View Full Version : EB news - Friday, March 4
Greetings Europa Barbarorum fans!
We have a rather large update for you this week. This will be an update of firsts, as we introduce new factions and creations you have not seen before. We have not yet shown you any eastern or steppe units, so today we have our first eastern units; the Baktrian Doryophoroi and Parthian Eransahr Arshtbara (yes, I know, you must wait just a bit longer for horse archers!), created by Spartan Warrior.
Armed with spear and bow, these troops are not well regarded by their Greek masters, having formed the bulk of the Old Persian army defeated by Alexander the Great. They are seen as skirmishers and auxiliaries, with the heavy Greek infantry forming the battle line. These Iranian Spearmen are recruited from the eastern reaches of the Iranian plateau and are very common in the armies of Baktria.
http://img202.exs.cx/img202/8638/001f8wb.jpg
Next, we have the Baktrian Median cavalry, also created by Spartan Warrior.
In the Seleucid and Baktrian armies, these medium cavalrymen are very prevalent. Descended from the lesser Persian nobility, they now render good service to their new masters. They are excellent medium cavalry, capable of skirmishing, charging, and fighting fairly well in melee.
http://img137.exs.cx/img137/8849/001f4mr.jpg
Now, another faction that has so far been neglected in the news are the Germanics. Here we see two new units modelled by Alin and skinned by Webbird.
These are the Sahsnotaz. Sahsnotaz means Swordbondsmen, and these fighters hail from such warlike tribes as the Cimbrii, the Cheruscii, the Chaucii and the numerous clans of the Suebii confederation. Swords are not plentiful in germanic lands, due to the expense and iron needed for a such a weapon,
and so these fierce and valiant warriors carry their highly valued swords with pride.
http://img33.exs.cx/img33/4444/germans038iu.jpg
http://img43.exs.cx/img43/1251/germans044yk.jpg
Next are the Buγōn-Manwaz. These germanic bowmen learned their skill with their chosen weapon by hunting in the dense germanic forests.
http://img208.exs.cx/img208/2959/25vi.jpg
http://img143.exs.cx/img143/1001/germans010sg.jpg
Another new creation you have not yet seen are our siege engine changes. Alin has made several new siege engines; this is the oxybeles, siege artillery first used in the early 4th century BC.
http://img46.exs.cx/img46/3224/28az.jpg
Another new concept is that of unique structures. We are working on unique buildings, structures, and other areas that have some significance. Some are destructable, some are not. Some represent man-made things, some natural. Havenvoordieven, a relative newcomer to EB, is working on new buildings. Here we have the first, and I will give a cookie to whoever guesses what this represents:
http://img88.exs.cx/img88/2807/newbuilding10gy.jpghttp://img88.exs.cx/img88/7/tinybuilding19hv.jpg
Finally, we have another of Parmenio's faction icon conversions. This one shouldn't be too hard to figure out ;)
http://img88.exs.cx/img88/7273/newsymbol17zg.jpg
As always, if you have questions or comments, the best place to post them would be here:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=70
Or here:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/index.php?showforum=60
You may find old news posts in these forums, including a preview of our new map:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=42840
We give special thanks to http://www.imageshack.us who provide us with a simple, foolproof, and free way to show you all these pictures each week.
Have a wonderful day!
Sincerely,
-the EB team
Nothing_Grows
03-05-2005, 10:03
VERY NICE ~;)
Guessing the sybol is sarmatia
lol, i staid up till 1:00 pacific time to get this update, this is what you guys have reduced me to ~:handball:
Proper Gander
03-05-2005, 10:13
fantastic work once again!
your models and skins look so much more convincing than the originals.
:balloon2: :balloon2:
It's Macedon. The red letter on black that CA used wasn't used that much (as far as I know), the symbol above was used commonly (that I do know).
Hmm, the buildings there could be Delphi, or at least something Helennic.
Great work, I bow to your skill. :bow:
Skilfingr
03-05-2005, 12:56
aargh!
it's as I feared. :embarassed:
Sahsnotaz! this refers to the Sax, a germanic single edged sword type of 6/7th century ad !!! this far to late for time frame of EB. the word Saxnot is used in a Saxon baptism vow (here is a link http://www.varunaholzapfel.de/histext2.html - it's the second). Most people think that Saxnot means "sword brother" and is just another name for Tiwaz/Tius/Ziu/Tyr like the norse Forseti.
So Saxnotes (and Sahsnotaz) are much to young for EB.
If you want to get an idea of the germanic weapons of this time take a look at the Hjortspring find (dated around 350 BC). I try to find out other archaeological finds that better fit the given time frame.
the symbol is Macedonian. it is the argaedic star ( argaedische ster in nederlands) replacing the inaccurate /\ ( lambda) wich belongs to the spartans.
do you already have greek_cities skins? what will be the new faction-name for them?
what faction will fill up the slot of numidia. I read numidia will be rebelled, so what new faction?
aargh!
it's as I feared. :embarassed:
Sahsnotaz! this refers to the Sax, a germanic single edged sword type of 6/7th century ad !!! this far to late for time frame of EB. the word Saxnot is used in a Saxon baptism vow (here is a link http://www.varunaholzapfel.de/histext2.html - it's the second). Most people think that Saxnot means "sword brother" and is just another name for Tiwaz/Tius/Ziu/Tyr like the norse Forseti.
So Saxnotes (and Sahsnotaz) are much to young for EB.
If you want to get an idea of the germanic weapons of this time take a look at the Hjortspring find (dated around 350 BC). I try to find out other archaeological finds that better fit the given time frame.
The Hjortspring find consist mainly of raided or imported weapons from celtic areas, especially the mail shirt or swords.
B.t.w. - the sahsnotaz uses a celtic-style sword and not a longsax, as you can see in the screenshot.
We are using the unit name "Sahsnotaz" as a synonym for Tiwaz-Swordbondsmen.
We are more than happy, if you come up with some other archaeological finds, but meanwhile i don't understand your embarassement. ~:confused:
And as a final note:
We definately not use screeching women as a fighting unit for the germanic tribes.
The shield on the swordsmen looks slightly odd. Was a six sided shield not more common? I've never seen an octagonal shield like that.
Other than that, excellent, although I think the Germanic bowmen should perhaps be in less close order - I don't think there's much evidence to support medieval style massed archery among Germanic tribes.
Still, minor quibbles. I'm really looking forwards to a really good Germanic faction.
One suggestion for them - rather than dividing them into units according to their equipment, doing it according to their social role might be an idea. So you have your basic tribal levies which could vary slightly according to region, but you also have your noblemen with their comitatus who would be better equipped and so on.
Drag0nUL
03-05-2005, 13:55
Great job guys! Once again very nice screenshots. However I have a question regarding the doryophoroi. Isn't this a greek word? If so, why is it used to designate units from an eastern faction? Wouldn't a persian name be more appropriate?
Skilfingr
03-05-2005, 14:19
The Hjortspring find consist mainly of raided or imported weapons from celtic areas, especially the mail shirt or swords.
It seems that almost all swords found in germanic areas in this period are imported from celts or romans (or where modelled after celtic or roman example).
the spearheads on the other hand are surely not imported or raided. at least the bone spearheads are germanic (why they should import bone spearhead).
B.t.w. - the sahsnotaz uses a celtic-style sword and not a longsax, as you can see in the screenshot.
it's hard to identify the shape of the sword on the screenshots.
We are using the unit name "Sahsnotaz" as a synonym for Tiwaz-Swordbondsmen.
then it's ok. But to my knowledge Sahs is old high german. so it would be better to use an older form of the word "sword" (if an older form is known of course).
We are more than happy, if you come up with some other archaeological finds, but meanwhile i don't understand your embarassement. ~:confused:
It's hard to find archaeological informations on the net. Unfortunately archeologists usually do not publish their research on the net. So I have to go to the library. But, as I stated before, I'm very busy with exam so it may take a while.
And as a final note:
We definately not use screeching women as a fighting unit for the germanic tribes.
If you read my post carefully, you will notice, that I did not said: "I want fighting screeching woman". I said they would be a nice non fighting unit that give a morale bonus to the warriors.
khelvan replied, that you will not implement non fighting units and that baritus (not sure what he means but I think it's barditus - the singing of song before battle) will have the same effect - that's ok.
may be we can discuss these things more in detail in email conversion
Barditus is the german word while Baritus is the english one.
Aymar de Bois Mauri
03-05-2005, 14:31
The shield on the swordsmen looks slightly odd. Was a six sided shield not more common? I've never seen an octagonal shield like that.What about this?
http://img96.exs.cx/img96/3888/germanic1stadsmall0ty.th.jpg (http://img96.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img96&image=germanic1stadsmall0ty.jpg)
Skilfingr
03-05-2005, 14:31
Barditus is the german word while Baritus is the english one.
ok. haven't found it in my dictionary.
nothing more to say?
Wow nice eastern units, but my opinion is that the colors of the germanic units are a bit drab but the models are very nice.
Why are the colors only green, brown, gray or kaki ?!
I know that the germanics where a more somber people then the celts but they did know how to make nice color dyes for there clothes.
although I think the Germanic bowmen should perhaps be in less close order - I don't think there's much evidence to support medieval style massed archery among Germanic tribes.
Don't worry on the archers since the screens were just to show the unit and not to reflect the gameplay they will more loosen up in the mod.
nothing more to say?
You are welcome to discuss this via pm or e-mail if you like.
I was a little irritated by your first post.
Feel free to contact me and naturally every bit of information you can come up with is welcomed.
Cheers
SaFe
Yay! No more purple pajama men for my glorious Persians! And no weirdo Germans! Great update! Also, the Bactrian cavalry don't seem to be showing...
Steppe Merc
03-05-2005, 17:30
Great job guys! Once again very nice screenshots. However I have a question regarding the doryophoroi. Isn't this a greek word? If so, why is it used to designate units from an eastern faction? Wouldn't a persian name be more appropriate?
We do have many units named with Persian and Parthian dialects. However, this was more used by the Bactrians (though also by the Parthians, of course), so they get a Greek name. Some units are named in Greek, but most are in Eastern languages. And only a very few are in English.
what faction will fill up the slot of numidia. I read numidia will be rebelled, so what new faction?
Many information will not be released until the actual release.
Crownsteler
03-05-2005, 17:50
Bactria will take the place of numidia.
The Greek Cities setup will reflect the Confederation formed to fight the Chremonidean War. The name is in Greek, and will be announced later :)
DukeofSerbia
03-05-2005, 18:26
QUESTION for Khelavan - Wasn't real Macedon coat of arms she-goat? I know they used that sun, but... ~:confused:
EB Mod is looking better and better, these unit shots are great. Please do not make us wait much longer for a view of some realistic Horse Archers
Steppe Merc
03-05-2005, 19:07
Sadly, even I, who am working on the Parthians and Sarmatians haven't seen any horse archers yet. ~;) It's slow work, but once they get done, I'll try and make sure you guys can see it. ~D
Why are the germanics clothed in drab textiles?
Example, the Sahsnotaz are equipped with swords that means that this warriors are wealthy but they wear drab colored clothings?!
I think these warrior can easily afford more colorful clothings.
The celts where not the only one that produced textiles with tartan patterns.
Orda Khan
03-05-2005, 20:49
Things are certainly taking shape, these new units are superb. I too am waiting patiently to see the Horse Archer Nations but I have a request. Please make proper recurved bows as in these Baktrian units. As an archer who shoots both Hun and Mongol bows, I find the 'C' shaped bows that we see in the game so annoying.
Superb job so far guys, I really can't wait to load this Mod, it will be well worth the wait I am sure :smitten:
........Orda
Skilfingr
03-05-2005, 21:26
You are welcome to discuss this via pm or e-mail if you like.
I was a little irritated by your first post.
Feel free to contact me and naturally every bit of information you can come up with is welcomed.
Cheers
SaFe
I was irritated by the term sahsnotaz, wich referred me directly to the sax and sax warriors.
But I would really like to know your main sources regarding germanic units.
I told you about the Hjortspring find (that I just had in my mind). I would be very much interested in your sources. I would prefer archaeological sources, but I would also be happy with historical sources (although I will take with a grain of salt)
I too am waiting patiently to see the Horse Archer Nations but I have a request. Please make proper recurved bows as in these Baktrian units. As an archer who shoots both Hun and Mongol bows, I find the 'C' shaped bows that we see in the game so annoying.Naw, we were only going to give the recurve bows to foot units. Silly horse archers don't need 'em.
~:handball:
Hi guys,
Great job guys! Once again very nice screenshots. However I have a question regarding the doryophoroi. Isn't this a greek word? If so, why is it used to designate units from an eastern faction? Wouldn't a persian name be more appropriate?
Would you like "Eransahr Arshtbara" better?
Because that will be the name of the Parthian version of the unit . ~:)
You may have noticed some slight differences between the two screenshots Khelvan posted. That is because we will have two versions of "Bactrian Spearmen", one for Bactria (the upper screen) and one for Parthia (the lower one), which use different skins of the same model.
In the Hellenistic Bactrian kingdom these guys' name is the Greek doryphoroi. In Parthia, Eransahr Arshtbara.
Steppe Merc
03-06-2005, 02:03
Things are certainly taking shape, these new units are superb. I too am waiting patiently to see the Horse Archer Nations but I have a request. Please make proper recurved bows as in these Baktrian units. As an archer who shoots both Hun and Mongol bows, I find the 'C' shaped bows that we see in the game so annoying.
Of course we will. ~;) By the way, Khelvan was being sarcastic... if he was serious, I would hurt him, because I also badly want proper bows for my precious steppe units. ~D
By the way, Khelvan was being sarcastic... if he was serious, I would hurt him, because I also badly want proper bows for my precious steppe units. ~DYou're no fun! You should have let him squirm; he deserves it for seriously suggesting that we might not have recurve bows for the horse archers, when we have plainly made them for at least one unit already ;)
Why are the germanics clothed in drab textiles?
Example, the Sahsnotaz are equipped with swords that means that this warriors are wealthy but they wear drab colored clothings?!
I think these warrior can easily afford more colorful clothings.
The celts where not the only one that produced textiles with tartan patterns.
Has anyone read my post.
Or are you ignoring me because you think I am being arrogant ?!
This is not my intention to be arrogant or whatever.
I think i have a valid point and if I am wrong about the drab colors of the germanics please correct me.
I
I seem to remember Tacitus says that "there is no display whatsoever about their equipment - their shields alone are marked with diverse colours." Thus their slightly drab appearance.
As for the word for "sword", are you basing the language on west Germanic languages or east Germanic? I know the old Gothic word is something like "Hairus".
As another question, who exactly ARE the Germanic faction? Will they control all of the German tribes? Or are they going to represent one of the larger tribal confederations like the Suevi? If so, will there be the possibility to get interesting units by conquering other tribal regions?
Has anyone read my post.
Or are you ignoring me because you think I am being arrogant ?!
This is not my intention to be arrogant or whatever.
I think i have a valid point and if I am wrong about the drab colors of the germanics please correct me.
I
Hi TheTank,
no i'm not ignoring you, but sometimes private life gets in the way ~;)
So, i can just repeat Sprongly's post.
Unlike celtic warriors germanic tribesmen were not obsessed with bright colours.
Only their Harjanaz - Army Leader or their
Kuningaz - King ( “One of the kin" ) themselves worn red cloaks for example.
As red was very expensive to manifacture and also in later medieval times the colour for the nobles.
I seem to remember Tacitus says that "there is no display whatsoever about their equipment - their shields alone are marked with diverse colours." Thus their slightly drab appearance.
As for the word for "sword", are you basing the language on west Germanic languages or east Germanic? I know the old Gothic word is something like "Hairus".
As another question, who exactly ARE the Germanic faction? Will they control all of the German tribes? Or are they going to represent one of the larger tribal confederations like the Suevi? If so, will there be the possibility to get interesting units by conquering other tribal regions?
Hi Sprongly,
we are basing the language on proto-germanic which is much older than any gothic dialect.
For the word sword many meanings existed:
biljam, brandaz, heruz, sahs or swerdam only to mention a few.
You see that the germanics were not unimagitive concerning swords. ~;)
The question WHO the germanics are exactly are should come as a little surprise when we upload the mod - and b.t.w. khelvan will torture me to death if i spoil the surprise.
But let's say that the suebi/suevi federation is not unknown to us and other tribes will offer different and interesting units as well.~:)
Cheers
SaFe
If any help is needed with research for the Germanic faction, if it hasn't already been done, I'dbe happy to help out. My masters degree is actually in Celtic Civilisation and Classics, but Germanic culture is also a great area of interest for me.
Hi TheTank,
no i'm not ignoring you, but sometimes private life gets in the way ~;)
So, i can just repeat Sprongly's post.
Unlike celtic warriors germanic tribesmen were not obsessed with bright colours.
Only their Harjanaz - Army Leader or their
Kuningaz - King ( “One of the kin" ) themselves worn red cloaks for example.
As red was very expensive to manifacture and also in later medieval times the colour for the nobles.
I know that the germanics where more somber that the celts.
I don't want that the germanics are same colorful bunch of people like the Celts but they can use more color then they have now.
Maybe you can check this link to a image of a germanic warrior.
I like it but the shield is to "Viking Age" for me and way out of time frame.
But the clothes are nicely done.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/003a_Generic_Germanic.jpg
@TheTank
Tanks, this is a suebian axeman.
Nice picture.
We have something similar already in work.
Perhaps in one of the next news?
@TheTank
Tanks, this is a suebian axeman.
Nice picture.
We have something similar already in work.
Perhaps in one of the next news?
Wow that is good news
I hope the next update from Kelvan will reveal this unit.
I am also very curious for the units list of the germanics.
shifty157
03-06-2005, 23:36
If im still thinking straight those buildings are where the Olympic Games were held near Olympia. The temple of zeus (no not the world wonder) is there in the middle and i think thats the track stadium in the background.
do i still get a cookie?
I already gave out a cookie, but you got it right. :)
shifty157
03-07-2005, 02:52
oh. :(
i really wanted that cookie.
oh well. maybe next time.
Zalmoxis
03-07-2005, 06:31
Hey, I was wondering, how much of the Dacians have you guys completed?
How do you mean? Conceptually? Graphically? Other?
Skilfingr
03-07-2005, 08:52
I seem to remember Tacitus says that "there is no display whatsoever about their equipment - their shields alone are marked with diverse colours." Thus their slightly drab appearance.
I know this statement, but I think it's more related on their military equipment then to the colour of their clothing. Anyway, as long as we have no other statements of roman or greek writers or archaeological evidence regarding the colours of germanic people, we don't know.
Zalmoxis
03-07-2005, 09:23
How do you mean? Conceptually? Graphically? Other?
Graphically, and in terms of how the culture will be presented.
Skilfingr
03-07-2005, 09:47
Hi Sprongly,
we are basing the language on proto-germanic which is much older than any gothic dialect.
For the word sword many meanings existed:
biljam, brandaz, heruz, sahs or swerdam only to mention a few.
You see that the germanics were not unimagitive concerning swords. ~;)
BTW it's very curios, that they have much words for such a rare thing.
The question WHO the germanics are exactly are should come as a little surprise when we upload the mod - and b.t.w. khelvan will torture me to death if i spoil the surprise.
But let's say that the suebi/suevi federation is not unknown to us and other tribes will offer different and interesting units as well.~:)
Cheers
SaFe
I'm also very curious how you identify and localize germanic tribes around 270 given first (usable) records are from Tacitus (around 100 AD) and maybe Ceasar. The easiest way (and may be the only way) is to project the tribes of Tacitus back to 270 BC, which is not very precise as you can see a 200 years later with the forming of the franks, allemans and other new tribes as a political union. So maybe the Suebia were also a political union, because Tacitus says, that the Suebia consists of several (sub-) tribes. Or maybe the Suebia resolved into new tribes.
So I think it would be the best to have a single germanic faction (not the Suebia tribe or something). archeologists agree that the germanic culture evolved from the Jastorf-culture around 500 BC located in northern Germany and southern Denmark. From there it expanded to the area that Ceasar and Tacitus described later. So a single Germanic faction (with an appropriate territory) would be a more precise solution to the situation around 270 BC than the territory of of the Suebia around 50 BC. Unfortunatly this is no solution to the name problem. ~D And I fear, there is no and will no be a precise solution to this problem. :embarassed:
this post is not meant to depreciate someones work, but to discuss this issue. I would really appreciate a more open discussion than something like: "We have something in the pipeline" or "You will be surprised".
And I still want to hear your primary source. ~D
Short form:
There is no primary source - we use Tacitus as well as Caesar and others.
Also many archeology books.
I disagree with a united no-name faction, as we can definately use information concerning the differences the tribes offer us.
You can easily see the difference, in for example political structure and warfare between the chattii and the chaucii for example.
Yes - you are right, we don't know much about those tribes in 270 BC, but if you choose this way you can also delete the Aedui federation of the gauls(270 BC???) and many other things. Sometimes we have to project known informations back.
But in my opinion it is better to specualate a little for 270 BC and take the known facts of the germanics from the cimbrii up to the cheruscii(in timeframe)
Concerning your comment about open discussion:
We have long ago decided not to spoil everything at the beginning, but to lift the curtain when it is done.
Khelvan can perhaps describe the reasons for this better than i.
But:
Every input from you or others is much appreciated. Believe me - we are no "inner circle" that doesn't recognize other opinions.
If you look at the latest screenshot of the map, you will see that no germanics are settled on the left side of the rhine( Note: This map is a little outdated, especially for the germanic tribes, but fear not - there will be no Germania Superior or Inferior at the start of the game.)
Skilfingr
03-07-2005, 11:31
Short form:
There is no primary source - we use Tacitus as well as Caesar and others.
Also many archeology books.
I have access to a very good library (the library of the Roman-Germanic Commission http://www.dainst.org/abteilung.php?id=268), so if you can tell me which archeology books you use, I will take a look at them.
I disagree with a united no-name faction, as we can definately use information concerning the differences the tribes offer us.
You can easily see the difference, in for example political structure and warfare between the chattii and the chaucii for example.
Yes - you are right, we don't know much about those tribes in 270 BC, but if you choose this way you can also delete the Aedui federation of the gauls(270 BC???) and many other things. Sometimes we have to project known informations back.
But in my opinion it is better to specualate a little for 270 BC and take the known facts of the germanics from the cimbrii up to the cheruscii(in timeframe)
so far for realism - but I agree, as otherwise the game would probably loose much of it's attraction.
Concerning your comment about open discussion:
We have long ago decided not to spoil everything at the beginning, but to lift the curtain when it is done.
Khelvan can perhaps describe the reasons for this better than i.
But:
Every input from you or others is much appreciated. Believe me - we are no "inner circle" that doesn't recognize other opinions.
If you look at the latest screenshot of the map, you will see that no germanics are settled on the left side of the rhine( Note: This map is a little outdated, especially for the germanic tribes, but fear not - there will be no Germania Superior or Inferior at the start of the game.)
this is not nearly as productive as an open discussion. I don't want to offend you and others involved with this work, but I don't think that you (and the others) know everything concerning germanics - and I'm sure you agree. If so why produce a unit (or other parts of the mod) and discuss about it, when it's finished. This way you have to rework the unit or ignore the discussion and leave it as it is. Then, of course, you would fail to create a realistic mod.
Aymar de Bois Mauri
03-07-2005, 13:58
this is not nearly as productive as an open discussion. I don't want to offend you and others involved with this work, but I don't think that you (and the others) know everything concerning germanics - and I'm sure you agree. If so why produce a unit (or other parts of the mod) and discuss about it, when it's finished. This way you have to rework the unit or ignore the discussion and leave it as it is. Then, of course, you would fail to create a realistic mod.Because Europa Barbarorum has been in research mode since Jan 2004. We have amassed enormous amounts of historical data and have been discussing the faction implementations since that day. So, due to the amount of work involved, we have already defined many things that need not to be discussed. We are too far ahead of things to make radical changes that have long been decided. If we did the MOD wouldn't be released anytime soon.
Skilfingr
03-07-2005, 16:01
Because Europa Barbarorum has been in research mode since Jan 2004. We have amassed enormous amounts of historical data and have been discussing the faction implementations since that day. So, due to the amount of work involved, we have already defined many things that need not to be discussed.
I can't agree here. open discussion is always good, especially to improve great things. The linux-kernel wouldn't become that popular, if Linus decided not to go open source.
We are too far ahead of things to make radical changes that have long been decided. If we did the MOD wouldn't be released anytime soon.
I'm not requesting radical changes. If you have done your research properly there is no need for changes anyway.
If I do not agree with your opinion, convince me and I will shut up. To convince me is quite easy. Point me to a source, that verifies your opinion (as Spongly did with quotation of Tacitus regarding the colours of the clothing).
eadingas
03-07-2005, 16:07
The problem here is, we want to release a ready product as soon as possible. After release of public version, it will be open to discussion for anyone, and I'm sure we will listen to people very carefully then, as always, and we'll be correcting things from then on, according to discussion results.
Until then, having anyone and everyone involved in the work is counter-productive. Just look at any historical discussion on any internet forum: it very rarely leads to any effective results. We have to decide on some things right now and just stop discussion at a given point and make a product based on that, otherwise we will never reach anything.
Mind that this is all a pre-beta discussion of our mod. There will be mistakes and errors, no doubt, and you will all have plenty to discuss and talk about them once the beta is released. So please, I hope you'll think about what I wrote, and just be patient until then.
Aymar de Bois Mauri
03-07-2005, 16:28
I can't agree here. open discussion is always good, especially to improve great things. The linux-kernel wouldn't become that popular, if Linus decided not to go open source. I never said you can't discuss it freely. But you must consider that a lot of the implemented solutions won't change before the Beta.
I'm not requesting radical changes. If you have done your research properly there is no need for changes anyway.
If I do not agree with your opinion, convince me and I will shut up. To convince me is quite easy. Point me to a source, that verifies your opinion (as Spongly did with quotation of Tacitus regarding the colours of the clothing).I don't want to shut you up. I want you to understand that some things are already implemented and won't be changed now. Only later if there is justification for it. This is a deadline problem.
And, unfortunatelly, I cannot comment on the Germanics. It's not my territory.
Skilfingr
03-07-2005, 16:41
The problem here is, we want to release a ready product as soon as possible.
you sound like a business man ~:)
After release of public version, it will be open to discussion for anyone, and I'm sure we will listen to people very carefully then, as always, and we'll be correcting things from then on, according to discussion results.
so what is the difference in having first a public release and then open discussion to first discuss and then release? You can even save some work.
Until then, having anyone and everyone involved in the work is counter-productive. Just look at any historical discussion on any internet forum: it very rarely leads to any effective results. We have to decide on some things right now and just stop discussion at a given point and make a product based on that, otherwise we will never reach anything.
That's the way open source works and it works well (at least mostly ~D ).
Mind that this is all a pre-beta discussion of our mod. There will be mistakes and errors, no doubt, and you will all have plenty to discuss and talk about them once the beta is released. So please, I hope you'll think about what I wrote, and just be patient until then.
So it's an open beta? If so I'm a bit confused.
ready product - open beta :confused:
Skilfingr
03-07-2005, 16:51
sorry, I read your post after I made my last post.
I never said you can't discuss it freely. But you must consider that a lot of the implemented solutions won't change before the Beta.
I did not want to change anything before Beta (if the beta is coming in the next weeks - not months ~:) ). I'm sorry if I was unclear and/or misunderstand your comments.
I don't want to shut you up. I want you to understand that some things are already implemented and won't be changed now. Only later if there is justification for it. This is a deadline problem.
I'm happy with that.
And, unfortunatelly, I cannot comment on the Germanics. It's not my territory.
eadingas
03-07-2005, 17:21
you sound like a business man ~:)
You get that when you talk too much to Khelvan, our CEO ;)
So it's an open beta? If so I'm a bit confused.
ready product - open beta :confused:
Open to discussion, not open source :) Beta is a 'ready product' we aim for right now: we want to have as much stuff ready before it's released as possible.
Skilfingr, it's obvious that you spend alot of time on ancient Germanic subjects, and that you have strongly valued opinions...but......this is a game! Some people spend their entire lives devoted to the study of one culture, the EB mod team is walking a tight rope of making a playable mod while trying to re-create many cultures in a time-frame that is a bit short on exact information, and they are doing it on their own time.
I say let them have their shot, it's their effort. They have a goal set based on their original research, adjusting that goal based on new information should be their call, it's hard to hit a moving target.
Nice job EB team, your doing one hell of a job in my book, keep up the good work.
Subatai
Skilfingr
03-07-2005, 18:48
You get that when you talk too much to Khelvan, our CEO ;)
Open to discussion, not open source :) Beta is a 'ready product' we aim for right now: we want to have as much stuff ready before it's released as possible.
I haven't played with moding RTW, but I thought it's all something about editing text-, texture- and model-files. So, if you release a beta, I can virtually change everything. That way it is an open source beta.
what will be the symbol for the seleucids? would be nice if (lame) macedon gets the (lame) she-goat and (wicked) seleucid could get the (wicked) star
you sound like a business man ~:)Sometimes adding some business/project management practices to the creation of a mod increases the efficiency by many times. I use terms from business because I am a business person, and sometimes that rubs off.
Someone I respect greatly once told me: "If you want to BE professional, you must ACT professional." I think the way in which we have been putting together this mod will only benefit everyone who wants to play this mod, not act as a detriment.
so what is the difference in having first a public release and then open discussion to first discuss and then release? You can even save some work.The difference is that we won't be implementing any changes from these open discussions until after we have put together a beta. Note that I think eadingas may be misleading everyone - our beta will be a closed beta, not an open one, though it will consist of a (relatively) large testing team.
So, because we won't be implementing any changes, we must look at the two overriding reasons not to have these discussions: First, they are distracting and taking time away from doing the work we need to do to get the next version ready. Second, the more we talk about what will be going into the mod, the more we'll be losing the surprise factor we have tried so hard to cultivate.
There will be plenty of opportunity to get things changed once you have seen the EB team's interpretation of history, either through being a part of the beta test team, or afterward the first public release. However, we will be implementing only the EB team's vision until we have that beta version out to the testers. It is the most efficient way to get the work done, and we have more than enough delays and challenges as it is.
That's the way open source works and it works well (at least mostly ~D ). Linux is not an entertainment product. EB is an entertainment product. MUCH entertainment is derived from surprise. We use this to provide even more entertainment to our fans. Then we will later make changes, as the fans may have more information than the EB team.
So you get the best of both worlds.
Graphically, and in terms of how the culture will be presented.We have about 6 Dacian units now. In terms of the culture, it is hard to say. Conceptually we're near done, though of course implementing a culture consists of many different things.
Skilfingr
03-07-2005, 21:00
The difference is that we won't be implementing any changes from these open discussions until after we have put together a beta. Note that I think eadingas may be misleading everyone - our beta will be a closed beta, not an open one, though it will consist of a (relatively) large testing team.
I can't agree with that. A closed beta is almost useless (at least for me and every one that is not in the testing team). there can not be an open discussion about a closed beta. What can I tell about a beta, that I've seen or tested.
So, because we won't be implementing any changes, we must look at the two overriding reasons not to have these discussions: First, they are distracting and taking time away from doing the work we need to do to get the next version ready.
This might be true in short term (for the next version), but in the end (your final product - the one most people will agree with) you will need much more time.
Second, the more we talk about what will be going into the mod, the more we'll be losing the surprise factor we have tried so hard to cultivate.
I think I'm old enough to decide myself whether I wanted to be surprised or I want an good and realistic mod.
There will be plenty of opportunity to get things changed once you have seen the EB team's interpretation of history, either through being a part of the beta test team, or afterward the first public release.
I always thought EB wanted to be a mod that brings realism to RTW - not EB team's interpretation of history. If thats the goal of EB I was completely wrong and I apologize.
However, we will be implementing only the EB team's vision until we have that beta version out to the testers.
Thats ok, but make it an open beta, so all can discuss about what is good and what is not so good, so it can be improved.
It is the most efficient way to get the work done, and we have more than enough delays and challenges as it is.
Again, I can't agree with that. Why should it be more efficient to implement first, then listen, what consumers want (to talk in business language) and then rework parts of your work. Why this is more efficient? It's more efficient of course, if you don't plan to do changes to your "product" anyway!
I thought EB was created, because Creative Assembly was not willingly to listen to the members of EB to make RTW more realistic regarding the barbarian factions.
To me, it's seems, you are doing exactly the same!
Linux is not an entertainment product. EB is an entertainment product. MUCH entertainment is derived from surprise.
This might be true for an adventure or a role playing game, but certainly not for an strategy game.
Again - I'm old enough to decide myself whether I wanted to be surprised or I want an good and realistic mod.
Skilfingr
03-07-2005, 21:04
And I forgot to say: I'm very dissappointed about your statement and I hope not all members of EB are thinking the same way
I can't agree with that. A closed beta is almost useless (at least for me and every one that is not in the testing team). there can not be an open discussion about a closed beta. What can I tell about a beta, that I've seen or tested. So you would choose not to be a part of the closed beta? We haven't gathered together a group for it, yet. I guess you are old enough to make that choice.
This might be true in short term (for the next version), but in the end (your final product - the one most people will agree with) you will need much more time.And the final product is not our first public release.
I think I'm old enough to decide myself whether I wanted to be surprised or I want an good and realistic mod.I am happy for you. However, we are old enough to decide as a group how we wish to present the mod. By your statement this implies that if we don't have open discussion, the game won't be accurate? You must have a high opinion of yourself, or a low opinion of the EB team.
I always thought EB wanted to be a mod that brings realism to RTW - not EB team's interpretation of history. If thats the goal of EB I was completely wrong and I apologize.No matter what we do, whether it be the EB team or the entire RTW community, it will still be someone's interpretation of history. Do you really not understand the difference between an initial public release, and a completed mod? Do I have to explain this to you? That we will make changes to our initial release, and that the end goal of the mod is historical accuracy?
I don't suppose an explanation of the concept of change control will be helpful.
Thats ok, but make it an open beta, so all can discuss about what is good and what is not so good, so it can be improved.For reasons which, based on your interpretations of what I have said above, you won't care about, a closed beta is better for the mod.
Again, I can't agree with that. Why should it be more efficient to implement first, then listen, what consumers want (to talk in business language) and then rework parts of your work. Why this is more efficient? It's more efficient of course, if you don't plan to do changes to your "product" anyway!So, only the people that play the mod, and not the mod team, have historical information? Ahh hell with it, what are we bothering to make this mod for? I'll tell you what. Why don't YOU define the mod for us, and we'll just make it exactly how you want it. Is that better?
I thought EB was created, because Creative Assembly was not willingly to listen to the members of EB to make RTW more realistic regarding the barbarian factions.EB was created because the EB team members wanted to play a more accurate, realistic game than what CA introduced. We've spent a lot of time on our research. We're putting together a mod based on that research. The mod is being put together in phases. We are in the implementation phase now. The time for comments is once we have that research implemented. If you feel you have something offer, why not see if you can join our effort. The fact is that we are not at a point where we can go back to the drawing board on our implementation. Once the closed beta is out then we will have the time and resources to revisit some of the choices we have made. Now is not the time.
This might be true for an adventure or a role playing game, but certainly not for an strategy game. Again - I'm old enough to decide myself whether I wanted to be surprised or I want an good and realistic mod.This has nothing to do with the type of game it is, and everything to do with creating a longing to see the end product of the work we're doing. Since you're old enough, you are free not to find the surprise of seeing new things you didn't know about implemented fun, when you first get the mod.
Skilfingr
03-07-2005, 22:34
So you would choose not to be a part of the closed beta? We haven't gathered together a group for it, yet. I guess you are old enough to make that choice.
It doesn't matter if I'm part of the testing team or you or Will Smith. The point is to have an open beta, so everyone can participate the development. Of course you will get request about flying pegasai and so on. But remember, there always some, that knows more than you and me. So why discourage them.
And the final product is not our first public release.
I am happy for you. However, we are old enough to decide as a group how we wish to present the mod.
as eadingas stated, you are ceo of EB, and so you must speak for every member of EB
By your statement this implies that if we don't have open discussion, the game won't be accurate?
If you had any clue about history (especially the part we are talking about) you would know there is no absolute "truth". Look back, what archeologist and historian thought 20 or even 50 ago about the things we arguing. Much has changed and will so in the future - and thats very encouraging.
You must have a high opinion of yourself, or a low opinion of the EB team.
That's not true! But if we combine our knowledge, we can come more close to the "truth" than any of us alone.
No matter what we do, whether it be the EB team or the entire RTW community, it will still be someone's interpretation of history.
Of course it will. But I thought it should be the best interpretation of the knowledge we have (and yes, of course in 20 or maybe even 10 years they call all of us fools ~D )
Do you really not understand the difference between an initial public release, and a completed mod? Do I have to explain this to you? That we will make changes to our initial release, and that the end goal of the mod is historical accuracy?
I do. But I do not understand, why you have first a closed development and then, after your "public" release, have an open development. For me it just makes no sense.
I don't suppose an explanation of the concept of change control will be helpful.
For reasons which, based on your interpretations of what I have said above, you won't care about, a closed beta is better for the mod.
for the first reason: I can understand you somewhat. But the second reason is ridiculous. we are all adult man (and of course woman). If someone want's to be surprised, then let him. if not it's his decision.
So, only the people that play the mod, and not the mod team, have historical information?
where I have said anything like this?
my point is: there is always someone, that knows more than you and me. If your research and work is good, then it's ok and no one will argue. And of course no one must fear. in fact, I'm pretty sure that your research and work are very good - so why this conspiracy. if there is something wrong - lets talk about and everything is fine.
Ahh hell with it, what are we bothering to make this mod for? I'll tell you what. Why don't YOU define the mod for us, and we'll just make it exactly how you want it. Is that better?
No it don't. And I never suggest something like this. All I want is an true open discussion. And I'm pretty sure there would be less discussion than you think.
EB was created because the EB team members wanted to play a more accurate, realistic game than what CA introduced. We've spent a lot of time on our research
I'm pretty sure about this.
We're putting together a mod based on that research. The mod is being put together in phases. We are in the implementation phase now. The time for comments is once we have that research implemented. If you feel you have something offer, why not see if you can join our effort.
I would be happy to help you with my limited knowledge.
The fact is that we are not at a point where we can go back to the drawing board on our implementation.
Nobody wants you to scrap the work you've done so far. Just a little more open development.
Once the closed beta is out then we will have the time and resources to revisit some of the choices we have made. Now is not the time.
this won't help me nor other people not involved with the testing. don't you see this point. you may have a large group of testers - you will always probably miss some that have more knowledge then you or me about a specific culture.
I really have to stop now - my girl friend is getting impatiently ~D
- I am not the "CEO" - eadingas was joking. I am merely a project manager. And only one of two. All of EB creative decisions are made by group vote.
- EB voted to limit membership, and shut down discussions until we release some info. The more members that joined, the more discussion we had about old decisions, the slower we were getting things out the door. I speak on behalf of the decision that EB made, not for myself. There will always be dissent in such a large group, so I can never speak for everyone. But everyone accepts that when a vote has been made, this is the direction we take. People who refuse to follow the will of the group as a whole, because they want their own interpretations of things in the mod regardless of the team's decision, tend to leave EB quickly.
- EB has decided for various reasons that a closed beta will be better for, primarily, the speed on getting to a public release, and the quality of beta feedback. There are no controls around an open beta; it is, by definition, open to anyone and everyone. We get much more valuable, focused, and timely feedback from a closed group. Experience on this mod and other mod teams has shown us this. I could go into more reasons in much more detail, if you wanted an explanation, but a debate on this serves no purpose.
- The EB team is following a controlled series of internal releases, followed by a closed beta, followed by a public release. Each phase has a reason why it exists. Even internally there are times when debate is shut down and we say "ok, this is what we're doing for version X." Now is not a time for historical debate. There will be other times for this.
- EB will always be open for historical corrections, at the appropriate time and in the appropriate place. The closed beta will be a great opportunity for a large group of people to provide just this feedback. So again will the public release. The team has chosen the best way we believe we can get the best version out to the public as quickly as possible. We are committed to supporting the mod and making it better for as long as it takes.
For various reasons, some listed above, new membership on the team has been more heavily limited recently. If you (or anyone) is interested in joining, please send me a PM with info on how you think you can help us. For the beta testing, we'll be announcing where and how to apply in the near future.
Proper Gander
03-07-2005, 23:08
@Skilfingr
i did not read all of the :duel:, but i think i got the main points.
give the EB and specifically kehlvan a break.
i think they are all handling this very well. there is a limit and not everyone can be pleased. a closed beta is better, for the sake of the mod. if the there are just a few 'chosen' beta testers that know what they are talking about and what is manageable it is more efficient, than having every 'moron' (sorry to put it this way) put their word in.
it would be an awful lot more time consuming to make a good mod with an overwhelming load of bad criticism.
as for the surprise and the "i'm old enough to decide" part.
i also consider myself old enough to decide on how much information i want. and i would prefer a surprise or two. so for me they are handling this well too.
you're not the only person who checks this forum, think of other people apart from yourself. it doesn't hurt.
Shigawire
03-08-2005, 12:59
But I do not understand, why you have first a closed development and then, after your "public" release, have an open development. For me it just makes no sense.
It makes perfect sense to me. Khelvan is a technocrat. He knows how to make operations run fluently, with as little b.s. as possible. Indeed, this whole issue is an ideological question. You may think that your ideology of "open source" is superior. In some cases it may be so.. But it appears to me that your wish is that this "open source" ideology is something that should be imposed on every such project that exists. You need to consider the other ramifications of an open source beginning. A closed project does not require as much deliberation as an open project. We want to give people a playable beta ASAP. You think this is a bad thing? If we'd been open source, this would take much much longer time.. It is the same old question of Mob rule vs. Executive rule. Executive rule may be based on flawed judgements, but it is far more efficient and quick in its implementation. Mob rule may or may not come closer to the truth, that depends wholly on the Mob's education. But the execution of the project itself will take a tremendously long time due to the deliberations. Not to mention, we'd be overflowed by useless comments and questions by 90% of the people..
In order to get a playable beta out as soon as quickly, we must take the Executive route. And later shift to a more Democratic route. It makes sense to me.. There have been many people who have tried to force/coerce us to follow their "perfect" socialistic/democratic ideologies. I just think it's arrogant to consider one's own opinion to be the absolute truth, and not to consider other people's opinions. Like the valued opinion of Proper Gander here. We certainly don't consider our opinions to be absolute truth. The wish for openness will be granted when the beta is open.
When the beta is open, there will be more than enough time to improve the accuracy. Patience shouldn't be a problem when you're mature.
Southern Hunter
03-08-2005, 13:02
A quick note to say how much I am enjoying the updates on EB, and how much I look forward to playing the mod. I think CA have done a wonderful job with the game engine, and the mod will make the game a lot more satisfactory as both a historically interesting and fun game.
I enjoy playing R:TR for the moment, because it is the best available historical mod, and have only recently paid any attention to EB. The attention to detail on the history and units is stunning, more than I could have wished for.
My initial plans were to come over here (forum) and try and suggest any reforms that I thought might be needed, but I am now quite confident that the team will get it 99% correct, and I look forward to the beta or public release.
Thanks to the EB team,
Cheers,
Hunter
There is a reason why 90% of all truly "Open" projects fail. That reason is because there is so much input and discussion that no work is ever completed. It is the same reason that a true democracy is more akin to anarchy than anything else. Limit's and boundaries are necessities for any organism to survive, let alone succeed.
Khelvan and the rest of the team recognized the reality of this early on, and clearly acknowledges this when Khelvan says;
"EB voted to limit membership, and shut down discussions until we release some info. The more members that joined, the more discussion we had about old decisions, the slower we were getting things out the door."
The EB mod is the "product" of the team. As disappointed as some people may be that there isn't MORE discussion on the front-end, how much disappointment do you think there would be if EB were never completed because everyone wanted to give their opinion before the team could do anything?
Skilfingr, you started posting here less than a week ago. The Trivium Organization and the development of the Europa Barbarorum mod have been in process now for MORE than a year! Khelvan states clearly that if you feel that you can contribute something of value to the team, PM him with how you think you can help. If you just want to be able to voice your opinion, without actually doing anything, then leave them alone and let them continue to DO the work.
To the entire EB team, your efforts have garnered you more support than you realize. Keep up the good work and know that the entire community is looking forward to seeing the results of you efforts!
Proper Gander
03-08-2005, 23:35
i can only second Obake, he speaks out of my heart and expresse things i wouldn't have found the words for. ~D
PSYCHO V
03-09-2005, 00:23
Thanks Obake. Most kind.
Good to see you around btw. Missing you in the .com dungeons
Skilfingr
03-09-2005, 10:40
more discussion about this is pointless, as no one can convince the other and an open source vs colsed source discussion is really off topic. so lets stop and everybody can do more important things.
If you (or anyone) is interested in joining, please send me a PM with info on how you think you can help us. For the beta testing, we'll be announcing where and how to apply in the near future.
I consider your offer, but right now, I've not enough time to do extensive research. (I hope this changes in two weeks).
Skilfingr
03-09-2005, 10:55
Skilfingr, you started posting here less than a week ago. The Trivium Organization and the development of the Europa Barbarorum mod have been in process now for MORE than a year!
I'm sorry for that, but actually I do not play computer games very much. A friend pointed me to RTW and liked it, despite it's flaws. Then around a week ago I found EB and I was very excited about it, because we have the same objective (make RTW more realistic and precise to history).
To the entire EB team, your efforts have garnered you more support than you realize. Keep up the good work and know that the entire community is looking forward to seeing the results of you efforts!
I'm sure before you take my vote seriously I have to back up my claims. But that will take me at least one or two full days of research in the library. I hope in two weeks I have the time to do it.
So long!
Sargon of Akkad
03-09-2005, 17:38
Skilfingr- Enough already, contribute what you have to contribute, but dont pester the good people. It serves no purpose.
"I'm sure before you take my vote seriously I have to back up my claims. But that will take me at least one or two full days of research in the library. I hope in two weeks I have the time to do it."
Well thats good news. Id be very interested to see any historical sources on the germanic tribes (of which i know very little) that you have to post.
On the latest new post i have a few random questions:
Is the hat of the Persian/Baktrian spearmen at all related to the traditional afghan 'Pakol' (as worn by the Northern Alliance/Mujahideen)? I know it seems pretty unlikely but the resemblance is striking (and afghanistan is known as something of a timeless country).
http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1550000/images/_1552994_fah150.jpg
Also is the armour worn by the Median cavalry at all related to the Sarmatian 'Hoof armour' (as described in this Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatian) ), quoting Pausanias-
"Their breastplates they make in the following fashion. Each man keeps many mares, since the land is not divided into private allotments, nor does it bear any thing except wild trees, as the people are nomads. These mares they not only use for war, but also sacrifice them to the local gods and eat them for food. Their hoofs they collect, clean, split, and make from them as it were python scales. Whoever has never seen a python must at least have seen a pine-cone still green. He will not be mistaken if he liken the product from the hoof to the segments that are seen on the pine-cone. These pieces they bore and stitch together with the sinews of horses and oxen, and then use them as breastplates that are as handsome and strong as those of the Greeks. For they can withstand blows of missiles and those struck in close combat."
Again i only ask because it looks roughly how i would imagine 'hoof armour' to look. And if this is not such armour, is such armour being considered for the sarmatians?
BTW congratulations to Spartan Warrior, Alin and Webbird on their fantastic looking units ~:cheers:
ps- the other stuff looks pretty damn hot too ~:grouphug:
Skilfingr, I don't think there is any need for you to apologize. Your enthusiasm for the EB project is clearly evident, and enthusiasm is not something to apologize for.
I also realize that your enthusiasm in large measure revolves around the historical accuracy of this mod, and you apparantly have a firm intellectual grounding in this historical period, with access to more detailed records.
What I think you do not yet trust is that the EB mod team have the same enthusiasm for their project that you do. Nor do I think you trust that they have done as much research as you think should be done to ensure historical integrity.
This is not a bad thing, but at this point in THEIR development of the mod, it makes no sense for them to go back to the beginning again to ensure that everyone who is interested in the mod is happy. They are well beyond that and are now implementing their decisions. The reality is that not everyone is going to be 100% happy, but I for one am confident that their efforts are going to result in a mod that will more accurately present this period of time in a format that is still enjoyable to play.
Psycho, good to see you too mate. I have to admit to enjoying some time outside of the dungeon on my part!
PG, different sides of the same coin...... as per usual! ~;)
Steppe Merc
03-09-2005, 23:32
And I forgot to say: I'm very dissappointed about your statement and I hope not all members of EB are thinking the same way.
Khelvan speaks for us, as we all decided to close our discussions, for many reasons. I my self have been with this group longer than Khelvan, one of the first. I was working on this before RTW even came out! But nothing got done until we closed our forums, and prevented extrenious things getting in the way. Because for every person like you, that actually cares about history, their are a dozen more that care little if anything for history, and hurt rather than help the process.
What I think you do not yet trust is that the EB mod team have the same enthusiasm for their project that you do. Nor do I think you trust that they have done as much research as you think should be done to ensure historical integrity.
Exactly. And while some people do have historical intrests in mind, others just want a "C00L" game, and their comments are less than unhelpful.
Also is the armour worn by the Median cavalry at all related to the Sarmatian 'Hoof armour' (as described in this Wikipedia article ), quoting Pausanias-
Sort of... I don't believe this armor is of horn or hoof per se, but all scale armor works on the same idea, be it bronze or scale.
Again i only ask because it looks roughly how i would imagine 'hoof armour' to look. And if this is not such armour, is such armour being considered for the sarmatians?
Yup! I'm almost certaint we do indeed have some of the earlier units wearing horn armor (it's essentially the same as the hoof, as both were used by poorer nomadic tribes.)
I'll try to answer a couple of questions...
Is the hat of the Persian/Baktrian spearmen at all related to the traditional afghan 'Pakol' (as worn by the Northern Alliance/Mujahideen)? I know it seems pretty unlikely but the resemblance is striking (and afghanistan is known as something of a timeless country).
Well, the Baktrian Spearmen are wearing a variant of the "polos" a widespread type of headgear at the time. I am uncertain about the relationships between the Polos and the Pakol. However, I have read claims that the Pakol represents the survival/descendant of the "Kausia", the traditional Macedonian headgear, brought to Afghanistan by Alexander and his lads. Hellenistic kings of Baktria appeared wearing the kausia on coins they issued. If you think the resemblance between Polos and Pakol is striking, check out the kausias shown in the links below...
http://www.insecula.com/oeuvre/photo_ME0000086964.html
http://www.wildwinds.com/coins/greece/baktria/kings/antimachos_I/
Also is the armour worn by the Median cavalry at all related to the Sarmatian 'Hoof armour' (as described in this Wikipedia article), quoting Pausanias-
Steppe Merc mostly answered this. The armor of the Median cavalry is supposed to be made of bronze scales. Honestly, I'd guess that hoof would have a different hue.
Again i only ask because it looks roughly how i would imagine 'hoof armour' to look. And if this is not such armour, is such armour being considered for the sarmatians?
Steppe Merc is quite correct: regardless of the specific material used for the scales (and there was some diversity, iron, bronze, horn, hoof, hardened leather...), all scale armor would share some similarities. In EB a good number of units employ scale armor and all the variants in materials and details of design that would be adequate according to our sources are being contemplated.
What? The only screen I´ve seen of the Thorakitai Argyraspidai, they´re equipped with chainmail with Galatian/Celtic influences...... :dizzy2:
Maybe, I´ve missed something?
What? The only screen I´ve seen of the Thorakitai Argyraspidai, they´re equipped with chainmail with Galatian/Celtic influences...... :dizzy2:
Maybe, I´ve missed something?
Nope, I was confusing them with some other chaps. Sorry. :embarassed: I've edited my previous post to avoid further misleading innocent ppl...
Aha! Fess up! :whip:
Damn...thought I had ya.......:no:
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