Gun vs Katana

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Hell yeah! (http://www.compfused.com/directlink/252/)

~:cheers:

[Mablung]

~:eek: Holy hell! That is awesome! :dizzy2: I had to watch it several times to get what I was seeing!

[tool Dude]

Man!! Awsome!!

Ma friend had told me that he had watched Discovery Channel (if Im not mistaken) where a M-16 gun or even a powerful tank machinegun's bullets cant even break a single katana blade and I would be suprisingly shock if tha bullets can cut into half too!!

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Another demonstration of the sharpness of a katana:

http://www.compfused.com/directlink/408/

[tool Dude]

Sharpness is tha main thing bout a samurai sword especially to cut their enemies body's into pieces for easier meal to tha wild animals!

[Uesugi Kenshin]

It is amazing how sharp Katanas are. It cut the target in two and left it standing for another cut.... Amazing.

[metatron]

The same show later demonstrated a katana against a .50 M2 machine gun. It lasted seven rounds before breaking in half.

[Byzantine Prince]

The most amazing thing about katanas is the fact that you can bend them with your bare hands. They are extremely flexible like that. In another way though they are invincable. I wonder though, could a normal european sword do the same?

[Togakure]

You'd have to be pretty darn strong to bend a katana with your bare hands, though they can be snapped very easily if they are lodged in wood and then twisted/bent with weight/force. They can also break very easily upon impact with another weapon if the angle is incorrect.

Note that the impressive strength lies primarily in the forging/folding of the steel. Many of the mock katanas that you can buy for $400-$1000 dollars here and there are forged, but not forged and folded. These katanas do not possess this impressive strength. Forged and folded blades are available, made for cutting, and run between $700-$5000 ($4000 and up for custom-designed blades).

Bugei makes some nice cutting blades: http://www.bugei.com

My Katana is of the very popular and widely available Golden Oriole style, but was made by Bugei, forged and folded, from Swedish powdered steel. I have done a bit of Tameshigiri with it and it cuts very nicely. Bugei does not normally make the Golden Oriole; someone special-ordered 30 of them and then didn't follow through, so Bugei made them publically available for $700 each. I snatched one up as the price was right (good cutting blades normally start around $1000). The difference between mine and the common Golden Oriole is that it is forged and folded SPS, whereas the common Paul Chen blades are forged 440 steel.

Do handle all blades with extreme care! One of my best friends came over after I'd gotten my blade and asked to inspect it. It was sitting on a stand on my fireplace mantle and I was in the process of moving, so there were boxes in front of it on the floor. My friend, a 2nd degree black belt in Shotokan karate and a brown belt in Uechi Ryu karate, all too reverently leaned over the boxes and took the sword down, grasping it by the saya (scabbard) only (without placing his thumb over the Tsuba (guard), which he should have done). I had been drawing with it a lot, so it no longer stuck firmly in the scabbard (which is desireable for a practical blade). He made the mistake of tipping it a little the wrong way, and it started to slide out. Appalled that he was about to drop the blade of his friend's katana, my buddy snatched the sliding blade with his bare hand--and proceeded to almost sever four fingers. Blood fountained everywhere; it was quite a mess. But, he did manage to prevent the sword from falling, which he proudly pointed out afterward (he is an extremist when it comes to custom and being martially "proper"). Fortunately his fingers healed up after a month or so, but keyboarding was a major pain for a while. Do be careful ... .

[Byzantine Prince]

I saw a program on TV about professional japanese sword making and the guy that making them said "now you woudln't think this is possible with a sword *starts bending it*, but they are actually quite flexible". It didn't look very hard to do. I don't know why you can't do it with your sword. Maybe your is thicker or something.

It's really amazing how they use over 40 different types of stones to make them sharp. Very interesting what long tradition can accomplish over time without any real high tech.

BTW does Bugei have those nice "stick" like disguised swords? Forgot the name for them.

[Togakure]

Are you refering to shirasaya? Shirasaya are essentially blades that haven't been formally mounted. They are temporarily housed in a very plain wooden saya and fitted with a simple wooden handle (with no guard). I have always thought they looked cool, but they aren't meant to be used in this state. Shirasaya are simply a means of storing a blade until it can be fitted properly. Yes, Bugei can fit blades in shirasaya.

If you are refering to "sword canes" like the one that the TV character Zatoichi carries, then no, I don't think Bugei offers one (though you could probably talk them into making one as a custom order if you were willing to fork out between $3000-$5000).

An interesting point: I've read that it takes about 15 years of dedicated training in Japan to become officially certified to professionally fit blades. Obviously, this process takes place after a blade has been forged/folded and finished. The making of a "real" katana is truly an amazing process, and the result a remarkable work of art--"soul of the samurai," etc.

[Irinami]

That video isn't really that amazing.

The rounds fired at it are lead, a very soft metal. You could cut through a bullet with your kitchen knives, even the butter knives. Don't believe me? Get some lead "sinkers" in the fishing section of your sporting goods store/sporting goods section of your department store. It'll take some work, but that's partly because you're not moving your knife at around 1200 feet per second (it's the same as moving the bullet that fast, in the end), the normal muzzle velocity of a 9mmP round.

The sword is also only being held at one end, which means it is free to flex when struck. If it were being held by a vice at the top, too, you might see it break... but probably not, because from that angle you're firing your round at 1-2 inches of high-grade steel. The round is going to ricochet, and it does--to both sides of the blade.

You put that sword in a vise at the top and bottom, and fire on it from the side. Then it'll be a relevant demonstration... except that steel plates thinner than a katana blade will stop a 9mmP round. :dizzy2:

[Uesugi Kenshin]

I read an article on Katana nmaking and if it is to be trusted it said that the high carbon content made them strong as well and the main reason for the folding was impurities in the steel, they were folded like 12 times or so. This would create a lot of layers and may help make the Katan stronger but it was mainly to weed out imperfections.
If we really want to stress a Katana we should get an illegal Tungsten bullet coated in Teflon and made into an armor piercing point. Then fire a high velocity high calibre gun at it. Fun!
Even though the lead is soft it would cause a very large amount of force to be transmitted into the Katana, even with the softness of lead the high speed the bullet travels at will still gaurantee a lot of damage. Why else would steel armor be easily penetrated by high calibre and relatively low velocity balls?

[Shambles]

There are 2 seecrets to the katana

1 Fold the mettal over and over and Hit tit till its the shape you want,

2 cover the new sword with layers of clay, difrent amounts of clay for the difrent parts of the sword, "this means the steel heats to difrent teperatures at difrent parts"

this enshures you get a Strong back to the sword which gives it its strength,
and a soft blade edge so you can sharpen,

katanas rule, and compared to the old musket / flint lock guns its in a totaly difrent leage, after all you can still use a sword in heavy rain,

But in all honesty, if there was a guy a mile away with a .50 cal anti tank sniper rifle,
I doubt a my sword would save me :)

[Irinami]

It's a matter of speed of transfer, for one. If the energy is transferred while there's still a mass left then yes, it'll penetrate (that's a huge simplification). There's also the matter that you have lead ball, and jacketed lead ball. Copper-jacketed rounds are pretty common, and though copper is softer than steel it will still help to penetrate steel, since copper is harder than lead. The harder the jacket, the more easily it will penetrate. But then we have a problem.

A bullet fits a barrel. That's how you get pressure behind it. When the round is fired, your bullet actually expands and fits into the rifling grooves. With a lead round, this is no problem. Lead being softer than the steel of the barrel, guess which one gives way first? The lead. If you have a hard metal round or a full metal jacket on the round, you're going to have one hard metal scraping against the metal of your barrel. This causes the barrel to wear out very quickly, especially when dealing with steel-jacketed rounds.

That's where teflon comes in. Contrary to popular belief, the teflon coating of a bullet does not make it armor-piercing. It does not help (significantly) with increasing the velocity of the round by reducing barrel friction, partly because you want the round to expand in order to fit into the rifling grooves and give you accuracy. However, if you coat a steel-jacketed round with teflon, you no longer have a hardened steel scraping the inside of your barrel every time you fire. You have a nice, slick, soft teflon coat gently caressing the inside of your barrel every time you fire. In this way, you can use your barrel for more than a week. ;)

Just figured I'd clear up a couple misconceptions while we were at it.

[ichi]

Nice links guys, and . . .

katanas rule!!

ichi :bow:

[DemonArchangel]

Nice... still, i prefer european or chinese swords because they can be bent side to side more easily and not snap.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Actually the info I had on teflon said that it would penetrate armor due to the teflon being slippery non-stick or what not. I believe I heard this from my forensics teacher. That is why they are illegal... (in US)
I could be wrong, seeing as I have not seen a study or a copy of any laws but this is what I have heard from someone I trust.

[Irinami]

You are misinformed about the way they work. I understand the train of thought, but if it pierced armor due to not "sticking" to it, then it wouldn't stick enough to bite into the armor in the first place--it would slide off (ricochet), defeating the purpose. ~;) My sources are military, law-enforcement, and paralegal friends. Some of the military and L.E. ones have been involved in the testing of munitions including teflon-coated armor-piercing rounds, others in the procurement of supplies in general, including armor-piercing rounds. In some jurisdictions they are illegal, in some they are perfectly legal.

So what about armor-piercing in Sengoku-Jidai? It's kind of irrelevant really. You can fire a standard ball (lead) .22LR at 100 yards against authentic heavy-gauge steel armor and it will penetrate within 3 rounds. This is not a particularly powerful round, and neither is it heavy nor fast. The muskets of the day tended to be around .60 to .80 calibre. At the speeds and ranges encountered in the era, all but a direct hit would penetrate. Even without penetration you have the possibility of injury from shearing or blunt force trauma. And even failing that, the energy is still transferred. Any of you gents been thrown violently from a horse before? I haven't, but if I remember right there's this guy we all know who was: Christopher Reeve. We all know how that turned out.

[Togakure]

"... a much-decorated former police lieutenant from the New York Police Department, Representative Mario Biaggi (who was to wind up in prison as a result of the Wedtech scandal and thereby probably to confirm the suspicions of the NRA about its opponents), introduced what was generally regarded as creampuff legislation to ban Teflon-coated bullets, whose only real purpose seemed to be to penetrate the sort of body armor normally worn by cops. (How clearly I remember the gratitude I felt on learning, on October 4, 1986, that Minneapolis police officer Thomas Sawina was wearing a bullet-proof vest when he was shot in the chest with his own gun; it was the finest birthday present I ever got. A "copkiller bullet" would have penetrated his armor and probably would have killed him.) ..."

Link: http://www.pnews.org/PhpWiki/index.php/ArmedAndDangerous?PHPSESSID=da38e211f2d9ce9be92487fa567f637c

Comments? I'm not trying to start a controversy here, just asking. I'd like to know more about this side topic (and I'm in the process of finding out, as you can see).

[Shambles]

its not that the teflon makes the bullet any harder or sharper,
it just allows you to use a harder bullet and still get the projectile to spin,

its either hard bulet no spin from barrel rifeling so less acuracy and velocity.
or soft bullet exelent spin and velocity but poor penitration,

with a teflon coating on a hard bullet the bullet can now utilize the rifeling on the barrel to better effect which in turn increase stabilaty and velocity.

so teflon dosent make it armour piercing, it just makes armour piercing bullets better

[Togakure]

That very clear and concise explanation makes sense to me, Shambles. Thanks. If I find anything interesting in my virtual-digging I'll start a thread on the subject in the Tavern.

[Irinami]

Thanks Shambles. That's what I try to say, but I just don't STFU. As you can tell. ~D

[CBR]

The momentum from a bullet hitting you is the same as the recoil the shooter experiences so you would never actually be blown back from being hit.

The danger of the blunt trauma is that the area around where the bullet hits the armour gets depressed several centimeters and breaks ribs. If the depression is too deep it can damage organs and be lethal.

Modern day body armour is designed so the depression will be around 2-4 centimeters max so that the blunt trauma will be a bruising only (although some thinks 4 centimeters is still too much AFAIK)


CBR

[Irinami]

The momentum from a bullet hitting you is the same as the recoil the shooter experiences so you would never actually be blown back from being hit.

Yes and no. Yes the force is the same. The shooter has the distinct advantage of being properly braced and prepared for it. If you're properly braced and prepared to be shot, you're either sitting in a seat or you're not in combat. You would also most likely lose your bracing and preparation upon the round initially striking. It tends to hurt. ;)




The danger of the blunt trauma is that the area around where the bullet hits the armour gets depressed several centimeters and breaks ribs. If the depression is too deep it can damage organs and be lethal.

Modern day body armour is designed so the depression will be around 2-4 centimeters max so that the blunt trauma will be a bruising only (although some thinks 4 centimeters is still too much AFAIK)

CBR

The blunt trauma on modern vests depends on the power behind the round. This means it depends on the round fired and the distance. Many a police officer have broken ribs from being shot, since they tend to work at "point-blank" range. Many a police officer also is dead because they tend to work at "point-blank" range, and vests are often unable to stop a round with so much of its initial power. Depends on the round and the range again.

As I've been schooled, you shouldn't count someone out if they've been shot, whether or not they've got a vest on; and you shouldn't consider them mission-capable after being shot even if they do have a vest on.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Thanks for clearing that up for me, very interesting. (insert bow here, smilie glitch...)


BTW I think reasonable gun restrictions are a great idea, but we need to be careful to not take it too far so that we end up making it impossible for anyone, even those with good reason, to own a gun.

[gatoshin]

The bullet isn't being cut by the katana. It is breaking apart.

Out on the farm one summer, I was doing some shooting with my uncle at a rusted-out steel drum filled with yard waste. The 9mm rounds would often enter the drum, hit a twig, break apart and exit the drum in 2-3 pieces.

In contrast, the .50-cal ball from the muzzle loader wouldn't even change shape, just go right through both sides of the drum, sail downrange (you could see it in the air) and bury itself in the ground with a big puff of dirt. ~D

[Irinami]

Good point, Gatoshin. One of the reasons forthe shape and composition of the modern bullet (among many, many other reasons!) is to aid in the fragmentation of the round on impact.

[CBR]

Yes and no. Yes the force is the same. The shooter has the distinct advantage of being properly braced and prepared for it. If you're properly braced and prepared to be shot, you're either sitting in a seat or you're not in combat.

As one can shoot while moving or from the hip and as the main recoil is stopped by the arm/shoulder I dont see an impact in say the chest region to be more difficult to handle for someone getting hit.


You would also most likely lose your bracing and preparation upon the round initially striking. It tends to hurt.

And that is because of pain which comes from how deep/concentrated the blunt trauma is. There is a big difference between someone using a light concealed vest of say protection level II-A and then a military body armor of level IV. They can both be hit by a 9 mm bullet but bruising/blunt trauma will be very different. As the level IV is designed to stop armor piercing 7.62 mm rifle bullets and also deal with the blunt trauma, a 9 mm wont do much bruising.

IIRC some policemen have been killed although the vest stopped the bullet the blunt trauma was still so deep that they died from that instead.


As I've been schooled, you shouldn't count someone out if they've been shot, whether or not they've got a vest on; and you shouldn't consider them mission-capable after being shot even if they do have a vest on

I have read about one policemen who in a shootout got hit in the stomach and fell down only to discover that he hadnt been hit at all! He just thought he got hit and that was enough, so psychology means a lot for how one feels pain as well as where a bullet hits of course. So yes a vest doesnt make it certain that someone will be capable of continuing a fight.


CBR

[Irinami]

As one can shoot while moving or from the hip and as the main recoil is stopped by the arm/shoulder I dont see an impact in say the chest region to be more difficult to handle for someone getting hit.

That's what I thought too. Essentially what I was told was, "You haven't been around many people who've been shot before, have you?" Take it or leave it, it won't hurt my feelings--after all, it's second-hand knowledge from friends I trust to me, but to you it's third-hand knowledge from someone you don't know. ~;)

Hmmm, Gun vs. Katana...

Can I vote for both? ~;)

[CBR]

Heh no worries m8 ~:)

As I dont have experiences with shooting nor getting hit I just have to rely on what info I can get from books, websites etc.

But ask your friends what the specific situation was: protection level and type of bullet. I have seen pictures of the nasty bruises one can get so I have no doubt that the lower protection levels (and that would be most normal for police officers I guess) means it will hurt like hell and feel like a horse just kicked you.

http://www.bulletproofme.com/How_to_Select_Body_Armor.shtml


Tactically, one factor does strongly recommend a thicker Level II or III-A, over II-A – being able to return fire more quickly and/or effectively. The extra thickness means more blunt trauma protection and less felt impact or injury from bullets striking you. Thus you may be able to react faster and more effectively after being hit – critical if you need to prevail in the confrontation, as well as just survive the hit.

Here its stated very precisely actually. Blunt Trauma is the problem and if that is minimised by a thicker vest the impact/pain from being hit is less.


Im not sure about how well medieval or japanese armor would to help reduce blunt trauma but IIRC knights had some pretty thick padding under their torso plate armor.

A steel plate could get a dent but its not that elastic so it wouldnt be pushed that far back without the bullet penetrating so its more likely the whole piece of plate would be pushed back and the force spread out over a large area.


CBR

[Shambles]

PSI (lbds per square inch)

Gun butt is Large so PSI is less,
Bullet is small So PSI is More,

More psi is more force essentialy,

6inch butt of gun on sholder recoils you a bit,

9mm of bullets is expenentialy more PSI
so u do the math :bow:

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Psychology is a big part of how someone deals with a gunshot wound. I just read "Stiff" By something Roach and in it she describes tests that some people conducted to find out what makes people drop before they are dead or mortally wounded from a bullet. Some animals would drop when hit and some would not, I cannot remember which animalks dropped, I will bring the book to the computer and look it up tomorrow, I am a bit rushed right now. I think it has to do with the thought of "My god I have just been shot!" For the animals it may be the sound frightening them and some may be a bit too thick to get it, I believe they tested it on cows and if I remember correctly they stayed up.