What Is The #1 Contributing Factor That Leads To Muslim Terrorism?

[PanzerJaeger]

I think this is a very important question that needs to be answered if we ever hope to end this.

*Note, i will not make a "a mixture of all" option because this is simply asking what is the leading factor in terrorism.

[PanzerJaeger]

Ok i tried to think of any and all reasons ive heard as to why terrorism is so prevelent out of the middle east.

I had to go with the Muslim religion itself.

[Duke Malcolm]

It was a hard choice between the Muslim Religion, and the Arab Mentality, but since not all Muslim terrorists are Arabs, and all Arabs are not Muslims, I had to go with the Muslim religion.

No doubt some of the more left-handed folk will choose Christianity, or imperialsim...

[Papewaio]

How about cults ie Fundamentalist Religion.

After all the IRA are not Muslims are they?

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Arab mentallity

[sharrukin]

I think terrorism is essentially criminal activity given a makeover. The Bader-Meinhof gang, the Red Brigade, the IRA, Che Guevara or any of the numerous middle eastern terrorist groups are just groups of people who are unhappy and inclined to violence. Whether they get their inspiration from Catholic martyrdom or the mentality of Islamic Jihad is secondary. They are rarely the downtrodden, and many are what we would call yuppies. They use the various causes to gain a celebrity status and to express violent and anti-social behaviour. The celebrity status is key to this and we see the same sort of thing in school shootings and the cults that grows up around serial killers. If the society within which they operate, offer this status to those who conduct themselves this way, you will always find them crawlingout of the woodwork.

[PanzerJaeger]

How about cults ie Fundamentalist Religion.

After all the IRA are not Muslims are they?

Remember this thread is about Islamic Terrorism. :bow:

[Tribesman]

The number 1 contributing factor that leads to Muslim Terrorism is Muslim terrorists .

[Gawain of Orkeny]

The election of GWB not once but twice ~D

I think youve left out the number one reason though. At least this is what Muslims will tell you. The Number one reason is The creation of the state of Israel.

[PanzerJaeger]

The election of GWB not once but twice

Hah.

Israel is there.

[Tribesman]

I think youve left out the number one reason though. At least this is what Muslims will tell you. The Number one reason is The creation of the state of Israel.
How do you explain Muslim terrorism from before the creation of the state of Israel then ? Including Terrorist campaigns that are still ongoing today that predate the creation of Israel by decades .

[Devastatin Dave]

When the founder of your religion was a thief and a murderer to begin with, you don't have much hope in a peaceful coexistance with others that don't share your faith. Islam is the root from which this evil feeds.

[Beirut]

Goodness knows there are a plethora of reasons, but I think one big one is that the Muslims have always been treated either as uncivilized animals, or at the very least as less than civilized. And certainly as less than equal.

After a few centuries as being viewed and treated as barbarians, is it a surprise that some of them will act this way towards those they regard as their detractors?

[Devastatin Dave]

Goodness knows there are a plethora of reasons, but I think one big one is that the Muslims have always been treated either as uncivilized animals, or at the very least as less than civilized. And certainly as less than equal.

After a few centuries as being viewed and treated as barbarians, is it a surprise that some of them will act this way towards those they regard as their detractors?

Maybe if Muhamed did a little less sacking of cities, robbing caravans, and slaughtering anyone that did not proclaim him a prophet, then I might find a way to view Islam in a better light.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

but I think one big one is that the Muslims have always been treated either as uncivilized animals, or at the very least as less than civilized. And certainly as less than equal.

If the shoe fits wear it. Maybe they should act more civilized then. I would say they were treated like aninmals though nor do they deserve to be.


After a few centuries as being viewed and treated as barbarians, is it a surprise that some of them will act this way towards those they regard as their detractors?

I guess thats what the Celts had against the Romans. Im afraid compared to the west most arabs are barbarians. I believe they see us the same way.


Israel is there.

No its policies are. The creation itself is enough.


How do you explain Muslim terrorism from before the creation of the state of Israel then ? Including Terrorist campaigns that are still ongoing today that predate the creation of Israel by decades .

Dont ask me Im not a Muslim ~:)

[Goofball]

I had to vote "Gah" because there was no "DevDave" option...

w00t!

:charge:

[Devastatin Dave]

I had to vote "Gah" because there was no "DevDave" option...

w00t!

:charge:

~:cheers:

[AntiochusIII]

When the founder of your religion was a thief and a murderer to begin with, you don't have much hope in a peaceful coexistance with others that don't share your faith. Islam is the root from which this evil feeds.Wow, what a brave old man you are. Brave enough to inspires hatred in others that they'll try to kill you with...a suicide bomb.

Certainly I could recognize this as a truly hateful and racism statement.

Edit: I vote for Gah since there has never been a single greatest reason in anything. You can't possibly blame Israel alone, religions alone, or Goerge W. Bush alone.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Islam.

In the Arab regions they fervently believe, and then they see their Imans telling them to kill non-Muslims, they do it. They do not believe non Muslims are totally human (refering to Jews as 'pigs', 'dogs' etc.), thus lessening any innate moral hesitation of killing another human.


Goodness knows there are a plethora of reasons, but I think one big one is that the Muslims have always been treated either as uncivilized animals, or at the very least as less than civilized. And certainly as less than equal.

After a few centuries as being viewed and treated as barbarians, is it a surprise that some of them will act this way towards those they regard as their detractors?

The Native Americans were treated much worse, and they don't resort to terrorism. Nor do any of the other groups vilified by other peoples. The defining cause is Islam - and its glorification of killing non-muslims. By this I mean stating that any one killing the 'infidels' will go to paradise and have 72 virgins, and other such things.

Besides, I find it extremely unlikely that they would harbor such a grudge for so long, even after they had stopped being called barbarians.

Especially since the USA never went on any crusades, yet they hate us the most.

One of the reasons this fever-pitched hate has gne on for so long in the Middle East is the rulers there using the US as a scapegoat to take attention off their corrupt, authoritarian regimes.

Crazed Rabbit

[Devastatin Dave]

Wow, what a brave old man you are. Brave enough to inspires hatred in others that they'll try to kill you with...a suicide bomb.

Certainly I could recognize this as a truly hateful and racism statement.

Edit: I vote for Gah since there has never been a single greatest reason in anything. You can't possibly blame Israel alone, religions alone, or Goerge W. Bush alone.

How is it racism? Islam is a belief, much like Nazism, hinduism, or any other belief. Is being ignorant or stupid racist as well?

[Beirut]

The Native Americans were treated much worse, and they don't resort to terrorism. Nor do any of the other groups vilified by other peoples. The defining cause is Islam - and its glorification of killing non-muslims. By this I mean stating that any one killing the 'infidels' will go to paradise and have 72 virgins, and other such things.

Yeah, and look what happened to the Natives. Beaten and robbed until they practically don't even exist any more. Another hundred years and Native Americans will only exist in theme rides at Disney World.


Especially since the USA never went on any crusades, yet they hate us the most.

Excuse me? Shall we list the countries the US "crusaded" against? Would you like them alphabetically or chronologically?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Yeah, and look what happened to the Natives. Beaten and robbed until they practically don't even exist any more. Another hundred years and Native Americans will only exist in theme rides at Disney World.

Baloney their all getting rich. You may have to visit them at their Casino though ~:)

[Navaros]

i object to using the word "Terrorism" in this case

these Muslims are fighting in order to prevent their Holy Land from becoming desecrated by evil men. they are trying to stop their society from becoming an evil, disgusting, shameful, immoral cesspool like North America, Europe, UK, and most of the rest of the world is already

they do this because they believe in God and morality. them standing up for what is right is not terrorism

illegally invading Muslim nations, and trying force evil government systems down their throats, is terrorism

[AntiochusIII]

Baloney their all getting rich. You may have to visit them at their Casino though ~:)Well, you could argue that they were once the master of the lands that now makes up the USA. And now, they are literally slaves/caged and practically restricted by cultural reactions, at least (the cowboy stuff may've inspired some old "cowboy beats indians" things) and possibly legally, though I'm not sure.

Edit: MAJORITY of them, not all.

[AntiochusIII]

How is it racism? Islam is a belief, much like Nazism, hinduism, or any other belief. Is being ignorant or stupid racist as well?Christianity is also a belief, and I'm sure many people before our time interpreted Christianity as "you are the chosen people and others are sub-human, especially Jews and Muslims."

But some of you guys claim your universal rightfulness.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Well, you could argue that they were once the master of the lands that now makes up the USA. And now, they are literally slaves/caged and practically restricted by cultural reactions,

And you could make the arguement that they were once poor savages living in tents and dying of disease. Now they are living in houses and many are getting rich. Once more the US is far from the most guilty in this respect. The Spainish were much worse. The English have terrorised minorities all over the planet.

[Tachikaze]

After reading the posts here, it's no mystery why some Muslims attacked the US. Maybe "attitudes of conservative American computer game players" should be added to the choices.

If conservatives don't want to be labeled bigots, why do they persist on making bigoted, ignorant statements?

I'll bet Christians would win the competition hands-down in the number of people murdered and converted through force throughout the centuries.

The conservatives don't seem to realize that the vast majority of Muslims have never committed a single act of terrorism, just as the vast majority of Christians have never bombed an abortion clinic.

[Proletariat]

Thanks for sticking up for a culture that would stone me to death if I get raped, Tachi. Why don't you go live with them? Have you ever seen a beheading in Saudi?

[AntiochusIII]

Islam.

In the Arab regions they fervently believe, and then they see their Imans telling them to kill non-Muslims, they do it. They do not believe non Muslims are totally human (refering to Jews as 'pigs', 'dogs' etc.), thus lessening any innate moral hesitation of killing another human.Give me real facts please, not your image of Islam. After all, the Jews enjoyed considerable prosperity under Muslim rule everywhere during the Middle Ages, in which the Christian Europeans persecuted them. And this is not my word, actually, I read it from a history (NOT text) book completely concentrating on Spain, and not Muslim. So this statement at least comes naturally without actual strong bias.


The Native Americans were treated much worse, and they don't resort to terrorism. Nor do any of the other groups vilified by other peoples. The defining cause is Islam - and its glorification of killing non-muslims. By this I mean stating that any one killing the 'infidels' will go to paradise and have 72 virgins, and other such things.

Besides, I find it extremely unlikely that they would harbor such a grudge for so long, even after they had stopped being called barbarians.

Especially since the USA never went on any crusades, yet they hate us the most.

One of the reasons this fever-pitched hate has gne on for so long in the Middle East is the rulers there using the US as a scapegoat to take attention off their corrupt, authoritarian regimes.

Crazed RabbitYou are still calling them, though not directly, barbarians by this statement, and Dave is doing it also.

George W. Bush once declared he was going "to a crusade", of course, that political blunder has to fall upon his advisors who quickly came out to apologize. At least, that shows W.'s real attitude: crusade.

Oh, and the virgin stuff, most likely, happens either because of modern propaganda by extremist Muslim groups or because of the Middle Age crusades, a "holy war" on both views but on each other as evil infidels. Oh, and the "Christians" were the invaders.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

The conservatives don't seem to realize that the vast majority of Muslims have never committed a single act of terrorism, just as the vast majority of Christians have never bombed a abortion clinic.

Im sorry but I believe that many Muslms although not terrorists themselves back these peoples actions. If they were really serious about it the terrorists couldnt function among them. You dont see Christaians preaching for a new crusade.

[AntiochusIII]

And you could make the arguement that they were once poor savages living in tents and dying of disease. Now they are living in houses and many are getting rich. Once more the US is far from the most guilty in this respect. The Spainish were much worse. The English have terrorised minorities all over the planet.I have edited my post to be more specific after your post, sorry. However, I do not defend the Spanish nor the English in their imperialism, ages ago, but I do not blame them now. Also, be informed that I am not blaming the US for their pasts.

[AntiochusIII]

Any culture where I'd get stoned to death for being raped can get called barbarous all day. They're lower than animals.

Has anyone here witnessed a beheading in Saudi?If they've failed to develop from Middle Age practice because of various reasons that most are not their "fault", I would have to look back to the "Christian" Middle Ages...

-Witch? Burn!
-Muslim/Pagan? Infidels! Burn!
-Pagan (Medicine/Philosophy/Historical) books? Burn!
-Heretics? (are they?) Burn!
-God created classes for us! We can only be peasants!

Of course, the society has developed far from that and branched differently away. Oh, and I don't have anything personally against Jesus. His (centuries) later extremist bastard followers, sure.

[Devastatin Dave]

So Muhammed never killed anyone in the name of "Allah" right? Amazing that the most ignorant of people can consistantly preach that anyone that's conservative or pro western is ignorant.

[AntiochusIII]

So Muhammed never killed anyone in the name of "Allah" right? Amazing that the most ignorant of people can consistantly preach that anyone that's conservative or pro western is ignorant. You guys on the left couldn't find your ass hole with a mirror and a can of KY...Dave, another post with direct attack and I'll report it to the moderator. Your post is absolutely unacceptable in the way you present it. If all far-right people act this way, the world is finished for good.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

The Koran calls for Jihad. Can anyone show me where the New Testament calls for Crusades?

[GodsPetMonkey]

Islam.
In the Arab regions they fervently believe, and then they see their Imans telling them to kill non-Muslims, they do it. They do not believe non Muslims are totally human (refering to Jews as 'pigs', 'dogs' etc.), thus lessening any innate moral hesitation of killing another human.


No more so than the socially backwards (extremist) members of any other religion, and I mean ALL religions.
Always easy to make the guy you don't like look subhuman, age old trick. Add in a long history of fighting between the groups and it makes for an explosive result.
Religion is not the cause, it's the excuse.

Though its a bit of an 'all of the above' answer, I would say smart propaganda and recruiting methods on the part of the terrorist organisations, make them believe they are being oppressed, then send them in to die for your cause, another old trick, being used to fuel an unconventional means of warfare.

The main reason why they use terrorism is easy, these groups lack the resources and true support to wage conventional warfare, and terrorist tactics are designed to make you look like a much larger threat then you really are.
Make it look like a huge Muslim uprising is imminent, and those they target will move in to stop it, which helps make it look like they really are oppressing 'their' people, repeat as necessary.

[Proletariat]

No more so than the socially backwards (extremist) members of any other religion, and I mean ALL religions.



Right, forcing women to wear burqas and stoning rape victims is something any ole religion does, and you mean ALL religions. Sheesh. Keep drinking the moral relativism kool-aid.

[Devastatin Dave]

Right, forcing women to wear burqas and stoning rape victims is something any ole religion does, and you mean ALL religions. Sheesh. Keep drinking the moral relativism kool-aid.

So true..

[AntiochusIII]

The Koran calls for Jihad. Can anyone show me where the New Testament calls for Crusades?Jihad can always been intrepeted as the inner fighting, and it is more a response in the climate in which the religion was born: Muslim rises into the vacuum of the disunited desert lands to bring the various tribes together, then, with inner energy of a rising power unable to express domestically (or no apparent need to) sets out on the world. Of course, the early founding is filled with violent attacks from those who are against really early Islam, before the unification of Arabia. That affects the basic teachings of Islam as the religion serves as a uniting force that needs to call these fractured people together into war as one. Apart from that, Christiano-Judaism beliefs settled well in Arabia and influence early Islam greatly, creating the basics of the religion. Could I possibly argue that this branch (or way) of observing/intrepeting the "unexplainable" seems to create ego, pride, and especially strong religious conflicts compare to the older, more tolerant polytheistic (albeit pretty much useless) ones? I'm not exploring this seriously, however.

While Christianity is born under the climate of the complete impossibility of revolting against the Romans, thus, the afterlife is the only hope stuff. Influenced by Judaism, as well, and by Jesus' natural calm and "back down" attitude he seems to have, unlike Mohammed's more "strong" attitude (from the view of a "ruler"), basic principles of first Christianity is arguably very "back down" worldly but bold on other sides, like spirituality.

Of course, this is all viewed from a historical point of view.

[Devastatin Dave]

Dave, another post with direct attack and I'll report it to the moderator. Your post is absolutely unacceptable in the way you present it. If all far-right people act this way, the world is finished for good.

you've got to be kidding me. You called me an ignorant racist earlier and you're going to report me?!?!? If someones beliefs, whether it be Islam, Christianity, Nazism, etc gives them "justififaction" to murder their fellow man, then they are subhuman. My problem is that you've climbed on this moral relativism horse and won't accept the fact that the founder of Islam killed and stole from "infidels". When the founder of your beliefs does these things in the name of "god" then guess what, you have attached yourself to a violent belief system. If you are too ignorant to understand this, then thats your problem not mine...

[AntiochusIII]

Edited for the sake of peace.

Further edit: Dave, please, stop calling "your opponents" with names and insults.

[Devastatin Dave]

No...

[Proletariat]

What the hell?

:dizzy2:


*slowly backs away from the supposed pacificistic religious practitioner*

[Devastatin Dave]

Edited for the sake of peace.

Further edit: Dave, please, stop calling "your opponents" with names and insults.

huh?

[AntiochusIII]

huh?You are saying I'm ignorant, and something like:
You guys on the left couldn't find your ass hole with a mirror and a can of KY...This is really insulting to me, who views generalization as a very "bad" thing. However, let's move on to the debate.

Mohammed, in my opinion, is a "stronger" (again, not from a religious point of view, but a "worldly strength leadership" point of view) Jesus who holds a sword, and that's all. He fights. Does that makes him evil, in your eyes?

[Proletariat]

Nm.

[kiwitt]

A lot of religions are never happy unless all people belong to it, so that could be a reason. Theorists will believe this.

I think people are little cleverer than that, and get down to a more practical position. They have seen what America and her allies policies of late have done to the other countries. Simply read this (http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0504/S00278.htm) to see how people react to America's policy in Latin America as an example.

10,000's civilian's have been killed in recent actions. Revenge is another strong motivator.

[Devastatin Dave]

You are saying I'm ignorant, and something like: This is really insulting to me, who views generalization as a very "bad" thing. However, let's move on to the debate.

Mohammed, in my opinion, is a "stronger" (again, not from a religious point of view, but a "worldly strength leadership" point of view) Jesus who holds a sword, and that's all. He fights. Does that makes him evil, in your eyes?

Yes, when you are suppose to be a communicator of God and you are killing people and robbing them then to me you're not on the side of good and it makes you evil. Much like the Catholics during the crusades or that Japanese nut that gased those folks in the subway in Tokyo a few years back.

[GodsPetMonkey]

Right, forcing women to wear burqas and stoning rape victims is something any ole religion does, and you mean ALL religions. Sheesh. Keep drinking the moral relativism kool-aid.

Perhaps you missed "No more so than the socially backwards (extremist) members" part.

That means you can find fault with some members of any religion, SOME, not ALL, members.

Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, I don't care, people are people, there is no such thing as a perfect religion. If someone0 thinks their beliefs justify stoning people to death, lynching gays or committing grievous bodily harm with a flower, it doesn't make them right.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

That means you can find fault with some members of any religion, SOME, not ALL, members.

The problem is with Muslims that MOST of them believe in what she posted.

[AntiochusIII]

Yes, when you are suppose to be a communicator of God and you are killing people and robbing them then to me you're not on the side of good and it makes you evil. Much like the Catholics during the crusades or that Japanese nut that gased those folks in the subway in Tokyo a few years back.Hmm, you deem the crusades as evil on the Catholic side (not necessarily alone, but..)? Interesting. Could you elaborate on what is your stand in Christianity? Thank you. (erm, my emoticon broke, assume that chinese hat bowing one then.)

[AntiochusIII]

The problem is with Muslims that MOST of them believe in what she posted.So our duty seems more like enlightening them with non-violent and prudent ways, instead of war. So that they could get out of the Middle Age beliefs that are being fulled by their extremists.

After all, if I'm right, this is relying on one of the (supposedly) Jesus' most famous quotes and the Ten Commandments (I think?) about the cheek.

I prefer to kiss the one who hit my cheek on the cheek right away rather than let another hit, however. That is more logical and effective, avoiding twice hurt. Of course, if the hitter happens to be a guy I could be labeled a homosexual.

Also, back to the original thread, then I believe this should not apply to "Arab Mentality" or "Muslim" as the main reason of the violence. However, this should apply to "misinterpreted religion, fulled by terrorists" and "old conflicts renewed."

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Hmm, you deem the crusades as evil on the Catholic side

It certainly didnt follow any christain teachings that can be found in the bible. Were they evil? Well they were going to reclaim land that the Muslims took from them originaly by the sword so that doesnt make it eveil. Now did they commit many attrocites. Hell yes and those were evil. Its not christain teachings that are evil but the men who interpret them. In the case of Islam its all too easy to interpret them exactly as Bin Laden does.

[AntiochusIII]

It certainly didnt follow any christain teachings that can be found in the bible. Were they evil? Well they were going to reclaim land that the Muslims took from them originaly by the sword so that doesnt make it eveil. Now did they commit many attrocites. Hell yes and those were evil. Its not christain teachings that are evil but the men who interpret them. In the case of Islam its all too easy to interpret them exactly as Bin Laden does.I could've write it out again but I'm too lazy, so, I argue that the Koran is written in a different climate (no pun - no weather climate - just political climate) than the Bible:


Jihad can always been intrepeted as the inner fighting, and it is more a response in the climate in which the religion was born: Muslim rises into the vacuum of the disunited desert lands to bring the various tribes together, then, with inner energy of a rising power unable to express domestically (or no apparent need to) sets out on the world. Of course, the early founding is filled with violent attacks from those who are against really early Islam, before the unification of Arabia. That affects the basic teachings of Islam as the religion serves as a uniting force that needs to call these fractured people together into war as one. Apart from that, Christiano-Judaism beliefs settled well in Arabia and influence early Islam greatly, creating the basics of the religion. Could I possibly argue that this branch (or way) of observing/intrepeting the "unexplainable" seems to create ego, pride, and especially strong religious conflicts compare to the older, more tolerant polytheistic (albeit pretty much useless) ones? I'm not exploring this seriously, however.

While Christianity is born under the climate of the complete impossibility of revolting against the Romans, thus, the afterlife is the only hope stuff. Influenced by Judaism, as well, and by Jesus' natural calm and "back down" attitude he seems to have, unlike Mohammed's more "strong" attitude (from the view of a "ruler"), basic principles of first Christianity is arguably very "back down" worldly but bold on other sides, like spirituality.

Of course, this is all viewed from a historical point of view.

[Papewaio]

How about cults ie Fundamentalist Religion.

After all the IRA are not Muslims are they?

Remember this thread is about Islamic Terrorism. :bow:

You are preempting the answer and purposely ignoring other terrorists.

Catholic, Jewish, Christian etc all have had terrorists.

And the one thing is they tend to be ignorant one-eyed prejudiced and sincere.

++++

IMDHO

The definition of evil is when you deny the humanity in others.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

I could've write it out again but I'm too lazy, so, I argue that the Koran is written in a different climate (no pun - no weather climate - just political climate) than the Bible:

Yes one of war as opposed to peace.

Jihad means a holy war. Nuff said.

[AntiochusIII]

The definition of evil is when you deny the humanity in others.Impressive. Agreed whole-heartedly. :bow:

[Devastatin Dave]

Hmm, you deem the crusades as evil on the Catholic side (not necessarily alone, but..)? Interesting. Could you elaborate on what is your stand in Christianity? Thank you. (erm, my emoticon broke, assume that chinese hat bowing one then.)

Sure, I'm a Christian, and a hypocrit. I'm thankful that God still loves me regardless of my faults. Much like God, I believe, loves all that do evil things and provides everyone with guidlines for salvation of their sins. Let me clarify something... Do i think that people who practice Islam are evil, no, not neceassarily. I believe that they are following a faulted faith based on the teachings of a murderer in order for said murderer to control a large number of people, much like the Pope's of old did during the Crusades. I've been in the Air Force for 10 years and just recently seperated. In the military I've worked with and lived with every walk of person imaginable. All I know is, and this is a fact, that the majority, and I mean majority, of hot spots in the world, Islam is a contributing factor. No matter who is on the opposite side, Islam is in the mix.

All men are sinners and I'm no better than Bin Laden, but you there is a clear and defined enemy to me and my family. It is the practitioners of any faith that preached the destruction of my way of life. Whether it be radical muslims, radical Christians, the ACLU, certain members of the Democratic party, certain members of the Republican party, its all the same to me. All i know is that i watched 3000 of my fellow American vaporized by Muslims on a television while i was serving in South Korea, guarding against a Communist dictator just 100 miles north to that location. I have a lot of enemies and I'll be damned to be told that I'm ignorant when I know WHO wants me dead. I've lived long enough and have experiences and seen enough to know who my enemy is.

Sorry of I personnally insulted you, I was just offended by the way I might have "percieved" a bit of arrogance on your part.

Apology accepted?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

The definition of evil is when you deny the humanity in others.

So killling people isnt evil as long as you recognize their humanity.

[AntiochusIII]

Yes one of war as opposed to peace.

Jihad means a holy war. Nuff said.Please re-read my post again, in the quote box. I made it clear that Christianity is born into a world where Rome is THE dominating power politically. There is no room for a new belief to settle in as/or into a form of state. It was useless to resist the Romans, as Jesus' death proves it clearly. Islam, on the other hand, was born into, and perhaps because, a huge political vacuum that was the Arabia. When there is a political vacuum, another power will have to set in, one day or another. What happens if a religion sets in as a state-like power...

[GodsPetMonkey]

The problem is with Muslims that MOST of them believe in what she posted.

I have been to Indonesia several times, and never seen a berkha or stoning.
Now the majority of Muslims don't live in Indonesia, but it’s the most populus Muslim nation.

I think your statement is as silly as Arabs MOST Christians share the beliefs of the KKK.

In my experience, most Muslims, like most Christians, don't follow religious texts to the letter, indeed, I think most have a degree of antipathy when it comes to religious laws and doctrines. The world has moved a long way since the dark ages, sadly some people want to drag us back there.
All extremists are going to get what they deserve, and the world will be a better place for it.

[AntiochusIII]

Sure, I'm a Christian, and a hypocrit. I'm thankful that God still loves me regardless of my faults. Much like God, I believe, loves all that do evil things and provides everyone with guidlines for salvation of their sins. Let me clarify something... Do i think that people who practice Islam are evil, no, not neceassarily. I believe that they are following a faulted faith based on the teachings of a murderer in order for said murderer to control a large number of people, much like the Pope's of old did during the Crusades. I've been in the Air Force for 10 years and just recently seperated. In the military I've worked with and lived with every walk of person imaginable. All I know is, and this is a fact, that the majority, and I mean majority, of hot spots in the world, Islam is a contributing factor. No matter who is on the opposite side, Islam is in the mix.

All men are sinners and I'm no better than Bin Laden, but you there is a clear and defined enemy to me and my family. It is the practitioners of any faith that preached the destruction of my way of life. Whether it be radical muslims, radical Christians, the ACLU, certain members of the Democratic party, certain members of the Republican party, its all the same to me. All i know is that i watched 3000 of my fellow American vaporized by Muslims on a television while i was serving in South Korea, guarding against a Communist dictator just 100 miles north to that location. I have a lot of enemies and I'll be damned to be told that I'm ignorant when I know WHO wants me dead. I've lived long enough and have experiences and seen enough to know who my enemy is.

Sorry of I personnally insulted you, I was just offended by the way I might have "percieved" a bit of arrogance on your part.

Apology accepted?Apology accepted. Apology requested on the outburst on my part. Sorry. (the emoticon broke again: fill this in with the bowing hat-headed)

However, I disagree on your position that Mohammed was an evil man. My arguments are in my posts to Gawain. And I view the ACLU as a good organization, in my opinion.

Though the impact and the sheer cruelty of the 9/11 event should not be degraded, I feel that, in bringing war into Iraq, much more than that has died.

[Proletariat]

Perhaps you missed "No more so than the socially backwards (extremist) members" part.

That means you can find fault with some members of any religion, SOME, not ALL, members.

Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, I don't care, people are people, there is no such thing as a perfect religion. If someone0 thinks their beliefs justify stoning people to death, lynching gays or committing grievous bodily harm with a flower, it doesn't make them right.


I'm not talking about people. I'm talking about religions. Find another modern day mainstream religion that oppresses women half as much, and I'll shut up.

The Canadian female photographer who was in the headlines recently says 'hello,' by the way.

[Devastatin Dave]

Agreed..

About the Iraqi war, I view it as a completion of the 91 war. Saddam continiously fired at our planes in the no fly zone and kicked out the weapons inspectors on numerous occasions. I view it as completing the job, but thats an entirely different debate.

Now that I'm out of active duty, I'll have more freedom to express my opinions on this latest conflict. Not tonight, got too much to do. Maybe in June when my terminal leave ends and my civilian life begins.

[GodsPetMonkey]

I'm not talking about people. I'm talking about religions. Find another modern day mainstream religion that oppresses women half as much, and I'll shut up.

The Canadian female photographer who was in the headlines recently says 'hello,' by the way.

Find me any modern day religion that oppresses women...

It's all about people, religion is just a personal belief, everyone interprets it differently, you may confusing the Iranian government with the Islamic faith. Just because they try to justify their abhorrent practices with their beliefs does not make the religion 'evil', nor does it make their acts right.

As a good Christian (ok, bit a presumption on my part, on both your religion and goodness ~;) ) you should know all men sin, and God offers a way to redeem yourself. Some people interpret this to mean you can sin all you want, God will forgive you.

[Beirut]

You guys on the left couldn't find your ass hole with a mirror and a can of KY...

Hmm, well I have the mirror, but I had to go next door to borrow some KY. You should have seen the look on their faces when I asked to borrow a cup of that!

Anyway, after a few minutes I found it...

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/horsesass/GWB.bmp

[AntiochusIII]

I'm not talking about people. I'm talking about religions. Find another modern day mainstream religion that oppresses women half as much, and I'll shut up.

The Canadian female photographer who was in the headlines recently says 'hello,' by the way.Extremism are stronger in Muslim countries thanks to their poor living condition standard - thanks to the fact that their capitalism, unprepared by enlightenment ideas like Euro-American version, inspired by that "black gold" oil leads to greed and create a form of modern oligarchy, or dictatorial rise opposing these "oligarchies", that leads to the concentration of wealth and power among the few and left the Muslim world in poverty, prone to extremist propaganda,, just like Russia 1914-1918, and underdeveloped society, without easy access to new wealth and new ideas, is the actual reason, in my opinion. Not Islam in its base.

Also, may you consider this a parallel recurring of what happened during the Middle Age and Renaissance to Enlightenment transition in Europe? Perhaps the factor that there is now a developed Western world looking to improve their conditions will remedy the situation? However, a war or other acts on hatred on our parts only falls into the terrorists' hands.

Edit: To further prove my point, I would elaborate the details:

Europe in the Middle Ages, representing the Christian world, was a barbaric place where barbaric practices are found. When it finally discovers renewed intellectualism and steps out of the dark, it finds itself in turmoil. Old privileged people fought against the formerly oppressed, wars raged on and on and religious conflicts within Christianity itself reached its greatest violence and climax - and saw political reasons replacing theological wars. Prosecution increased, responded by increased radical-ness. Revolutions soon followed as the whole confusion reaches its climax, like in France, unlike in the US (which has different factors of its own). Finally, this brings in new hope that has been squandered by the Industrialized life being even harsher than ever to the majority, and opens the door for further radical-ness, in form of Communism. These leads into the 20th century, where it seems two World Wars had broken much of the ties with the past, and we moved forward, but the conflicts are far from over. Fortunately, words and reasonings are used more often now than force.

How could we prevent this to happen to its full in the Islamic world, as we passed them all before? Of course, it's not parallel in time or list but it's pretty much similar.

[bmolsson]

The Saudis started all this BS......

[DemonArchangel]

There has to be an "all of the above"
option.

[AntiochusIII]

Agreed..

About the Iraqi war, I view it as a completion of the 91 war. Saddam continiously fired at our planes in the no fly zone and kicked out the weapons inspectors on numerous occasions. I view it as completing the job, but thats an entirely different debate.

Now that I'm out of active duty, I'll have more freedom to express my opinions on this latest conflict. Not tonight, got too much to do. Maybe in June when my terminal leave ends and my civilian life begins.Agreed, that's another debate.

[bmolsson]

The increasing fundamentalism in the world can be found everywhere and in all religions. The largest difference between the arab states and other countries is the poor standard of the law enforcement. There are more police officers per capita as well as people in prison in US compare to Indonesia. Therefore Indonesia have had more problems with terrorism than US itself. Look at a country like Singapore, people don't even spit on the pavement there and it's just next door to Indonesia. It's all a question of law enforcement.

Saudi Arabia did encourage wahibism and terrorism. They are the origin of the evil streamings of islam. Why? Political game I would assume....

[Proletariat]

It's all about people, religion is just a personal belief, everyone interprets it differently, you may confusing the Iranian government with the Islamic faith. Just because they try to justify their abhorrent practices with their beliefs does not make the religion 'evil', nor does it make their acts right.


Erm, it's a theocracy.



As a good Christian (ok, bit a presumption on my part, on both your religion and goodness ~;) ) you should know all men sin, and God offers a way to redeem yourself. Some people interpret this to mean you can sin all you want, God will forgive you.

I'm an atheist fwiw, but I understand what you mean. It's not enough for me to give these moronic zealot mullahs a pass, though.

[GodsPetMonkey]

Erm, it's a theocracy.

I'm an atheist fwiw, but I understand what you mean. It's not enough for me to give these moronic zealot mullahs a pass, though.

My opinion of a theocracy is a despotism that claims it was ordained by God, another example of attempting to justify cruelty, oppression, etc by saying "God says I can".

Don't worry, I see where your coming from, I think saying we should 'tolerate' those extreme views because they claim its part of their religion/culture/heritage is utter BS, I just don't think those extreme views make the religion/culture/heritage evil, its just their justification, they know what they are doing is wrong so they say such things to sleep easier at night.
Moronic zealot mullahs = waste of humanity
Moronic zealot preachers = waste of humanity
Moronic zealot monks = waste of humanity (ok, I'm starting to run out of ways to make fun of Buddhists).
It's all the same crap, and while it is more prevalent in Muslim countries, there seems to be an abundance of moronic zealot mullahs, as they die (preferably in an ironic manner) some other group of moronic zealots will steal the limelight.

[PanzerJaeger]

You are preempting the answer and purposely ignoring other terrorists.

Catholic, Jewish, Christian etc all have had terrorists.

And the one thing is they tend to be ignorant one-eyed prejudiced and sincere.

You seem to be unable to read the title of a thread. If you want to discuss other forms of terrorism, make another thread.

In any event, the muslim apologists seem to be having a hard time explaining why we should accept such a belief system that breeds violence.

Is there actually any proof that - as we hear constantly - "The vast majority of muslims are peaceful and tolorent."?

It seems to me that most of the muslims in the middle east may not be overtly violent, for fear of obliteration, but do support the hatred that spawns terrorism. If this is the case, will we ever stop the terrorists without confronting the followers of Mohommed?

Frankly im starting to lose faith in the whole "99% are peaceful loving people" line that was forced down our throats after 9/11.

[Papewaio]

Right and all Christians are KKK members.

All Catholics are IRA.

All Germans are Nazis.

All Americans are terrorists becasue of Timothy McVeigh and the Unibomber...

[PanzerJaeger]

:stupid: - Come to think of it, no im not. ~;)

[Devastatin Dave]

and all Australians are Steve Irwin, or the Wiggles....

[Crazed Rabbit]

Excuse me? Shall we list the countries the US "crusaded" against? Would you like them alphabetically or chronologically?

How many times was the US attacked before it actually retaliated?
Let's see, there was
1)Iranian hostages
2)Lebanon Bombing
3)Libyan bombing of US military dance hall in Germany
4)First WTC attack
5)Embassy bombings in Africa
6)USS Cole bombing
7)Second WTC attack, Pentagon attack, Hijacked plane crash
And probably some others I missed.

@Navaros:
If I believe Protestanism is a form of terrible moral decay, would I be right in going around killing Protestants and/or forcing their conversion all around the world? If man is free to think and act on his own, then countries, as representatives of the people, are free to think and act on their own, without being attacked by some crazy terrorist who expresses his moral angst with society by blowing up women and children.


as they die (preferably in an ironic manner)

Perhaps being crushed under a oversized representation of the Quran?

The fact is that Islam is the only religion which oppresses women to such a degree. They are forced to marry, act as slaves to their husbands, and killed (by the state or their own families) if a man rapes them. While this mainly only happens in the theocratic countries, like Iran and African countries with 'Sharia law', so called 'honor killings' go on even in western countries with Muslim immigrants. And many Muslims support this. Even supposing the vast majority don't, the majority hasn't made a perceptable effort to change it.

Nowhere in any other religion will you find this level of support for oppression and terrorism. They are a few whackos who kill abortion "doctors", but noone supports them.

Personally, I think Islam needs to go thorugh a 'reformation' of sorts and get all the oppresion out of their religion. But, as DevDave said, the founder wasn't the pinacle of morality, so it may be hard to change.

EDIT: Also, the crusades weren't invading Muslim lands. The Muslims had taken those lands from the Byzantine Empire, and the crusades were an effort to regain those lands and prevent further Muslim invasions.

Crazed Rabbit

[Navaros]

In my experience, most Muslims, like most Christians, don't follow religious texts to the letter, indeed, I think most have a degree of antipathy when it comes to religious laws and doctrines.


this is incorrect. in actuality, all Christian and Muslim people follow their Holy Books to the letter. or at least try to.

anyone who does not, is not a Christian or Muslim. they may call themselves that. but calling themselves that does not make them that.

rather, they are as the Bible says, wolves in sheeps clothing. pretending to be religious when in actuality they put their own petty, pathetic, infantesmile, evil agenda ahead of what God has said. people such as this are not qualified to assume the labels of Christian or Muslim.

[Papewaio]

I thought it was The Bible or the bible never the Bible...

[AntiochusIII]

How many times was the US attacked before it actually retaliated?
Let's see, there was
1)Iranian hostages
2)Lebanon Bombing
3)Libyan bombing of US military dance hall in Germany
4)First WTC attack
5)Embassy bombings in Africa
6)USS Cole bombing
7)Second WTC attack, Pentagon attack, Hijacked plane crash
And probably some others I missed.The first Iraq war: justified by the invasion of Kuwait. The second Iraq war: not.


Perhaps being crushed under a oversized representation of the Quran?Perhaps under an oversized representation of the Bible, if you like the book falling on people joke?


The fact is that Islam is the only religion which oppresses women to such a degree. They are forced to marry, act as slaves to their husbands, and killed (by the state or their own families) if a man rapes them. While this mainly only happens in the theocratic countries, like Iran and African countries with 'Sharia law', so called 'honor killings' go on even in western countries with Muslim immigrants. And many Muslims support this. Even supposing the vast majority don't, the majority hasn't made a perceptable effort to change it.Why, then? I've found no clues about this being because of Islam itself. More like an extreme case of cultural breach to me.


Nowhere in any other religion will you find this level of support for oppression and terrorism. They are a few whackos who kill abortion "doctors", but noone supports them.Explore the reasons of the Muslim world being easy target and breeding ground of terrorism in the first place, and you'll understand. The terrorists are extremists - not usual Muslims. Having extra support does not support the arrogant myth of Muslim evil. Look into history; this is a product of the barbaric Medieval Age.


Personally, I think Islam needs to go thorugh a 'reformation' of sorts and get all the oppresion out of their religion. But, as DevDave said, the founder wasn't the pinacle of morality, so it may be hard to change.Do not define others based on your own morality. That degrades your own morality into nothing more than either ignorance or arrogance to others when viewed from a neutral point of view. Yes, Islam needs to go to a reformation. Many religions went through it before, a point in history where a religion recieves a massive upheaval one way or another. Christianity went through it before, and they came out looking much less corrupted and yet much less influential. Perhaps that is why religious reformation is so hard; someone's going to lose some power of theirs. But no, we're not going to invade them for the sake of reformation, like we're doing now. That is a forced reformation and will never have real effect.


EDIT: Also, the crusades weren't invading Muslim lands. The Muslims had taken those lands from the Byzantine Empire, and the crusades were an effort to regain those lands and prevent further Muslim invasions.

Crazed RabbitAnd the Byzantines(Romans) captured it from the Seleucids, and Maccabin Jews. Seleucids captured it from Antigonids, who captured it from Eumenes, who practically "inherited" the area from Perdiccas and Alexander. Alexander took it from Persia, who took it from the Phoenicians and Jews, who took it from the Philistines. Shall I go on? It was Muslim land for centuries and the invaders were no Byzantines. They were "Franks" as the Muslim called them, compare to "Romans."

[GodsPetMonkey]

Perhaps being crushed under a oversized representation of the Quran?

Good start, but I'm sure we can come up with even more ironic deaths.



The fact is that Islam is the only religion which oppresses women to such a degree. They are forced to marry, act as slaves to their husbands, and killed (by the state or their own families) if a man rapes them. While this mainly only happens in the theocratic countries, like Iran and African countries with 'Sharia law', so called 'honor killings' go on even in western countries with Muslim immigrants. And many Muslims support this. Even supposing the vast majority don't, the majority hasn't made a perceptable effort to change it.

Nowhere in any other religion will you find this level of support for oppression and terrorism. They are a few whackos who kill abortion "doctors", but noone supports them.


Well, no public support at least (on both issues).
Still, that doesn't make it right, or legal.
The way that some Muslims treat women is totally horrific, but there are plenty of non-Muslims who treat women like crap too. Both should be stopped, and anyone who does this kind of thing should be exposed for the nut bag they are.
I don't think the few honour killings are truly representative of Muslim actions at large, but the fact that large parts are willing to let it happen (as long as it's not in their faces) is disgusting.



EDIT: Also, the crusades weren't invading Muslim lands. The Muslims had taken those lands from the Byzantine Empire, and the crusades were an effort to regain those lands and prevent further Muslim invasions.

Crazed Rabbit

Well, I don't doubt the true nature of the crusades was to stop a Muslim 'super power', which was a threat to Christian Europe, but the Egyptians, who controlled the region of Palestine when the first crusade arrived (but had not been the ones who had conquered it) were surprisingly tolerant for the time. That and the people of those ex-Byzantine provinces had no love for their former masters, who tended to draft them into far away wars, and tax them into poverty to fund far away wars.

[Tachikaze]

I don't think the Koran says half of what detractors think it does. I suggest everyone who wants to coment on it should read it.

In future posts, I further suggest that you quote directly from the Koran when you claim it says something. Otherwise, we can only assume you are making it up.

The barbs being thrown at Islam in this thread are a perfect demonstration of the hatred that causes people to dehumanize other cultures, misrepresent them, and, ultimately, be able to kill them.

As someone pointed out, Islam is practiced in different ways by it's 1 billion followers. Nations with a Muslim majority stretch from Morrocco to Indonesia. Some of you are attacking 1/6 the population of the world because of the acts of a few.

Since the vast majority of terrorists have been men, why don't you just blame testosterone?

[bmolsson]

The fact is that Islam is the only religion which oppresses women to such a degree. They are forced to marry, act as slaves to their husbands, and killed (by the state or their own families) if a man rapes them. While this mainly only happens in the theocratic countries, like Iran and African countries with 'Sharia law', so called 'honor killings' go on even in western countries with Muslim immigrants. And many Muslims support this. Even supposing the vast majority don't, the majority hasn't made a perceptable effort to change it.



Interesting. I am a muslim with 2 wifes. My oppression of them is as follows:

1. They both have Amex Gold where I pay the bills.
2. They both have their own cars with their own driver.
3. They both live in their own house with maids and servants.
4. They both work in their own businesses.
5. They both have a university degree.

I confess, they are really oppressed. I will inform them immediately on their hardships......... ~:grouphug:

[Byzantine Prince]

This thread is so prejuduced it's beyond belief how it's being allowed. And then you raise my warning level for playing on the word niggard. Jesus h Christ have any of you people ever considered that some people on the forum are actually muslim, or that Islam is more anti-violence then christianity even?

[Drisos]

This definitely is not the muslim religion, every great religion is against any kind of murder, so does the Islam. I think it's the sick minds of a few religious and politic leaders that made everyone think bad of the West, and that now is a habit in the Middle-East, the parents make their own children be anti-west, so it keeps going. If they'd all read the Quran there, there wouldn't be any muslim terrorism anymore.

[Adrian II]

Maybe if Muhamed did a little less sacking of cities, robbing caravans, and slaughtering anyone that did not proclaim him a prophet, then I might find a way to view Islam in a better light.LOL! I shudder to think in what light you view Judaism then. Slaughtering entire peoples anyone? ~D

[Sjakihata]

Jihad means a holy war. Nuff said.

Jihad actually have two meanings. It can mean holy war (which isnt a bad thing remember) AND can mean inner struggle to peace (or something along those lines).

Another thing gawain - you claim most muslims believe in terrorism or agree with it - how do you know? Via western news media? or did you talk to every single muslim on the face of the earth? just curious.

[Beirut]

How many times was the US attacked before it actually retaliated?
Let's see, there was
1)Iranian hostages
2)Lebanon Bombing
3)Libyan bombing of US military dance hall in Germany
4)First WTC attack
5)Embassy bombings in Africa
6)USS Cole bombing
7)Second WTC attack, Pentagon attack, Hijacked plane crash
And probably some others I missed.


Ahhh, I see. So the US and the CIA sponsored the coups in Central and South America decades ago that led to the deaths of hundreds of thousands because of the WTC attacks? A bowl of red hot Chile anyone? Maybe I can Allende you a dollar or two to buy a history book if you can't afford one.

Was it because of the USS Cole that the US plunged Guatemala into a civil war that cost over 250,000 lives over US corporate banana profits?

Did the US prop up and support all those heinous and horrible dictators all over the world for the past few decades because they knew one day Osama would organize attacks against American embassies in Africa?

Don't get me wrong, I'm actually a big fan of the US, but y'all should exercise a bit of introspection before you cast yourselves as the righteous victims and the other side as evil incarnate. There are countries that would accuse the US of, directly or not, contributing to hundreds of times more innocent deaths than the US has suffered at the hands of terrorists. They might say that US corporate intersts are far more dangerous to them than Muslim extremism.

What's that line about people who live in glass countries not throwing stones?

[Steppe Merc]

I'd probably say oppression at home. If so many people weren't suffering, then their wouldn't be people to recruit, no desprate people who are willing to die for what others tell them.


Jesus h Christ have any of you people ever considered that some people on the forum are actually muslim, or that Islam is more anti-violence then christianity even?
Good lord, it's scary, but I agree with you. Muslim religion is peaceful, damnit!
Islam is not at all at fault. It is people's fault for corrupting Mohammed's message, who I respect along with other spiritual leaders including Jesus, Martin Luther King, Gandhi and Buddha.

Also, the crusades weren't invading Muslim lands. The Muslims had taken those lands from the Byzantine Empire, and the crusades were an effort to regain those lands and prevent further Muslim invasions.
Eh, wrong. Catholics didn't like the Empire. They were different sects, and they never gave the Byzantines back their land once they conquered it, did they? No, later on they took Constantinople themselves. It was all about money, not helping fellow Christians.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Why, then? I've found no clues about this being because of Islam itself. More like an extreme case of cultural breach to me.

Yeah and we in the west dont act the way we do because of Judeau Christain ethics either. Give me a break. How is it that these things are systematic and widespread in Muslim nations but not in christain ones? Were they doing this in those countries before they became Muslims?


Do not define others based on your own morality.

Yes never judge anybody. Charles Manson has as much right to think ,believe and do as he pleases as you do.


but there are plenty of non-Muslims who treat women like crap too

But its not in their holy books or in their laws.


And the Byzantines(Romans) captured it from the Seleucids, and Maccabin Jews. Seleucids captured it from Antigonids, who captured it from Eumenes, who practically "inherited" the area from Perdiccas and Alexander. Alexander took it from Persia, who took it from the Phoenicians and Jews, who took it from the Philistines. Shall I go on? It was Muslim land for centuries and the invaders were no Byzantines. They were "Franks" as the Muslim called them, compare to "Romans.

In its entire history only one indiginous peoples have had a nation there and it was called Israel.


It is people's fault for corrupting Mohammed's message,

Thats what Bin Laden claims.


It was all about money, not helping fellow Christians.

Yup in reality it had very little to do with christianity. Christianity was the excuse not the cause.


or that Islam is more anti-violence then christianity even?

Youll have a hard time backing that one up.


Jihad actually have two meanings. It can mean holy war (which isnt a bad thing remember) AND can mean inner struggle to peace (or something along those lines).

So what? It still has the first.


LOL! I shudder to think in what light you view Judaism then. Slaughtering entire peoples anyone?

Didnt they stop this practise a few thousand years ago and since hasnt the shoe been on the other foot and everyone has been trying to slaughter them?


I confess, they are really oppressed. I will inform them immediately on their hardships.......

They obviously are their married to you ~D


I don't think the Koran says half of what detractors think it does. I suggest everyone who wants to coment on it should read it.

I suggest you follow your own advice or would you like me to start posting quotes and articles on these matters as it applies to the Koran.

I dont know how anyone can follow a relogion started by a war mongering, murdering pedophile.

[Ironside]

I would put Saudi Arabia first actually.

They are the main recruiting ground for international terrorists (too big unemployent in certain groups as one reason), have encouraged this fundamentalist form (wahibism) that most international terrorists seems to follow.

The religion can produce this problem, but it has done so for all other major religions, so it only seems to be used as an excuse. BTW the current terrorist problems is about 30 years old and Islam is a little bit older than so. Islam seems to need some kind of reform though.

Poverty at home can be chanalled into local terrorism, but not much more (they lack the money). Oppression at home is about the same, but can produce more international terrorists. The goverment can inadvertly produse more terrorists though, when they divert thier population's focus on a enemy.

The United States of America's Policy/Actions

With the Soviets dead, they are an easy target as thier foregin policy havn't exactly been nice, but the havn't messed so much in the Middle East but mostly in South-America.

18th/19th Century European Colonialism

A minor part of it. Problem can be traced back to it, but the time interval is too big nowadays.

Christianity

Without it no muslim terrorists ~;) , as Islam is inspired by Christianity, and without Islam, no muslim terrorists. ~D

On a more serious note. As the western world is mostly secularized and that other religions are also being targeted, I would say no. The next point indicates actually that a devout (fundamentic) Christian world could have less problems.

Jealousy of the Western System
Rejection of the Western System

Mostly an excuse, seen as imoral. Even we are complaining on parts of it.

Israeli Policy/Actions
The Palastinian Movement's Policy/Actions

Used as an excuse and a enemy. Would like to see it resolved though.

Iran's Policy/Actions

Iran seems more to be created by the same reasons todays terrorists exist, than to be the cause of it.

Egypt's Policy/Actions
The Mentality of Arab People

Don't know enough on it to comment on.

Why does this fundamentalists exist in the first place? Don't know for sure, but it seems to be some kind of extreme anti-movement for what they see as backward movement. Back towards the "old and safe" (the pure world in thier eyes) so to say.
I do suspect that Saudi Arabia and the Afghani war has made most for creating the look of this terrorist movement as it looks today (didn't create it though).

[Ser Clegane]

You are preempting the answer and purposely ignoring other terrorists.

Catholic, Jewish, Christian etc all have had terrorists.

And the one thing is they tend to be ignorant one-eyed prejudiced and sincere.

You seem to be unable to read the title of a thread. If you want to discuss other forms of terrorism, make another thread.

Actually referring to other terrorist movements to challenge some arguments that are brought forward on the causes for Islamic terrorism is absolutely valid and not off-topic.

P.S. to all patrons in this thread:
Unfortunately I currently do not have the time to carefully read through all posts in this thread, but some of the posts are pretty borderline IMHO.

Please keep this discussion civil, even if it might be an emotional topic. If the thread should degenerate into bashing and insulting a religion as a whole without providing some substance to it this thread will be closed (and I will consider further steps).
And before people start complaining about bias - the same will (and did) happen to general Christian and/or American bashing threads ~:)

[Duke Malcolm]

The IRA isn't a Catholic terrorist group, in the same way as Al Quaida a Muslim terrorist group.
The IRA doesn't fight for Catholicism, and to defend their religion, it fights to re-unify Ireland.

[Ser Clegane]

The IRA isn't a Catholic terrorist group, in the same way as Al Quaida a Muslim terrorist group.
The IRA doesn't fight for Catholicism, and to defend their religion, it fights to re-unify Ireland.

This discussion is not about AQ but about muslim terrorist groups in general. Leaving out references to the motivations of other terrorist groups like IRA would make a poll obsolete as that would mean that you consider Islam as such as the only possible answer to the original question.

If you do not want a discussion about this, why start a poll/thread in the first place?

[Byzantine Prince]

Clegane, why is it you allow anti-Islamic and prejuduced threads like this one, but when i diss americans you close the thread and raise my warning level?

[Ser Clegane]

Clegane, why is it you allow anti-Islamic and prejuduced threads like this one, but when i diss americans you close the thread and raise my warning level?

Did you happen to read that part of my post?


Unfortunately I currently do not have the time to carefully read through all posts in this thread, but some of the posts are pretty borderline IMHO.

Please keep this discussion civil, even if it might be an emotional topic. If the thread should degenerate into bashing and insulting a religion as a whole without providing some substance to it this thread will be closed (and I will consider further steps).


I have not read through all the posts in this thread, but there are quite some people here trying to discuss the question in a civil and objective manner.

In addition, it is not my job to suppress prejudices - it would be your job to counter prejudices with valid arguments if you feel that prejudices are voiced here.
My job is to interfere if patrons simply insult and bash people based on their nationality and/or religion.

If you have the urge to discuss this issue further, please PM me or if you want to take a more public an general approach, feel free to start a thread at the appropriate forum (i.e. the Watchtower).

[Goofball]

Thanks for sticking up for a culture that would stone me to death if I get raped, Tachi. Why don't you go live with them? Have you ever seen a beheading in Saudi?

Ever seen a gassing in Texas?

[Kanamori]

First, I will respond to the prompt, "What Is The #1 Contributing Factor That Leads To Muslim Terrorism?”

A unique Arab cultural history in which the role and evolution of the Islamic faith cannot be separated from the history of oppression and war Arabs HAVE suffered. Because their land has been invaded often in the past, from other Muslims in Fitnas (civil wars over successors of Muhammad), they have developed a stronger sense of “Us” and everyone else. Their religion has been the primary way to identify themselves and have a unity. Mostly, their first wars were between themselves, the Uhassad (sp) and the Abbasid, over who was the rightful heir of Muhammad. The Abbasid developed one of the most modern ancient cultures, centered in Baghdad. They created Algebra, developed lots of poetry, and preserved the writings of ancient Greece, while Europe was fascinated w/ burning the old heretical books. They were more tolerant of different ideas than many others in the world, and learning flourished. Their lands were invaded by Seljuk, order was restored temporarily after regaining independence, and then they were again decimated, this time by the Mongols, much more than Europe ever was. Since, they were split further into factions, and taken into the Ottoman Empire, which was entirely oppressive. All since the Mongols, Islam has primarily been identified as being under attack by outsiders. They have had an almost total splintering, in which Islam is their only self-identification. Some of the more violent portions of the Islamic-Arab culture prevailed from this period, and have since been re-emphasized, since the further splintering from the European Imperialists after WWI. Throughout, though, has arisen a very strong distrust of westerners, some very deserved, others not. Do note, however, that most of the violent portions of Islam that terrorists point to are from some of the very questionable Hadith, not the Qu’ran. (The Hadith are the laws of tradition that are said to be from Muhammad, but were written by others in the time. The Qu’ran was written by Muhammad, while the Hadith are sayings, and laws that are attributed to him. Also, Muhammad is not a Jesus figure to Islam, he is merely the last, and most important, prophet. In this, Islam has accepted many of the other prophets, whom they place Jesus with. I believe some are attributing massacres by early muslims to Muhammad. These were comitted by others, and were not condoned by him, as they were in direct opposition of the Qu'ran's teachings. In reality, Muhammad put the first limitations on war: killing women, children, elderly, and those of religious studies [any religious studies] were to be exempted from any sort of violence. The Qu'ran only supports a war in defense. Muhammad was kicked out for his beliefs and was prosecuted, in the Judeo tradition, he supported self defense.)

So, during the mid 20th century, Arabs became increasingly hostile, sometimes very rightfully so. However, the defensive-aggressive attitude has been grasped by some and improperly placed on others that are not as their former conquerors. Mostly, the attitude is from the combination of war, poverty and the perceived attack on Islam, which evolved w/ the poor conditions to become more violently interpreted. Because of the poor conditions, and a percieved common enemy, among the terrorists, not all muslims, the twisted-Islam has been the one grasped by the terrorists. While the teachings of the mutation Islam allow for such aggressive deeds, and the attitudes w/in this portion of Islam have affected how they interpret the world, it is largely poor conditions that have enabled a rise of ill willed people to gain followers. Basically, the mutation, that some muslims believe in, allow for such acts, but it is largely due to negative culural developments in some sectors, in which the religion merely plays a roll of putting the feelings together. Radical Islam is a form of attempted unity. In most things of cause and effect, it is nearly impossible to say that one cause was more important, or disparate, than the other causes that make up an effect.

Second, away from the express prompt, there are some misconceptions here.

"Now [native americans] are living in houses and many are getting rich."

While some natives americans are getting rich because of Casinos, the vast majority are neither rich nor can they really benefit as some have from casinos. Most tribes are not near any large groupings of population, and therefore, Casinos are a poor attempt at wealth.

"Right, forcing women to wear burqas and stoning rape victims is something any ole religion does, and you mean ALL religions. Sheesh. Keep drinking the moral relativism kool-aid."

Nowhere in the Qu'ran is this stated. The portion that many have interpreted to mean women must where burqas simply encourages women and men to dress conseratively, so as not to elicit unwanted sexual attention, such as rape. In fact, it encourages women to be viewed as much more than pieces of meat that are soley to be desired sexually and for procreation. In the dark ages of Islam, the Hadith was created (shortly after Muhammads death, when there was much civil war) and such provisions that you note were made, and were supposedly from Muhammad. Also, many liberal attitudes in modern Islam are strongly denouncing the not so nice Hadith laws. As has always been the case in Iraq, women are not required to wear burqas and such. It is often misinterpreted that Islam was made to view women as inferior to men: this is quite incorrect. What is in Iran is a cult of fanaticism

Trying to generalize Islam is quite wrong, because, like any major religion, there are many sects that differ widely in belief and how their texts are interpreted.

[Proletariat]

Ever seen a gassing in Texas?

Please tell me you have more to your point than this? I'm against all forms of capitol punishment, but the beheadings in the middle east make a gassing look palatable. That doesn't make muslims evil or whatever else you might try to twist my words into, but it is certainly a very backward culture with alot of barbaric aspects.

[Goofball]

Please tell me you have more to your point than this? I'm against all forms of capitol punishment, but the beheadings in the middle east make a gassing look palatable. That doesn't make muslims evil or whatever else you might try to twist my words into, but it is certainly a very backward culture with alot of barbaric aspects.

Actually, you just made my point for me, no word-twisting required. You cannot hold up capital punishment as a sign of a culture's barbarity without indicting all cultures that make use of capital punishment.

At any rate, having lived in Saudi Arabia for eight years, I would venture that I am more qualified to speak to the level of barbarism (or lack thereof) in that culture than you are. And yes, you are right, they do have some very backward views, especially with respect to women. But I would stop well short of calling them barbarians.

The point I'm making is that every culture on the planet has aspects that we could hold up as barbaric (seal hunting in Canada, bull fighting in Spain, capital punishment in the U.S., etc...), so don't let's be too self-righteous when discussing the Arabs.

[Byzantine Prince]

The point I'm making is that every culture on the planet has aspects that we could hold up as barbaric (seal hunting in Canada, bull fighting in Spain, capital punishment in the U.S., etc...), so don't let's be too self-righteous when discussing the Arabs.
...anal sex in greece...

[Beirut]

That's the second time you've introduced anal sex into a thread in the last week.

Hmmmmm...

[Byzantine Prince]

You have some sort of issue with that?
Remember the one's that are antagonized by it are usually the one's with the real issue. ~;)

[Beirut]

I'm not antagonized at all. I fully support every adult's freedom of expression, whatever course that may take.

I'm just pointing out that this is the second time you brought it up. That's all.

:cool4: Beirut walks away whistling, as innocent as the wind.

[Proletariat]

Actually, you just made my point for me, no word-twisting required. You cannot hold up capital punishment as a sign of a culture's barbarity without indicting all cultures that make use of capital punishment.


Please find the post in this thread where I said capital punishment alone is why Arabic culture has room for improvement.



At any rate, having lived in Saudi Arabia for eight years, I would venture that I am more qualified to speak to the level of barbarism (or lack thereof) in that culture than you are. And yes, you are right, they do have some very backward views, especially with respect to women. But I would stop well short of calling them barbarians.


Venture all you'd like, but I've seen enough of it to feel convicted in my opinion.



The point I'm making is that every culture on the planet has aspects that we could hold up as barbaric (seal hunting in Canada, bull fighting in Spain, capital punishment in the U.S., etc...), so don't let's be too self-righteous when discussing the Arabs.

Sorry, I don't equate seal hunting or bull fighting with stoning rape victims or torturing and murdering photographers, but at least we can agree that capital punishment is basest and wrong.

[sharrukin]

The point I'm making is that every culture on the planet has aspects that we could hold up as barbaric (seal hunting in Canada, bull fighting in Spain, capital punishment in the U.S., etc...), so don't let's be too self-righteous when discussing the Arabs.

Are you seriously suggesting that the death of an animal such as a Canadian seal or a Spanish bull is the moral equivalence of a man's death in the Texas gas chamber?

Or that the man's death in the Texas gas chamber is the moral equivalence of a woman being raped and then killed for it?

Moral relativism indeed!

[Steppe Merc]

Perhaps not, but it is still dispicable. It is still an innocent life being taken unjustly.


I dont know how anyone can follow a relogion started by a war mongering, murdering pedophile.
Are you kidding me man? You don't like people's religion, so you start insulting their prophet? For goodness sakes, his religion is essentially identical to Chrisitanty and Judiasm!


In its entire history only one indiginous peoples have had a nation there and it was called Israel.
So there was no one there before the Jews?


So what? It still has the first.
Jihads were revived only as a response to the Crusades. Before that, they were obsolete pretty much, but with the Crusades, the Muslims became more holy warrior centered.

Which actually brings me to the fact I would like to change my view on the main cause. It was the Crusades. Here me out, now.
The Crusades caused Islam to become more violent as a reaction to their invasion. They became less trusting of outsiders, when before they were happy to have Jews and Christians serving them. It set back Muslim progression, who were far more advanced than the Westerners, but between the Crusaders and Mongols, they had a real rough time keeping up their cultural progression.
So to me, it started many of the trends we see now: Extremist military holy warriors, not trusting outsiders, less advanced, and it set the tone for the whole East vs. West thing.

And Gawain, thanks for agreeing with me about the cause for the Crusades, since it was certiantly nothing to do with religion or the Byzantines.

[Kanamori]

"So there was no one there before the Jews?"

No, no. That was only after Joshua.

[Don Corleone]

Actually, the nation of Israel dates to the arrival of Abraham in Canaan. But even then, there were indigenous peoples there.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Are you kidding me man? You don't like people's religion, so you start insulting their prophet? For goodness sakes, his religion is essentially identical to Chrisitanty and Judiasm!

First of all Isalm is very different from Judiasm and Christianity. Im sorry if you cant handle the truth about Mohamed.

What do you call someoe who marries a 6 year old. At least he waited until she was 9 to have sex with her.

I belive this qualifies him as a mureder and war monger.


Prophet of Terror and the Religion of Peace--Part III

In the Third Part of this series on Mohammed's life, I will be focusing on three events that define the nature of Islam's foundations. At this stage, Mohammed had gained power through his assassinations, looting, massacares and raping. The Jewish Tribes of Medinah had been inhabitants of that city for centuries before the Prophet decided to make it the headquarters of his criminal activities. All the Jews were becoming increasingly dissatisfied and angered at the deeds of the Muslims. The Jewish Tribes were peace-loving, hard working tradespeople, whose purpose in life was to earn a decent living through honest means and hard effort. They were perfectly content with the religion of their forefathers and had never anticipated that the man to whom they had given shelter so graciously, would turn into the power crazed monster who was now turning around to attack them. Mohammed was in the position to carry out his hidden ambitions, which became clear soon enough.

With the utmost disregard for all human morality, ethics, or respect for human life, the Prophet of Islam systematically targeted and slaughtered the very Jews of Medinah who had helped him when everyone else in Arabia was kicking him like a dog. He was motivated by these primary reasons

1. His fanatic greed for all the wealth that had been created by the blood, sweat and toil of the Jews
2. His maniacal craving for power at any cost. The Jews were the biggest obstacle in his plan to subjugate all of Medinah, so they had to be removed, by any means possible
3. His fear of all other religions. Mohammed was a delusional Megalomaniac, meaning he believed that he was the Supreme Ruler of the world. Anything that threatened this sick fantasy of his, had to be exterminated. Since, the religion of the Jews rejected his pathetic claims to Divine rule, they were the targeted victims in Medinah, just as the Polytheistic Arabs had been his victims in Mecca.

The incidents narrated below demonstrate the horrific depth of Mohammed's atrocities. Keep in mind that Mohammed is the Model of Good Islamic behaviour and you will realise how Islam advocates genocide in the name of religion.

8) Murder of a Jewish Elder from Khaybar
Date: Late April 626 A.D.
Place: The Jewish Oasis of Khyber
Victims: Abu Rafi

The Muslims who had murdered Kaab Ibn Al Ashraf the famous poet of the Banu-N-Nair (See Prophet of Terror & the "Religion of Peace" Part 2) were considered as heroes by Mohammed and his followers. Murderers were considered as ideal Muslims. A group of Muslims from the Khazraj Tribe decided to prove their loyalty to their Prophet by killing off a respectable member of the Jewish Community. Abu Rafi was an elderly man who had never done anything against Mohammed or the Muslims. He just happened to be the unfortunate target of Mohammed's plot to terrorize the Jews. The Prophet wanted to send out a message to the Jews, which spelt out clearly that Mohammed was in control of their lives. The "expedition" to kill the poor old helpless man had the specific blessings of the "Merciful" Prophet. About Six of them broke into the Old man's house in the middle of the night and slashed him to ribbons as he slept. The cowardly Muslims always assassinated people in this way, while the victim slept, obviously because they had neither the courage nor the strength to fight even a solitary, aged Jewish Man while he was awake. After their crime, the Muslims fled back home into the arms of their expectant Prophet. There was a fight among them as to who had actually killed Abu Rafi. At this, the Prophet smiled beatifically and started checking their swords. Finally, it was decided that the person who owned the sword which still had traces of food in it, was the winner. Apparently Abu Rafi had just finished his dinner before falling asleep and the sword had slashed through his stomach spilling its contents. Indeed how Benevolent was the Apostle of Peace!

9) Massacre, Rape and Plunder of Banu-L-Mustaliq
Date: December 626 A.D.
Place: The well of Muraysi near Red Sea
Victims: The Tribe of Banu-L-Mustaliq

Mohammed attacked the Banu-L-Mustaliq because of their wealth. In a surprise raid, the Muslims drove them to the Sea. They slaughtered many members of the Banu-N-Mustaliq Tribe and looted away a booty of 2000 Camels, 5000 Sheep and 500 Women! 500 women were captured screaming and crying after they had watched their husbands and sons being slaughtered. The most beautiful captive was Juwayriyya, daughter of the chief of the Banu-L-Mustaliq. Mohammed snatched her to satisfy his own animal lust. The captured women were supposed to be returned by the Muslims upon payment of a ransom. But the night after the battle itself, Mohammed and his army raped each and every one of them. One of the men Abu Sa'id Khudri of Mohammed's army reported :

"We were lusting after women and chastity had become too hard for us, but we wanted to get the ransom money for our prisoners. So we wanted to use the "Azl" (Coitus Interruptus- where the man withdraws before ejaculating)...We asked the Prophet about it and he said: "You are not under any obligation to stop yourselves from doing it like that.." Later on the women and children were given for ransom to their envoys. They all went away to their country and not One wanted to stay although they had the choice.."

So the Great Prophet of Peace told his men it was perfectly FINE to rape women as long as you didn't ejaculate inside them (which made them pregnant). What supreme logic! Any human being with the slightest shred of morality has to be nauseated by this Man and the religion he preached. Mohammed, the supreme religious figurehead of Islam sanctions RAPE, pure and simple. Not only did the Muslims commit this horrifying crime, they decieved the Tribesmen into paying Ransom for their womenfolk, who only paid the money in a desperate attempt to save their women's honor. To call such a Prophet and his followers the epitome of Evil is probably an understatement.

10) Massacre of the Banu -Qurayza
Date: April-May 627 A.D.
Place: Medinah
Victims: The Last Jewish Tribe left in Medinah The Banu-Qurayza.

By this time, Mohammed had murdered or driven out all of the Jewish Tribes of Medinah, except the Banu Qurayza. It was time to eliminate this last thorn in his flesh. The Banu Qurayza had been reluctant in helping Mohammed against the Quraysh. Conveniently once again, Mohammed claimed that he had divine knowledge about a conspiracy by the Banu-Qurayza to kill him. He beseiged their fortress for Twenty-Five days. When the starving Tribe surrendered, Mohammed forced an old man from their own Tribe to pronounce Mohammed's sentence. The sentence was death to every male member of the Tribe, Slavery for every woman and child and Plunder of all their property.

The Prophet had an immense trench dug around the main market of Medinah. The men of the Banu Qurayza were rounded up & their hands twisted tightly behind them. Then one by one, they were shoved to the edge of the trench and forced to kneel. They were offered a last chance to convert to "The True Faith" and if they refused, had their heads chopped off. As soon as one head would roll off, the corpse would be kicked into the ditch, and so it went. By the time Dawn had colored the sky red in Medinah, hundreds of corpses piled up in a heap in a tangled cesspool of blood, hair and shreds of flesh. Despite the horrific end in front of their eyes, none of the Jews chose to convert to Islam and faced death valiantly. The blood of 900 innocent Jews stained Mohammed's hands on that black day.

Their only crime was that they chose to retain their fundamental human right, of choosing their own God and the religion of their ancestors. Hysterical women & children screamed as they watched their fathers, husbands & sons die. The majority of them were raped savagely and then bundled off to be sold as "used goods". The Prophet had the husband of the Jewess Raihana Bint Amr hacked to pieces before her very eyes, hours after he had murdered her father. No doubt this was the Prophet's perverted version of a wedding present, because after these atrocities he raped the mortified girl and tried to force her to convert to Islam.

Muslim historians still describe the savage rape of Raihana Bint Amr as her "willing submission to Islam and wifehood to the Prophet"

Apparently according to them it is very natural to imagine that a woman who has just seen her husband, father, brothers and Tribe slaughtered violently before her very eyes, would CHOOSE to convert to the religion of the murderer and marry him! In actual fact Raihana REFUSED to convert to Islam and also refused to marry Mohammed the murderer of her family. He kept her as a lowly concubine all his life. So much for the "Apostle of Peace" and his unbounded RESPECT for women. Mohammed was nothing but a serial rapist, who acquired his victims by killing their families first.

Allah as usual has provided yet another timeless Divine revelation which gives his Prophet the Right to rape and torture women of other religions.
Koran 4:24

"And all married women are forbidden unto you EXCEPT those captives whom your right hand possesses. It is a decree of Allah for you. Lawful unto you are all beyond those mentioned, so that you seek them with your wealth in honest wedlock, not debauchery..."

In short Allah the All Merciful is saying "Hey Muslims, it's a crime to go after married women, but IF they happen to be your captives (which obviously all the non-Muslim women were) feel free to indulge yourself in rape and sexual torture of them. "lawful unto you are all beyond those mentioned" Allah is making it LEGAL for Muslims to go ahead and rape Non-Muslim women by Divine Law!

One shudders to imagine what kind of minds invented such utterly sadistic and disgusting ideas.

Mohammed justified all his crimes against the Jews with more of Allah's revelations. Although the following Surahs were not revealed at the same time as the Massacre of Banu Quraizyah, they nevertheless give a general idea of the Prophet's views on Jews and why it is perfectly fine to kill, loot and rape them.

Koran 5:51
O you who believe! Take not the Jews and Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is one of them. Lo allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.

Koran 5:64
The Jews say: "Allah's hand is fettered." It is THEIR hands that are fettered and they are ACCURSED for saying so. Nay, but both his (Allah's) hands are spread in bounty. He bestoweth as he will. That which hath been revealed unto thee from thy Lord is certain to increase the contumacy and belief of many of them, And We have cast among them (The Jews) Enmity and Hatred till the day of Resurrection. As often as they light a fire for war, Allah extinguishes it!

The above verses clearly demonstrate the Muslim's hatred of Jews as prescribed by their Prophet. They also expose the hollow claims of Muslims, about Islam being a peaceful religion that always co-existed with Judaism and Christanity. The innumerable, unwarranted massacres of Jews by Mohammed, tell this story in the clearest terms. These historical events form the basis of the Islamic code of behaviour. Therefore the recent genocide of Hindus, Christians and Jews by Muslims all over the world should come as no surprise whatsoever.

Next week we will explore more such exploits of the "Apostle of Peace" and assess the depth of the darkness into which he had flung the Land of Arabia.

The Works "The Glorious Quran" by Mohammed Marmaduke Pickthall, "The Meaning of the Glorious Quran" by Abdullah Yusuf Ali, "Mohammed" by Maxime Rodinson, and "Muhammad" by Martin Lings have been used to compose this article.

Now if you can find similar claims against Jesus Id like to see them. The same religion indeed.

[Ser Clegane]

Now if you can find similar claims against Jesus Id like to see them. The same religion indeed.

Hmm ... I am not quite sure if a comparison of Jesus and Mohammed is really valid as Jesus (according to Christian beliefs) is the son of God while Mohammed is a Prophet.

BTW, if you look at the Old Testament you will find quite a lot of "gore" (e.g., the killing of Egyptian first-borns - really charming).

Both Christianity and Islam seem to provide justification of brutality and suppression if one intends them to use them as a tool for such things.

Fortunately most Christians focus their attention on the parts of the Bible that promote peace and love - as do most Muslims with their religion.
Of course the peaceful Christians and Muslims seldomly make it to the headlines...

[Devastatin Dave]

First of all Isalm is very different from Judiasm and Christianity. Im sorry if you cant handle the truth about Mohamed.

What do you call someoe who marries a 6 year old. At least he waited until she was 9 to have sex with her.

I belive this qualifies him as a mureder and war monger.



Now if you can find similar claims against Jesus Id like to see them. The same religion indeed.

Careful with giving the truth Gawain, your warning level will go up like your's truelly, its only proper to point out the short commings of Christians, Americans, or conservatives on this board, remember? ~D

I still believe that if you justify your actions when killing persons by religious means, whether you be Christian, Jewish, Muslim, or whatever, then you're evil. Does that mean that all Catholics are evil because of the Crusades, nope. Does that mean that all Muslims are evil because of the actions of the terrorist of 911, nope. But the FACT that Muhammed did murder and pillage those who did not submit to HIS religious beliefs or faith seems to be constantly overlooked by the MANY anti Christian, anti Western, anti Isreal crowd on this board. But thats to be expected...

[Proletariat]

\
Both Christianity and Islam seem to provide justification of brutality and suppression if one intends them to use them as a tool for such things.


I think with The Bible this only applies to the Old Testament. Jesus said something to the effect of 'turn the other cheek' if your neighbor punches you, as opposed to the old method of 'eye for an eye.'

Probably why most Christians nowadays subscribe to the peaceful aspect you mention.

Why God changed his mind so arbitrarily on this is one of the many bizarre contradictions I can't reconcile with this faith. It's as if he had a son, popped a valium, and then decided mass floods and plagues were poor evangelistic tools and decided to go with altruism.

[Devastatin Dave]

Fortunately most Christians focus their attention on the parts of the Bible that promote peace and love - as do most Muslims with their religion.
Of course the peaceful Christians and Muslims seldomly make it to the headlines...

Great point, much like the fact that the people following both faiths are HUMAN, we are all in a condition of sin. No matter the "best" of any person or group of people, we all have our faults. Will the disconnect of different faiths ever be bridged, I believe it will. When will it? The Rapture....

[Devastatin Dave]

Why God changed his mind so arbitrarily on this is one of the many bizarre contradictions I can't reconcile with this faith. It's as if he had a son, popped a valium, and then decided mass floods and plagues were poor evangelistic tools and decided to go with altruism.

Better marketing advice!!! ~D

[Ser Clegane]

I think with The Bible this only applies to the Old Testament. Jesus said something to the effect of 'turn the other cheek' if your neighbor punches you, as opposed to the old method of 'eye for an eye.'

True - but as those who claim that Islam is a violent religion tend to freely pick their "favourite" sections of the Qu'ran - why shouldn't people who chose to bash Christianity claim the same right?

Seems that religions offer something for everybody's gusto - and the behaviour of people who claim to just follow their religion says more about the character of the poeple than about the religion as such.

[Proletariat]

True - but as those who claim that Islam is a violent religion tend to freely pick their "favourite" sections of the Qu'ran - why shouldn't people who chose to bash Christianity claim the same right?

Seems that religions offer something for everybody's gusto - and the behaviour of people who claim to just follow their religion says more about the character of the poeple than about the religion as such.


Well put, but I don't think anyone here truly just hates Muslims. They're the 'flavor of the month' for lunatic religions right now. Sure, you can find lone homicidal Christians and so on, but there isn't institutionalized terorrism coming out of any other religion but Islam.

I agree every religion has it's share of rotten apples, but right now Islam could use a period of 'enlightenment' more than anybody. Look how long it took for any formal denunciation of 9/11 from any prominent Muslim leader.

[Tribesman]

How many times was the US attacked before it actually retaliated?
Crazed rabbit ; you seem to forget that in each of the instances you listed the US retaliated .

but I don't think anyone here truly just hates Muslims.
Prole ; I think that may be wishful thinking unfortunately .

[Papewaio]

BTW, if you look at the Old Testament you will find quite a lot of "gore" (e.g., the killing of Egyptian first-borns - really charming).


That was done against the Jews not by the Jews. Mixing up the perps for the victims should be left to the Judicial System...

[Papewaio]

Well put, but I don't think anyone here truly just hates Muslims. They're the 'flavor of the month' for lunatic religions right now. Sure, you can find lone homicidal Christians and so on, but there isn't institutionalized terorrism coming out of any other religion but Islam.

I agree every religion has it's share of rotten apples, but right now Islam could use a period of 'enlightenment' more than anybody. Look how long it took for any formal denunciation of 9/11 from any prominent Muslim leader.

Timothy McVeigh just spontaneously got up and blew up a building without any religious influence?

The Catholic IRA are a terrorist organisation which seems to escape excommunication.

The KKK do hate crimes and call themselves Christians while prancing around burning crosses wearing pillow cases on their heads.

[Steppe Merc]

Gawain, and you say Jag's stuff is biased! ~:eek:
How about a real historian's anyalisis that obviously doesn't hate Muslims? Who is this guy?
Besides, everything has to be taken in historical context. It was normal for people of all religions to take female captives, and to execute their captives, etc. It would be like humans centuries from now, when they live in a utopian, paridise of peace, looking back on Bush's ordering the war in Iraq which killed innocents and condeming all Americans as being barbaric.
And what about Abraham? What sort of person would willingly kill his son? The Bible is hardly very peaceful. Jesus was the exception, not the rule to Christian's leaders in his peaceful message.

Also, that author seemed to forget how tolerant Muslims were of other religions during many times in their history, especially Jews. Far more so than most Christian nations of that time. And of course that Islam spread far more advanced philosphy and medicine and culture through out the world, including the West...

And Gawain, to me, they are practically the same. They all stem from Judiasm, and the Koran incorprates a lot of the same stuff. They all believe in one God, and both Muslims and Christians view Jesus as an important person (admidetly they don't give him the same rank, but still). Compared to some of the other religions of the world, they are very similar. It's just different takes on essentially the same dogma.

edit: Pape, the whole thing when their in Egypt, and God comes and gives plague and kills a whole bunch of people is what I think he's talking about.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Hmm ... I am not quite sure if a comparison of Jesus and Mohammed is really valid as Jesus (according to Christian beliefs) is the son of God while Mohammed is a Prophet.

Only too Christains. Muslims are taught he is merely a prohpet and both are the founders of their religions and these religions are based on what they did and said. The comparison is totally valid.


True - but as those who claim that Islam is a violent religion tend to freely pick their "favourite" sections of the Qu'ran - why shouldn't people who chose to bash Christianity claim the same right?

You dont need the Qu'ran. Just look at how the religion was startded and the actions of those who started it. One is a religion based on peace the other on war. One by a pacifist the other by a general and murderer. One who would rather die than hurt another the other to kill those who oppose oe oppress them. You want to cherry pick through the New Testament be my guest as thats the only text that applies to Jesus and Christains. Bring it on. Ill give you a hand the best your going to come up with is Revelations.


Why God changed his mind so arbitrarily on this is one of the many bizarre contradictions I can't reconcile with this faith. It's as if he had a son, popped a valium, and then decided mass floods and plagues were poor evangelistic tools and decided to go with altruism.

Proletariat I take it you arent a christain. Jesus came to absolve mankind of original sin. He was the messiah . It seems god decided to forgive man and sent his son to show man the word and the way to heaven. He was no longer a god of vengance. It was all fortold in the old testament and thats why thats included in the bible.

[AntiochusIII]

Only too Christains. Muslims are taught he is merely a prohpet and both are the founders of their religions and these religions are based on what they did and said. The comparison is totally valid.If and only if based on historical arguments. I do not take theological claims of superiority.


You dont need the Qu'ran. Just look at how the religion was startded and the actions of those who started it. One is a religion based on peace the other on war. One by a pacifist the other by a general and murderer. One who would rather die than hurt another the other to kill those who oppose oe oppress them. You want to cherry pick through the New Testament be my guest as thats the only text that applies to Jesus and Christains. Bring it on. Ill give you a hand the best your going to come up with is Revelations.I thought I have stated that the climate in which Christianity and Islam were born are extremely different. Christianity was born into an age of one state: Rome, rules above all. The Bible, written by later followers, were filled with hateful indirect attacks on Rome, but shows no real teachings to fight against them simply with one reason: they can't. Instead, Jesus taught about tolerance and, rather, hope for a better afterlife reflects the hopelessness of the search for self-sovereignty by Jewish society in that situation. Islam, on the other hand, was born into a political vacuum and into a tribal, nomadic society in a fragmented and dangerous lands. This presents both opportunity and danger, in which to grab it the religion needs to be aggressive and uniting.

[GodsPetMonkey]

You dont need the Qu'ran. Just look at how the religion was startded and the actions of those who started it. One is a religion based on peace the other on war. One by a pacifist the other by a general and murderer. One who would rather die than hurt another the other to kill those who oppose oe oppress them. You want to cherry pick through the New Testament be my guest as thats the only text that applies to Jesus and Christains. Bring it on. Ill give you a hand the best your going to come up with is Revelations.


Actually one was founded by a carpenter come prophet, the other a merchant come prophet, and Mohammed's military skills are highly debatable. Propaganda existed back then, and no one is going to follow someone who when the fight, can't even achieve a glorious victory and keep in mind the times, the Eastern Roman Empire and the Persians had been in an almost continuos war for a long time. Your religion of peace was far from it, regardless of the intentions of its founders, any group, given the resources to become powerful, will use them. The Roman Empire didn't become peace loving pacifists under and after Constantine. The lesson here is powerful people will use anything to their own advantage and the bible and its equivalents are the literary version of statistics, they can be used to prove anything, and support almost any position.

[Kanamori]

Yet some talk of the ten commandments as they appear in Exodus, not as they are in the New Testament. Many, many, others quote the Old Testament when it is to their advantage and it fits their cause.


So peace-loving...

"Joshua then pronounced this oath, saying, 'Cursed before the LORD be anyone who tries to build this city — this Jericho! At the cost of his firstborn he shall lay its foundation, and at the cost of his youngest he shall set up its gates!' So, the LORD was with Joshua; and his fame was in all the land." (Joshua 6:26-27)

"Then the LORD said to Joshua, "Stretch out the sword that is in your hand toward Ai; for I will give it into your hand." And Joshua stretched out the sword that was in his hand toward the city. As soon as he stretched out his hand, the troops in ambush rose quickly out of their place and rushed forward. They entered the city, took it, and at once set the city on fire. So when the men of Ai looked back, the smoke of the city was rising to the sky. They had no power to flee this way or that, for the people who fled to the wilderness turned back against the pursuers. When Joshua and all Israel saw that the ambush had taken the city and that the smoke of the city was rising, then they turned back and struck down the men of Ai. And the others came out from the city against them; so they were surrounded by Israelites, some on one side, and some on the other; and Israel struck them down until no one was left who survived or escaped." (Joshua 8:18-23)

"The total of those who fell that day, both men and women, was twelve thousand — all the people of Ai." (Joshua 8:25)

Yatta, yatta, yatta. I could quote Joshua ad infitum.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

If and only if based on historical arguments. I do not take theological claims of superiority.

No based on the theological teachings of each religion.


Yet some talk of the ten commandments as they appear in Exodus, not as they are in the New Testament. Many, many, others quote the Old Testament when it is to their advantage and it fits their cause.

You see you have to go back before Christianity.


Propaganda existed back then, and no one is going to follow someone who when the fight, can't even achieve a glorious victory and keep in mind the times

Really. Were things that different back then? I guess thats why Kerry and the Democrats lost.


Christianity was born into an age of one state: Rome, rules above all.

No It didnt. I guess Attila was a myth. Rome never ruled the known world or even came close.

[AntiochusIII]

No based on the theological teachings of each religion.In which you, like me, already possess a bias thanks to our reliance on one religion's morality. That will bring no real picture, in my opinion, unless, of course, basic humans like us could throw away the entirety of our (one religion-based) morality for a while to see a neutral picture.


No It didnt. I guess Attila was a myth. Rome never ruled the known world or even came close.Attila the Hun was 400 years away from that age; the difference of a Rome in decay for a throng of reasons and Rome at its proudest moment , Augustus' reign, was immense. I'm sure you know Augustus was one of the greatest leaders of any empire ever. He literally created an entire empire, though practically inherited a framework of hundreds of capable men and institutions especially his late uncle Gaius Julius Caesar. Then, he turned this "inheritance" into an empire covering much of the world known to the Romans, and the Jews. The Jewish community did not see anyone who could possibly defeat Roman occupation of the known world at the time. So the cause for "freedom" was hopeless, and returns to my argument.

The Parthians did not count, for Rome was on the expanding side on all borders (although also stabilized in Augustus' time), and the Jews could care less who were the Parthians, at the time.

Edit: Indeed, what difference could it be from the eye of a Jew, in which all he could see ever was Romans ruling here and there. He did not see the northern German forest, nor did he see the splendid Parthian capital on that popular site of capitals on the banks of the Tigris. He did not have the knowledge of the true situation and size of the world as we now know. From this perspective, I'm certain I'm right that Rome was all-powerful from his eyes.

[Steppe Merc]

Well I agree that Rome was hardly all powerful... but they did certiantly control Jersusalem.
And Gawain, Revalations is really messed up, that's for sure... I know it wasn't Jesus's thing, but having a huge war where most people end up burning in hell isn't very peaceful...
In addition, a lot of things were left out. I'm willing to bet some post Jesus scriptures had violence in them. Likely not involving Jesus, but a lot of stuff was censored out. Not sure about the Koran's creation, so I can't say if that was the case there, or not.

Um, about the Parthians, I'm pretty sure some Jews served them... and the Romans didn't "defeat" the Sarmatians yet. But yeah, they were at their peak.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

know it wasn't Jesus's thing, but having a huge war where most people end up burning in hell isn't very peaceful...

That war is still to come. Revelations is an apocalyptic text.

[GodsPetMonkey]

Really. Were things that different back then? I guess thats why Kerry and the Democrats lost.

I should have said that passage was meant in a sarcastic manner...

Oh wait, your's is too isn't it...

[Proletariat]

Timothy McVeigh just spontaneously got up and blew up a building without any religious influence?

The Catholic IRA are a terrorist organisation which seems to escape excommunication.

The KKK do hate crimes and call themselves Christians while prancing around burning crosses wearing pillow cases on their heads.

Are you seriously equating Timothy McViegh's or the KKK's influence with Al Qaeda? In the US McVeigh is regarded as a despicable lunatic and the KKK is laughed at even by 'rednecks.' A politician having links with either would be butchered unmercilessly in an election.

Now tell me in what regard you think bin Laden is held in Iran or Syria or Pakistan.

Oh, but I guess all religious cultures are like that. I must just be looking at it through my American rose colored glasses.

[Proletariat]

That was done against the Jews not by the Jews. Mixing up the perps for the victims should be left to the Judicial System...

It was the Egyptian first-born that suffered the wrath of the Jewish God. The Bible did not cite a story where Ra killed the Hebrew first-born.

[bmolsson]

Are you seriously equating Timothy McViegh's or the KKK's influence with Al Qaeda? In the US McVeigh is regarded as a despicable lunatic and the KKK is laughed at even by 'rednecks.' A politician having links with either would be butchered unmercilessly in an election.

Now tell me in what regard you think bin Laden is held in Iran or Syria or Pakistan.

Oh, but I guess all religious cultures are like that. I must just be looking at it through my American rose colored glasses.


It seems to me that Osama had a rich dad, Timothy not, hence the difference in PR abilities..... ~;)

[Adrian II]

That was done against the Jews not by the Jews. Mixing up the perps for the victims should be left to the Judicial System...It's got nothing to do with 1940-45.

Read Deuteronomy 7:1-5 or 20:15-18. Then come back and say 'oops'. Mind you, this isn't some Jewish prophet speaking, it's the Jewish God himself: 'And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them.' Disgusting little character, this Jaweh. And there's more if you can read, want to read, want to understand.

But nah, let's just be nasty about Mohamed, let's abuse Rodinson's superb biography of the man to heap manure onto all Arabs. And if anybody complains, we'll start whining: 'Oh, but your Yurpeans are doing the thame thing againth uth poor innothent Americans all the time!...

Blegh. Grow up.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Timothy McVeigh just spontaneously got up and blew up a building without any religious influence?

Well theres a good chance he was recruited by Radical Islam.

http://www.jaynadavis.com/images/bookmain.jpg

#

Congressman sees Mideast tie to bombing
Wants FBI to answer questions or face Capitol Hill hearings
April 20, 2005 © 2005 WorldNetDaily.com

On the 10th anniversary of the Oklahoma City bombing, a Republican congressman planned to ask in a House floor presentation last night why the FBI ignored strong evidence of a Middle East connection to the attack that killed 171 Americans.

Rep. Dana Rohrabacher of California, chairman of the House Subcommittee on Oversight and Investigations, says if the FBI does not provide satisfactory answers to his questions, he will call for congressional hearings.

The congressman's request is based on the decade-long investigation by reporter Jayna Davis, presented in The Third Terrorist: The Middle Eastern Connection to the Oklahoma City Bombing, published by WND Books.

In the carefully documented book, Davis asserts Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols were not the lone conspirators but were part of a greater scheme involving Islamic terrorists and at least one provable link to Iraq.

Full Story in World Net Daily
#

Was Iraq Behind the Oklahoma City Bombing?

FOX NEWS April 19, 2005 By John Gibson

On Tuesday's show you heard FOX News' Rita Cosby talking about the quite shocking claims made by a group of victims' families that Iraq was at the bottom of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building bombing in Oklahoma City.


Read Deuteronomy 7:1-5 or 20:15-18. Then come back and say 'oops'. Mind you, this isn't some Jewish prophet speaking, it's the Jewish God himself: 'And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them.' Disgusting little character, this Jaweh. And there's more if you can read, want to read, want to understand.

Theres tons of this stuff in the old testament. The God of the Jews was a vengeful one. No ones denying that. But those things told Jews about history not to go out and keep killing people in the name of god if they dont convert. Islam calls for holy wars and taxes on the unbeliever and taxes on them to this day. Also you cant find anything concerning christains on this matter.

This has come up before: A reporter named Jayna Davis has a book out about it.

The whole thing stinks of Iraq. Ramzi Yousef, an Iraqi agent that was involved in the 1993 World Trade Center bombing, and his associates were allegedly talking to Terry Nichols in 1994 about how to build a fertilizer bomb.

So now the question: So if there is all this evidence, why has the U.S. government ignored it?

Full Story

[Tribesman]

Well theres a good chance he was recruited by Radical Islam.
What have you been smoking lately Gawain ?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

What have you been smoking lately Gawain ?

Come on this has been known since the whole thing started.

[Sir Moody]

I think the 3 main Reasons in order for the Middel Eastern Terrorism is as follows

1) Poverty
2) Oppression
3) Religeon


Islam was a reasonable peaceful religeon before the crusades but afterwards it became very aggressive and hasnt really moved on very far since but while it plays a role it doesnt on its self make terrorists = proven by the fact not all Muslims ARE terrorists.

the MAIN problem is the majority of the Arab nations have been oppressed for the last 2 centruies either by their own or European rulers which has lead to a HUGE margin between the poor and the Wealthy in these countries. The poor have no power, no money, no prospects. This makes them angry at the world in general - so why Angry at the West? because most of their problems are routed here - we took what we wanted from them and then cut them loose when it became too much trouble to hold onto them and then we flaunt what wealth we have everyday through the Media - its like teasing a starving dog with a Steak - eventually its going to bite you

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Islam was a reasonable peaceful religeon before the crusades

Damn I wish we had a sarcastic laugh icon.

What do you call reasonabily peacefull?

It was started by war and spread by the sword. The only reason there even were Crusades was to take back lands they had conquered.

[Beirut]

What do you call reasonabily peacefull?


You know, reasonably peaceful. Like the reasonable peaceful Christian God that is refered to on those hundreds of billions of dollar bills that all say "In God we trust" that buy the weapons that furnish the most powerful national killing machine in history that is run by a reasonably peaceful Christian nation - the United States.

That kind of reasonably peaceful. :yes:

After all, a fleet of B2s loaded with Christian nukes is far, far more peaceful that an RPG loaded with Muslim explosives.

Isn't it?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

You know, reasonably peaceful. Like the reasonable peaceful Christian God that is refered to on those hundreds of billions of dollar bills that all say "In God we trust" that buy the weapons that furnish the most powerful national killing machine in history that is run by a reasonably peaceful Christian nation - the United States.

Oh its nice to see you acknowledge that god is on our side ~;) Yes God told Bush to do these things and we the christain nation that we are, do what ever god and Bush says. I forgot we are a theocracy ~:confused:

[Byzantine Prince]

I forgot we are a theocracy ~:confused:
You and the rest of the neocons, and neocon supporters sure wish you were a theocracy. ~;)

[Gawain of Orkeny]

You and the rest of the neocons

One thing im not and thats a neocon. I suffest you look this all to bandied about phrase up and see whom it applies too.

[Sir Moody]

When i said Reasonable Peaceful i ment that Religous wars were quite rare (when compared to say Europe at the same time) and intolerance to other religeons was low - the wars still happened of course but Religeon usually didnt play apart - they were the land and resources type...

[BDC]

Power-mad, bitter leadership.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

When i said Reasonable Peaceful i ment that Religous wars were quite rare (when compared to say Europe at the same time) and intolerance to other religeons was low - the wars still happened of course but Religeon usually didnt play apart - they were the land and resources type...

They were all wars to spread Islam .To say that the Europeans fought religous wars against eachother at this time is disengenous. At this time there was no reformation and all these countries were cathloic. I submit all wars are the land and resources type...

[Beirut]

Oh its nice to see you acknowledge that god is on our side ~;) Yes God told Bush to do these things and we the christain nation that we are, do what ever god and Bush says. I forgot we are a theocracy ~:confused:

Question Number One children: What famous world leader campaigned with the slogan "What would Jesus do? before invading Iraq and exercizing some heavy-duty military muscle?

:bobby2: "Yep, no Christianity present. Move along folks, nothing to see here."

[Gawain of Orkeny]

What famous world leader campaigned with the slogan "What would Jesus do? before invading Iraq and exercizing some heavy-duty military muscle?

Your usual disjointed attempt at making a point. Did Bush campaign on the slogan What would Jesus do as regards invading Iraq? Or was that on some other topic or are you refering to the fact that he prayed to god for guidance, heaven forbid?

[Beirut]

Your usual disjointed attempt at making a point.

I'm not disjointed at all, I've a got a beauty rolled up and tucked away waiting for me after dinner.


Did Bush campaign on the slogan What would Jesus do as regards invading Iraq? Or was that on some other topic or are you refering to the fact that he prayed to god for guidance, heaven forbid?

Methinks you would have a hard time disassociating Bush and his Conservative Right following from Christianity and it's impact on their politics. Bush played the Christian card at every opportunity and used Christianity as a political tool both for change and for keeping things the same.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Methinks you would have a hard time disassociating Bush and his Conservative Right following from Christianity and it's impact on their politics. Bush played the Christian card at every opportunity and used Christianity as a political tool both for change and for keeping things the same.

He didnt use it as an excuse for war which seems to be your implication here.

[Byzantine Prince]

He used words like "evil" so yes he did implicate a certain religious term.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

He used words like "evil" so yes he did implicate a certain religious term.

So if your not religous theres no such thing as evil . Is evil only recognized by Christains?

[Byzantine Prince]

Basically, yes. Saying something is evil is about as naive as saying they are going to hell. If you are a high ranking politician and the best you can come up with is just simply "you guys are part of an evil axis" then that's pretty poor.

[Steppe Merc]

I'm not disjointed at all, I've a got a beauty rolled up and tucked away waiting for me after dinner.
~D
Wouldn't it make sense to have before dinner? But I guess that's what dessert is for, to satisfy those munchies...

And Gawain so you don't think that the Crusades had any negative impacts on Islam? I think it's the exact opposite. Religious warriors were far more prevalent after the Crusades, and culture faultered, as I said in my post on the bottom of page 4, I think.

[Beirut]

He didnt use it as an excuse for war which seems to be your implication here.

I think GWB has used religion as perhaps not an excuse, but certainly as a base building tool for much of what he does. Agreed, he did not say "Jesus wants me to invade Iraq", but it is sure that those who did push for the invasion, short of the obvious non-Christian neo-cons, were also of the Christian right. And they identify and differentiate themselves from others with this label.

I'm not sure its fair to go as far as you do, directly connecting Mohammed to present day suicide bombers yet say that Bush's views of Christianity play no part in his actions, some of which are very violent. What's good for the goose after all..

[Adrian II]

I think GWB has used religion as perhaps not an excuse, but certainly as a base building tool for much of what he does. Agreed, he did not say "Jesus wants me to invade Iraq", but it is sure that those who did push for the invasion, short of the obvious non-Christian neo-cons, were also of the Christian right. And they identify and differentiate themselves from others with this label.My impression has always been that the neo-cons pushed a lot harder for this war than the Christian Coalition, but as an outsider I may be mistaken. I don't want to play the your link versus mine game, Beirut, but I would like to see a good link that connects the CC to the invasion in more than general terms. Some authoritative document by these fellows, some keynote speech in which they call it a Christian duty or something.

[Papewaio]

It was the Egyptian first-born that suffered the wrath of the Jewish God. The Bible did not cite a story where Ra killed the Hebrew first-born.

Have you read the story of Moses? The Egyptians where out killing the Jewish first borns.

Then after years and years of oppression. God finally gave the Egyptians several chances to let the Jews go. First warnings then a series of escalating plagues. Tough but fair.

[bmolsson]

Tough but fair.


Made me smile.... God is a real gentleman..... ~D

[AntiochusIII]

Made me smile.... God is a real gentleman..... ~DI think Gawain mentions that Jehovah is a vengeful god. That is not so surprising to me seeing how the the world of the Jews that he evolved from was very cruel. An anger on such a cruel world of exiles, hardships, warfares, and atrocities must be vent somewhere and what's better than venting it on a literary religious text, claiming vengeance of God?

By the way, I think both sides lost their first-born, the Hebrew first, and the Egyptians in revenge by Jehovah, I think...

[Fragony]

My vote, 'minority complex' is not among the choices.

[barocca]

Vote #1 for Gah!!!

[Ironside]

Then after years and years of oppression. God finally gave the Egyptians several chances to let the Jews go. First warnings then a series of escalating plagues. Tough but fair.

You missed the part were God manipulates Pharao's mind so that the Phararo won't accept Moses' demands. ~D Very fair. :dizzy2:

It does only state that God made this the first time though, but it never mentions that He doesn't do it for the remaining times too.

God isn't exactly nice in the OT :shrug:

[Proletariat]

Have you read the story of Moses? The Egyptians where out killing the Jewish first borns.


Yes, have you? Or even Adrian's post? Are you familiar with Passover?

[Papewaio]

Yes I have read it... one of the first points about Moses is how he came to be a Prince of Eygpt and what events lead him to being adopted...

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Have you read the story of Moses? The Egyptians where out killing the Jewish first borns.

They were? Are you sure you dont have this confused with Herod killing all the male babies because he was after Jesus? In the story of passover god sends death to ALL first born in Egypt. Only by spreading blood above your door would it' passover' your home. It killed all the egyptian 1st born and left the Jews alone. I dont remember anything about the Egyptians killing Jewish first borns. Maybe you could provide a link.

[Papewaio]

Gawain why was Moses floating down the Nile?

[Papewaio]

Moses was born in a very difficult time: Pharaoh had ordered that all male children born to the Hebrew slaves should be drowned in the river (Ex. 1:22).

[Proletariat]

So that's why you posted this?




Originally Posted by Papewaio



Originally Posted by Ser Clegane

BTW, if you look at the Old Testament you will find quite a lot of "gore" (e.g., the killing of Egyptian first-borns - really charming).

That was done against the Jews not by the Jews. Mixing up the perps for the victims should be left to the Judicial System...

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Moses was born in a very difficult time: Pharaoh had ordered that all male children born to the Hebrew slaves should be drowned in the river (Ex. 1:22).

Yes but you claimed that the egyptians were killing the Jewish first born not all male children. This had nothing to do with passover.

[Papewaio]

Yes but you claimed that the egyptians were killing the Jewish first born not all male children. This had nothing to do with passover.

I never said it was passover I was talking about who started it. Nor did the Jews go around killing the Eygptians it was God.

The thing I got wrong is that it wasn't just first born it was all males.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

The thing I got wrong is that it wasn't just first born it was all males.

I think you still have it wrong. It was only all male babies. If it were all males then the Jews wouldnt be here. Anyway thats why you confused me. And the egypitians started it by enslaving the Jews

[Papewaio]

Every male baby I implicitly stated...

Anyhow Moses was born a slave in Eygpt and became a prince of Eygpt...

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Every male baby I implicitly stated...

Your right I read it wrong . My apologies.

[Papewaio]

~D No worries mate

More on Moses:


Moses was born in a very difficult time: Pharaoh had ordered that all male children born to the Hebrew slaves should be drowned in the river (Ex. 1:22). Yocheved hid Moses for three months, and when she could no longer hide him, she put him in a little ark and placed it on the river where Pharaoh's daughter bathed (Ex. 2:2-3). Pharaoh's daughter found the child and had compassion on him (Ex. 2:6). At the suggestion of Moses's sister Miriam, Pharaoh's daughter hired Yocheved to nurse Moses until he was weaned (Ex. 2:7-10). Yocheved instilled in Moses a knowledge of his heritage and a love of his people that could not be erased by the 40 years he spent in the antisemitic court of Pharaoh.

Little is known about Moses's youth. The biblical narrative skips from his adoption by Pharaoh's daughter to his killing of an Egyptian taskmaster some 40 years later. One traditional story tells that when he was a child, sitting on Pharaoh's knee, Moses took the crown off of Pharaoh's head and put it on. The court magicians took this as a bad sign and demanded that he be tested: they put a brazier full of gold and a brazier full of hot coals before him to see which he would take. If Moses took the gold, he would have to be killed. An angel guided Moses's hand to the coal, and he put it into his mouth, leaving him with a life-long speech impediment (Ex. 4:10).

Although Moses was raised by Egyptians, his compassion for his people was so great that he could not bear to see them beaten by Pharaoh's taskmasters. One day, when Moses was about 40 years old, he saw an Egyptian beating a Hebrew slave, and he was so outraged that he struck and killed the Egyptian (Ex. 2:11-12). But when both his fellow Hebrews and the Pharaoh condemned him for this action, Moses was forced to flee from Egypt (Ex. 2:14-15).

[Drisos]

This was a rather annying and rude post of mine, so I deleted it.

[Byzantine Prince]

You can have anal with girls ~D . What's wrong with you Drisos? Oh wait I forgot you don't exist. ~:cheers:

[Ser Clegane]

@ drisos & BP:
:stop:
I doubt that your sexual preferences are major factors that lead to muslim terrorism so I would appreciate if you could discuss them via PM and not in this thread

[Drisos]

I'll honour this request Ser clegane:

Sorry BP! I shouldn't have said that, because I don't mean it, because it's idiot, and because I don't have anything against homoseksual people.

:embarassed: . . . Shame on me . . . :embarassed:

OK, I'll edit that post now and behave better.

[Shambles]

relegion nearly got my vote but you seperated them all up.
i dont think thats right,
But never mind.
I voted rejection of western ways.

I know i hate people telling me what to do and would probably hit some 1 after a while.

[Leet Eriksson]

This thread is full of idiots, and it reeks with BS.

About the only that made sense here is Navaros, many dismiss him easily, but to me he makes more sense than what most right wingers spew here.

seriously why do i even bother explaining my religion? Those who don't understand, screw you.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/5/5/11120/19514

^ this guy is my hero.

[|OCS|Virus]

I would speculate that it was the way that the children were raised by the parents, what caused them to go wrong I don't know. But it is kind of the "one bad apple spoils the barrel" theory. I think that it started with the fall of mesopotamia, to the persians I believe{can anyone verify that?} and when these various counties fell, more and more people got angry, this would have had a stop put to it eventualy, untill osama bin laden and sadam came along and messed it up again, perhaps the american intervention will actualy end all of this. If they can put someone very well known by the people in a place of power, maybe they can have a life that rivals that of the uk or america or any other well developed country. {I can dream can't I?}

[Redleg]

This thread is full of idiots, and it reeks with BS.

About the only that made sense here is Navaros, many dismiss him easily, but to me he makes more sense than what most right wingers spew here.

seriously why do i even bother explaining my religion? Those who don't understand, screw you.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/5/5/11120/19514

^ this guy is my hero.

There we go - lets just insult everyone that express their opinion on a subject because you don't agree with their thoughts.

[Steppe Merc]

While I don't agree with the way he said it, I agree with him. The amount of insulting of Islam in here is crazy...

[Adrian II]

Yes I have read it... one of the first points about Moses is how he came to be a Prince of Eygpt and what events lead him to being adopted...Aha, I see you reacted to someone else when writing about mixing up Jews as perps and vics. Sorry, Papewaio.
:bow:

[Redleg]

While I don't agree with the way he said it, I agree with him. The amount of insulting of Islam in here is crazy...

No different then the amount of insults thrown at all religions by many here.

[Steppe Merc]

I would beg to disagree. With the exception of a few, I don't think I've seen quite the amount of attacks ever on Christianity than I saw on Islam here. But they are always refuted by many people, often rightly so. Yet not too many people did so here, if any.
A lot of people seem to hate Islam and Muslims from what it seems, or at least have a very biased and incorrect view towards them. I don't blame faisal getting pissed off, just as Gawain or you or any other Christian would if anyone said half the things about Christianity that some people did about Islam here.

[Redleg]

I would beg to disagree. With the exception of a few, I don't think I've seen quite the amount of attacks ever on Christianity than I saw on Islam here. But they are always refuted by many people, often rightly so. Yet not too many people did so here, if any.
A lot of people seem to hate Islam and Muslims from what it seems, or at least have a very biased and incorrect view towards them. I don't blame faisal getting pissed off, just as Gawain or you or any other Christian would if anyone said half the things about Christianity that some people did about Islam here.

Perfectly fine to get pissed off when someone degrades your religion - however when one makes a generalized statement that leads one to believe he is attempting to direct his insult at everyone - well then he is no better then the individuals who were being disrepectful to his religion.


This thread is full of idiots, and it reeks with BS.

That is what my point is. Notice I don't bash religions nor those who follow a religion because of my beliefs - however calling everyone an idiot that has posted in this thread - well is stretch.

However he is correct there are a few idiotic posts in this thread - that I have just ignored because they are obvious nothing other then BS.

[Steppe Merc]

Ah. Well in that case I agree, it was too general, and personally I'd like to see him refute some of peoples, esspesially Gawain's claim, just for personall knowledge, as I don't know as much as I'd like about Islam.

But I can't blame him for being angry, despite the fact that I agree that Faisal's statement was too general.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

esspesially Gawain's claim,

Well Ive made so many,which one are you reffereing too? ~:)

[Steppe Merc]

Well in particular that one guy's articale that I hate (the guy and the articale... ) that was very biased, and obviously not written by a real, balanced historian that had true knowledge of the time period.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Well in particular that one guy's articale that I hate (the guy and the articale... )

Link please? ~:)

[Steppe Merc]

You posted the link, man... Um, which page was it? Not sure. If you really want, tommorow I can find a link to your link... :dizzy2:

[KukriKhan]

So after 7 pages, 8 days, 69 votes, almost 200 posts ... out of 16 choices, the overall opinion of the Org Tavern is that the number 1 Contributing Factor That Leads to Muslim Terrorism is:

being a muslim


Color me stunned.


faisal, on behalf of many of the rest of the org membership: I'm sorry. Your religion has taken a sound thrashing here, without good reason.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

faisal, on behalf of many of the rest of the org membership: I'm sorry. Your religion has taken a sound thrashing here, without good reason.

It has taken a beating because Muslims around the world have let people like Bin Laden hi jack it. They have not condemned these people anywhere near hard enough. Too many Muslim clerics preach hate and war. Im not saying all or even most but certainly far too many do. It is Muslims themselves who should be the leading force in wiping these people out. They shouldnt be defending or apologising for them. If there was a Christain cult doing this you can bet Christains at least today would be the first to help eradicate them. Their giving you a bad name . Get rid of them. Every where you look in the world where theres fighting Muslims can usually be found. Why is this? It seems to me that there are as many tyoes of Muslims as there are Christains. Fourtunatley though christains dont have a few million wacked out fanatics that are willing to kill everyone who doest want to convert to their religion. Just like the guy in network its time for all Muslims around the world to go to their windows and open them wide and then shout " Im mad as hell and Im not going to take this anymore" "This is our religion and you wont use it for evil anymore."

[ichi]

What Is The #1 Contributing Factor That Leads To Muslim Terrorism?

After reading the threads in the Tavern I've come the conclusion that it is a combination of gay sperm, global warming, and erotic cheerleaders.

Muslim terrorism can only be addressed by outlawing abortion, controlling guns, and spending more time with ugly kids.

ichi :bow:

[Leet Eriksson]

I'm sorry, i was really feeling insulted, i typed that post nonvoluntarily ~;p

I did not mean to insult everyone, I am really sorry. I'll try to be more civil. :bow:

I'll just have to say one thing non of the right wingers have touched yet, why is your president best bed buddies with the saudi king? saudia is supposedly the one that started it all, right?

Steppe Merc, what claims? if someone can point me to them i'd be pleased to debunk them. I don't have much time to go through the thread, sorry about that.

[PanzerJaeger]

Aww the poor Muslims are taking a beating. ~:rolleyes:

You(generally speaking) can either take things like this constructively and realize you must reign in your radicals who preach hatred toward the west or you(generally speaking) can continue to drive yourself into the stone age.

All i have to say is be glad youre not a Christian on these boards.. youre practically untouchable in comparison.

[Shambles]

If i had my way,
Any 1 starting a post like this would be banned for provoking an argument that will inevitably lead to a bunch of idiots voting that a religion is to blame for the actions of humans,

and even though im welsh I will tell you that this is loyed george'sfault becous of how he decided to give the lands back after the fighting was done,

You cant blame A religion for the actions of some,
Most mass murderes in america were christians,

a lot of terrorists can be catholic protistant muslim christian or any other religion you may chose,
They are all just as bad and noarrow minded.

and the only reason every 1 is always fighting over religion is becous of humans,
And all in all There hasnt been anything Like The things christians did,

Burning people alive at the steak.
Forcing people to renounce their faith,
Destroying whole civilisations and Cultures,

Lay off Religious Minorities,
Becous honestly,
They aint ever going to ba able to do asmuch wrong as the christians did..

[Gawain of Orkeny]

If i had my way,
Any 1 starting a post like this would be banned for provoking an argument that will inevitably lead to a bunch of idiots voting that a religion is to blame for the actions of humans,,

Well there goes half the patrons and half the threads ~D


and the only reason every 1 is always fighting over religion is becous of humans,

If their the problem lets get rid of them.


Lay off Religious Minorities,

So now Muslims are a religous minority ? ~D


They aint ever going to ba able to do asmuch wrong as the christians did.. How can you say that. How many people are killed each year nowdays in the name of Christitanity? Is Christianity a threat to the world nowdays because radical Islam threatens to destroy the entire human race. I dont think christianity ever did that. Even with a 600 year start I would say a lot more people have been killed in the name of Alah than in the name of Jesus.

[Steppe Merc]

Steppe Merc, what claims? if someone can point me to them i'd be pleased to debunk them. I don't have much time to go through the thread, sorry about that.
Gladly. Here you go: this is the articale that I really got pissed about that:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=761142&postcount=111


All i have to say is be glad youre not a Christian on these boards.. youre practically untouchable in comparison.
Are you kidding me? We have someone advocating the destruction of all Muslims in another thread, while 14 people blamed the actions of a few sickos on his religion!
Christianity was never this heavily attacked here, except by a few. But they are often proved to be wrong. Yet almost (not everyone though, thankfully)everyone seems fine with blaming Islam here. That to me is far worse than any attacks on Christians in this forum.

[Leet Eriksson]

Clearly a biased article, Muhammed did not do these actions without reasons but let me pick it one by one:


The Muslims who had murdered Kaab Ibn Al Ashraf the famous poet of the Banu-N-Nair (See Prophet of Terror & the "Religion of Peace" Part 2)

I'm not sure if he was a famous poet, but this guy tried to assasinate the profit not once, but twice. The other threat was that he would ally with Quraysh to drive muhammed out of Medina.


Abu Rafi was an elderly man who had never done anything against Mohammed or the Muslims. He just happened to be the unfortunate target of Mohammed's plot to terrorize the Jews.

As far as my knowledge goes i have never heard of a jew called Abu Rafi in Muhammeds life, if anything the only Abu Rafi i know is his companion who also quoted hadiths of the prophet several times.


9) Massacre, Rape and Plunder of Banu-L-Mustaliq
Date: December 626 A.D.
Place: The well of Muraysi near Red Sea
Victims: The Tribe of Banu-L-Mustaliq

Mohammed attacked the Banu-L-Mustaliq because of their wealth. In a surprise raid, the Muslims drove them to the Sea. They slaughtered many members of the Banu-N-Mustaliq Tribe and looted away a booty of 2000 Camels, 5000 Sheep and 500 Women! 500 women were captured screaming and crying after they had watched their husbands and sons being slaughtered. The most beautiful captive was Juwayriyya, daughter of the chief of the Banu-L-Mustaliq. Mohammed snatched her to satisfy his own animal lust. The captured women were supposed to be returned by the Muslims upon payment of a ransom. But the night after the battle itself, Mohammed and his army raped each and every one of them. One of the men Abu Sa'id Khudri of Mohammed's army reported :

"We were lusting after women and chastity had become too hard for us, but we wanted to get the ransom money for our prisoners. So we wanted to use the "Azl" (Coitus Interruptus- where the man withdraws before ejaculating)...We asked the Prophet about it and he said: "You are not under any obligation to stop yourselves from doing it like that.." Later on the women and children were given for ransom to their envoys. They all went away to their country and not One wanted to stay although they had the choice.."

So the Great Prophet of Peace told his men it was perfectly FINE to rape women as long as you didn't ejaculate inside them (which made them pregnant). What supreme logic! Any human being with the slightest shred of morality has to be nauseated by this Man and the religion he preached. Mohammed, the supreme religious figurehead of Islam sanctions RAPE, pure and simple. Not only did the Muslims commit this horrifying crime, they decieved the Tribesmen into paying Ransom for their womenfolk, who only paid the money in a desperate attempt to save their women's honor. To call such a Prophet and his followers the epitome of Evil is probably an understatement.

I laughed at this one, seriously where is the source? Here is a quote from a reliable source(Al Bukhari):

According to Al-Bukhari, this battle is also called the battle of Al-Muraisi. It took place, according to Ibn Ishaq, in the 6th year of Hijra. Musa Ibn Uqbah, however, said, "It was in the 4th year of Hijra. Az'Zuhari said, "The story of the forged statment against Ashah (may Allah be pleased with her) was during the battle of Al-Muraisi"

According to Ibn Ishaq, the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) received news that Banu Al-Mustaliq were gathering together against him. Their leader was Al-Harith Ibn Abu Dirar, the father Juwairiyah, whom the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) married afterwards. On hearing about them, the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) went out and met them at a watering place of theirs called Al-Muraisi in the direction of Qudayd towards the shore. There was a fight and Allah put Banu Al-Mustahiq to flight and killed some of them and gave the Messenger their wives, children, and property as booty,

Al-Bukhari narrated that Abdullah Ibn Awn said, "I wrote a letter to Nafi wrote in reply to my letter that had suddenly attacked Banu Al-Mustaliq without warning while they were heedless and their cattle were being watered at the places of water. Their fighting men were killed and their women and children were taken as captives; theProphet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) got Juwairiyah on that day. Nafi said that Ibn Umar had told him the above narration and that Ibn Umar was in the army."

Al-Bukhari also narrated that Ibn Muhairiaz said "I entered the Mosque and saw Abu Sa'id Al-Khudri and sat beside him and asked him about Al-Azl (coitus interruption). Abu Sa'id said, "We went out with the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) for the Ghazwah of Abnu Al-Mustaliq and we received captives from among the Arab captives and we desired women and celibacy become hard on us and we loved to do coitus interruption. So when we intended to do coitus interruption us, we said, "'How can we do coitus interruption before asking Allah's Messenger (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) who is present among us?' We asked about it and he siad,

'It is better for you not to do so, for if any soul (until the Day of resurrection) is predestined to exist.' "

On they day of Banu AL-Mustaliq, a Muslim of Banu Kalb Ibn Awf Ibn Amir Aibn Layth Ibn Bakr was killed by a man of the Ansar of the family of Ubadah Ibn As-Samit who thought he was an enemy and killed him in error. Due to their hostility to Islam and Muhammad the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), the hypocrites tried to divide the Muslims and ruin their unity. However, the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) was keen enough to deal with their devices wisely.

On another note, rape was forbidden in whatever form.


10) Massacre of the Banu -Qurayza
Date: April-May 627 A.D.
Place: Medinah
Victims: The Last Jewish Tribe left in Medinah The Banu-Qurayza.

By this time, Mohammed had murdered or driven out all of the Jewish Tribes of Medinah, except the Banu Qurayza. It was time to eliminate this last thorn in his flesh. The Banu Qurayza had been reluctant in helping Mohammed against the Quraysh. Conveniently once again, Mohammed claimed that he had divine knowledge about a conspiracy by the Banu-Qurayza to kill him. He beseiged their fortress for Twenty-Five days. When the starving Tribe surrendered, Mohammed forced an old man from their own Tribe to pronounce Mohammed's sentence. The sentence was death to every male member of the Tribe, Slavery for every woman and child and Plunder of all their property... etc etc

These people fought against the muslims in Al Khandaq, did you expect them to return to their homes situated next to you and live in peace?

Let me give you a better comparison, the US marines cleared a huge force of insurgents, the rest retreated, the guys who retreated returned to their homes that is next to the marines base, don't they call that a security risk?

the reason explained closely:

"At the eve of the Battle of the Ditch there was only one settlement of the Jews in Madina, namely that of Banu Quraizah. They assured the Muslims of their loyalty, and entered into a fresh agreement whereunder they bound themselves to help the Muslims in the event of any attack on Madina. When the Battle of the Ditch began, they assured the Muslims that they would stand by them. They, however, avoided active assistance on one pretext or the other. In the course of the battle they acted treacherously. Huyayy b Akhtab the leader of Banu Nadir who had been expelled by the Muslims from Madina approached Banu Quraizah and prevailed upon them to cast in their lot with the Quraish and their confederates who were fighting against Islam. Banu Quraizah were heavily bribed by the Quraish and they undertook to assist the confederates in their action against the Muslims. The Holy Prophet sent Sa'ad b Muadh the chief of the Aus tribe to them to prevail upon them to bide by the their agreement which they had made with the Muslims. Confident of the victory of the confederates, the Banu Quraizah adopted a hostile attitude and declared that they knew of no treaty with the Muslims. At the stage it was not possible for the Muslims to take any action against the Jews, and the Holy Prophet chose to be quiet. It was because of the treachery of Banu Quraizah that some of the Quraish warriors were able to cross the ditch and challenge the Muslims to duel. When Ali killed Amr in single combat, and all the Quraish warriors who had crossed the ditch were forced to retreat, the Holy Prophet decided to keep a greater watch on the movements of the Banu Quraizah. When the Battle of the ditch began, the Holy Prophet shifted the women and children of Muslim families to safer quarters. The game of the Quraish was to have access to this quarter and carry away Muslim women and children as captives. Banu Quraizah undertook to help the Quraish. One day the Jews sent a spy to procure intelligence about the quarter where the Muslim women and children were lodged. Safia, an aunt of the Holy Prophet, saw the spy. She stealthily stole behind the spy, and struck a mortal blow at his head with a pole that she carried in her hand. Thereafter the Muslims strengthened the guard at the quarter. The Muslims had expelled the Banu Nadir from Madina after the Battle of Uhud and their leader Huyayy b Akhtab was a non-grate person for the Muslims. Banu Quraizah gave asylum to Huyayy who was an archenemy of the Muslims. During the course of the Battle of the Ditch, Banu Quraizah, at the instance of Huyayy, created difficulties for the Muslims."

Just a note, do not compare today with the past, its a whole different story back then.

[Meneldil]

Though I'm think there's a serious problem between Muslims and other religions, I'm quite ashamed by the amount of sillyness shown in this topic. I can hardly believe that the general lack of knowledge about Islam and Muslims leads to such a stupid bashing.

What does that (What is the #1 contributing factor that leads to Muslim terrorism? > The Muslim Religion) mean ? Do you think people turn into terrorists just because the are muslims ?
The Muslim religion, if rightly understood, is far more tolerant than Christianism. And, believe it or not, but around here, a lot of people live peacefully with muslims. Hell, I sometimes even meet muslims who don't want to cut my head or to convert me because I'm an infidel.


This post should be an option in the poll, because I can't see any muslim reading that and not wanting to blow out some guys posting here (or at least getting mad just as faisal did)...

[Shambles]

Though I'm think there's a serious problem between Muslims and other religions, I'm quite ashamed by the amount of sillyness shown in this topic. I can hardly believe that the general lack of knowledge about Islam and Muslims leads to such a stupid bashing.

What does that (What is the #1 contributing factor that leads to Muslim terrorism? > The Muslim Religion) mean ? Do you think people turn into terrorists just because the are muslims ?
The Muslim religion, if rightly understood, is far more tolerant than Christianism. And, believe it or not, but around here, a lot of people live peacefully with muslims. Hell, I sometimes even meet muslims who don't want to cut my head or to convert me because I'm an infidel.


This post should be an option in the poll, because I can't see any muslim reading that and not wanting to blow out some guys posting here (or at least getting mad just as faisal did)...

im not even religious,
And this post makes me want to become a terrorist against the people who think this way,

[Drisos]

So after 7 pages, 8 days, 69 votes, almost 200 posts ... out of 16 choices, the overall opinion of the Org Tavern is that the number 1 Contributing Factor That Leads to Muslim Terrorism is:

being a muslim


Color me stunned.

Exactly, Kukrikhan.

Muslim religion is NOT the #1 factor to muslim terrorism

Why is it called 'muslim terrorism'

it hasn't anything to do with 'muslim'

in this case you're talking about terrorisme by a muslim

[PanzerJaeger]

Wrong,

You cannot separate the religion of Islam from what the people who are trying to kill all americans are doing.

Do you honestly think the people who were willing to kill themselves just to kill others just did it for fun? Hell no, they did it because of an intense religious conviction.

You can sit there all day long and preach about how "If only these poor misguided souls followed the true religion, they would be more tolerant than Christians", but that isn't whats being done.

In a huge number of mosques around the world muslim clerics - representing the faith on earth - are teaching hatred toward the west, and toward Jews and Americans in particular. That doesn't happen in any other religion.

The things that are taken for granted in Muslim mosques that are said about Jews would get the pope booted out of the vatican if he said the same thing.

Some of you have misconstrued this poll. Those, or at least I, who voted for the muslim religion are not saying that being a muslim makes one a terrorist, but that the Islam that is taught in many areas is, as the poll suggested, the #1 contributing factor to turning these young men and women into jihadists.

If that shocks or disgusts you, i suggest you step out of the politically correct bubble you are living in. 9/11 style attacks will never stop unless we get to the root of the problem, and if that offends or makes some people uncomfortable, too damned bad. :bow:

[Meneldil]

As I said, there's problem with the Muslim population, but as I said, it's likely not because of Islam. I don't think I'm living in a bubble, as my country is confronted to the issues caused by muslims everyday.

Just for your information, a lot of people who are not muslims hate the western world aswell. Just look at Navaros (or whatever is his name). I wish this guy will never be elected president or something, cause it would be Iran².
A lot of African dislike you and me aswell (they probably hate me more than you, since France was a colonial power, and still has a lot of links with subsaharian africa), though they are christians.
China hates us, but they do as if it wasn't really important, until they're ready to kick everyone else's butt (if you didn't not have had the luck to listen the new chinese president speech, let me explain clearly : Occident is our enemy, and we must get as powerful as possible so they aren't a treat anymore").

This feeling is caused by a whole lot of reasons, and islam is just a kind of trigger. For the 3rd world people, Occident is guilty of all the bad things that happen and happened to them (just see the "Kigdom of Heaven" issue. Some muslims are explaining the level of under-developement of their countries by a war that happened 1.000 years ago). This may be true (personnaly, I do think the colonial empire had a big and negative impact on the 3rd world) or wrong, but as long as some people will live in total ignorance, poverty and bigotry, or under the domination of a regime that use occident as a way to explain its bad/stupid/tyranical policy, there will be terrorism.

To me, this problem is endless. I can't really see a realistic or optimistic solution to this.

[Colovion]

it's really hot in the middle east

people get upset easily in hotter climates

:D

[Shambles]

listen im not religious,
but there are times when id happily blow my self up to get rid of a goverment,

People dont like being opressed,
and america Tries to tell us (the world) what to do when they cant even keep there own people in order,
Every 1 hates america, I mean the people are mostly fine, But you get right idiots Coming out and saying things like, Its the Muslim relegion thats to blame,
When its the stupid americans sticking ther nose in where its not wanted all the Time,
Why dont you go pick on rusia or vietnam agian. or cuba.

You bomb the Cr*p out of muslim inhabited countrys for like 20 years,
and then you say The terorism is becous of relgion,

Well its not, You lot started a war,
And this is how they fight it,
Its hard to comprehend the way some peopple think .

I guess to you american gang members go round shooting eachother and risking their lives becous of their religion

it is rediculous,
You cant blame religion for the actions of humans,
And you cant blame parents for making children Ignorant,

People use the fact that they have a religion to be nasty to people,
christians are the leading example of this,
Then you get idiots saying the devil made me do it,
And becous in the western world this just wont cut the ice any more,
You find reasons like
Some kid on the internet says sadam has got weapons of mass destruction.

Religion may be an excuse humans use becous they are Evil vendictive and teritorial.
But really Religion is not why they do these things,
Its just a handy excuse so being a a**hole dosent sound so bad.


Just to quote this quikly

"If that shocks or disgusts you, i suggest you step out of the politically correct bubble you are living in. 9/11 style attacks will never stop unless we get to the root of the problem, and if that offends or makes some people uncomfortable, too damned bad. "

I agreee
Get the root.
Remoove america,
And theirs no problem
makes you uncomfortable?
to bad

[Templar Knight]

so its nothing to do with religion at all?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

As I said, there's problem with the Muslim population, but as I said, it's likely not because of Islam.

Your right its the Jews fault. LOL
What do they use to back up what they do? The US constitution? Its because some people look for the evil it seems in the Koran and preach it as the true religion. Once more until moderate Muslims take control of their own religion and make these people total outcasts this will never stop. Mulsims around the world are as much to blame as the average German citizen was for Hitler and the Nazis taking and staying in power. Only they can fix this problem. If not it will never go away. If Islam is truly a religion of peace its time for all Mulims around the world to take responsibility for the criminals among them and root them out for their own good.


People dont like being opressed,

Yes Bin Laden was very oppressed. As were most of the terrorists on 911. I dont think there was a poor person among them. If anyone has been oppressed through out history its the Jews and they never resorted to this type of thing.

[Steppe Merc]

:wall:
The religion is just an excuse. These people would still do it anyway, regardless. If they were Christians, and the situation was reversed, these people would still do it. Their religion is irrelevant.
And how are the Muslims to blame, any more than the Germans were? I don't get you. The Germans didn't rise up and kick out Hitler. Does that mean the Germans were bad? I don't really get what you're saying...

Faisal, thank you for the information. :bow:


(just see the "Kigdom of Heaven" issue. Some muslims are explaining the level of under-developement of their countries by a war that happened 1.000 years ago).
Agreed, it didn't cause the underdevolpment. But in my opinon, the Crusades started the hatred that is still shown in this thread, and thus is main cause of terrorism. Though I do think that the Crusades and the Mongols did slow down Islamic advancement, the colonials did far more.


If that shocks or disgusts you, i suggest you step out of the politically correct bubble you are living in. 9/11 style attacks will never stop unless we get to the root of the problem, and if that offends or makes some people uncomfortable, too damned bad. :bow:
Everything is Islams fault, is the message that I'm getting from you and Gawain and a whole bunch of others. To me, that is total BS. Islam has nothing to do with it, and I will stand by that opinon.
So what do you want to do? Convert all Muslims to your precious religion, which is perfect of course, and kill all the ones that disagree, and that will make it all better?
All to make you feel more secure? So you can use the oft and tired catchphrase of preventing another 9/11?
You condem thousands of innocents for the actions of people who have nothing to do with religion, and who would be doing the same things if they were Chrisitan, aethists, Jewish or pagan. There will always be sick people in this world, and religion has nothing to do with it.

Faisal, I apologize for what has been said about your religion. I'm really pissed off right now, and I hope you can understand that not everyone from my country feels this way.

And to PJ and Gawain and a whole bunch of other people: I do not intend to insult or offend anyone. But if I do, please keep in mind that I, though I'm an evil aethist liberal, am deeply offended by the, in my mind, baseless attacks on a religion and it's people, despite the fact that I do not follow it. If possible, just keep in mind how insulted a Muslim would feel by reading your words, or how insulted you would feel if I said half of these things about Christianity.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Everything is Islams fault, is the message that I'm getting from you and Gawain and a whole bunch of others. To me, that is total BS. Islam has nothing to do with it, and I will stand by that opinon.

You have a selective memory it seems. I say radical Islam is the problem and many other Muslims can be blamed for letting them get away with. I dont find them directly responsible anymore than Im responsible for what Bush does. How can you say Islam has nothing to do with it? Its the basis of what they do. That they read it incorrectly is not the point. They are using the Muslim holy text as an excuse to murder people. You cant tell me that has NOTHING to do with Islam. If they were christains and were using the bible for the same purpose I would not claim that christianity has nothing to do with it. Especialy if christains around the world hated the US and Israel. Again where theres war and fighting in the world today you can usually find Islamo Faschists involved somewhere. More people have been killed in the name of religion than any other reason in war. Its not just Islam . But it seems to be their turn to kill.

[Byzantine Prince]

There's Christian terrorists and there's Muslim terrorists. I don't see what the religion has to do with the act itself. Religion is simply a great uniter of these people. Without it they wouldn't haev anything in common and they wouldn't need to terrorize to get their way.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

There's Christian terrorists and there's Muslim terrorists.

What christain terrorists are afoot today using the bible to kill people? You may find a loon here or there who bombed an abortion clinic but thats hardly represenitive of chrisianity.


Religion is simply a great uniter of these people.

I thought they were the vast minority that supportted terrorism? So then they are united ?

You have to be the ost confusing person Ive met on these boards. After all that you say this.


Without it they wouldn't haev anything in common and they wouldn't need to terrorize to get their way.

Without Islam they wouldnt need to terroize to get their way ~:confused: Or whats the It mean in that sentence? If you try to give me religion I will tell you now that Islam is their relgion. Again if they were christains the same would apply.

[Byzantine Prince]

This sounds like a great discussion. I don't want it to overbeard.

What christain terrorists are afoot today using the bible to kill people? You may find a loon here or there who bombed an abortion clinic but thats hardly represenitive of chrisianity.
They don't have to use the Bible to kill people. There plenty of Christian terrorists all over Europe. There's northern Ireland, the Basque province in Spain and many other smaller ones everywhere minorites exist.



I thought they were the vast minority that supportted terrorism? So then they are united ?

They are supported because they are on the side of the people that feel opressed. Again religion is just heir unifier in a very flat way.


You have to be the most confusing person Ive met on these boards.
I make perfect sense to me. Maybe we just think differently which is perfectly reasonable really.



Without Islam they wouldnt need to terrorize to get their way ~:confused: Or whats the It mean in that sentence? If you try to give me religion I will tell you now that Islam is their relgion. Again if they were christains the same would apply.
Islam is their unifier just like being of Basque descendants puts you in a group. When one does something positive for the group they are considered great even if that goes against everything they stand for religiously or morally. And really if you think about it the 9/11 attacks are against the Kor'an, so it has nothing to do with them somehow using the dogma of the religion itself.

[PanzerJaeger]

Well Steppe im sorry youre upset, but i cannot understand how you come to the conclusions that you do.

The religion is just an excuse. These people would still do it anyway, regardless. If they were Christians, and the situation was reversed, these people would still do it. Their religion is irrelevant.

How do you explain the fact that it has not happened? There are many Christian fundamentalists in the world, why arent they bombing Mecca? Even after 9/11 and all the rest we have not seen any Christian fundamentalist retaliatory attacks against Muslims. I see no basis in that statement.

And how are the Muslims to blame, any more than the Germans were? I don't get you. The Germans didn't rise up and kick out Hitler. Does that mean the Germans were bad? I don't really get what you're saying...

Yes they were. On a personal level, i would argue most were not, but they made bad leadership choices as a nation. Muslims in the middle east are making bad leadership choices by allowing such radical clerics to preach hate on such a large scale.

Everything is Islams fault, is the message that I'm getting from you and Gawain and a whole bunch of others. To me, that is total BS. Islam has nothing to do with it, and I will stand by that opinon.

First of all no one said everything is Islam's fault, where do you get that? The title of the thread is the #1 contributing factor that causes it. I think most would agree its a mixture of many of the factors i listed.

Second, the 9/11 hijackers prayed constantly before they committed their crimes. They were not just bad apples, they were fully committed to their religion - from all accounts i have read. They were good students and smart. The only thing that seems to have pushed them into that attack was their firm belief in the brand of Islam they were taught.

Youll have to forgive me if i find it hard to believe people who had read the Koran several times and chose to bring it with them to their death had nothing to do with the religion.

So what do you want to do? Convert all Muslims to your precious religion, which is perfect of course, and kill all the ones that disagree, and that will make it all better?

Whose precious religion? Im not religious at all. Simply because I can draw negative conclusions about Islam does not mean I have to be some radical Christian.

The choice as to what to do about it is in the hands of the Muslims in the middle east, unless they choose to do nothing and then we will be forced to do what we have to to defend ourselves.

All to make you feel more secure? So you can use the oft and tired catchphrase of preventing another 9/11?

Now preventing another 9/11 is simply a catchphrase. Oh how easily we forget such horrible things.. :no:

You condem thousands of innocents for the actions of people who have nothing to do with religion, and who would be doing the same things if they were Chrisitan, aethists, Jewish or pagan. There will always be sick people in this world, and religion has nothing to do with it.

Again I cannot see how you draw the conclusion that this would happen no matter the religion. There are fundamentalists of all religions out there.. only fundamentalists from one religion attacked America.

And to PJ and Gawain and a whole bunch of other people: I do not intend to insult or offend anyone. But if I do, please keep in mind that I, though I'm an evil aethist liberal, am deeply offended by the, in my mind, baseless attacks on a religion and it's people, despite the fact that I do not follow it.

I fear your left wing mindset has you worrying more about hurt feelings than truths. For you to claim that these people had nothing to do with Islam is frankly ridiculous.

And if youre so worried about people insulting religions, why didnt you write up such a tirade when one of your own leftist comrades made a thread discussing how happy he was the pope died? Or when they incessantly blame the "Christian Right" for everything under the sun?

No my friend (hopefully still after this :embarassed: ), youre more upset about the underdog getting picked on in my opinion. "Dont pick on them, they blow things up, hate jews, and execute women because theyve been oppressed by European colonialism!" At some point if a culture gets so backwards they become a threat to other cultures, they have to be reminded of their faults.

If possible, just keep in mind how insulted a Muslim would feel by reading your words, or how insulted you would feel if I said half of these things about Christianity.

If said muslim attends a Mosque where the type of Islam we have been discussing is preached , he should feel not insulted but shamed.

If said muslim does not adhere to that type of radicalism, this topic does not apply to him.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

They don't have to use the Bible to kill people. There plenty of Christian terrorists all over Europe. There's northern Ireland, the Basque province in Spain and many other smaller ones everywhere minorites exist.
The point is that radical Muslims tell you that the Koran tells them to murder people. Either their wrong or Islam is a religion of hate and war. We cant clean up their house for them. Once more it is the Muslims of the world who must root out this scum among them. If they choose not to do so as Panzer said their guilty of a bad decision. Either that or their non action is tantamount to approval in my book, nevermind them endlessly telling us why we have to understand why they think this. Is it written in the Koran or not? Thats what they say they go by. Go argue with them and do the world some good.

[bmolsson]

You cannot separate the religion of Islam from what the people who are trying to kill all americans are doing.


Then we have no hope. Americans will use the nukes again and the Christian people are responsible for all the actions done towards the middle east through history. There can be only one......

With your views the only solution is to convert everyone or exterminate them. This will of course lead to a world war with at least half of the population on earth dead before it's over.

I really, really hope that you are wrong.

Note: You seems to forget that currently it's only the poor, alienated and fundamentalistic nutjobs being at the front. Imagine if every single muslim suddenly have to fight for his life all over the world. Don't think they will go down with a yawn.

[bmolsson]

Especialy if christains around the world hated the US and Israel.


I don't recall jews being the flavor of the month 60 years ago, and that without a muslim mullah in among the cheerleaders......

[Gawain of Orkeny]

I don't recall jews being the flavor of the month 60 years ago,

I suggest your memory fails you.


and that without a muslim mullah in among the cheerleaders......

Are you kidding me?

[bmolsson]

I suggest your memory fails you.
Are you kidding me?


I just watched the German movie about Hitler....... :help:

[Gawain of Orkeny]

I don't recall jews being the flavor of the month 60 years ago,

Are you denying that in 1945 jews were not being slaughtered and persecuted?


and that without a muslim mullah in among the cheerleaders...

Do you know who Araffats uncle was?

[bmolsson]

Are you denying that in 1945 jews were not being slaughtered and persecuted?


The opposite actually. I did get the impression you did that, and that really scared the shit out of me......



Do you know who Araffats uncle was?


Yes, another nutjob. Arafat and his family is one of the main reasons for the suffering of the Palestinian people.

[PanzerJaeger]

With your views the only solution is to convert everyone or exterminate them. This will of course lead to a world war with at least half of the population on earth dead before it's over.

No, youre missing the whole point. They need to reform.

Nobody here wants to convert all muslims to Christianity or blow them all up.

We left them alone for years while they blew up our embassies and ships and barracks, but now theyve hit us on our own land and we have no choice but to deal with them the best way we can.

The quickest way to end muslim suffering in the middle east is to reform. America has reached its limits. We will not let 9/11 happen again and we will not leave until this situation is fixed.

Muslims can either get on the bandwagon and simply realize what the rest of the world did 50 years ago - religious and ethnic hatred is in fact bad - or they can grab their AK and go try and take on the Abrams or Merkava. Either way 9/11 was a boiling point and the cards are all on the table now - excuse the mixed metaphors please..

[bmolsson]

With your views the only solution is to convert everyone or exterminate them. This will of course lead to a world war with at least half of the population on earth dead before it's over.

No, youre missing the whole point. They need to reform.

Nobody here wants to convert all muslims to Christianity or blow them all up.

We left them alone for years while they blew up our embassies and ships and barracks, but now theyve hit us on our own land and we have no choice but to deal with them the best way we can.

The quickest way to end muslim suffering in the middle east is to reform. America has reached its limits. We will not let 9/11 happen again and we will not leave until this situation is fixed.

Muslims can either get on the bandwagon and simply realize what the rest of the world did 50 years ago - religious and ethnic hatred is in fact bad - or they can grab their AK and go try and take on the Abrams or Merkava. Either way 9/11 was a boiling point and the cards are all on the table now - excuse the mixed metaphors please..

Well, I do understand you a bit better, but the fact remains that you assume that ALL muslims are the same by saying that islam itself is the reason for islamic terrorism. Furthermore, America is a part of the problem, regardless if you like it or not. Saudi Arabia is in my view the origin of the bin Laden saga and without him, the Talibans would never have left the mountains.
The international terrorism created through the generation of islamic nutjobs like bin Laden have its origins more through the western efforts to beat communism than through islam itself. Suicide bombers is not something new in history, it's just that the efficiency of their use have improved.
The reforms you are talking about require support from us, not attitudes against the religion as such. A country like Indonesia is trying very hard and have pathetic support from the west in getting there. A fraction of the cost for the current war of terrorism could create thousands of peaceful islamic missionaries in Indonesia. This missionaries could visit hot spots in the middle east and preach the truth of the modern society. I strongly believe they would do better than the US Marines in creating a sustainable peace in the middle east.

[Shambles]

"We left them alone for years while they blew up our embassies and ships and barracks, but now theyve hit us on our own land and we have no choice but to deal with them the best way we can."

Youve been bombing them for last 20 years..

Its them who let You get away with it till now.

[Redleg]

"We left them alone for years while they blew up our embassies and ships and barracks, but now theyve hit us on our own land and we have no choice but to deal with them the best way we can."

Youve been bombing them for last 20 years..

Its them who let You get away with it till now.



Around 1984 bomb Libiya (SP) in direct retlation for a terrorist attack thought to have been planed by and supported by that government.

1991 - Desert Storm
1992-2004 - periodical bombings of anti-aircraft sites along the No-fly zone.

1993 Somilia

A strike by Clinton in the 1990s into Afganstan as a retlation for the embassy bombing in Africa.

And a bombing strike on a chemical plant - location I forgot - another retlation strike however.


So notice that its not either side that have been letting either get away with attacking the other.

Edit: And absolutely no attacks for the last 20 years in Saudia Arabia - where the majority of these individuals come from. Absolutely no attacks in Jordan, Syria, Iran, and other places where many of the others are coming from.

[Templar Knight]

And a bombing strike on a chemical plant - location I forgot - another retlation strike however.

Yemen?

[Redleg]

Yemen?

I thought it was in Africa - but it might have been Yemen because of the USS Cole.

[Templar Knight]

yea your right Sudan in 1998

http://www.wsws.org/news/1998/sep1998/sud-s12.shtml

[Templar Knight]

Did the US not hit somewhere in Yemen recently?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

I believe it was Sudan

[Steppe Merc]

How do you explain the fact that it has not happened? There are many Christian fundamentalists in the world, why arent they bombing Mecca? Even after 9/11 and all the rest we have not seen any Christian fundamentalist retaliatory attacks against Muslims. I see no basis in that statement.
To me, if there were some Christians somewhere where they felt Muslims were oppressing them, they would still resort to terrorist acts. The fact that they use religious ideas, to me is just a form of control, not anything that leads to terrorism. Personally, if the Osama lived somehwere else and was an aethist, or a Christian or a Jew, he would still be attacking someone who he hated, regardless of his religon.
I think that in a hypothetical position in which the situations were reversed, some Christians would use their religion to recruit and justify their violence actions. Are there any in the world today that are doing so? Not to my knowledge. Am I perhaps guessing? Yes. But that's what I think, based on my admidetly limited understanding of religous insipired warfare. Though I could claim that some of the violence Isreal is doing towards Palestianians is religous base, I won't go there.


Yes they were. On a personal level, i would argue most were not, but they made bad leadership choices as a nation. Muslims in the middle east are making bad leadership choices by allowing such radical clerics to preach hate on such a large scale.
I see what you're saying. However, I really don't think that by the time things were really going bad, the German people could have done much, at least without some serious organization. Today, I think it would be even more impossible, as the governments they live under wouldn't allow any sort of reform, and the Muslim people are far more scattered than the German people.


Whose precious religion? Im not religious at all. Simply because I can draw negative conclusions about Islam does not mean I have to be some radical Christian.

The choice as to what to do about it is in the hands of the Muslims in the middle east, unless they choose to do nothing and then we will be forced to do what we have to to defend ourselves.
Perhaps I misinted the way people meant what they were saying. To me, blaming Islam for terrorism would mean the only way to stop terrorism would be to force Muslims to stop following Islam, thus converting them to Christianity, I assumed.
But later I relized that you meant that Muslims themselves would have to change it. But how would that work? Wouldn't Islam still exist, and if it's the main cause, won't it continue?
And sorry for implying making assumptions that you were religous.

Now preventing another 9/11 is simply a catchphrase. Oh how easily we forget such horrible things..
To me, in order to justify anything, a lot of people that are conservatives lately have just mentioned 9/11, and all opposition has shut up.


Again I cannot see how you draw the conclusion that this would happen no matter the religion. There are fundamentalists of all religions out there.. only fundamentalists from one religion attacked America.
Because the rest of the factors were there, and it happened to be Muslims that the rest of the factors applied to. The other fundamentalists weren't oppresed at home, etc.


I fear your left wing mindset has you worrying more about hurt feelings than truths. For you to claim that these people had nothing to do with Islam is frankly ridiculous.

And if youre so worried about people insulting religions, why didnt you write up such a tirade when one of your own leftist comrades made a thread discussing how happy he was the pope died? Or when they incessantly blame the "Christian Right" for everything under the sun?

No my friend (hopefully still after this :embarassed: ), youre more upset about the underdog getting picked on in my opinion. "Dont pick on them, they blow things up, hate jews, and execute women because theyve been oppressed by European colonialism!" At some point if a culture gets so backwards they become a threat to other cultures, they have to be reminded of their faults.
Don't worry friend, I don't get insulted easily, and despite my anger, I don't hate anyone here, or anything.
Am I more scared of insulting people? I don't really think so, but I really don't see a lot of facts backing up things. Or I just don't agree with them. As for defending Christianty against my fellow left wingers, I agree, I should have spoken up about it more. Not saying that Muslims are really a minority, but in those threads, other rightfully so already spoke up, while I didn't feel it was the case hear. But, as you said, I'm a left winger, and we're bleeding hearts when it comes to picking the smaller person. ~;)
Am I just defending Muslims because they have less people to defend them, at least in these forums? Not sure, honestly. I'd hope not, and hope it would be because in this forum the attacks on Muslims were far more harsh, and untrue than towards Christianity. But I don't know.


If said muslim attends a Mosque where the type of Islam we have been discussing is preached , he should feel not insulted but shamed.

If said muslim does not adhere to that type of radicalism, this topic does not apply to him.
Allow me to disagree. While as it started it may not apply, the attacks, in particular upon Mohammed and Islam in general, as opposed to the sort of Islam that terroists follow.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

To me, if there were some Christians somewhere where they felt Muslims were oppressing them, they would still resort to terrorist acts.

There have been and they havent.


The fact that they use religious ideas, to me is just a form of control, not anything that leads to terrorism. Personally, if the Osama lived somehwere else and was an aethist, or a Christian or a Jew, he would still be attacking someone who he hated,

He might try but its hard to get people to go out and blow themselves and others nowdays using the bible. Your missing the point that he uses the Koran to not only justify what he does , he says it demands they do so. The fact that millions of Muslims. I know a minority, believe him shows it is tied to the religion. How many Jews and Christains from that region are followers of Bin Laden. They all llive in the same conditions. They should be joining him according to your reasoning.

[Steppe Merc]

There have been and they havent.
Just out of curosity, where? Not that I don't believe you, but I'm curious.


He might try but its hard to get people to go out and blow themselves and others nowdays using the bible. Your missing the point that he uses the Koran to not only justify what he does , he says it demands they do so. The fact that millions of Muslims. I know a minority, believe him shows it is tied to the religion. How many Jews and Christains from that region are followers of Bin Laden. They all llive in the same conditions. They should be joining him according to your reasoning.
But in say Isreal, the Jewish government is fighting against Palestinians. Is that because of their religion?
As for the other Jewish and Christian people, I think that evantually they will turn to violence if they feel they are oppresed long enough. Just because no one else in the area is currently commiting similar acts doesn't mean similar acts have happened before, or will happen in the future.
As for Osama using the Koran, I think it is just an excuse, not the reason. And I still don't see how it is because of religion. Some of the followers might believe strongly, but there will always be very religious, gullilble people. Islam itself isn't causing the terrorists, it's just a medium that the terrorists use.

[Leet Eriksson]

Also I can go convert to christianity right now and go blow myself in the mosque firmly grasping my bible, does the entire religion get the blame for it?

Note, unless you guys didn't know, he's not the pope of islam. Blaming an entire religion is just stupid.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Also I can go convert to christianity right now and go blow myself in the mosque firmly grasping my bible, does the entire religion get the blame for it?

No we would still blame Islam and deny you were a true christain ~D

How many christains do this sort of thing and how many Muslims?


But in say Isreal, the Jewish government is fighting against Palestinians. Is that because of their religion?

Which party are you speaking of? Certainly Islam has a major part to play in this conflict also.


As for the other Jewish and Christian people, I think that evantually they will turn to violence if they feel they are oppresed long enough. Just because no one else in the area is currently commiting similar acts doesn't mean similar acts have happened before, or will happen in the future.


Hold on here. So now Muslims in the middle east are oppressed and christians and Jews in those countries arent? I think you have it backwards. How are Muslims in Saudi Arabia, Lebbanon,Iran or Iraq for instance oppressed because their MUSLIM? There oppressed because of the mullahs again using their own religion to oppress them. Its there own fault not that of the US or Israel as they would like everyone to believe.

[Steppe Merc]

Which party are you speaking of? Certainly Islam has a major part to play in this conflict also.
Again, I don't think it has to do with Islam, but with some Muslims. Just as I don't think that the leader of Isreal is oppressing the Palestinians because he is Jewish, but he just happens to be Jewish, and is enemies are Muslim.


Hold on here. So now Muslims in the middle east are oppressed and christians and Jews in those countries arent? I think you have it backwards. How are Muslims in Saudi Arabia, Lebbanon,Iran or Iraq for instance oppressed because their MUSLIM? There oppressed because of the mullahs again using their own religion to oppress them. Its there own fault not that of the US or Israel as they would like everyone to believe.
I didn't explain myself clearly. I wasn't saying that they weren't oppressed. But just because they aren't currently fighting, doesn't mean they will if they continue to get oppressed. If there are enough Christians and Jews in any Muslim controlled nation, and they are pushed long enough, eventually, they will resort to violence, likely using Christian or Jewish religion to help recruitment. Does that make it Christianity's fault or Judiasm's fault?
My point was that it just so happens that only Muslims in the Middle East are fighting now, and in a bit it could be a different group that is doing the violence.

[PanzerJaeger]

Note, unless you guys didn't know, he's not the pope of islam. Blaming an entire religion is just stupid. .

And ignoring the obvious influence Islam has on modern terrorism is equally as idiotic.

[Drisos]

Do you honestly think the people who were willing to kill themselves just to kill others just did it for fun? Hell no, they did it because of an intense religious conviction.


Wrong,

They think it is out of religion, so you could call it because of their religion. If you mean it that way, you're totally right.

If you take the muslim religion the way it actually is, it wouldn't be a reason to kill. The Quran isn't offensive to the Western world, only a lot of 'Muslim'(who actually aren't living to the Quran) people think it is.

I don't understand why, but lots of 'Muslims' are anti-western, and ignore the Quran. I guess most of them never even read the Quran.

No offense, Panzerjager, we just don't agree on this.
Especially no offense to the Islam, only against 'Muslims' who don't live by the Quran and kill people in their insanity.

[LittleGrizzly]

I voted poverty, can't see a bigger contributor than that, i do think religion plays a part also. Its not that theres anything wrong with Islam just the combanation of several factors (some mentioned in the poll) plus a religion (doesn't matter which one) can be a dangerous combanation.

[Don Corleone]

Okay, I'm willing to accept that I might be ignorant on this one, so I'd like to ask Bmolsson, Faisal, Mouzapherre or any other practicing muslim, specifically....


Doesn't Islam divide the world in two, the House of Islam (dar-al-Islam) and the House of War (dar-al-harb)? Don't most of the quotes taken from the Qaran outlawing agression come from the part dealing with how to operate in a land where Islamic Law has already been established? Isn't there a different code of conduct in lands which willfully resist the rule of Allah? Where does the whole concept of 'dhimini' come from?

Again, I'm not trying to be inflammatory, I want to know if I'm getting bogus information or not.

[Leet Eriksson]

No we would still blame Islam and deny you were a true christain

Thats my point, are these terrorists true muslims? i think not. If anything the call for saudias imams for muslims to not listen to terrorists was widely ignored by the western media, they denounced terrorists as true muslims. If anything these people know more than me and more than most of the people about Islam than the entire totalwar.org, egypt, and Iran combined.


Doesn't Islam divide the world in two, the House of Islam (dar-al-Islam) and the House of War (dar-al-harb)? Don't most of the quotes taken from the Qaran outlawing agression come from the part dealing with how to operate in a land where Islamic Law has already been established? Isn't there a different code of conduct in lands which willfully resist the rule of Allah? Where does the whole concept of 'dhimini' come from?

Check pindars thread about eurabia, i have gone through this one. concept of dar al harb doesn't exist, or dar al islam for that matter. The Dhimmis thing also eroded over time, even in Saudia especially their foriegn workforce, americans, europeans and such are not considered dhimmis. Even then, i was taught to respect Christians and Jews as a muslim, thats common educational material here in high school.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Thats my point, are these terrorists true muslims?

My point is they believe they are and your not. I also added a smiley because christains dont blow themselves up. They would investigate you ,find that you were once a Muslim and most likely conclude. and most likely be correct thats why you did it.


If anything the call for saudias imams for muslims to not listen to terrorists was widely ignored by the western media, they denounced terrorists as true muslims. If anything these people know more than me and more than most of the people about Islam than the entire totalwar.org, egypt, and Iran combined.

WE hearit all the time. Everytime someone mentions we should attack the Saudis this is brought up. But then you bring up that Saudi Arabia is the root of these terrorists.

[Franconicus]

Do you remember that after 9/11 about a million people in Teheran demonstrated against terrorism and for the US? And Iran is known to be a radical islamistic nation. ~:confused:

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Do you remember that after 9/11 about a million people in Teheran demonstrated against terrorism and for the US? And Iran is known to be a radical islamistic nation.

No I remember them dancinng in the streets along with many Palestinians. Also although the ;eaders of Iran are radicals I dont believe this applies to the general population. Theres nothing they want more I hear than to rid themselves of the mullahs. This is my point. Its the religous leaders who are oppressing these people not the west.

[KukriKhan]

If I get the last 50 posts, we've come around to the thinking that "The Muslim Religion" isn't really the #1 contributing factor....

it's some Muslim clergy?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

it's some Muslim clergy?

Was there ever a doubt ? ~:) I mean some would call Bin Laden a Muslim Clergyman. If the leaders of a relgion are calling for terrorism then in my book its fair to blame it on the religion. Mohamed being a prophet should have realized what he wrote would have been used in this manner. But then again he didnt write it did he? Again if the leader of say the Lutheran church was telling christains to do this you can be sure it wouldnt get very far.

[Leet Eriksson]

WE hearit all the time. Everytime someone mentions we should attack the Saudis this is brought up. But then you bring up that Saudi Arabia is the root of these terrorists.

Now i am confused, which part of they are not true muslims you do not understand?


My point is they believe they are and your not. I also added a smiley because christains dont blow themselves up. They would investigate you ,find that you were once a Muslim and most likely conclude. and most likely be correct thats why you did it.

Ok lets bring up a better example, an Isreali once shot a mosque full of praying muslims, do i blame the entire jewish religion for his actions?