Rodion Romanovich
03-16-2005, 10:25
I haven't seen this discussed elsewhere but I might be wrong, if so I apologize for posting this again:
I'd like to know how rebels will be implemented in EB. In R:TW it's pretty ridiculous, unrealistic, and of course tedious gameplay with 1000 brigand armies moving around where most of the battles in the campaign are actually turkey shoots vs brigand with 0-10 own losses and 500 enemy casualties. On the other hand, it'd be boring, and unrealistic, if rebels didn't play a major role in the mod, and if no troops would be needed behind the border areas. As I see it, the most realistic and fun way of implementing rebels would be to make the appearances of rebel armies more rare, but making rebellions larger when they happen. That'd finally force the player to keep not just 4 cav units but entire legion(s) even in areas that were conquered a long time ago, which is realistic.
Some historical examples of importance of rebellions:
* Teutoburg forest: the romans started pincer movements into germania but had to abort the operation due to a rebellion in Illyria. 5 legions had to be moved in order to stop the rebellion. This gave the germans time to prepare themselves, and when the operations towards germania could be launched again, they could defeat Varus in the teutoburg forest. If they hadn't recieved this extra time they would probably have failed, or at least their victory would maybe have been a pyrrhic victory rather than a slaughter.
* Trajan's Parthian war: Trajan never defeated parthia. He moved in and occupied Ctesiphon but the parthians never met him in the field, instead they retreated from the roman gigantic army of 10 legions and around 100,000 auxiliaries. If he had continued he might have been able to crush parthia, and thus eliminate the only real rival to the roman empire in that period, but a rebellion forced him to return west. When part of the gigantic roman army was gone, most of the cities revolted and slaughtered plenty of romans. Hadrian had to move the border back to where it was before the war, and the losses after the second dacian war (which was a revolt) as well as the losses of the parthian war where so huge it forced rome to recruit legionaries in provinces too (rather than just in Latium), and more auxilia from the provinces, which meant less loyal troops with lower morale and will to defend rome. After the parthian war the romans started losing ground. The rebellion that called Trajan back from the war was crucial here - even though roman casualties were small, the opening of a second front played an important role. Most rebellions often mean cutting off the retreat and reinforcements path and therefore, if they're strong enough to beat the cut off army, can turn pretty nasty for the conqueror they rebelled against.
* There have been many rebellions where rome has lost more than 1 legion, which is pretty much considering that they had around 20-30 legions for most of the time. Cynoskephalae was for example a rebellion and even though romans won they took recieved many casualties. Spartacus managed to defeat several roman armies before his defeat at Silarus river. The guerilla warfare in north africa was costly for the romans, and took many years to win. Spain saw some revolts as well, as did Gaul, although most gallic revolts where pretty easily beaten. The war Caesar vs Vercingetorix war could be seen as half-rebellion half war.
In general I'd like rebels to be an important factor in conquered areas and if EB would make it tricky to pacify newly conquered areas. In return, for balancing AND realism, it would be nice with a feature where small towns with small garrisons would (unless the conqueror has made himself known as a cruel exterminator) surrender immediately when armies move up to the city rather than fight a battle that'll no doubt be a slaughter. In short - small cities should be easier to conquer but also easier to lose. I'd like if EB changed garrison public order bonus to be based on troops quality rather than garrison size so that for example some 100 legionaries and 50 cavs in the garrison would be worth more for loyalty than 500 peasants. Another nice feature would be if rebellions would grow larger and larger the more successful they've been and the longer the player waits before suppressing them.
I'd like to know how rebels will be implemented in EB. In R:TW it's pretty ridiculous, unrealistic, and of course tedious gameplay with 1000 brigand armies moving around where most of the battles in the campaign are actually turkey shoots vs brigand with 0-10 own losses and 500 enemy casualties. On the other hand, it'd be boring, and unrealistic, if rebels didn't play a major role in the mod, and if no troops would be needed behind the border areas. As I see it, the most realistic and fun way of implementing rebels would be to make the appearances of rebel armies more rare, but making rebellions larger when they happen. That'd finally force the player to keep not just 4 cav units but entire legion(s) even in areas that were conquered a long time ago, which is realistic.
Some historical examples of importance of rebellions:
* Teutoburg forest: the romans started pincer movements into germania but had to abort the operation due to a rebellion in Illyria. 5 legions had to be moved in order to stop the rebellion. This gave the germans time to prepare themselves, and when the operations towards germania could be launched again, they could defeat Varus in the teutoburg forest. If they hadn't recieved this extra time they would probably have failed, or at least their victory would maybe have been a pyrrhic victory rather than a slaughter.
* Trajan's Parthian war: Trajan never defeated parthia. He moved in and occupied Ctesiphon but the parthians never met him in the field, instead they retreated from the roman gigantic army of 10 legions and around 100,000 auxiliaries. If he had continued he might have been able to crush parthia, and thus eliminate the only real rival to the roman empire in that period, but a rebellion forced him to return west. When part of the gigantic roman army was gone, most of the cities revolted and slaughtered plenty of romans. Hadrian had to move the border back to where it was before the war, and the losses after the second dacian war (which was a revolt) as well as the losses of the parthian war where so huge it forced rome to recruit legionaries in provinces too (rather than just in Latium), and more auxilia from the provinces, which meant less loyal troops with lower morale and will to defend rome. After the parthian war the romans started losing ground. The rebellion that called Trajan back from the war was crucial here - even though roman casualties were small, the opening of a second front played an important role. Most rebellions often mean cutting off the retreat and reinforcements path and therefore, if they're strong enough to beat the cut off army, can turn pretty nasty for the conqueror they rebelled against.
* There have been many rebellions where rome has lost more than 1 legion, which is pretty much considering that they had around 20-30 legions for most of the time. Cynoskephalae was for example a rebellion and even though romans won they took recieved many casualties. Spartacus managed to defeat several roman armies before his defeat at Silarus river. The guerilla warfare in north africa was costly for the romans, and took many years to win. Spain saw some revolts as well, as did Gaul, although most gallic revolts where pretty easily beaten. The war Caesar vs Vercingetorix war could be seen as half-rebellion half war.
In general I'd like rebels to be an important factor in conquered areas and if EB would make it tricky to pacify newly conquered areas. In return, for balancing AND realism, it would be nice with a feature where small towns with small garrisons would (unless the conqueror has made himself known as a cruel exterminator) surrender immediately when armies move up to the city rather than fight a battle that'll no doubt be a slaughter. In short - small cities should be easier to conquer but also easier to lose. I'd like if EB changed garrison public order bonus to be based on troops quality rather than garrison size so that for example some 100 legionaries and 50 cavs in the garrison would be worth more for loyalty than 500 peasants. Another nice feature would be if rebellions would grow larger and larger the more successful they've been and the longer the player waits before suppressing them.