learned in school (but you know how they rush over everything in school)

sorry for bad englisch but I hope this was of any help.
-Gert Gregoor

[Brutus]

Gertgregoor, I agree with you that the Watergeuzen or Geuzen were not real units in a sense. However, in gameplay terms you would have to simplify these things, I think. (In RTW you find lots of units that wouldn't have been 'units' in real life, like for example the Cilician pirates or Judean Zealots) Therefore, you could look upon the Watergeuzen as a kind of guerilla group, which would justify a unit.

Apart from that, the Watergeuzen and other Geuzen fought as seperate entities under seperate commanders (like for example the aforementioned Admiral Lumey van der Marck), with little real connection with the (mercenary) armies of the prince of Orange and the many city militias.

Other than that there were no specific Dutch units. Fighting equipment and style would be much the same as in many parts of northwestern Europe. However, at the turn of the century Maurits (Maurice) of Nassau, son of William of Orange, was one of the leading military innovators and people from all over Europe came to him to learn 'the art of war'.