swords

[jerby]

hey,

Are swords moddable? will the gladius be lengthend ( it looks ridiculous) and it's moves corrected: in charge the leep up and swing down, the gladius is for stabbing not slashing) just keep em thrusting in the bellies.
will macedon get its famous curved sword ( also seen in 'alexander')?
will sparta get its 'kopis'?
will leaf-shaped spears be there?

( btw, i'm just looking for eyecandy. and maybe get some screenies after the hilarious, but less informative, weekly-news)

[The Wizard]

Just a note: the kopis is the same sword as the curved sword in the movie Alexander, and yes, kopeis will be added for the Hellenistic factions for those units that historically used them (some elite units of the Seleucids used the Celtic longsword, which they had adopted from the Galatians).

Personally I do not know about the jumping animation at the charge; I'm a historian, not a modeller, you see. ~;)

All weapons will be historically accurate; this includes leaf-shaped spearheads for Gallic and other non-phalanx thrusting spears.

Hope this helps,



~Wiz

[Tux]

Personally I do not know about the jumping animation at the charge; I'm a historian, not a modeller, you see. ~;)

The jump animation will be removed, for horses and men.
And the stabbing animation, we are allready making a new skeleton with new animations only for the romans and other units wich may use it from wich i don't know of.

[Randal]

Anyway, the Roman gladius was not used for stabbing exclusively. Yes, the literary sources do stress the Romans stabbed, but other evidence, such as the Adamklissi monument, show Roman soldiers using the gladius to thrust and slash. The sword doesn't have those edges for nothing, you know. A Roman would probably use whatever attack best fitted the situation.

[Mr Frost]

will sparta get its 'kopis'?

I believe the Spartans ended up prefering a very short straight edged sword . From what I've read it seemed more a thrusting weapon with a nearly triangular blade .
I cannot remember the sources now .

[Sarcasm]

The jump animation will be removed, for horses and men.
And the stabbing animation, we are allready making a new skeleton with new animations only for the romans and other units wich may use it from wich i don't know of.
I actually kinda of liked the jumping men animation....oh well....:disappointed:

Anyway, the Roman gladius was not used for stabbing exclusively. Yes, the literary sources do stress the Romans stabbed, but other evidence, such as the Adamklissi monument, show Roman soldiers using the gladius to thrust and slash. The sword doesn't have those edges for nothing, you know. A Roman would probably use whatever attack best fitted the situation.
Yes you can slash with a gladius, but the natural attack movement of a close-order, scutum-bearing, shortsword-yielding infantry is stabbing.

I believe the Spartans ended up prefering a very short straight edged sword . From what I've read it seemed more a thrusting weapon with a nearly triangular blade.
Poorer sarissa phalanxes would have been armed with very short swords or a long knife, and by 222BC Sparta had adopted this type of phalanx...so it´s possible that they would have such weapons, though I more inclined to think that the Lakedaemonians were wealthier and could afford better swords than those. But I would definitly would like to read about that. Post your sources once you´ve found them.

[Tux]

I actually kinda of liked the jumping men animation....oh well....:disappointed:

Well in my opinion it looks to arcade and don't think men would jump like that, it look like the troy movie wich was crap of a movie.

[The Stranger]

but some axe bearing warriors did jump and slash their opponent with the axe

[Salazar]

But imho they jump WEIRDLY high in the Game, also i think removing the jump anims should help make the Phalanx more realistic as eg. Cav wont anymore be able to simply jump over the whole Spear wall right into the Phalanx and smash it.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Well in my opinion it looks to arcade and don't think men would jump like that, it look like the troy movie wich was crap of a movie.I'm in total agreement.

[Sarcasm]

lol....I didn´t say they were realistic nor was I supporting the idea for it stay in the mod either. They simply looked.....cool. ~;)

[jerby]

hi, i'm back. troy is indeed crap.
the jumping thing is extremely high for even HEAVY infantry, the name states it: the won't jump that high.

did soem searching on websites. some stating the spartans used a kopis :

http://images.google.nl/imgres?imgurl=http://www.hellenic-art.com/armour/ah4111br.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.hellenic-art.com/armour/sword.htm&h=150&w=362&sz=18&tbnid=RLC42-Kx3cMJ:&tbnh=48&tbnw=116&start=1&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dspartan%2Bkopis%26hl%3Dnl%26lr%3D

the same site also shows a short sword of teh spartans. so it's up to EB to choose. thanks anyway, i'm happy.
I would be even happier with screenies... khev?

EDIT: I found a nice story about the spartan short sword:
'a young man stated that the spartan sword was too short and it should be bigger, the trainer said:"If you take a step forward in teh midst of battle you'll find it is long enough"'.

EDIT: The site says spartan could throw their spear and it was 2,5 m long ~:eek: ánd the spear is leaf-shaped. can this be done for eb?
btw, will the allied hellenes's swords be leaf shaped? will teh gladius?

[Sarcasm]

The kopis was a more expensive sword to make and it should be reserved for cavalry and above-average troops, though not necessarily elite.

The hoplite shortsword might be used....also, though I´m not sure, Iphikatrean swords were reported to be longer, and some eastern troops might also resort to a Celtic(Galatian) longsword.

I also vaguely remember a "no more leaf-shaped swords!" post somewhere....

As for discarding their spear, let alone throw a thrusting spear that long is doubtful to say the least.... ~:confused:

[Proper Gander]

Well in my opinion it looks to arcade and don't think men would jump like that, it look like the troy movie wich was crap of a movie.


it does, and the film was crap. but what about the horse jumps. i... like... them.

[Tux]

it does, and the film was crap. but what about the horse jumps. i... like... them.
Sry, they are unrealistic and because many copmalined that the cav is too powerfull against phalanx units and ohter units but phalanx ones more, it's clearly that we have to remove it to balance more tha game.

[jerby]

no more leafe shaped swords? NO!!!!!.
the early gladius was leaf shaped and so were greek sword i believe...pitty
anybody got a source? and EB members got an answer?

concerning throwing the spear: the site below the picture states

"The spear which was used by the hoplites of the Spartan infantry. The Spartan soldiers relied heavily on their long spears .The spear could either be thrown, or used in hand combat. It was usually thrown before engaging the enemy with swords.
Excellent realistic feeling
Length : 8 ft. (2,45 m)"

it is a market-site. but maybe it's true. anybodt got ideas for implementing? anybody got different source?

[Sarcasm]

no more leafe shaped swords? NO!!!!!.
the early gladius was leaf shaped and so were greek sword i believe...pitty
anybody got a source? and EB members got an answer?
http://www.larp.com/legioxx/blades.gif
Here are the shapes of the main gladius types (there are others....).

Hoplite shortswords from earlier times (500BC) are what you are refering to as "leaf-shaped greek sword"....though they might have been used till much later...

Here´s an interesting discussion for you and a an overall nice site...

Greek Swords, 500 BC (http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?threadid=25289)

Hellenistic swords in this time must have been either longer for hoplites(Iphikatrean reforms) or more like a large knife for most of the Pikemen.


concerning throwing the spear: the site below the picture states

"The spear which was used by the hoplites of the Spartan infantry. The Spartan soldiers relied heavily on their long spears .The spear could either be thrown, or used in hand combat. It was usually thrown before engaging the enemy with swords.
Excellent realistic feeling
Length : 8 ft. (2,45 m)"
Spartans used the classical hoplite, probably all the way to the 3rd century, when they are said to have been rearmed as pikeman (in the Macedonian style) in the reign of Cleomenes III.....before, as far as I know, they used an overhand thrusting spear, of about 2.5m so at least the length is about right.

Although Spartans were reputed as good sword fighters, their main weapon was the spear, so I doubt they would discard it like that (I can´t think of any source that states that they threw it). Throwing spears were used by line infantry but in much earlier Greek history, AFAIK. Akontistai, Peltastai (rearmed light hoplites), Ekdromoi, Thorakitai and Thureophoroi took the role of throwing missiles on the enemy line in later history.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

concerning throwing the spear: the site below the picture states

"The spear which was used by the hoplites of the Spartan infantry. The Spartan soldiers relied heavily on their long spears .The spear could either be thrown, or used in hand combat. It was usually thrown before engaging the enemy with swords.
Excellent realistic feeling
Length : 8 ft. (2,45 m)"

it is a market-site. but maybe it's true. anybodt got ideas for implementing? anybody got different source?Don't believe everything you read or hear. That is totally wrong.

[jerby]

http://www.larp.com/legioxx/blades.gif
Here are the shapes of the main gladius types (there are others....).

Hoplite shortswords from earlier times (500BC) are what you are refering to as "leaf-shaped greek sword"....though they might have been used till much later...

Here´s an interesting discussion for you and a an overall nice site...

Greek Swords, 500 BC (http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?threadid=25289)

Hellenistic swords in this time must have been either longer for hoplites(Iphikatrean reforms) or more like a large knife for most of the Pikemen.


your picture doesn;t work... but I get the picture

[jerby]

http://www.larp.com/legioxx/blades.gif
Here are the shapes of the main gladius types (there are others....).

Hoplite shortswords from earlier times (500BC) are what you are refering to as "leaf-shaped greek sword"....though they might have been used till much later...

Here´s an interesting discussion for you and a an overall nice site...

Greek Swords, 500 BC (http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?threadid=25289)

Hellenistic swords in this time must have been either longer for hoplites(Iphikatrean reforms) or more like a large knife for most of the Pikemen.


your picture doesn;t work... but I get the picture

[Sarcasm]

The site went down after I posted, so we´ll have to w8 a while before the image goes up again.

[jerby]

jup i see it. your right. by the time of this game the glaidus is straight. so if the picture is right. the the gladius is a 20 inch blade. that gives us about 55cm. s the gladius should be lengthed a bit in ebtw

[econ21]

I agree with Jerby that the RTW gladius looks too short and silly, but that's just a casual impression[1]. I'd be interested to know what EBs historians and modellers have concluded about this. I've not been following the project as closely as I'd like so I may have missed a discussion of this.

[1]Has any modder measured the length of the gladius as depicted in RTWs original graphics and compared it with historical measurements?

[Sarcasm]

It is, aparently, a bit shorter than it is supposed to, yes.

[Simetrical]

The gladius has been measured at 18.8 inches overall (see here (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=27778)), although the measuring techniques are somewhat imperfect. The blade alone of a gladius hispaniensis should be 24-27 inches, according to the source Sarcasm posted (which I use as well).

-Simetrical

[econ21]

Thanks for the link, Simetrical: fascinating stuff. Interesting to know that elephants should be even more impressive than they are now!