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View Full Version : On the Feeding and Breeding of Governors and Generals



Aesculapius
04-07-2005, 14:57
Being a treatise by Aesculapius, one of the lesser Gods, offered for the edification and judgement of all the Gods, that we all may more wisely deal with the mortals of Mare Nostrum.

There are many who believe that Rome: Total War is some kind of strategy wargame. Well, yes, I guess you could play it like that; but on another level, it resembles no other computer game so much as ‘The Sims’. It is full of characters who can be shaped, develop personalities (lovable, despicable, or even complex), have lives marked by joy, suffering, boredom and glory. With a little bit of attention to detail, you can shape those lives. And even if you’re one of those ‘strategy wargamers’, it can have payoffs for you…..!

Throughout this treatise, for simplicity’s sake I will use the generic term ‘character’ to refer to any male family member who has ‘come of age’. Some may take on a general’s role; some may become governors; many may flit between the two; and a few may fit neither purpose.

This treatise will discuss a few ideas for developing your characters into upright and powerful men, and using them to their best effect. I will concentrate on how to give them the best chance to acquire good traits and avoid bad traits; briefly discuss how to attract and manage a retinue; and touch on effective use of your own characters and how to undermine those of opposing factions. I do not pretend to be among the omniscient Gods, and I would welcome any corrections or additions to this treatise – I wish to learn more than I wish to teach.


On the Acquisition of Characters

The more characters at your disposal, the better. Characters are foci for accumulating beneficial traits and retinue; many provide instant pacification to, and revenue from, a newly conquered settlement; and if nothing else, they provide a cheap and early source of heavy cavalry. Characters may be acquired in the following ways:


Assigned at the start of the game: these characters are almost always particularly talented – indeed, some of them will have trait levels that can never be acquired elsewhere in the game (such as ‘Intelligent’, ‘Mathematician’ or ‘Strong as Stone’). While they are important to your early military expansion, they are also the founding fathers of your dynasty. To lose one of these early in the game is to lose an entire bloodline of future characters. Furthermore, as many traits are hereditary, it is worth micromanaging at least in the early stages, so that your ‘founding fathers’ develop optimum traits to pass on to their children.
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Adopted: these characters are generated either at random, or when an army captain repeatedly performs well in battle. They are sponsored for adoption by an existing character, and (with Patch 1.2) will appear in the same settlement as that parent. They will usually have a scattering of good military traits (especially the army captains, obviously), and the only negative trait they may have is a tendency to drink (although sobriety is more likely). On the face of it there seems no reason not to accept such a ‘free offer’, and in general adoptions should be accepted: not only are they useful in themselves, but they are breeding stock for future characters. The only downside is that existing sons of the parent may resent the new arrival – they have an aggregate 48% chance of developing at least one negative trait (and about a 13% chance of developing a positive trait) in response to the new arrival. So you may wish to look at your family tree and see how many existing sons, if any, may be put at risk.
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Married: your daughters are good for only two things in RTW: attracting nice young men, and breeding. Every now and then a suitor will ask for the hand of one of your daughters in marriage. Do not be as quick to accept as you might for an adoption – the emphasis should be on ‘nice’ and ‘young’. In other words, look at the headline stats, traits and age of the suitor. Also, look up on your family tree the age of the daughter in question. If she is young, and the suitor is old or a wastrel, turn him down – chances are she’ll get over him and find someone better. On the other hand, if your daughter is getting on a bit, you might as well accept – this could be her last chance (noble spinsters do not marry once past their childbearing years). All the nice girls love a soldier, it seems, and the suitors will often have a few good military traits. They are also less likely to be alcoholics than your adoptees.
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Bribery: take a good look at all the opposing generals and governors you encounter. Be eager to seduce onto your side any who are talented, particularly the young. Not only will you have increased your numbers and diminished the enemy’s; but also you will have enhanced your bloodline and weakened the enemy’s. Bearing in mind that holding too much cash can corrupt your governors (more about this later), this can be an excellent way of getting rid of surplus cash. Remember that an unsuccessful bribe enhances the traits of the enemy leader
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Birth and coming of age: this will be the source of the majority of your characters, as each generation marries and has offspring. Characters with the ‘fertile’ trait will, not surprisingly, have more offspring. Therefore if your faction has a Temple of Fertility available (Isis-Egyptian, Freja-German or Ceres-Julii), it is worth building these as your earliest temples, so that your founding fathers acquire the trait and give you a ‘baby boom’ at the start of the dynasty. Bear in mind that generals out in the field don’t get much sex (not with their wives, anyway). To stand a chance of breeding, your characters must spend some time in settlements, as no self-respecting noble matron will camp out with the boys (even if she was once a Headhunting Maiden).



Fatherhood is generally a good influence: characters have a good chance of becoming more Sober, Sane and Prim each time they have a child, although there is a small chance that fatherhood may actually drive them to Drink and Womanising. Boys come of age at the age of 16, so once the birth is announced, you will have to wait 32 turns until they are of use.


2^Traits that can be inherited||Traits that can be ‘anti-inherited’
“Chance” = chance of inheriting trait if father already has trait||“Chance” = chance of inheriting trait if father has the named anti-trait or para-trait
3^ Trait|Chance|Trait|Chance|Paternal trait
Aesthetic|15%|Austere|15%|Aesthetic
Austere|5%|Aesthetic|20%|Austere
Black Bile|5%|Blood|20%|Black Bile
Blood|5%|Yellow Bile|20%|Blood
Corrupt|15%|Upright|15%|Corrupt
Epicurean|25%|Stoic|10%|Epicurean
Expensive Tastes|25%|Cheapskate|10%|Expensive Tastes
Hates X|25%|Hates X|25%|Fears X
Games Fan|25%|Games Hater|50%|Games Fan
Games Hater|10%|Games Fan|10%|Games Hater
Generous|10%|Miserly|50%|Generous
Miserly|25%|Generous|15%|Miserly
Girls|20%|Bloodthirsty|20%|Haemophobic
* Drink|30%|* Sobriety|50%|Drink
* Handsome|50%|Phlegm|20%|Drink
* Inbred|50%|Yellow Bile|20%|Drink
* Infertile|75%|Black Bile|20%|Drink
* Ugly|50%|
Kind Ruler|50%|Harsh Ruler|50%|Kind Ruler
Natural Military Skill|30%|Kind Ruler|20%|Authoritarian
# Paranoia|20%|NonAuthoritarian|50%|Authoritarian
# Perverted|20%|
Phlegm|5%|Black Bile|20%|Phlegm
# Politics Skill|20%|# Deceiver|5%|Politics Skill
Pragmatic|20%|
Prim|20%|Lewd|10%|Prim
Public Atheism|20%|Feck|10%|Prim
Public Faith|20%|
Races Fan|25%|Races Hater|50%|Races Fan
Rhetoric Skill|20%|Inspiring Speaker|20%|Rhetoric Skill
Slothful|20%|
Smooth Talker|20%|Inspiring Speaker|20%|Smooth Talker
Stoic|20%|Brave|20%|Coward
Strategic Skill|20%|Prim|20%|Cuckold
Superstitious|20%|
Tactical Skill|20%|
Upright|20%|
Xenophilia|20%|
Xenophobia|20%|
Yellow Bile|5%|Phlegm|20%|Yellow Bile
4^=* Chance and degree of inheriting these traits is proportional to degree of paternal trait.
4^=# Inheriting these traits requires the father to have more than just the first degree of trait.



On the Acquisition of Traits

Traits may be acquired in the following manners:


Assigned by chance: this will happen when the character comes of age, is adopted, or marries into the family. Sons born into the family have the widest range of potential traits, though only a small chance of developing any given trait (a few of these traits are specific to certain cultures). Adopted sons or sons-in-law will tend to be assigned good military traits.
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By Inheritance: Natural sons may inherit traits, para-traits or anti-traits from their fathers as above. All classical genetics is Y-linked: no traits are inherited from mothers.
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By Sibling Resentment: as mentioned above, adopting a son may cause traits (mostly bad) in existing sons.
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By Self-Reinforcement: for many traits, once you have them, there is a small chance (4%) each turn of that trait becoming more pronounced. This may be particularly important for traits that have a ‘point of no return’. The majority of self-reinforcing habits are bad. A few traits may arise from other related traits (not detailed here).


2^Good self-reinforcing traits|Balanced self-reinforcing traits|Bad self-reinforcing traits
Austere|Aesthetic|Anger
Authoritarian (Other)|Cheapskate|Apician
Authoritarian (Roman)|Epicurean|Arse
Blood|Generous|Black Bile
Energetic|Miserly|Boring Speaker
Feck|Paranoia|Corrupt
Liar|Prim|Deranged
Phlegm|Stoic|Drink
Poetic Skill|Superstitious|Expensive Tastes
Secretive|Trusting|Gambling
Sobriety||Games Hater
Xenophobia||Girls
||Harsh Ruler
||Hypochondriac
||Ignorance
||Insane
||Lewd
||NonAuthoritarian
||Perverted
||Races Hater
||Slothful
||Talkative
||Touched by the Gods
||Unjust
||Xenophilia
||Yellow Bile



By Performance in Battle: these are detailed below in the discussion on Generals.
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By Building: these are detailed below in the discussion on Governors. Destroying buildings may enhance your reputation as a ‘Despoiler’.
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By Getting Married, or Having Children: marriage has great power to make drunkards ‘Sober’ and womanisers ‘Prim’, although rarely the opposite effect may occur. It also has a small chance of relieving insanity (no sniggers from the back, please). The same effects are seen each time the character becomes a father. The wife may be ‘Well-connected’, ‘Faithful’, or unfaithful (‘Cuckold’). There is a 4% chance each of the marriage being either particularly ‘Fertile’ or particularly ‘Unfertile’.
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By Acts of Leadership: several actions may enhance traits of the Faction Leader. Completing a senate mission improves your chances of being recognised as having ‘Plain Roman Virtue’. Destroying an enemy faction enhances your status as a ‘Victor’ by a whole two levels. Frequent orders of Assassination (‘Assassin Master’, ‘Deceiver’), Spying (‘Spy Master’, ‘Deceiver’), Sabotage (‘Despoiler’, ‘Deceiver’), Bribery (‘Political Skill’, ‘Deceiver’ and ‘Plain Roman Virtue’(!)), and Diplomacy (‘Political Skill’) gradually build the traits of a crafty leader.
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By Suffering Misfortune: these generally breed bad traits, with a few exceptions. Misfortunes include:

Suffering an Assassination Attempt: although this improves your ‘Personal Security’ from future attempts, it also has a significant chance of driving you to ‘Drink’, ‘Gambling’, womanising (‘Girls’), ‘Paranoia’ and eventual ‘Insanity’ or ‘Derangement’. For this reason it is worth sending assassins against enemy characters as often as you can: even if they stand no chance of success, the repeated attempts will eventually degrade that leader’s traits, and very possibly those of his future children. This is a powerful and underused tactic, particularly in multiplayer games. Surviving assassination has a small chance of affecting your character’s religious outlook, more likely for the worse (‘Pious’, ‘Religious Mania’, ‘Sacrilege’ or ‘Public Atheism’).
Exposure by Senate: this has a 20% chance of revealing previously unsuspected ‘Girls’, ‘Lewdness’, ‘Perversion’, ‘Sacrilege’, or homosexuality (‘Arse’).
Quaestorial Investigation: this has a 50% chance of revealing previously unsuspected ‘Corruption’, the degree of which will depend on the extent of the investigation. I am not sure whether Quaestorial Investigation or Senate Exposure affects only the Faction Leader, or potentially any character.
Hit by Disaster: this has a miniscule chance of affecting your character’s religious outlook (slightly more likely for the better). I’m not sure what qualifies as a Disaster: presumably volcanic eruptions, earthquakes or storms are included, but I don’t know about ‘family tragedies’ such as the death of a wife.

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By Sitting Around Doing Nothing: this is detailed further in the section on Governors.



On the Raising of Good Generals

The raising of good generals may be achieved by the following ten simple rules:


Win battles.
Win lots of them.
Win by crushing margins.
Win against the odds (or at least, without having the odds heavily in your favour – wins where you outmatched the enemy by more than 2:1 accomplish little for your general).

These four rules offer a variety of chances to develop good traits, depending on the circumstances of the battle and the magnitude of the achievement. Any victory at all will add one point to your ‘Victor’ trait (although it takes 5 points to move up to the next ‘Victor’ level). Any victory at all gives you a 4% chance of becoming an ‘Inspiring Speaker’. Any victory at odds of less than 2.25:1 adds a point to your ‘Good Commander’ trait – levels on this trait are gained against an exponential scale, so your first few victories will rapidly advance you to being a ‘Good…’ or ‘Superior Commander’, though higher levels will require many more victories. Any ‘clear or better’ victory at odds of less than 1.5:1 will advance you on the ‘Good Attacker’ or ‘Good Defender’ scale – the more decisive the victory, and the higher the odds against you, the further it will advance you in these traits. Crushing victories also give you a small chance of acquiring ‘Tactical Skill’. Strangely, although the traits of ‘Good Siege Attacker’, ‘Good Siege Defender’ and their ‘Bad’ equivalents exist, there is no way to acquire them in battle – you’re either born with them or you’re not.
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Avoid defeats.

While narrow defeats have no trait consequences, more decisive defeats (even by overwhelming opposition) run the risk of giving your general traits such as ‘Bad Attacker’, ‘Bad Defender’ or ‘Bad Commander’. Interestingly, the chances of acquiring a ‘bad’ trait from a given defeat are less than the chances of acquiring a ‘good’ trait from a corresponding victory – so over time the odds are weighted in your favour. A ‘crushing’ defeat when the odds were better than 1.5:1 in your favour will cause you to ‘Fear’ that culture evermore. However, a ‘crushing’ defeat at odds of 0.5 – 1.5:1 will inspire a ‘Hatred’ of that culture that will benefit you in future battles against them.
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Capture settlements and Wonders.

These give you further points on the ‘Victor’ trait – in particular, capturing a wonder adds 5 to your ‘Victor’ trait, enough to move up a level by itself.
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Enslave and exterminate.

Extermination will guarantee your reputation as a ‘Genocide’. Surprisingly, this is a good thing, as it increases the amount harvested in future lootings. Extermination may also make you more ‘Bloodthirsty’, while enslaving may make you a ‘Despoiler’. Of course, other factors than your general’s development may influence your management of a new conquest.
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Aim to personally kill at least 6 to 8 enemy soldiers in a battle.

This will enhance your chances of gaining the ‘Brave’ and ‘Roman Hero’ traits. If in the process you suffer injury to the extent of >30% of your hit points, so much the better – this further increases your chances of becoming ‘Brave’, a ‘Roman Hero’, ‘Berserker’, or ‘Battle-scarred’. It is possible that routing soldiers do not contribute to your tally.
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Commit to battle.

If battle is offered and you withdraw, you run a high risk of developing the ‘Indecisive Attacker’ trait, especially if you were the one to offer battle, or the odds were not against you. If you end a turn in the enemy’s zone of control and do not attack, you may (10%) also develop this trait. If the general routs, he runs the risk (25%) of being branded a coward – all the more so if he never even fought.
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Specialist command

Victories while commanding forces consisting of over >50% cavalry, or >80% infantry, will give you the traits of ‘Good Cavalry Commander’ or ‘Good Infantry Commander’ respectively – and vice versa for defeats.


Time spent ‘in the field’ (not on the march) has a very small chance of enhancing beneficial traits such as ‘Logistic Skill’, ‘Scout’, ‘Hale and Hearty’, and ‘Feck’; although if the said field lies in barbarian lands this may be offset by negative traits such as ‘Ignorance’ and ‘Cuckold’. Of course, time spent in the field is breeding time wasted: on balance, an idle general is better off returning to town for some marital nookie. Certain temples encourage military traits – see the section on Governors for more details. Other military traits may be acquired at random when the character comes of age, is adopted or marries into the family; or may be inherited (see above). Few if any military traits are self-reinforcing (see above).

The appearance of small groups of marauding rebels in your lands is a great boon. If you are able to recruit assassins, you can spend several turns training a few assassins to a high level of skill by assassinating successive rebel captains (though you will likely lose one or two assassins on the way). Thereafter, you could either send a diplomat to bribe the rebels (if they have usable military units or you need to get rid of cash); or you can send a small force for your general to gain valuable experience against apparently adverse odds. This is particularly true of rebel bands consisting solely of light infantry and missile footmen: in this situation the computer grossly undervalues the importance of cavalry mobility in determining odds. It can be quite easy for your general alone to triumph against apparently ‘overwhelming’ odds, and rapidly advance his military traits.


On the Raising of Good Governors

Developing good governors, unlike developing good generals, is a complex matter. It is a skill more easily acquired by those who enjoy micromanagement. General principles include


Select Good Temples

What the building information scroll doesn’t tell you about temples is their effect on governors. With the exception of Neptune-Scipii, every temple can influence your governors’ traits, for good or ill. The probabilities range from 2% - 15% per turn, which can of course really mount up over the years. The probability is only applied if the governor remains in the settlement for the entire turn without moving. In theory, then, you can avoid the effects of ‘bad’ temples by moving your governor out of and back into the settlement each turn; in practice, this will become tedious for all except the most dedicated micromanager.

Several temples provide a mix of good and bad traits, and are not detailed here. Temples that are undoubtedly good for governors (or in some cases, generals) include:


2^Type|Examples (Culture)|Traits (Chance per turn)
Battle|Ares (Thrace), Hebeleysis (Dacia)|Tactical Skill (6%), Berserker (15%)
Battleforge|Vahagan (Armenia), Toutatis (Gaul and Spain)|Brave (15%)
Farming|Tanit (Carthage and Numidia), Bendis (Dacia), Demeter (Macedon)|Good Farmer (10%)
Fertility|Freja (Germany), Ceres (Julii)|Fertile (10%)
Forge|Zalmoxis (Dacia), Hephaestus (Seleucia), Vulcan (Scipii)|Good Engineer (10%), Good Miner (10%)
Justice|Baal (Carthage and Numidia), Essus (Gaul and Spain), Set (Egypt)|Justice (10%), Harsh Justice (10%)
Law|Horus (Egypt), Saturn (Scipii), Papay (Scythia)|Austere (6%), Sober (15%), Harsh Justice (6%)
Leadership|Aramzd (Armenia), Athene (Greece), Jupiter (Julii)|Strategic Skill (10%), Trusting (10%)
One God|Zoroastra (Parthia)|Pious (10%), Good Administrator (10%)
Victory|Andrasta (Britain), Nike (Greece)|Pragmatic (10%), Good Risky Attacker (10%), Warlord (10%)


There is one group of temples that is irredeemably bad for governors: the Temples of Fun, namely Anahit-Armenia, Osiris-Egypt, Bacchus-Julii, and Dionysus-Thrace/Seleucia). These all have a 10% chance per turn of encouraging ‘Drink’ or ‘Gambling’; a 5% chance per turn of encouraging ‘Perversion’ or ‘Girls’, and a 2% chance per turn of encouraging homosexuality (‘Arse’). These corrupting effects can easily outweigh the beneficial effects they have on public order. I would go so far as to recommend never building or keeping these temples, except in two circumstances: firstly, in settlements in which you never intend to have a governor for any length of time; or secondly, as a short-term measure in a newly-conquered settlement that is difficult to control – once the post-conquest unrest has settled, you can knock down the Temple of Fun and build something more, shall we say, respectable.

Temples of Love (Api-Scythia, and Aphrodite-Greece/Pontus), and Temples of Trade (Hermes-Greece, Mercury-Brutii, Britannia-Britain, and Milqart-Carthage/Numidia) encourage several bad traits. These are: ‘Expensive Tastes’, ‘Gambling’ and ‘Girls’, partly offset by the more balanced ‘Epicurean’ and ‘Aesthetic’ traits. However, these effects only apply when the temple is 'awesome' or greater (and are hence academic for Api-Scythia and Britannia-Britain, which cannot build temples beyond 'large'). Below this level, the Temples of Love do nothing at all to traits; while the Temples of Trade encourage the 'Good Trader', 'Deceiver' (both desirable), 'Cheapskate' (part good, part bad) and 'Embezzler' (undoubtedly bad) traits. I would treat Temples of Love and of Trade with caution for your governors’ sake.
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Build Wisely

Completing any building at all gives your governor a 20% chance of becoming a ‘Good Builder’, and an 8% chance of developing ‘Architect Skill’. In particular, completing buildings while your tax level is ‘very high’ gives you a chance of becoming a ‘Good Administrator’, and (if your ‘face’ is blue) a ‘Good Taxman’. Conversely, NOT building (when you have cash to do so) gives you a 3% chance per turn of becoming a ‘Bad Builder’. Also, completing a building when your tax rate is unnecessarily low gives you a 15% chance of moving up the 'Bad Taxman' scale.

The order you build in can be important - and complicated. For example, each time you complete a building that is NOT one of the 'farm' series, you have an 8% chance of becoming a 'Bad Farmer'. This is easily dealt with: as soon as you complete a building that IS from the 'farm' series, you have a 100% chance of gaining a point as a 'Good Farmer', which will cancel out your 'Bad Farmer' point. Beware, though: once your governor reaches the point that he 'Loathes Farmers', there's no going back. So as soon as he's a 'Poor Farmer' or 'Dislikes Farmers', get him to build a farm somewhere if you want to stop him reaching the Point of No Return!

In fact, the whole structure of the 'Farming' traits is quite interesting. It seems a lot easier to become a 'Bad Farmer' than a 'Good Farmer', despite the fact that building a 'non-farm' has only an 8% chance of ill effect compared to the 100% chance of good effect from building a farm. This is because it takes only one point of being a 'Bad Farmer' to move you up to the next level of 'Bad Farmer', whereas it takes at least six points of being a 'Good Farmer' to move up to the next good level. So 'Good Farmer' points are good for cancelling out 'Bad Farmer' traits, but not so good at actually making you a 'Good Farmer'. Indeed, short of touring from town to town building nothing but farms, the only effective way for your governor to become a good farmer is to worship at a Temple of Farming (Tanit-Carthage/Numidia, Bendis-Dacia, or Demeter-Macedon).

A similar position applies to the 'Bad Trader'-'Good Trader' traits. Completing any building that is not from the 'trader/market' series gives you a 1% chance of moving up the 'Bad Trader' scale. "Only 1%?", you say, "Not too bad". Well, yes, but the bad news is that you only have to reach the second level, 'Inferior Trader' (3 points) to be past rehabilitation as a trader. The good news is that you can get 'Good Trader' points by completing buildings from not only the 'trader/market' series, but also the 'road' and 'port' series. In fact, the 'road' and 'port' series actually give you a better chance (80%) of wiping out your 'Bad Trader' status that the 'trader/market' series (50%). It takes no less than 24 'Good Trader' points to reach the first 'Good Trader' level (and 48 to reach 'Superior Trader', the point of no return). So again you are unlikely to become a 'Good Trader' unless you worship at a Temple of Trade - but see the caution about Trade temples above.

The situation with mines is a little different. Firstly, you only get 'Bad Miner' points if you built something other than mines (or mines+1) against the advice of Victoria - although your chance is 100% if you were indeed so stubborn. Secondly, it takes 8 'Bad Miner' points to actually become an 'Indifferent Miner', and 16 to reach the Point of No Return, 'Poor Miner' - so you'd have to ignore Victoria for a heck of a long time to actually become a 'Bad Miner'. Conversely, it only takes 2 'Good Miner' points to become a 'Good Miner', and completing a mine guarantees you a 'Good Miner' point. So simply completing mines and mines+1 as soon as they are available (or at least as soon as they are recommended) will guarantee you this trait. However, to progress to 'Superior Miner' (the positive Point of No Return) will require you either to move to another settlement where you can build more mines; or (if you have the time and the money) to destroy your mines and build them again!

Building an Amphitheatre and a Colosseum (or two Amphitheatres, or two Colossea, if you move settlements) will guarantee that you become a 'Games Fan'. The only exception is if you are already a 'Games Hater', a trait that cannot be lost. Being a ‘Games Fan’ is a good thing on balance. Likewise, building any two of Hippodrome and Circus Maximus will make you into a ‘Races Fan’, (which is not necessarily such a good thing), unless you are already a ‘Race Hater’.

Certain buildings are intrinsically corrupting, and it is probably wise to avoid building these for as long as possible, if not indefinitely. These buildings are the Theatre, City Plumbing (yes, City Plumbing!), the Silk Road, and the Tavern. The first three all give (per turn) a 5% chance of becoming ‘Aesthetic’, ‘Epicurean’ or having ‘Expensive Tastes’, and a 3% chance of developing a liking for ‘Gambling’ or ‘Girls’. In the case of the Silk Road, the chances are applied twice per turn. The Tavern gives a 5% chance per turn of becoming addicted to ‘Drink’ or ‘Gambling’. As with Temples, these corrupting influences may be prevented by the tedious expedient of ‘going for a walk’ every turn.

Each time you train a unit, when your tax level is ‘very high’, you have a 3% chance of enhancing your ‘Good Administrator’ skill.

(My thanks to sunsmountain, who put me right on several errors in this section of my original post - now corrected.)
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… and Destroy Wisely

Destroying a building is a remarkably life-enhancing thing for a governor with military ambitions to do. It gives him a 10% chance of becoming known as a ‘Despoiler’, which improves his looting abilities in future conquests. Clearly it will benefit any governor to destroy corrupting temples and buildings, as outlined above. It is worth destroying temples of other cultures, as you can seldom enlarge them with your own temples, and replacing the religions of the colonies reduces cultural differences. You may consider destroying other ‘foreign’ buildings as a rapid means of establishing cultural dominance.
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Avoid Financial Temptation

Once your treasury stands at more than 50 000 denarii, your governors – indeed, any character that ends the turn in a settlement - will be tempted to dip their sticky paws into it. Each turn, each of your characters will stand a 3% chance of developing each of the ‘Aesthetic’, ‘Bad Administrator’, ‘Corrupt’, ‘Epicurean’, ‘Expensive Tastes’ and (in the case of the Romans) ‘Apician’ traits. Once your treasury passes 100 000, the 3% chance is applied twice per turn; and over 150 000 it is applied three times per turn. The chance is applied to anyone ending in a settlement, whether or not they have moved during that turn. That stacks up to a lot of corruption, very fast, across all your characters.

There are several ways to control your treasury:

Each time you approach a ‘corruption threshold’, go on a building spree.
Each time you approach a ‘corruption threshold’, go bribe an enemy.
Keep recruiting more and more military to balance your expenditure against your income. This should be done carefully - steady income is what counts. Expanding to spend a sudden windfall might throw you into a spiralling negative balance a few turns later, forcing you to disband your new units wastefully.

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The Benefits of Untaxed Unrest

Amazing though it may seem, riots and rebellion are good for your governors. These events force them to get tough and develop generally good traits such as ‘Authoritarian’, ‘Disciplinarian’, ‘Rabble-rousing’ and ‘Harsh Justice’. However, if such unrest is brought about by lazy tax policies – in other words if it happens when tax is anything other than ‘Low’ – the governor will certainly become known as a ‘Bad Administrator’.
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Keep a Pet Spy On Hand

Each time you capture an enemy spy, you gain on the ‘Counterspy’ scale; each time you capture an assassin, you become a better ‘Assassin Catcher’. Effectively then, these traits are self-reinforcing. To get your foot on the ladder, keep a spy in your city for counterespionage.


On the Acquisition of Retinue

A good retinue can significantly enhance a character’s abilities, either as general or governor. Indeed, with micromanagement a retinue can be even more valuable than good traits: traits die with you, whereas a retinue can be passed from one character to another. A detailed analysis of the acquisition and effects of individual ancillaries is beyond the scope of this treatise, but here follow some general points.


Almost all ancillaries have good effects, although a few are offset by bad effects. The only thoroughly bad ancillaries are the Evil Mother-in-Law, the Drunken Uncle, the Floozy, the Slubberdegullion, and the Idiot. Bad ancillaries with redeeming features include the Senatorial Horse, the Inflatable Sheep, the Tax Farmer, the Overseer, the Problem Mother, the Elderly Spinster Aunt and the Overprotective Nanny,
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Most ancillaries are acquired by spending a full turn (without moving) in a well-developed settlement. A variety of buildings serve as sources for ancillaries, usually in predictable fashion: clearly a Temple of Mars will generate Priests of Mars; a foundry will produce Armourers; a theatre will produce Actors etc. Some ancillaries are additionally dependent on their master holding certain traits.
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The ‘Academy’ buildings generate a relatively small proportion of the 190 different ancillaries: the Chirurgeon, the Doctor, the Geographer, the Historian, the Librarian, the Mathematician, the Philosopher, the Scribe, and (conditionally on other buildings) the two Freeman Clerks, the Geomancer, the Geometer, the Military Engineer, and the Mining Engineer. In addition, the academies educate the 42 unique ‘named’ ancillaries (such as Archimedes, Livy, Ariston of Cyrene), who can only appear in your retinue during the years of their historical lifetime. Contrary to belief in some circles, the Academies have no influence on traits at all.
.
Some ancillaries are acquired in battle. The Haruspex and the Soothsayer may be acquired after a defeat. The following may be acquired after a victory, usually with certain conditions: the Decorated Hero, the Veteran Centurion, the Veteran Warrior, the Heroic Saviour, the Famous Warrior, the Military Tribune, the Galloper, the Runner, the Scout, the Shieldbearer, the Swordbearer and the Floozy.
.
Certain ancillaries may be acquired on Coming of Age, dependent on the father’s traits. These are the Mentor, the Tutor, the Aged Retainer, the Overprotective Nanny, and the Problem Mother. On marrying, a character who is fond of ‘Girls’, ‘Gambling’ and ‘Drink’ is likely to acquire an Evil Mother-in-Law. A few other miscellaneous activities may generate ancillaries, such as surviving assassination attempts, ordering an assassination, enslaving a settlement, completing a building, hiring mercenaries, or simply wandering around the countryside.
.
Ancillaries may be passed from one character to another (and thereby live indefinitely). However, if the character dies, any ancillaries in his retinue at the time disappear into retirement. Hence the idea of the Regional Convocation of Governors, the Slave Market or the 50th Birthday Party. This is a micromanagement strategy that involves getting all the characters in a region together once in a while and trading ancillaries. Ancillaries that provide military benefits can be concentrated in the retinues of generals, while those that provide managerial benefits can be given to governors. A good military retinue, passed on from an elderly general, can convert a bland newcomer into an instant command talent.

Some have suggested that it is cruel to strip an elderly family member of his faithful servants, but think of it rather like this: the elder statesman, recognising his advancing years, is preparing for death by assigning his assets – nay, his friends – to younger members of his family. This philosophical view of approaching death is perhaps particularly appropriate to the Roman world view. An alternative method of achieving the same end is the Travelling Salesman - see the section on 'Useless Characters' below.
.
In order to trade ancillaries, characters need to be present in the same place. Open one character’s scroll; with the left mouse button, click and drag the ancillary from the scroll onto the unit card of the receiving character. Just imagine: you can give away your Evil Mother-in-Law! (All right, you can snigger this time). Certain ancillaries will refuse to serve in the same retinue as certain others (for example, a Crooked Judge will never travel with an Honest Man, and Pet Lions and Pet Hunting Dogs will no more get along than a Problem Mother with an Evil Mother-in-Law).




2^Top 21 ancillaries for governors|Top 21 ancillaries for generals|Top 21 ancillaries overall|Worst 21 ancillaries
Priest of Britannia (2)|Orator|Orator|Idiot
Priest of Hermes|Famous Warrior|Priest of Bacchus|Evil mother-in-law
Priest of Mercury|Military engineer|Priest of Dionysius|Slubberdegullion
Priest of Milqart|Siege engineer|Elder senator|Drunken Uncle
Scribe ancillary|Oracle|Oracle|Overseer
Priest of Vulcan|Praetorian guardsman|Praetorian guardsman|Tax farmer
Priest of Zalmoxis|Priest of Jupiter|Priest of Britannia (2)|Problem mother
Priest of Haphaestus|Priest of Zoroaster|Priest of Hermes|Over-protective nanny
Priest of Bacchus|Pontifex|Priest of Jupiter|Inflatable sheep
Priest of Dionysus|Priest of Armazd|Priest of Mercury|Elderly spinster aunt
Equestrian|Priest of Ares|Priest of Milqart|Senatorial horse
Merchant|Priest of Donar|Priest of Zoroaster|Floozy
Mining engineer|Priest of Hebelysis|Scribe ancillary|Trusty steed
Numismatist|Priest of Hercules|Priest of Vulcan|Astrologer
Silk merchant|Priest of Mars|Priest of Zalmoxis|Shield-bearer
Spice merchant|Priest of Andrasta|Priest of Hephaestus|Food-taster
Surveyor|Mercenary captain|Editor|Cook
Goldsmith|Druid Type 2|Herald|Sword-bearer
Jeweller|Master embalmer (!)|Magician|Heroic Saviour
Priest of Saturn|Priest of Asklepios|Pontifex|Gladiator
Brilliant Inventor|Priest of Bendis|Satirist|Witch


This table is based on a modified version of the spreadsheet of Winnie the Pooh at www.geraldtan.com/rtw, wherein may be found much more useful information on Ancillaries. This table does not include the unique 'named' Ancillaries.


On ‘Useless’ Characters

Occasionally, the alea of genetics or the curse of the Gods will give you a son so useless, so corrupt, so depraved or so insane as to be a downright liability. What can you do with such a man? Here are some options.

If they are truly beyond redemption (and many bad traits have ‘points of no return’), the best option is constructive suicide. Load him up with any undesirable ancillaries you wish to get rid of, and send him into hopeless battle. Such a battle may be single-handed (the difficulty here may be preventing survival by routing), and if the Gods should lift their curse and allow him to win, he may become a useful though eccentric commander.

Alternatively, you may use him as cheap cavalry in a larger battle to sacrificially tie up or disrupt an enemy unit.

A third option is to abandon him in the country-side to provide line-of-sight, guard a strategic passage or ambush passing enemies.

You can send him travelling around all your settlements and generals in the field, siphoning off any 'bad' ancillaries you've collected - i.e. make him into a "garbage collector". You could take it a step further: if a governor has an ancillary that's of more use to a general (or vice versa), let the family member in question 'collect' that ancillary and deliver it to where it'll be of more use - the "travelling salesman".

Lastly, if you wish to salvage such an unfortunate, keep him in a settlement with a more experienced governor (so his bad traits are not the ones that influence the town). Hope for him to find some girl foolish enough to marry him (I don’t think there is anything you can do to hasten this process). Marriage often improves a man. If possible, keep him in a settlement with a Temple of Fertility. This will encourage him to father many children, which also has an improving effect. Bear in mind that his male children may inherit some of his flaws. Occasional ‘minority raids’ against marauding rebels (see the end of the section on Generals) may allow him to develop valuable military skills. Be wary of adopting brothers to such a man – this may undo any good work you may have achieved; although the brother may be more useful than the man himself.


On the Importance of Senate Offices

The leaders of the Roman world are at a particular advantage in having the Offices of Senate. These are re-assigned every four years. The basis for assigning the offices is not known to me, but presumably depends on a combination of Senate Popularity and Electability. Early in the game most offices are held by leaders of the Senatus PopulusQue Romanus (SPQR).


|… Electability|… Senate Popularity
Traits that Reduce…|Races Fan, Talkative|Games Fan, Victor (Roman), Feck
Traits that Enhance…|Deceiver, Plain Roman Virtue, Political Skill, Rhetoric Skill, Well-connected Wife, Secretive|Deceiver, Plain Roman Virtue, Political Skill, Rhetoric Skill, Well-connected Wife, Authoritarian (Roman), Games Hater


The importance of the Senate Offices lies not only in the benefits held by the Office itself; but (perhaps more importantly) in the fact that benefits still accrue to former holders of offices. For this reason it is valuable to accumulate as many offices as early on as possible: not only are you accumulating current and future benefits to your own characters, but you are also denying them to your rivals. Many of the above traits you will have no control over; but is worthwhile to fulfil as many Senate missions and order as much spying, bribery, diplomacy, assassination and sabotage as you can early on, in order to achieve ‘Deceit’, ‘Plain Roman Virtue’ and ‘Political Skill’.

Another benefit of prior office is that you cannot hold an office without having previously held the next lower-ranking office: in order to be elected Praetor, you must previously have served as Aedile, which means you must have been an ex-Questor etc.


2^Senate Office|Benefits to Holder|Benefits to Ex-holder
Quaestor|Management+1|None
Aedile|Management+1, Law+1|Law+1
Praetor|Management+1, Law+2|Influence+1, Law+1
Consul|Command+2, Influence+2|Command+1
Censor|Management+2, Influence+3|Influence+2
Pontifex Maximus|Influence+5|Influence+3


Herein is all that I, Aesculapius, know of the shaping of the lives of men. May Minerva, wisest among the Gods, expand my learning and grant insight to all who read it.

imdWALRU5
04-07-2005, 16:10
wow
:dizzy2:

You really put a lot of time into this

Thanks for the great info

*Ringo*
04-07-2005, 17:06
Man, i think i'll read the details later, i've got enough reading on my plate at the moment! ~;)

Excellent work though Aesculapius, i needed some form of tabulated data on traits; finding the anti-trait to some of the worse personality defects will be much easier now! ~:thumb:

drone
04-07-2005, 17:18
Nice work. You might want to see if they will take this on the Guides page, so it doesn't get lost.
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=78
~:cheers:

Magraev
04-07-2005, 17:52
Excellent and useful work - thanks :bow:

cunctator
04-07-2005, 18:41
Really awesome! That must be a lot of work.

Mikeus Caesar
04-07-2005, 20:48
Wow. That's a lot of useful work you've done. Thank you!

P.S the last time i saw so much writing about breeding, it was at crufts, lol.

Browning
04-08-2005, 09:10
Can we sticky this?

PseRamesses
04-08-2005, 11:35
Aesculapius,
Absolutely outstanding work m8! I salute you.

AussieGiant
04-08-2005, 11:53
Aesculapius,

Maaate, impressive.

But, just how the hell did you work all this out?? Don't get me wrong I think it is an immense piece of work.

Are you a CA guy from "down under"?

The Storyteller
04-08-2005, 12:13
This is really amazing, and very helpful. However, I must confess that I look for ways to give characters BAD traits and ancillaries, as it gives me great pleasure to read their descriptions, as well as hear their effects on my generals' speeches!

So... is there anyone out there who can tell me how to encourage generals to acquire Evil mothers in Law, or fear Moon People, or go Dangerously Mad, or anything else that's entertaining?

Arrowhead
04-08-2005, 12:19
Absolutly incredible.



~:cheers:

Aesculapius
04-08-2005, 17:20
Glad to have been of help - and flattered to be mistaken for a CA guy, which I'm not!


Originally posted by AussieGiant
But, just how the hell did you work all this out??

Well, O Swiss Aussiegiant, all the technical stuff on traits and triggers is out of export_descr_character_traits.txt (in the Data folder of your R:TW installation). An easier version to read is this Excel spreadsheet on Traits (http://www.twcenter.net/downloads/db/?mod=467) here, which allows you to search and sort the effects of any given trait, as well as describing the triggers that influence them.

Much of the info on temples has been published in this forum, for example the work of a certain repentant Sinner, quoted in Frogbeastegg's guide here (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=612812&postcount=4). Again, you might find this Excel spreadsheet on Temples (http://www.twcenter.net/downloads/db/?mod=466) useful for searching and sorting - it includes info on traits acquired by attending temples.




Originally posted by Storyteller
So... is there anyone out there who can tell me how to encourage generals to acquire Evil mothers in Law, or fear Moon People, or go Dangerously Mad, or anything else that's entertaining?

That should give you some good stories! To acquire an Evil Mother-in-Law, you must be a general who is fond of Drink, Gambling and Girls. Then (obviously) you must get married. You'll have a 50% chance of acquiring an Evil Mother-in-Law, assuming your retinue isn't already full. The Excel spreadsheet on Traits (http://www.twcenter.net/downloads/db/?mod=467) (see above) should help you go Dangerously Mad. As for fearing the Moon People - well, I can't say I've ever tried it. It's not a trait in itself - I think it's something said by Barbarian generals who are Deranged, but I'm open to correction.

As for having this pinned or moved to the Guides - well, I'd be delighted, but I guess that's up to the Greater Gods!

starkhorn
04-08-2005, 17:58
Out-standing....really out-standing.

Raijer
04-08-2005, 21:43
Absolutely amazing... a must read for any player. Informative and entertaining, this work surely deserves a place among the other learned treatises found in the Guides forum! Well done Aesculapius!

Divinus Arma
04-10-2005, 04:32
This should go in the guides forum. Contact frogbeastegg.

Wargfang
04-10-2005, 06:29
Brilliant post. I am inspired. In my next campaign (only 4 cities to go in this one) I shall pay extra attention to Traits et all.

Be Well

Catiline
04-13-2005, 09:57
Moved to guides to ensure it doesn't get lost...

IliaDN
04-13-2005, 11:12
:bow: :bow: :bow: GREAT WORK :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:

nidpants
04-13-2005, 21:43
i must admit...i was going to do the same thing! exactly! quite exactly! i'm exactly one step behind you! i even have a profilable Excel sheet with all traits and triggers. *sigh*

sunsmountain
04-15-2005, 17:30
First of all, great guide, Aesculapius! This one was definitely on my to do list, and i'm glad you already did it. This certainly deserves a Sticky, though all threads are still on the first page. It took me some time here before i even noticed it, though!

Everything seems in order, except for one section, the one about building. I'm quoting here for reference, with comments in between.



2. Build Wisely

Completing any building at all gives your governor a 20% chance of becoming a ‘Good Builder’, and an 8% chance of developing ‘Architect Skill’. In particular, completing buildings while your tax level is ‘high’ or ‘very high’ gives you a chance of becoming a ‘Good Administrator’, and (if your ‘face’ is yellow) a ‘Good Taxman’. Conversely, NOT building (when you have cash to do so) gives you a 3% chance per turn of becoming a ‘Bad Builder’.


The tax level has to be 'very high', in order to get Good Administrator. > does not mean equal to, and export_descr_character_traits says > high, therefore: very high.
For the same reason, your face has to be blue (disillusioned) AND the tax level has to be very high, in order to get 'Good Taxman'. Since you only want the first level of 'Good Taxman' - no side effects - it is a good idea to increase the public order from 75% to 85% after you got the trait and keep it there, unless you can handle the unrest at 24000 pop.

Conversely, when tax level is 'low' or 'normal', and your face is yellow or green (not disillusioned), you stand a 15% chance of gaining BadTaxman (when a building is completed, of course, as above).



Your choice of buildings is important. It is worth completing farms, mines, roads, ports and traders early, as each time you complete a building after these are present, you stand a chance of becoming a ‘Good Farmer’ (farms), ‘Good Miner’ (mines) or ‘Good Trader’ (roads, ports and traders). Conversely, if you complete other buildings before these, you may be labelled a ‘Bad Farmer’, ‘Bad Trader’, or ‘Bad Miner’ (particularly if Victoria advised you to build mines and you ignored her).


In short, no, choice isn't important. The traits Good Farmer, Trader and Miner are ONLY checked when you build Farms, {Traders, Roads and Ports} and Mines respectively.
* Building anything other than 'Farms' (farms level 1-5), will get you an 8% chance at gaining 1 point in Bad Farmer. Should this happen to you, let that governor build a farm next, not necessarily in that settlement, to get rid of it.
no going back: 3 points either way.
* Building anything other than 'Traders' (trader level 1-5), including Roads and Ports, give you 1% chance at gaining 1 point in Bad Trader. You get rid of it the same way.
no going back: 2 point either way.
* Building anything other than Mines (mines, mines+1), while Victoria is advising you not to, will always gain you 1 point of Bad Miner; you can ignore her 7 times.
no going back: 2 points either way.

Since these traits have thresholds, to get them your governor needs to build:
- 6 farms,
- 2 mines, and
- 48 traders or 30 ports or 30 roads (or for example 16 traders and 10 ports and 10 roads) just to get the 1st level, on average, a similar amount for the 2nd level, and two times more to reach the 3rd.
They also cannot be inherited, making good trader something for trade temple factions only.

Because of no going back its good strategy to have every governor build:
- 3 farms
- mines when necessary (destroy and rebuild once)
- 4 traders or 2,5 ports or 2,5 roads (or 1 trader and 1 ports and 1 roads)
to get into the safe zone.



Once an amphitheatre is present, each time you complete a building you are guaranteed to become more of a ‘Games Fan’ (unless you already have the ‘Games Hater’ trait, which cannot be lost). Being a ‘Games Fan’ is a good thing on balance. Likewise, once a hippodrome is present, any further building will make you into a ‘Races Fan’, (which is not necessarily such a good thing), unless you are already a ‘Race Hater’.


When you build 2 out of the 3 (arena, amphitheatre AND coliseum), you are guaranteed to become a Games Fan (threshold 2, both give 100% chance on increasing the trait by 1).
Same for Races Fan if you build 2 out of 2 (with hippodrome AND circus maximus).
Buiding anything else does not trigger the governor to become more or less of a fan.



Certain buildings are intrinsically corrupting, and it is probably wise to avoid building these for as long as possible, if not indefinitely. These buildings are the Theatre, City Plumbing (yes, City Plumbing!), the Silk Road, and the Tavern. The first three all give (per turn) a 5% chance of becoming ‘Aesthetic’, ‘Epicurean’ or having ‘Expensive Tastes’, and a 3% chance of developing a liking for ‘Gambling’ or ‘Girls’. In the case of the Silk Road, the chances are applied twice per turn. The Tavern gives a 5% chance per turn of becoming addicted to ‘Drink’ or ‘Gambling’. As with Temples, these corrupting influences may be prevented by the tedious expedient of ‘going for a walk’ every turn.

Amen, and nothing wrong with this. Thanks for blacklisting these! :)



Each time you train a unit, when your tax level is ‘high’ or ‘very high’, you have a 3% chance of enhancing your ‘Good Administrator’ skill.

This is perhaps a bit out of place (move to first paragraph?) and your tax level needs to be 'very high' as before. It may be noted that this is the only trait that uses GovernorUnitTrained, and rightly so.

MajorFreak
04-17-2005, 22:45
First off, great work! Secondly, i feel stupid. i didn't know there was a way to check which general was adopting...and GOOD thing i read this before i went off and farmed for adoptees.

now then, my question is this: how do i get a certain infertile line of my family to start popping out adoptees? and how do i check who's adopting?


oh, and why exactly is city plumbing bad? that's crazy! lol...oh well, i suppose it's the same as taverns are, eh? mmmmmmmmm...guess i'll make those in cities i don't govern. BTW, i discovered i'd gain traits/ancillaries of FOREIGN temples - amazing!

~:eek: and bugger it, i'm screwed! i've got 150k+ and drowning fast in gold pieces. eeek!!btw, i'm playing Brutii right now since i've discovered blitzing around in my Briton Archer Chariots is too easy, but i also found the barbarian ancilliaries to be rather limited....which is nice in a way, but rather dreary. One thing that was driving me crazy was getting the druid and wiseman. they seemed rarer than witch/wisewoman...any clue?EDIT: silly me, haven't answered my questions yet, but i discovered that when you bribe enemy generals you actually keep their retinues too! (guess i'd never checked and been bribing the ones without)

Ahmose
04-18-2005, 15:12
thx Aesculapius it is a great work and helpfull informations for any player .
after reading your post I did some tests about Marry . I had a boy of 16 years old wants to marry my 12 years old daughters with nice millitary traits . So, I accepted .. the girl had a brother of 18 years old and doing well in governing one of my sattelments and ops he got the " Minon " trait . I reloded the game from autosave and checked his traits and found him hadn't any kind of bad traits . Then , the marrige screene still there so I accepted again and he got the " Anger " trait . after doing this ( accept then relod then check his traits ) I pulled hip out the city before accepting the marragie and he didn't get any bad traits . He still doing well until now and I got another brother to him had a " understanding of Tactics " and " Deavot " traits . Finally, the point is when there is a guy you want him get your daughter's hand click on the small box in up right in the messege screene and it will minimize then any pull out any brother for that daughter from any city and they will not get any bad traits . I hope it will help .
thx for all :bow:

MajorFreak
04-20-2005, 05:52
Certain buildings are intrinsically corrupting, and it is probably wise to avoid building these for as long as possible, if not indefinitely. These buildings are the Theatre, City Plumbing (yes, City Plumbing!), the Silk Road, and the Tavern. The first three all give (per turn) a 5% chance of becoming ‘Aesthetic’, ‘Epicurean’ or having ‘Expensive Tastes’, and a 3% chance of developing a liking for ‘Gambling’ or ‘Girls’. In the case of the Silk Road, the chances are applied twice per turn. The Tavern gives a 5% chance per turn of becoming addicted to ‘Drink’ or ‘Gambling’. As with Temples, these corrupting influences may be prevented by the tedious expedient of ‘going for a walk’ every turn.does that include sewers and stuff? i'm assuming it does...please clarify the benefits to this stuff, because i'm getting leary of using it in places i have governors.

sunsmountain
04-20-2005, 18:07
No, sewers are safe. As are public baths and aqueducts. The >= signs apply to certain groups of buildings, so in the group:

{farms, farms+1, farms+2, farms+3, farms+4}

the condition:
Condition SettlementBuildingFinished >= farms

means any of the 5 buildings fulfill the condition (the level of each farm is larger than the level of 'farms', the first building mentioned in this group).

In the group:
{sewers, baths, aqueduct, city_plumbing}

the condition:
and SettlementBuildingExists >= city_plumbing

means only city_plumbing fullfills it. Hence the larger than sign (>) applies to buildings within the same group, but not to those outside (farms have nothing to do with city_plumbing, so they can never be larger than or equal to them).

Raijer
04-20-2005, 18:48
Of course, time spent in the field is breeding time wasted: on balance, an idle general is better off returning to town for some marital nookie.

I have a quick question regarding this. Is it enough for a general to simply be in any town, or must he be in a specific town, i.e. the town where is wife is located? Can I just assume that a general's wife resides in any town he happens to be in?

Aesculapius
04-21-2005, 08:58
Wow - thanks for all the interest! In particular, thanks sunsmountain for your corrections and clarifications. I'm currently away on holiday, so cannot check your data firsthand, but you've obviously done the research so I'm sure you're right. In particular, I had thought 'disillusioned' was yellow-face, not blue-face, so you've already put me right on that. Once I get home and doublecheck everything, I'll edit accordingly.



Originally posted by Raijer

I have a quick question regarding this. Is it enough for a general to simply be in any town, or must he be in a specific town, i.e. the town where is wife is located? Can I just assume that a general's wife resides in any town he happens to be in?

As far as I can see, the general's wife is automatically in whichever town he is in. (Can you imagine what a hassle it would be otherwise? You could be wandering from province to province, trying to find the wife that you left behind somewhere before you started your latest campaign of conquest!!)



Originally posted by MajorFreak

does that include sewers and stuff? i'm assuming it does...please clarify the benefits to this stuff, because i'm getting leary of using it in places i have governors.

Nope - as sunsmountain said, it only applies to the city sewers - lower levels of plumbing are quite benign. Now we know why Western civilisation's going to pot - it's the corrupting influence of sewers........ :questiong:


Originally posted by MajorFreak

now then, my question is this: how do i get a certain infertile line of my family to start popping out adoptees? and how do i check who's adopting?

Sorry Major, sah - no idea. I don't know how RTW assigns adoptees to specific sponsors. Anyone else know anything? As for "who's adopting" - well, when the adoption screen pops up, it states at the top who the sponsor is. If you wish, you can look them up on your family tree before deciding whether or not to accept the adoption.


Ahmose: very interesting post. I can't say I've ever noticed something like this happening with Marriage, and I don't recall seeing anything in the triggers that would explain it (can't check at present, as I'm away from my computer). But I'll keep a close eye out, and let you know if I find the same.

Raijer
04-22-2005, 04:35
As far as I can see, the general's wife is automatically in whichever town he is in. (Can you imagine what a hassle it would be otherwise? You could be wandering from province to province, trying to find the wife that you left behind somewhere before you started your latest campaign of conquest!!)

Thanks! That's precisely what I was afraid of, regardless of the, uh... romantic element it might have added to my game - Ulysses returning home to Penelope and all that...

unseen11
04-22-2005, 15:56
Awesome guide, just one question, what bad traits do you get if you build the city plumbing building or Theatre?

Is it safe to assume building the first theatre (odeion or something) is safe?

sunsmountain
04-28-2005, 00:39
In particular, I had thought 'disillusioned' was yellow-face, not blue-face, so you've already put me right on that. Once I get home and doublecheck everything, I'll edit accordingly.[/quote

Cheers, looking forward to it.


[QUOTE]Thanks! That's precisely what I was afraid of, regardless of the, uh... romantic element it might have added to my game - Ulysses returning home to Penelope and all that...

:love: :guitarist: :laugh4:



now then, my question is this: how do i get a certain infertile line of my family to start popping out adoptees? and how do i check who's adopting?

Get him to a temple of fertility*! (duh) I'm not sure what increases the chance of marriage, but marriage itself can both promote fertility as well as infertility, 4% chance each. (no help there).

Otherwise you can get more sons for adoption by using captains to attack, instead of generals. If you win against the odds, you have a chance each battle your captain will become a new son. This is one fo the most surefire ways to get family, and ideal when your family tree gets bugged (no new births), it happens occasionally.

*Ceres, Isis, Freyja. So that's for Julii, Egyptians and Germans only.

Aesculapius
05-01-2005, 06:23
I've now double-checked sunsmountain's criticisms (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=747148&postcount=21) and found them to be correct in every respect - so my Treatise has been edited to reflect the correct position. The only section that was affected was the one headed 'Build Wisely' in the chapter 'On Raising Good Governors'. I've also clarified information on the Temples of Love and of Trade in the section above.

The problem arose because I'd misinterpreted the condition called 'SettlementBuildingFinished' in the file export_descr_character_traits.txt - I thought it referred to whether the building had ever been finished in the settlement (which would actually make it the same as SettlementBuildingExists). In fact it refers only to the building that has just been completed. This post (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=703881&postcount=11) makes it clear, as well as explaining in a bit more detail how trait changes are triggered.


Just to clarify one area:



Because of no going back its good strategy to have every governor build:
- 3 farms
- mines when necessary (destroy and rebuild once)
- 4 traders or 2,5 ports or 2,5 roads (or 1 trader and 1 ports and 1 roads)
to get into the safe zone.


This strategy will not get you into the positive 'no going back' zone (except in the case of mines), as it takes 24 points to reach the 'no going back' levels for 'Good Farmer' and 48 for 'Good Trader'. This strategy will, however, provide enough 'credit' to prevent you reaching the 'no going back' levels of the bad traits. Exception: bear in mind that 'Good Trader' points cannot be guaranteed - you have only a 50-80% chance of getting them when completing 'trader', 'road' or 'port'-type buildings.







now then, my question is this: how do i get a certain infertile line of my family to start popping out adoptees? and how do i check who's adopting?


Get him to a temple of fertility*! (duh)


Temples of Fertility won't increase your chance of acquiring adoptees, only of acquiring children. I have yet to discover how adoptees are assigned. It's a small nitpick, and I feel churlish correcting someone who has done me such a great service - hat off to you, sunsmountain!

sunsmountain
05-03-2005, 09:54
I had the same misunderstandings with those triggers, only after browsing a good deal on these forums, did I find helpful insights here and there, which i'm happy to share.


This strategy will, however, provide enough 'credit' to prevent you reaching the 'no going back' levels of the bad traits.
Exactly what i had in mind: since most of my governors are not going to get enough points to get into the positive zone, i might just as well prevent them going into the negative.


Exception: bear in mind that 'Good Trader' points cannot be guaranteed - you have only a 50-80% chance of getting them when completing 'trader', 'road' or 'port'-type buildings.
True. The number of buildings i advise to build will get you the correct level to prevent the negative level on average, and trader is indeed a bit of an exception compared to farmer and miner.

To further complicate matters, sometimes governors have already acquired some + or - points in trader/miner/farmer when they come of age. Luckily, in the case of trader and farmer, you'll immediately notice this, since they already show up as negative traits at -1 point level. However, if your character doesnt pick up Good Miner after building 2 mines, build 2 more!



Temples of Fertility won't increase your chance of acquiring adoptees, only of acquiring children. I have yet to discover how adoptees are assigned. It's a small nitpick, and I feel churlish correcting someone who has done me such a great service - hat off to you, sunsmountain!
Oh, i misread the initial question, he asked about adoptees. As far as those are concerned, the only tip i have is the one i gave: Fight with your captains against the odds.

Thanks, and thank you for sharing this guide for good governing. May all our Governors become Jedi's (well..) :book: ~:)

Aesculapius
09-28-2005, 00:59
I've updated the Treatise to include a table of 'Top 21 Ancillaries' - Top 21 for Governors, Top 21 for Generals, Top 21 overall, and Top 21 to get rid of! Also mentioned the concept of using 'useless' characters for transferring retinue - the Garbage Collector or the Travelling Salesman.

teja
10-14-2005, 20:19
@Aesculapius:

Your work really rocks! Thanks for all the infos:bow:

littlelostboy
10-25-2005, 11:02
Wow, that was one of the most informative, helpful and detailed post I've ever read.

Cheers! ~:cheers:

Avicenna
02-26-2006, 17:09
Thanks for that! So are things such as 'Mathematical Expert' and 'Intelligent' usually reliant on passing down by fathers? So would this mean that with a low chance of passing traits on, the family will undoubtedly decline over time?

Aesculapius
02-27-2006, 08:16
Thanks Tiberius! Well for those two examples, no: neither "Intelligent" nor "Mathematical Expert" have any hereditary component to them - both have a random chance of being assigned at coming of age or adoption.

Several other characteristics CAN be inherited though. These are:

- Aesthetic (15%)
- Austere (5%)
- Black bile (5%)
- Blood (5%)
- Corrupt (15%)
- Drink (30 - 66%, depending on how bad Dad's drink problem is)
- Epicurean (25%)
- Expensive Tastes (25%)
- Games Fan (25%)
- Games Hater (10%)
- Generous (10%)
- Girls (20%)
- Handsome (50 - 95%, depending on what a looker Dad is)
- Hates X (25%)
- Inbred (50 - 98%, depending on how incestuous your ancestors have been)
- Infertile (75 - 87.5%; stands to reason............)
- Kind Ruler (50%)
- Miserly (25%)
- Natural Military Skill (30%)
- Paranoia (20%)
- Perverted (20%)
- Phlegm (5%)
- Politics Skill (20%)
- Pragmatic (20%)
- Prim (20%)
- Public Atheism (20%)
- Public Faith (20%)
- Races Fan (25%)
- Rhetoric Skill (20%)
- Slothful (20%)
- Smooth Talker (20%)
- Stoic (20%)
- Strategic Skill (20%)
- Superstitious (20%)
- Tactical Skill (20%)
- Ugly (50 - 95%, depending on how revolting Dad looks)
- Upright (20%)
- Xenophilia (20%)
- Xenophobia (20%)
- Yellow Bile (5%)

Of these traits, all can be gained in other ways. However, for some of them, the only other way to gain them is by a 1-2% chance at coming of age (or by self-reinforcement); those traits, which will therefore probably die out if not inherited, are marked in bold above.

By the way, all of this applies to the original R:TW with Patch 2. No idea how or if any of this has changed with BI.

P.S. I see my tables, which once displayed so nicely, are all haywire now - not sure whether this is a temporary or permanent problem with tags. If permanent, I guess I may have to go back and redo them as images.....

GrandInquisitor
03-03-2006, 06:32
i know the guide says that academies don't have an effect on traits, but from my observations, my characters spending a lot of time in a city with one (more often the scriptorium and ludus magna) tend to develop good political traits (like oratory and such). and not all of their forefathers had these abilities, in two instances, the fathers were actually tedious speakers. is this just coincidental?

Avicenna
03-03-2006, 09:15
Gandinquisitor: apart from inheriting traits, there is also the chance of inheriting an antitrait, eg. if your father is a total drunk you might be 'sober' at birth. Did the oratory trait develop after being 16? (ie he wasn't oratory before coming of age) If that's the case, traits may actually develop in the academies..

Aesculapius
03-03-2006, 12:14
Oh most terrifying Grand Inquisitor (may you live forever!):

What version/patch/mods are you playing? This guide was written as of 'vanilla' (unmodded) RTW Patch 2, and I am 100% certain that in this version no traits arise from the academies - only ancillaries. Certain mods (for example Player1's Bug-fixer) have assigned new trait triggers arising from the academies. Also, I have no idea whether BI generates traits from the academies (my BI is still sitting in its box unplayed! One day...........).

Tiberius' point is true in principle; however, none of the 'speechifying' traits are inherited as anti-traits. Which makes sense: I can understand how having a drunkard for a father could put you off a brew for life, but having a bore for a father is unlikely to make you eloquent........

GrandInquisitor
03-03-2006, 19:32
oh...i forgot about the patch version. mine's unmodded 1.05. i forgot about that bit. if that doesn't make a difference, as a rule i forgot to mention that my general's in the field become boring speakers, vs. those who stay at the academies that become much better political traits

Avicenna
03-04-2006, 15:36
Strange, it's usually the great commanding generals who get inspiring speaker trait. Unless of course they're mainly losing or just standing around barbarian lands doing nothing.

Aesculapius
03-05-2006, 08:58
There are lots of different types of eloquence in RTW. They are:

INSPIRING SPEAKER
Levels: Outstanding speaker / Great orator / Famous orator
Triggers: Adoption (9%) / Comes of age (4%) / Father has Rhetoric Skill (20%) / Father is Smooth Talker (20%) / Wins battle (4%)

RHETORIC SKILL
Levels: Fluent speaker / Skilled debater / Rhetorical expert
Triggers: Comes of Age (6%) / Father has Rhetoric Skill (20%)

SMOOTH TALKER
Levels: Plausible / Slick / Smooth Talker
Triggers: Comes of Age (2%) / Father is Smooth Talker (20%)

So as you can see, being a good speaker is largely a matter of luck, genes and/or military success. Although a 4% chance after a victory might seem small, you can win many battles in your career, whereas you only come of age once and have one father!

Avicenna
03-05-2006, 17:27
Could one character have all three traits to make an incredibly influential character? Or can you only have one of the three?

Mithras
03-18-2006, 12:45
I was wondering how barbarian invasion differs in traits and breeding governors. Your guide has been very useful for the origional. The christian shrines and loyalty issues are hust begging to be expanded on.

Aesculapius
03-19-2006, 08:59
Hmmm. I bought BI about three months ago, and have yet to take it out of its box. With a new job in a new country (and of course a new house) my gaming time has been severely curtailed..........

I shall certainly put the matter 'in the queue', but no promises on when I can deliver!

Avicenna
03-19-2006, 10:49
Left NZ Aesculapius? Hope you have a nice time wherever you are.

player1
03-28-2006, 11:53
Also, I have no idea whether BI generates traits from the academies (my BI is still sitting in its box unplayed! One day...........).

BI, as well as RTW patched to 1.5 gives traits from academies.

Barbarossa1221
04-02-2006, 07:12
I didnt even know you could trade members of the royal entourage!:dizzy2:
I hope this gets preserved because you put a lot of good time into it and it shows in the quality.
I'm going to spend some time reading it now since it is so dense!
Good job!~:thumb:

Aeneas
04-20-2006, 13:31
The Guide is indeed excellent for RTW, but it seems to me that some of the rules have changed with BI. I have a hard time breeding good governors and the generals command stars is as ellusive as "The evil mother in law"-ancillary was in my RTW games (one i never was able to get).

I have read somewhere that you can train generals that is not family members but have not found out how to do this? Any ideas?

In my first BI campaign (ERE) i try to haul up som bad traits chars in capital with faction leader and various buildings (cathedrals/academys)... i will try to monitor any progress (hope they convert from pagans to christians after a while).

Mithras
04-21-2006, 17:59
The Guide is indeed excellent for RTW, but it seems to me that some of the rules have changed with BI. I have a hard time breeding good governors and the generals command stars is as ellusive as "The evil mother in law"-ancillary was in my RTW games (one i never was able to get).


Yeah it's deliberate their is also a link between loyaty and skill as a general.
It's partly to make the game harder by making sure that you can't rely on general juggerkill to squash to the oncoming horde with his 4 legionares and an 3 legged donkey



I have read somewhere that you can train generals that is not family members but have not found out how to do this? Any ideas?

The highest stable in any faction will allow you to create bodyguard units which come with a general, it should noted they can't lead factions.




In my first BI campaign (ERE) i try to haul up som bad traits chars in capital with faction leader and various buildings (cathedrals/academys)... i will try to monitor any progress (hope they convert from pagans to christians after a while).

No they will not convert under any circumstances they'll just pick up negative traits by the truckload (hates christianity, has doubts about paganism) and vice versa for christians, you'll also probably cause social unrest in your capital by having that many pagans in one place through their conversion influence. Once a character reaches coming of age nothing you do will affect his religion. Prior to this who your emperor is and the overall religious demographic of the factions seems to affect your religion.

vonsch
04-27-2006, 14:58
The highest stable in any faction will allow you to create bodyguard units which come with a general, it should noted they can't lead factions.

(this is about my BI experience)

I just did this for the first time in my current (about to be given up on, I suspect) Sarmation campaign. The general is definitely not of the family line, but I suspect they tend to get 1-2 command stars which makes them pretty useful in leading armires, leaving family members for governors.

The open question (for me) is whether they can "man of the hour" and be adopted. I don't see why they cannot, and it's even lilkely to happen (if possible) since they are probably going to be fighting a lot. I've been wondering how to pull off successful conversion and this may add possibilities...


No they will not convert under any circumstances they'll just pick up negative traits by the truckload (hates christianity, has doubts about paganism) and vice versa for christians, you'll also probably cause social unrest in your capital by having that many pagans in one place through their conversion influence. Once a character reaches coming of age nothing you do will affect his religion. Prior to this who your emperor is and the overall religious demographic of the factions seems to affect your religion.

Maybe training these "made" generals in captured cities with the target religion's buildings will produce (or give higher odds of producing) followers of that religion. Then with man of the hour they could be adopted and made "heir." Fathers of a given religion seem to always produce sons of the same religion, and that appears to hold true for adoptees too (from my cursory study of the files), so there's no easy way to breed another religion into a line that I can see so far. But this might work.

I think I'll capture a Christian city and give it a try.

gardibolt
05-02-2006, 16:49
I think MOTH can only apply to captains, not generals.

Bulawayo
05-03-2006, 13:25
I don't know if it has been written anything about the number of men in the Generals unit. I have myself been wondering about what decides the number, and so far I have come the conclusion that it mostly depends on personal security. It makes sense that more bodyguards would give better security. For example I once met a normal family member in combat who had 38 bodyguards (24 is normal on large setting), and he had +6 in personal security, while a negative number has given me only 17 bodyguards for one of my own generals.

I guess there are more factors involved in determining the exact number, but so far I don't know which those are. Anyway, for generals I am sending out in combat I always try to give them some more personal security, like giving them a wrestler or something else, since more bodyguards make a stronger unit. :2thumbsup:



Edit: After having written this I found a Ludus Magna thread (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=47146) that explains the case much better. Sorry for that.

Hepcat
07-24-2006, 08:35
Thanks a lot, a very useful topic ~:cheers:

Guyus Germanicus
08-29-2006, 18:42
Sunsmountain,

On getting new adoptees: I've actually gotten adoptees where my captains fought with 'even odds' or slightly better. I used to believe you had to fight against odds, but now I think RTW has some kind of formula based on the number of faction members vs the number of cities your faction controls on the board that determines when you get an offer to adopt. If you fall below a certain proportion of family members vs cities, you start getting adoptees offered to you. And, I'm not even sure that I'm right about that rule either. The game's adoptee rule I find a bit mystifying. I've done no measuring. Perhaps I should play a game from scratch and then monitor the number of faction members vs. the number of cities I control.

I guess the safest conclusion is that CA designed the game with a fascinating amount of sophistication.

Empirate
08-29-2006, 20:35
GG,
this "fascinating amount of sophistication" has more than once left me wondering if anything in this game was not random...
Let's say sophistication can easily make a complex system seem erratic, even chaotic. Since 1.5 I can't seem to get my diplomats to do me any good whatsoever. And every time I try, they pick up bad traits (not very courteous, or whatsitsname, being a prime suspect) from failing, just because the AI doesn't allow anything it doesn't come up with itself.
The same seems to hold true for governor traits. I usually don't rely on governor training anymore - it's too much micro work and doesn't pay off enough. If I can conquer 40 provinces in 60 turns with only fools for governors, while my generals turn into heroes on the battlefield because I fight so much and so hard, I can skip caring about governors.

I don't want to sound destructive of the fantastic work done by Aesculapius, Sunsmountains and others. I just think that these "soft" parts of the game - governing, diplomacy etc. - could have been made better by streamlining. Where there're so many variables in an equation, it's virtually impossible for a player of the game to actually see results in a simple, yet satisfying cause-and-effect-chain.

Guyus Germanicus
08-30-2006, 07:08
I understand your point, Empi, about governors. I don't tend to design my building strategy around grooming governors either. I tend to build what appears to be the military, economic or public order necessity of the moment. I find that I tend to avoid building too many farms, which means my governors are almost always developing 'poor farmer' traits. If my faction member has stars, I immediately post him with an army and start giving him combat experiences to groom him for command. The stars and influence laurel wreaths that he earns in campaigning will give him some advantage in governing from a public order standpoint, which is usually enough to suit me. It all depends on my priority of the moment. But, it is good to know what choices and what buildings influence the various traits that a governor acquires. So I've found Aesculapius's work extremely useful for the background info he provides, as I'm sure you agree. I have reassigned faction members to other postings when they seemed to be starting to acquire bad traits from a city post with say, a temple of Bacchus. I do remember literally saving the career of a young Julii faction member by reassigning him to a different city after he started developing a drinking problem. He actually turned out all right after the change of posting and lost the bad trait.

There are definitely limits to how much micro-managing one can do when the game starts getting involved and you have 30 cities and 25-50 faction members to manage. I just can't keep track of everything after a while.

I haven't really noticed the diplomat issue you mentioned. But, I've only played RTW under 1.4 and 1.5, so I have no other prior experience to contrast it with. I've always felt that the diplomatic choices in RTW are extremely limited, and in some cases a bit nonsensical. In one sense they are too predictable. You will never keep an ally through an entire game. It's guaranteed that whatever faction you ally yourself with, they will eventually stab you in the back. I suppose up to a point that's true to life. But if I treat an ally with respect and give them lots of money gifts, you would think that they would find that beneficial enough and of sufficient good faith that they wouldn't want to stab you in the back. But the game doesn't work that way. Oh well . . . C'est la vie. I've literally come to the rescue of some allies who were besieged by an enemy. They joined me in the combat. We whooped up on the enemy and won the day. Then two turns later, the faction I rescued attacks me. Go figure. :inquisitive:

The faction I've been able to do my best governor training with has been the Julii, for some strange reason. With the Seleucids, I usually have Alexander from Sardis on patrol immediately, buying up mercenaries and preparing to defend the west end of the empire from Pontus and Greece. Demetrius in Damascus, I have buying up mercs for the eventual attack by Egypt. With Carthage, Theages in Lilybaeum, and Theodokles (sp) from Palma, are almost worthless as combat generals. But Theages can become a great governor. I just finished a Carthage game. He ended with about 6 pillars and 5 laurel leaves, was my faction leader, and was known as Theages the Killer because I recruited lots of assassins. He managed Carthage well. But I can't say I planned my management of Carthage for his benefit.

As a general rule, if my faction member has laurel wreaths and/or management pillars, I will groom him for management. Then I pay some attention to the building priorities for his sake. But if he's got stars, he's going to be campaiging for the most part until he captures that big city that requires his administrative attention. I won't keep him there unless he's close to retirement age. :) If my faction member has no good character traits at all to start with, he's cavalry fodder. I may try him at a couple different jobs to see if he will develop. If not, it's off to the front. I can always use him to police rebel bands.

Not all your experts - spies, assassins, diplomats - are going to be good at their job. And that's true to life in many ways. Sometimes they will develop if given the right opportunities. I've trained some good assassins. But some characters, be it diplomats, assassins or governors, will never become good at anything. Like Theodokles of Palma, for Carthage. He's never developed into a star for me in any game. So I use him to babysit a city and pray that he doesn't breed too many offspring. :)

blahdeblahdeblah I talk too much. :dizzy2:

Regards,
Guyus

ezrider
08-30-2006, 09:56
I agree with Empirate on this one. I have left any family member with a single management point in cities to rot and in some campaigns it went badly but now with seleucia, I have a ton of money coming in and my govenors aren't corrupt, but instead I have a guy with the highest management rating I have ever seen.
I don't know why this happened. My diplomats have walked all the way from Susa to Spain and haven't become anymore adept at squeezing money from people or getting the romans to ally with me.

in relation to adoptees and M.O.T.H's, For Seleucia, I have produced about 6 altogether, and I'm not that far into the game. For carthage it was the same, I did have a lot of offspring but my Captains were regularly beating bigger armies easily so I had good generals popping up all over the place.

**** - > GG

I do remember literally saving the career of a young Julii faction member by reassigning him to a different city after he started developing a drinking problem.
That hilarious. Fair enough, If i ever developed a drinking problem I'd like an intervention as well.

Severous
08-30-2006, 20:38
Hi

I receive 'Man of the Hours' regulary. Have expanded fast. The game gives me MotH irrespective of the odds whenever a captain leads and wins an open field battle.

For the last two turns Ive also received an adoption at the end of the turn.

I think its the game mechanics trying to restore some form of balance between leaders and regions.

For 'Clear Victories' MotH is typically age 20 and 2* command.
For Heroic its often age 20 and 4*

Guyus Germanicus
08-31-2006, 00:38
Thanks Severous!

Your experience resonates with me as to what I've seen in my own games. I love Man-of-the-Hour promos! I have this psychological quirk of compassion for the orphan outsider-whose-given-an-opportunity-by-a-patron to make it in the established family.

EZ - (on rescuing drunken faction members)

Yeah, I had this Julii youngster posted in Patavium where there was a Bacchus temple. He started out as a social drinker and just went down hill like a meteor shot. I moved him to Mediolanum, but the temple was the same. (Back in my early days with RTW I was always taking Victoria's advice on what temples to build. Now I'm more chosey. I will still build the Bacchus line of temples but usually only in cities that I don't intend to assign a governor on a permanent basis, opting for Jupiter instead.) Finally, I sent the youngster to Caralis where there was a Jupiter temple. I guess because he was a youngster, he had time to reform. Aesculapius has talked about that in one of his posts, I believe. I was greatly relieved. I also gave him some combat experiences to get him out of a city and on the move. Whatever, . . . it worked.

On money corruption, I believe it was Aesculapius that explained how money starts its serious corruption process after you reach a balance of 50,000 denarii. The AI tests for applying corruption at increasing higher pecentages of probability for every 50,000+ denarii threshold you pass in your cash balance. So, if your balance stays below the 50,000 denarii you reduce the likelihood of corruption. If you pass the 150,000 or 200,000 mark, the chances of corruption 'treble'. I've heard that temples that produce public order due to law benefits are supposed to have a reducing impact on the money corruption issue. Don't know if that's true or not. If you have bug fixer or you made the code change manually, your academies will also produce public order due to law benefits, which would further this positive affect.

On diplomats - it might be that some of your diplomats' lack of success are due to the laurel wreath influence of the AI faction member you're talking to. Hence, your eloquent/tactful 5 laurel wreath diplomat is still going to have a problem convincing an intransigent 7 laurel wreath governor. But, again, I don't have any experience playing RTW under the early releases. Just 1.4 and 1.5. Definitely, the diplomacy part of RTW is one of the weaker, 'less sophisticated' aspects of the game. :) I love that bizarre diplomatic exchange I get occasionally where the AI diplomat offers me "Accept or we will attack" and demands "Please do not attack." So, I press the counter offer "cease fire." And the AI responds, "We see no reason to stop the war." :dizzy2: Say, what? Yes, RTW diplomacy is farcical at times. Still, I love this game!! :bounce:

I am very stingy about producing diplomats in the early going. I usually recruit only three. One to go east, one to go west and one to stay close to home. When I start accummulating empire and cash I will recruit more. In my just completed Carthage game, in the last 5-6 turns, my diplomat bribed two huge Egyptian armies out of existance, two Egyptian faction members into my fold, and bribed away Siwa. (I was making huge profits in sea trade, so I had lots of cash. Ba'al be praised.) :) Made taking Memphis, Alexandria and Thebes a whole lot easier. In my early RTW games, I used to sell map information all the time. Now I only sell map information when the AI faction won't trade me straight up or unless I'm hard pressed for cash.

regards, guyus

Ahab
12-09-2006, 16:10
Originally posted by MajorFreak

now then, my question is this: how do i get a certain infertile line of my family to start popping out adoptees?

~:eek: i noticed in one of my campaigns a infertile general started having children all i could put this down to was that he was situated in a settlemen
with a general who had the trait of sleeping around.

Captain Pugwash
02-25-2007, 16:58
Excellant work very useful.

A few querries.

Often it just takes a winning battle to accumulate your first star and possibly an ancillary. However is there some sort of progressive formular to acquire further stars? ie Two seperate victories for you second star, three for the third etc I ask is that my seven star general and totally destroyed roman armies in three to four turns (one was three battles in the same go as repeatedly attacked ) They where fully stacked and odds against winning. He didnt get a thing. The ancillary box was full with bodyguards, morale boosters etc to maximise battle chances but I was expecting some trait to reflect his victories. How come.

To boost you management skills can you destroy some finance building and then rebuild it?. Some of my generals just do not seen to be able to develope squares.

ta

Hasdrubal
03-13-2007, 18:24
Captain Pugwash:

Once you've gotten your generals up to a certain level, it takes bigger events to gain stars, like taking enemy capitals and wonders.

Try building an academy or equivalent building in your cities. Your governors will soon accumulate wise councillors to aid them in managing the city.

bugrit
03-17-2007, 01:56
I am playing RTR:PE, which is a based on R:TW 1v5.

I am a d. millionnaire in my current campaign so I keep all of my family members out in the field to avoid picking up any more bad traits. The family birthrate seems not to be affected much by having all the males away on business.

What does seem to affect birthrate, however, is the rate at which I expand my empire. I'm eighty years into the campaign and expansion habitually seems to proceed in stops and starts with not much happening for several years and then a sudden flurry of activity. Birthrate seems to follow suit but, more so, so do marriage proposals and Man of the Hour events.

Like others, I have a strong suspicion that the game has a built-in mechanism for keeping the empire's city and male family member counts in some sort of balance.

ChuggtheSquirrel
03-19-2007, 10:27
My opinion is to put any extra generals you have on a cheap ship, sail them out into the ocean, and disband the ship. :laugh4: They just cost too much.

Seamus Fermanagh
03-20-2007, 00:38
My opinion is to put any extra generals you have on a cheap ship, sail them out into the ocean, and disband the ship. :laugh4: They just cost too much.

:laugh4:

Sadly, I think it prevents you from disbanding outside a port. Pity, as your solution has some elegance -- load up the "dangerously mad" "drunkard"'s entourage with the Mother-in-law, the slubberdegullion, the overseer, a pet hunting dog, and the tender of the royal arse and simply pull the plug on 'em!

ChuggtheSquirrel
03-20-2007, 05:13
:laugh4:

Sadly, I think it prevents you from disbanding outside a port. Pity, as your solution has some elegance -- load up the "dangerously mad" "drunkard"'s entourage with the Mother-in-law, the slubberdegullion, the overseer, a pet hunting dog, and the tender of the royal arse and simply pull the plug on 'em!

You can't? :shocked: But what if you disband inside a port, would they drown?

bugrit
03-21-2007, 18:30
No, the buggers can walk on water, at least as far as dry land, anyway.:wall:

ChuggtheSquirrel
03-23-2007, 04:00
No, the buggers can walk on water, at least as far as dry land, anyway.:wall:

What if your enemy has an army on the port so there's no place to disembark? :wink:

Boyar Karhunkynsi
03-23-2007, 07:31
There's always a few born-useless generals you get. They never seem to accumulate good talents or ancillaries, no matter what I do with 'em. One of mine conquered the whole of Anatolia and didn't come up with anything good out of it. He had to go. :hanged:

Man-of-the-hour generals seem to be consistently good, or at least reasonable, and fairly young. I adopt just about every decent one I can, and fight everywhere I can with small numbers. You end up expanding in all directions, rather than heading on a single warpath (Which is so terrible about playing as Julii).

Regards,
Max

ChuggtheSquirrel
03-24-2007, 03:57
One of mine conquered the whole of Anatolia and didn't come up with anything good out of it. He had to go. :hanged:

How did you get rid of him? *evil grin*

Seamus Fermanagh
03-24-2007, 04:16
I used to send the "unhinged loons" off on long trips to interesting corners of the map. Once had a Scipii chappie who I shipped to Syria. He recruited a war elephant -- I'd found none near Carthago -- and then rode North. By the time he made it back to the Peleponese (my territory in that game) he'd acquired a full stack of horse archers (Gotta love HA with Gold sword and Silver Shield from the greek temples), Sarmatians, and Bastarnae. Let me set up some interesting armies for my Scip strike teams.

Another time, as the Britons, I sent my shiled biting nutjob son-in-law to the Northern Parthian starter province. Ended up owning half the Caspian. Interesting mix to put Sarmatians in trail of Brit Heavy chariots -- and the Heavy chariots were rather brutal to the horse archers and hillmen the Parthians sent up to fight.:devilish:

YENKO
03-28-2007, 18:47
Hallo, Forum!! :)

I too used to embark my useless generals on a ship and make the BIREME (lol) attack an enemy stack/fleet. Most of the time he would sink, but sometimes he manages to flee. Boring. Now, instead, i prefer to actually make some use of that general's cavalry unit in the battlefield. Useful for diverting some nasty enemy unit before the clash, or to charge down some missile unit, or why not, the enemy's general unit itself. True, once my kamikaze-general dies, my troops get a morale hit, but, oh well, there is still my REAL general very much alive. At least, i secured a proper heroic soldier's death to the crazy git. Suits my RTW philosophy well i guess he he..

Have fun,

Y.

Magister Militum Titus Pullo
11-05-2007, 13:22
I've noticed that since I started recruiting generals in either of the two Roman Empires, some of my family members begin to either turn rebel, or become bandits. Now its one thing if it was a junior family member occupying a relatively insignificant position, but it frustrates me that family member turns out to be none other than that factions own Emperor. I mean his side is winning the war, he rules over vast territories and has thousands of troops under his command, only to senselessly turn renegade against his own subjects. What on earth is all that about?

I do like the idea of of recruitable generals, like having governor for rebellion-prone city, a commander for every army. But when comes to the Roman factions, I believe their over-abundance is compelling key family members into rebellion.

Patroclus
11-06-2007, 12:08
My opinion is to put any extra generals you have on a cheap ship, sail them out into the ocean, and disband the ship. :laugh4: They just cost too much.

Hahaha! Almost Neronian in it's fiendishness! :D

Personally, I just use mad bad and dangerous to know types as cavalry fodder in battles; sending them into the particularly difficult, line-cracking uphill charges seems to be a good idea.

Quintus.JC
01-07-2008, 16:31
Aesculapius sure done his homework.
personally i don't concentrate too much on breeding super genearls or governors. although it's nice to have them. i find academy and it's upgrades might helpful to increase an family members' traits and it's normally the first thing i build in a city.

Quintus.JC
01-07-2008, 16:35
using unwanted generals in a sucidal battle seems a good idea. if they pass the test then maybe they can even gain traits.

Quintus.JC
01-07-2008, 16:38
Barbarian factions aren’t allowed to build academies. Does that put them in an disadvantage when training governors.

Quirinus
01-14-2008, 09:49
Yeah, I do that too. I just send my mad generals on one suicidal raid after the other, even after they become semi-decent, as insanity is hereditary. I also never keep them in cities. They're a good way of softening up armies a little before the main army advances to complete the job. This way, I get quite a bang for my buck-- I even had a 'Horribly Scarred' madman once. Not that he lasted very much longer after that. :D

Paradox
01-14-2008, 09:55
Yeah, I do that too. I just send my mad generals on one suicidal raid after the other, even after they become semi-decent, as insanity is hereditary. I also never keep them in cities. They're a good way of softening up armies a little before the main army advances to complete the job. This way, I get quite a bang for my buck-- I even had a 'Horribly Scarred' madman once. Not that he lasted very much longer after that. :D
:inquisitive:

You're lucky army betrayals are disabled in RTW. I never liked leaving major cities without good administrators.

Quirinus
01-14-2008, 09:59
Army betrayals? Meaning, the general defects to the other side? Bully! Now the mad general gets to hump their daughters and infect their gene pool. That would be even more fun to watch than sending a plague-infected spy to an enemy settlement. >:D

Paradox
01-14-2008, 10:11
They either become rebels or just desert you, which I've suffered many times due to my tyranny.:crowngrin:

bonzeben23
01-22-2008, 19:00
escellent guide, very well thought out and skilled and informatory writing.

Brusilov
01-27-2008, 15:42
Excellent guide. Well worth the read as it's part of the game that I've been ignoring.

Good Ship Chuckle
01-30-2008, 02:56
I have always found that in every campaign, no matter the faction, I can always crank out 3-4 generals with ten stars over the course of the game. I think everyone has the same experience.

My issue is that generals in Barbarian Invasion SUCK!!!. The most number of stars I have seen in BI, are six, and that was with the pre-made faction leader that the Sassanids have. In my Saxon game, having just one star was a blessing.:wall:

I think I know RTW well enough how to raise good generals, and yet in BI, I was put to shame. Anyone else noticed poorer generals in BI, compared to RTW?
:surrender2:

Quirinus
01-30-2008, 16:21
That was intentional, I think. They made it so that situations like what you described (having a ten-star every generation) would not happen often, which I don't mind at all. Even the vicinity of an eight-star would have been considered a legendary, exceptional commander, like, perhaps, Alexander was.

Even the minor changes in ancillaries were in that direction. Did you notice how the mercenary captain no longer gives +1 Command like it did in RTW?

Besides which, all the hordes running around meant that, if the old system of gaining stars were still in effect, there would be dozens of ten-stars rampaging across the map.

But I don't mind overmuch. I am not such a great player that I get ten-stars with such frequency, but anyhow I think it does illustrate the fact that by the time of BI, the period of Alexander and Caesar have passed. Or at least that's how I see it.

Good Ship Chuckle
01-31-2008, 22:02
You're probably right. CA is probably right in making worse generals in BI. But still, in BI, I miss the days when I could thrash other factions with my huge command generals. :)

ChuggtheSquirrel
02-01-2008, 00:52
In my game, I'm the Franks and every 30 years, a (nomad? when you lose all your cities...) faction comes stomping through and attacks my walled cities with usually 10 times as much troops as me, and far better units. :duel: I usually beat them off, losing half my troops, :skull: but I never see a single star for my efforts. :no: It's really annoying.

Good Ship Chuckle
02-01-2008, 02:37
I feel your pain, brother.:bigcry:

Quirinus
02-01-2008, 06:05
You're probably right. CA is probably right in making worse generals in BI. But still, in BI, I miss the days when I could thrash other factions with my huge command generals. :)
But then again there are night battles, which help A LOT. 'Noctophilic' gives +3 to Command when fighting at night, I think. Not to be trifled with.

The Wandering Scholar
02-01-2008, 17:42
But then again there are night battles, which help A LOT. 'Noctophilic' gives +3 to Command when fighting at night, I think. Not to be trifled with.

It is good that most mods enable night attacks without the need of BI :yes:

Good Ship Chuckle
02-04-2008, 18:15
But then again there are night battles, which help A LOT. 'Noctophilic' gives +3 to Command when fighting at night, I think. Not to be trifled with.

True, true. But to be honest, I would rather have straight up command, like "Superior Command" which gives you three command, whether its day or night.

Dancanman
08-15-2008, 00:46
wow, thats a really long, but really useful guide! thanks! :beam:

Motep
08-23-2008, 23:09
I doubt I will ever have enough time to read it all the way through, but what a useful read those chunks shall be!

Spongie
03-07-2009, 04:26
Rediscovered this amazing post :2thumbsup:

Going through my first RTW campaign at the moment (patched to the official v1.5 and then with player1's excellent work on top of that) and getting fed up with characters collecting relatively useless-for-governing retinue such as armourers, military engineers, mining engineers (don't need too many of those), gladiators, hunting dogs etc. so I've ended up finding a couple of cities in regions which don't have mines, and building the knowledge buildings (scriptorium, ludus magna) and temples - but not the foundry, siege engineer, amphitheatre/colosseum - and sending new family members there for a few turns to build up a collection of useful retinue.

And thus, the invention of university cities :idea2:

The relatively useless retinue for governors (armourers, military engineers, historians and so forth - mostly military) get passed onto my older family members who, once they reach 60 or thereabouts, become dedicated field generals. Not too worried if they die of old age as they're not taking a useful set of governing retinue with them :smash:

Samofrome
12-07-2009, 18:07
In order to trade ancillaries, characters need to be present in the same place. Open one character’s scroll; with the left mouse button, click and drag the ancillary from the scroll onto the unit card of the receiving character. Just imagine: you can give away your Evil Mother-in-Law! (All right, you can snigger this time). Certain ancillaries will refuse to serve in the same retinue as certain others (for example, a Crooked Judge will never travel with an Honest Man, and Pet Lions and Pet Hunting Dogs will no more get along than a Problem Mother with an Evil Mother-in-Law).


never knew that
thank you
I'll bare that in mind