View Full Version : Investigation of the Phalanx formation
therother
10-13-2004, 16:40
Placeholder.
(This thread is a pruned merging of two threads transferred into the Ludus Magna from the Colosseum. The threads were frogbeastegg's Step two three, shuffle two three, dance two three : the big phalanx question (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=38342), and Doug-Thompson's A thin line of spears (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=39916). Click the appropriate links to see the originals.)
frogbeastegg
10-19-2004, 11:05
EDIT: This was originally started and investigated under 1.1. 1.2 made significant changes to phalanx units, so it may not be 100% accurate now.
The subject of today's froggy question to gather information for the guide is the phalanx. Yes, them yet again. This time it is a very simple, deceptively so, topic with no rank bonuses, stats, coding or anything to examine, nor any begging for a CA demigod to descend from on high and help.
Today's question: How do you get your phalanx to attack?
This might sound dumb, but it really is not. You see I find it impossible to get a phalanx to reliably engage in combat. At this point I should note in big, bold letters please do not reply with something entirely useless like "just right click on the enemy", if that worked I would not be posting this!. Also please do not tell me that the right shuffle is historical - I know, and it is irrelevant to this discussion.
There are several ways to try and get a phalanx to attack:
1. Leave the unit in guard mode and phalanx formation and right click the enemy once. This leads to, more often than not, the phalanx standing just out of range and shuffling to the right. They say they are fighting but they definitely are not; there is a definite gap between the spear/pike points and the enemy, no fighting animations are playing, and no one is dying. Alternatively the phalanx will sometimes lose its cohesion without doing much and will stand around as it is slaughtered, until suddenly remembering that death is an undesirable thing and fighting back in a piecemeal, disordered fashion using both swords and spears/pikes.
Occasionally this works, usually against units armed with swords who obligingly walk onto the spear/pike points. I can get it to produce a decent attack maybe one in every four attempts, and one disordered mess one in every four attempts. By attempts I mean clean, fresh situations, not wheeling about and moving in a combat situation after fighting for a while already. If you are already vaguely close to the enemy then they tend to lose cohesion and go into the piecemeal state described above. Fair enough; the phalanx is not famous for being manoeuvrable.
2. Have the phalanx in guard/phalanx mode and order them to move behind the enemy unit in a straight line so their path rams right into the enemy. This is recommended by CA on the Res Romanae.
This either works or kills your unit outright. Imagine a unit of 240 silver shield pikemen drawn up into 6 ranks. Imagine how deep that formation is. Now multiply that depth by 6 to get a distance. That is roughly the amount of empty space you need between your unit and the enemy for this to have a chance of working. If the gap is smaller then your phalanx tend to shoulder their weapons and walk right into the enemy and are cut down without even trying to fight back. If that gap is there then you have a roughly even chance of getting the pike push effect CA talk about, course if you don't your men just walk blindly ahead and die.
3. Let the enemy come to you; set up in guard/phalanx and never move.
Yes, this works each and every time unless your enemy has phalanx units too. Problem: This is useless in MP as no one is stupid enough to walk into the front of a phalanx. The AI is helpful like that; people aren't.
I spent about an hour testing this last night with [FF]Louis-St-Simurgh and [FF]Darkhalf and it was a farce, a real farce. We had units shuffling so far they ended up behind the enemy's lines and they still refused to hurt anyone. We had units walking right into forests of weapons and dying without even trying to fight back. We had units who stood there for minute after minute and never did anything more than shuffle to the right. Once Louis and Darkhalf managed to get in a position where a phalanx shuffled right into the spear points of another, mincing itself. Needless to say the minced phalanx wasn't doing anything much with the phalanx in front of it, the one it was supposed to be fighting. For that matter the phalanx it was supposed to be fighting was doing nothing much either.
We used the flat map, 'grassy flatlands', so there were no terrain/height issues. We took about 20 units each, including a couple of cavalry to see how they fared against a phalanx when charging into the flanks and rear, and we got maybe two satisfactory battles out of the whole thing. One of those was caused by Darkhalf leaving his phalanx units stationary while I ordered mine to move behind his from a very long (think the width of one full screen when zoomed out as far as it will go) distance. The other I am not sure; it didn't involve my units and it was getting very late.
I have also tested it in SP custom mode with the same sorts of results.
I've finished two Roman short campaigns now; I was thinking of playing the Greeks or Macedonians next but that idea has lost its appeal after these tests.
So, that's your task - find me a reliable way to make phalanx units fight, against both phalanx and non-phalanx units. In the current version of the guide the phalanx tactics are no more than "stand still, don't ever move and hope the AI is dumb enough to walk into your front." This is obviously no good at all.
SwordsMaster
10-19-2004, 11:18
Its not exactly a scientific proof, but.... if its of any use....
Yesterday, in my Roman campaign, I was assaulting Carthage. Among others I had a couple of merc phalanx units. And they DID attack.
Phalanx formation, defense mode OFF. double r-click on the enemy, the phalanx gets into formation and charges in perfect ranks. (At least it worked for me....)
What worried me is that they didnt even make an attempt to pursue, despite having the def-mode turned OFF..... might be a "phalanx formation" thing.
Hope this helps....
I've had succes with the following:
- Take unit out of phalanx formation
- walk/run up to within striking range of the enemy unit
- resume phalanx formation
This has the effect of instantly engaging the unit in battle, usually with quite good results.
It is most effective when used against a unit that is already engaged and thus cant really move out of the way/countercharge, but it can also work in a 'straight' engagement though the timing has to be spot-on.
Alternatively, I use several phalanxes to create a broad mobile 'no-go' area; they get very few kills, but take few as well. In effect they are used to get the enemy out of formation and enable other units to be more effective.
Soulflame
10-19-2004, 11:28
I've had succes with the following:
- Take unit out of phalanx formation
- walk/run up to within striking range of the enemy unit
- resume phalanx formation
This has the effect of instantly engaging the unit in battle, usually with quite good results.
It is most effective when used against a unit that is already engaged and thus cant really move out of the way/countercharge, but it can also work in a 'straight' engagement though the timing has to be spot-on.
This is the same tactic the AI seems to use when I fight him and he has phalanx units. So I guess there is certainly some merit for it. I haven't checked it myself, but this may yet be the best way I reckon.
I absolutely LOVE the phalanx ^^
I'm playing Romans again, and I really miss them. They are insanely powerful from the front, and if you ever catch an enemy in sandwitch between two of them, it's a real meatgrinder. I'm quite fond of the Greek factions, personnally.
So, how to make them fight ? Very easy.
Don't walk past the enemy. Sometimes they will push him back at spearpoint and slaughter him, but more often than not, he will hold on enough time for the hoplites to close in, lose the phalanx formation, and start hand-to-hand mêlée combat with sword, where they aren't really effective.
Don't simply right-click. It works about half the time, but as you said, the other half, they simply stay slightly out-of-rang of the enemy, and don't fight. Even if they go close enough to fight, anyway, they just scratch the opponent's frontline, without the meatgrinder power of the phalanx.
The solution is simple : make it walk JUST RIGHT IN FRONT of the enemy. That is, order them to walk so they will be about one meter from the front line. They will go, and then they will be in a "push position", where the enemy is in the reach of the spears.
And let the slaughter begins ^^
Edit : the Daevyll's method works often, too. Resuming phalanx formatin in the middle of a mêlée, often have incredibly good result.
Excalibur Bane
10-19-2004, 14:01
I've encountered this myself. I find any engagements involving phalanx or pikemen to be absolutely tedious at best, infuriating at worst. Forming a phalanx shouldn't even be a special function, they should by themselves to form it.
Let's take a typical example of phalanx vs. whatever. Battle starts, phalanx are in phalanx mode, guard mode on. This immediately disables running or any kind of charge. So I turn off both functions, run the unit into position, hopefully without having anyone intercept them while they move in position and engage them in standard mode. I then reform the phalanx, and click attack. The unit moves at a snails pace to poke the enemy with it's sticks. By this time the enemy has usually moved out of position. Trying to actually turn the unit, does nothing but cause chaos.
The units should not need this level of micromanagement. It should keep in formation, but keep it's spears up and be able to run until you double click an attack order, then they should charge the enemy, bring the spears down mid formation and smack into them. That's the way it should work, but it doesn't. God knows why.
I was really looking forward to playing as the Selucids or Greek but I'm avoiding them until they do something to fix this. I can't stand the tedium involved with these units. :furious3:
I actually have some good success with my Phalanx Units,
Always turn OFF Guard Mode
LEAVE them in Phalanx Mode unless you need to cover ground quickly and always change back to Phalanx with PLENTY of time to spare, takes a little time to "form" the Phalanx.
Always DOUBLE CLICK an attack
even though the unit does not "run" it HAS been ordered to Charge and thus you will get any applicable Charge Bonus
Tested
Macedon vs Selucid, 10 Phalanx Pikemen units Each - (580 Denarii each),
no upgrades, Greek Shore Map,
no Flanking in initial attack,
leave general just behind front line until required,
Usual Casualties, 5 to 1 in my favour.
Macedon vs Selucid, 10 Phalanx Pikemen units vs 10 Silver Legion,
no upgrades, Greek Shore Map,
no Flanking in initial attack,
leave general just behind front line until required,
Usual Casualties, 3 to 2 in my favour.
(THIS is a little harder, given AI controlled Silver Legion's ability to fight 2 units at once,
meaning they can throw javelins and charge at one unit, while already fighting h2h with another at the SAME time)
Good Luck
Cheers,
B.
frogbeastegg
10-19-2004, 15:26
Ok, thanks some good ideas here. Not sure when I'll be able to try them though. I do hope it isn't as fiddly as it sounds to use a phalanx successfully; I can see myself avoiding them if they are that awkward.
Barocca, the same old thing I've been complaining about ever since I got here. :takes deep breath, wait for it....here it comes: Double click is run, not charge!! Yes, I know it says so in the tutorial but even back in STW units began to charge on their own based on distance to the enemy. Just click once and leave them alone, they will charge. If you make them run to the enemy the change over to charging speed is less noticeable. We had a very long discussion on this in the MTW unit guide thread, and in the beginner's guide thread, and in a few other threads. Suffice it to say the quick summery is thus: double click=run, but sometimes running is good, especially when using cavalry, because it gives them more time to get up to full speed and therefore full bonus. Double click is not charge.
This reminds me I need to add a section about run/charging to the RTW guide...
Red Harvest
10-19-2004, 17:24
I've been using them as Germania on VH/VH. What I have been doing is:
1. Arranging my line and marching close to the enemy line (but out of charge range). All in standard formation.
2. Switch to phalanx. (Leave in guard mode.)
3. Select my phalanx line and order it to march as a wall to a point beyond the enemy line (I drag out the line, rather than just clicking.)
Either the enemy charges, or we engage as I march into them. I issue new orders or halt units as needed. I use cav or light units to plug any holes that form as the engagement happens or the phalanx units rotate. The lines stay fairly contiguous like this and do a good job of chewing up the enemy.
I try not to order individual unit attack orders until the lines have engaged, because often times the lines will turn about 45 degrees to plot "intercept" courses as the AI shifts its infantry. The lead correction/intercept course movement is undesirable with a phalanx. I will order one on one attacks do some if I have a lot wider front and can micromanage the engagement, but if the AI starts crossing units (as it likes to do) I have to halt the phalanx and change orders.
Phalanx units require too much micromanagement in RTW. Of course, the same could be said for many other units...
Spartiate
10-19-2004, 18:07
I have had similar experiences to those expressed by both DAEVYLL and SOULFLAME with one exception.Just after engaging if there is still a noticeable gap with not much going on i quickly disable the phalanx,right click on the enemy again and then re-enable the phalanx mode.I noticed that this worked for the first time while testing units in custom battle.I was using Spartan Hoplites against full upgrade Sacred Band Infantry.This seemed to deal with the problem at least for me.
frogbeastegg
10-19-2004, 18:21
Actually when I doubleclick on an enemy they shout "Charge", and when I just r-click they shout "Attack".
Hehe, that's funny - when I do that with Seleucid silver shield pikemen they yell, "attack quickly" and "unleash hell". I also remember units yelling, "charge!" on a single click attack order, though which units escapes me right now. I think the sound bites are just there for general effect, a loose description of what is happening. Well, unless "unleash hell" is intended to describe the phalanx losing cohesion and shuffling to its doom. :rolleyes:
I haven't noticed any real difference between single clicking and double clicking with phalanx units in my limited test in a custom battle just now; I want to get them working properly before I do any extensive testing. I do know that for all the other units things work as per MTW. Phalanx could be different, but when most orders result in them committing suicide it is hard to tell if any charging takes place or not.
Hopefully I should have time to test the phalanx attack orders tomorrow; I shall report back when I do.
Well, but thats how phalanx works.... And anyway, it might have been changed in RTW.
Actually when I doubleclick on an enemy they shout "Charge", and when I just r-click they shout "Attack".
:-) my point exaclty.
If you leave them to simply march in (single click) they do the Famous Phalanx Shuffle, and not much else...
if you double click they dont do the Shuffle
- well they shuffle a LITTLE bit, but not much AND they are killing merrily away while they do so.
(can't recall if phalanx units yell charge or not - but other units certainly do)
So I too think double click for charge has been changed/fixed for Rome.
ALSO the "drift" has less "impact" if you spread the formation wider than standard, i find 4 ranks works well. (others may have different suggestions)
As for enemy units changing trajectories and breaking your line you want to issue individual orders as close to the enemy as possible, so that enemy units sidestepping does not expose so much of the flanks.
As for being flanked, they are going to be overlapped/wrapped-around by most infantry they encounter (other than phalanx units) so having some light troops to cover the gaps as they appear works wonders for me.
Phalanx units need support, they need decent cavalry or heavy infantry to protect the outer flanks of the line, and they need light fast troops to cover "interior" flanks (the gaps that open up between adjacent phalanx's) as they are exposed.
cheers,
B.
In my experience, you do not have to do all these clicky manuevers ;p You can of course if you want to, but, if you're lazy you can simply remove the guard option and they will begin to actually attack. What these other guys are doing, is what you almost would call exploitative game mechanics. Essentially they are maximizing their initial attack by getting as many spears into the enemy formation as possible. I wouldnt call it an exploit, rather imaginative use of the formation ;p
Guard Option for the Phalanx works unlike any other unit. They will not actively engage, they will simply hold their formation and engage anything that comes into their killing zone. About the only time I want them to use this, is when im massively outnumbered in a defensive action, or in siege defence. All other instances, make sure you turn guard off, or your phalanxes will march up and stop just short. Many of the previous posters have mentioned ways that you can force a phalanx in guard mode into attacking, but in my opinion its more trouble than its worth, and in my experience they contort all the faster as they try to regain a defensive position rather than an offensive one.
...I also remember units yelling, "charge!" on a single click attack order...
...but when most orders result in them committing suicide it is hard to tell if any charging takes place or not...
for the single click order resulting in a charge, cavalry tend to do that but infantry will also do that if the enemy unit is within the "charge range"
I am really having some difficulty understanding what is happening to you,
as Jullii i rely heavily on merc hoplites for destroying heavy cavalry, elite infantry and holding wall breaches.
If I want an enemy line held in place (pinned) Phalanx is IDEAL while my light cav run round the back.
My merc hoplites rapidly get to silver experience...
They dont actually "charge", they cannot run while in Phalanx,
but I have found a double click makes them kill things quicker...
Spino, we may have better luck having someone give us new animations for the Phalanx than having CA patch out the shuffle. I've got no clue but I've heard on the TWcenter you can alter/create new animations. So it wouldnt shock me if someone could edit/alter the current animation so the shuffle was gone.
Guard Option for the Phalanx works unlike any other unit. They will not actively engage, they will simply hold their formation and engage anything that comes into their killing zone.
Osbot and I are of the same mind on this one,
turn Guard OFF
So it wouldnt shock me if someone could edit/alter the current animation so the shuffle was gone.
i think the shuffle is game mechanics, not graphic animation,
the units are programmed to shuffle seeing that is what historically happened,
the trick is to minimise the shuffle in the first place and understand how to cover their flanks if an engagement continues for an extended period of time.
This means "designing" your army around the Phalanx units.
Heavy infantry/Cav for the outer edges and nimble troops to cover gaps in the line as they are exposed.
Accounting Troll
10-19-2004, 20:28
When I am using phalanxes, I order each individual phalanx to attack a particular enemy unit rather than grouping them and giving orders to the group as a whole. They only break formation and engage with swords if they get flanked, so I usually have some cavalry on standby to prevent my phalanxes from being flanked.
I have only noticed the shuffle when I have about half a dozen phalanxes attacking a lone enemy unit, so some of my men have to budge up to make room for their comrades.
City streets often don't have enough room for attackers to stay in formation, so I disable phalanx mode when my pikemen are storming a city.
Phalanxes are supposed to engage the entire enemy infantry line simultaneously, but if you group your units and give them orders to attack as a group, the game thinks you want all your units to attack a particular enemy unit, so your men end up breaking formation. You definatly need to be a fan of micromanaging your battles to get the best out of phalanxes.
Doug-Thompson
10-19-2004, 20:46
This is too bizarre.
Attacking something should not be this difficult.
I guess it's too early to ask if there's anything similar to a rank bonus as there is in M:TW, etc.
Also, maybe RTW just isn't like MTW. Maybe guard mode should be left off, period.
My experience with RTW spear units is extremely limited, but trying MTW-type tactics of staying together in four ranks didn't work at all for me. Eastern Infantry may be the worst spear unit in the game, but getting beat by an equal number of peasants was embarrassing.
Phalanxes are implemented amazingly poorly in RTW.
As frog and many of the rest of you discovered, simply clicking (or double clicking) on the target involves the phalanx marching up, lowering their spears well short of the enemy, and then simply refusing to advance for the longest time while they blindly all shuffle off to buffalo in happy oblivion. The only way you get any action is if the enemy is foolish enough to throw themselves on your spears.
To get my phalanxes to attack, I have to click beyond the enemy (and from enough distance away from the enemy). Naturally, this is very micromanagemnt intensive if the enemy rearranges his battlelines.
And the phalanx sidestep is NOT historical and moreover, is NOT good gameplay. It's beyond foolish. The 'phalanx drift' occured predominantly as the men were marching or charging towards the enemy under a hail of arrows. It occured much less frequently once the phalanx was locked in combat, for the simple reason you didn't *have* freedom of lateral movement without corresponding forward movement, because of the mass of men pushing in from behind. The way it's depicted in game, with the entire phalanx taking a step to the side every, second, is ridiculous.
This also illustrates how absolutely silly a phalanx looks attacking when they creep up. Stop, then all lower their sticks and gingerly poke away while shuffling away from the fight as if they wish they were elswhere.. No, no, NO. Phalanxes smashed their enemies using their weight and momentum. Stopping just before the final collision would be unheard of. They should charge into the enemy headfirst.
The lateral drift also wreaks absolute havoc with gameplay. I had a unit of spartan hoplites attacking a unit of my archers. The hoplites came up, attacked the archers in the center, and then slowly driftted off to the side. The unengaged archers of course, are shooting them the entire time. They eventually kill off the 1/2 of the archers on their side, drift faaaaaar away, and finally go through all kinds of contortions to turn around and get back into action - getting shot in back by the archers the whole time. It completely destroys any belief you are watching a real battle.
An additional match up was sacred band vs early legion or something. The sacred band drifted and drifted and drifted and drifted until - the entire phalanx was facing *nothing* but thin air, and the only man in the unit fighting was the man on the extreme right who had his sword out and was fighting a swarm of very bemused legionares watching the phalanx slowly sidestap away perpendicularly to their own line. Naturally this poor right flank sacred band fellow was quickly cut down and replaced by the man behind him, as the sacred band continued their mad shuffle leftwards.
To sum up : the lateral drift is far too pronounced to be even remotely historical, and is far to disruptive to good gameplay to leave in.
Red Harvest
10-20-2004, 01:13
I still think the key is to move your phalanx arm as a continuous line past the enemy line as Ulstan suggests This is the only way I've found to get them to behave as a unit/line. I am leaving them in the default guard mode that the German Spear Warband comes in. This keeps them from fracturing as soon as enemy units rout. I do change orders when they actually engage to get them to match up better and I'll pull them out of phalanx sometimes to reface once they rout the guy in front of them.
As barocca mentioned, I use 4 rank depth to give width to the 121 man German phalanx. The 80 man phalanx units are too small. I don't know what CA was thinking, but they don't work well at that unit size. If you could "weld" the phalanx units it would be different although they would still suffer inordinately from the loss of individual soldiers.
Kraxis doubts the historical shuffle to the right when engaged. I'm sitting on the fence, since I liked his arguments, but I've seen a lot that says otherwise. (Plus I think the position of the spear and placement of the feet would tend to produce some "pull" in combat.) I will say this regardless of the historical accuracy, with the multitude of problems phalanx units face in RTW, the shuffle is a "bridge too far" and should be removed.
I'm going to have to watch more to see what I'm doing...I'm having very good luck with them vs. the Gauls, Dacians, and Britons...but I'm allied with Rome so I'm not facing heavyweights. I swore off infantry as Carthage after finding the phalanx units unusable on vh/vh, but I lacked the availability of cav as Germania early on...and large phalanx units readily available as Germania.
One thing is certain. Phalanx armies need cav, else the army you just whipped will escape off the map to fight you again next turn. When I'm down to scraps of two cav units in each army as Germania, I feel this deficiency in the worst possible way. I'm about three turns from Gaul, Briton, and Dacia running out of money to pump out full stacks every turn (been watching their finances as they gang up on me...oh, there will be a RECKONING!)
Here are my recommendations for using the phalanx capable units for greece, macedon and selucid as they appear in the game,
Phalanx units are not fast moving, they wont blitz through the enemy line in a heart beat (they are heavy troops, not shock cavalry),
But they will decimate most anything that gets in their way.
Phalanx Troops were a Steam Roller, they did punch through enemy lines, but they did not do it quickly.
To Get the Most out of Phalanx Units
------------------------------------
Turn Guard Mode off,
Phalanx units will never persue routing troops very far at all anyway, even in aggressive mode. IF you want them to persue a routing unit take them out of phalanx and order them to chase.
Keep your phalanx units in a cohesive line (open field battles)
If you take a unit out of phalanx to move/redeploy quickly, Then give them a few seconds to reform before attacking
Pick your targets and double-click
Protect the flanks
Protect the End of the line with cavalry and heavy infantry
Protect any Gaps that may appear between Phalanx units with nimble troops, they need to be able to move quickly to guard the flanks of your Phalanx,
You dont need to try to engage anything, just stand in the gap so nothing can get at the flanks.
IF Your army leader is in a Phalanx unit be very carefull, watch where The Actual Leader Figure is standing and try to keep him out of a Phalanx/Phalanx confrontation
- he only has a sword,
- he will try to charge the wall of spears,
- he will wind up poisoning the carrion birds...
Avoid Terrain Obstacles where possible, they will disrupt formation and disrupt cohesion of a line of phalanx units.
IF you must pass through a terrain obstacle pre-order your line to stop immediately after the obstacle to allow your line to remain "solid".
I pin the enemy main line with my Phalanx units, knowing they will hold long enough for me to go round the flanks and deal with skirmishers and missile troops, then to fall uon the rear of the units the phalanx troops have pinned.
I also use Phalanx units in City Assaults,
I make 3 breaches in the wall, I time them so the first breach is the gate and make one additional breach EACH side of the gate some 15 to 30 seconds later.
I push a Phalanx into the Gate to attract and pin enemy troops, then push something else through the breaches to either side and sandwich the units pinned by my Phalanx.
Then I use my Phalanx units to guard the gate area, and everything else moves into the city.
How to deal with an enemy Phalanx.
Simple, use a reasonable defensive unit as a "pin" on guard mode to engage the Phalanx, and hit the Phalanx from the sides and rear with cavalry.
_________________________________________________________________
What can go wrong
If you leave Guard Mode On for Greece, Macedon and Selucids the Phalanx units become dancing fools.
You can enhance and prolong dancing fool mode by clicking behind the enemy line rather than a direct attack on a unit.
PLEASE NOTE results Cannot be guaranteed if you have installed ANY mods that you yourself did not make, You have NO guarantee what the mod-maker may have tweaked and forgotten to mention.
and if YOU made a mod make sure you did not tweak or alter ANY units.
Doug-Thompson
10-20-2004, 03:42
[Edited note: barocca's post and mine "passed in the ether." This reply is not a reply to barocca's.]
As barocca mentioned, I use 4 rank depth to give width to the 121 man German phalanx.
... The 80 man phalanx units are too small. I don't know what CA was thinking, but they don't work well at that unit size. If you could "weld" the phalanx units it would be different although they would still suffer inordinately from the loss of individual soldiers.
Well, if you infantry pros would tolerate some guesses from an enemy (cavalry) player ...
Having a formation only two ranks deep seems to relieve the deadly "friendly fire" problem quite a bit when a friendly missile unit is behind you. I think (guess?) that the 80-man phalanx units are meant to work in very close conjunction with missile units.
Although a triarii is not a phalanx unit, I tried some experiments tonight with the triarii and hastati (sp?). There is no triarii rank bonus. However, there is quite a charge bonus. Stretching the triarii into a thin, 2-rank line put the maximum number of spear points on the front line, maximizing that charge bonus. The hastati were behind the spears and threw their javelins over the heads of the triarii without killing their friends in front. After a couple of throws, the hastati charged and finished off the Carthaginian Long-Shields unit.
The cavalry fought to the end, losing their general just before the whole unit was destroyed, leaving two routing survivors. The infantry had no height advantage. The test was run a couple of times on grassy flatlands, with the AI obligingly charging right in. I still had only 20 triarii and 55 hastati left, but destroyed a very good cavalry unit.
I suspect that a long, thin phalanx (which I admit is an oxymoron) backed by slingers or archers would be very deadly.
=============
As for big phalanx units, it seems that phalanx combat is not very satisfying but it is effective. A phalanx unit four ranks deep cuts down hastati, leaving three survivors and losing only eight men. It took time, however -- which was interesting, considering all the complaints the forum has had about kill rates.
============
I never thought a spear unit would need more micro than horse archers, but it does appear that big phalanx units can be manuevered effectively by keeping one finger between the phalanx and "run" buttons, and switching between the two a lot. The facing buttons help a lot, too.
===========
As for the crushing advance of a charging phalanx and historical accuracy, I'm -- just going to stop now.
i give the phalanxes somewhere to walk to that is behind the enemy, and hope they dont wheel uncharaisterically. i get good odds on doing it right as long as i do it one at a time and nobody ios in a group.
The problem is not the rightward drift. The problem is them not engaging the enemy properly. They don't drift right when they manage to lock spears with the enemy, or if they do its not by much. I've had phalanx on phalanx combat before and if they get their spears engaged they basically don't drift. What I find to be the problem is like what many said here. They attack the enemy but really don't attack. Their spears are not touching the enemy and they're not doing any damage. Why this is I don't know. This needs to be looked at by CA.
I havent really worked out how to use the phalanx properly but i have worked out what NOT to do if it is any help..
was playing one of the historical battles where you get 'phants and pha'nxs and i had the brilliant(?) idea of sending my elephants charging lengthwise down the line of enemy phalanxes closely followed by my phalanxes (i have no heavy sword infantry) marching forward into their completely disrupted formations...
Elephant manouver worked perfectly, charged straight down their line sidewise disurpting all their nice neat formations with them all scattered around on the ground, my phalanxes move in to what i hope is a massacre as they kill all the enemy soldiers lying on the ground...
well it was a massacre all right, their disrupted troops all promply get up and are now surrounding my nice neat formation of phalanxes on all sides, my phalanxes promptly shuffled about not knowing where to put its spears (ooh matron!) while all the enemy just stood around them in a nice big mulberry bush circle stabbing inwards.
lets just say its not a tactic i would reccomend... :charge:
The problem is not the rightward drift. The problem is them not engaging the enemy properly.
They don't drift right when they manage to lock spears with the enemy, or if they do its not by much. I've had phalanx on phalanx combat before and if they get their spears engaged they basically don't drift.
What I find to be the problem is like what many said here. They attack the enemy but really don't attack. Their spears are not touching the enemy and they're not doing any damage. Why this is I don't know. This needs to be looked at by CA.
this is what i cannot understand,
it does not happen to me at all,
when i tell phlalanx "go kill" it does exactly that,
it goes and it kills.
Mostly it kills quickly, sometimes it kills a little slower, sometimes it shuffles WHILE it kills, but it always kills.
Have you tried following my advice exactly?
Guard Mode OFF, Phalanx Mode ON and Double click the target unit?
MAYBE it is something i am doing instinctively/automatically and have not realised that i need to explain it,
TRY double clicking the target unit when it is about the same distance from your Phalanx THAT, you would order a charge if you were using a Hastati Unit.
and i will try and analyse exactly what i am doing with my Phalanx units...
When I double click, my units say unleash hell and attack quickly but they just stand there doing nothing. They eventually attack but absolutely not quickly.
I've only used militia hoplites but they seem to switch to their swords too quickly. They get slaughtered after that.
Colovion
10-21-2004, 06:40
Phalanx units start with Gaurd Mode on, yes.
I've done some tests and it seems that the phalanx units attack much better with the Gaurd mode off (as many here have attested to). This is both an annoyance to me as well as something that makes sense. It's annoyin because phalanx soldiers are supposed to be a tight knit group that tries as hard as they can to stay together. Gaurd does this with all units, but it also tells the unit to stay put (for the most part) and gaurd the area that they are at and to not break formation to attack anyone unless they get inside that danger zone.
1) With it Off the phalanx soldiers will not stick together as much but they will be much more agressive and will kill more units as they are attacking. This is only really good against an enemy that is not charging you and you are just worried about fighting, not stopping a charge.
2) With it On it is much better for when the unit is halted to take any kind of charge (especially Cavalry). Having it turned off makes the formation be able to be broken up easier, but not by much. Clicking the Phalanx Formation button tells the soldiers to stick together a lot - but the Gaurd button does it again, which may confuse the combat ability of the phalanx into thinking that they are supposed to hold so close together that they can't advance as a group to attack anyone.
This little problem would be fixed if the phalanx's zone of attack is just reduced by a couple feet.
Then again, I'm no expert.
Thrudvang
10-21-2004, 08:14
As the Germans, my main phalax strategy was making varius U shapes with a few Phalax units. I'd get up within a decent range (out of phalax, charging), then set up the U quickly. Then i'd put screetching women and maybe some cavelery within the U if it was reversed (facing me). The enemy will swarm around the phalax and they'll hold off and fight the enemy. The screetching women will sap morale and will send units routing for a little while, then I just use the cavelery and charge their running backs.
They usually go in singles so it's just a matter of chopping down.
Forward Us are mostly offensive, I leave the phalax open like \_/ and then when the enemy comes in I close it up, if there is alot of guys I have back up Us incase I get surrounded.
R'as al Ghul
10-21-2004, 10:44
I can confirm what barocca and Colovion have said.
In my experience there are two "stances" of the phalanx.
Defensive stance:
You have your Phalanx in phalanx mode and guard mode.
This is most immobile and perfect if you're attacked. Your phalanxes work like a wall, everything that charges this wall will be killed. It's good to have your formation deep to repell even cavalry and chariots. Keep in mind that in this mode your phalanx will only kill when charged. Shuffling to the right does occur.
Aggressive stance:
Guard mode off and in phalanx mode:
Your phalanx can move at reasonable speed. When ordered to attack an enemy unit, it will play its "thrusting" animation and will kill. If you had the guard mode on it would only push the opponent away or keep it at bay. You can test this when two phalanxes push against each other and you take yours off guard mode.
I tested this yesterday evening and even my Greec militia hoplites did well against the seleucids scythed chariots. BTW, when two of your phalanxes fight one enemy phalanx, it's most of the time recommended to take one of yours off phalanx mode and attack with the secondary weapon from the rear or flank.
R'as
R'as al Ghul has explained it perfectly,
I would still recommend the double click when using Phalanx in Aggressive Stance,
and preferably at about the same range as if you were using a Hastati or other pilum/javelin armed infantry unit.
I think that - range for a unit to become classed as "charging" - may be a function of game mechanics.
I have to say, after reading this thread yesterday i thought i'd try out the Phalanx formation, i'd not used it before, and i have to agree with Barocca & R'as (& anyone else who's made the point) As soon as i turned off guard, my men couldn't wait to stick the pointy end in the enemy; Otherwise, while attacking they would do a maneuver something similar to doing the Charlston!?! :dizzy2: Which while quite nice didn't really help! :no:
I say who need to guard anyway, attack, attack, attack!
*Ringo*
Vlad Tzepes
10-21-2004, 17:13
Phalanx units start with Gaurd Mode on, yes.
I've done some tests and it seems that the phalanx units attack much better with the Guard mode off (as many here have attested to).
1) With it Off the phalanx soldiers will not stick together as much but they will be much more agressive and will kill more units as they are attacking. This is only really good against an enemy that is not charging you and you are just worried about fighting, not stopping a charge.
2) With it On it is much better for when the unit is halted to take any kind of charge (especially Cavalry).
Then again, I'm no expert.
Well I completely agree, Colovion, and it makes sense. Macedonian Phalanx (which everybody regards as THE model) was supposed to be mainly a pinning unit, designed to hold the opposing army's centre, while faster troops flank and finish the job. While in Guard Mode, in RTW, phalanx won't attack because, logically, guard means defend this position, don't let through.
At Gaugamela, against Darius of the Persians, phalanx were screened and supported by lightly armed Greek troops, that harassed the Persian chariots. Heavy cavalry finished the job.
At Pydna, during the Third Macedonian War, Romans crushed the Macedonians because the rest of their enemies army, not the phalanx, failed to perform correctly. The phalanx held the centre, but the flanking maneuvers from other units never occurred. The Macedonians failed to use correctly their cavalry. Romans managed to swiftly exploit gaps in the phalanx, when Macedonians charged after retreating legions.
So, in RTW, if you use only phalanx armies, you're fried - such was the reality. No cavalry, you're fried. No lighter troops, you're fried as well. Have them and not use them is to get slaughtered anyway. Make a phalanx attack when it's orders are to guard/defend it's suicidal.
I think that, in fact, the whole philosophy of the phalanx is surprisingly well implemented in RTW. Though, I do agree that shuffling to one side is exagerated and that you do have to micromanage phalanx in the battlescreen much more than expected... also it's kind of difficult to understand why, even if on Guard mode, an order to attack/charge leads to side-sliding. Maybe this will be corrected.
frogbeastegg
10-21-2004, 17:56
Quick report: I've been way to busy recently. I've only been able to run one test against the AI with guard off, and none of the other suggestions.
Removing guard did help significantly, but during the course of the 1V1 with another phalanx unit my silver shield pikemen made a complete orbit of the enemy unit, as in shuffling so far that they ended up going the full 360 degrees around the enemy. I kept the replay; on full speed it is quite funny.
I hope to be able to run some more MP tests with Louis tonight.
Doug-Thompson
10-21-2004, 19:17
... during the course of the 1V1 with another phalanx unit my silver shield pikemen made a complete orbit of the enemy unit, as in shuffling so far that they ended up going the full 360 degrees around the enemy. I kept the replay; on full speed it is quite funny.
Is it possible that combining the right drifts of two phalanx units exagerrates this problem?
Not to get over technical, but this kind of dance was a problem, or rather a tendency, during the Peoloponnesian Wars and other Greek vs. Greek battles.
frogbeastegg
10-21-2004, 22:33
Ok, the test is done; here are the results. Forgive me if I keep this very brief; I have way too many things to do.
Flat map, assorted phalanx units with pikes/spears etc. Same as last time, except just Louis and myself.
Guard mode is responsible for the majority of drifting. If guard mode is off, no matter whether the unit is actively attacking or standing so another hits it, drifting will be substantially reduced.
Turning guard mode off does help the unit engage; not only does it reduce the combat dodging drift but it also encourages the unit to get close enough to attack.
With guard mode off telling a unit to walk behind it's target is more successful. Not perfect or the best, but more successful than with guard on.
Single clicking and double clicking: absolutely no noticeable difference between the two. The people still didn’t yell ‘charge’ either, just ‘attack quickly’. Must be a culture voice set thing.
Taking a charge: a unit of Greek cavalry was charged into the front of a unit of Seleucid silver shield pikemen. With guard off the SSP lost roughly 40 men (my number memory is bad, so no exact number. It’s correct, give or take a man or two) and defeated the cav quickly. With guard off they looked as if they performed the same, until you checked the losses – around 60 men. Having guard on was worse. *But* on the guard charge the cav did hit ever so slightly off centre, so this one could use a bit more investigation. This is the only test where I am mildly dubious as to the results. We didn't have enough cav to run it again; we only took 2 units since our tests were not aimed at cav.
If two phalanx units are fighting then it does not matter if you order an attack or not *as long as guard is off*. We found that the results were identical with both phalanxes moving to attack and with one moving to attack, as long as guard was off on both of them. This is handy; it reduces micromanagement as you can turn guard off and let the enemy close while you handle your flanks.
Size definitely does matter; there is no disputing this at all. Pikes will trash anything with a shorter weapon if met head on, even when the enemy phalanx is not shuffling.
With guard mode off I was interested to see my phalanx start forward and attack of their own accord when the enemy phalanx got close enough. It did this in every guard off and standing still test. They begin to attack *roughly* when other infantry units begin their charge.
froggy conclusion: turn guard mode off at all times. If you have to attack yourself a single click is the best way (double click produces the same result but tires your finger out more :p), but if the enemy are coming to you then standing is fine.
Now I shall try to make some headway in my PM/email inboxes. :help:
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
10-22-2004, 13:34
The right drift, although historically correct is a gameplay nuisance. Only for that I'd put phalanx off guard.
On that part CA got history partly right and not gameplay.
It is right that the right drift is the cause of funny unit moving in circle... ~D
And Spears, Hoplite and Phalanx are not the same in real history; but there are no difference between Spears and Hoplite in game (as far as I can tell), and what I'd call Phalanx are the one with long pikes.
The difference is the pike lenght, but in terms of gameplay, they behave roughly the same. Longer pikes are better, that's all ~D
I am a little worried by the frontal cavalry charge against pikes; SSP are rather good pikes, and greek cavalry rather poor cavalry, still SSP got some rather heavy loss on the initial charge. The cavalry jump is just plain ridiculous to see. 40 loss for a good match up against a unit that cost half the price of SSP? Hardly a good performance. Maybe I am still in a MTW set of mind with wrong idea about units supposed to match up, rock, paper, scissor and all that.
I would not always bet on the phalanx in a phalanx vs cavalry fight... How would SSP do vs legionary cavalry?
Louis,
frogbeastegg
10-22-2004, 14:15
The difference between spears and spear using hoplites is all to do with the ability to form phalanx. In phalanx mode the first two ranks fight, but the normal, non-phalanx using spears only ever have the first rank fighting, just like any other unit. Triarii get one rank fighting, hoplites get two. That's the difference, and I find it to be a big one. I think that the hoplite's spears may also be longer than the triarii's. That could be something to look at ...
More tests can only be a good thing. I don't have time to do any for a few days, but if anyone else does I am very interested in hearing what happens.
Anniep, if you send TosaInu a PM he should be able to get your old account back.
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
10-22-2004, 14:42
Oh yes, froggy, you are right...
I was thinking of units able to form Phalanx... Some spears, like Triarii can't form Phalanx.
I was thinking a long the line of spears with phalanx ability and Hoplites (ie the name of the unit) are to be considered the same.
Spears without the phalanx ability are of course of different; in the context of a discussion about phalanx, I forgot those ~D
Louis,
frogbeastegg
10-22-2004, 14:52
:dizzy2: If it has a spear and forms phalanx I call it a phalanx regardless of what it is. If it has a spear and can't form phalanx then it is a spear. If it has a pike and forms phalanx then it is a pike phalanx in the froggy lexicon. So you see when you say spears and hoplites behave the same ... :dizzy2:
I can't wait until we get the 'standardised' names for units a la MTW.
HopAlongBunny
10-22-2004, 16:09
Did a quick custom; this is not definitive ~:)
1 hopolite vs 1 chosen sword
left hoppers on guard to receive the charge => about 2/3rds sword unit died_think there was 26 sword left
swords wrapped and began to slowly cut down hoppers from flanks
disabled guard flank hoppers began to engage swordsman; bulk of unit remaned facing forward ignoring the flank
disabled phalanx, all hoppers engaged swordsmen swithching from pike to sword
end result: 73 sword dead; 50+hoppers dead...this was with the bulk of the swordsmen dieing in the initial charge.
for receiving a charge i guess it doesn't matter if guard is on or not for caualties; turning phalanx off seems to allow the unit to engage units that have wrapped.
from my last campaign (as Greek) I think barocca has it right
edit: have tried it a few more times; results comparable engaging with guard on/off; standing/"charging"; phalanx or phalanx-like units win the initial meeting and will lose if you do not leave phalanx mode
drift was present in all situations...it appears to be less with guard turned off.
Red Harvest
10-22-2004, 20:43
Spears, short phalanx spears, and long phalanx spears/pikes, should all get considerable rank bonuses for depth. I am NOT saying they do. However they should. Part should be defense, part offense, part morale, and part push back. Defense should run deeper than offense, while push back and morale run deeper still.
Here is breakdown of what I'm getting at:
1. The long pikes present 4 spears before the shields, compared to 2 to 3 for standard phalanx units. It seems that the last one doesn't do any killing from a graphical presentation (probably would when someone penetrates close to the shields.) Ok, for the long spears/pikes, even a fifth or sixth row should give some bonuses. The extra rows provide support when someone goes down or in providing some shoving power, etc. For the shorter ones we should see some bonus up to four or five rows. So the extra rows in the very back back should probably not help offensive stats much, but they should help maintain formation, and they should help with "push back" as well as boosting the morale of the men in front.
2. Short spears should get rank bonuses of at least 2 and probably 3 or 4. The first row should be engaged and sometimes the 2nd row (when sword axemen are trying to hack at the 2nd row. The 3rd and 4th should help with push back and filling gaps, as well as boosting morale of the men in front.
3. Swords should *need* some depth as well. It shouldn't boost offense much (ift at all). However, morale would be poor if the men felt unsupported and the men behind the front row would serve some defensive use as well, for helping push if nothing else (though less defensive boost than spears.)
I am currently playing Macedonia after a long campaign with Julli and I have found them pretty straight forward. On normal difficulty, normal size units I in most my armies right now have 8-12 Phalanx Pikemen, 2-3 Light Lancers, and Mercs for missle troops. Trying to build a few Archers now to fill out my Armies.
I tried a peace with Greeks, they turned on me so I had to take them out. After that I knew I had to take Brutti out so I took the (2) provinces Brutti had and crossed the small sea with ships to Italy. There I took out (2) Brutti provinces, (1) Scippi Province, then Rome, then finally last (3) Julli cities.
Currently have near (3) full stacks who are spread out and just took (2) Northern Italy Gaul cities and was planning on going North and West and then pure East taking out Dacia and perhaps most of Germania. Then after creating forts to hold Guals in Spain, with Spain and fort for Brittania, fort for Germania was going to go across and South into Greek, Seleucid territory and finally Egypt. Was just playing to get 30-35 territories but could probably easily get 50.
I just line phanlanx units up across in phalanx formation, highlight them all and just right click ahead on the map to close on the enemy. Separately move up Cavalry on flanks, mostly grouped. Separately move up Geneneral unit behind Phalanx, with any missle troops behind the Phalanx units, also moved up separtely. So micromangement, definitely. Often prepare to pull archers, missle troops back and to flank for charging the enemy when they route.
I judge each as different, and micromanage each. When I close, get close enough often the enemy AI would throw a few pila, their missle troops then attack some too. Starting from the right and going left I just highlight a Phalanx unit and right click on the desired enemy infantry unit. Often I have (2) Phalanx units attack one infantry unit, if I especially outnumber the enemy in infantry units. I close, they close, we all start attacking, its nothing really spetacular. My Phalanx is mostly just a "shield". My Cavalry, up till this point +2-3 exp Light Lancers have been enough to flank and attack the enemy in rear and flanks and that accounts for most of the damage. The Cavalry is the "sword".
Usually after the battle, or towards the end I have phalanx units facing all which ways, in, out, toward each other, but mostly its not to big of a issue, they are still in Phalanx formation.They are just all facing different directions because during the course of the battle I will say, "Hey you attack here,'' seeing a opportunity to flank or outnumber the enemy. At this point its best to wait to watch for right moment to send Cavalry, but it is possible to grap unit and attempt to have them "get out of Phalanx formation and have them run to set up a Phalanx flank attack". Just have to be careful and watch out for last minute enemy Cavalry charges into your Phalanxs often turned backs.
Often for reasons really unknown to me some of the leading men, a few of a Phalanx unit will pop out of and into Phalanx formation, and fight with sword, then switch back to Phalanx. It appears to be mainly if they are being flanked or if the enemy has some how managed to deeply invest themselves into one of my Phalanx units.
I managed to conquer all of Italy without appreciating the ability of Phalanx units to run. During one of my last battles against Gaul I was taking a city and was highly irritated at the Phalanx units desire to run into a breach in the wall and quite literally run all the way in before going to where I wanted them to go.
Watching the first Phalanx unit in the breach get slaughtered mostly by the AI, so me trying to be smart would try to send a Phalanx unit "not in Phalanx formation" but running, hugging the wall, hopeing to avoid the conflict waging in the breach so I could position them to attack in a more advantageous position.
The problem was and I dont know how I missed it before was they would run into the battle, to far into the breach and start fighting with sword, and its not what I wanted.
So I tried playing around with "running" then quickly switching to Phalanx once through the breach and that is probably best bet. Whats interesting is after trying this battle over and over to see what was up with these units I came to appreciate their running ability.
They can be ordered to run, and when you press "f" will rather quickly switch to Phalanx formation. So you have (2) options, it appeared to me: 1) have them charge the enemy then go to Phalanx formation and that works, but if they charge the enemy well, then the leading men of the unit will fight with sword, this is not so bad, for you get well invested into their ranks, and many of the units will still pull out Pikes. Also 2) you can quickly if the enemy unit is near full strength just right before contack switch to Phalanx formation and they will do that too.
I mean I would switch to "no Phalanx formation" double right click on a enemy unit, they would run, and then I had option "with a little micromanagement" to make that individual unit switch to "Phalanx formation" rather quickly.
If the enemy units are near route or half strength then it seems maybe ok to let them get invested in the enemy before switching to Phalanx. If the enemy units are strong then switch to Phalanx right before.
Otherwise in normal battle situations I would just march till close to enemy 8-10 Phalanx units across, and then right to left highlight each individual Phalanx unit and right click on a enemy infantry unit. Seems to work, just have to watch their flanks. Helps if you have more infantry units to begin with. In a battle they are just the shield anyway.
What I still wonder about is their relatively high charge value, and how to use it. I didnt and still do not think they can charge in Phalanx formation. I guessed, and still assume, they get charge bonus when they run into the enemy, which might be to help in breaches, and getting invested in enemy ranks when desired with some degree of shock. I have had some success in switching to Phalanx when doing that when the I outnumber the enemy.
They do have power I see afterwards with battle results, often a +3 Phalanx Pikemen will get many kills and suffer hardly no casulties. Like I said I have generally been successful.
Worst case I saw was in the last Gaul Battle I did, which I ran several times, to try to understand how to do breaches, was (2) near full routed German infantry units just tried to run into my Phalanx units for I had them surrounded, and they routed into a Phalanx unit. I never seen so many units just melt.
I have to admit I still don’t feel like I completely understand them and it has caused me quite some frustration and bewilderment that I have been so successful yet feel like I know nothing. Heck I beat Rome factions without even thinking of using run, which actually causes me more displeasure to realize than satisfaction.
As it stands I just highlight my Phalanx units from right to left and right click once on a single enemy unit to attack. They stay in Phalanx formation and attack mostly organized left to right in North South formation until the enemy starts to route or die. I am satisfied with them being a shield and my Calvary the sword I just wish I understood the Phalanx unit better.
I just checked, Guard mode is on by default. I never really noticed, to change it. That means I have always fought with it on. I never switched it off for my units.
What that means for me on normal diff, normal size units, based on my success I have no idea. They do fight, I have seen it, they do fight organized, in Phalanx formation, they do kill the enemy, I seen it. The fact I have always had it on, I have no idea what that means.
Would they be more effective with it off, I have no idea, they are pretty effective as it is. Lately I just finished off Roman factions, many with +exp.
Now that I think about it, I cant really see a reason for it being on, since I have been mostly attacking. Maybe they would be less likely to engage in sword, and more flexible with their Phalanx formation, but I am grasping. Like I said, sword only seems to occur when heavily invested or flanked with a few units with guard on.
I learned another new thing, lol, after spending 20+ hours playing Macedonia, lol, apparently you can disable Phalanx formation, go to loose, then back to Phalanx and have a loose, wider, Phalanx formation which I am embarassed to admit.
I am kinda under the impression Guard mode reduces attack chance, damage output (something/trade off), but increases defense rating. Pure guess. With Roman Faction I never had guard mode on, unless in certain situations on defensive, never attacking.
Perhaps my Phalanx units would be even more effective with guard mode off. I will have to see.
I have not really experienced as many issues using Phalanx units as some of the posters in this thread. I have for the most thoroughly enjoyed them. My experience has been mostly straightforward but I do have some questions and have had to spend some time thinking about them. It is this endeavor that has brought me here, now. And so I have attempted to read each post in this thread and combine it with my knowledge and experience to create a more complete description of what we are all seeing. Hopefully it can be built upon, and eventually we will understand all the game mechanics of the Phalanx unit. Of all the different ways I have described using Phalanx units none of them are purely defensive, in that you just sit there and do nothing, hence they all have (offensive) to the right of them.
The Phalanx Attacks
Phalanx Line Attack Aggressive
Phalanx Line Attack Defensive
Phalanx Unit-by-Unit Attack Aggressive
Phalanx Unit-by-Unit Attack Defensive
Phalanx Run Attack Invest
Phalanx Run Attack Stop Short
Phalanx Line Attack
-Aggressive (offensive)
Highlight all Phalanx formations, take them off of guard mode and right mouse drag a new formation line behind the enemy. The Phalanx formations will move toward the new destination, fights the enemy once engaged and fights aggressively. Aggressively means they will not guard this area, will more or less maintain Phalanx formation but will move and follow the enemy, crossing other Phalanx lines. You can in this situation advantageously have “what might seem impossible” a Phalanx inside another Phalanx formation fighting together. However it is harder to maintain unit responsiveness in that so many men can be so intertwined. I mean those units are more or less committed and it will take a bit of time to reposition them for a attack in another direction, which is highly dependent if they are still engaged with the enemy. It is perhaps best used when you are greatly superior to the enemy in numbers or quality. For once these Phalanx units are aggressively engaged it is hard to maintain a solid line or “hold a cohesive line”. These Phalanx units being more aggressive will often have their flanks and rear exposed to enemy attacks as they position themselves aggressively to engage the enemy. A General would also have to be watchful of all his Phalanx units, because those not engaged with the enemy will continue to their destination if not engaged with the enemy.
-Defensive (offensive)
Highlight all Phalanx formations, leave them on guard mode and right mouse drag a new formation line behind the enemy. Phalanx Line Attack Defensive is potentially more predictable and conservative. As the units move to their new destination they will once engaged with the enemy, stop and protect themselves and essentially “guard this area”. A General would have to be watchful of his Phalanx units, because those not engaged with the enemy will continue to their destination if not engaged with the enemy. Phalanx formations would be apt to stay in formation, and most of the killing would be the result of the enemy attacking the Phalanx formations. Phalanx formations will be more apt to maintain formation and will not actively, attack the enemy and the potential for a more cohesive, front line is assured. Phalanx units will guard the ground and not cross over each others formations, unless ordered to attack a enemy unit as opposed to aggressive which does it naturally. Guard Mode by Nature is Guard this area. Guard/Defensive Phalanx formations tend to not xcrossx another phalanx formation, and tend to keep their shape and consequently can be easier to extract and reposition.
When these highlighted Phalanx units are “walking” toward this new destination you have right drag clicked behind the enemy they will walk in Phalanx formation if in Phalanx formation, or you can have them run, either way switch to Phalanx plenty time before engaging enemy. Also “backspace” can be used to stop immediately all highlighted units and “F” then to switch to Phalanx formation.
Phalanx Unit-by-Unit Attack
For either –aggressive or –defensive Phalanx Unit-by-Unit Attack wait till the enemy engages (ultimate defensive) or until they start to charge (defensive-offensive), or you are less than one unit width away (offensive) before selecting individual units to attack for this will help you maintain your frontline.
-Aggressive (offensive)
This mode, Phalanx Unit by Unit Aggressive is essentially moving up your Phalanx units in a cohesive line by having them all highlighted r-clicking a destinatin in front of the enemy, and then selectively, starting from the right or left going down the line and assigning each Phalanx unit an enemy unit to attack. The unit-by-unit attack and the aggressive attack in general might be best when you are superior to the enemy in number or quality, or when the enemy is about to rout. One could start defensive as a alternative to starting aggressive and once the enemy commits and you feel satisfied you have the advantage just highlight “ctrl-a double click unit card” all Phalanx units and switch too aggressive for example if previously defensive. This could also be done on a unit-by-unit basis if one previously started defensive to take advantage of flanking opportunities or to take advantage of local superiority in numbers on the battlefield.
If one moves up Phalanx units in a cohesive line and selectively assigns each Phalanx unit a enemy unit to attack one must watch for the aggressive Phalanx units opening gaps in the line or exposing themselves to flanking and rear attacks. On aggressive, the Phalanx units once ordered will actively engage, and follow the enemy unit as it shuffles from one position to another. This can cause the aggressive Phalanx unit to cross another friendly Phalanx unit’s formation, exposing its flanks, and opening a hole in the front line.
-Defensive (offensive)
This mode, Phalanx Unit by Unit Defensive is essentially moving up your Phalanx units in a cohesive line, and then selectively, starting from the right or left going down the line and assigning each Phalanx unit an enemy unit to attack. You can do this either with the intent to be either offensive or defensive.
In guard mode Phalanx formations will attack an enemy and move toward an enemy once an enemy is right clicked but will fight and engage in guarded mode formation. Meaning the Phalanx formation will not actively (a frontline Pikemen even on guard/defensive mode would probably argue that point), aggressively engage the enemy and for the most part the enemy kill themselves attacking the pikes. The Pike formations in Guard Mode will move toward the enemy, stop once the enemy is engaged, will maintain formation, and not follow the enemy.
This is the most defensive formation other than Phalanx Line Attack Defensive in that you can wait till the enemy commits then selectively determine how to respond by choosing which Phalanx unit you want to engage what enemy infantry unit. Wait till the enemy or you are relatively close before selecting and giving individual orders because you want to maintain a fairly cohesive front line. When you are ready you could for example send two Phalanx units to engage one powerful Infantry unit. One could even call it a defensive-offense; if you unit by unit choose the particular enemy unit you want pinned on the front line.
You could start off as a Phalanx Line Attack Defensive and then switch to Phalanx Unit by Unit Defensive as needed and as you engage the enemy and the battleground develops. You could also attack with the intent of being offensive but perhaps more conservatively and with more control by using Phalanx Unit by Unit Defensive initially.
Even though you are sending individual units to attack/guard/defend against individual enemy units to pin them on the line with Phalanx Unit by Unit Defensive one would still have to work to maintain frontline cohesion and work to protect the Phalanx’s flanks and rear. Typically as opposed to aggressive this is an overall more conservative and predictable approach to the enemy and consequently you should have more control. Here one could also easily switch if appropriate on a unit-by-unit basis or all at once, to aggressive if desired.
Phalanx Run Attack
Invest
Phalanx Run Attack Invest is charging your Phalanx units with sword into the enemy then having them switch to “f” Phalanx formation. I have had success using this on breaches taking cities. It is also a good opportunity to quickly move from one spot to another to attack the enemy in the flank or rear. If an enemy unit is currently engaged, charge them in their flank and quickly change to Phalanx especially if the enemy unit is near routing or low in number.
Stop Short
Phalanx Run Attack Stop Short is running a Phalanx unit to attack an enemy unit but stopping short and forming Phalanx formation. This is best when the enemy unit is currently unengaged, full health, and the Phalanx unit is a vanguard unit on the battlefield. In this case it would be best to await the second Phalanx unit, and if possible let it do a Phalanx Run Attack Invest.
Battle Tactics and other Future Questions
Shield and Sword Philosophy
Is that you allow, work to pinning, keeping the enemy infantry engaged in the frontline, while the enemy exhaust themselves you move your Cavalry to either attack the enemy in the rear if needed to push them to rout and you prepare the Cavalry to attack the enemy when it does decide to flee and routs. The actual killing is the destruction of the enemy as it flees the battlefield. Maintaining the line, cohesion, and protection of flanks is most important job and responsibility of the front line Phalanx units. That’s how I understand the philosophy and if I could I would point to a better description on the Internet. It is my opinion and playing experience with Macedonia that Calvary are the sword and the killers. The Pikemen are ruthless and the enemy exhausts themselves trying to fight them and take casualties and eventually give up, and when enough do, the whole enemy army routs, and then its time to chase them down. Using them in primarily aggressive mode to me creates a situation that goes against the Shield and Sword Philosophy. They are not as mobile as Hastati or other Faction infantry units, and vulnerable when not in Phalanx formation which leads me to believe their best use is a shield.
Phalanx Charge
Phalanx Units like Macedonia have a relatively high charge value compared to other infantry units which makes you wonder not only how to use it but also what does it mean.
How to use it? Because they can’t run in Phalanx formation and you need to run to charge. Nobody knows for certain that double r-click in Phalanx formation produces a charge. There is no reason to believe it does that I am aware of. I do not as of now believe double r-clicking does anything. Somehow possibly related to this, they say for example that the defense of a Macedonian Phalanx Pikemen is 13, which one would think has to be in Phalanx formation, so when not in Phalanx formation their defense must be really low. Their sword in this case is only 5, barely enough to match Hastati, however taking all this into consideration one asks can they charge in Phalanx formation? One would think so, far as I know and believe it appears they can only charge when running, when not in Phalanx formation and in essence cant charge in Phalanx formation. Why? That just seems the way it is. I could be wrong.
I have formed the belief that they can only charge when running, when not in Phalanx formation and its purpose is to get invested in the enemy. By invested I mean to crack their line, and then form Phalanx, which creates a situation of having multiple Pikes piercing the enemy formation, rapidly. In essence it works out about the same in result.
Attacking not Attacking
If the enemy attacks the Phalanx formation they will die. Sometimes it takes time, sometimes, occasionally you might need to highlight a Phalanx unit and r-click on an enemy unit to get it to reposition itself in a more favorable position. In guard/defensive mode the killing will be relatively slow in Vanilla RTW, then the killing might speed up as they enemy becomes shaken and moral is lost. It takes sometimes a second or two for the enemy and Phalanx formation to form up, to engage properly. I have witnessed no issue with this. Sometimes you will look at the frontline and see 1-2 dead enemy infantry, then quickly a third of the enemy unit is gone, then they rout, etc. It depends on your formation frontage, number of men in front of Phalanx and who you are attacking, their defense rating. I typically have had 10 wide by 6 deep with Phalanx Pikemen, but it really depends on the infantry front line. I want to if I can be a little wider than their front line.
20 wide 3 deep
Is there not reason to believe that since only the first 2-3 are engaged in fighting, that it might be appropriate to go 20 wide? Especially when attacking, perhaps? Or other situations.
Double r-click
I haven't noticed any real difference between single clicking and double clicking enemy units with Phalanx units. Double click is just run for all I know. Phalanx units can only charge in non-Phalanx formation far as I know.
Phalanx shuffle
Phalanx shuffle is probably most pronounced when a lone Phalanx unit attacks another lone Phalanx unit, such as when you have Phalanx mercenary auxiliary engagements. However when you have an army of Phalanx units the shuffle tends to not be noticeable for the numbers of the units restrict their movement from left to right. Also 12+ Phalanx units do not shuffle to the right during a major battle, especially if they are on “guard mode”, however if they are on “aggressive mode” they will chase/engage/shuffle with the enemy. This last mode the aggressive mode could wreak havoc with your front line and in some cases is worse than a shuffle for they can end up facing the opposite way of the enemy.
Phalanx Formations
Keys () These keys can be used to move a Phalanx formation. You can also right mouse click or right mouse click drag a new formation and direction. It appears it might be quickest to first get out of phalanx formation “f”, wheel around, then switch back “f”.
U shapes
Thrudvang mentioned U Shapes and I think formation Shapes could be, and probably should be explored some more.
Phalanx Formation, Loose Formation
Purpose? Uses?
In my last post I said, “Perhaps my Phalanx units would be even more effective with guard mode off. I will have to see.” I have come to the conclusion it depends on what you mean by effective. Is effectiveness holding a cohesive, strong frontline, or is effectiveness, killing many enemies. I think there is a trade off, and the decision depends on your battle tactics and overall strategy and to maximize the two you definitely need to enjoy, possibly be prepared to micromanage your units.
Doug-Thompson
11-18-2004, 03:27
Custom battle. Medium difficulty. Greek hoplites vs. Juliaii Haspati. Grassy flatlands. Human player deploys the Greeks. Large unit size.
1.Left the hoplites on default formation rank and file. Turned on phalanx. Turned off guard mode. Ordered an attack with one click. No other human intervention.
Phalanx won with 44 men remaining out of 81, including recovered wounded.
2. Put the hoplites in a formation only two ranks deep. Everything else the same. (Formation was slightly closer to enemy because it was put into its new formation slightly ahead of the starting position.)
Phalanx won with 71 men remaining, including recovered wounded.
Also of note: Phalanx drift to the right was serious in the default depth and negligible in the shallow depth. In fact, the shallow phalanx drifted to the left for quite a while after running out of Romans to kill on the right.
=========
Same thing only with the Romans having Equites.
1. Regular formation; Roman defeated. 71 hoplites left.
2. Thin formation. Romans defeated. No losses. Not even wounded.
Against the regular formation, the Romans charged, got beat, retreated, circled around a bit and charged again, hitting a corner. They only charged the thin formation once.
Interesting. Does the thin formation wrap around the enemy lines?
Orvis Tertia
11-18-2004, 03:45
This is quite interesting indeed. I think it's pretty obvious that--in terms of realism and historical accuracy--the results should have been just the opposite.
Sin Qua Non
11-18-2004, 04:10
A thin line in front of several 8+ ranked lines works wonders against cavalry and sometimes even chariots. The first row screens the formation, distrupting the cavalry, while the heavy formation behind don't have the charge bonus to worry about.
Doug-Thompson
11-18-2004, 04:11
Interesting. Does the thin formation wrap around the enemy lines?
No. I tried switching off phalanx in the middle of one battle so it would, and the result was disaster.
Experience with lousy, non-phalanx spears (Eastern Infantry) does result in lapping around.
This is quite interesting indeed. I think it's pretty obvious that--in terms of realism and historical accuracy--the results should have been just the opposite.
I couldn't agree more. However, I repeated this little stunt four more times with the hastati tonight. The smallest number of phalanx survivors after five tries was 58 men. The largest was 78.
In order, the number of phalanx survivors were: 71, 58, 71(again), 66 and 78. This includes the healed wounded.
Doug-Thompson
11-18-2004, 04:12
A thin line in front of several 8+ ranked lines works wonders against cavalry and sometimes even chariots. The first row screens the formation, distrupting the cavalry, while the heavy formation behind don't have the charge bonus to worry about.
What about a thin line backed by another thin line?
Red Harvest
11-18-2004, 04:32
CA nerfed the formation depth effects in RTW, either that or they omitted them altogether. Missile units are another example of the problem (as your horse archer tests have shown, as well as my own tests of jav, slingers, and archers.)
I've been deploying my phalangites 4 deep because I quickly learned that deep phalanx formations were not of any use and were instead a liability.
There is one other aspect that is harder to judge: multiple units. I suspect that two multi-rank lines side by side will perform better than two thin lines one behind the other when facing two or more attackers. I suspect the thin line will suffer casualties quickly allowing the two to be defeated in detail. However, the two might behave differently if they "stack." Hmm, I'll have to try this.
I really hope the major problems can be fixed when the patch(es) arrive(s). Right now the fighting side of the engine pales in comparison to MTW. ~:mecry:
Jeanne d'arc
11-18-2004, 04:34
In default formation the hastati wraps around both left and right flank of the phalanx and maybe this is why there are more losses.
In a two rank deep formation the hastati have no chanche to make it to the flanks of the phalanx, they just get impaled by spears and cant even get close enough to make any casualties on the phalanx.
GodsPetMonkey
11-18-2004, 05:10
More interested in finding why its happening (although I had a few good ideas) then actually see it happen I decided to try it out.
Using pricepes rather then hastati vs normal hoplites, with the default 5 ranks, its pretty easy to spot the main problem, the pricepes work arround the hoplites, so whilst from the front, they get slaughted, the real fun in on the sides, and ultimately thats where the losses come from.
http://www.users.on.net/~roehr/flanked.jpg
But apart from that, it seems as if most of the time, the 2nd and 3rd rows never get to fight with their spears! http://www.users.on.net/~roehr/rows.jpg. The circles show that the red and blue (3rd and 2nd) rows all pretty much line up, whilst the green (1st) row are doing tho fighting, so while we do have the potential of more then one spear attacking a target at the same time, the target doesnt seem to get close enough for the other rows to be in range. Thus the 'new' rank bonus is negated by tubby romans unable to pass between the first row of spears!
Of course, this same problem happens with the thin ranks. What really gives thin ranks more power is the fact that the AI isnt smart enough to attack the flank. http://www.users.on.net/~roehr/thinrow.JPG, so they end up trying to push though the ranks of spears infront of them, a virtual date with Death.
Doug-Thompson
11-18-2004, 05:10
CA nerfed the formation depth effects in RTW, either that or they omitted them altogether.
Agreed --Which pretty much voids years of hard-won experience on how to fight with spears in the Total War series.
Missile units are another example of the problem (as your horse archer tests have shown, as well as my own tests of jav, slingers, and archers.)
Small correction here. You're giving me credit for tests by Frogbeastegg and Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe. I just applied their findings, as did other players.
I'm interested in the results of any "stacking," as you mention.
In default formation the hastati wraps around both left and right flank of the phalanx and maybe this is why there are more losses.
In a two rank deep formation the hastati have no chance to make it to the flanks of the phalanx, they just get impaled by spears and cant even get close enough to make any casualties on the phalanx.
That's very true, especially in the initial stages. By the time the phalanx drifts in the thin formation and there is some wrapping around the edge, there aren't enough hastati left to make a difference.
The bizzare thing, though, is that the thin line drifts to the left. It keeps doing this. It wasn't a fluke, as I thought.
Much seems to depend on whether the spears hit on-center or off, but that's just how it appears.
Sin Qua Non
11-18-2004, 05:23
What about a thin line backed by another thin line?
Yes, this also works, but sometimes cavalry can break through two thin lines. No real matter, since most barring cataphracts will be distrupted and cut down. I just like the full phalanx behind the thin line because I find it easier to reform the line as the battle dictates.
I've even been tinkering with stringing a thin line of archers in the open space between the pike points and the first rank of a phalanx, so that they are protected by the pikes, but don't distrupt the formation or cause friendly casualties. It's been mixed results. If the archers survive the initial charge (and don't run at the enemy like idiots), then they can cause significant casualties in the perfect section - the front row of the enemy's melee.
Doug-Thompson
11-18-2004, 05:26
What really gives thin ranks more power is the fact that the AI isnt smart enough to attack the flank ... so they end up trying to push though the ranks of spears infront of them, a virtual date with Death.
Undeniably so, GPM. I was going to argue that the thin rank also has more spear points in the front rank. Then I realized that doesn't matter -- 1 vs. 1, most of those extra points are wasted. They're poking the air because a phalanx doesn't wrap.
I'm no serious scholar of ancient history, but IIRC the spears in the 2nd and 3rd ranks were slightly longer to give more of a solid mass of points.
Red Harvest
11-18-2004, 09:15
Well, I tried to do some tests, but I've modded the unit size of those guys to give a wider frontage (120 men.) So they do too well vs. hastati one-on-one (but with more upkeep etc.) The AI did so many stupid random things with its hastati that I couldn't draw many conclusions...except that the AI is incredibly inept. It was standing there holding it's pila overhand while I was jabbing away for quite awhile. The AI even managed to lose 2 vs. 1...argggggggggghhhhh. (I've been thinking about slightly modding down the offensive stats of the newly enlarged phalangite units--I want them durable, hence the size, but not fast killers.) I went to the larger size after using the German spear warbands...that was a real eye opener as to the effect of unit size on phalanx power in the game.
The 2nd row of spears is fighting. The 3rd very, very rarely has anyone to stab at. In real life deep phalanx units achieved considerable pushing ability from what I have read. They generally were pushing troops back. And the ultra deep formations were there to add a lot of punch. The references and diagrams I'm looking at are indicating a single spear length, but I've seen mention of increasing spear length with rank position elsewhere. So I dunno. Macedonian sarissa were longer at about 19-22 ft ("long_pike") and 5 spear points would be in front of each file. They were two handed weapons held underhand. The greek hoplite spears were shorter (6-10 feet) and it appears they used them overhand/single handed in combat (?) but manouvered with them held at the waist (and charged that way apparently.) That's quite different than how they are shown in the game. Realistically no more than two ranks would be fighting with that style (although the rear ranks would help in shoving and filling any gaps.)
Sidelight:
Did some archer tests since I was on the "practice field". Again the AI was stupid. When I gave it vanilla roman archers vs. my 120 man greek hops, it marched them up to pila range. So I did a stationary test where they killed 19 (of 121) in phalanx with 10 volleys.
Next I took command of the archers and let them march to me once then marched to them and started firing on subsequent tests. I disabled skirmish mode partway there, since the shorter range on these guys made it tough to get in 10 volleys (should have used 6 or so :embarassed: ) Result: archery is HOSED. Everyone fires whether the archer line is 2 ranks deep, 6 ranks deep, or 16 (yes, 16) ranks deep. The only difference is that with 16 ranks, they don't fire as early because they have to wait for the rear guys to get in range. 2 ranks = 19 kills in 10 volleys (2% per volley) 6 ranks deep = 15 kills in 8 volleys, 16 ranks deep = 19 kills in 7 volleys. Very, very disappointing.
I think Total War has always given an edge to thin lines - which favours the smart human over the AI working with the default chunky formations. In STW, I think there were no rank bonuses. In MTW, spreading your swords or cav thinning was a killer.
Doug - I wonder what would happen with better cavalry than equites? Absorbing a cavalry charge seems to be the only reason I would go for a deeper formation.
It is regrettable as what little I know about pre-gunpowder warfare implies that some depth of formation was important. Partly it may be because fighting hand-to-hand in armour is so tiring (a TV programme showed a fit young man in armour being exhausted after a minute and a half of intensively fighting multiple adversaries). Having depth allows you to "rotate" your frontline, replacing exhausted troops with fresher ones. I always wondered about modding MTW to give rank bonuses to non-spears!
Watchman
11-18-2004, 12:03
AFAIK that rotation trick was a difficult one to pull off, and required the somewhat demanding combination of comparatively loose order and well-trained troops. The Roman infantry did it, and it gave them a major edge against the disorderly barbarian hordes who crowded thick against the Roman line and the individual warriors couldn't retreat out of the way no matter how wounded or tired they became. That sort of thing is prime breeding ground for anxiety and eventually panic, with well-known results.
Phalanxes were probably way too dense to allow for that sort of rotation, but then again I've read a phalangite's most important traits were considered to be stamina and discipline, so the formation kept together and steadily and (fairly) tirelessly mowed down anything before it.
But then, the historical Ancient phalanxes tended to be huge affairs of thousands of men in a single rectamgular block hundreds of meter wide and up to sixteen ranks deep. The ones in Rome don't exactly compare...
As a side note the fairly small six-man deep pikeman rectangles the Swedish introduced into the Thirty Years' war seemed to hold their ground quite well against the huge, deep tercios most others initially used. Even if you factor in the considerable organic fire support they had, it makes you wonder if formation depth really is all that important in the "push of pikes".
...anyone feel like testing how well a long, thin line of phalangites does against a deeper, narrower phalanx in a head-on clash...?
The_Emperor
11-18-2004, 12:26
The real problem we have with the Phalanx is the inability to create a solid unbroken line. The natural gaps between the units always makes things worse.
When a unit does its natural "wrap around" all it takes is for a couple of guys to get into that gap on the flanks and the Phalanx will start having trouble.
In a sense this "wrap around effect" is a real problem in the way the game works, its a cheap method of auto-flanking without taking the Pushback from deep formations into consideration... It was a problem before and it remains a problem now, but it probably can't be avoided until Rank Pushback is included.
I've even been tinkering with stringing a thin line of archers in the open space between the pike points and the first rank of a phalanx, so that they are protected by the pikes, but don't distrupt the formation or cause friendly casualties. It's been mixed results. If the archers survive the initial charge (and don't run at the enemy like idiots), then they can cause significant casualties in the perfect section - the front row of the enemy's melee.
Which would potentially work very well with the Germans using their Chosen Archers and Spearband or the Egyptians with their Pharoh's Archers and Nile Spearmen. Both types of archer are better than average when it comes to melee, so they should hold up a lot better.
Paul Peru
11-18-2004, 13:05
One more finding in the "useful to know, slightly cheesy to exploit"-bag, then.
:dizzy2:
The bizzare thing, though, is that the thin line drifts to the left. It keeps doing this. It wasn't a fluke, as I thought.
Perhaps a medium depth can be found where they stay put?
I find most battles are decided on who routs first, rather than simple killing ability (though obviously the two are intimately connected!), and therefore would be interested to know what effect unit depth had on morale - ie, would a thin, two rank phalanx be more likely to rout than a deep one?
If the computer calculates the morale of each soldier depending on how many allies they are in contact with, whether the whole unit is contiguous etc, it could have a major effect - in a two rank formation each soldier can only be in contact with a maximum of 5 allies, any greater depth and all troops except the front and back rank could potentially be in contact with 8. Also, a cavalry charge may be repelled by a two rank phalanx, but even so, the charge may make temporary gaps in the formation, even if they only last for a few seconds, it cold effectively split the unit into two or more seperate bodies of men - I'd guess this might make routing more likely?
Though of course the lack of wrap around in the shallow formation would improve morale as well...
just a few notes...in the total realism mod there was an ability to form units into an unbroken "phalanx" line - i've since had to uninstall the modded install and i'm really missing that ability :embarassed: possibly contacting mods involved would yield a standalone "phalanx ability" mod
as for hoplites (with 6 meter spears) charging with their spears underarm...hmmm- not sure, i think this limited the effectiveness of their spear thrusts over the wall of shields (the impact of the charge could also cause you to maim the guy behind you with the butt spike of the spear), though to take cavalry charges they braced their spears into the ground underarm (sorry, nitpicking...)
KyodaiSteeleye
11-18-2004, 14:34
One thing in MTW - lots of peeps advocated the 'swordsmen in 2 ranks' theory. However, what i found was that there were two drawbacks to this:-
1) as troops get killed, and your second rank starts to empty, holes appear in the unit formation, and this did seem to lead to routs (either because formation was disrupted, or they were getting doubled more, not sure)
2) if you have all of your infantry in double rank formations, try manouvering them around the battlelines successfully! - thinner formations can exploit holes in the line much easier, and are far less likely to 'hit' enemy units by mistake, and so get embroiled in combats you don't want, or losing charge bonuses.
I agree however, that wider formations for phalanxes seem to make sense (in the game)- but what is their holding power in this formation? - does it give less time for your flanking forces to get engaged? Also - thin formations should theoretically be much more susceptable to heavy cavalry charges, as they should smash right through the 2 line formation and out the other side > rout.
Doug-Thompson
11-18-2004, 16:28
Red Harvest;
Yes, the archers and the phalanx are two results from the same cause: The complete disappearance of rank as a factor of its own. The only question now is, do you want a compact formation able to manuever (especially change facing quickly) or a thin one that can cover a lot of front?
I've been far less critical of R:TW than others, but this just isn't right.
=========
Simon Appleton;
I'll charge a bunch of cataphracts into some hoplites tonight.
Doug-Thompson
11-18-2004, 16:32
But then, the historical Ancient phalanxes tended to be huge affairs of thousands of men in a single rectangular block hundreds of meter wide and up to sixteen ranks deep. The ones in Rome don't exactly compare...
And
The real problem we have with the Phalanx is the inability to create a solid unbroken line. The natural gaps between the units always makes things worse.
The only way to get the proportions close to correct would be to link multiple units in an unbroken front, in my opinion.
The Macedonian Phalanx of Roman times was deeper and, frankly, less maneuverable than Alexander's
Say --quite arbitrarily -- that the typical hoplite formation of 80 (large unit size) is supposed to be part of the "classic," somewhat flexible phalanx a la Alexander, and that the 120-man unit is supposed to be part of the newer, more dense Macedonian model with longer pikes.
Alexander's phalanx was 16 ranks deep and 256 files wide. This gives a depth-to-front ratio of 1 to 16. This contained (at full strength) 4,096 troops.
Take five large unit-size hoplite formations at their default depth of five ranks. Put them end to end. This results in:
A group five ranks deep and 80 files wide, a perfect 1 to 16 depth-to-front ratio. It contains 400 men -- a 97.7 percent-pure little 1/10th scale model of the classic Alexandrian phalanx.
In my opinion, phalanx should not be a special ability for one group of 80 or so spear types but a special group formation, a "hard" grouping that only phalanx-type units can employ that eliminates the gaps between units. The hoplites can "ungroup" if they need to change facing rapidly, moving the individual units, and "regroup" when facing the desired direction. There should also be a rank bonus maximized for a depth-to-front ratio of about 1-to-16, or deeper in the case of longer pikes.
Doug-Thompson
11-18-2004, 16:41
One more finding in the "useful to know, slightly cheesy to exploit"-bag, then.
:dizzy2:
Guilty as charged, but at least my intentions were good. ~;) I wanted to give a simple, clear demonstration of what's wrong with spear units in R:TW. I think it worked.
Perhaps a medium depth can be found where they stay put?
Wondered that myself, but would bet that a three-rank formation would get wrapped again.
========
Fridge and KyodaiSteeleye;
I will soon know more about how brittle a thin line is when charged by cavalry. Beyond that, I just don't know how all this plays out in a real fight. These are not the type of questions that can really get answered in a simplistic custom-battle demonstration with only one human. I know that long, thin formations are much harder to maneuver and to change facing.
The relative smallness of phalanx formations seems to be a problem.
In addition, something should be done about the way charging mounted troops can leap directly into the front of a phalanx and cause everyone nearby to draw their swords thus wrecking the entire formation.
I remove the space between each phalanx unit by using a double line. I draw out half my units in 3-4 ranks and then draw the other half directly over the first line just a few files off to one side. The result is a very compact formation that is hard to maneuver with but it does the job ~:)
CBR
Red Harvest
11-18-2004, 17:49
Depth was very important because the push back was used to destroy the enemy formation. Athenians used a base level of 8 deep, Spartans 12, Thebans 25 and the Macedonians up to nearly 50 in some situations (although 16 was normal and 32 "double depth.") These larger units were being used like human battering rams to destroy other hoplite phalanx units. The formations were already dense, so adding that much depth would have been made them into a streamroller. I really don't understand what kept the men in the first ranks from being crushed...unless of course, their opponent was pushed back.
The observation about MTW was on the money. If you used thin lines, they became weak after a few casualties. As a result each of us learned to use depths that provided an optimum of hitting power and durabitily (depending on play style and situation.)
I'm sure I'm still missing alot on the intricacies of ancient warfare but this is what I'm gathering at the moment: phalanx formations were typically quite large in full size armies: around 2 to 4,000 per wing was not uncommon although they did have smaller divisions within of 256 men, 1000, etc. They didn't have to operate as a block per wing, but it appears that they often did. A phalanx wing of 4,000 was more men than the entire hastati/principes/triarii of a single legion. It's an intersting comparison when you think about it. The Roman system is similarly deep...but in multiple lines, whereas the phalanx is a compact single line.
To make something like this in RTW you need to have individual phalanx components sort of welded together, but still breakable at the joints. The Romans exploited any breaks in the formation, so you still want phalangite sub units do be prone to getting disordered, taking too many casualties etc. However, the AI and the human need to be able to wield the phalangites more like a line. It's a tough balancing act: a hard, but brittle phalanx.
On the other hand, you can also see where the Roman system should work against the phalanx. The phalanx can't afford to push forward (or fall back) too much in any sectio or it creates a vulnerable gap, one the Roman infantry was designed to very effectively exploit. The phalangites also are prone to being disordered by any obstacles in their path or breaks in the terrain. So during melee, the phalangites are all stuck in their deep formation unable to rotate to rest. Meanwhile the Romans can attack in thin waves keeping a steady pressure, with the previous wave falling back to catch their breath (since their formations did not need to be rigid and deep.) It would be interesting to see how this drill was carried out.
The high kill rates of RTW (or any TW game) cause problems with the idea though. You can't effectively disengage sword infantry, and they take a lot of casualties fighting so they nearly always fight to the death. So you can't really pull back your hastati in sections, then advance princeps, etc. as the Romans apparently did. It would look kind of dull waiting for the phalangites to wear down and become disordered while your hastati get pushed back, then replaced by princeps, then perhaps hastati again, etc. until the phalanx wore down or became disordered or caused enough damage to your legion (or legion's position) to win.
I really don't understand what kept the men in the first ranks from being crushed...unless of course, their opponent was pushed back.
When units bunched up, as they did sometimes, the front ranks were crushed with dead men still standing up. but that was extreme cases that didnt happen often. It was not good tactics to let rear ranks run up and push the front ranks that were fighting. But it could happen with badly trained and enthusiastic units during a charge or if front ranks were forced back (because of cavalry for example)
For pike units where the first 5 ranks were supposed to level their pikes it would have spelled disaster and total disorder if men came up from behind and started pushing. Close order and discipline was vital for such units but not too close heh.
Units need a certain depth so they will fight for some time and 6-8 ranks was considered minimum. The hellenistic system operated with one line only so more men were just added to make the line stronger. The Romans changed that by using multiple lines each of around 8 ranks (6-10 depending on era and losses)
CBR
I have read somewhere that in the greek system they did push. It is hard to imagine, Japanese underground comes to closest perhaps, or american football. I will find the reference.
Doug-Thompson
11-18-2004, 19:25
Also - thin formations should theoretically be much more susceptable to heavy cavalry charges, as they should smash right through the 2 line formation and out the other side > rout.
and
In addition, something should be done about the way charging mounted troops can leap directly into the front of a phalanx and cause everyone nearby to draw their swords thus wrecking the entire formation.
Now that's the whole problem in a nutshell regarding cavalry.
As per Simon Appleton's request, I charged a unit of cataphracts at a unit of hoplites in phalanx -- over and over again.
It didn't matter if the hoplites were two ranks deep, five ranks deep or NINE ranks deep. Every time -- even in the instance of nine ranks -- at least one cataphract leapt all the way to the back of the line, formation was blown and the hoplites drew their swords. This instantly converted the phalanx from a wall of spears to a mediocre melee unit. Also, formations became more prone to getting wrapped the deeper they were.
============
After some more frustrating experiments, I got myself two 80-man vanilla Greek hoplite units (which cost the same as the one Parthian cataphract) and used Sin Qua Non's trick, slightly modified.
I put one hoplite phalanx two ranks deep. I left a space -- sorry, I can't say how wide. I was going by feel. Then I strung out another phalanx two ranks deep behind the first and the open space.
Medium difficulty. Grassy flatlands. Phalanx on. Guard mode off.
I stayed put until the cataphracts started charging, then hit one-click attack for both units. The cataphracts hit the first thin line of spears. The ones that leapt either landed on the first phalanx or in the space in between the two phalanxes. Either way, the flying cataphracts were back on the ground with no room to charge and facing a second fully formed, advancing unit of bristling spears.
The first try was a complete success. The 55-man cataphracts routed with 23 of their number left. There were 31 survivors left from my first phalanx and a negligible four losses from the second. Notably, some of the routing survivors of the first phalanx had gotten away by fleeing through the thin ranks of the second.
The next try put the two phalanxs a little closer together, but that did not work so well. The flying cataphacts were able to cause some disruption of the second phalanx, though not much. That battle eventually turned into a melee. I turned phalanx formation off after there were no spears left. I won but wound up with only 59 survivors out of 161 hoplites, but there were only 9 cataphracts left.
Interesting stuff this, Doug. Even with the double unit trick, the hoplites are not doing that well against the cats. Sounds like something needs to be done to strengthen spears/phalanx against cavalry - I hope CA listens when making the patch.
BTW, sounds like this thread should be in the research sub-forum.
Colovion
11-18-2004, 23:03
Oddly enough I did this same test a long time ago. I was having problems with Phalanxes and needed to figure out how the game wanted me to use them, not how they were used hiostorically.
In my tests I only tested on Cavalry. I found that teh Cav would charge into the Pikes and through/over when in a deep formation but very very rarely was the time when the horses would charge into the huge wide/skinny formation. It shocked me and is part of the many reasons why I haven't played for a while.
I tried a few battles with Germanic phalanges vs Cataphracts. In all instances, with ranks of 5,4,3 and 2 deep, the Cataphracts were routed. Even through the horses managed to punch through the lines everytime.
Against legionares the phalanges were defeated everytime. Again with each line depth played. As Doug mentioned the leftward shuffle becomes quite pronounced the thinner the line. So much so that left to their own devices the phalanx will shuffle away from the enemy to present their two man flank. Picture a mace with the phalanx as the handle and the legionares as the head. They get chewed up quite quickly at this point. These were all 1:1 battles so the flanks were easily attacked.
Doug-Thompson
11-19-2004, 03:58
I tried a few battles with Germanic phalanges vs Cataphracts. In all instances, with ranks of 5,4,3 and 2 deep, the Cataphracts were routed. Even through the horses managed to punch through the lines everytime.
No doubt, Ziu, but the German spear warband has 120 men (large unit size) to the Greek hoplite's 80, and an attack of 9, charge of 8 and a defense of 11.
More important, though is the fact that the German warbands stats can't drop to a weaker alternative weapon because they don't have a sword.
The hoplite's stats are 7-6-16 WHEN the hoplites DON'T lose order and drop their spears. With swords, the stats go down to 5-2-16.
Sid_Quibley
11-19-2004, 04:11
Cav jumping spears/pikes annoyed me so much I tried to fix it by editing out the charge_jump cas in the animations pak.
Due to my newb technical abillity havent succeeded,but Vercingetorix the master :bow: has.
A small file fix is availiable Here (http://www.totalwar.org/Downloads/Rtw_Uploads/RTWupload/)
pike_jumping_cav_fix
I tested it using 8 macedonian phalanx units from levy up against 12 gallic cav(cpu attack).In a single line at standard depth the phalanx all used spear except at the flanks where swords were used.They dealt with the cav very easily with only 1 unit sustaining significant losses.
Definitely worth downloading.
No doubt, Ziu, but the German spear warband has 120 men (large unit size) to the Greek hoplite's 80, and an attack of 9, charge of 8 and a defense of 11.
More important, though is the fact that the German warbands stats can't drop to a weaker alternative weapon because they don't have a sword.
The hoplite's stats are 7-6-16 WHEN the hoplites DON'T lose order and drop their spears. With swords, the stats go down to 5-2-16.
That's true. I just thought it might be interesting to compare with other phalanx units available in the game. Sorry if it was a irrelevant to the main thrust of the topic.
Doug-Thompson
11-19-2004, 05:45
Cav jumping spears/pikes annoyed me so much I tried to fix it by editing out the charge_jump cas in the animations pak.
Due to my newb technical abillity haven't succeeded, but Vercingetorix the master :bow: has.
I've played computer games since the 1980s. I have never, NEVER downloaded a "home remedy" from anyone.
Until tonight.
Tell Vercingetorix that the fix is fabulous. Cataphracts still beat Greek hoplites, but it took a long while -- quite long enough to have sent for reinforcements in a real battle -- while the Greeks were in a five-deep formation.
Sanity was restored -- the cataphracts blew right through the two-rank thin line like it was paper, routing the bunch in a few seconds.
Outstanding in every way. Highly recommended -- and I'm a die-hard Parthian cavalry guy.
Now if we can just find a solution for the infantry. (See Watchman quote below.)
=======
I've never seen the movie Pearl Harbor. I refused to go see it after watching the previews, which had Japanese planes at cropdusting altitude buzzing some lady in a field. There, I sneered, was a neat visual effect trumping all reason.
Same thing with flying cataphracts.
Doug-Thompson
11-19-2004, 05:48
That's true. I just thought it might be interesting to compare with other phalanx units available in the game. Sorry if it was a irrelevant to the main thrust of the topic.
Oops. My bad, Ziu. Yes, we should see how other units do. It's not irrelevant at all. Needs to be done. I got on the technical side and got tunnel vision. Recommend you download that "flying cataphract" fix mentioned above. The Germans will do even better.
Excellent thread! ~:cheers:
I was having trouble with that horse jumping/wraparound issue as well and always thought that more ranks would be better. D'oh!
Really like the discussion and there's also Vercingetorix's fix. Vote to get this stickied or at least indexed.
Brilliant threads - both this and the one in the monastery.
Quick question - Vercingetorix's fix, can this be applied mid-campaign? My Seleucid war machine has just pacified the east, and I'm about to take on the Romans, and wouldn't mind fixing my phalanges before I go. Not that the Roman's have much cavalry to worry about, of course.
Also, is there a list of all these little fixes and files anywhere? A menu, if you will.
Sid_Quibley
11-19-2004, 16:10
Quick question - Vercingetorix's fix, can this be applied mid-campaign?
Should work fine mid campaign as it doesnt alter any files relating to save game just negates the jump anim.
Interesting discussion, but just to return to Doug's original points about RTW gameplay is there any truth in RTW that cavalry does much more damage to your infantry if it is caught "on the run"? For example, if you try to deploy your infantry to a new location and formation by dragging the mouse, and the AI cav catches you before you finish, you seem to get butchered. This is true even if you are facing the cav and seems to be because deploying opens up small gaps between the men in your formation that the cavalry exploit. I've encountered it often, trying to maneouvre around the last AI cav in a city forum. If true, it's a nice feature. It seems to somewhat contradict Doug's point about thin lines - maybe it's just saying you need a close formation, not a deep one.
Doug-Thompson
11-21-2004, 04:26
... is there any truth in RTW that cavalry does much more damage to your infantry if it is caught "on the run"? For example, if you try to deploy your infantry to a new location and formation by dragging the mouse, and the AI cav catches you before you finish, you seem to get butchered.
This is definitely one of those things I've seen but can't offer proof or a test. I've seen infantry get truly clobbered just because it raised spears and was in the middle of changing facing, much less moving to a new location or changing its formation.
It seems to somewhat contradict Doug's point about thin lines - maybe it's just saying you need a close formation, not a deep one.
Not necessarily -- the infantry needs to be in position and formed up., thick or thin. However, it is true that a long, thin lines take longer to get completely in position than a short, thick one.
I don't play with spear units much, but I always turn phalanx off and click the run button when repositioning them, even if it's just a change of facing.
Mr Frost
11-22-2004, 12:45
...
The hoplite's stats are 7-6-16 WHEN the hoplites DON'T lose order and drop their spears. With swords, the stats go down to 5-2-16.
Not in my game they don't : I modded the Hoplite units to have the same sword skill as spear skill {except for the militia hoplites ; I only consider them to be using daggers and they are supposed to suck somewhat} .
Combined with Vercingetorix' fix they chew up frontal cavalry nicely and don't look so silly when their silly sidestep dance lets an enemy unit wrap their flank .
I think I'll leave the pike units sword skills alone though .
Hopefully it is not too late to contribute a few personal experiences after an entire Sunday of struggle. The following suggestions are based on vanilla patch 1.1, VH difficulty and Huge unit size.
A working phalanx, with their spear sticking out, is undestructable against regular, non-phalanx infantry, no matter how sharp their blades, and how naked and chest-hairless your men are. This is because the enemy soldiers can't even get close enough to you to start their attack animation, so there is no chance for your phalanx to get scratched.
Of course, things are not always so ideal, so you will lose a few men due to a "temporarily" disrupted formation. This can happen... of couse when you get flanked or backstabbed. There are some not so obvious circumstances, which you obviously want to avoid:
(1) Enemies' strong charge, head on.
Usually by cavalry, or some infantry that has a fast running speed and charging bonus. A powerful charge will rush into a phalanx formation, and suddenly all the phalanx spearmen decides to abandon their good spears and switch to tiny softy knives that can't touch anything.
Actually, every faction uses some cavalry, so it is very likely that some suicide generals will eventually rush and jump into a phalanx line, thus screwing up your phalanx formation entirely (because they all switch to that f* knife!). That's why people don't like to play phalanx on VH. Because of the +7 attack bonus the enemy has, your formation gets disrupted very often, and so your men all prefer their tiny softy knives. You will end up losing more men than the enemy.
That's also why people complain about Germany spear warband. (or admire, depending on whether you speak German I guess ~D) These spearmen don't carry a little knife, so they are forced to stick with their spears even if someone rushed into their lines. This disadvantage actually makes them THE MOST USEFUL phalanx in the RTW world, because they always maintain their phalanx formation. Keeping their spears maintain their bonus against charged-in cavalries, holding the majority of them at a distance. At the same time, the rear guys get rid of the disruptors quickly and resume the great spear wall. If you are frustrated with regular phalanx and want to see what kind of damage they are supposed to deliver, definitely give these spear warbands a try. If you don't laugh in your sleep, I guarantee you still laugh in front of your monitor.
So for regular phalanx that does carry a little knife, there is no way to avoid enemy cavalry charging into your line and distrupt your formation. All you can do is make sure your better phalanx are used against these charges, and make your poorer phalanx against poorer infantry.
The other source of disruption is, shamefully:
(2) Our own fault.
Phalanx requires a few extra care to manuever. I have failed it so many times that I learned a few tips:
2a. Don't order a phalanx to attack an enemy. Just tell them to walk to a distant line behind the enemy line.
Most of the time they will deform their lines when hearing the attack command, and some stupid soldiers will go ahead, while others dropped behind. Even worse is the "double right click" charge. You don't need the charge attack bonus at all - because the enemy can't touch you when you have your phalanx formation intact.
You can group your phalanx, so you can order the entire line walk together at the same time.
2b. Order your soldiers to stop walking when other units are engaged.
This way you keep your entire wall as one single line. The AI is sometimes smart enough to detect a gap in your wall, and assign some units to flank from there.
Don't worry about the engaged unit, as long as they keep the formation, they are safe. If their formation is gone and you can see close-distance combat, they will be dead before your other phalanx turns 90 degrees trying to flank.
2c. Order your soldiers to stop and continue walking when the engaged unit rout.
You don't want to chase the routers because you can't catch them, and you don't want your line disrupted when there are other non-routing enemy units nearby. The AI will sense where weakness is, and preferably attack the non-functioning phalanx.
Guard mode doesn't help at all. One time I had my phalanx on guard mode, and after routing the enemy, they gladly decided to rotate 180 degrees to show their arses to the 2nd wave of charge.
When I stick to these 3 simple rules my Germania spearwarband are simply invincible on the battlefield. Never did I see any unit like this in VH. Well, difficulty doesn't really matter because they enemy has no chance to start swinging! ~D
Note: A thing line of phalanx work very well. 3 ranks is all you need against regular infantry. They also extend your wall longer so the enemy is less likely to get any chance to flank you. While against cavalry you will need more ranks. Or you don't need more ranks, because all your men will use knives even if it is 100 ranks! :furious3:
In phalanx battle, head on; you'll find that levy pikes can actually win, due to longer spears. They can also beat Spartans somehow as well...
HopAlongBunny
12-21-2004, 17:23
This may have been posted somewhere else before, but how many of you "double-up" the phalanx?
During some bridge battles (and to a lesser extent in open battles) I have seen phalanx's completely run through by a cavalry charge. The unit becomes disorganized and while it may kill the "breaking" unit, the follow on units destroy the phalanx.
To get around this I layer one phalanx on top of another; usually dragging the second into formation so the overlap begins at the second rank. It seems that no matter how "vanilla" the phalanx is this formation will never break...even against successive waves of chariots/cav.
Yes. During my current Greek campaign I always double up my thin-rank phalanx. The first layer is better phalanx, while behind them is poorer militia hoplite.
The reason is the tedious tendency of soldiers trying to switch to the little knife as soon as enemy intrudes their rank. Cavalry charge will certainly go through the first player, but they will get stopped at the second.
Phalanx 1 vs. 1
The other day I had a fun experience with phalanx - a militia hoplite duel (Greek vs. Rebel), huge unit size, VH.
Since the difficulty was VH I thought I was going to lose for sure, but just for fun I gave it a try. I set my formation 3-rank deep, instead of 5-rank deep used by AI. I approached the AI phalanx with an angle closing up from the right, meaning my right section will engage the AI's left section first, while some of my guys will be poking their left flank including their captain. I also stationed my men at a slightly higher ground.
My pikes had a slightly faster kill rate, about a 10-men difference.
Their captain was poked to the ground a few times, but he managed to stay up right afterwards. I never knew pikes do that. The AI captain along killed a lot of my soldiers.
My men also shifts to the left for some reason, so finally my exteded right is totally gone. But suddenly the enemy started to rout (probably due to their morale reached a threshold), and a lot of soldiers drop dead instantly. I won the battle with 90 left.
Spears, short phalanx spears, and long phalanx spears/pikes, should all get considerable rank bonuses for depth. I am NOT saying they do. However they should. Part should be defense, part offense, part morale, and part push back. Defense should run deeper than offense, while push back and morale run deeper still.
Do you know what pushback does? In MTW, it gives 300% increase of chance to kill on the next combat cycle. I remember long threads during MTW v1.0 where people argued that swords should be better vs spears, and that cav should be better vs spears. CA made those changes in MTW v1.1 by giving swords a 40% better attack vs spears and giving cav a chance to pushback a spear. The cav knights were also made 25% cheaper and the spears 15% more expensive. The result was that spears disappeared from MP.
It seems to me the rank bonus has been removed because the engine is now 3D, and if there is a spear point hitting an enemy man it is included in the combat. This wouldn't be the case with 2D sprites where the man had to come in contact with the enemy in order to fight. I wonder if the phalanx is having trouble because too much frontal penetration is being allowed?
Another tidbit:
If you find a phalanx unit switching to swords to fight (usually a bad thing), and want them to go back to swords, hit "Halt" a few times. Often they'll reform a pseudo-phalanx (in some random direction), and kill a bunch of the attackers in the process. Very devastating when it works. Obviously this won't work when fighting atop a wall.
Another trick I've used is when the phalanx is fighting, but they are pointing the spears the wrong way, I'll order a rotation to get them to face the way I want them to. Very useful when a phalanx unit is intercepted going through a wall breach before they have time to reform. The unit will usually get a bunch of the spears pointing the right way. If the unit draws swords, try the "Halt" trick mentioned above to get them back into spear-mode.
Warspite
12-23-2004, 00:15
As I understand it, the tendency to drift to the right was inherent to the phalanx, as some men involved attempted to squeeze themselves further under the protection of the shield of the man to the right of them, which resulted in the man to his left having to move right to stay under the original man's shield, and hence a chain reaction on down the line. As a result, the entire formation would often shift to the right (I know the phenomenon was touched on in the course of either Stephen Pressfield's "Gates of Fire" or "Tides of War"--unfortunately, I don't recall which right off hand).
This wasn't a good quality, however, and the tendency was drilled out of more experienced and disciplined troops. Has anybody tested to see if there's a correlation between the amount of right-shifting and the level of unit experience? If green troops shift to the right a great deal while seasoned troops are far more stable, this might actually be a rather clever depiction of a very real quirk inherent to the phalanx.
--Warspite
Woreczko
12-23-2004, 23:41
Hi
I have a question for you, phalanx experts :)
Did you try to experiment with short_spear hoplites (The ones, with only 2 ranks fighting)? I` ve just discovered this attribute and thought, that it could represent classical hoplites a bit better, as they did not have especially long spears (~2m IIRC).
nice thread,
i've read 'alexander the great' by an itailan scientist and the book claimed that the phalanx units had different spear sizes so they could form a solid wall of spears to the enemy. is this do-able for rtw, to amke spear sizes differnet per unit?
also, in the alexander book, the macedonians had an elite foot-soldier, the schild-dragers( dutch) wich is free-translated for shield-barer, they had a large shield and a sword.
alexanders elite unit in wich he rode, called 'the point' ( another free translation) the were cav. and had two throwing spear, a shield and a lance for h2h combat.
if this were to be duable for an rtw mod, please let me know.
and a noob-question: how do you put units in deep formation?
PS: someone posted that deep-formed phalanxes had a lot of pushing power,
assuming this is true, then why is a phalanx alsways in defence when you start a battle? did anybody find an explenation for why they made it like that?
it couldn't have been an accident
Heh... Finally found something to prove the Macedonain hoplite was indeed there. I knew I had read about them somewhere, this isn't it but it merely substantiates my point.
Macedonian hoplite marching with Lakedaimonian and Cretan (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=311973)
This is from Osprey's "Warriors of Ancient Greece. They don't dabble in total speculation and normally back up their images with archeological, written or pictorial evidence. So in this case we might say that he didn't look like that, or that he wasn't there (with the Spartan and Cretan), but he existed, that much I'm sure of.
By the way, there are quite a few more scans here. You might find them interesting CBR. Lots of Osprey scans. (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=6617&st=180)
If you are climbing up an opposed incline where you occationally need to put down one hand to steady yourself, it becomes rather apparent that pulling along a pike is not optimal. A spear on the other hand is rather more nimble and you can even use it as a walkingstick (not fully but you can use the buttspike more readily than that of the pike). Of course they could have dropped their main weapon entirely, but I don't think so for two reasons. It is not mentioned that they did that (or were even armed different than normal) and since the enemy carried spears it would give them the edge in combat.
Issus was not won by means of infantry, but their role was important anyway. They needed to keep the Persian infantry occupied while Alexander and his Companions rolled up the Persian flank. In broard terms much the same as Gaugamela (but there are a lot of subtle differences, such as the echelon lineup of the Macdonians).
Cav jumping spears/pikes annoyed me so much I tried to fix it by editing out the charge_jump cas in the animations pak.
Due to my newb technical abillity havent succeeded,but Vercingetorix the master :bow: has.
A small file fix is availiable Here (http://www.totalwar.org/Downloads/Rtw_Uploads/RTWupload/)
pike_jumping_cav_fix
I tested it using 8 macedonian phalanx units from levy up against 12 gallic cav(cpu attack).In a single line at standard depth the phalanx all used spear except at the flanks where swords were used.They dealt with the cav very easily with only 1 unit sustaining significant losses.
Definitely worth downloading.
Ive been suffering from my flax totally failing to stop a cav charge for ages and this fix sounds wonderfull but the link seems out of date is there anyway I can get my hands on it?
Thanx in advance
Simetrical
01-14-2005, 21:15
Up-to-date link (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=45&t=19041)
-Simetrical
hi again,
is phalanx drift specially programmed by CA or did is it a ( historically accuarte) bug?
in both cases, its needs to be rmoved/fixed. the drift wasn't so much and it decreases gameplay a lot.
It seems to be deliberate feature and not a bug, but I have not noticed any devs talking about this, so I can't know for sure. And it is most certainly not historically accurate.
There was a drift, but it was significantly less, didn't seem to depend on depth, only affected hoplites and only happened during the march to battle and never in melee (which has been elaborated on quite few times already in this thread).
Someone Stupid
03-09-2005, 00:23
No delete button?
About phalanx pushing and changing unit mass since it still is about what is covered to some degree in this thread, here's the link to the one it should have wen into in the first place.
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=713343&postcount=68
Someone Stupid
03-09-2005, 00:33
For the problem of hoplites, pikemen, etc. not being able to push through a line, I've found that raising the unit's mass helps (ran 6 trials) just now - V1.2. Spartan vs. Hastati. I wanted a unit that could kill quick on offense along with one that would stand it's ground on defence to take less time. It isn't much of an increase when you first make contact (you'll shove the first two lines into one which makes them die rather quick) and it gives it enough to punch completely through a line. You may have to click attack a couple times during that units battle as once you get severely flanked (since a Hastati line is slightly wider, it will happen), they stop for some reason. While a good deal of the "push" comes from dead soldiers, once you break down an enemy formation into about two lines (Hastati being the tested enemy), you can see the Spartans pushing the formation (minus the flanks of it) back at spear point dramatically - I pushed completely through to the point that I had hastati approx. several ranks behind me - still in gaurd mode. Those that aren't in the front of the line will wind up flanking you without even moving.
Mass 1.3: Only the last line will show any real movement from being pushed, but there is some going on (Spartans). No real pushing at all (mass 1) (Militia Hoplites)
Mass 1.99: The last three lines show movement (BARELY), at two it is somewhat noticeable, and by the time you get down to the last line (intact that is), you'll have driven completely through the ranks and you'll have the last line pushed back several lines from it's start, and being pushed back considerably further. (Spartans). Seems a tad better, not much though (Militia Hoplites).
I had thought the mass variable only effected how calavry charges are absorbed - but going by the admittedly few runs I've made in testing, it doesn't seem to be the case. I'd have to run more trials (or someone else would) before I'd decide to stand behind this as fact. Six runs isn't a large sample size admittedly and I could have been getting some happy math in my favor during this.
EDIT: It appears there MIGHT be some correllation - just that all it takes is one to bring the whole line to a stop making testing this a pain. One Hastati past the initial spears stops everything - gaurd mode will prevent this though. Also tried with Militia Hoplites - they didn't really push worth a squat regardless of the setting, and by the time they did, they lost so many that they would route 2-3 lines in at half strength. 4 trials were done with militia hoplites each at 1 and 1.99 mass. Anytime I got penetration with them, they started dying VERY quickly and would route 2-3 lines in.
In the end, I can't truly say if it works or not.
so hwo is guard mode affecting the push?
Someone Stupid
03-10-2005, 00:19
so hwo is guard mode affecting the push?
Gaurd will keep them stabbing a bit longer, sometimes all the way through. It will at least kill more of them before the AI tells them to spread out (like they are taking arrow fire) even if you have a unit which won't make it through. After they spread out, if your using a low morale pike unit, your going to route quickly if the target isn't mostly dead, gaurd mode or not. Base 4-6 morale units don't take to being flanked very well - and pushing through gets you flanked even with a single unit vs. another thanks to how dense a phalnx needs to be to be effective. Do a custom battle with militia hoplites vs. Hastati. You'll get routed nearly every time, but at least with gaurd mode on, you'll have a chance to kill more of them with a lot less supervision. Then try it with any decent unit (8 morale or so). I've played with it a bit more and I really can't discern any effect from raising the mass thanks to an AI bug making timing this impossible wihtout a lot of added runs and patience (I don't have the time or patience). Any unit that falls over then stands up in the pike mass behind the first row of pikes will not be pushed and seemingly doesn't take damage until attack is reclicked or one waits about 5 seconds (sometimes longer). Once that unit in the pikes does anything - it generally will die. That tells me the AI isn't immediately updating or has some built in delay when dealing with individual soldiers. With gaurd mode on, all the pikes will keep stabbing, although quite quickly, nobody will be in range except the stuck unit as they'll die. Without gaurd mode, they'll generally stop stabbing ecept for those pikes around the person standing up in the mass of them. The attacks don't do damage until you click to attack or wait for the AI to resolve the issue itself, but the animation is there. The whole problem with that unit standing up is that he doesn't get pushed at all until he does something. That takes a bit for that to happen due to AI behavior.
In short if you want pikes to push, it seems the best way of doing it is just to up their attack. If you don't want them to absolutely maul calvary (since they have a bonus or should), adding a negative bonus against calvary would offset that. They'll then just be a bit better at killing troops and as effective as normal against calvary. If you leave the sec stat the same as it normally is, it wouldn't effect flanking and the damage recieved after they drop their pikes from being flanked. Damage matters a lot more than mass. Higher damage means less of a chance of someone "waking up" between the pikes. Rarely happens with Spartans, happens often with Militia Hoplites (even if given the same stats for all but attack - so it is an issue with damage).
Red Harvest
03-10-2005, 01:06
If you want pikes to push, you need to increase their mass. Mass = push. Unfortunately, in my attempts to test formation depth, I never found depth directly influencing the push. Kill rate does, but it is not push, it is actually allowing displacement through attrition of the enemy. The last thing the game needs is higher kill rates. Formation type and depth does not seem to determine push. That is why the 1.3 and 1.5 mass units can push 1.0 mass phalanx units back. It is also how cavalry pushes them back. Unfortunately, you can only reduce the ratio with cav, rather than reverse it. However, if you want to make phalanx/hoplite units behave somewhat more realistically use the masses like: militia hops/levy pikes = 1.3 phalanx pike/standard hoplites = 1.6, elites all at 1.8. The one negative is that this carries over into secondary attack, but considering the disadvantages of the phalanx at the moment, it is just compensation.
Guard mode results in phalangites/hoplites losing more rapidly in most tests I have run and most tests that others have reported. The only use I can find for it is in keeping the unit from pursuing a unit that is routing or to try to reduce formation shift. I doubt that guard mode will result in much push even with higher mass, but I haven't tested it much because guard mode loses.
Don't use VH for push tests, the kill rates are much too high. Medium is better. If anything, try reducing the lethality entry of the test units (rather than attack), so that you can distinguish better between kills and pushes.
Someone Stupid
03-10-2005, 02:23
I really didn't think much of the difficulty at the time. I don't intend on testing again since it appears mass does help. I only ran the test as some were wondering how to get them to push. I figured mass would help. Was hard to tell how I was testing (mainly difficulty). Also the random stopping of the majority of the line attacking or the fallen soldier deal made me decide it wasn't worth figuring this out anymore than I had.
As for raising the push on Militia and Levy, I wouldn't do that - esp for Militia Hoplites as it would cripple the AI immensely since it would only help them get flanked and when they get flanked they route quickly because of their whoopping 4 moral and next to no armor. Anytime you'd get into a battle and the unit doesn't have flanking protection it's gonna route a lot quicker. Most of the time the AI does get sloppy with it's units as it likes to match counter unit to counter unit more so than the unit in the best position to offset the attack. I can't count the times I've seen pikemen go clear across the battlefield in response to me sending an advanced calvary unit to a side to flank when it wouldh ave been better suited to leaving that unit there and responding with a couple less capable cav counters that would have been attacked by the flanking unit anyhow - just they don't let it get behind them.
Still, the openness of the code for much of the game is something I don't think many appreciate when talking about bugs and such. A lot of minor things can be readily addressed that normally you'd need a patch to fix. Though seeing what is wrong in "code" often makes it more obvious thus more will mention it. At least CA is releasing decent patches. I remember the last games I bought that was somewhat open (Alpha Centauri), I remember actual programmers and the lead of QA (Jeff Morris, Firaxis) even saying that it was our problem, so deal with it. A bug was either non-existant, our fault, or not an issue and we should try to work around it in how we play the game. I remember there was quite a huge group that sent in repeatable problems and they said they couldn't get it to repeat when we could on each others machines. If it was one of the few things which was .txt editable, they'd tell us to fix it. After 4 or 5 patches, it still had issues which the first patch said it fixed, completely broken. That's why I now refuse to buy any product that comes out of Firaxis or BigHugeGames (some dev staff from Firaxis went there). Also MS is known to have held back patches - I remember with AoE 2 there were many bugs which the staff said they had fixed but couldn't release a patch for because MS was against patches at the time (wanted to release only a couple large ones and even then, only after beening pressed on it for a LONG time). MS probably has changed that policy, not to mention they actual seem to provide decent QA for most their releases compared to EA and the like. I mention these only because I did just harp a bit about some rather idiotic bugs and have seen others complain about CA's patches. IMO CA has done fairly well in regards to fixes given the scope of the game and how others handle it. Also they could be hamstrung by the publisher - deals don't just include the game, but also can include who has the rights in regards to patches (and thus publishing them). There is only so much that is easily identifiable and cost effective to fix - CA probably has gotten most of those out the way. Though I'd think the siege reset would be an easy one to fix - then again, I can't look at the entire backend to say. I don't demand a bug free game if it is complex as RTW, though I'd like the bugs minimized - and that is what they've done - even the first release didn't have anything the was truly gamebreaking or truly annoying in my book. Now if I'm playing an FPS, I expect no bugs as there aren't nearly as many AI calculations going on - at least those that are going on are more apparent as to their results. Complexity determines what I expect and CA didn't disapoint.
I started a selucid campaign last night, and it was mainly my first time using phalanx(never bother with merc units b4, too slow for my taste).
I admit these units take patience. I tried advice from here and some things work, albeit since I only had poor morale units, its hard to see if its the unit itself or the programming sometimes.
I have witnessed cavalry charges get stopped but others push there way thru, I have seen my troops use use their spears to punch their way forward, but most of the time any success I have is because I babysit those suckers like crazy. Its bad enough I have crazy Selucid cavalry that HAS to run thru my foots formation when told to stop before hand, but activating/reactivating phalanx,guard mode, is almost making me find a non pike faction to try. But on the plus side I do love watching a phalanx engine goto work when it works right.
I did notice one thing tho, it seems if they get caught off phalanx mode they do try to correct, and it was cool watching my troops try to force some space ahead of them with the swords and if they got the room the pikes would come out. I had a battle last night with 1 column using their pikes and the other 7 still trying to make room with swords. Bad thing is, with another phalanx unit to fight this is costly.
yes it was, but they used a trowing spear
they were climbers right? oh btw, it capitAl
Craterus
03-20-2005, 18:28
~:cool: alexanders agrinian troops were from mountain ranges and they were very experienced mountain climbers that did indeed use throwing spears..
(i know a bit about alexander the great) ~:cool: ~D ~:cool: ~D
with how much where they in alexanders army?
therother
03-23-2005, 18:52
This thread is a pruned merging of frogbeastegg's Step two three, shuffle two three, dance two three : the big phalanx question (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=38342), and Doug-Thompson's A thin line of spears (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=39916). Click the appropriate links to see the originals.
This may seem a little controversial to some, but I reckon phalanx units really ruin the challenge of the siege and city aspects of this game. It's almost impossible to lose a city to the AI when you're defending it with phalanx units. Simply align them in the city plaza at strategic choke points and wait for the AI to launch itself on the units in whatever random and inane order it chooses. I will sometimes lose as little as 1000 when defending cities with phalanx units. I'm not even talking about the top phalanxes either, simply militia hoplites or levy pikemen will do.
Granted, this is as much to do with the strategy the AI employs for city assaults as it is for the power of a phalanx in tight choke spots. The AI fails to use archers properly once inside the city - instead of firing on stationary units like phalanxes, it will use all archers and skirmishers in melee to get to the city plaza.. In fact, as soon as a city wall is breached or once inside a city, all AI units do is charge in an ill-thought-out manner to the city plaza.
The trouble is, trying to find a suitable solution to keeping the game challenging when using a nation with phalanx units? In the field I'm aware phalanx units are far more susceptible and major nerfing will impact on this part too much. Does anyone have any ideas?
So far, what I've decided to do is try reducing the "mass" of phalanx units a little (by 0.2), so that in city fights there will be a greater chance that a massed mob of attackers can disrupt their formations a little more.
Epistolary Richard
03-29-2005, 13:58
Granted, this is as much to do with the strategy the AI employs for city assaults as it is for the power of a phalanx in tight choke spots. The AI fails to use archers properly once inside the city - instead of firing on stationary units like phalanxes, it will use all archers and skirmishers in melee to get to the city plaza.. In fact, as soon as a city wall is breached or once inside a city, all AI units do is charge in an ill-thought-out manner to the city plaza.
I don't think there's anyway to stop the AI from charging headlong forwards with all their troops if it's written into their siege AI. You could however, try them out using their normal battle AI and see if it has anything other than catastrophic effects.
I think this could be done by doing the following. Create a normal battle in the battle editor and put a settlement into it. Mark the settlement as ambient so the AI won't think it's fighting a siege battle and the other siege special rules won't apply. Redefine the starting positions to match that of a normal siege battle and put some troops in there and see what happens.
EDIT: Okay, I did and the AI couldn't handle it. It just stood outside and tried to demolish the town with its onagers and, when they ran out of ammunition, they just stood there. Even when I was taunting them by nipping in and out of the gaping holes in my walls.
Firstly, sorry - I haven't read through the whole thread, so this might have been mentioned.
Whilst looking for something else, I found this in the pre-patch readme:
Unit Linking
The Rome: Total War manual contains a reference to the unit linking functionality that has been removed from the 3D battle user interface. On page 53 the description of the AI assistance button states "This button replaces the linking button when a group is selected." This linking button has been removed from the game.
So it looks like it might have been originally planned to have an ability to link units into one long line.
MajorFreak
04-21-2005, 16:12
uhm...okay, let's try to keep this on topic. lol.
SpawnOfEbil
07-11-2005, 09:30
I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before, but I've found out how to get a single unbroken phalanx line on vanilla RTW.
Edit the data_formation file, find the single line entry, and change the unit spacing from 2.0 to 0.0.
Hey presto, a perfect phalanx line.
pezhetairoi
07-22-2005, 01:41
yeah this is very useful, but be careful when redrawing a new line, watch the unit shadows very carefully to see that there are no gaps. At certain lengths the arithmetic doesn't add up so men don't cover the gaps.
Also, my two cents' worth on phalanx advances--this is definitely not without loss, and may have been repeated before, but I find that as you order the phalanx to move behind the enemy line, they will eventually close to within attacking range, upon which you just hammer backspace to stop them. Phalanxes, once engaged, are best not given new orders (since they will lift up their spears etc) but this works well in siege battles when my phalanxes are in the process of entering the city, and are in jumbled formation. Just pressing halt when they are on phalanx mode halfway into the city will mean they will immediately present pikes as approximately forward as they can and get into formation at the same time.
As to attacking, whether siege or not, it seems in my experience that as long as you order them to attack with a doubleclick as said earlier in the thread, they will attack, but sometimes they walk right into the enemy, so for good measure, press backspace once they join combat to stop them from moving any further.
How I wish CA had a 'sound the general advance' option. Then the phalanx could really steamroller the enemy, one step forward at a time while pushing them back.
This may seem a little controversial to some, but I reckon phalanx units really ruin the challenge of the siege and city aspects of this game. It's almost impossible to lose a city to the AI when you're defending it with phalanx units. Simply align them in the city plaza at strategic choke points and wait for the AI to launch itself on the units in whatever random and inane order it chooses. I will sometimes lose as little as <10 soldiers and kill >1000 when defending cities with phalanx units. I'm not even talking about the top phalanxes either, simply militia hoplites or levy pikemen will do.
Granted, this is as much to do with the strategy the AI employs for city assaults as it is for the power of a phalanx in tight choke spots. The AI fails to use archers properly once inside the city - instead of firing on stationary units like phalanxes, it will use all archers and skirmishers in melee to get to the city plaza.. In fact, as soon as a city wall is breached or once inside a city, all AI units do is charge in an ill-thought-out manner to the city plaza.
The trouble is, trying to find a suitable solution to keeping the game challenging when using a nation with phalanx units? In the field I'm aware phalanx units are far more susceptible and major nerfing will impact on this part too much. Does anyone have any ideas?
So far, what I've decided to do is try reducing the "mass" of phalanx units a little (by 0.2), so that in city fights there will be a greater chance that a massed mob of attackers can disrupt their formations a little more.
I'm using Mordred's mod where all non-spear units are reduced to 0.75 lethality, all units get a +1 to their defensive value and a +4 to their morale, movement speed is set at 0.9. This works well in the field battles. The AI's single minded selection of "best individual matchup" works better because there is more time during the fighting for those matchups to play out. Its cav flanking moves make contact with better timing as well. Although, that tactic of chasing cav with infantry didn't work well in the battle where an AI 1000 man infantry army chased my 3 units of cav all over the battlefield and I was able to inflict 800 casualties before loosing. The AI did win the battle and some of the casualties healed.
In city battles with this mod, it is easy to defend by blocking city streets with phalanx units. If you look at the layout of a typical city, there are very few streets leading to the central plaza. For cities without walls with large enough plazas, you could defend on the central plaza itself so that the option of blocking choke points is not available to you. I didn't actually have the courage to do this in my Carthaginian campaign since I didn't know if I could hold cities that way. For cities with walls, I simply sally right away when sieged thereby turning it into a field battle. This also means I have to maintain decent sized garrisons which slows down my economic expansion, and I only train or retrain one unit per turn per city. So far this has worked to make the strategic game more interesting, and the battles are already more interesting with the mod. I keep phalanx units in guard mode all the time. I would have no chance against the Roman's better armies without plenty of sacred band infantry holding the line. I suffered 2:1 casualties overall when I took on SPQR, and lost about 40 sarcred band infantry units in the 12 years it took me to defeat them. The Carthaginian campaign I'm playing is still interesting at 134 BC where I've managed to control 24 provinces and the next 26 are not going to be that easy to get. Since I got to this point with only 2 saves, the AI factions have not been overrun with rebel provinces since they always move to recapture any that revolt.
Silver Rusher
07-26-2005, 21:34
I have read back here and have seen that there are quite a few people who actually think it is a good idea to pull your units out of phalanx, then move them in and put it back. While it looks good on paper, this is actually a really bad tactic. It works against infantry armies, but no...
I am currently playing through a campaign on Mundus Magnus, a mod which dramatically improves the campaign map and a few other things (if you still play vanilla RTW, I recommend you get it now), as the Parthians. The Seleucids are my biggest enemies, but I can easily crush their armies because of this tactic. Until I get catanks, I am using armies composed entirely of Horse Archers, Scythian Mercs or Persian Cav.
This sounds like a weak combination as there are no troops to support the missiles, but trust me, it works. To kill the Seleucids, whose armies at this stage usually compose of 70%+ phalanx units, I can simply ride over, pump their phalanxes full of arrows and wait until they get pissed off and lift their sarissas. Then, I charge straight at them causing an almost instant rout to them.
Out of the countless battles I have fought with the Seleucids, I can only remember actually losing 1 of them. I know from experience, phalanx units are pathetically weak when they aren't in that formation, so always keep those pikes ready. I think the time I did lose was because my horse archers ran out of arrows and charged into a phalanx out of impetuousity.
To summarise, when fighting eastern armies with phalanx armies, don't dare take them out of formation. The phalanx requires patience (which is why I hate using it lol) to be used successfully.
And no, lowering the sarissas in the middle of a melee does NOT work. Trust me, I know from plenty of Seleucid arse-whooping experience.
A.Saturnus
07-27-2005, 15:16
Generally, the behaviour of the AI isn`t a very good cue how to do something. Whether lifting the sarissa can work has to be found out in multiplayer.
My campaign battles have played well with the 0.75 lethality to non-spears because I control the phalanx and don't take them out of phalanx formation, and the AI factions I've gone up against don't have phalanx units. Breaking up its battleline and lifting the pikes means the AI can't use the phalanx unit effectively.
Multiplayers repeatedly hit the "form phalanx" button because it forces the the men in the unit to switch from their sword back to their pikes momentarily.
Legerdemain
09-05-2005, 21:16
After a few games in multiplayer as Armenia against Roman armies (not to mention a few embarassing defeats), I did a little bit of testing on my own, with one unit of first Heavy Spearmen, and then Pontic Bronze Shields against against a single Legionnary Cohort, as an experiment to see how much time one would have to get cavalry into flanking positions.
I'm about to reiterate a lot of what's already been said, so if that bothers you you can stop reading here. :P
Anyway, I tested the spearmen twice, once in four ranks and once in two, and both times they lost badly. The first time, in four ranks, the legionnaires wrapped around the sides and routed the spearmen, and the second time they smashed through the middle of the formation and routed the spearmen.
The Bronze Shields (pikemen) did better, mainly because they're a 120-man unit on Large, against the cohort's 80. The cohort didn't wrap around until much later, and thereby nearly lost--the numbers were 27-29 in their favor at the end. The primary difference was that it took the cohort a good couple of minutes longer to break through the pike unit. In the interests of curiosity, I had six cohorts attack five units of pikemen and a unit of Cappadocian Cavalry, and in the end managed to win with surprisingly few losses.
I drew a few conclusions from this.
1. Footmen shouldn't spread out so much when they attack. Or maybe they should. All I know is that this is mostly why phalanxes lose.
2. Pikemen (and longer spears) and larger units (and larger frontages) are infinitely better at holding back good infantry.
3. It's too easy to break a phalanx formation--against the Heavy Spearmen, the cohort managed to get a good number of the spears put away during their initial charge. The pikemen fared marginally better.
4. In multiplayer, big units are practically necessary to hold off well-trained troops.
All tests were conducted with guard mode off.
Mezmerizer
01-30-2006, 05:40
Alright, I read this post to about page one, and became disturbed because I personally believe the phalanx is one of the most impressive units in the game, with the exception of one error i always get, which is while the phalanx is in combat, having random idiots walk away from the phalanx itself. IDK *** u guys mean by drifting, it seems to me that the best way to attack is in guard mode, right cliked once, once they make contact (combat symbol) you observer the enemy's counter... rushing to charge, or standing still, if they rush you, you remain in guard mode, if they stand still you turn off guard mode, and the phalanx moves steadily to defeat the enemy. I even have a video to show you fools my hoplites pwning phalanx pikemen, in a long bloody confrontation where i used guard mode/ non guard mode to it's advantage.
http://files.filefront.com/phalanxvsphalanxwmv/;4687107;;/fileinfo.html
Watch this, tell me what you think, what i saw is the hoplites constantly adjusting itself to counter the pikemens sarissas. I at first was off guard mode, to close quick because of the sarissas longer length, eventually creating a gap and a rout on very hard difficulty. Playing as the greeks mostly, (although i edited them so i could use companion cavalry [greek cavalry ****]) Having spartan and armored fight as heavy infantry or a phalanx is fine enough for me, while they aren't as good as legions in hand to hand, it pins them down while u can run another hoplite unit to the flank, form a phalanx, flip off that guard mode, and turn on the meat grinder. Please give me your imput on this video and whether or not it's the problem you guys are having, because i have ALOT of experience with hoppys/phalanxs as it's all i play with...lol
Moderator note: edited for language.
Mezmerizer
02-14-2006, 10:34
or no-one will answer .... :embarassed:
or no-one will answer .... :embarassed:
I cannot play the file here, but phalanx drift means entire units moving to the right (as opposed to forward) when the enemy was just outside spear range. The problem was solved with the 1.2 patch. I guess that is why none answered.
gardibolt
02-21-2006, 22:58
Not sure if this is the same thing, but in 1.5 I will get a situation where one of the members of the phalanx dawdles picking his nose or something, and then he's chasing after the rest of the unit as they move forward. Very strange and kind of comical.
Eternal Sparta
03-17-2006, 23:22
wutd u expect to happen, any troops will get slaughtered if urban cohort takes phalanx on from front with cavalry auxilia charge on the flank
its a mismatch u cant compare 2 units vs 1
guineawolf
02-28-2007, 18:33
i have try,the phalanxe still can be defeated,if you got a high armoured unit like legion cohort.First click them to run straight to the behind of phalanxe unit(or click onto unit behind it),those legions will run straight to phalanxe and impact/charge into those spears wall,force those phalanxe unit to draw their sword,then it is time for to click(attack) onto that phalanxe unit,it will defeat that phalanxe unit easily,i try it when i play julii attempt to finish that campaign faster to unlock other factions.If the phalanxe troubling you,you can try this.:2thumbsup:
Suraknar
03-02-2007, 08:42
My experiences with the phalanx have been in the begining much frustration as some have expressed.
I can confirm also what most everyone said about phalanx being more agressive with Guard Mod OFF.
After numerous campaigns playing as Greek cities a combined approach is what I now employ.
The phalanxes purpose as used by Alexander was to pin the enemy while other troops did the flankinf, in the game the Greek cities dont really get those other troops for the flanking and I have come to the conclusion that this is the missing link.
It has been the same with almost all the games in the series except Shogun total war. But if historically a certain faction was defeated that faction usually lacks advanced stage Units or a complete aray of units to do the job as effectivelly as other factions.
In other words even if we can play one of these "historically defunct" factions, we are not given the means for a full campaign in order to stay "historically correct".
In MTW Byzantium lacked the stronger units of other Factions, just because in real history they did not have the opportunity to have them. So, lets say that we accept this historical precept, what to do in game when we are faced with the ahistorical situation? We have to find ways to bypass the designed lack of units, modding in the units is an approach but lets put modding on the side for now.
Phalanx, can be used in the same fashion as alexander did. You can line up your Hoplites or Pikemen and start advancing towards the enemy line, however you have to have some units that will take the role of actually killing and routing the enemy as the phalanx will not do so in the opening stages of the fight.
What I do is have 1 phalanx with guard OFF for every 3 phalanxes in Guard mode ON.
As the battle line advances you can pin the enemy and before the enemy start spilling to the flanks you flank that enemy with the phalanx that is not on Guard Mode.
The ones on Guard take much less casualties than if they were not on Guard, in retrospect they donot do as much damage, as many of you have observesd they seem to stand there. That is hwere the flanking phalanx comes in to play they are OFF guard mode and will kill, but are more vulnerable to attack however the enemy is fighting the phalanxes in Guard mode.
Throwing in another flanking unit of peltasts or heavy peltasts and you can insure victory, as the enemy routs you advance the comlete line of defensive phalanx and thus bit by bit you take the upper hand.
Now having cavalry or mercs such as thracian/bastarnae makes things much easyer with that system.
It touk me a while to get the hand of it, as it require preparation in the deployment phase, lots of clicks and mouse drags, yet it is successfull in game.
When you dont have an army with many phalanx units I do what everyone else has said here, take guand mode OFF and expect the higher casualties.
Protecting the Flanks is always key, and it requires timing.
Macedonians are an easyer faction to use this tatic due to their superior cavalry compared to the greek cities, with greek cities it is a bit more challenging and may require pausing the fight (something that I do not like to do actually) to give proper orders and get your bearings in larger engagements.
That is it on my part and the phalanx.
guineawolf
06-24-2007, 14:01
My experiences with the phalanx have been in the begining much frustration as some have expressed.
I can confirm also what most everyone said about phalanx being more agressive with Guard Mod OFF.
After numerous campaigns playing as Greek cities a combined approach is what I now employ.
The phalanxes purpose as used by Alexander was to pin the enemy while other troops did the flankinf, in the game the Greek cities dont really get those other troops for the flanking and I have come to the conclusion that this is the missing link.
That is it on my part and the phalanx.
but you can flexible changing your hoplites to swordmen by setting your phalanxe off,while phalanxe hoplites push forward to pin the enemy,those swords hoplites can do the flanking job,use armorued hoplites as swordmen if you want to lower your casualties.....
for me,i use them as swordsmen completely,since it still got bonus against cavalry even with phalanxes off,it just won't be that effective without spearswall to hold cavalry charge(will get high casualties as get charged by cavalry)!
Those phalanxe are very good to hold off some strong units for some time,that it will buy you some time to rout those weaker units.......
i even defeat those mighty legions with phalanxe pikemen swordsarm!!!:2thumbsup:
But heavy peltast will do better since it have no penalty against infantry(decrease 4 attack),you can use them as swordmen that do the flanking job!
From my multiplayer experience you can use phalanx as any ordinary troops, its all about skill with the mouse+keyboard, set up the design phalanx formation before you deploy, lets say the Hannibal´s Crescent Moon Tactic with the Sacred Band´s on reserve or flanks.
Start the battle, unlock phalanx formation and set your troops to move towords the enemy, surprising them for instance with the right mouse botton and pressing "R" for run, they will immediatley form up the Crescent Moon in 3/4 secs top "in his face".
Now on how to actually use the phalanxes, this is what i learned:
1st - Its all about gravity:
- If facing down - "guard mode off" since even your weaker troops will have an increased attack vs a decreased defense of the enemy of around 25% for each making an 50% damage/defense bonus, and while advancing the enemy will have a hard time mantaining formation and isolated units will apear most of the times for easy killing.
- If Facing up, "guard mode must be on" to pin the enemy down while trying to endure the enemy´s decend bonus and losing minimal formation and gaps...
- In plains:
- "Guard mode should be on" if enemy as pikes to avoid maximum contact and try out other tactics since pikes are most vulnerable to missile fire;
- "Guard mode should be off" on our flanks to try to encircle the enemy if your line is bigger, if line is smaller, then "guard mode on"
- "Mixed Line" - Often most efective against other phalanxes - just have a chess formation on the front line and have the rear phalanxes on guard mode off, after the inital first line pin ups, just advance the rear ones towards the diagonal of the fighting enemy unit - kinda like the roman legion manipular formation.
2nd - Always upgrade your defenses to at least 26 on elite phalanx like sacred bands (making it litteraly invulrable to missile fire"), 20ich on spartans, 30ichs on armoured hoplites and the rest go at least with silver shield/weapon upgrade and 1/2 chevrons experience, else they wont be much good.
3rd - mingle one or two phalanxes on the flanks with your cav and try to draw them into your spears, its not that hard to achieve and 2 phalanxes and a couple cavs will get rid of a lot of enemy cav.
4rd - The "Scape Goat" - use your best upgraded/experienced phalanx (not pikes, unless royal pikes because of the large hoplon) in a pushing forward manouver (not a suicidal one), just enough to draw the enemy archer fire, them you can advance the rest of the line, that elite unit will soffer few losses and the rest of your army wil probably stay untouched - its kinda basic but you´ll be surprised that it works most of the times
5th - The "Torpedo" - Get you phalanx into a collumm (this providing your flanks are covered) and insert an wedge into the enemy line, he will react trying to attack your flanks moving his phalanx forward, dont engange and let him come to you, during this process a gap opens in the front, and have your reserves go in and waste his backs one by one as the enemy line starts to crumble.
6Th - The "Swiss Cheese" - Set your phalanx line into a swiss cheese, whith small gaps on it and have your light/medium/hvy infantry form up in a pilar formation, when the enemy engages there will be a time the phalanxes will go in diagonals opening gaps between them because they are in "guard mode off" and yours are in "guard mode on", just move up the fresh troops and kill the enemy phalanxes one by one.
7th - Top 10 phalanx units by order:
1 - Spartans
2 - Sacred Band
3 - Armoured Hoplite
4 - Royal Pikeman
5 - Pharao´s Guards
6 - Pontus Bronze Shield (cheaper then silver shield)
7 - Silver Shield Pikeman
8 - Poeni Infantry
9 - Armenian Heavy Spearman
10- Pontus Phalanx Pikeman
Interesting tactics RickFGS, but this belongs more in the Colosseum.
hammer and nail, or anything Alexander used, which I forgot the name :p. 3 or 4 good morale Phalanxes draw fires and can hold their melee enemies (about 5-6 units) in chaotic mobs at bay, make enough times for ur calvary/killing units do their jobs.
Spear units w. shield wall can be a similiar uses but they made too small formation and tend to be surrounded quickly, even they lived and do not rout, they creat a gaps to let enemy reach ur ranged troops.
Does anyone know if the phalanx formation itself gives any defensive bonuses? I always thought it did but cant find any info on it
TruePraetorian
09-21-2007, 16:53
Iv'e seen it said before but i cannot remember where...i personally think that the best way to "fix" the phalanx is to change it comnpletley. I run my Rome in BI.exe (rtw with all the barbarian invasion fetures such as swimming). When i was researching on how to make a faction a horde, i saw a topic about the perfect phalanx. Simply change the formation in export_descr_units in the hoplites from phalanx to shieldwall. I then added in the longspear trait (can't rememeber if that's what it was called). It worked perfectly. The hoplites can charge(increasing attack) like they were able to when they were created in ancient times, they fight just like a phalanx but a little closer together which is fine because thats how close they should've been. They also still share the same defence as the phalanx but do to their close proximity they are extremely hard to break up with a frontal cavalry charge. Most importantly for examination of this thread, THEY DON'T DRIFTEver fought with hastati? yeah, they fight like that, no drifting, man to man, but they do not break apart and fight individuals outside the fight :inquisitive:
Hope i helped
hamilcarX
11-21-2007, 14:22
phalanx units, they seem powerfull against any cav, but the poor thing about greeks is that they do not have any good swordsmen or cavalry. CArthage has got good phalanx units (sacred band, poeni infantry) and good cavalry (sacred ban cav.) just let your phalanxes attack the front of the enemy whil the cav strikes the enemy in the rear and flanks, that is the best phalanx tactic. i think if you use masses of swordsmen ( like Iberien Infantry) you can easly beat off phalanx units, make sure you bring enough WORTHY skirmishers/peltasts/velites with you. rhodian and balearic slingers would do it too. just let your javelineers/slingers throw their sticks to lightly decimate the enemy army, while they try any attemps to reform the line in confusion, try to attack them with cavalry in the rear, and cheap but worthy swordsmen ( Iberian Infantry) attack them in the front, enemy cant put their spears down, is trapped and get killed until the last man.
Impressive investigation you'v egot there! How do you find this stuff out anyway?
Flying Pig
03-12-2008, 20:34
I march in with swords drawn then at the last minute form a phalanx up - it can work
i think if you use masses of swordsmen ( like Iberien Infantry) you can easly beat off phalanx units, make sure you bring enough WORTHY skirmishers/peltasts/velites with you. rhodian and balearic slingers would do it too. just let your javelineers/slingers throw their sticks to lightly decimate the enemy army, while they try any attemps to reform the line in confusion, try to attack them with cavalry in the rear, and cheap but worthy swordsmen ( Iberian Infantry) attack them in the front, enemy cant put their spears down, is trapped and get killed until the last man.
Absolutely agree, Phalanxes are obsolete when you use mobile tactics. Strip off the supporting skirmishers, missile and cavalary troops in the battle preliminaries, and such slow HI becomes helpless, as they can't maneuver fast enough, nor can withdraw effectively due to threat of Cavalry charge into rear.
Adding to hamilcarX's suggestion, is that you don't engage the Phalanxes with your swordsmen frontally until they're attacked from flank(s) and preferably rear. You may also be able to make maneuvers which disrupt the phalanxes as they struggle to wheel and re-form, which (I think) helps get a good score for the javelin men.
I've had great results with humble back-peddling Velites (skirmish & auto-fire off) who are happier than Hastati to retreat, the Phalanxes frontal assault.
Consistently, I loose fewer men to Phalanx based armies, than I do to onrushing Gaul spearwarbands, especially if they're backed up by skirmishers and charging Heavy Noble Cavalry who generally inflict some losses, say 50 or so men.
linkdrago
06-06-2008, 11:11
but if it's a situation such as the samaritan mound and the enemy has not got any missile units then the phanlax would be the way to got i think but if it archers then they would be useless unless you attack the archers with a quick unit the bring the phanlax into play
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