Age of Vikings and Fanatics: Total war

[Rodion Romanovich]

A mod focusing on viking age as well as the other interesting wars that happened at the same time.

This post will be updated with details about progress of the mod.
- Research: 47 %
- Planning tech trees & units: 72 %
- Campaign map 17 %
- Buildings: 0 %
- Units: 0 %
- Testing: 0 %
- Planned release: probably July, August or September, earlier if more join the team

THE MOD TEAM RIGHT NOW
- LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix - project leader/campaign map maker/skinner/unit editor
- Captain-Tiguris - project leader/skinner/unit editor
- The Apostate - chief of research
- skeletor - skinner/unit editor
- ScionTheWorm - skinner/unit editor
- King Ragnar - researcher/skinner - not confirmed yet

Time:
=====
Starting date is 843 (Verdun treaty, which split up the Frankish empire into 3 parts), ending date is 1099 AD (the first crusade takes Jerusalem).

Focus/Background: :knight: :medievalcheers:
=================
The time when power over Europe and the Middle east was shared between the three superpowers the Frankish empire, the Byzantine empire and the Baghdad khaliphate is nearly over. The Frankish empire has been divided between the heirs of Charlemagne, the Byzantine empire has only just survived the muslim jihad and the schisms with the catholic church, and the muslims of the Baghdad khaliphate have now been split up in many smaller khaliphates and have lost their will to expand, and as a result, let their armies be weakened.

This is the perfect time for new tribes to establish kingdoms - or even empires. While the pagan vikings battle for the supreme control over Scandinavia, Denmark and other parts of Northern Europe (including the British Isles, Russia and the northern coasts of the Holy roman empire and France), Magyars and Bulgars are threatening to sack the once mighty Byzantine empire. At the same time in the Mediterranean area, North African pirates conduct raids similar to the viking raids, occupying among other places Sicily and threaten the Pope himself. Can the vikings hope to win a battle against more organized, richer enemies in the long term? Will the formerly great catholic empires survive the storm of raids and conquests and the fury of the norsemen? Will the byzantine empire survive attacks from all directions - both from their former catholic allies, from magyars, from slavic peoples moving in from the steppes to the east, and from Muslims? Can the peaceful eastern muslims survive the growing power of the pope and his will to create a Christian crusader kingdom in Jerusalem? For this is also the time of increasing religious fanatism - al-murabitin will try to conquer more of Spain, the kingdom of Asturia try to push back the moors into North Africa, and in the end of the 11th century, the very first crusade is launched.

The focus of the mod will be vikings and invasion of Britain and colonization of Russia. However in order to put the vikings into a historically correct context it's in my opinion necessary to display the rest of Europe, as many decisions to the south affected the situation to the north. And including the more southern areas also gives the mod another bonus. The southern nations have as a matter of fact a history nearly as interesting as, or even more interesting than, that of the vikings. This period is an often neglected one, which is a pity, considering that it's a time that's very well suited for a game/mod - there is a balance in power between the nations, and almost anything can happen.

Factions:
=======
REAL FACTIONS
- Norway - pagan
- Sweden - pagan
- Denmark - pagan
- Rus - orthodox
- Normandy - catholic
- Saxons - catholic
- Scots - catholic
- Irish - catholic
- Welsh - catholic
- France - catholic
- Holy roman empire - catholic
- Kingdom of Lotharingia - catholic
- Kingdom of Asturia - catholic
- Papal state - catholic
- Magyars - pagan
- Bulgars - orthodox
- Khazars - jewish
- Byzantine empire - orthodox
- Abbassids - muslim
- Al Andalus - muslim
- (and of course the Rebels)

Some units that'll be included:
======================
- Cavalry: Szekely heavy cavalry, Szekely horse archers, Feudal knights, Royal knights, Norman knights, Khazar royal cavalry, Druzhina cavalry, Boyars, Katapraktoi, Mamluk light cavalry, Camel warriors.
- Swordsmen: Swordsmen huscarles, Celtic swordsmen, Berserkers, Joms vikings, Slavic infantry, Feudal foot sergeants, Varangian mercenaries, Militia swordsmen
- Militia: Town watch, Urban militia, Urban guard.
- Axemen: Axemen huscarles, Varangian axemen.
- Spearmen: Fyrdmen.
- Siege weapons: Ballista, catapult, trebuchet.
- Missiles: Geneose mercenary crossbowmen, Welsh longbowmen, Welsh mercenary longbowmen.

Field combat: :duel: :charge:
=============
General's units will be extremely small, if possible only around 5 men or so but 20-50 for the faction leader.

Battle speed will be slow and infantry dominated except in the cases of skilled cavalry factions like the muslim factions and the magyars. The late cavalry units will also be more powerful and reduce the importance of the infantry again. Only special units like berserkers will use horde formation, all others will use line. The following classes of units will be included: spearmen, halberdiers (few), swordsmen, axemen, light cavalry, medium/heavy cavalry, cavalry archers (few), camels (muslim factions only), archers, crossbowmen, javelinmen.

The short spear spearmen will be modelled with normal formation. All spearmen with medium or long spears will be modelled using the phalanx formation. Balancing will be like this: if a spear unit engages swordsmen for a short time, the spearmen will inflict more casualties due to maintaining formation. Very low morale swordsmen can even be routed by them. Medium and high morale swordsmen (pretty much all non-militia) will soon break the formation of the spearmen and then the spearmen will be chanceless and quickly routed/killed. If sword meets spear the swords win in the long term, but spearmen can be more effective kill/death ratio-wise for holding a line a short period of time. Spearmen will have anti-cavalry bonus.

Halberdiers will appear very late. They will require high technology level and be modelled with normal formation. They'll perform well versus both spears and swords but be slightly weaker than swords during prolonged combat. They will be heavily armored and therefore very, very slow. As I said, halberdiers will be so high-tech and have so many training turns that they'll be rare on the battlefields.

Pikemen will only appear as rebels/brigands in Switzerland. They'll be based on R:TW pikemen with low attack and defense but effectiveness vs cavalry due to their very long spears.

Swordsmen will appear as the main battlefield unit. They'll have good defense but lower attack and charge stats, especially when they're heavily armored. Lighter swordsmen will be opposite but still not as good attackers as axemen.

Axemen will be quite rare but be low-tech and thus appear early, however 2 turns training for most of them and very low defense (thus very easily killed in action) will limit the amount of them that'll appear on the battlefields. Axemen will have minus bonus against cavalry.

Light cavalry will be of two types. 1. The militia/untrained cheap cavalry will just be like a weaker form of heavy cavalry. The central Europeans never implemented much high-quality light cavalry in this period, and most "light" cavalry in those armies were almost to be considered "failed attempts" at making a heavy cavalry force. 2. The professional light cavalry of the muslim factions and magyars (Hungarians) will have an anti-cavalry bonus and be very effective vs slower cavalry. This light cavalry is light by choice and specialists at fighting that way.

Medium/heavy cavalry is the cavalry intended for killing infantry. The Byzantines will have the fearsome cathapracts almost from start, but most others will have to wait long until they get hold of such beasts. They will instead stick with a medium cavalry with less armor but in return stronger charge due to lighter weight and slightly higher speed.

Cavalry archers will be rare (due to training time of 2 turns, low defense stats and restriction to only the muslims, khazars and magyars), but important key troops for those who can recruit them. Some will also be available as mercenaries, but hard for the European factions to get hold of until they reach far enough south/east/southeast.

Camels will have "frightens cavalry" attribute and also an anti-cavalry fighting bonus and a desert combat bonus. However they are slow and will therefore not perform well against faster light cavalry that can isolate and surround them.

Archers will appear early, from start. Archer quality will improve with building upgrades. The Welsh will have their famous longbowmen almost from start and they'll also appear as mercenaries there. Crossbowmen will appear later and also as mercenaries, near Genoa (genoese crossbowmen). Pavise crossbowmen will appear very late, and require 2 or 3 training turns. Their slow speed makes them less suited for skirmishing and are safest kept behind the line unlike archers which are faster. Some archers will be faster than the average archers too, for example bulgarian brigands which will appear as mercenaries in the area north of Constantinople.

Javelinmen will be cheap and some will use spear and javelin in combination. Most nations won't use the javelinmen much though, as they are partly outdated - at least as missile troops - compared to archers with their longer distance. Bulgars and magyars will have some javelinmen of better quality.

Sieges and assaults:
===============
Cities will have these levels of defenses: wooden pallisade (1 turn siege, 200 florins), wooden wall (2 turns siege, 600 florins), large wooden wall (1200 florins, 4 turns siege, possible to move on top of the wall, can use towers and saps to destroy it), stone wall (4000 florins, 6 turns siege), epic stone walls (8000 florins, 10 turns siege, Constantinople-like walls).

Forts will, if possible, exist in different shapes. Fortified camp (1 siege turns), Wooden fort (2 siege turns), Stone fort (5 siege turns), Citadel (10 siege turns). Forts will be much cheaper than city walls to build, perhaps costs should be 50 florins, 200 florins, 600 florins and 1200 florins, respectively. (If this isn't possible, the standard R:TW fort will be used, with 3 turns siege time.)

This will force the player to try and defend approaches to cities rather than cities, making it easier to lose - and take - the smaller and less important cities. Later, the player will however feel forced to fortify his most important cities.

Strategy: :duel: :charge: :end:
=========
- 0 turns build time for militia and untrained, very weak units.
- 1 turn build time for most regular units.
- 2-3 turns build time for elite units or others that historically required much training.
- This will prevent armies from consisting purely of elite units.

- Pope: Pope will hand out orders/suggestions/missions to the major catholic factions (HRE, France, Lombard league). The pope is not very powerful at this time so he can't reach the other catholics well. If you play a major catholic faction and become too powerful, the pope will excommunicate you and after that there's no way back - the other major catholic factions will become your enemies.

- Vikings will start with easily available good units. Catholic and other factions will get better units later, but in some cases be in pretty difficult positions from start. Vikings and fatimids will have double movement points for most of their ships.

- Byzantines, Abbassids and Khazars and others who historically relied on mercenaries will need mercenaries much here too, by restricting traditional recruitment in different ways. Their economy will allow them to hire many mercenaries.

- City levels: village, town, large town, city, large city. All factions will be able to construct all city levels, although vikings and others will have very slow growth compared to others, and therefore will probably not build many large cities.

[Rodion Romanovich]

NEWS UPDATE May 4, 2005
====================
A first, temporary concept map for province distribution has been drawn. This map is NOT the final plan for provinces. The map does NOT show which faction will own which province from start, only where the province borders will be. I made it in a few minutes so it's not pretty, but should give you an idea of how the map will probably be in terms of province distribution, map edge positions and so on. This tempory, first sketch of a map features around 150-160 provinces. As more research is made, I might feel it's necessary to change parts of this map. ALSO NOTE... that victory condition will probably be changed to 30 provinces instead of 50.

--- REMOVED - OUTDATED ---

[Rodion Romanovich]

NEWS UPDATE
===========
Factions list updated. See first post.

These factions will be represented as rebels:
- Polans/Polish
- Almoravids
- Pechenegs
- Iceland
- Middle frankish empire
- Mercians
- Various smaller viking empires already existing at the starting date
- Serbia
- Croatia
- (maybe) Khwarazm
- Volga-bulgars

[Spongly]

If it starts in 843 the kingdoms of the Picts and Scots should both be Catholic, and are both ruled by one monarch - Cinaed MacAilpin.

[Rodion Romanovich]

If it starts in 843 the kingdoms of the Picts and Scots should both be Catholic, and are both ruled by one monarch - Cinaed MacAilpin.

Ok, I have only just begun the research, so your help is very welcome. Should scots and picts really be a single faction too?

[Meneldil]

After 843, they were. Pics disappeared quickly after this date. I also think they concerted to christianism way before 843, but I may be wrong on that

[Rodion Romanovich]

Ok. They're probably best represented as scots owning most of the territory but one or two provinces being rebels... I'll have a closer look at that soon. I'll start researching and deciding about factions very soon, then I'll fix the campaign map bit by bit.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Here's a slightly more pretty map. This is the first version of the campaign heights map, which will generate the landscapes. This is still work in progress, but could give you an idea of which parts of the world will be included on the map - the map edges are positioned where they'll be in the final mod.

https://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y191/LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix/map-heights2.jpg

[Rodion Romanovich]

NEWS - 2005-05-06
===============
1. FACTIONS
Factions have been decided now. Khazars will be kept, Polish will be represented as rebels. The reasons are the following:
- Khazar was a strong, united khaganate at the time.
- Historically, Poland wasn't united until long after the starting date. In fact, the Polish kingdom which was created long after the starting date was also eliminated shortly afterwards. Not until after the ending date of the mod did a strong Polish kingdom arise.
- Khazars means introducing another culture, which should make things more interesting.
- Khazars have interesting horse units and haven't been included in many games/mods before, so it'd be a nice change to play them.
- The Holy roman empire experienced it's strongest period in 900 AD, something that'll be represented in the mod if the Poland area is rebel-owned from start.
- Not having Khazars as a faction will allow Abbassid khaliphate and Novgorod to grow too strong.
- It is probably possible to make a mod to this mod that can remove Khazar and add Poland, so what I decide now doesn't matter that much.

2. FACTION DESCRIPTIONS
The research phase has begun and here are faction descriptions/plans for 7 of the factions.

Scots
=====
- Description: The Scots orginate from a tribe called the "Scotti" that lived in Hibernia, or Ireland. As long as the Romans stayed in Britain and represented a great threat to both Picts and Scots, the two people fought alongside each other, carrying out numerous raids and attacks on Roman positions. When the Romans left, Picts and Scots became rivals. From around 300 AD to 843 AD they fought a series of wars. A notable event during this period of violence was when the Scottish King Fergus in 500 AD invaded part of the Pictish territory in modern Scotland, establishing the kingdom of Dal Riada. However the Scots were often defeated by the fierce Picts and on several occasions Dal riada was ruled by Picts. This changed around 800 AD, when the Vikings started their raids on the British isles, primarily on the eastern coast where the Picts lived. The Picts were soon faced with a hopeless two-front war, and in a decisive battle in 839, the Picts were utterly defeated. During the coming five years, a period of several short reigns of many kings followed, until in 843 AD, when the new king of Dal riada, Cinaed Mac Ailpin, through bloodlines could easily claim the throne of the Pictish kingdom, thus uniting Picts and Scots again, although the Picts being the smaller group were eventually assimilated. The Scottish position in modern Scotland was strengthened while the Scottish positions in northern Ireland were assimilated by larger Irish tribes and viking invasions. Even though the Scottish position is quite strong at this time after the uniting of the two tribes, the viking raids and the strength of Saxons and other tribes further south will offer a tough challenge for the Scottish leader. They have an advantage in that they only have one front and quite defensible highland provinces, but their provinces are poor and can't support an army large enough to challenge the stronger factions to the south unless they expand aggressively from start. In the long term, the rising faction of Normandy will become a great threat too.
- Starting characters: King (Cinaed MacAilpin).
- Religion: Catholic.
- Surroundings: The Scotland area will consist of Dal riada (on the west coast), Northern Scotland, Middle Scotland and Southern Scotland. The latter three will need better names, and the correct capitals of the provinces must be researched. The Scots will from start own all of these provinces, but their army is weak and they barely have more than what's needed to maintain public order. The provinces are also poor, which requires a fast strike south if they are to improve their strategical, long-term strength which will be needed against the Vikings.
- Army: celtic warriors, highland clansmen, elite clansmen, good spearmen. Little and weak cavalry as long as they only own provinces in Scotland, but if they move south and conquer richer lands they'll be able to afford the support and training costs for better cavalry.

Irish
=====
- Description: The population in Ireland is mostly celtic, having lived on the island since the 1st century BC or earlier. Having originally been followers of pagan druidic religions, they were in 432 AD converted to Christianity by St. Patrick. From then and during the coming centuries the island prospered economically, culturally and technologically. But this mostly peaceful scenario was ended in the early 9th century, when Viking raids begun shaking the island and it's population. Apart from raids against monasteries and towns, some attempts at conquest were also made. In 831 the viking Thorgest sailed up the Shannon and established a kingdom in the Ulster and Connacht regions. Historically he was defeated by Malachy, King of Meath, who then proceeded by defeating another viking army at Sciath Nechtain, but that was not the end of the viking terror, which continued for some centuries. In 852 Olaf the White and Ivar Beinlaus conquered the area around modern Dublin and founded Dublin (although some sources indicate the city already existed under the name of Eblana). In 1014 AD the Irish won an important victory over the Norwegian viking Sigurd, who was defeated and killed in the battle of Clontarf, but at the cost of the Irish King Brian Boru dying too. The viking claims to the throne of Ireland stopped shortly afterwards, only to replaced by claims from the new Norman rulers of Britain. The Irish have a fine tradition of celtic warriors but their isolated position has made the need for a strong army limited, something that is gradually changing around 834 AD when the Viking raids are beginning en masse. The Irish must take up their old warrior tradition and strengthen their army in order to be able to withstand this terror - and perhaps also use that power to conquer new strategic positions. But from start, their main concern is the kingdom of the viking Thorgest, which must be taken if the Irish want a united Ireland, or Éire, as they call their island.
- Starting characters: King (Malachy).
- Religion: Catholic.
- Surroundings: Ireland will consist of 4 provinces - Ulster (northern Ireland - ?), Connacht (western Ireland - Limerick), Leinster (southeast Ireland -
Dubh Linn), Munster (southwest Ireland - Cork). The Irish will from start own Munster and Leinster, whereas the rebel family member Thorgest and his
vikings will control Ulster and Connacht.
- Army: non yet decided. Celtic warriors and good swordsmen will be important. The bonnachts and gallowglasses of M:TW will perhaps be included.

Saxons
=====
- Description: The saxons, the angli and the jutes invaded Britain in the 5th century following the roman withdrawal, and came to establish the strongest kingdoms in the area until the time of the viking invasion. When the Danish vikings started invading the island around 800 AD, the Saxons offered the strongest resistance, from 834 AD under the leadership of the famous Alfred the Great, who, historically, defeated the Danish viking Cuthrum of Danelagen (or the Danelaw) in the battle of Edington and forced a ceasefire which stopped the Danish expansion and created stability on the island for a while and eventually led to the Danes being thrown out of the British isles. But that was not the end of their troubles. More vikings would try to claim the throne of Britain, including Norwegians and Normans (Normandy was created by vikings) in 1066 AD. The saxons have a strong army consisting both of viking mercenary huscarles and local recruits such as fyrdmen, and it is for a good reason that they kept control over much of Britain up to 1066 AD. Perhaps, under a few generations of unbroken strong military leadership they could have gone even further...?
- Starting characters: King (Alfred the Great).
- Religion: Catholic.
- Surroundings: The Saxons are concentrated to the southern and eastern parts of Britain in a tough strategical position. However much of the land to the north will be owned by rebels (mercians, northumbrians etc.) but some will also be owned by the Danes, and there's also the Welsh with their skilled longbowmen if the Saxons move even further. The position is made even more problematic by the fact that it's surrounded by seas and the Saxon navy is no match for the viking longboats. Any expansion attempts will mean starting wars with several factions and unless one or two can be eliminated quickly the Saxons will have many tough centuries of fighting ahead of them. It isn't likely they'll be eliminated by the pressure - at least not in the short term - but they'll be forced to fight defensively for a long time which could weaken their strategic strength. And the many rebel territories to the north are probably easier for Danes than Saxons to capture so they probably won't be of much help.
- Army: Fyrdmen will constitute the main body of the Saxon army, but they'll be supported by huscarles swordsmen and axemen forming the elite, and a mounted nobility which will get stronger as the campaign proceeds.

Welsh
====
- Description: Since the centuries before Christ, Wales has been inhabited by Celtic tribes, among others the famous Silurii, who under the leadership of Caradoc defied the romans after Claudius's invasion of Britain. Wales was eventually captured, but the romans found the terrain difficult and the lack of agricultural land made their interest in the area limited, even though there were possibilities for gold mining and trade. When the romans withdrew, the saxons quickly conquered most of England, but had to stop when reaching Wales, because they couldn't penetrate the difficult terrain. Their expansion however isolated the Welsh from the other Celts in Britain and during the coming centuries their culture developed independently of the other Celts, resulting in a special language, special traditions and a unique warfare supported by the famous Welsh longbow. During this period, Wales was converted to Christianity and existed as a number of petty kingdoms. Not until in 820 AD did the Welsh tribes unite, under the leadership of Rhodri Mawr, also known as Rhodri the Great, who historically ruled the kingdom until in 877 AD. Having held off many invasion attempts from vikings and saxons, he was eventually defeated by vikings and had to flee to Ireland, where he stayed for a year before returning and attempting to reestablish his kingdom. However, weakened by the conflicts, he was killed in a battle against the Mercians. Wales only experienced unity occasionally during the coming centuries, partly due to the tradition of dividing the land between heirs, but remained independent from England until in the end of the 13th century.
- Starting characters: King (Rhodri the Great), Queen (Angharad).
- Religion: Catholic.
- Surroundings: Wales consists of difficult terrain that will be very defensible, but lack agricultural and trade resources. Perhaps the gold mining can help the Welsh, but they must also develop their army and form a professional, united army incorporating the terribly effective longbowmen to support their comparatively weak infantry. The position next to saxons is problematic, but there are also Mercian (rebel) territories to the northeast that's up for grabs. However, the mercians are strong, and the Welsh will have to increase the strength of their army before they can hope to destroy the Mercians. Perhaps, striking the Mercians first will be the best way of preventing them from striking first? But this will in return put the Welsh next to the Danish vikings, who have an even stronger army than the saxons (although much of it is kept in Denmark).
- Army: celtic infantry of good quality (but slightly weaker than the catholic units, especially the elite) to support the incredible longbowmen (and before the longbowmen comes, standard archers of extra high quality). Cavalry are weak and few in number because the poor homelands can't support much cavalry, but if they conquer richer lands there's no reason why they wouldn't be able to form a heavy cavalry force.

Bulgars
=======
- Description: The Bulgars originally migrated into the Balkan area from the east. Having conquered settlements north of Constantinople, they have by 834 AD become a threat even for the mighty Byzantine Empire. The leadership of the faction has only 3 years ago been handed over to Malamir, who historically is known for ordering the conquest of Aegean Macedonia and aiding the Smolyans, living in Aegean Thrace, rebel against the Byzantines. Malamir is part of the feared Ugain clan, where among others the feared Krum are included. Krum had, only a few decades earlier, put fear into the hearts of the Byzantines by defeating them in the open and by besieging Constantinople itself (however, the formidable walls of the city, as in so many other cases, saved it). The Bulgars are as a people outnumbered by the local slavic population, and might therefore have trouble holding their provinces. However, their armies are quite strong, even compared to those of the Byzantine empire, and if they can hold their territory and defeat other rising empires in the area, including the kingdom of Serbia, they have a potential to create a larger empire unless they're exhausted by the conflict with the Byzantines.
- Starting characters: King (Malamir), General (Kav-Khan Isbul, to the south near Aegean Macedon area which is rebel controlled from start).
- Religion: Orthodox. Historically the bulgars converted to orthodox faith in 864 AD, but no such conversion is possible to implement so it's probably best to represent them as Orthodox from start.
- Surroundings: In the battles where the bulgars aided the Smolyans, fierce battles broke out near Philippi and Siar. The Smolyans lived in Aegean Thrace, which should probably be an own province. Serbia must be a province, populated by rebels called "Serbians", who will have a quite strong army to reflect how they could manage to defeat the bulgars. Historically, Malamir was defeated by the Serbians in a war from 839 to 842 (however, losses were limited and no Bulgarian land was lost). Moesia should perhaps be a province, as it was conquered by Malamir during his reign. There will perhaps also be a province called Bulgaria, that the bulgars will of course own from start.
- Army: Not yet decided, but slavic infantry will constitute the main body of the army. Some cavalry and archers will support, including the bulgarian brigands which will be some of the best early, short-range archers. The bulgars will also have good javelinmen.

Khazar
======
- Description: The Khazars, like the Bulgars, originate from the Gokturk empire which was split up in the early 7th century. The bulgars were split up between the volga, danube and black sea area, while the Khazars stayed on the steppes a formed a strong united khaganate (which was however unlike Bulgaria eliminated in the long term). The Khazars were allied to the Byzantines during a long period, during which they aided the Byzantines in fighting many wars: against the sassanids (this gave the Khazars and Byzantines control over the Georgia region), the first Khazar-Arab war (which ended with the Arabs being defeated in a battle outside the Khazar town of Balanjar) and the second Khazar-Arab war (resulting in an attempt to arrange a marriage between the warring parts, but the Khazar bride died or was killed - it's unclear which way it was - and it took some more time until peace was achieved). The Khazars originally had a shamanist religion centered around worship of the sky god Tengri and the less important gods Umay (fertility goddess), Kuara (thunder god) and Erlik (god of death), but they were later also influenced by Confucian ideas from China. Like the Scythians, the Khazar women took part in war and governing and held a high status. Around 800 AD the leading Khazars however converted to Judaism and during the coming centuries the people followed, therefore there are still remnants of pagan religion in these areas although the faction has a Jewish religion. The Khazars had a friendly relationship to the Novgorod Rus but after 800 AD hostilities broke out and historically the viking attacks in combination with the Byzantines breaking the long alliance between Byzantines and Khazars led to the fall of the khaganate.
- Starting charachters: King (Bulan?).
- Religion: Jewish
- Surroundings: The Khazars own the area northeast of the Black Sea, including Georgia and areas next to the Caspian sea, including Armenian territory. They also own the Crimea and the Kiev area (however the latter with low public order and weak garrison), and the heavily fortified city of Sarkel at the Don basin. To the south they have the Khaliphate as neighbors, and to the west their allies the Byzantines. Most of the land between Khazar and Novgorod is rebel owned (including the Pechenegs to the east between Volga and the Ural mountains and the Volga-bulgarians next to Volga), but this doesn't mean the Khazars will have an easy time expanding as they wish. The steppes are hard to control due to brigands, large distances which lower public order, and long frontlines which will require a large army or tactical genius if the Khazars are to succeed in expanding much. A strike on the khaliphate to the south would give the Khazars control over some more stratetic lands, but the khaliphate has a strong army and this will in the long term make the Khazars rivals to the Byzantines - can they really afford to break such a strong alliance and make the Byzantines their enemies?
- Army: Khazar royal cavalry, some horse archers and muslim auxiliaries (Arsiyah) of Alan and Khwarazmian origin. Apart from the standing army of the leader (the Bek), the Khazars could also muster numerous levies in times of war. The Khazars have good cavalry but most of their infantry are temporarily recruited levies and/or auxiliaries so they can't rely much on their infantry line in battle. They also have formidable siege engines, for example used in the first Khazar-Arab war, which were probably kept after that. Pecheneg and perhaps also some varangian (Rus vikings) mercenaries were also used.

Magyars
======
- Description: Historically the Magyars moved into the Carpathian Basin around 830 AD, completing the conquest of the area in 896 AD. In 834 AD their empire is concentrated west of the Dnjepr and east of the Carpathian, owning little useful land but with a strong army of skilled horsemen that can support their infantry well. Their conversion to a catholic faith historically led to a good relationship to the Pope, perhaps because they challenged the orthodox power in the Balkans area and thus aided the Pope in the schism fights between catholic and orthodox faith.
- Starting characters: King (?).
- Religion: Catholic
- Surroundings: The magyars own no useful ground at the start, but a strong army, which they'll have to use to conquer some rebel provinces and establish a strong position in the Carpathian Basin area. They'll own Moldavia, and the Carpathia area is up for grabs. To the south there are the Bulgars, but there is a rebel buffer zone between them so the magyars don't need to worry about the Bulgars in a while, as the Bulgars have better provinces to conquer to the south - including Greece. The magyars have relatively little to worry about in terms of military opposition from start - to the north there are mostly rebels - but in the long term their position is problematic, and will most likely result in a conflict with the Holy roman empire, the Bulgars, the Byzantines and perhaps also the population of the Italian peninsula. The area north of the Balkans and south of Poland is perhaps the least strategic position there is at this time when not only the southern, but also the northern front is subject to raids and conquests from strong kingdoms.
- Army: In this period, the Szekely ethnic group constituted the elite of the Hungarian army, which of course also consisted of other ethnic groups in the area. The Szekely horse archers and heavy cavalry will be strong units in the early campaign.

[Rodion Romanovich]

NEWS UPDATE May 8th 2005
===========
Work on campaign map has started. Most provinces in Scandinavia, British Isles, Spain and North Africa have already been decided. More work is needed before provinces of central Europe, Asia minor, Middle east and eastern steppes have been decided - but for those areas, unlike those I have now completed, I'll probably use almost the same provinces as in M:TW.

I decided to throw away the map I've shown part of above, and restart the work on the campaign map, mainly because I want a different "density" of provinces, i.e. I want greater distances between the provinces in British Isles and other areas where there are many cities. The result of this enlargement of the map is that North Africa and the steppes will be harder to conquer and conquer - which is another thing I wanted to achieve. Those who play this mod are supposed to have great problems conquering and holding such areas that were historically hard to conquer and hold, and it should usually be more beneficial to move in another direction when expanding. Another result of this is that you can't simply conquer everything till your reach the map edge and then eliminate one front because the map happens to end there - it's now unlikely you'll ever conquer the provinces closest to the map edge and you can expect trouble there so you'll need to keep troops to guard that area too.

The map will probably also use different terrain, climate etc. than the vanilla R:TW map. The border between snow and no snow for the winter turns will be drawn further north than in vanilla R:TW (but high mountains will still have snow in the winter), to reflect the real situation. There was a small ice age in the 14th century but this is the middle 9th to late 11th century so the snow shouldn't reach that far south.

Screenshots for the campaign map from it's very first alpha state can probably be expected in two weeks.

[roysparky]

Sounds like you've put a lot of effort into the mod so far, great job. Let me know if you need any help.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Sounds like you've put a lot of effort into the mod so far, great job. Let me know if you need any help.

Yeah, I'd appreciate any help I can get ~:). What skills do you have? Skinning and/or modelling? Historian/researcher? Coding?

[Spongly]

Ok, I have only just begun the research, so your help is very welcome. Should scots and picts really be a single faction too?

Yep, they should be called "The Kingdom of Alba" really. The Picts don't really disappear so much as they and the DalRiadan Scots unite into a single kingdom, in fact originally under the King of the Picts, Cinaed MacAlpin. The issue of language is a weird one - both people seem to have spoken Gaelic by this point, possibly under the influence of the Church in the area.

As to religion, the Picts were actually probably Christian from about the year 400 onwards. Bede tells us that St Ninian was the first to convert them.

[The Apostate]

I am quite happy to join the team as a researcher.

Did my degree in history specialising in late antiquity and early medieval period and have a big library covering the period.

Am particularly knowledgeable on the Byzantine and Viking worlds, less so on Islam.

No skill whatsoever as a modeller/skinner but am happy with changing the data export files so can help out there.

General comments:

Magyars in 843 are pagan and remain so until 1000.

Bulgars are also pagan but christianised in 867.

The Danes, Poles and Rus (which is a better term than Novgorod) were still Pagan in 843 and remained so til the later 10th century.

It is highly debatable how Jewish the Khazars were - certainly some of their khagans were converted but the great majority of the population were either Pagan, Muslim or Christian - however I do love the idea of building synagogues...

Conversion is thus a big issue in this period and as there is no way the AI will ever switch religions you will end up with half of your factions starting and remaining pagan.

This is fine if you want a short campaign with lots of different pagan temples to add variety.

However if you want the mod to be open-ended and allow development into the High Middle Ages you would be much better starting at 1000 - at which point almost everyone but the peoples around the Baltic have converted.

While 843 is an era of fragmentation, in 1000 you have much more solid and organised states (although Bulgaria would have to go - disappearing in 1014).

You also have no Fatimids in 843 and pretty much the whole Muslim world except for al-Andalus is part of the Abassid Caliphate - which the AI being what it is will end up swallowing everything just as Egypt does in RTW - whereas in 1000 you have Abassid, Fatimid and Umayyad Caliphates each of which is of roughly equal power.

Re map I can't see much value in including the North Atlantic and Northern Scandinavia - which will just be dead space - just as much of the north and east of the RTW map is.

Personally prefer the Europa Barbarorum or Rome Total Realism maps which do not go as far north but do include Persia - where a lot more of interest is happening.

With an eastern-stretched map you also get to include the Turks as opponents for the Byzantines (again in 843 these are a minor confederation of tribes in Central Asia but in 1000 they control an empire covering much of Persia and the Indus Valley).

Don't think the papacy should be a state in this period (for much of it the Popes were corrupt puppets of the Roman nobility) and of course the Lombard League does not come into existence until the late-1100's (in 843 North Italy was part of the short-lived kingdom of Lotharingia which stretched from Rome to the North Sea and which represents another problem for an 843 start as it disintegrates within a generation).

Will you have a Marian reform event? - strikes me that the transition to the couched lance and crossbow which occurred in the early-mid 11th century would fit this (i.e. before the reform Frankish armies have relatively weak cavalry, after it they have real knights as well as crossbows and a better range of siege equipment - OTOH the Byzantines at about the same time would lose much of their Thematic troops and become more dependant on mercenaries).

[tutankamon]

Hi great idea.. but why have you listed the Danes as a chatholic nation as I recall we didn't become real chatholic until 1099! ~;)

[Spongly]

As far as religion goes, could you not implement conversion in some other way?

For example, pagan temples give you various benefits, but after a fixed time period (like the Marian reform event) you get the option to build churches if you demolish the temples...the churches should give you big benefits to running a well organised and wealthy state in this period, so there should be some political incentive to convert....

[Rodion Romanovich]

I am quite happy to join the team as a researcher.


You are very welcome, The Apostate!



- Magyars in 843 are pagan and remain so until 1000.
- Bulgars are also pagan but christianised in 867.
- The Danes, Poles and Rus (which is a better term than Novgorod) were still -Pagan in 843 and remained so til the later 10th century.
- It is highly debatable how Jewish the Khazars were - certainly some of their khagans were converted but the great majority of the population were either Pagan, Muslim or Christian - however I do love the idea of building synagogues...
- Conversion is thus a big issue in this period and as there is no way the AI will ever switch religions you will end up with half of your factions starting and remaining pagan.
- This is fine if you want a short campaign with lots of different pagan temples to add variety.
- However if you want the mod to be open-ended and allow development into the High Middle Ages you would be much better starting at 1000 - at which point almost everyone but the peoples around the Baltic have converted.
- While 843 is an era of fragmentation, in 1000 you have much more solid and organised states (although Bulgaria would have to go - disappearing in 1014).
- You also have no Fatimids in 843 and pretty much the whole Muslim world except for al-Andalus is part of the Abassid Caliphate - which the AI being what it is will end up swallowing everything just as Egypt does in RTW - whereas in 1000 you have Abassid, Fatimid and Umayyad Caliphates each of which is of roughly equal power.


The starting date has been a big issue that I've thought a lot about. I know that some of the attributes I've given to factions aren't true until some time after the starting date, but it was my intention to make a mod that approximately describes the entire era from starting date to ending date. Moving the starting date forward to 1000 AD is out of the question because that removes the focus from the viking era and there are already mods about those periods. I've chosen a compromise with a starting date in 843 to still be able to keep part of the dark age focus but without starting so early that normans and others would be so far out of the period that they couldn't be factions at all. This way, I can include normans and others even though they're slightly out of the period, in order to make the mod more interesting.

Some of your data above has led me to change my opinion, for example danes and Rus will be pagan, and Fatimids will be Al Andalus. Rebels in North Africa will be very strong, and the Abbassids will have very limited strength early. I'll keep testing until I find a solution that means they won't explode in power like R:TW Egyptians. Novgorod will be called Rus. Hungarians will also be pagan then.

However some things I don't think should be changed: Bulgars will be Christian in the game because 867 is so short after the starting date. The Khazars will be jewish just for the fun factor it adds to have another culture/religion in the game. I'll see if I can make their starting cities have pagan culture from start to give them a culture difference penalty to reflect that it was probably mostly the leaders who had converted, something that'll make the starting years harder for the Khazars. Conversion of any factions are as far as I know impossible to implement so that's why I've chosen to do it this way.



Re map I can't see much value in including the North Atlantic and Northern Scandinavia - which will just be dead space - just as much of the north and east of the RTW map is.

Personally prefer the Europa Barbarorum or Rome Total Realism maps which do not go as far north but do include Persia - where a lot more of interest is happening.

With an eastern-stretched map you also get to include the Turks as opponents for the Byzantines (again in 843 these are a minor confederation of tribes in Central Asia but in 1000 they control an empire covering much of Persia and the Indus Valley).


The reason for this was explained in a news post above. Those provinces are not intended for the player to capture, but if he wishes he can. They being there means the player can't just reach a map edge and eliminate one front to get rid of all problems and need for troops there, then direct all troops in another direction. This means a border along a steppes or desert line will be hard to hold. Not much action will take place far out on the steppes in the mod, but they definitely fill a function in my opinion, by forcing the player to keep a constant defensive force there. North Africa and the steppes will be so spread out that they should really be impossible to hold. Another reason for the expansion of map to the north is the focus on vikings - both their raids and the internal fighting that occurred. The turks don't become interesting until 1000 AD and that's so long after the campaign start that they shouldn't be a faction, because of my decision to stick to 843-1099 but otherwise they'd definitely have a place, and I'd have changed the map with more to the east and less to the north.



Don't think the papacy should be a state in this period (for much of it the Popes were corrupt puppets of the Roman nobility) and of course the Lombard League does not come into existence until the late-1100's (in 843 North Italy was part of the short-lived kingdom of Lotharingia which stretched from Rome to the North Sea and which represents another problem for an 843 start as it disintegrates within a generation).

Will you have a Marian reform event? - strikes me that the transition to the couched lance and crossbow which occurred in the early-mid 11th century would fit this (i.e. before the reform Frankish armies have relatively weak cavalry, after it they have real knights as well as crossbows and a better range of siege equipment - OTOH the Byzantines at about the same time would lose much of their Thematic troops and become more dependant on mercenaries).


I haven't planned any Marian reform yet so I haven't thought through the subject. If we stick to 843-1099, what reforms would be of interest?

It was my intention to represent the Papacy as a state in order to make "senate missions" and excommunication possible, but they aren't really more a state than the SPQR in vanilla R:TW is a state, it's just the only way to represent that. I agree that the Lombard league is out of the period (it was at the time of Barbarossa, wasn't it?), but I wanted a way of implementing the Italian city states as a strong faction enough to challenge the HRE. Rebels would just die too quickly and have no ability to retrain and strenghten their armies etc. It was my plan to have Lombard league as a methafor for this, just like the Greek cities in vanilla R:TW is a methafor for all the different greek city states - an emergency solution because there is the 20 factions limit. Perhaps they should be called "The Italian cities" instead of Lombard league?

I hope you're still interested in the mod despite these approximations of history I've been forced to make in order to be able to keep the time period 843-1099, which was the starting point when I decided to make this mod. It's my intention to stay as true to historical data as possible in all other aspects though, so a skilled historian is very much appreciated. In fact I believe the things I've mentioned here are the only diversions from real history needed, in practically EVERY other aspect there are no obstacles that I see that could prevent total realism.

[Rodion Romanovich]

As far as religion goes, could you not implement conversion in some other way?

For example, pagan temples give you various benefits, but after a fixed time period (like the Marian reform event) you get the option to build churches if you demolish the temples...the churches should give you big benefits to running a well organised and wealthy state in this period, so there should be some political incentive to convert....

I don't know about that. Aren't marian reforms triggered in all "roman" factions simultaneously? I haven't really though about marian reforms much for this mods, but this idea of yours seems interesting - perhaps possible to include.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Hi great idea.. but why have you listed the Danes as a chatholic nation as I recall we didn't become real chatholic until 1099! ~;)

Sorry for that mistake, they'll be pagan in the mod ~:)

[Rodion Romanovich]

After some thinking I've come to the conclusion that I should probably try to add it so that factions can get their religion converted at different dates. Once I've fixed the campaign map and some of the basic unit editing I'll start looking at such features that would definitely add a unique flavor to this mod. But I'm eager to get a campaign map and some test units up quickly, I think it's easier to experiment once those basic details have been fixed.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Here's a temporary province and city list, The Apostate. In case you confirm your interest in helping with this mod, this is the first project I need help with from a historian. These things will be easy to change later even if I start coding with incorrect info here, but it'd be great to have an as accurate list as possible to start from when modelling the campaign map, to save work time etc.

Many of these cities were officially founded later than 843 but one can in some cases assume there were minor villages/towns in the area before that, however, other cities in these areas might have been of greater importance at the time, so the ones I've picked will probably in many cases have to be changed. I've also used much modern spelling for these names, I think it'd be better to use the old spelling if it's possible to find the old, local spelling and names for all these provinces and cities. I've written the list in this format: province_name - settlement_name, comments. We'll also need to fill the list with data regarding whether each settlement will be village,town, large town, city or large city from the start of the mod, as well as what resources and farm level the province should have.

NORWAY AREA
* Central Norway - Kaupang (position close to Oslo but further down the fiord)
* Trondelag - Trondheim
* Lofoten (both islands and part of the mainland, which is where Narvik is situated) - Narvik
* Northern Norway - Tromso
* Hafrsfjord (rebels) - Nord-Jaeren / Stafangr
* Finnmark (rebels) - Kirkenes, situated next to Barents Sea and modern Russian border

SWEDEN AREA
* Roslagen - Sigtuna
* Upland - Upsala
* Ostgothia - Visingso - BETTER CITY NEEDED (visingso is a small island in the lake in that province, whose southern part was used as a fortress - therefore not exactly a good settlement for this province)
* Waestrogothia - Skara
* Gotland - Visby - VISBY NOT BUILT AS AN OFFICIAL CITY AT THIS TIME, but one can assume there was a village/town there. It'll be a province poor in farming and trade of course, as it historically was until the time before the Hansa/Hanse (spelling?).
* Smaland - Kalmar - BETTER CITY NEEDED. THE PROVINCE IS HERE AS FOR STRATEGIC REASONS, TERRAIN IS HEAVY FOREST ETC. because this piece of land shouldn't be part of the Swedish holdings from start. The province name is also a modern one, a better suited old one would be appreciated.
* Samland? - ? - ALSO HERE FOR STRATEGIC REASONS. Any city or village name can do, preferably a city far to the north. This is the northernmost part of
* Halland? - ? - BETTER NAME NEEDED FOR THIS PROVINCE AT THIS TIME. I was considering to use Loedoese (Lödöse) as settlement for the province - at this time. I believe it was a minor trading center in Sweden through the rivers leading from Vaenern (Vänern), so it has stratetic significance even though it's importance might have been reduced later, when the leaders of Waestrogothia strengthened their control over the coastal area south of it and got better ways to the sea from Vaenern?

DENMARK AREA
* Skane - Lund - DON'T SURE IF SKANE WAS CALLED SKANE BACK THEN, AND THE CITY LUND WAS FOUNDED LATER, but one can assume there was at least some sort of settlement in the area. Better, older name for the settlement and province probably needed. Perhaps Lund wasn't among the more significant cities in this area either, so I'm open to better suggestions for settlement name for this province, that constitutes the southernmost part of modern Sweden.
* Zealland - Roskilde (the dot on the map is correctly located now)
* Holseta Land / or Nordfriesland? (in modern Schleswig-Holstein area) - Haithabu / or Hedeby, was the largest nordic city of the viking age according to my sources, therefore it should be a quite big city and not just a town or village.
* North Jutland (northern Jutland) - Viborg - better province perhaps name needed. Settlement will perhaps have good fortifications from start.
* East Jutland (better province name needed, East Jutland is an incorrect representation) - Jelling/Jellinge (the city dot is now correctly located)

ICELAND AREA
* Iceland - Reyjkjavik (village/town) - only one province, so name Iceland is given. However I'm not sure about existence of Reyjkjavik at that time, or the spelling for that part...

IRELAND AREA
I was planning to use the province names below, which are the same as the parts of modern Ireland. I believe it's the best way to split up Éire, because the borders of the viking-conquered areas were almost the same. For example Thorgest will own Ulster and Connacht from start. I'm not entirely sure about the cities though, especially not for Ulster, where I haven't even made any suggestion.
* Ulster - ?, I have no idea what city we should use for this province?
* Connacht (western Ireland) - Limerick (town)
* Leinster (southeast Ireland) - Dubh Linn (town)
* Munster (southwest Ireland) - Cork (village/town)

FINLAND AND BALTICUM AREA
* Karelia (west of Lake Ladoga but not blocking Baltic port for Novgorod province) - ?, I think Finland should be split up into more than one province because of the viking focus of the mod. This will of course be compensated by very low farm income etc. for each of the provinces - conquering them will probably require almost as much garrison cost as it'll contribute to economy.
* Finland (rest of Finland, pretty much) - ?, better name perhaps needed for province. Settlement needed.
* Soumissalmi - ? (village) Where does this place lie? I just heard the name, not sure where it is though. Is this a part of northern Finland? For strategical reasons I'd like to have Finland represented by 3 provinces - Finland, Karelia (with corrections if historical data contradicts these names etc.) and one more to the north.
* Livonia (Estonia and Latvia area) - ?, settlement name needed.
* Lithuania - ?, settlement name needed.

RUSSIA AREA
* Novgorod - Novgorod
* Kiev - Kiev
* Smolensk - ? WHERE PUT SMOLENSK? ACCORDING TO MY SOURCES BULGARIANS AIDED SMOLYANS VS THE BYZANTINES, aren't smolyans the people of Smolensk? Shouldn't that mean Smolensk is close to Bulgaria area? But M:TW map suggests they're further to the north... Help needed!
* Volga-Bulgaria - ?, settlement name needed
* Muscovy - not sure about this one, should it be included? Perhaps better provinces for steppes and Russia area should be used.
* 1 or 2 provinces probably needed between Kiev and Constantinople for Pechenegs and other tribes that had some significance in the area. I can't come up with a good province plan for that area though. Also see East Europe Area below...

STEPPES AREA
* The Crimea - ?, city needed
* Khazar - ?, city needed
* Georgia - ?, city needed
* ...other steppe provinces not planned, needs to be done. Khazar should own several provinces, not just one, so a good, historically relevant splitting up of the area into 1-3 provinces would be good

EAST EUROPE AREA
Many of these need an appropriate city (not sure about provinces either - especially not the Greece area):
* Volhynia? - ?
* Poland - ?
* Prussia? - ?
* Wallachia
* Carpathia
* Bulgaria - Bolgar
* Moldavia
* Macedonia - ?
* Athens? - ?
* Pelopponesse? - ?
* Croatia - ?
* Serbia - ?
* Hungaria? - ? - probably not good province name as hungarians were magyars then, or?
* Austria - ? also probably not very good...
* Bohemia - ?

GERMANY AREA
Same here (not sure about provinces either):
* Saxony - ?
* Pomerania?
* Bavaria - ?
* Swabia? - ?
* Tyrolia? - ?
* Switzerland? - ?
* Friesland? - ?
* Franconia? - ?

WALES AREA
Not very thoroughly researched, but here's a list of some provinces chosen from the M:TW-VI map. A total of 3 provinces is IMO perfect for the game representation of this area, but I don't know if I chose the best 3 provinces:
* Pouis? - ?
* Clwyd? - ?
* Guent? - ?

SCOTLAND AREA
Same as for Wales here...
* Dal riada (western Scotland) - ?
* Moray (northern Scotland) - ?
* Athfotla (middle Scotland) - ?
* Cyil (soutwest Scotland) - ?
* Fib (southern Scotland) - ?

ENGLAND AREA
Same as for Wales here, although I've slightly more control here I think (ahem... hope... ~D ):
* Northumbria - ? (northwest England)
* Beornice - York (east England)
* Mierce/Mercia - ? (middle England)
* West seaxe - ?
* Suth seaxe (southeast of West seaxe)
* Middle seaxe (below Mercia)
* East engle (east England south of Beornice)
* Cerniu - southwest England (is this one supposed to be Welsh-owned from start by the way?)

SPAIN AREA
these need to be checked too. Should Catalonia be a separate province or should I expand Aragon slightly? Which of the cities should I choose for Leon? The latter would be more strategically fun due to it's position at the coast, far away from the other provinces. Which provinces should be owned by Al Andalus and which by Kingdom of Asturia from start?
* Navarre - Pamplona (city)
* Leon - Leon, or Santiago de Compostela
* Portugal - Lissabon
* Andalusia - Sevilla
* Cordoba - Cordoba
* Granada - Granada
* Valencia - Valencia
* Castile - Toledo
* Catalonia - Barcelona
* Aragon - Zaragosa

FRANCE AREA
These provinces need so thorough checking... I did this way too quickly...
* Aquitaine - Bordeaux?
* ? - Orleans
* Ile de France? - Paris?
* Champagne - ?
* Burgundy - ?
* Normandy - ? I wouldn't mind having Normandy represented by more than 1 province in order to strengthen the normans somewhat, but I don't know what those provinces would be called then.
* Britanny - ?
* Flanders - ?
* Alsace - ?
* Toulouse - ?
* Provence - ?
* Lorraine? - ?

ITALY AREA
* Genoa - Genoa
* Venice - Venice
* Milan - Milan
* Tuscany - Florence
* Naples - (byzantine-controlled I believe) Naples
* Sicily (rebels) - Palermo?
* Papal states - Rome (owned by Pope)

NORTH AFRICA AREA
* Morocco - ?
* Algeria - ?
* Tunisia - Tunis
* Sahara - ?
* Libya - Tripoli
* Cyrenaica? - Barka
* Western Egypt - Siwa?
* Nile delta - Alexandria (large city)
* Egypt - Cairo (city) - better name probably needed. Entire Egypt area needs to be fixed, I think.
* Nubia/Abyssinia - ? (town) - although the map won't reach down to Nubia it'd probably be best to have a nubia province. Why? Because in order to get Nubia I'd have to move southern edge of map down and add LOADS of useless desert to the west. By having a fake Nubia a little too far north you can still make them affect the gameplay. However your historical expertise will have to decide if they're important enough to make it worth including them this way. My intention for the province was to have it as only recruit zone for abyssinian guard and/or nubian mercenaries and normally recruitable troops.
* Sinai - ?

ASIA MINOR AREA
* Constantinople - Constantinople (large city)
...the rest not planned yet... Georgia planned though (see steppes provinces). Need help here in order to know which provinces and cities were most important at the time.

MIDDLE EAST AREA
? Not planned yet, but Jerusalem and Antioch will be included. Baghdad also, of course. Province Arabia should have either Mecka or Medina as city, probably Medina unless we want to move the city slightly more north than it in reality is - something I personally don't mind for this or for Nubia, but you might not and besides if we can choose Medina and have it in correct position that's probably better. It also comes down to which city would have most significance at the time. Mecka was of course of religious importance but how were the two in terms of economical/strategical importance? Which one should be on the map to represent Arabia? I believe Mosul should also be one of the cities included in this area. Damascus too.

MEDITERRANEAN ISLANDS
* Baliares - ?
* Corsica - ?
* Sardinia - ?
* Siciliy - ?
* Cyprus - ?
* Crete - ?
* Rhodes - ?

This counts for a total of 123 provinces, plus approximately 20 in the areas that have not yet been planned.

I'll below post the map so we can discuss redrawing of some borders and you can download and draw notes on it in Paint or something to aid the discussion of these provinces and settlements. Put a black pixel for a settlement and a white pixel for a port. A province can be marked by either a red line around the province or by coloring the entire province in a unique color, then I'll understand what you mean.

https://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y191/LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix/map_regions2.gif

[skeletor]

I ton't think you shuld use Oslo as a city. At startingdate, it was only a village (Oslo is celebrating it's 1000nd year this year. The largest city in this area war Kaupang (located a bit further down the fjord, on the west shore).
Kaupang was presumably the largest tradecenter in Norway before 1000ad.

google Kaupang ~:)

-Skel-

[Rodion Romanovich]

Ok, thanks, I've edited it now.

[Meneldil]

These maps might help you :

http://www.culturalresources.com/images/maps/CharlemagneBig.jpg

http://www.euratlas.com/big/big0800.htm#%20here

[Rodion Romanovich]

These maps might help you :

Yes, thanks a lot. I'll edit the province list above when I've had a closer look at the maps and decided how they would best be converted into R:TW engine provinces.

NEWS UPDATE May 11th 2005
===========
Campaign map screenshots postponed. Reasons: 1. Looks like there are more people interested in joining the mod team. This requires some time for planning and coordinating at this stage which takes time from the modding, but in the long term this will be returned by higher quality and faster progress once the planning and coordinating has been done. 2. Doing more detailed planning of provinces before starting will probably save time later, which means the mod as a whole will be complete faster. However this won't prevent me from working on the campaign map terrain, climates etc. so I'll spend some time fixing that while the planning and coordination goes on.

[Lasias Wenson]

The danish cities you listed weren't were important in the 9th century.

On Zealland, Copenhagen was a very small town. The city Roskilde (situated were you placed Copenhagen) was very important as it was the capital of Zealland before Denmark were united.

In North Jutland, Viborg was the most important town, it was another danish capital before Denmark was united. I think it actually was one of the danish fortifications.

Odense (my home town) was very small at this time and should not be a province capital, instead it should be Jelling (english) or Jellinge (danish) as it was the capital of the united Denmark. It was positioned were you placed Odense on your map (Odense really lies on the island in the middel of Denmark).

I don't think you should include an East Jutland as there was no really important town there.

[Rodion Romanovich]

@Lasias Wenson: Thanks for your help! I've now corrected the list according to the info in your post.

[The Apostate]

Will look at provinces and cities in detail over the weekend.

In the interim some more general comments about the starting date and factions.

Agree if the focus is to be the Vikings and it is not going to be just another medieval mod then 1000 is too late.

However for various reasons 843 is still too early and IMO 911 would be better:

1-3 Norway, Denmark and Sweden

Historically these were not unified kingdoms in 843 but collections of kingdoms and jarldoms.

The armies that ravaged NW Europe in the 860's and 870's were actually collections of raiding kings and jarls.

So obscure is this period that we're not even sure where in Scandinavia the most famous raiders came from and there are major questions about the identity of figures like Ivar the Boneless and Olaf the White (AP Smyth's Scandinavian Kings in the British Isles is the best book on this period but almost unobtainable).

Places like Dublin have yet to be founded or are just raiding camps.

By 911 the 3 Scandinavian kingdoms are a lot closer to unification and we have a lot more detail on rulers, towns etc as we are entering the main saga age.

While 843 has the attraction of being before the great Viking raids and invasions of the mid and late 9th century, in practice the AI will never send armies and fleets out of Scandinavia anyway (they will also have this problem with the Barbarian Invasions XP and it will be interesting to see if they can fix it and make the barbarians attack Rome instead of attacking the barbarian faction nearest to them).

In fact I hardly ever played the MTW VI campaign precisely because the AI vikings never attacked, while if you played as vikings even with the plunder rule you never had the money to establish survivable bridgeheads.

In 911 there are well established Viking colonies in Dublin, Iceland, Orkney, Man, York and the Danelaw (Normandy and Russia are separate issues) - of course it will be fudging it to give these to the Danes and Norwegians as they were mostly independent states but doing so will make the Viking factions much more aggressive and likely to attack the Scots, Irish and Saxons rather than each other.

4-7 Welsh, Scots, Irish and Saxons

Similarly while in 843 all of these peoples are divided into multiple kingdoms (Kenneth MacAlpin only attacked the Picts in 843 and never subdued Strathclyde) with a bit of fudging they are all much more united by 911.

Wessex in particular is just one of three Anglo-Saxon kingdoms in 843 but rules all of England that is not Danish in 911.

8 Normandy

There is no Normandy in 843 as the Normans are still all in Scandinavia.

If you want the Normans as a distinctive culture with christianity, knights, motte and bailey castles etc the earliest you can do that is 911 when Hrolf the Ganger is granted Normandy

9 Rus

The early history of the Rus is still a mystery but it is fairly clear that while there were individual bands of Varangians carving out principalities for themselves in 843, to have a unified Rus faction that is distinguished from the Vikings and otehr Slavs you again need to start in 911 - at which point we have Grand Princes based at Kiev who actually sign a treaty with the Byzantines that very year.

10-12 Magyars, Khazars, Bulgars

In 843 the Magyars, Khazars and Bulgars are all pagans but by 911 the Bulgars are Christian and the Khazars (or at least their rulers who are what matters at our level) are Jews.

In addition in 843 the Magyars are still subject to the Khazars and living on the steppes, whereas in 911 they have moved to Hungary and became a major military power.

13 Poles

in 843 we do not even knew if there was a Polish tribe and the dominant Slav power (and the only one significant enough to be a faction) is Moravia.

Although in 911 the Poles were still insignificant they were a lot closer to their actual emergence into history in the mid-tenth century.

14-16 Muslim States

If you want a mod that reflects the whole 843-1099 era then you really need three Muslim factions: Umayyads in Spain, Fatimids in North Africa and Abassids in Iraq.

Problem is in 843 there were no Fatimids - the family only established themeselves by seizing Tunis in 909.

Instead you have a vast Abassid Caliphate stretching from the Atlantic to the borders of China which the AI being what it is will raodily conquer the rest of the world and represent little challenge for a player.

However by 911 the Abassids have broken down into a number of more manageable states (most of which other than the Umayyads and Fatimids still paid lip service to the caliph in Baghdad).

If you choose 911 Spain to goes to the Umayyads, Tunisia and Algeria to the Fatimids and if you give the Abassid provinces in Egypt and Persia high unrest and small garrisons so they quickly revolt you should have playable Muslim factions.

17 Italians

843 presents the problem of Lotharingia.

As the map in Meneldil's post shows very clearly there was a big Frankish kingdom stretching from the North Sea to Rome under the Emperor Lothar I.

However this broke up in 855 on Lothars death into the kingdoms of Italy, Lorraine and Burgundy and within a generation Lorraine and Burgundy had further subdivided into Upper and Lower states.

Italy however was still a unified kingdom in 911 and remained so until Otto II crossed the Alps in 962 and refounded the Holy Roman Empire.

Thus while a separate Italian faction is wrong for 843 it is valid for 911.

There is some question about how far south they will go - in 843 and 911 the Byzantines held the southern coasts (and until 878 part of Sicily) and there were several independent Lombard principalities SE of Rome - these could either be rebels or part of Italy.

18 Byzantines

Byantium in 843 was a relatively weak state under an infant emperor (Michael III) who was the last of his dynasty.

It is also beset with rebellions by Iconcolast and aulician heretics who at several points control much of the empire.

By 911 we have a well-established and long-lasting dynasty (the Macedonians who lasted from 867 to 1056) in control and the empire is beginning its reconquests (but is not the superpower it was in say 1025 by which point it had abdsorbed Bulgaria, Syria, Armenia, the eastern Mediterranean Islands and South Italy).

Asturias

Dubious about including Asturias as a faction as they pretty much did nothing except cower in their little corner until the Umayyads disintegrated in the mid-eleventh century and even then split up into Castile, Leon, Aragon etc as they began the reconquista.

Consequently I would just make them powerful and aggressive rebels


19-20 France and Germany

in 843 these are both ruled by Carolingians but by 911 the German Carolingians have gone and were being replaced by the Saxon kings, while in France the last Carolingians are being displaced by the Capetians.

21 Rome

The papacy will always be a problem.

In the ninth and tenth centuries Rome was effectively a city state ruled by rapacious local nobles who put corrupt and frequently degenerate puppets on the Papal throne while real power was held by a figure known as the Consul or Senator (there was no longer a senate in Rome).

Even after Otto II took the city in 962 it still took several generations before the Cluniac reforms made the Papacy the authoritative institution we love or loathe today.

If you're stuck woth the Senate-Family relationship I suppose you can make the Julii France, Brutii Germany and Scipii Italy in which case they won't attack each other (which is not historically accurate) and the conquest of Rome is equivalent to the same event in RTW.


This adds up to 22 factions with the rebels so you'd still have to drop someone - my candidate would be the Welsh who were by far the weakest and most disunited of the peoples of the British isles and better left as rebels.

Of course one can hope that the new XP will remove the faction cap but nothing I've seen so far suggests that it will.

[The Apostate]

Several typos in last post - the aulicians mentioned under Byzantines should be Paulicians, others are fairly obvious.

[The Apostate]

Some thoughts on conversion:

What we need for the Norwegians, Danes, Swedes, Rus and Magyars are tech tree that are pagan at the lower levels and christian at the higher.

So is it possible to have say temples to Odin at levels 1-3 but a Christian Mission at level 4?

Higher level military and economic would also be made dependant on the Christian Mission being built.

i.e. without conversion the pagans stay at the same restricted levels as barbarians in RTW and with it they can get access to the same stuff as Christian feudal states.

While on the subject some more variety to Christian buildings would be nice - Churches dedicated to Saints and Monastic orders would give different types of bonuses (yeah I know these are all fantasy elements but are still worth considering).

For instance the famous shrine to St Michael the Archangel at Monte Gargano in Southern Italy attracted Norman pilgrims who ultimately set up a state there.

You could either have this as a wonder (The Holy Sepulchre at Jerusalem, Grand Mosques of Damascus and Cordoba, Hagia Sophia at Constantinople, St James at Compostoella and St Peters at Rome could be the other wonders) or as a church that can only be built in a province with a hidden resource of St Michael - so you can't have cathedrals of St Michael turning out +3 exp troops all over Europe.

Sts George and Demetrius fulfilled a similar role as warrior saints in the orthodox world (in fact most of our depictions of Byzantine soldiers are actually depictions of the these saints and of old testament kings)

Benedictine monasteries would also give agricultural bonuses, Marian churches fertility bonuses etc.

[Rodion Romanovich]

I'm still a little dubious about the starting date. Going as far as 911 is a little too much in my opinion. The fact that Normandy didn't exist until 911 is a minor inaccuracy if the mod starts in say ~880 AD or after - at least compared to the inaccuracies caused by AI and game mechanics. However, Normandy is probably too far out of the time frame in the 843 AD, so therefore I agree the starting date should be slighly later, but not be moved as far as to 911 AD. If you can find an interesting date around 850-900 that would make sense to have as a starting date, I'd like that.

Some replies to your list of reasons:
1-3. The lack of unity for the Scandinavian factions is imo a bonus, as it gives them a challenging start. Regarding not yet founded settlements, I see that as a minor problem if they were historically founded shortly after the starting date. Some approximations have to be done with the starting situation, or it'll pay back as a more inaccurate situation later in the game. I'm of the opinion that things that happened shorter than 50 years after the starting date aren't necessarily bad to have included from start.

Re AI not being able to send fleets, I've actually seen use of fleets from several AI factions in vanilla R:TW. One of the tricks is to have some rebel territories up for grabs in the British isles area, another trick, that could be relevant for the Danes, would be to have them own one province in the British isles from start - that'll make them want to reinforce their hold there.

4-7 The reason why I wanted scots, irish, welsh and saxons despite their inferior military strength compared to for example Byzantines and French in this period, was because a. gameplay-wise it's fun to have some really weak factions mixed with the stronger in order to grant a challenge to better players, b. the focus was on British isles. Even though Welsh were weak and mostly not united, I like the idea of having the ability to play them.

8 Normandy - I agree 843 was a bit too early. A compromise between 843 and 911 would be the best imo.

9 Rus - A strong Rus gives a strange balance imo. AI will expand far too quickly and perhaps also try to attack Scandinavia, which will then probably lose. Having a small Novgorod culture centered mostly around Novgorod will probably work better with AI, and make them more challenging to play. Still, they'll be relatively strong compared to the Swedish who are by then not united, and the Danes and Norwegians will prefer moving west so the Rus will be weak but still not likely to be conquered but instead grow steadily through the game. I think that's a better reflection of them - a growing empire in the 9th century than an overpowered dynasty (that will tend to conquer too much land) in the 10th century.

10-12 Magyars, Khazars, Bulgars religions. I explained this above, the magyar conversion however being too late to have from start if we start in 843 AD. Adding a conversion event, if that's at all possible, would solve all this. If we move the starting date to my newly suggested ~880 AD we'd still obtain the best results game mechanics-wise by letting Bulgars be orthodox, Magyars be pagan and Khazars be jewish. Around 880 AD I also believe Hungary have moved further into the northern Balkans area than in 843 AD. Having them as a too strong power from start would probalby upset balance.

13 Poles, the faciton limit can't allow including the Poles. Also, the first Polish kingdom fell pretty quickly, so Polish can't be in the mod, no matter what time we choose. Even though they were more important than the Welsh, I'm afraid I can't accept removing the Welsh, due to the Viking focus. I've already removed Mercians and Northumbrians among others up there.

14-16 Muslim States - I believe there are two choices for around 843 and 880: Al Andalus + Abbassids, or Fatimids + Abbassids. If we move far forward Abbassids would be Mamluks. I think I prefer Al Andalus + Abbassids, but it's just a matter of taste. I actually like having a "Spanish" Asturia too, just because they started in a hard position and they'd be fun to play. Besides, most muslim factions would have a similar fighting styles in many ways, so including some Iberian peninsula catholic faction would add variety.

17 Italians - After looking at those maps I've decided to replace Lombards with Lotharingia. Lotharingia will have little control and high unrest etc. in their northern provinces but good strength in modern northern Italy. That will be an accurate depiction of the decline and fall of the middle part of the Frankish empire.

18 Byzantines - I actually prefer having the Byzantines as a weak but rising power, for balance reasons. After all they already have the impregnable Constantinople from start. I know about the Iconoclasm and heretics etc., but 843 AD was the end of some of these problems and my sources claim it's approximately after 843 AD that the Byzantines enter their "golden age".

21 Rome - I'll make the pope pretty weak in the mod. "If you're stuck woth the Senate-Family relationship I suppose you can make the Julii France, Brutii Germany and Scipii Italy in which case they won't attack each other (which is not historically accurate) and the conquest of Rome is equivalent to the same event in RTW" - Yes, that's probably what I'd do.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Some thoughts on conversion

As I said I'm still not sure conversion is possible to implement. I'll do some research on the subject first, so perhaps we shouldn't yet waste time on planning for a system WITH conversion. Just using a tech tree will still keep the culture penalty when conquering settlements from Christians, and also probably make all new buildings still show up as for example "church (pagan)" just like in vanilla R:TW: "muster field (barbarian)" etc. unless we can find some script or something that can change culture for a faction.

While discussing religion and buildings I might as well post most of my tech tree plans so far. I haven't planned anything for Khazars or Magyars yet, these are still half-generic building trees mostly centered around the catholic factions.

NOTE! MOST UNITS MENTIONED BELOW (FOR MILITARY BUILDINGS) ARE GENERIC PLACEHOLDERS! FOR MOST FACTIONS THEY'LL NEED TO BE REPLACED BY UNIQUE UNITS. PLEASE DON'T MISUNDERSTAND ME AND THINK I MEAN THESE UNITS WILL BE EXACTLY THE FINAL UNITS WHICH WILL BE TRAINED IN THESE BUILDINGS!

RELIGION RELATED BUILDINGS
======================
- Main ideas: All faction have temples or similar which grant a happiness bonus. The pagan factions also have different temple types which will grant different boni. Choosing to honor a certain God in a certain province means locking the ability of honoring another God in that very province. Most factions will have one or more "fanatic" units, which will be trained in one of their holy buildings.

- Vikings: three Gods to choose between (and what boni they grant apart from the happiness): Odin (+morale, +xp, enable training of berserkers), Thor (+armor +weapons), Freya (+population growth). Vikings can also keep public order up by the happiness created by a "tavern", which can then be upgraded to a "mead hall".

- Catholics: chapel (no boni except happiness), church (+1 xp, +5% law), cathedral (+much happiness, +1 morale, enable training of catholic fanatics - clubmen?). Church will also unlock "monastery", which grants some extra happiness and is cheaper than cathedral. Perhaps monastery could be replaced by monasteries of diffent types, in case the game mechanics allow for it. There's a maximum of 60 different building series, so if there's room after we've planned the rest, I like the idea of replacing "monastery" here by monasteries belonging to different religious orders. The Holy Sepulchre at Jerusalem should be a wonder which grants happiness in all provinces just like the Zeus statue in R:TW. The Holy Sepulchre will really be "The Holy Sepulchre, the Mosque of the rock and the Jewish temple", which means it's logical that all factions can get a happiness bonus from conquering it (except the pagans, but they'll eventually have converted to Christianity so it makes sense there too). The reason for this is because I doubt you can make wonders that only give boni to certain factions. Perhaps wonders could be replaced by "important cities", where those could be Jerusalem, Constantinople, Rome and perhaps some more - granting specific boni. I believe we'll have to discuss that further...

- Orthodox: chapel, church (+1 xp, +5% law), cathedral (+much happiness, +1 morale, can't think of any specific fanatics here...). Church would unlock
Sts George and Demetrius monasteries just like church for catholics unlock catholic monasteries.

- Muslims: minarete, mosque (+1 xp +5% law), grand mosque (+much happiness, +1 morale, enables training of al-murabitin fanatics for western muslims, some other unit for eastern muslims - if at all they'll have one unlocked by this one).

Grand Mosque of Damascus and Cordoba should be buildings that can't be constructed by any factions but exist in these provinces from start, with culture set to "muslim". Same thing with shrine to St Michael the Archangel at Monte Gargano in Southern Italy - with culture set to "catholic". With this system, Hagia Sophia at Constantinople, St James at Compostoella and St Peters at Rome could also be buildings of this type. I'm against making buildings that have a meaning only to one of the cultures a wonder as I believe the wonder gives boni to conquerors no matter of which culture he is. In some cases, these special buildings could be constructable in only one province and not be there from start - a solution perfect for the cases when the building wasn't historically created at the starting date of the mod.

I haven't planned for the Magyars and Khazars yet.

AGRICULTURE AND HEALTH
====================
I suggest farming income is given a greater importance than in R:TW compared to trade. The base farming level and the farm upgrades will be modelled realistically by letting base farming represent fertility in the province, and in the cases where crop yield was relatively good at this time despite perhaps a low fertility, this should be represented by already having one or more farming upgrades in the province from start. Here are the farming levels:
- Forest clearings (already available from start in a lot of provinces)
- Farms (farms now more organized and effective)
- Crop rotation
- Farming technology (by letting some fields lie fallow effectiveness is increased further even though all land isn't used at the time, and better ploughs allows every peasant to take care of a larger area without more effort which can increase crop yields per year)
- Irrigation (expensive and time consuming to construct, irrigation can in proper climate result in 2 or even 3 harvests per year - something that increases yields a lot)

And the health buildings:
- Proper sewage (+10% health bonus, separating the sewage water from drinking water is a simple step that improves health a lot - however this technique isn't commonly known and it's cheaper and faster for lazy people to use same flow for both because they have to dig less...)
- Herbal medicine (+15% health bonus, much herbal medicine is unscientific and can even cause disease when there isn't any, but there are some medicines which are actually very effective at driving out evil)
- Water pipes (+20% health bonus, soap made from animal fat, and water pipes leading water into a house is advanced technology for many, but a few of the richest as well as church representatives who are spreading their faith are also bringing technologies like these with them).

PORTS, TRADERS, ROADS
===================
Roads:
- Paths
- Mud roads
- Paved roads (only available for catholics, orthodox and muslims)

Trading (all of these improve trade - and perhaps also population growth):
- Trader
- Market
- Merchant
- Master merchant (+10 happiness)

Docks/harbors:
- Port
- Shipyard
- Dockyard

Good seafaring nations such as vikings can perhaps not create master merchant, but will in return get trade boni from their ports, shipyards and dockyards.

BLACKSMITH AND ARMOR
===================
- Blacksmith (+1 to all weapons)
- Master blacksmith (+2 to all weapons)
- Armorer (+1 to all armor, will NOT require blacksmith in order to be constructed)
- Master armorer (+2 to all armor)

I suggest these upgrades buildings should ONLY be possible to build in provinces with the "iron" resource, at least the blacksmith buildings should IMO.

MINING
=====
I'd like several different mine types. I've checked and it's possible to implement this. All mines should exist as "x mine" and "large x mine" where x is the name of the metal recieved from the mine.
- Salt
- Copper
- Silver
- Gold

MILITARY RELATED BUILDINGS
======================
I had in mind a system where you have to construct one building for making of weapons, enabling recruitment of a militia force using these weapons, and an extra building for training of soldiers (unlocked after creating the weapons construction building), enabling training of professional soldiers using these weapons. There are also specific town guard/police force buildings which can only train milita. I've used generic unit names below - the respective factions will of course have to use more specific names (and have more specific looks) for the units. In cases where no specific units are known we might have to use a generic unit in each field. Militia units can also be generic in most cases.

MILITIA:
- Muster field (javelinmen, town watch, peasants), Town militia (urban militia), Police force (urban guard, +5 law bonus).

BOWS:
- Bowmaker (militia bowmen), Bowmaker's workshop (militia archers), Bowmaker's guild (militia archer +1 xp), Master bowmaker (crossbowmen, pavise crossbowmen).
- Practise target (bowmen, requires bowmaker), Archery range (archers, requires bowmaker's workshop, +1 to missile weapons).
- Some factions will have exceptions, for example Welsh will be able to train longbowmen and bulgarians perhaps bulgarian brigands, and Lotharingia get crossbowmen for lower cost perhaps and be the only who can recruit the Genoese crossbowmen as standard units rather than mercenaries.

SPEARMEN:
Spearmen don't require advanced buildings for training, and spearmen are seldom professionals so no special training buildings are available to improve the spear units.
- Spearmaker (wooden-spear militia), Spearmaker's workshop (spear militia, spearmen), Spearmaker's guild (heavy spear militia, heavy spearmen), Master spearmaker (feudal foot sergeants, halberdiers).
- Saxons will have fyrdmen to replace appropriate units above (perhaps the generic heavy spearmen and spearmen with fyrdmen +1xp and fyrdmen, respectively).

CAVALRY:
Cavalry is a professional force that takes much training so here there'll be very important to build the training buildings to improve cavalry quality. "Nobles" are the soft version of "knights" below.
- Horse farmer (militia cavalry), Stables (militia swordscavalry, militia spear cavalry), Cavalry stables (mounted sergeants, dark-age nobles, dismounted dark-age nobles), Elite cavalry stables (feudal cavalry sergeants, feudal nobles, dismounted feudal nobles).
- Cavalry training field (swordscavalry, spear cavalry, requires Stables),
Cavalry training grounds (dark-age knights, dismounted dark-age knights, requires Cavalry stables), Cavalry academy (feudal knights, dismounted feudal knights, royal knights, requires Elite cavalry stables).
- The cavalry tech tree above is adapted for catholic factions. Pagans will have more primitive cavalry, Rus will have druzhinas instead of royal knights and boyars instead of nobles, and perhaps more focus on light and missile cavs than on heavy knights. Muslims will use much lighter cavs and also unlike the others have camels, and little or no super heavy cavalry. Byzantines will of course have their cataphracts - but they'll be available earlier in the tech tree than catholic cavalry of the same class.

SWORDSMEN:
- Swordsmaker (sword militia, axe militia), Swordsmaker's workshop (militia swordsmen, militia axemen), Swordsmaker's guild (dark age men-at-arms militia), Master swordsmaker (feudal men-at-arms militia).
- Barracks (swordsmen, axemen, requires Swordmaker's workshop), Army barracks (dark age men-at-arms, requires Swordmaker's guild), Military academy (feudal men-at-arms, requires Master swordsmaker).
- Perhaps feudal men-at-arms should be available more easily than above on second thoughts but I'll edit it later. Saxons will have huscarles swordsmen and huscarles axemen rather than the generic units here as their best swordsmen. Welsh and Irish should perhaps use some kind of generic "celtic swordsmen" and "chosen celtic swordsmen" instead of the standard swordsmen. Irish should perhaps have the bonnachts and gallowglasses of M:TW (haven't checked about them yet). For scots there'll be highland clansmen, perhaps one unit of highland clansmen and a unit "elite clansmen" too.

SIEGE WEAPONS:
I suggest there'll be a lot of siege weapon crew mercenaries around, especially far south. However there should be some training facilities for siege weapons too, I think. I haven't planned those yet, though.

ACADEMIES
=========
Available to muslims, catholics and orthodox. Perhaps muslims should have more academy levels as they were better than the Christians at most sciences at this time.

WALLS
=====
I mentioned this in an earlier post, but:
- Wooden pallisade
- Wooden wall
- Large wooden wall (possible to move on top of it)
- Stone wall (possible to move on top of it)
- Large stone wall (possible to move on top of it)

I think it'd be fun to edit so that there can be a wooden type of wall that troops can move on top of. I don't yet know if it's possible to implement but I hope it is - otherwise we can stick to standard walls (slightly edited in look, though).

[Captain-Tiguris]

Your mod seems like ours, Norse: Total War.

Here is the forums: http://12.freebb.com/index.php?freebb=norsetotalwar

Maybe we could work together?

Get around to pming me.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Your mod seems like ours, Norse: Total War.

Here is the forums: http://12.freebb.com/index.php?freebb=norsetotalwar

Maybe we could work together?

Get around to pming me.

lol, skeletor from your team PMed me yesterday about cooperation, to which I responded that I was interested in a cooperation. He has apparently not informed you about our correspondence yet, but this is good news because it means at least 2 of your 3 team members like the idea of cooperating with me. So I repeat to you what I said yesterday to skeletor: I'd be very glad if you would merge with my mod team, that way we'll be able to make a better mod, and also be able to complete it faster.

btw I love this part in your forums ~;) :
"There is a modder (LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix) (yes that is hes name) over at the .org forum" ~D

[Captain-Tiguris]

Well I wouldn't of believed it!

[Rodion Romanovich]

Well I wouldn't of believed it!

Ok, lol

Anyway, I need to know what your mod team decided regarding the cooperation so I can plan what to do in terms of modding during the coming weeks.

[skeletor]

Oh yes that.... lol, I tried to spell it without ctlr+v/c, didn't work :dizzy2:

But does this mean that we'r joining? Could you please stop by our forum (http://12.freebb.com/index.php?freebb=norsetotalwar) for some discussion?

Cheers :medievalcheers:

-Skel-

[Rodion Romanovich]

I've posted in your forum now :medievalcheers: You are welcome to join Age of Vikings and Fanatics. Please tell me what your skills are so we can plan who should carry out which work.

[Captain-Tiguris]

I have no real modding skills (though I am learning to skin). I do do research and generally keep everything accounted for an in tact/up to date.

[Rodion Romanovich]

am learning to skin [...] I do do research

If you know some skinning you'll be able to contribute well to the mod effort. If you aren't a historian, The Apostate will be lead researcher and it's then up to him to decide whether or not there is anything regarding research that he can hand over to you. If you are a historian, you could discuss with The Apostate how to split up research work - for example you take a few factions each etc. In any case, if you have any skinning skills at all there'll certainly be work for you to do in that field.

[Rodion Romanovich]

@ALL: It would perhaps be good if all who have joined the mod team would add a link to this thread in their signature. Perhaps I'll design a logo that we can include in the signature as well.

@The Apostate: Maximus Aurelius want to perhaps enlist as a researcher. Do we need more researchers or can you handle all the research by yourself? Because you joined first, you are the head of research and as such I believe you should decide whether or not any more researchers should join.

[Captain-Tiguris]

So are we together?

[Captain-Tiguris]

And we need a name that we can agree on. If we are together.....

[Ianofsmeg16]

yo!
great idea for a mod, i saw that you were going to include the welsh. to help them, as they may be outclassed as the game progresses, make cornwall(cornwalum) and devon(defnasscir) seperat prvinces, cornwalll was under welsh control at this time anyway, and devon was the heartland of Dumnonia which was arthur kingdom, if the welsh capture this they will be able to create Dumnonian heavy cavalry, arthurs cavary. This would help the welsh later in game by giving them a heavy cavalry arm

[Rodion Romanovich]

So are we together?

@Captain-Tiguris: Yes. I'll add you in the team list in the first post. I'm awaiting a response from skeletor too. Finally, I wonder what happened to The Apostate, as he haven't posted here in a while.

@The Apostate: Are you still there, The Apostate? I'm looking forward to your correction of my province list. Any idea of how long it'll take before I can expect it? I've found out that it's hard to do much of the campaign map work before having the province and cities list, as the positioning of cities will affect how terrain like mountains etc. can be modelled, and that pretty much stops work on all parts of the campaign map except choice of climates and some other smaller things. Don't feel stressed, but I'd like to know how far you've gotten and when I can expect the revised province list.

@ALL mod team members:
1. Yes, the mod name needs to be agreed upon. I personally don't mind what name we choose but I prefer mine ~D Also, I believe the name Norse total war would hide the fact that other parts of the world are included as well.
2. I can make a logo after we've agreed completely about the name of the mod.

@ian_of_smeg16: Hi, the Welsh will have their powerful longbowmen, but otherwise be a hard faction to play, as their starting provinces give little income. However, if they capture lands that give them more income, they'll be able to train and support more powerful cavalry. Exactly what cavalry that will be has not yet been decided. They'll also own more than one province from start - probably around 4 provinces. The names and drawing of borders between the provinces is still under consideration.

[Ianofsmeg16]

@ian_of_smeg16: Hi, the Welsh will have their powerful longbowmen, but otherwise be a hard faction to play, as their starting provinces give little income. However, if they capture lands that give them more income, they'll be able to train and support more powerful cavalry. Exactly what cavalry that will be has not yet been decided. They'll also own more than one province from start - probably around 4 provinces. The names and drawing of borders between the provinces is still under consideration.

ok, so maybe consider cornwall as a province
cool
:charge: :duel: :duel: :charge:

[Rodion Romanovich]

Here's an improved version of the province list, however still not complete:
City levels will be: village, town, large town, city, large city.

NORWAY AREA
* Hordaland - Bergen (town)
* Hafrsfjord (rebels) - Nord-Jaeren / Stafangr (town)
* Vaestfold - Kaupang (position close to Oslo but further down the fiord) (large town)
* Trondelag - Trondheim (town)
* Hologaland (modern Lofoten area and mainland next to it) - Narvik (better city needed) (village)
* Northern Norway - Tromso (village)
* Finnmark (rebels) - Kirkenes (situated next to Barents Sea and modern Russian border) (village)

DENMARK AREA
* Sjaelland (Zealland) - Roskilde
* Holseta land (modern Nordfriesland, in modern Schleswig-Holstein area) - Haithabu / Hedeby (was the largest nordic city of the viking age, will have much importance and fairly large population)
* North Jutland (better province name needed) - Aalborg or Viborg (settlement will have good fortifications, was historically part of Danish fortification systems in the area)
* Middle Jutland - Jelling

ICELAND AREA
* Iceland - Reyjkjavik (village/town)

IRELAND AREA
* Connacht (western Ireland) - Limerick
* Muma (today Munster, southwest Ireland) - Cork
* Ulaid (Ulster) - Armagh
* Laigin (Leinster, southeast Ireland) - Clontarf

SPAIN AREA
* Navarre - Pamplona
* Leon - Santiago de Compostela (Leon also possible settlement for this province, but I chose Santiago de Compostela)
* Portugal - Lissabon
* Andalusia - Sevilla
* Cordoba - Cordoba
* Granada - Granada
* Valencia - Valencia
* Castile - Toledo
* Catalonia - Barcelona
* Aragon - Zaragosa

ITALY AREA
* Liguria - Genoa
* Austria - Venetia (Venice)
* Langobardia - Mediolanum (Milan)
* Tuscia - Pisa
* Papal states (owned by Pope) - Rome
* Beneventum - (byzantine-controlled) Naples
* Sicily (rebels) - Palermo

RUSSIA AND STEPPES AREA
* Pripet - Chernigov
* Novgorod - Novgorod
* Smolensk - Smolensk
* Kiev - Kiev
* The Crimea - Cherson
* Taiga (the northeasternmost province) - Rostov
* Volga-Bulgaria (very far to the east) - Bolgar (at volga-kama bifurcation)
* Ryazan - Ryazan (south of Rostov, south of part of Volga, close to tip of Don)
* Khazar - Sarkel (just southeast of Donets/Don bifurcation)
* Azov sea - Timutarkan (north of the little river)
* Volga - Atil (at Volga delta)

NORTH AFRICA AREA
* Morocco - Tanger
* Tunisia - Tunis
* Fezzan (Sahara) - Ghadamis or Djavan
* Tripolitania - Tripoli
* Cyrenaica - Barka
* Libya - Alexandria (large city)
* Egypt (also covering the Sinai) - Cairo / Fostat or Mephis? (city)
* Nubia - Assuan (town) - although the map won't reach down to Nubia it'd probably be best to have a nubia province. This is the only recruitment zone for abyssinian guard and other nubian troops.

GERMANY AND EASTERN EUROPE AREA
* Alamannia (Swabia, just north/northeast of Upper Burgundy or Switzerland) - Strassburg
* Francia Orientalis/Francia (Franconia, north of Swabia) - Magontia?/Mains
* Thuringia (north of Franconia) - Erfurt
* Vendland (north of Thuringia) - Brema (Bremen) or Hammaburg (Hamburg)
* Saxonia - Jumme / Jomsborg
* Bavaria (just east of Swabia, stretching much further south than modern Bavaria - covering modern Austria etc.) - Regensburg or Salzburg
* Cartinthia (maybe not to be included in the final province list) - Salzburg
* Bohemia - Praga
* Moravia (southern border is Danube, Bohemia lies to the southwest of Moravia) - Olmütz
* Pannonia (south of Moravia, bordering Croatia to the south) (perhaps owned by avars rebels if any were still left there around 843 AD? Pannonia is almost same as modern Hungary) - Buda
* Carpathia - Pest
* Wallachia - Tergovist
* Bulgaria - Plovdiv (just north of the little river)
* Poland - Krakow
* Moldavia - Pereyaslavets
* Croatia - Zara or Spalato
* Sorabia (Serbia) - Prishtina?
* Albania (maybe) - Dyrrhachium
* Macedonia - Thessalonika
* Athens - Athens
* Pelopponesse (Byzantine-held) - Mistra



SWEDEN AREA (almost complete)
* Svealand - Birka (this city will be really cool - on a small island in the middle of the lake Mealaren) (town)
* Upland - Upsala (town)
* Ostgothia - ? (town name needed)
* Waestrogothia - Skara (large town)
* Gotland - Visby (village or town)
* Smaland (rebels) - ? (village name needed)
* Samland - ? (village name needed)
* Halland - Loedoese (town)
* Skani (will be owned by Danes from start) - ? (city needed)

FINLAND AND BALTIC AREA (almost complete)
THANKS TO wilpuri and others from the FURY OF THE NORSEMEN mod for providing me with most of the info for Finland and Baltic area provinces listed below:
Finland
* Häme (middle west coast of Finland) - Kokemäki (slightly south of modern Vaasa) (village or town)
* Vakka-Suomi (southwest coast of Finland) - Turku (same place as modern Turku) (town)
* Karjala (means Karelia I presume, north of Lake Ladoga, stretching far up north) - Käkisalmi (at northwestern tip of Lake Ladoga) (village or town)
* Kainuunmaa (north west coast) - Kainuu (perhaps not correct city?, far north) (village)
* Inkerinmaa/Ingria - Laatoknakaupunki (very close to Novgorod but situated at the southern shore of Lake Ladoga) (village or town)
Further south
* Lithuania - Daugava (further south than modern Lithuania)
* Prussia - Truso (just east of Gdansk)
* Livonia - ? (north of Lithuania)
* Saaremaa (the island at opening of Gulf of Riga) - Kuressaare (city lies on side of island facing Gulf of Riga)
* Revala & Sakala/Revala (northern Estonia if Revala, if both Revala & Sakala then covering all of Estonia) - Rafala (same place as Tallinn)
* Courland/Curland (southwest half of Lativa) - Seeburg (southeast modern Lativa area)

BRITAIN AREA (almost complete)
Welsh
* Gwyned (northern Wales) - Deganwy, or Din Conwy (was the fortress of Maelgun Gwynedd, but it was destructed in 850)
* Powys (middle Wales) - ?
* Gwent (southern Wales) - Caerleon-upon-Uisc
* Dyfed (western Wales) - Carmarthen (Caer-Myrddin) or Pembroke?
* West Wealas / Cerniu / Cornwall (welsh-held, southwest England) - Isca (modern Exeter) or Tintagel? (a real place but was it an important stronghold in the IXth century?)
Scottish
* Dal riada (western Scotland) - ?
* Orkney/Moray (northern Scotland and Orkney islands) (rebels) - ?
* Athfotla (middle Scotland) - Inverness (at the delta of river)
* Cyil (soutwest Scotland) - Dunbarton?
* Fib (southern Scotland) - Aberdeen?
Rebels and saxons
* Strathclyde (northwest England) - Whithorn
* Northumbria (north middle England) - York
* Lindsey - Stamford (danish-owned)
* Mierce/Mercia (middle England) - Chester (at west coast) or Stattford (middle) or Warwick (further south than Stattford)
* West seaxe - ? maybe Exeter
* Suth seaxe (southeast of West seaxe) - Chichester (at south coast)
* East seaxe / Essex / Kent - London
* East engle (east England south of Beornice) - Norwich

FRANCE AREA (almost complete)
* Aquitania - Mediolanum
* Vasconia (Gascogne, south of Aquitaine) - Burdigula (Bordeaux)
* Britannia (Britanny) - Nantes or Rennes
* Provincia / Lower Burgundy (Provence - beginning just east of Rhodanus/Rhône) - Massilia (same as Marseilles) (or perhaps Nicia)
* Septimania or Tolosa (Toulouse, also part of Aquitainia [as rebels] starting provinces) - Tolosa
* Normandy (norman) - Rouen (at Seine) or Bayeux (just east of Cotentin peninsula)
* Neustria - Paris
* Flandria - ?
* Burgundia - ?
* Upper Burgundy / Switzerland - Geneva
* Friesia (rebels) - ?
* Austrasia (Aachen, west of Rhine) - Aquisgranum
* Lorraine?/Francia Media/Champagne? - Verdunum (Verdun)

ASIA MINOR AREA (almost complete)
* Constantinople - Constantinople (large city)
* Paphlagonia - Sinope
* Trebizond - Trebizond
* Opsikion - Nikaia / Nicaea
* Thrakesion - Pergamum
* Anatolikon - Iconium
* Cappadocia - Ankara / Ancyra / Angora
* Lesser Armenia - Tarsus
* Edessa - Edessa
* Armenia - Tiflis?
* Georgia - ?

MIDDLE EAST AREA (almost complete)
* Antiokeia - Antiokeia
* Tripolis - Tripolis
* Palestine - Jerusalem
* Syria - Damascus
* Arabia - Medina
* Baghdad (better province name perhaps needed) - Baghdad
* Mosul (better province name needed) - Mosul
* Basra (better province name needed) - Basra

MEDITERRANEAN ISLANDS (almost complete)
(for Sicily, see the Italy paragraph above)
* Baliares - ?
* Corsica - ?
* Sardinia - ?
* Cyprus - Nicosia
* Crete - Candia / Kandia
* Rhodes - ?

[Captain-Tiguris]

Oh yes, if we are joining wouldnt me and you be head of it, since we both managing a mod anyway?

Oh yeh, I aint a skinner or a unit editor yet.

[wilpuri]

FINLAND, BALTICUM AND RUSSIA AREA (very far from complete...)
* Karelia (west of Lake Ladoga but not blocking Baltic port for Novgorod province) - ?
* Finland (rest of Finland, pretty much) - ?, better name perhaps needed for province. Settlement needed.
* Livonia (Estonia and Latvia area) - ?, settlement name needed.
* Lithuania - ?, settlement name needed.
* Novgorod - Novgorod
* Kiev - Kiev
* Smolensk - ?
* Volga-Bulgaria - Bolgar

This might prove useful: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=612005&postcount=642

[Rodion Romanovich]

Oh yes, if we are joining wouldnt me and you be head of it, since we both managing a mod anyway?

Oh yeh, I aint a skinner or a unit editor yet.

We can both be head of the mod, yes. I'll edit that now.

Do you mind having the title "skinner/unit editor" next to your name even though you haven't fully learned unit editing and skinning yet? After all, isn't that what you're supposed to do later in the mod process anyway? I'm not a full-fledged campaign map creator either, but I learn as I go and have still put the title "campaign map editor" next to my name...

Anyway, here's the basic plan for a project like this:
- Planning
- Modding
- Testing/fixing
- Release

So I suggest we discuss the planning. I suggest the planning could follow this schedule: I post lists of 1. provinces + cities, 2. units, 3. buildings/tech trees. Then all team members can come with suggestions for improvements of those lists - and don't be afraid of giving me much criticism on those lists as the first versions will only be rough scetches. Then we keep sending comments/suggestions back and forth until we're all pleased with the lists. Then, when the planning phase is over, we can start the actual modding ~:) . So, in conclusion, I'll make lists 2 and 3 now and post them below. Province list has already been posted above this post (I'll edit it as updates are made).

[Rodion Romanovich]

This might prove useful: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=612005&postcount=642

Thanks a lot, I've updated the province list and added a note giving you credit for the help.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Tech trees:
(Boni for buildings of higher level are total boni, not added bonus for upgrading)
(When a building upgrade enables recruiting of certain units, I only mention the new units unlocked by the upgrade)
(Buildings in the same paragraph starting with "-" belong to the same series - buildings to the right are upgrades of buildings further to the left on that line)

ALL FACTIONS
===========
...can access these "zone of recruit"-based units (there are other ZOR units too but they're locked to specific factions, see their respective tech trees):
- Steppe cavalry (steppes, require stables)
- Heavy steppe cavalry (steppes, require cavalry stables)

MERCENARIES
===========
- Genoese crossbowmen mercenaries (Northern Italy and French riviera area)
- Varangian mercenaries (Kiev, Smolensk etc.)
- Abyssinian guard - unarmored, fierce axemen (Nubia, perhaps also the Egyptian provinces)
- Mercenary longbowmen - (in the Welsh provinces)
- Mercenary ballista crew - (in France, HRE, Lotharingia, rest of Italy and Greece)
- Mercenary catapult crew - (in France, HRE, Lotharingia, rest of Italy and Greece)
- Mercenary trebuchet crew - (in France, HRE, Lotharingia, rest of Italy and Greece)
- Turkish horse archers - (ZOR eastern Asia Minor area)

France, HRE and Lotharingia
=====================
- Chapel (+10 happiness, requires town), Church (+20 happiness, +1 morale, +5% law, requires large town), Cathedral (+40 happiness, +2 morale, +10% law, enable training of catholic fanatics - clubmen?, requires city)
- Abbey/Monastery (requires Church, +10% happiness - perhaps replace this building with specific monastery types for different religious orders granting different boni and which can only be built in a certain province/in certain provinces)
- Forest clearings (+5 farming, available from start in most provinces - high bonus to indicate how an important improvement this step means compared to no farming buildings), Farms (+8 farming), Crop rotation (+11 farming), Farming technology (+14 farming), Feudal farming (+17 farming).
- Proper sewage (+10% health bonus), Herbal medicine (+15% health bonus), Water pipes (+20% health bonus).
- Paths, Mud roads, Paved roads
- Trader (+20% trade), Market (+40% trade), Merchant (+60% trade), Master merchant (+80 trade, +10% happiness)
- Port, Shipyard, Dockyard (all these enable training of better and better ships)
- Blacksmith (+1 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Master blacksmith (+2 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Armorer (+1 to all armor, will NOT require blacksmith in order to be constructed), Master armorer (+2 to all armor)
- Salt mine (+1 mining), Large salt mine (+2 mining), Copper mine (+2 mining), Large copper mine (+4 mining), Silver mine (+3 mining), Large silver mine (+6 mining), Gold mine (+4 mining), Large gold mine (+8 mining). All mines require their respective resources in the province in order to be possible to build.
- Academy, University
- Wooden pallisade, Wooden wall, Large wooden wall (possible to move on top of it), Stone wall (possible to move on top of it), Large stone wall (possible to move on top of it)

- Muster field (javelinmen, town watch, peasants), Town militia (urban militia, +5% law), Police force (urban guard, +10% law).
- Bowmaker (militia bowmen, bowmen), Bowmaker's workshop (militia archers, archers), Bowmaker's guild (militia archer +1 xp, archers +1 xp, genoese crossbowmen [lotharinigia only]), Master bowmaker (crossbowmen, pavise crossbowmen).
- Practise target (requires bowmaker, +1 missile weapon xp), Archery range (+2 missile weapon xp).
- Spearmaker (spear militia), Spearmaker's workshop (spearmen), Spearmaker's guild (armored spearmen), Master spearmaker (feudal foot sergeants, halberdiers).
- Horse farmer (militia swordscavalry, militia spearcavalry), Stables (scout cavalry, spearcavalry), Cavalry stables (frankish sergeants, frankish knights), Elite cavalry stables (feudal sergeants, feudal knights, royal knights [expensive, elite, small unit size])
- Cavalry training field (+1 to cavalry xp, requires Stables), Cavalry training grounds (+2 to cavalry xp, requires Cavalry stables), Cavalry academy (+3 to cavalry xp, requires Elite cavalry stables).
- Swordsmaker (militia swordsmen), Swordsmaker's workshop (militia axemen, early foot knights), Swordsmaker's guild (men-at-arms, foot knights), Master swordsmaker (feudal men-at-arms, feudal foot knights)
- Barracks (requires Swordsmaker's workshop, +1 swordsmen xp), Army barracks (requires Swordmaker's guild, +2 swordsmen xp), Military academy (requires Master swordsmaker, +3 swordsmen xp).
- Siege engineer (requires town, ballista), Siege engineer's workshop (requires large town, catapult), Siege engineer's guild (requires city, trebuchet)

Norway, Denmark, Sweden
====================
- Shrine to Odin/Thor/Freya (+10 happiness, requires town, odin:+1 xp, thor: +1 weapons, freya: +1 population growth), Sacred groove of Odin/Thor/Freya (+20 happiness, requires large town, odin:+2 xp, enable training of viking berserkers, thor: +1 weapons +1 armor, freya +2 population growth +5% law), Sanctuary of Odin/Thor/Freya (+30 happiness, requires city, odin +3 xp +5% law, thor: +2 weapons +1 armor, freya: +3 population growth, +10% law).
- Tavern (+5% happiness, allows thing to be held), Mead hall (+10% happiness).
- Forest clearings (+5 farming, available from start in most provinces - high bonus to indicate how an important improvement this step means compared to no farming buildings), Farms (+8 farming), Crop rotation (+11 farming), Farming technology (+14 farming).
- Proper sewage (+10% health bonus).
- Paths, Mud roads
- Trader (+20% trade), Market (+40% trade), Merchant (+60% trade)
- Port (+20 trade), Shipyard (+40 trade), Dockyard (+60 trade), (all of these enable training of better and better ships)
- Blacksmith (+1 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Master blacksmith (+2 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Armorer (+1 to all armor, will NOT require blacksmith in order to be constructed), Master armorer (+2 to all armor)
- Salt mine (+1 mining), Large salt mine (+2 mining), Copper mine (+2 mining), Large copper mine (+4 mining), Silver mine (+3 mining), Large silver mine (+6 mining), Gold mine (+4 mining), Large gold mine (+8 mining). All mines require their respective resources in the province in order to be possible to build.
- Wooden pallisade, Wooden wall, Large wooden wall (possible to move on top of it), Stone wall (possible to move on top of it)

- Muster field (javelinmen, peasants), Town militia (hirdmenn, +5% law)
- Bowmaker (militia bowmen, bowmen), Bowmaker's workshop (militia archers, viking archers), Bowmaker's guild (militia archers +1 xp, viking archers +1 xp, birkebeiner archers [zone of recruit Norway and western part of Sweden]), Master bowmaker (crossbowmen).
- Practise target (requires bowmaker, +1 missile weapon xp), Archery range (+2 missile weapon xp).
- Spearmaker (spear militia), Spearmaker's workshop (viking spearmen), Spearmaker's guild (geirrmen).
- Horse farmer (militia swordscavalry, militia spearcavalry), Stables (raider cavalry), Cavalry stables (viking cavalry), Elite cavalry stables (danish knights [danes only])
- Cavalry training field (+1 to cavalry xp, requires Stables), Cavalry training grounds (+2 to cavalry xp, requires Cavalry stables).
- Swordsmaker (landsmenn, jarl's hirdmenn), Swordsmaker's workshop (karls [sword], viking huskarl swordsmen [sword]), Swordsmaker's guild (viking huskarl axemen, birkebeiners [bow and sword]), Master swordsmaker (joms vikings [zone of recruit Sweden, Norway, Denmark, northern Poland])
- Barracks (requires Swordsmaker's workshop, +1 swordsmen xp), Army barracks (requires Swordmaker's guild, +2 swordsmen xp).
- Siege engineer (requires town, ballista), Siege engineer's workshop (requires large town, catapult), Siege engineer's guild (requires city, trebuchet)

Rus
===
- Chapel (+10 happiness, requires town), Church (+20 happiness, +1 morale, +5% law, requires large town), Cathedral (+40 happiness, +2 morale, +10% law, requires city)
- MORE HAPPINESS BUILDINGS NEEDED
- Forest clearings (+5 farming, available from start in most provinces - high bonus to indicate how an important improvement this step means compared to no farming buildings), Farms (+8 farming), Crop rotation (+11 farming), Farming technology (+14 farming)
- Proper sewage (+10% health bonus), Herbal medicine (+15% health bonus).
- Paths, Mud roads
- Trader (+20% trade), Market (+40% trade), Merchant (+60% trade), Master merchant (+80 trade, +10% happiness)
- Port, Shipyard, Dockyard (all these enable training of better and better ships)
- Blacksmith (+1 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Master blacksmith (+2 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Armorer (+1 to all armor, will NOT require blacksmith in order to be constructed), Master armorer (+2 to all armor)
- Salt mine (+1 mining), Large salt mine (+2 mining), Copper mine (+2 mining), Large copper mine (+4 mining), Silver mine (+3 mining), Large silver mine (+6 mining), Gold mine (+4 mining), Large gold mine (+8 mining). All mines require their respective resources in the province in order to be possible to build.
- Academy
- Wooden pallisade, Wooden wall, Large wooden wall (possible to move on top of it), Stone wall (possible to move on top of it)

- Muster field (javelinmen, town watch, peasants), Town militia (slav javelinmen, urban militia, +5% law), Police force (urban guard, +10% law).
- Bowmaker (militia bowmen, bowmen), Bowmaker's workshop (militia archers, archers), Bowmaker's guild (militia archer +1 xp, archers +1 xp), Master bowmaker (crossbowmen, pavise crossbowmen).
- Practise target (requires bowmaker, +1 missile weapon xp), Archery range (+2 missile weapon xp).
- Spearmaker (spear militia), Spearmaker's workshop (rus spearmen), Spearmaker's guild (armored spearmen), Master spearmaker (rus foot sergeants [slightly weaker than feudal foot sergeants]).
- Horse farmer (militia swordscavalry, militia spearcavalry), Stables (horse archers, spearcavalry), Cavalry stables (druzhina cavalry), Elite cavalry stables (boyars)
(also note that Rus have easy access to steppe cavalry with zone of recruit in their area)
- Cavalry training field (+1 to cavalry xp, requires Stables), Cavalry training grounds (+2 to cavalry xp, requires Cavalry stables), Cavalry academy (+3 to cavalry xp, requires Elite cavalry stables).
- Swordsmaker (militia swordsmen), Swordsmaker's workshop (militia axemen, rus swordsmen), Swordsmaker's guild (rus axemen), Master swordsmaker (rus heavy axemen)
- Barracks (requires Swordsmaker's workshop, +1 swordsmen xp), Army barracks (requires Swordmaker's guild, +2 swordsmen xp), Military academy (requires Master swordsmaker, +3 swordsmen xp).
- Siege engineer (requires town, ballista), Siege engineer's workshop (requires large town, catapult), Siege engineer's guild (requires city, trebuchet)

Byzantines
==========
Their recruiting abilities are limited so they'll need to hunt for mercenaries, especially the varangian mercenaries around Kiev. Their cavalrymen are however of high quality but they're required to hold their lands if they are to be able to recruit them.
- Chapel (+10 happiness, requires town), Church (+20 happiness, +1 morale, +5% law, requires large town), Cathedral (+40 happiness, +2 morale, +10% law, requires city)
- MORE HAPPINESS BUILDINGS NEEDED
- Forest clearings (+5 farming, available from start in most provinces - high bonus to indicate how an important improvement this step means compared to no farming buildings), Farms (+8 farming), Crop rotation (+11 farming), Farming technology (+14 farming), Feudal farming (+17 farming).
- Proper sewage (+10% health bonus), Herbal medicine (+15% health bonus), Water pipes (+20% health bonus).
- Paths, Mud roads, Paved roads
- Trader (+20% trade), Market (+40% trade), Merchant (+60% trade), Master merchant (+80 trade, +10% happiness)
- Port, Shipyard, Dockyard (all these enable training of better and better ships)
- Blacksmith (+1 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Master blacksmith (+2 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Armorer (+1 to all armor, will NOT require blacksmith in order to be constructed), Master armorer (+2 to all armor)
- Salt mine (+1 mining), Large salt mine (+2 mining), Copper mine (+2 mining), Large copper mine (+4 mining), Silver mine (+3 mining), Large silver mine (+6 mining), Gold mine (+4 mining), Large gold mine (+8 mining). All mines require their respective resources in the province in order to be possible to build.
- Academy, University
- Wooden pallisade, Wooden wall, Large wooden wall (possible to move on top of it), Stone wall (possible to move on top of it), Large stone wall (possible to move on top of it)

- Muster field (javelinmen, town watch, peasants), Town militia (psiloi javelinmen, urban militia, +5% law), Police force (urban guard, +10% law).
- Bowmaker (militia bowmen, bowmen), Bowmaker's workshop (militia archers, trebizond archers [ZOR trebizond only], slingers), Bowmaker's guild (militia archers +1 xp, skutatoi archers +1 xp), Master bowmaker (crossbowmen, pavise crossbowmen).
- Practise target (requires bowmaker, +1 missile weapon xp), Archery range (+2 missile weapon xp).
- Spearmaker (spear militia), Spearmaker's workshop (skutatoi spearmen), Spearmaker's guild (skutatoi heavy spearmen), Master spearmaker (-).
- Horse farmer (militia swordscavalry, militia spearcavalry), Stables (kataphraktoi [expensive, lance and sword, shield, not super heavy - the klibanophoroi are much stronger, zone of recruit east Asia minor area], trapezitoi light cavalry [zone of recruit trebizond]), Cavalry stables (expensive, kavallarioi archers [heavy horse archers, sword and bow, no shield, zone of recruit east Asia minor area], klibanophoroi [expensive, small unit, lance and mace, maybe shield, extra heavy cataphracts, zone of recruit east Asia minor area]), Elite cavalry stables (immortals [expensive, small unit, heavy cavalry, zone of recruit Constantinople and Macedon area], Proniai cavalry [medium cavalry, cheap]])
- Cavalry training field (+1 to cavalry xp, requires Stables), Cavalry training grounds (+2 to cavalry xp, requires Cavalry stables), Cavalry academy (+3 to cavalry xp, requires Elite cavalry stables).
- Swordsmaker (militia swordsmen), Swordsmaker's workshop (slavic warriors), Swordsmaker's guild (militia swordsmen +1 xp), Master swordsmaker (proniai swordsmen)
- Barracks (requires Swordsmaker's workshop, +1 swordsmen xp), Army barracks (requires Swordmaker's guild, +2 swordsmen xp), Military academy (requires Master swordsmaker, +3 swordsmen xp).
- Siege engineer (requires town, ballista), Siege engineer's workshop (requires large town, catapult), Siege engineer's guild (requires city, trebuchet)

Bulgars
=======
- Chapel (+10 happiness, requires town), Church (+20 happiness, +1 morale, +5% law, requires large town), Cathedral (+40 happiness, +2 morale, +10% law, requires city)
- MORE HAPPINESS BUILDINGS NEEDED
- Forest clearings (+5 farming, available from start in most provinces - high bonus to indicate how an important improvement this step means compared to no farming buildings), Farms (+8 farming), Crop rotation (+11 farming), Farming technology (+14 farming)
- Proper sewage (+10% health bonus), Herbal medicine (+15% health bonus).
- Paths, Mud roads
- Trader (+20% trade), Market (+40% trade), Merchant (+60% trade)
- Port, Shipyard, Dockyard (all these enable training of better and better ships)
- Blacksmith (+1 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Master blacksmith (+2 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Armorer (+1 to all armor, will NOT require blacksmith in order to be constructed), Master armorer (+2 to all armor)
- Salt mine (+1 mining), Large salt mine (+2 mining), Copper mine (+2 mining), Large copper mine (+4 mining), Silver mine (+3 mining), Large silver mine (+6 mining), Gold mine (+4 mining), Large gold mine (+8 mining). All mines require their respective resources in the province in order to be possible to build.
- Academy
- Wooden pallisade, Wooden wall, Large wooden wall (possible to move on top of it), Stone wall (possible to move on top of it)

- Muster field (javelinmen, town watch, peasants), Town militia (slav javelinmen, urban militia, +5% law), Police force (urban guard, +10% law).
- Bowmaker (militia bowmen, bowmen), Bowmaker's workshop (militia archers, bulgarian brigands [bow and sword, ZOR bulgaria], archers), Bowmaker's guild (bulgarian brigands +1 xp, archers +1 xp), Master bowmaker (crossbowmen, pavise crossbowmen).
- Practise target (requires bowmaker, +1 missile weapon xp), Archery range (+2 missile weapon xp).
- Spearmaker (spear militia), Spearmaker's workshop (spearmen), Spearmaker's guild (armored spearmen), Master spearmaker (-).
- Horse farmer (militia swordscavalry, militia spearcavalry), Stables (horse archers, spearcavalry), Cavalry stables (pecheneg horse archers [ZOR north of Bulgaria up to Kiev area], vlach cavalry [medium cavalry, ZOR wallachia]), Elite cavalry stables (boyars [sword and bow], cuman horse archers [sword and bow, weaker meleé but faster than boyars])
- Cavalry training field (+1 to cavalry xp, requires Stables), Cavalry training grounds (+2 to cavalry xp, requires Cavalry stables), Cavalry academy (+3 to cavalry xp, requires Elite cavalry stables).
- Swordsmaker (militia swordsmen), Swordsmaker's workshop (militia axemen, slavic warriors), Swordsmaker's guild (elite slavic warriors), Master swordsmaker (-)
- Barracks (requires Swordsmaker's workshop, +1 swordsmen xp), Army barracks (requires Swordmaker's guild, +2 swordsmen xp)
- Siege engineer (requires town, ballista), Siege engineer's workshop (requires large town, catapult), Siege engineer's guild (requires city, trebuchet)

Scots
=====
- Chapel (+10 happiness, requires town), Church (+20 happiness, +1 morale, +5% law, requires large town), Cathedral (+40 happiness, +2 morale, +10% law, enable training of catholic fanatics - clubmen?, requires city)
- Abbey/Monastery (requires Church, +10% happiness - perhaps replace this building with specific monastery types for different religious orders granting different boni and which can only be built in a certain province/in certain provinces)
- Forest clearings (+5 farming, available from start in most provinces - high bonus to indicate how an important improvement this step means compared to no farming buildings), Farms (+8 farming), Crop rotation (+11 farming), Farming technology (+14 farming).
- Proper sewage (+10% health bonus), Herbal medicine (+15% health bonus).
- Paths, Mud roads
- Trader (+20% trade), Market (+40% trade), Merchant (+60% trade)
- Port, Shipyard, Dockyard (all these enable training of better and better ships)
- Blacksmith (+1 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Master blacksmith (+2 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Armorer (+1 to all armor, will NOT require blacksmith in order to be constructed), Master armorer (+2 to all armor)
- Salt mine (+1 mining), Large salt mine (+2 mining), Copper mine (+2 mining), Large copper mine (+4 mining), Silver mine (+3 mining), Large silver mine (+6 mining), Gold mine (+4 mining), Large gold mine (+8 mining). All mines require their respective resources in the province in order to be possible to build.
- Wooden pallisade, Wooden wall, Large wooden wall (possible to move on top of it), Stone wall (possible to move on top of it)

- Muster field (javelinmen, town watch, peasants), Town militia (urban militia, +5% law), Police force (urban guard, +10% law).
- Bowmaker (militia bowmen, bowmen), Bowmaker's workshop (militia archers, archers), Bowmaker's guild (militia archers +1 xp, archers +1 xp), Master bowmaker (crossbowmen, pavise crossbowmen).
- Practise target (requires bowmaker, +1 missile weapon xp), Archery range (+2 missile weapon xp).
- Spearmaker (spear militia), Spearmaker's workshop (spearmen), Spearmaker's guild (armored spearmen), Master spearmaker (feudal foot sergeants).
- Horse farmer (militia swordscavalry, militia spearcavalry), Stables (scout cavalry, spearcavalry), Cavalry stables (scottish cavalry), Elite cavalry stables (feudal sergeants, feudal knights, royal knights [expensive, elite, small unit size])
- Cavalry training field (+1 to cavalry xp, requires Stables), Cavalry training grounds (+2 to cavalry xp, requires Cavalry stables).
- Swordsmaker (militia clansmen), Swordsmaker's workshop (highland clansmen), Swordsmaker's guild (elite clansmen, foot knights), Master swordsmaker (feudal foot knights)
- Barracks (requires Swordsmaker's workshop, +1 swordsmen xp), Army barracks (requires Swordmaker's guild, +2 swordsmen xp)
- Siege engineer (requires town, ballista), Siege engineer's workshop (requires large town, catapult), Siege engineer's guild (requires city, trebuchet)

Welsh
=====
- Chapel (+10 happiness, requires town), Church (+20 happiness, +1 morale, +5% law, requires large town), Cathedral (+40 happiness, +2 morale, +10% law, enable training of catholic fanatics - clubmen?, requires city)
- Abbey/Monastery (requires Church, +10% happiness - perhaps replace this building with specific monastery types for different religious orders granting different boni and which can only be built in a certain province/in certain provinces)
- Forest clearings (+5 farming, available from start in most provinces - high bonus to indicate how an important improvement this step means compared to no farming buildings), Farms (+8 farming), Crop rotation (+11 farming), Farming technology (+14 farming).
- Proper sewage (+10% health bonus), Herbal medicine (+15% health bonus).
- Paths, Mud roads
- Trader (+20% trade), Market (+40% trade), Merchant (+60% trade)
- Port, Shipyard, Dockyard (all these enable training of better and better ships)
- Blacksmith (+1 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Master blacksmith (+2 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Armorer (+1 to all armor, will NOT require blacksmith in order to be constructed), Master armorer (+2 to all armor)
- Salt mine (+1 mining), Large salt mine (+2 mining), Copper mine (+2 mining), Large copper mine (+4 mining), Silver mine (+3 mining), Large silver mine (+6 mining), Gold mine (+4 mining), Large gold mine (+8 mining). All mines require their respective resources in the province in order to be possible to build.
- Wooden pallisade, Wooden wall, Large wooden wall (possible to move on top of it), Stone wall (possible to move on top of it)

- Muster field (javelinmen, town watch, peasants), Town militia (urban militia, +5% law), Police force (urban guard, +10% law).
- Bowmaker (militia bowmen, bowmen), Bowmaker's workshop (militia archers, archers, militia longbowmen [long range, armor-piercing, fast]), Bowmaker's guild (longbowmen [very long range, armor-piercing, fast], archers +1 xp), Master bowmaker (crossbowmen, pavise crossbowmen).
- Practise target (requires bowmaker, +1 missile weapon xp), Archery range (+2 missile weapon xp).
- Spearmaker (spear militia), Spearmaker's workshop (spearmen), Spearmaker's guild (armored spearmen), Master spearmaker (feudal foot sergeants).
- Horse farmer (militia swordscavalry, militia spearcavalry), Stables (scout cavalry, spearcavalry), Cavalry stables (dumnonian cavalry), Elite cavalry stables (feudal sergeants, feudal knights, royal knights [expensive, elite, small unit size])
- Cavalry training field (+1 to cavalry xp, requires Stables), Cavalry training grounds (+2 to cavalry xp, requires Cavalry stables).
- Swordsmaker (celtic militia swordsmen), Swordsmaker's workshop (celtic swordsmen, celtic militia axemen), Swordsmaker's guild (celtic elite swordsmen, celtic axemen), Master swordsmaker (-)
- Barracks (requires Swordsmaker's workshop, +1 swordsmen xp), Army barracks (requires Swordmaker's guild, +2 swordsmen xp).
- Siege engineer (requires town, ballista), Siege engineer's workshop (requires large town, catapult), Siege engineer's guild (requires city, trebuchet)

Irish
=====
- Chapel (+10 happiness, requires town), Church (+20 happiness, +1 morale, +5% law, requires large town), Cathedral (+40 happiness, +2 morale, +10% law, enable training of catholic fanatics - clubmen?, requires city)
- Abbey/Monastery (requires Church, +10% happiness - perhaps replace this building with specific monastery types for different religious orders granting different boni and which can only be built in a certain province/in certain provinces)
- Forest clearings (+5 farming, available from start in most provinces - high bonus to indicate how an important improvement this step means compared to no farming buildings), Farms (+8 farming), Crop rotation (+11 farming), Farming technology (+14 farming).
- Proper sewage (+10% health bonus), Herbal medicine (+15% health bonus).
- Paths, Mud roads
- Trader (+20% trade), Market (+40% trade), Merchant (+60% trade)
- Port, Shipyard, Dockyard (all these enable training of better and better ships)
- Blacksmith (+1 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Master blacksmith (+2 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Armorer (+1 to all armor, will NOT require blacksmith in order to be constructed), Master armorer (+2 to all armor)
- Salt mine (+1 mining), Large salt mine (+2 mining), Copper mine (+2 mining), Large copper mine (+4 mining), Silver mine (+3 mining), Large silver mine (+6 mining), Gold mine (+4 mining), Large gold mine (+8 mining). All mines require their respective resources in the province in order to be possible to build.
- Wooden pallisade, Wooden wall, Large wooden wall (possible to move on top of it), Stone wall (possible to move on top of it)

- Muster field (javelinmen, town watch, peasants), Town militia (irish dartmen, urban militia, +5% law), Police force (urban guard, +10% law).
- Bowmaker (militia bowmen, bowmen), Bowmaker's workshop (militia archers, archers), Bowmaker's guild (militia archer +1 xp, archers +1 xp), Master bowmaker (crossbowmen, pavise crossbowmen).
- Practise target (requires bowmaker, +1 missile weapon xp), Archery range (+2 missile weapon xp).
- Spearmaker (spear militia), Spearmaker's workshop (spearmen), Spearmaker's guild (armored spearmen), Master spearmaker (feudal foot sergeants).
- Horse farmer (militia swordscavalry, militia spearcavalry), Stables (scout cavalry, spearcavalry), Cavalry stables (irish cavalry), Elite cavalry stables (feudal sergeants, feudal knights, royal knights [expensive, elite, small unit size])
- Cavalry training field (+1 to cavalry xp, requires Stables), Cavalry training grounds (+2 to cavalry xp, requires Cavalry stables).
- Swordsmaker (celtic militia swordsmen), Swordsmaker's workshop (celtic swordsmen, celtic militia axemen), Swordsmaker's guild (bonnachts), Master swordsmaker (gallowglasses [elite, expensive])
- Barracks (requires Swordsmaker's workshop, +1 swordsmen xp), Army barracks (requires Swordmaker's guild, +2 swordsmen xp).
- Siege engineer (requires town, ballista), Siege engineer's workshop (requires large town, catapult), Siege engineer's guild (requires city, trebuchet)

Normandy
========
- Chapel (+10 happiness, requires town), Church (+20 happiness, +1 morale, +5% law, requires large town), Cathedral (+40 happiness, +2 morale, +10% law, enable training of catholic fanatics - clubmen?, requires city)
- Abbey/Monastery (requires Church, +10% happiness - perhaps replace this building with specific monastery types for different religious orders granting different boni and which can only be built in a certain province/in certain provinces)
- Forest clearings (+5 farming, available from start in most provinces - high bonus to indicate how an important improvement this step means compared to no farming buildings), Farms (+8 farming), Crop rotation (+11 farming), Farming technology (+14 farming), Feudal farming (+17 farming).
- Proper sewage (+10% health bonus), Herbal medicine (+15% health bonus), Water pipes (+20% health bonus).
- Paths, Mud roads, Paved roads
- Trader (+20% trade), Market (+40% trade), Merchant (+60% trade), Master merchant (+80 trade, +10% happiness)
- Port, Shipyard, Dockyard (all these enable training of better and better ships)
- Blacksmith (+1 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Master blacksmith (+2 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Armorer (+1 to all armor, will NOT require blacksmith in order to be constructed), Master armorer (+2 to all armor)
- Salt mine (+1 mining), Large salt mine (+2 mining), Copper mine (+2 mining), Large copper mine (+4 mining), Silver mine (+3 mining), Large silver mine (+6 mining), Gold mine (+4 mining), Large gold mine (+8 mining). All mines require their respective resources in the province in order to be possible to build.
- Academy, University
- Wooden pallisade, Wooden wall, Large wooden wall (possible to move on top of it), Stone wall (possible to move on top of it), Large stone wall (possible to move on top of it)

- Muster field (javelinmen, town watch, peasants), Town militia (urban militia, +5% law), Police force (urban guard, +10% law).
- Bowmaker (militia bowmen, bowmen), Bowmaker's workshop (militia archers, norman archers), Bowmaker's guild (militia archer +1 xp, norman archers +1 xp), Master bowmaker (crossbowmen, pavise crossbowmen).
- Practise target (requires bowmaker, +1 missile weapon xp), Archery range (+2 missile weapon xp).
- Spearmaker (spear militia), Spearmaker's workshop (spearmen), Spearmaker's guild (armored spearmen), Master spearmaker (feudal foot sergeants, halberdiers).
- Horse farmer (militia swordscavalry, militia spearcavalry), Stables (scout cavalry, spearcavalry), Cavalry stables (norman sergeants, norman knights), Elite cavalry stables (feudal sergeants, feudal knights, royal knights [expensive, elite, small unit size])
- Cavalry training field (+1 to cavalry xp, requires Stables), Cavalry training grounds (+2 to cavalry xp, requires Cavalry stables), Cavalry academy (+3 to cavalry xp, requires Elite cavalry stables).
- Swordsmaker (militia swordsmen), Swordsmaker's workshop (militia axemen, early foot knights), Swordsmaker's guild (men-at-arms, foot knights), Master swordsmaker (feudal men-at-arms, feudal foot knights)
- Barracks (requires Swordsmaker's workshop, +1 swordsmen xp), Army barracks (requires Swordmaker's guild, +2 swordsmen xp), Military academy (requires Master swordsmaker, +3 swordsmen xp).
- Siege engineer (requires town, ballista), Siege engineer's workshop (requires large town, catapult), Siege engineer's guild (requires city, trebuchet)

Saxons
======
- Chapel (+10 happiness, requires town), Church (+20 happiness, +1 morale, +5% law, requires large town), Cathedral (+40 happiness, +2 morale, +10% law, enable training of catholic fanatics - clubmen?, requires city)
- Abbey/Monastery (requires Church, +10% happiness - perhaps replace this building with specific monastery types for different religious orders granting different boni and which can only be built in a certain province/in certain provinces)
- Forest clearings (+5 farming, available from start in most provinces - high bonus to indicate how an important improvement this step means compared to no farming buildings), Farms (+8 farming), Crop rotation (+11 farming), Farming technology (+14 farming).
- Proper sewage (+10% health bonus), Herbal medicine (+15% health bonus).
- Paths, Mud roads
- Trader (+20% trade), Market (+40% trade), Merchant (+60% trade)
- Port, Shipyard, Dockyard (all these enable training of better and better ships)
- Blacksmith (+1 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Master blacksmith (+2 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Armorer (+1 to all armor, will NOT require blacksmith in order to be constructed), Master armorer (+2 to all armor)
- Salt mine (+1 mining), Large salt mine (+2 mining), Copper mine (+2 mining), Large copper mine (+4 mining), Silver mine (+3 mining), Large silver mine (+6 mining), Gold mine (+4 mining), Large gold mine (+8 mining). All mines require their respective resources in the province in order to be possible to build.
- Academy
- Wooden pallisade, Wooden wall, Large wooden wall (possible to move on top of it), Stone wall (possible to move on top of it), Large stone wall (possible to move on top of it)

- Muster field (javelinmen, town watch, peasants), Town militia (urban militia, +5% law), Police force (urban guard, +10% law).
- Bowmaker (militia bowmen, bowmen), Bowmaker's workshop (militia archers, archers), Bowmaker's guild (militia archer +1 xp, archers +1 xp), Master bowmaker (crossbowmen, pavise crossbowmen).
- Practise target (requires bowmaker, +1 missile weapon xp), Archery range (+2 missile weapon xp).
- Spearmaker (spear militia), Spearmaker's workshop (fyrdmen), Spearmaker's guild (armored fyrdmen), Master spearmaker (feudal foot sergeants, halberdiers).
- Horse farmer (militia swordscavalry, militia spearcavalry), Stables (scout cavalry, spearcavalry), Cavalry stables (saxon sergeants, saxon knights), Elite cavalry stables (feudal sergeants, feudal knights, royal knights [expensive, elite, small unit size])
- Cavalry training field (+1 to cavalry xp, requires Stables), Cavalry training grounds (+2 to cavalry xp, requires Cavalry stables).
- Swordsmaker (militia swordsmen), Swordsmaker's workshop (saxon huscarl swordsmen [sword]), Swordsmaker's guild (saxon huscarl axemen [axe]), Master swordsmaker (saxon huscarl swordsmen +1 xp, saxon huscarl axemen +1 xp, feudal foot knights)
- Barracks (requires Swordsmaker's workshop, +1 swordsmen xp), Army barracks (requires Swordmaker's guild, +2 swordsmen xp).
- Siege engineer (requires town, ballista), Siege engineer's workshop (requires large town, catapult), Siege engineer's guild (requires city, trebuchet)

Papal states
============
- Chapel (+10 happiness, requires town), Church (+20 happiness, +1 morale, +5% law, requires large town), Cathedral (+40 happiness, +2 morale, +10% law, enable training of catholic fanatics - clubmen?, requires city)
- Abbey/Monastery (requires Church, +10% happiness - perhaps replace this building with specific monastery types for different religious orders granting different boni and which can only be built in a certain province/in certain provinces)
- Forest clearings (+5 farming, available from start in most provinces - high bonus to indicate how an important improvement this step means compared to no farming buildings), Farms (+8 farming), Crop rotation (+11 farming), Farming technology (+14 farming), Feudal farming (+17 farming).
- Proper sewage (+10% health bonus), Herbal medicine (+15% health bonus), Water pipes (+20% health bonus).
- Paths, Mud roads, Paved roads
- Trader (+20% trade), Market (+40% trade), Merchant (+60% trade), Master merchant (+80 trade, +10% happiness)
- Port, Shipyard, Dockyard (all these enable training of better and better ships)
- Blacksmith (+1 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Master blacksmith (+2 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Armorer (+1 to all armor, will NOT require blacksmith in order to be constructed), Master armorer (+2 to all armor)
- Salt mine (+1 mining), Large salt mine (+2 mining), Copper mine (+2 mining), Large copper mine (+4 mining), Silver mine (+3 mining), Large silver mine (+6 mining), Gold mine (+4 mining), Large gold mine (+8 mining). All mines require their respective resources in the province in order to be possible to build.
- Academy, University
- Wooden pallisade, Wooden wall, Large wooden wall (possible to move on top of it), Stone wall (possible to move on top of it), Large stone wall (possible to move on top of it)

- Muster field (javelinmen, town watch, peasants), Town militia (urban militia, +5% law), Police force (urban guard, +10% law).
- Bowmaker (militia bowmen, bowmen), Bowmaker's workshop (militia archers, archers), Bowmaker's guild (militia archer +1 xp, archers +1 xp), Master bowmaker (crossbowmen, pavise crossbowmen).
- Practise target (requires bowmaker, +1 missile weapon xp), Archery range (+2 missile weapon xp).
- Spearmaker (spear militia), Spearmaker's workshop (spearmen), Spearmaker's guild (armored spearmen), Master spearmaker (feudal foot sergeants, halberdiers).
- Horse farmer (militia swordscavalry, militia spearcavalry), Stables (scout cavalry, spearcavalry), Cavalry stables (papal sergeants, papal knights), Elite cavalry stables (feudal sergeants, feudal knights, royal knights [expensive, elite, small unit size])
- Cavalry training field (+1 to cavalry xp, requires Stables), Cavalry training grounds (+2 to cavalry xp, requires Cavalry stables), Cavalry academy (+3 to cavalry xp, requires Elite cavalry stables).
- Swordsmaker (militia swordsmen), Swordsmaker's workshop (militia axemen, early foot knights), Swordsmaker's guild (men-at-arms, foot knights), Master swordsmaker (feudal men-at-arms, feudal foot knights)
- Barracks (requires Swordsmaker's workshop, +1 swordsmen xp), Army barracks (requires Swordmaker's guild, +2 swordsmen xp), Military academy (requires Master swordsmaker, +3 swordsmen xp).
- Siege engineer (requires town, ballista), Siege engineer's workshop (requires large town, catapult), Siege engineer's guild (requires city, trebuchet)

Khazar
======
The khazars will, like the Byzantines, hire the expensive but very professional varangian mercenaries near Kiev if they want any higher-quality swordsmen to support their formidable cavalry
- Small synagogue (+10 happiness, requires town), Synagogue (+20 happiness, +1 morale, +5% law, requires large town), Large synagogue (+40 happiness, +2 morale, +10% law, requires city)
- MORE HAPPINESS BUILDINGS NEEDED!
- Forest clearings (+5 farming, available from start in most provinces - high bonus to indicate how an important improvement this step means compared to no farming buildings), Farms (+8 farming), Crop rotation (+11 farming), Farming technology (+14 farming).
- Proper sewage (+10% health bonus), Herbal medicine (+15% health bonus).
- Paths, Mud roads
- Trader (+20% trade), Market (+40% trade), Merchant (+60% trade), Master merchant (+80 trade, +10% happiness)
- Port, Shipyard, Dockyard (all these enable training of better and better ships)
- Blacksmith (+1 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Master blacksmith (+2 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Armorer (+1 to all armor, will NOT require blacksmith in order to be constructed), Master armorer (+2 to all armor)
- Salt mine (+1 mining), Large salt mine (+2 mining), Copper mine (+2 mining), Large copper mine (+4 mining), Silver mine (+3 mining), Large silver mine (+6 mining), Gold mine (+4 mining), Large gold mine (+8 mining). All mines require their respective resources in the province in order to be possible to build.
- Academy, University
- Wooden pallisade, Wooden wall, Large wooden wall (possible to move on top of it), Stone wall (possible to move on top of it)

- Muster field (javelinmen, town watch, peasants), Town militia (urban militia, +5% law), Police force (urban guard, +10% law).
- Bowmaker (militia bowmen, bowmen), Bowmaker's workshop (militia archers, archers), Bowmaker's guild (militia archer +1 xp, archers +1 xp), Master bowmaker (crossbowmen, pavise crossbowmen).
- Practise target (requires bowmaker, +1 missile weapon xp), Archery range (+2 missile weapon xp).
- Spearmaker (spear militia), Spearmaker's workshop (arsiyah spearmen), Spearmaker's guild (arsiyah armored spearmen), Master spearmaker (-)
- Horse farmer (militia swordscavalry, militia spearcavalry), Stables (horse archers, alan light auxilia cavalry [high-quality light cavalry, ZOR eastern steppes provinces]), Cavalry stables (pecheneg horse archers [ZOR north of Bulgaria up to Kiev area], khazar royal cavalry), Elite cavalry stables (khwarazmian cavalry)
- Cavalry training field (+1 to cavalry xp, requires Stables), Cavalry training grounds (+2 to cavalry xp, requires Cavalry stables)
- Swordsmaker (militia swordsmen), Swordsmaker's workshop (militia axemen, arsiyah swordsmen), Swordsmaker's guild (-), Master swordsmaker (-)
- Barracks (requires Swordsmaker's workshop, +1 swordsmen xp), Army barracks (requires Swordmaker's guild, +2 swordsmen xp).
- Siege engineer (requires town, ballista), Siege engineer's workshop (requires large town, catapult), Siege engineer's guild (requires city, trebuchet)

Abbassids
=========
- Minarete (+10 happiness, requires town), Mosque (+20 happiness, +1 morale, +5% law, requires large town), Large mosque (+40 happiness, +2 morale, +10% law, requires city)
- MORE HAPPINESS BUILDINGS NEEDED!
- Forest clearings (+5 farming, available from start in most provinces - high bonus to indicate how an important improvement this step means compared to no farming buildings), Farms (+8 farming), Crop rotation (+11 farming), Farming technology (+14 farming)
- Proper sewage (+10% health bonus), Herbal medicine (+15% health bonus), Water pipes (+20% health bonus).
- Paths, Mud roads
- Trader (+20% trade), Market (+40% trade), Merchant (+60% trade), Master merchant (+80 trade, +10% happiness)
- Port, Shipyard, Dockyard (all these enable training of better and better ships)
- Blacksmith (+1 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Master blacksmith (+2 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Armorer (+1 to all armor, will NOT require blacksmith in order to be constructed), Master armorer (+2 to all armor)
- Salt mine (+1 mining), Large salt mine (+2 mining), Copper mine (+2 mining), Large copper mine (+4 mining), Silver mine (+3 mining), Large silver mine (+6 mining), Gold mine (+4 mining), Large gold mine (+8 mining). All mines require their respective resources in the province in order to be possible to build.
- Academy, University, Great university
- Wooden pallisade, Wooden wall, Large wooden wall (possible to move on top of it), Stone wall (possible to move on top of it)

- Muster field (javelinmen, town watch, peasants), Town militia (urban militia, +5% law), Police force (urban guard, +10% law).
- Bowmaker (militia bowmen, desert bowmen), Bowmaker's workshop (militia archers, desert archers), Bowmaker's guild (militia archer +1 xp, desert archers +1 xp), Master bowmaker (crossbowmen, pavise crossbowmen, napta throwers [maybe not included if it's impossible to fix napta, small unit, expensive]).
- Practise target (requires bowmaker, +1 missile weapon xp), Archery range (+2 missile weapon xp).
- Spearmaker (spear militia), Spearmaker's workshop (desert spearmen, nubian spearmen [good morale, relatively cheap, ZOR nubia and egyptian provinces]), Spearmaker's guild (desert spearmen +1 xp), Master spearmaker (saracen infantry).
- Horse farmer (militia swordscavalry, militia spearcavalry), Stables (saharan cavalry [militia light cavalry, ZOR north africa], mamluk light cavalry [professional light cavalry], beouin camel warriors [scare horses, poor morale, very much combat bonus in deserts, ZOR north africa, sinai, arabia and syria]), Cavalry stables (ghulam cavalry [medium cavalry - faster but weaker than most other heavy cavs, but desert combat bonus can nearly make up for that in deserts]), Elite cavalry stables (khwarazmian cavalry)
- Cavalry training field (+1 to cavalry xp, requires Stables), Cavalry training grounds (+2 to cavalry xp, requires Cavalry stables), Cavalry academy (+3 to cavalry xp, requires Elite cavalry stables).
- Swordsmaker (arab militia swordsmen [sable]), Swordsmaker's workshop (arab militia axemen, arab swordsmen), Swordsmaker's guild (arab axemen), Master swordsmaker (-)
- Barracks (requires Swordsmaker's workshop, +1 swordsmen xp), Army barracks (requires Swordmaker's guild, +2 swordsmen xp), Military academy (requires Master swordsmaker, +3 swordsmen xp).
- Siege engineer (requires town, ballista), Siege engineer's workshop (requires large town, catapult), Siege engineer's guild (requires city, trebuchet)

Al Andalus
==========
- Minarete (+10 happiness, requires town), Mosque (+20 happiness, +1 morale, +5% law, requires large town), Large mosque (+40 happiness, +2 morale, +10% law, enables training of al-murabitin fanatics [small unit], requires city)
- MORE HAPPINESS BUILDINGS NEEDED!
- Forest clearings (+5 farming, available from start in most provinces - high bonus to indicate how an important improvement this step means compared to no farming buildings), Farms (+8 farming), Crop rotation (+11 farming), Farming technology (+14 farming)
- Proper sewage (+10% health bonus), Herbal medicine (+15% health bonus), Water pipes (+20% health bonus).
- Paths, Mud roads
- Trader (+20% trade), Market (+40% trade), Merchant (+60% trade)
- Port, Shipyard, Dockyard (all these enable training of better and better ships)
- Blacksmith (+1 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Master blacksmith (+2 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Armorer (+1 to all armor, will NOT require blacksmith in order to be constructed), Master armorer (+2 to all armor)
- Salt mine (+1 mining), Large salt mine (+2 mining), Copper mine (+2 mining), Large copper mine (+4 mining), Silver mine (+3 mining), Large silver mine (+6 mining), Gold mine (+4 mining), Large gold mine (+8 mining). All mines require their respective resources in the province in order to be possible to build.
- Academy, University
- Wooden pallisade, Wooden wall, Large wooden wall (possible to move on top of it), Stone wall (possible to move on top of it), Large stone wall (possible to move on top of it)

- Muster field (javelinmen, town watch, peasants), Town militia (urban militia, +5% law), Police force (urban guard, +10% law).
- Bowmaker (militia bowmen, desert bowmen), Bowmaker's workshop (militia archers, desert archers), Bowmaker's guild (militia archer +1 xp, desert archers +1 xp), Master bowmaker (crossbowmen, pavise crossbowmen, napta throwers [maybe not included if it's impossible to fix napta, small unit, expensive]).
- Practise target (requires bowmaker, +1 missile weapon xp), Archery range (+2 missile weapon xp).
- Spearmaker (spear militia), Spearmaker's workshop (desert spearmen), Spearmaker's guild (desert spearmen +1 xp, al-murabitin spearmen), Master spearmaker (saracen infantry).
- Horse farmer (militia swordscavalry, militia spearcavalry), Stables (saharan cavalry [militia light cavalry, ZOR north africa], mamluk light cavalry [professional light cavalry], beouin camel warriors [scare horses, poor morale, very much combat bonus in deserts, ZOR north africa, sinai, arabia and syria], berber camel archers [ZOR southern Spain and west Africa]), Cavalry stables (ghulam cavalry [medium cavalry - faster but weaker than most other heavy cavs, but desert combat bonus can nearly make up for that in deserts]), Elite cavalry stables (-)
- Cavalry training field (+1 to cavalry xp, requires Stables), Cavalry training grounds (+2 to cavalry xp, requires Cavalry stables), Cavalry academy (+3 to cavalry xp, requires Elite cavalry stables).
- Swordsmaker (arab militia swordsmen [sable]), Swordsmaker's workshop (arab militia axemen, arab swordsmen), Swordsmaker's guild (arab axemen), Master swordsmaker (al-murabitin swordsmen)
- Barracks (requires Swordsmaker's workshop, +1 swordsmen xp), Army barracks (requires Swordmaker's guild, +2 swordsmen xp), Military academy (requires Master swordsmaker, +3 swordsmen xp).
- Siege engineer (requires town, ballista), Siege engineer's workshop (requires large town, catapult), Siege engineer's guild (requires city, trebuchet)

Kingdom of Asturia
==================
- Chapel (+10 happiness, requires town), Church (+20 happiness, +1 morale, +5% law, requires large town), Cathedral (+40 happiness, +2 morale, +10% law, enable training of catholic fanatics - clubmen?, requires city)
- Abbey/Monastery (requires Church, +10% happiness - perhaps replace this building with specific monastery types for different religious orders granting different boni and which can only be built in a certain province/in certain provinces)
- Forest clearings (+5 farming, available from start in most provinces - high bonus to indicate how an important improvement this step means compared to no farming buildings), Farms (+8 farming), Crop rotation (+11 farming), Farming technology (+14 farming), Feudal farming (+17 farming).
- Proper sewage (+10% health bonus), Herbal medicine (+15% health bonus), Water pipes (+20% health bonus).
- Paths, Mud roads, Paved roads
- Trader (+20% trade), Market (+40% trade), Merchant (+60% trade)
- Port, Shipyard, Dockyard (all these enable training of better and better ships)
- Blacksmith (+1 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Master blacksmith (+2 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Armorer (+1 to all armor, will NOT require blacksmith in order to be constructed), Master armorer (+2 to all armor)
- Salt mine (+1 mining), Large salt mine (+2 mining), Copper mine (+2 mining), Large copper mine (+4 mining), Silver mine (+3 mining), Large silver mine (+6 mining), Gold mine (+4 mining), Large gold mine (+8 mining). All mines require their respective resources in the province in order to be possible to build.
- Academy, University
- Wooden pallisade, Wooden wall, Large wooden wall (possible to move on top of it), Stone wall (possible to move on top of it), Large stone wall (possible to move on top of it)

- Muster field (javelinmen, town watch, peasants), Town militia (urban militia, +5% law), Police force (urban guard, +10% law).
- Bowmaker (militia bowmen, bowmen), Bowmaker's workshop (militia archers, archers), Bowmaker's guild (militia archer +1 xp, archers +1 xp), Master bowmaker (crossbowmen, pavise crossbowmen).
- Practise target (requires bowmaker, +1 missile weapon xp), Archery range (+2 missile weapon xp).
- Spearmaker (spear militia), Spearmaker's workshop (spearmen), Spearmaker's guild (armored spearmen), Master spearmaker (feudal foot sergeants).
- Horse farmer (militia swordscavalry, militia spearcavalry), Stables (scout cavalry, spearcavalry), Cavalry stables (asturian sergeants, asturian knights), Elite cavalry stables (feudal sergeants, feudal knights, royal knights [expensive, elite, small unit size])
- Cavalry training field (+1 to cavalry xp, requires Stables), Cavalry training grounds (+2 to cavalry xp, requires Cavalry stables), Cavalry academy (+3 to cavalry xp, requires Elite cavalry stables).
- Swordsmaker (militia swordsmen), Swordsmaker's workshop (militia axemen, early foot knights), Swordsmaker's guild (men-at-arms, foot knights), Master swordsmaker (feudal men-at-arms, feudal foot knights)
- Barracks (requires Swordsmaker's workshop, +1 swordsmen xp), Army barracks (requires Swordmaker's guild, +2 swordsmen xp), Military academy (requires Master swordsmaker, +3 swordsmen xp).
- Siege engineer (requires town, ballista), Siege engineer's workshop (requires large town, catapult), Siege engineer's guild (requires city, trebuchet)

Magyars
=======
I can't find any info on magyar gods, I need help with that.
- Shrine to X (+10 happiness, requires town, ?), Sacred groove of X (+20 happiness, requires large town, ?), Sanctuary of X (+30 happiness, requires city, ?).
- MORE HAPPINESS BUILDINGS NEEDED
- Forest clearings (+5 farming, available from start in most provinces - high bonus to indicate how an important improvement this step means compared to no farming buildings), Farms (+8 farming), Crop rotation (+11 farming), Farming technology (+14 farming).
- Proper sewage (+10% health bonus), Herbal medicine (+15% health bonus).
- Paths, Mud roads
- Trader (+20% trade), Market (+40% trade), Merchant (+60% trade)
- Port, Shipyard, Dockyard (all these enable training of better and better ships)
- Blacksmith (+1 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Master blacksmith (+2 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Armorer (+1 to all armor, will NOT require blacksmith in order to be constructed), Master armorer (+2 to all armor)
- Salt mine (+1 mining), Large salt mine (+2 mining), Copper mine (+2 mining), Large copper mine (+4 mining), Silver mine (+3 mining), Large silver mine (+6 mining), Gold mine (+4 mining), Large gold mine (+8 mining). All mines require their respective resources in the province in order to be possible to build.
- Wooden pallisade, Wooden wall, Large wooden wall (possible to move on top of it), Stone wall (possible to move on top of it)

- Muster field (javelinmen, town watch, peasants), Town militia (slav javelinmen, urban militia, +5% law), Police force (urban guard, +10% law).
- Bowmaker (militia bowmen, bowmen), Bowmaker's workshop (militia archers, bulgarian brigands [bow and sword, ZOR bulgaria], archers), Bowmaker's guild (militia archer +1 xp, bulgarian brigands +1 xp, archers +1 xp), Master bowmaker (crossbowmen, pavise crossbowmen).
- Practise target (requires bowmaker, +1 missile weapon xp), Archery range (+2 missile weapon xp).
- Spearmaker (spear militia), Spearmaker's workshop (spearmen), Spearmaker's guild (armored spearmen), Master spearmaker (-).
- Horse farmer (militia swordscavalry, militia spearcavalry), Stables (horse archers, szekely [medium cavalry, sword and bow]), Cavalry stables (pecheneg horse archers [ZOR north of Bulgaria up to Kiev area], szekely heavy cavalry [heavy cavalry, lance and sword]), Elite cavalry stables (feudal sergeants, feudal knights, royal knights [expensive, elite, small unit size])
- Cavalry training field (+1 to cavalry xp, requires Stables), Cavalry training grounds (+2 to cavalry xp, requires Cavalry stables), Cavalry academy (+3 to cavalry xp, requires Elite cavalry stables).
- Swordsmaker (militia swordsmen), Swordsmaker's workshop (militia axemen, maygar swordsmen [very light troops]), Swordsmaker's guild (-), Master swordsmaker (-)
- Barracks (requires Swordsmaker's workshop, +1 swordsmen xp), Army barracks (requires Swordmaker's guild, +2 swordsmen xp)
- Siege engineer (requires town, ballista), Siege engineer's workshop (requires large town, catapult), Siege engineer's guild (requires city, trebuchet)

[sbmv]

ok i like this idea of the mod if it haven't died yet. so i think you should make biger Lithuania :) since i'm the first Lithuanian here . keep up the good work (bad english i know ...)

[skeletor]

Wow LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix, thats amasing.... :book:

For the Norse factions, the unit "viking thrall swordsmen" is way off. Thrall means slave, and the thralls were never allowed to own/use any kind of weapon. (except maybe hunting-gear)

-skel-

[Rodion Romanovich]

Wow LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix, thats amasing.... :book:

For the Norse factions, the unit "viking thrall swordsmen" is way off. Thrall means slave, and the thralls were never allowed to own/use any kind of weapon. (except maybe hunting-gear)

-skel-

Ok. Do you have any suggestions for a replacement to fill the slot as "cheap militia-type swordsman" for vikings? Or how do you suggest I change the tech tree?

Also, I'd like any comments about what you think of the system to have one extra series of buildings for "training quality" of units, for example the practise target and archery range to improve missile weapon xp and similar for the other weapon types. Do you like the idea or do you think I should remove it?

[skeletor]

I wold probably call them something like sword hirdmen.

The norse army's were built up by the nobles hirds (bodyguards, or personal/local army). Poor and less important nobles had small, less trained, and bad equipped hirds. The Important nobles/jarls/kings on the other hand, had larger numbers of well trained, good armoured hirdmen. When a king or a jarl went to war, he had to relay on hes "ally nobles" to support hes army with men. The nobles gathered with their hird (10 - 100 men etch) along with the Jarls/kings hird. Together they formed the army.

So the regular sword/spear/archer/axe unit's could be called sword/spear/archer/axe hird. then you get Jarls hird, as better troops, and the finest units can be called kings hird.

This along with the other unique units like nobles, berserkers, jomsvikings, birkebeiners, aso.

-Skel-

[Rodion Romanovich]

Ok, I'll fix that when I get the time. I'll be a little short of time the coming week but I'll be able to devote more time to the mod from next weekend again.

I like your ideas for the viking tech tree but I hadn't heard of birkebeiners. What are they? How good should they be compared to the other viking units, and which building level should unlock them?

Also, I like the picture in your sig. Could we use that as the mod's logo? Only thing I'd like to change then is the text, IMO it would be cool with "A furore Normannorum, libera nos Domine" and a small text with the name of the mod in the lower right corner of the picture.

[Rodion Romanovich]

I've run some tests with existing vanilla R:TW units with modded stats to check what stats would be best to use for the units in order to create a good behavior and achieve slower battle speed. I tested with chosen swordsmen with modded stats. I'll soon post some suggestions for good stats for the different unit types I listed above. I'll not post specific suggestions for each unit, only what I think should be the approximate stats for different TYPES of units, such as what the better swordsmen should have and what stats the militia should have etc.

[skeletor]

Also, I like the picture in your sig. Could we use that as the mod's logo? Only thing I'd like to change then is the text, IMO it would be cool with "A furore Normannorum, libera nos Domine" and a small text with the name of the mod in the lower right corner of the picture.

Done, see here (http://12.freebb.com/viewtopic.php?t=32&freebb=norsetotalwar)


I like your ideas for the viking tech tree but I hadn't heard of birkebeiners. What are they? How good should they be compared to the other viking units, and which building level should unlock them?

They played a vital role in several Norwegian civil wars. birkebeiner means barklegs, from the bark they used to protect their legs. They were supreme skiers, and therefor supreme snow/winter warriors. They were also known for their archer skills.
http://www.ski-nordik.it/manifestazioni/images/birkebeiners.jpg

-skel-

[Rodion Romanovich]

Nice. So should birkebeiners be a unit with bow and spear, or a unit with bow and sword, or two units: birkebeiner swordsmen (for Norway only or available to all viking factions but with zone of recruit in Norwegian provinces?) and birkebeiner archers?

[skeletor]

I,m not really sure, we could have them only as a unique Norwegian (and maybe west swedish) archer unit.

BTW new avatar that doesn't get cut ~:cool:

I
I
I
V

-Skel-

[Rodion Romanovich]

Ah, the new pic indeed looks sweet!

Anyway, regarding the birkebeiners I think it would be fun to have them with zone of recruit in Norwegian provinces. Then the swedish faction can also recruit them if they conquer Norwegian land which will help them later in the game. I've edited so they've been added to the tech tree now.

I'll try to fix complete tech tree suggestions for the remaining factions too by tomorrow or Tuesday.

[King Ragnar]

LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix, i would like to help you in this mod as the one that me and ferret decided to do hasnt made progress in a while and ferret himself hasnt siad anything, i still want to make a viking mod though and i am offering my services if you would like them.

[Rodion Romanovich]

LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix, i would like to help you in this mod as the one that me and ferret decided to do hasnt made progress in a while and ferret himself hasnt siad anything, i still want to make a viking mod though and i am offering my services if you would like them.

Ok, what skills do you have? We'll probably have loads of units in the mod so more modellers/skinners are always welcome, I believe. I'm sure the others in the mod team don't mind if another modder joins the team.

[King Ragnar]

Researching looks like you have done most of that, i can skin but i've just started and i am trying to learn to model units. But i have problems opening the file etc.

[Rodion Romanovich]

No problem, there'll probably be more research to do. There are some holes in the lists I've made - more research is needed before those holes can be filled. We also need to find good pictures for all the units and so on. Most of my sources have been written sources with very few pictures.

[Rodion Romanovich]

I've updated the post about tech trees: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=781924&postcount=52

Now the post contains tech tree suggestions for all factions. One problem is that I couldn't find any good sources about magyar religion so I didn't know what their shrines should be dedicated too.

I'll see what I can do with the province list. Hopefully I'll be able to get a more complete province list ready by tomorrow. When that has been done, I can start working on the campaign map again, yay! Only the province names are really necessary before starting the work on the campaign map, the city names can easily be filled in later.

Edit: BTW some of my thoughts on the campaign map (I'd like to know what you think of these ideas): 1. less forests than in R:TW map, because much more forests had been chopped down at this time. 2. almost no inpenetrable forests at all - if there are forests they should be possible to move through in most cases (with a few exceptions though), 3. perhaps more varied terrain than in RTW, with more hills in the landscapes and so on, 4. possible to sail also in non-coastal seas (in vanilla R:TW you can't move too far away from the spanish coast etc.), 5. more lakes than in RTW in the areas where there are many lakes, 6. now that the team has so many modelers/skinners, I'll be able to put more effort into the campaign map making and I'll base the campaign map on real maps and pictures of different areas and try to make it as realistic as possible.

I also believe you skinners/modellers can start the work on the units shortly as I believe many of the units in the tech tree lists are units that simply HAVE to be in the mod, that probably won't need much discussion: viking berserkers, kataphraktoi, welsh longbowmen, varangian mercenaries etc. I suggest you who do the modelling and/or skinning discuss internally who will model/skin which units. My suggestion is that you, skeletor, primarily create the units that require new models while the others primarily try to skin units which could use almost the same models as in vanilla R:TW because you are the only modeller on the team right now. However, if you, skeletor, have time for it, I think we'd get an even better result if new models are created for all units. Then it'll be possible to slow down movement speed a little (by perhaps 20-40%), and implement more different movement speeds to add tactical depth and make lighter units more interesting etc. If you haven't got time to create that many models and animations, we'll have to find a compromise where we use existing models for many units. For example the chosen swordsmen have a model that I believe can be used for plenty of swordsmen carrying a round shield. And many of the cavalry models can also be reskinned and used almost directly.

Edit2: Here's a list of things I'd like to discuss about my tech tree lists:
1. should khazar too have access to camels? In the suggestion above they can't recruit camels.
2. should all factions be able to recruit the bedouin camels if they capture the zones of recruit where camels can be built for the factions that have camels now?
3. magyar shrines - what gods did they worship when they were pagan?
4. what extra happiness buildings should be used for the orthodox and muslim factions and khazar and magyars?
5. is any faction overpowered in your opinion?
6. are there too many or too few units?
7. should I have more zone of recruit for units and have more local specialists?
8. comments or better suggestions regarding the muslim, khazar and magyar units are welcome. I couldn't find that many sources about their armies so the current tech tree could be wrong

[Agraes]

Hi all, I have some historic knowledge to display (sorry for my approximative english), about Brittany (where Im coming from).

Brittany was colonised by Romano-Brittons during the V and the VIth century, they come from Domnonia and Dyfed principaly. The Tierns (or little kings) of the Britons create 3 main kingdoms : Cornouailles, Domnonée and Bro-Erec.

In the late VIth century the Frank Clothaire fight with the Bretons and killed Conomor, a great breton leader.

During the reign of Carloman, the Franks overcame the Bretons who became their vassals.
But after the death of Louis le Pieux, about 843, Nominoé, who was the governor of Brittany and also a breton noble, take the head of an unrest against the new king of the Francs, Charles le Chauve, and win the victory of Ballon. It is only at this time that the franks countys of Rennes and Nantes becamed part of Brittany.
His son Erispoé became King of Brittany, after the victory of Messac against Charles. But Erispoé was killed by his cousin, Salomon. Salomon became king, and the franks give him the Cotentin (part of actuel Normandy).

When the Vikings rushed Brittany coast, they were going to make it a second normandy, with a lot of colonies like the island of Groix or a principauty next Nantes.
Alain Barbetorte was the grandson of the last king, Alain the Great, he have grew in the court of Aethelstan of Wessex. But he came back in Brittany and won the victory of Trans against the Norses, but then he can't be a king so a became the first duke of Brittany. Brittany stay independant from France until 1532.

Bretons have at the time of Nominoé a powerful war cavalry : they ride little horses, threw javelots in the face of the heavy frank infantry and go back.

I think it will be good too make the Bretons a rebel factions with this special cavalry unit recrutable, or eventually a real faction. At this time they have keep some relations with their cousins of Wales and Cornwall.

So if you want other informations about the Bretons, tell me. I can give you chronology or scans of the cavalry.

Also, this is a site dedicated to the dark age in Britain (V to the VIIth century but you can find infos) : www.earlybritishkingdoms.com

I have a project for a mod about the dark ages and the arthurian period, but I will made it only this automn, after the release of Barbarians Invasions.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Hi Agraes. As you might know, the R:TW engine has a limit to the number of factions you can have, and we've already reached that limit. Brittany will not be an own faction, but we plan to, if there's time and room for it, make all the rebels of the different provinces in the mod use troops typical to the region, either as unique units for the rebels faction, or by using almost similar units from the units that are already owned by the other factions. Either way, I'm thankful for the information you posted.

[Agraes]

Ok no matter ~D

Anyway, I will enjoy your mod cause High Middle Age is a period I like so much, if I gather information on other Celts factions such as Welsh ; I will give transmeet it.

So Good Luck :medievalcheers:

[Rodion Romanovich]

So if you want other informations about the Bretons, tell me. I can give you chronology or scans of the cavalry.


If you know what city/town/village in Britanny was most important around 850 AD that'd be of much help. ~D

You also said you were good at Welsh history? Well, in the province list I've got the provinces:
* Gwyned (northern Wales) - ?
* Powys (middle Wales) - ?
* Gwent (southern Wales) - ?
* Dyfed (western Wales) - ?
* West Wealas / Cerniu / Cornwall - southwest England
I don't know which cities/towns/villages to use there either.

[Rodion Romanovich]

NEWS UPDATE May 24th, 2005
=======================
Province and tech tree lists updated. The province list is almost complete now but there are some regions which are very hard to find info about. Mostly North africa and Middle east regions lack good sources.

[Agraes]

Mmm for Brittany the must will be to make 2 provinces : Brittany (Rebels) and Brittany March (Rennes and Nantes Counties).

In Brittany the main city can be Vannes (the name became Gwened in Breton), it was not the city where the kings where olding their court (they got palaces) but it was an important city.
In Brittany march, the capital may be Rennes or Nantes (the biggest), this march was made of two counties.

As I know, this is the main cities for the early middle age (V-VIth century) in Wales. Otherway you can refer to the cities in Viking Invasion ~;)

Gwent : Caerleon-upon-Uisc
Dyfed : Carmarthen (Caer-Myrddin)
Cerniu : Isca (modern Exeter) or Tintagel (a real place but was it an important stronghold in the IXth century ?)
Gwynedd : Deganwy, or Din Conwy (was the fortress of Maelgun Gwynedd, but it was destructed in 850)

Also, make Strathclyde as a rebel faction : it was a briton kingdom that became part of Scotland in the XIth century if I remeber.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Ok, nice. Do you know where I can find a good map indicating exactly where they cities are situated? I already have some maps but they aren't complete, especially for the Wales area, where they aren't showing a single town whereas they show around 50 towns for the England part of Britain...

Strathclyde will be rebels, yes.

[Rodion Romanovich]

@ALL mod team members: I've started work on campaign map again. If things keep going as well as they've done today I'll probably have something ready to show screenshots from in one or two weeks from now.

[skeletor]

Aje.... :jumping:

Looking forward to that. My work have been a bit slow lately, and i have only half finished unit's yet. I had to do some try and fails, and that takes time, but unit's are comming.

Keep up the good work..

-Skel-

[Rodion Romanovich]

unit's are comming

Nice, now I'm jumping too :jumping:

[oj121]

Hey guys im a specialist historian on Medieval Britain and im from Wales so im sure i can help you.

As for the provinces, the Pembroke region of Wales as far east as Swansea was known as Deaubaerth (mind the spelling) and Gwent wasnt an area either, it was known as something different, joining all of South east wales. As for NorthWales you have Powys and Gwynydd. I love Welsh history and ive studied it in great detail, although i specialised in King John. If you want any help email me at oj121@hotmail.com and i will help if i can.

[GoreBag]

Things look really good here so far; I'm impressed. I have a suggestion, though. I've heard that when William the Conqueror invaded in 1066, the Saxon force that fought against him made particular use of slings. This may need to be verified, but I thought it might be a noteworthy addition to the Saxon roster.

[Wikingus]

As a total Viking fanatic, I am awaiting this mod and drooling! ~:cheers:

[Rodion Romanovich]

Thanks, it's fun to hear that the work is being appreciated!

@NeonGod: I believe the saxon force at Hastings was mostly infantry (huscarles with axes and large round shields and fyrdmen with spears) but it's possible they had a few slingers too. What's your source, I can't find anything special about saxon slingers.

[oj121]

The thing with Saxon Slingers is that they were just a regional unit of no particular importance. Harold had to find some form of missile defence at Hastings as he had left his archers at Stamford Bridge(Noob) and as a result all he could muster were a few slingers. I suppose it could be worth including them as a basic missile unit for the Saxons with archers being a level 2 upgrade?!?!?! Although small amounts were present at such an important battle they weren't regarded as anything other than emergency troops, but to be fair id prefer slingers rather than nothing!

[Kamahl]

Factions:
=======
REAL FACTIONS
- Norway - pagan
- Sweden - pagan
- Denmark - pagan
- Rus - orthodox
- Normandy - catholic
- Saxons - catholic
- Scots - catholic
- Irish - catholic
- Welsh - catholic
- France - catholic
- Holy roman empire - catholic
- Kingdom of Lotharingia - catholic
- Kingdom of Asturia - catholic
- Papal state - catholic
- Magyars - pagan
- Bulgars - orthodox
- Khazars - jewish
- Byzantine empire - orthodox
- Abbassids - muslim
- Al Andalus - muslim
- (and of course the Rebels)

Dont get me as ungreatfull for doing this but you forghot the slovanic ppl that were near the medditaranion sea and had a state named Karantania just after the total collapse of the roman empire

[Rodion Romanovich]

@Kamahl: There is a faction limit hardcoded in R:TW and that limit has already been reached, so no more factions can be added. If it had been possible we would have included several factions that aren't included now.

@oj121: You can get the first, simplest type of bow-armed troops in a level 1 building, I don't know what you mean with level 2 upgrade?!?!

After some consideration I've decided to include slingers in the saxon unit rooster too.

[King Ragnar]

On the slinger theory they weren't really slingers, they just had men behind the shield wall throwing big rocks/stones and javelins as the Normans advanced up the hill.

[oj121]

They can be loosely regarded as slingers as they used whatever they could to hurl rocks and slings would have been readily available.

What i meant by level 1 and 2 is maybe with the saxons, when you build a building on the archery route, maybe the first type of building can only produce slingers, then maybe as the settlement expands and you can improve the building, then archers become available.

[Rodion Romanovich]

On the slinger theory they weren't really slingers, they just had men behind the shield wall throwing big rocks/stones and javelins as the Normans advanced up the hill.

Ok. All factions, saxons included, already have javelinmen so that solves the javelin problem. Adding a stone thrower unit isn't a good idea though, neither is it good to give many troops an ability to throw stones. Perhaps slingers is the best way to represent them after all? I'm not sure... Right now they have slingers but I don't believe we'll create more than one, generic slinger unit, so it's easy to decide about whether saxons will have slingers or not later. My opinion right now is that I actually think they shouldn't have any...

[GoreBag]

Ok. All factions, saxons included, already have javelinmen so that solves the javelin problem. Adding a stone thrower unit isn't a good idea though, neither is it good to give many troops an ability to throw stones. Perhaps slingers is the best way to represent them after all? I'm not sure... Right now they have slingers but I don't believe we'll create more than one, generic slinger unit, so it's easy to decide about whether saxons will have slingers or not later. My opinion right now is that I actually think they shouldn't have any...

Were javelins really the catch-all basic missile unit used by all of those cultures? I've never heard anything about Germanic javelins.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Were javelins really the catch-all basic missile unit used by all of those cultures? I've never heard anything about Germanic javelins.

Javelins are such simple weapons that everyone can get hold of one if they want it. It's probably older or as old as the hand-held spear and all you need to do is really cut down a branch or a small tree and sharpen one edge of it. However, only a few factions had javelinmen of greater importance and therefore only a few have javelinmen of higher quality available in their tech trees. As you see the javelins are in the militia complex building system whereas the archers, who are the more standardized missile troops at the time, are in a specific complex building system and are much superior to the javelins in most cases.

[skeletor]

It sounds a little exotic. I i've also reard about the slingers used at Hastings, and i also belive that people throwing rocks in battle was rather common. I think i read some were about scots using them regularly . They could have short range, and otherwise be pretty crappy (maybe mercs). The headhurlers have a good model/animation for them.

- I'll look if i can find some sources of how mutch they were deployed.

-Skel-

[SkyElf]

Looks like the MOD will be very interesting. ~:) I can't wait to give it a try! Great work gentlemen. ~:cheers:

[skeletor]

Some new test skins:

http://img166.echo.cx/img166/6375/swedeswordlandownershird5oo.png

Swedish Landowner sword hirdman.

http://img166.echo.cx/img166/3364/norswordlandownershird3jo.png

Norwegian Landowner sword hirdman.

The shields are improvised, and will be changed to more accurate once.

-Skel-

[Meneldil]

I think there are real slingers on the Bayeux Tapestry.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Some new test skins


Sweet! ~:cheers:

Regarding stone throwers I agree that using the head hurler animation could actually turn out to be quite interesting. I suggest we give them a range around the same as for javelins, or maybe slightly greater, but damage lower than for javelins. But I'm not sure how far you can throw a stone by hand compared to how far you can throw a javelin...

[Captain-Tiguris]

Hi guys!

I havent been around much so I haven't had a chance to look through everything.

---------------------------------

I do not agree on the stone-throwing idea, stone-throwing is for slingers. Any way, they would of been used to distract the opposistion in combat whilst the other units, such as archers or javelin-throwers could pick them off....

[Wikingus]

Great skins there, nice to see things moving along.
Rest assured, there is great anticipation of this mod. :bow:

[King Ragnar]

Some new test skins: -

Very very nice ~D ~D ~D

[Kamahl]

@Kamahl: There is a faction limit hardcoded in R:TW and that limit has already been reached, so no more factions can be added. If it had been possible we would have included several factions that aren't included now.

@oj121: You can get the first, simplest type of bow-armed troops in a level 1 building, I don't know what you mean with level 2 upgrade?!?!

After some consideration I've decided to include slingers in the saxon unit rooster too.
damn it i so hoped to play with my ppl.and woop those romans :duel: :charge:

[Wikingus]

damn it i so hoped to play with my ppl.and woop those romans :duel: :charge:

There was no Carantania in the Roman times anyway. :book:

[Rodion Romanovich]

Hi guys!

I havent been around much so I haven't had a chance to look through everything.

---------------------------------

I do not agree on the stone-throwing idea, stone-throwing is for slingers. Any way, they would of been used to distract the opposistion in combat whilst the other units, such as archers or javelin-throwers could pick them off....

Ok, I'm not entirely sure either about stone throwers but it sounds cool. I had in mind a unit which gave lower missile damage than slingers and javelins and with short range, who will inflict almost no casualties at all but have a distracting effect and also slightly demoralize militia opponents somewhat. I think we'll have to discuss that more...

@ALL: I have two questions I'd like to discuss:

1. Should we use the warcry ability for any troops? I'm against it because I don't think it makes sense that units fight better just because they screamed a little before rushing into battle and fight less good if they didn't scream. Instead, in order to get the epic effect a warcry gives, I'd recommend changing the sound of the units when they charge so they scream louder. I'd like to hear your opinions on that.

2. I've run some tests with vanilla R:TW units and here are my suggestions for stats:
* Professional swordsmen should have stats somewhere between praetorian and urban cohorts
* Militia to medium quality swordsmen have stats somewhere between principes and praetorians
* Elite swordsmen have stats like urban cohorts or better but with small unit
* Militia spearmen could be like german spear warband
* Professional/armored spearmen could have stats slightly better than german spear warband
* Feudal foot sergeants and other speararmed semi-elite have stats between armenian armored spearmen and greek hoplites but with quite good morale
* Crossbows: range as chosen archer warband, same attack, very slow firing speed
* Genoese crossbows: range as cretan archers, slightly higher attack, higher movement speed, very slow firing speed
* Longbowmen: range as cretan archers, slightly lower attack, fast firing speed
* Normal archers: range as barbarian archer warband, same attack
* Militia archers: range lower than barbarian archer warband, lower attack
* Javelinmen: same or higher attack than R:TW skirmishers, samt speed
* Slingers: same stats as R:TW slingers
I also suggest better charge for all light and missile troops, but very low attack and still almost as low defense as the R:TW missile units have. Perhaps slightly better morale for the most professional missile troops.
* Militia cavalry: stats in same class as equites and greek cavalry
* Unprofessional light cavalry: stats like greek cavalry to barbarian cavalry
* Professional light cavalry: stats like desert cavalry but not with the extra large unit size desert cav has in vanilla R:TW, perhaps slightly lowered speed
* Camels: stats like bedouin camels in R:TW but with slightly better morale, attack and defense, as well as better anti-morale bonus against enemy cavalry, but stats should still be lower than the cataphract camels parthia has in vanilla R:TW
* Medium to heavy cavalry: stats like barbarian noble cavalry to legionary cavalry
* Super heavy cavalry: stats around same as cataphracts, companions and praetorians (but some of those super heavy units will have small unit size)

What do you think of these stats suggestions?

[King Ragnar]

Im not sure about the warcry there isn't really any troops that spring to mind who could use it. I think the longbowmen should have the same attack or even higher than than cretan archers, the rest seem fine.

[skeletor]

1.
1. Should we use the warcry ability for any troops? I'm against it because I don't think it makes sense that units fight better just because they screamed a little before rushing into battle and fight less good if they didn't scream. Instead, in order to get the epic effect a warcry gives, I'd recommend changing the sound of the units when they charge so they scream louder. I'd like to hear your opinions on that.

I think this is a good idea, i also think the warcry part is kind of stupid. I wold rather have the wedgeformation for infantry of unit's. The wedge were commonly used by viking army's in Scandinavia, and probably in viking influenced parts of Britain too. It was called "svinfylking" or swinearay, were you placed the bravest man in the front, and 2 less breve behind him, and so on. (Offcourse they had to abandon this tactic later when facing medieval armys from central Europe.)


2. I have looked very little at stats, so i can't really say what seems good or bad. For my part, i intend to skin the units so that the player easily can see how good the armour is.

(Dame, my gallery at imageshack is down :furious3: if the pic's doesn't come back, i'll make a new gallery, sorry.)

-Skel-

[Afsin]

[removed]

[skeletor]

Wow great thnx. [added to my folder]

Any other conseptart is very welcome..

-Skel-

[The Apostate]

Hi - apologies I've not posted for a couple of weeks but had some serious job searching to do - but see there's been a lot of progress while I've been away.

Today produced a long post on provinces and cities but managed to lose it by using the back and forward buttons during composition so will have to start again...

In brief had some minor corrections/suggestions on Northern Europe and rather more on Southern and Central.

General principle is that provinces should be as close as possible to Frankish duchies, Byzantine themata etc.

Also suggested that we need more provinces in the Middle East and North Africa.

In principle other than in the Sahara and Arabia Deserta there should be cities roughly as close together as in Vanilla RTW Italy (i.e. a couple of more in Persia and Iraq, plus a few more dotted along the North African coast).

However more on these tomorrow.

Did we agree a start date? I still hold with 911 for various reasons I've explained before (Normans, Lotharingia/Italy, Abassids, Rus etc).

Finally can we set up some sub-threads for units, provinces, factions, buildings etc as this one is getting a bit labyrinthine.

[GoreBag]

I think the stats for the units should be based more on each unit's historical ability to fight instead of general ideas on how well they'd fight comparatively. That being said, don't Chosen Warbands have a better range than normal archers? Crossbows are effective at a shorter range than normal bows.

On the warcry: I think certain units should have them - this is the Age of Fanatics, after all, and the Scots, Irish and Vikings have fanaticism in plenty. It shouldn't provide an attack bonus as much as a morale bonus, though.

[The Apostate]

Agree warcry is kind of dumb - never used it in RTW.

Infantry wedges or some kind of phalanx equivalent for a shieldwall would be better.

On unit stats would generally prefer to have a lot fewer uber-units equivalent to Urban Cohorts and Praetorian cavalry as it makes the end game really boring - you build a full stack army of elite units and can steamroller over everything.

Historically there were also very few real professional soldiers - even the bulk of the Byzantine army was made up of thematic militia.

Such elite units that are allowed should also be significantly smaller (i.e no 240-strong uber infantry units like Royal Pikemen or Argyraspides).

e.g Fyrd should be 240 and Huscarls 64.

In addition all units should be way harder to kill and to rout than in RTW - however that is achieved.

Also believe that cavalry should be weaker than in RTW - few battles were won by cavalry charges in this era (if they were the Vikings would have been much less of a threat to the Franks) and even the Muslims and Byzantines tended to rely more on missile than shock cavalry.

There should also be a major difference between late (11th century) knights using a couched lance and their predessors who appear to have mainly used their lances thrusting overarm (the Bayeux Tapestry shows both as well as spears being thrown by the Norman cavalry).

This could be handled by giving all except the top level Frankish and Byzantine units much lower charge bonuses.

Also would prefer to not see many Swordsmen units as historically the spear and axe were far more common and true swords (as opposed to seaxes etc) were restricted to the upper class elites who could afford them - however even they seem to have preferred to have slugged it out with spears, axes and lances in battle and kept their swords in reserve as a sidearm.

Been reading a lot of Norse Sagas recently and while heroes might compose poems about their swords, these feature far more commonly in formal duels than in battle accounts.

The only people who employed swords as a primary weapon on foot appear to have been the Swabians from Germany.

Also believe that archers should be generally few and far between - like Gallic forester warbands in RTW only recruitable at level 3 and taking 2 turns -it took a lot more training to produce a competent archer than a spearman.

This was even more true of horse archers who should not be mass produced by the Khazars and Magyars at the rate they are by the Scythians and Parthians in RTW.

In fact there's a case for making them a hidden resource units like Spartans - historically only the Russian Steppes and the Hungarian plain were suitable for the large scale pastoralism that produced effective horse archers in large numbers.

[GoreBag]

Agree warcry is kind of dumb - never used it in RTW.

Infantry wedges or some kind of phalanx equivalent for a shieldwall would be better.

On unit stats would generally prefer to have a lot fewer uber-units equivalent to Urban Cohorts and Praetorian cavalry as it makes the end game really boring - you build a full stack army of elite units and can steamroller over everything.

Historically there were also very few real professional soldiers - even the bulk of the Byzantine army was made up of thematic militia.

Such elite units that are allowed should also be significantly smaller (i.e no 240-strong uber infantry units like Royal Pikemen or Argyraspides).

e.g Fyrd should be 240 and Huscarls 64.

In addition all units should be way harder to kill and to rout than in RTW - however that is achieved.

Also believe that cavalry should be weaker than in RTW - few battles were won by cavalry charges in this era (if they were the Vikings would have been much less of a threat to the Franks) and even the Muslims and Byzantines tended to rely more on missile than shock cavalry.

There should also be a major difference between late (11th century) knights using a couched lance and their predessors who appear to have mainly used their lances thrusting overarm (the Bayeux Tapestry shows both as well as spears being thrown by the Norman cavalry).

This could be handled by giving all except the top level Frankish and Byzantine units much lower charge bonuses.

Also would prefer to not see many Swordsmen units as historically the spear and axe were far more common and true swords (as opposed to seaxes etc) were restricted to the upper class elites who could afford them - however even they seem to have preferred to have slugged it out with spears, axes and lances in battle and kept their swords in reserve as a sidearm.

Been reading a lot of Norse Sagas recently and while heroes might compose poems about their swords, these feature far more commonly in formal duels than in battle accounts.

The only people who employed swords as a primary weapon on foot appear to have been the Swabians from Germany.

Also believe that archers should be generally few and far between - like Gallic forester warbands in RTW only recruitable at level 3 and taking 2 turns -it took a lot more training to produce a competent archer than a spearman.

This was even more true of horse archers who should not be mass produced by the Khazars and Magyars at the rate they are by the Scythians and Parthians in RTW.

In fact there's a case for making them a hidden resource units like Spartans - historically only the Russian Steppes and the Hungarian plain were suitable for the large scale pastoralism that produced effective horse archers in large numbers.

You must mean a "sax"; "seaxe" was the name of a region in England.

I agree with most of what you say other than the bit about the Swabians. The Claymore, while hollywood-ized almost enough to be a fantasy weapon, was in use at this point, and should be used by Gaelic troops in this mod.

[Captain-Tiguris]

I agree the warcry should be used. As it was probably used to unnerve the opposistion. And based on a few things, I believe some Norse battle cry when charging into combat.


As for the second I agree.

But the camels should be re-made, as the dont look great on the vanilla one.

[Rodion Romanovich]

In principle other than in the Sahara and Arabia Deserta there should be cities roughly as close together as in Vanilla RTW Italy (i.e. a couple of more in Persia and Iraq, plus a few more dotted along the North African coast).


Ok. I think it's a bonus though when the density of cities is more varied - i.e. in some places two cities almost right next to each other and in other places further apart. Also my principles were these:
1. extra density in British isles because of mod focus.
2. importance of cities should matter.
3. lower density in north africa, steppes and middle east area, no matter how it was historically, in order to prevent the abbassids from being overpowered.
4. I didn't care about province names and border drawings because the provinces aren't the main element of R:TW warfare - the city locations are. So I'm partly against being too restricted to french duchies, Byzantine themata etc. I suggest focusing on cities and cities importance. Only in cases where the are NO important cities at all in an area that was distinctly different than the rest and was for example for a long time independent from the country holding the nearby provinces (for example Britanny, Samland etc.)
5. I've already changed the province list a lot when working on the campaign map so the one posted above isn't the one I'm using right now. I've reached so far with the campaign map that I'll wait with editing things until I'm ready as feedback rather than starting point.



Did we agree a start date? I still hold with 911 for various reasons I've explained before (Normans, Lotharingia/Italy, Abassids, Rus etc).


It's 843 now. Sorry, but you were gone so long so most things have already been planned around it now.

[The Apostate]

Actually we're both wrong: it's spelled seax (no e on end).

I know of no evidence whatsoever for claymores in the viking era.

Everything I've read suggests that two-handed swords were introduced to Ireland and Scotland by the gallowglass no earlier than the 13th century (and probably considerably later than that).

Certainly Giraldus Cambrensis - who is almost unique amongst monkish chroniclers in describing arms and armour in some detail - does not mention them in his account of the Norman conquest of Ireland.

And even amongst the later gallowglass the claymore was always much less common than the axe.

The earliest depictions of galloglaich are the 13th or 14th C Roscommon and Glinsk tomb effigies all of which carry long sparth-axes and swords which are short enough to be worn scabbarded ar the waist (and which are thus not true claidheamh-mor - which as the name suggests were great swords which had to be carried like a staff or slung over a shoulder).

Only amongst much later (15th - 16th C) highlanders was the claymore at all common - although it is highly doubtful that more than a minority of a clan levy could have afforded such an expensive item of equipment and in any case it was hardly the most suitable weapon for raiding parties who had to run lightly through the heather.

In contrast Irish and Scots of the viking era appear to have been iron-poor and to have used short leaf-bladed thrusting swords like those depicted on the Aberlemno Cross (and even these were a prestige weapon).

Under viking influence the Irish adopted the axe to the degree that by Goraldus Cambrensis (12th C) an Irishman and his axe were considered inseparable - however they never took to swords to the same degree.

Even the swords used by tbe Swabians at Civitate were not true two-handed swords like the later claymore or zweihander - they actually seem to have been clsoer to what were called in the Renaissance hand-and-a-half or bastard swords (i.e. nearer to 4 than 6 foot long and balanced to be used either one- or two-handed).

[Rodion Romanovich]

Infantry wedges or some kind of phalanx equivalent for a shieldwall would be better.


Wedge is svinefylking/swinefylking/svinfylking, and by not using the "untrained" attribute for the infantry they form a straight, good shield wall by default when not moving too fast and when not using wedge formation. The phalanx formation will be saved for the spear units to reflect how a spear unit must slow down if they want to hold their formation in combat whereas the normal spear units can rush into battle at full speed which is unrealistic IMO. Militia and untrained troops get the "untrained" attribute and thus won't create an as impregnable shield wall and stand in a slight disarray although still in pretty neat lines. The horde formation will not be used other than, perhaps, for some specialist units like berserkers.



On unit stats would generally prefer to have a lot fewer uber-units equivalent to Urban Cohorts and Praetorian cavalry as it makes the end game really boring - you build a full stack army of elite units and can steamroller over everything.


In fact the R:TW morale is too low and battle speed is too high and that's the reason for this. If the professionals are only slightly below urban cohorts in stats then they aren't über-professionals compared to the other troops. The militia will for example have stats like principes to praetorians. Game engine-wise it's the relative stats that matter and if we use these stats we'll never get the feeling that the elite is as superior as you think. In fact, the elite will be less superior to the levies in this mod than in vanilla R:TW. There will be no steamrolling, on the contrary it'll make things more even. Also, the true elite will be remarkably more expensive and require more training turns than the levies, which means militia will play a major role. Finally, much of the elite units will have smaller unit size. So the historical correctness will be achieved - militia will be the bulk of most armies. That'll be further reinforced by the fact that most militia have 0 turns training time and can be recruited in large numbers quickly when needed whereas the elite will require long training so you'll hardly be able to field an army of more than 25% elite units even in the later parts of the game.



Also believe that cavalry should be weaker than in RTW - few battles were won by cavalry charges in this era (if they were the Vikings would have been much less of a threat to the Franks) and even the Muslims and Byzantines tended to rely more on missile than shock cavalry.


The urban cohorts and other vanilla R:TW troops are able to withstand most cavalry charges from the best R:TW cavalry unless you expose their flank to them and they outnumber you badly. Also, same thing here: the elite cavalry will have smaller unit sizes. I'm also considering to lower the defense stats for most of them, as well as lowering attack and charge for the cataphract equivalents. Kataphraktoi and klibanophoroi will not move much faster than infantry...




Been reading a lot of Norse Sagas recently and while heroes might compose poems about their swords, these feature far more commonly in formal duels than in battle accounts.


Ok, please come with suggestions for how the tech trees should be changed accordingly. Perhaps axe and sword units should just change places with each other in the tech trees and the problem is solved. Either way there need to be at least 4 levels of infantry buildings for most factions with most factions having new troop recruiting abilities in each building level for it to be balanced and fun. That's why I've for example made an archer unit called bowman and another called archer who only differ in stats.



Also believe that archers should be generally few and far between - like Gallic forester warbands in RTW only recruitable at level 3 and taking 2 turns -it took a lot more training to produce a competent archer than a spearman.


Militia archers will be very weak and therefore by choice not recruited much - a spearman would be preferable. Better archers will also be quite weak in comparison to other units. I've chosen stats for infantry around urban cohort level and so on, which means the archer don't achieve much. Of course, all my balancing was made with large unit size so it might be different with other unit sizes, but large or huge units is how the mod is intended to be played. If you run some tests you'll see that the archers will have little effect on such troops. However I'm considering to perhaps lower their attack stats even more, however keep the other stats the same. The battle of Hastings was won, according to my view, thanks to the archers. It was them more than the fake charges and retreats from close combat troops that forced Harold to break ranks (which made him vulnerable to the norman cavalry) and by the end of the day had weakened his position so much that the normans were able to charge him and win. The archers will still have this effect of forcing someone without archers to attack or be weakened if he camps the same position too long and therefore remain an important tactical instrument - however they'll be too weak to do much damage in a short period of time.



This was even more true of horse archers who should not be mass produced by the Khazars and Magyars at the rate they are by the Scythians and Parthians in RTW.

In fact there's a case for making them a hidden resource units like Spartans - historically only the Russian Steppes and the Hungarian plain were suitable for the large scale pastoralism that produced effective horse archers in large numbers.


Already done. They will have long training time and high cost, and are so weak in meleé that noone would recruit them to see them die quickly in their first battle. Most of them, except the generic unit called "horse archer", have zone of recruit.

[Rodion Romanovich]

But the camels should be re-made, as the dont look great on the vanilla one.

I agree

[Rodion Romanovich]

I think the stats for the units should be based more on each unit's historical ability to fight instead of general ideas on how well they'd fight comparatively.


What do you mean? I'm basing on historical evidence how well they fight compared to each other. Cavalry isn't more powerful because they weren't historically, and so on. For more detailed planning on the specific units we'll look at more historical data but it's really hard to only use historical data for giving units correct stats: in battle X unit Y might have charged unit Z from the flank rather than from the front and that's why they won and so on... Or unit X happened to be a veteran unit whereas unit Y was only semi-professional...

So if it is to have maximum historical accuracy it must be based on some general data about how certain unit CLASSES (heavy swordsmen, light cavalry, crossbowmen etc. rather than specific units like huscarle, berserker, longbowmen etc.) fought compared to other because there there is enough data to have reliable statistics about the other alternative. Then, if there is evidence of one unit type in each class having outstanding abilities in one field or lack of abilities in one field etc. we can do adjustments accordingly, starting from basic unit CLASS stats that we decide first. Also, if a certain faction had a training system which gave veterans only of a certain unit type, we could make them always start with higher stats but with longer training time etc.


On the warcry: I think certain units should have them - this is the Age of Fanatics, after all, and the Scots, Irish and Vikings have fanaticism in plenty. It shouldn't provide an attack bonus as much as a morale bonus, though.



I agree the warcry should be used. As it was probably used to unnerve the opposistion. And based on a few things, I believe some Norse battle cry when charging into combat.


Yes, warcries were used but they didn't work the way they do in R:TW - that you stand and scream for 10 seconds, then charge and get an attack bonus for it. They work more like that the unit which charges screams loud and unnerving while rushing towards the enemy. The warcry ability in R:TW is IMO badly implemented and means you can't plan tactics much. If someone attacks your line and you have a flanking troop ready, but forgot to warcry with it before, you'll have to stand for a few seconds screaming before you can go around the flank and charge with a bonus. When the unit finally hits the flank, they get two boni - one for warcry and one for charge.

As far as I know, the warcry was used when charging rather than before battle, and was ALWAYS used when charging. This 100% correlation means it's possible to achieve the same effect by giving a unit a higher charge bonus and a fierce warcry sound instead of the current charge sound. Regarding the idea of lowering attack stats for warcry - sorry but afaik it's hardcoded. Alternative would be to give the units the screeching women or druid taunt ability and change the sound if you want a taunt before battle that'll only affect morale. However, that blocks the usage of svinefylking/wedge for the units, as there's only room for one ability per unit, and I think svinefylking has higher priority as special ability because there is another way of simulating a warcry giving an attack bonus by adding it to the charge bonus. Stats of berserkers and other unnerving troops could also be affected by giving them a "frightens infantry" ability.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Ok for modding purposes we must decide which hardcoded faction will become which faction in the mod. Here's what I've been using so far:

romans_julii -> Holy roman empire
romans_brutii -> Lotharingia
romans_scipii -> France
romans_senate -> Papal states
egypt -> Abbassids
scythia -> Al Andalus
spain -> Asturia
dacia -> Bulgars
parthia -> Byzantine empire
carthage -> Danes
numidia -> Irish
armenia -> Khazars
germans -> Magyars
seleucid -> Normans
britons - Norway
thrace -> Rus
macedon -> Saxons
pontus -> Scots
greek_cities - Sweden
gauls -> Welsh
slave -> slave

[The Apostate]

And everyone had war cries - for that matter modern soldiers are still trained to scream loudly in bayonet charges although it is extremely unlikely they will ever have to use them.

I really don't think it should figure as a special ability.

On cavalry I obviously fought too many battles on VH setting where good cavalry can rout a phalanx or urban cohort head on.

Reducing speed for very heavy cavalry like Klibanophoroi is a good idea - although speed seems to have been restricted by formation rather than by the weight of armour.

There is also the issue that historically Byzantine cavalry did not perform well against western knights - even though the latter were often much less well armoured and had lighter shorter lances than the byzantine kontarion.

This was a tactical choice - according to the manual written by Nikephoros Phokas Byzantine cavalry were trained to attack at a trot in close order and appear to have relied as much on maces as on the lance - in fact Phokas specifies that the first four ranks of his klibanophoroi formation should be armed with maces with more lightly armoured lancers on the flanks and archers behind.

Indeed the way in which the Frankish charge is described by Anna Comnena seems to indicate that the couched lance was no longer used by the Byzantines by the 11th century (there was probably not that much point in couching a lance without the added momentum of a charge at the gallop) and had to be reintroduced by Manuel Comnenus in the 12th.

To model this one should probably reduce not only their speed but also their charge bonus.

On axe and swordsmen I really don't think anyone other than the Germans should use swords as a primary weapon.

This does make the troop rosters rather limited: Saxons for instance should strictly speaking just have spear units of different quality with some mediocre missile troops and no cavalry (the huscarls of Hastings were only introduced by the Danish kings and so should only be available at the very top of the tech tree).

To inject some variety you could have say fyrd spearmen at level 1, better select fyrd spearmen at level 2, thegns with sword and shield at level 3 equivalent to chosen swordsmen (actually these would have had spears as well but that would be boring) and axe-armed huscarls at level 4.

For viking armies the level 1 infantry would be spear armed bondi, level 2 might be one-handed axe and shield landsmen, level 3 two handed axe hirdsmen and level 4 royal huscarls - however this is very artificial.

High level Frankish units would have to be dismounted knights as there was no real elite infantry in this era (armoured footmen in Carolingian mss are probably dismounted cavalry).

However overall I think a three level barbarian tech tree would better reflect 9th-11th century reality outside of the Byzantine and Muslim worlds - if you want gothic cathedrals, stone castles etc you have to make it a more generic medieval mod (with all the problems that poses for conversion, crusades, etc - MTW did all that much better).

With four levels you will have to introduce a bunch of what are effectively fantasy units to fill the gaps in western rosters.

[The Apostate]

Faction list looks good.

Two suggestions:

I would prefer Italy as a faction rather than Lotharingia (which only really existed as a kingdom from 843 to 869) - again start date is crucial here.

Also don't think Asturias was important or distinctive enough to be a faction and would prefer a Muslim one based in North Africa to fill the gap between Abassids and Umayyads (which would be a better faction name than al-Andalus).

These either could be Fatimids who start off with Tunisia and Algeria or Tulunids with Egypt.

Without a North African faction you'll have to make the whole continent rebel territory (otherwise you'll have an unstoppable Abbassid Juggernaut on your hands).

[skeletor]

With four levels you will have to introduce a bunch of what are effectively fantasy units to fill the gaps in western rosters.

Viking, and anglo saxon army's didn't have any strict organisation or many specialised units with their own names... So to fill these gap's, we can use the "heavy" description, to describe bether armour and weapons that were develuped in this timeframe.

I allso made an other system for the norse/vikings to become more accurate, without adding fantasy units in an earlyer post:


The norse army's were built up by the nobles hirds (bodyguards, or personal/local army). Poor and less important nobles had small, less trained, and bad equipped hirds. The Important nobles/jarls/kings on the other hand, had larger numbers of well trained, good armoured hirdmen. When a king or a jarl went to war, he had to relay on hes "ally nobles" to support hes army with men. The nobles gathered with their hird (10 - 100 men etch) along with the Jarls/kings hird. Together they formed the army.

So the regular sword/spear/archer/axe unit's could be called sword/spear/archer/axe hird. then you get Jarls hird, as better troops, and the finest units can be called kings hird.

-Skel-

[The Apostate]

By the time of Olaf II there were three levels of royal Hird: Gestr, Huscarls and Hirdmen (note that there were only 120 men in total for the entire hird!)

Earlier Harald Fairhair is meant to have instituted a system by which each jarl should maintain a hird of 60 men and have under him four or more local chieftains called hersir each of which would maintain 20 more hirdsmen.

However many of these would be better represented as general's bodyguards than seperate units.

On reflection I would only allow a three level tech tree for vikings and have undifferentiated Hirdmen as the level three units.

There was also an equivalent of the Saxon select fyrd called the leidang which would supply the level 2 unit which IMO would be not swordsmen but good quality spearmen (even if they had them swords were far too expensive and required too much space to be used in the shieldwall).

Level 1 would be bondi spearmen representing the levee en masse.

The only other Viking units would be archers and berserkers (barring a very late saga description of Stamford Bridge there is no evidence whatsoever for viking cavalry ever being used on a battlefield).

Given that some spears were thrown one could also have a javelin skirmisher unit.

Of course in reality all these troop types (except for the royal bodyguard) would be mixed together in local contingents rather than split up into units but this is a game....

[Rodion Romanovich]

I agree with skeletor that words like heavy, chosen and elite etc. can be used to create the different levels needed. In a few emergency cases the next building can give what last building gave but with +1 xp (like equites and triarii in pre-marius time in vanilla R:TW). No fantasy units are needed. Besides a certain troop type was not exactly the same that long, there were always small improvements in fighting and equipment even though there weren't any new names for the "units".

I'll have a look at the tech trees and try to make axes more easily available but swords harder to get. In general I want it this way: if there were ANY troops at all using sword in the period, swordsmen should be possible to recruit. If they were uncommon due to costs, they should still be in the mod, but cost more. That'll be the case for dismounted frankish knights for example.

Also notice that there are different building complexes for swordsmen and spearmen etc. Better sword buildings could be made more expensive and take longer than better spear buildings too for historical balancing.

So I'd like to know which factions of those listed above should be more focused around axes. So far I'm convinced danes, norwegians and saxons should have more focus on axes and have fewer swordsmen. Saxon axe huscarles are already as it is quite far up their tech tree because it'll take long before they reach the higher city levels unless they expand and capture Paris or something... Vikings get their huscarles slightly earlier in the tech tree.

Franks will have swords for their foot knights (=dismounted normal knights), were swords common among the semi-professional franks too? By germans, do you mean HRE or all germanic peoples?

Did muslims use a comination of sables and axes mostly for their infantry?

The byzantines as well as the rus have already got focus more around spears and axes than around swords in the current tech tree.

I'm not sure the celts relied that much on axes, everything I've heard suggests they used swords much... ~:confused: When did they switch their swords from the ancient period to axes, only to switch back to swords again in the later Medieval period?

[Rodion Romanovich]

By the time of Olaf II there were three levels of royal Hird: Gestr, Huscarls and Hirdmen (note that there were only 120 men in total for the entire hird!)

Earlier Harald Fairhair is meant to have instituted a system by which each jarl should maintain a hird of 60 men and have under him four or more local chieftains called hersir each of which would maintain 20 more hirdsmen.

However many of these would be better represented as general's bodyguards than seperate units.

On reflection I would only allow a three level tech tree for vikings and have undifferentiated Hirdmen as the level three units.


No, that can easily become four levels:
1. landsmenn (militia)
2. karls (better militia) AND gestr
3. karls (better militia) AND huscarles
4. karls (better militia) AND hirdmenn

or:
1. landsmenn (militia) AND gestr
2. karls (better militia) AND huscarles (with axe)
3. sword huscarles (much more expensive than with swords)
4. hirdmenn

or:
1. landsmenn (militia) AND gestr
2. karls (better militia) AND huscarles (with axe) AND sword huscarles (much more expensive than with swords)
3. jarls hird
4. joms vikings, birkebeiners (zone of recruit and small units for both), royal hird (expensive)

or something along those lines. Compare to the other tech trees to see how strong troops each level should approximately give. I've put some kind of levy unit in level one for most factions. That way the player is forced to invest not just 1 turn and a handful of florins to recruit good troops of a certain type in a settlement, but instead have to plan recruiting more carefully.

EDIT: I forgot to mention this first but my intention with the 4 level tree was that many provinces would already have level 1 available from start of campaign while level 2 would be available in one or two provinces per faction from start, or available to just start building. It would take time before level 2 would be possible to have in many of your provinces, and it'd take time before you could start producing your first level 3 troops. Also, level 2 troops should be so expensive that you might not be able to train them at start even if they are available. With that said, perhaps it's more clear what I meant.



Given that some spears were thrown one could also have a javelin skirmisher unit.


There are already javelineers for all factions in the tech trees.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Some loading screens, tell me if you like them. I specifically thought the loading screens should be free of soldiers fighting, showing just a calm natural view before battle like the marching soldiers saw on their way to battle before the manouvering and fighting begun. But if you prefer it we could use loading screens with fighting scenes created from ingame screenshots of the mod's units in action instead:

https://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y191/LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix/loading_screen_4.jpg

This picture is from close to the site where Battle of Hastings was fought

https://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y191/LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix/loading_screen_3.jpg

Village behind a snowy field...

https://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y191/LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix/loading_screen_1.jpg

A tree without leaves with a bird in it. Perhaps I should edit the bird to a crow or raven?

I also have a picture from Haithabu and one from Birka that I could use, what do you think?

It seems like there are problems with modding the quotes and logo too soon, but I'll try to make it work (it still hasn't after around 20 CTD that also forced me to restart the computer). Anyway, I found some good quotes from viking sagas and other viking-related writings and I think they'd look really good for the mod.

We also need a logo to put instead of the Rome:Total War logo on all the loading screens. The avatar is a cool logo but unfortunately won't work with transparency stuff. What I mean as a logo in this case is something square or circular shaped but adapted to having a sharp end, maybe a frame, and be used with transparency with an arbitrary picture behind it. Can you make one, skeletor? Maybe something with runes?

I also wonder if anyone could take the responsibility of making the faction icons. I'm not sure about any of them really. We got a nice khazar flag posted above, but apart from that I don't know which flags/icons the factions should have. The Danish white cross on red wasn't until the late crusading period, and did the Swedish really have their 3 crowns during the viking age or was it not until around 1100-1200 they got that symbol? Etc.

[skeletor]

~:cheers: Cool screens. Gives that calm look before battle. I think you should keep the bird as it is.

If you haven't read it already, this is a great description of the Anglo-saxon fyrd army's, and their reform after Alfred.. LINK (http://www.regia.org/fyrd2.htm)

Good reading :book:

-Skel-

[Rodion Romanovich]

Thanks, I'll read that tomorrow. I've worked too much on the modding for today... Too many CTD:s for my taste, I don't know if I sounded angry in any post above that I posted today but if so I'm sorry - it was because I was so tired...

Anyway I'd like you, The Apostate, to look at the Byzantine, Rus, French, Khazar and Bulgar tech trees and say what you think of them. For several reasons, among others that they were among the first I planned the tech trees for in my first tech tree suggestions, it'd be easiest to fix all the tech trees to become more historically accurate if I got feedback on those particular tech trees first.

[GoreBag]

Stats of berserkers and other unnerving troops could also be affected by giving them a "frightens infantry" ability.

That is an excellent idea.


I know of no evidence whatsoever for claymores in the viking era.

I believe Brian Boru wielded a claymore, and William Wallace after him, although Wallace is without the timeframe.

I agree, however, that they were uncommon. Perhaps they should be relegated to an elite unit, or family members only?

[The Apostate]

OK onto provinces/settlements:

IRELAND

Problem is that the nearest things to real towns in pre-Norman Ireland were the 5 viking foundations (Dublin, Limerick, Cork, Waterford and Wexford) none of which would be suitable for Irish faction provinces.

The island should probably be divided into 5 Irish (three of which might be rebels at the start) and one Norse province.

The five Irish provinces would be:

Meath/Tara - Irish Capital
Ulster/Armagh - Irish
Leinster/Ferns - Rebel
Munster/Cashel - Rebel
Connaught/Tuam - Rebel

Dublin/Dublin - Viking Rebel

The allocation of Meath and Ulster to the Irish reflects that these provinces were dominated by the Northern and Southern Branches of the O'Neills who held the high kingship until 1002 but that the O'Neill's always had difficulties exercising power over the other provinces.

RTW Tara is slightly too far south and I would move it northwards to make room for Dublin (which should have the smallest possible province).

On spellings I would stick to the Anglicised versions (which are at least pronounceable by non-Gaels) rather than the old Irish ones.


SCOTLAND

I would use the old kingdoms as provinces (there were 14 Pictish provinces but these are way too small)

Strathclyde/Dumbarton - Scottish or Welsh Rebel
Fortriu/Dunkeld - Scottish capital
Dalriada/Iona - Scottish
Orkney (includes Sutherland and Caithness)/Kirkwall - Norse Rebel or Norway
Lothian/Edinburgh - Saxon Rebel


WALES

Gywnedd/Bangor - Welsh capital
Deheubarth/Dinefwr (north of Swansea) - Welsh
Dyfed/St David's - Welsh

Can't see any room for Powys as there is a bloody great mountain on the RTW map where it should be and in any case it was absorbed by Gywnnedd in 855.

ENGLAND

Date is all important here as England (and for that matter Scotland as well) looked very different in 843 than in 871 or 911.

Using 911 as a baseline:

Wessex/Winchester - Saxon capital
Essex/London (move port east) - Saxon
Kent/Canterbury (if it will fit) - Saxon
Mercia/Chester - Saxon
East Anglia/Norwich - Viking Rebel
Northumbria/York - Viking Rebel

In 843 Mercia, East Anglia and Northumbria would all be Saxon Rebel

Haven't put in town sizes as these need a lot more thought

I am kind of divided myself on whether everywhere except Baghdad and Constantinople should start small - in which case you're stuck with crap units for decades - or whether there should be more large towns and minor cities at start but with much slower population growth than RTW - so you get reasonable level 2 and 3 units earlier but have to wait much longer for the level 4's.

In actuality there were virtually no towns of any size in Northern Europe anyway - but then settlement size in RTW is really just an indicator of province population.

Actual relative population sizes can be calculated fairly precisely thanks to the availability such documents as the Anglo-Saxon Burghal Hidage, the Norwegian Guthlalaw and various lists of Byzantine themata and their armies -the key is to establish a baseline.

Thoughts on Scandinavia to follow tomorrow.

[The Apostate]

Brian Boru and William Wallace wielding claymores - utter Hollywood (although with little Mel Gibson playing Wallace any sword would look like a Claymore).

Repeat - there is no evidence for anyone using two-handed swords in the British Isles before the 14th century.

Even the 1386 effigy of Ranald MacDonald at Iona which sometimes identifies him as having a claymore shows the sword belted at his waist - meaning that unless he was of Goliath-like proportions (in which case he would have like many other Gaelic chieftains had Mor added to his name) it cannot have been much more than 3'6" long.

Swords designed specifically to be used two-handed (rather than longswords with a grip that allowed it to be wielded with one or two hands like the Japanese katana) are a German invention that seems to have reached Ireland and Scotland via Scandinavia only in the late Middle Ages.

Whether they were ever very practical on the battlefield is highly questionable - such a long slashing weapon would not survive many encounters with armour or parrying weapons and needed much more room to wield effectively than a conventional sword and shield or a polearm.

In fact the reason they survived in Irish and Highland Scottish warfare long after they had been relegated to the use of executioners elsewhere in Europe was precisely because opponents were unlikely to be heavily armoured and battles were so small scale that heroes had room to use them.

In fact we know what Brian Boru (who was 73 years old) carried at Clontarf - a sword in one hand and a crucifix in the other - neither of which saved him from being ambushed and killed in the pursuit by a viking chieftain who had hidden in some trees and sprung out at him.

However more usually by this date he and other Irish chieftains would probably have been armed much like their viking allies and opponents with mailshirts and long axes.

Wallace may also have used an axe (Dence or Danish axes were still being used by Scots as late as 1544) but as a minor lowland laird was much more likely to have used one-handed sword, shield and spear.

[The Apostate]

From http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_euroedge.html (an excellent source on medieval weaponry):

Claymore

A term derived from the Gaelic claidheamohmor, meaning "great sword." It was first used to describe the large cross-hilted broadsword used in the Scottish Highlands and by Scottish mercenaries in Ireland from the late 15th to early 17 century. In its classic form, the claymore consisted of a straight, broad, double-edged blade, long, diamond-section quillions angling toward the blade and terminating in quatrefoils, a quillion block extending to form a long spur on each side, and a tubular section leather covered grip with wheel-shaped pommel. The blade was generally shorter than blades of Continental two-handed swords of the same period.

The claymore almost certainly developed from a late medieval cross-hilted sword that can be seen on some effigies and tomb slabs in the West Highlands and the Isles. The sword exhibited two of the characteristics found on the claymore, namely, the long, downward-angled quillions and the central part of the quillion block extending in a long spur. The dating of claymores is complex and imprecise, although there is a claymore of classic form depicted on a grave slab from Oronsay dated 1539. In the latter part of the 16th century, although retaining the characteristic form of quillion and blade, claymores sometimes had large spherical pommels.

A sword related to the claymore is known as the "lowland" form because of the fact that several examples came from southern Scotland. Lowland swords had angular, round-section qillions, the terminals arranged as turned knobs set at right angles; some have open rings affixed to the center of the quillions on each side. They retrained the feature of the quillion block extending to a spur on each side but unlike the claymore's, the spur was small and pointed. The pommels of these swords were large and spherical, the long tubular-section grips being of wood covered with leather. One form of the Lowland sword had quillions in the form of an arched cross, and in the center a solid oval plate bent down as an extra guard for the hands. Although Lowland swords have been dated to the second half of the 16th century and those with arched quillions and plates have been dated to the early 17th, little evidence is at present available that would lead to more precise dating.

Most of the blades of both the Highland and the Lowland claymores appear to be of German origin, whereas Scottish craftsmen made the hilts.

Several Scottish literary references indicate that the term "claymore" was applied by Gaelic speakers in the Highlands to both the old-fashioned, two-handed sword and the characteristic Scottish basket-hilted sword of the early 18th century.

[End Quote]

To which I would add that the first documentary evidence I can find for the claymore is in reference to the battle of Loch Lochy in 1544.

So however cool they are we can't have them.

Nuff said?

[The Apostate]

A quick thought on special standards or morale enhancing units that might be worth considering to add fanatical colour.

Chanting Celtic monks - these would appear in battles in Wales and Ireland to support their side just as their Druidic predecessors are supposed to have done - obviously should have no combat value whatsoever (at least one contingent of Welsh monks was slaughtered in battle by the English who obviously objected to their singing).

Odinic Raven Banners - several of these appear in Norse sagas where they were supposed to guarantee victory for the army but death for the standard-bearer - I visualise this as a very small but semi-indestructible unit of Berserkers whose presence can terrify the enemy.

The Labarum - a sacred Christian Banner allegedly first borne by Constantine the Great and which accompanied the emperor on major expeditions up to its loss at Manzikert - I visualise this with a small escort of super-elite tagmatic cataphracts.

(the True Cross was kept in Jerusalem and only recovered by the Crusaders in 1099 after which it served as a battle banner until its loss at Hattin but shouldn't really be available).

The Caroccio - big battle wagons containing a portable altar, relics and priests celebrating mass that were taken into battle by Italian citizen militias.

The Pope obviously should rate as a Caroccio all by himself if he goes into battle (which he does at least once at Civitate) - while on the subject I rather think the head of the Papal Roman faction should not in fact be the Pope but the Senator who up until the Cluniac Reforms actually ran the Papal State via puppet pontiffs - in which case the Pope is a special unit and not a general.

Recruiting these should be difficult or impossible - making them available only as irreplaceable starting units (possibly regenerating likle wardogs and generals if that is do-able) would give a boost in the early game when it's most needed and stop the AI from churning out dozens of them later on.

[GoreBag]

Brian Boru and William Wallace wielding claymores - utter Hollywood.

Well, I've read many a source not from Hollywood that say otherwise...


Whether they were ever very practical on the battlefield is highly questionable - such a long slashing weapon would not survive many encounters with armour or parrying weapons and needed much more room to wield effectively than a conventional sword and shield or a polearm.

They weren't. They often broke and the ends were usually taken to make one's doch.


In fact we know what Brian Boru (who was 73 years old) carried at Clontarf - a sword in one hand and a crucifix in the other - neither of which saved him from being ambushed and killed in the pursuit by a viking chieftain who had hidden in some trees and sprung out at him.

88, and he did carry the cross, yes, but when attacked by the viking party, he slew three of them with his great, honking, two-handed claymore.


Wallace may also have used an axe (Dence or Danish axes were still being used by Scots as late as 1544) but as a minor lowland laird was much more likely to have used one-handed sword, shield and spear.

Granted, it would have made more sense, but, apparently, he didn't. His was a claymore, albeit a smaller one than usual, if memory serves.

[skeletor]

I also wonder if anyone could take the responsibility of making the faction icons. I'm not sure about any of them really. We got a nice khazar flag posted above, but apart from that I don't know which flags/icons the factions should have. The Danish white cross on red wasn't until the late crusading period, and did the Swedish really have their 3 crowns during the viking age or was it not until around 1100-1200 they got that symbol? Etc.

I have looked in to this before, so after more research is done, i'll look into this.

Danish Cross: Acording to the legend, this flag fell from the sky in the Volmerbattle in 1219 ad.

Danmark allso have a weaponshield with 3 blue lions on gold background. I do't know how old it is, but i'll find out.....

Norwegian flag is inspierd by the Danish, and probably came mutch later.

Norwegian Lion with axe: This symbol is described as early as the 1200's, but it's probably older, i'll find out....

The Swedish 3 crowns is from 1343ad (Magnus Eriksons, rouled Norway, Sweden, and parts of Danmark (Skaane) for a short period of time.

My uncle is a historian, and heraldic, so i wil give him a call, and ask for hes opinion on the that mather. He probably allso know alot about most northeuropean weaponshields.


A quick thought on special standards or morale enhancing units that might be worth considering to add fanatical colour ect...

Most of this looks doable, i haven't tried yet, but as soon as i fiw my 3dsmax (trail period over :embarassed: ) i'll look into it. Does anyone know if siege engins can be used as standards :goofy:

-Skel-

[Rodion Romanovich]

My uncle is a historian, and heraldic, so i wil give him a call, and ask for hes opinion on the that mather. He probably allso know alot about most northeuropean weaponshields.


Nice!



Most of this looks doable, i haven't tried yet, but as soon as i fiw my 3dsmax (trail period over :embarassed: ) i'll look into it. Does anyone know if siege engins can be used as standards :goofy:

-Skel-

I think you can have the officer in a unit carry a cross or something other big. Apart from that there are special textures for the standards carried by someone in the middle of the unit.

BTW I object to singing units, they're a bit too exotic for my taste. Afaik singing troops weren't common to bring with viking raids and probably not very common in normal battles either?

@The Apostate: I wasn't talking about the Claymore, I was talking about swords in general when I said I was suprised when you said they were so unimportant at the time. Your posts above only answered the issue about Claymore but you never answered my questions if other swords were uncommon too.

Anyway, I'd still like it if you, The Apostate, put higher priority on checking the tech trees for Byzantines, Rus, French, Khazars and Bulgars than other researching for this mod right now, and come with comments for improvements for them. They were some of the first I planned last time so if I am to change the tech trees accordingly to research it would be easiest to start with them. Then we can proceed with viking and British tech trees and finally fix the remaning ones.

[Rodion Romanovich]

IRELAND

Problem is that the nearest things to real towns in pre-Norman Ireland were the 5 viking foundations (Dublin, Limerick, Cork, Waterford and Wexford) none of which would be suitable for Irish faction provinces.

The island should probably be divided into 5 Irish (three of which might be rebels at the start) and one Norse province.

The five Irish provinces would be:

Meath/Tara - Irish Capital
Ulster/Armagh - Irish
Leinster/Ferns - Rebel
Munster/Cashel - Rebel
Connaught/Tuam - Rebel

Dublin/Dublin - Viking Rebel

The allocation of Meath and Ulster to the Irish reflects that these provinces were dominated by the Northern and Southern Branches of the O'Neills who held the high kingship until 1002 but that the O'Neill's always had difficulties exercising power over the other provinces.

RTW Tara is slightly too far south and I would move it northwards to make room for Dublin (which should have the smallest possible province).

On spellings I would stick to the Anglicised versions (which are at least pronounceable by non-Gaels) rather than the old Irish ones.


Ok, sounds doable, except I don't know how the borders between Meath, Ulster and Dublin will be. Also I don't know where Ferns, Cashel and Tuam are located.

I personally prefer if the to use the local spellings of all provinces and cities when possible, it adds to the atmosphere. But I think all the other team members should come with their opinions on that first.



SCOTLAND

I would use the old kingdoms as provinces (there were 14 Pictish provinces but these are way too small)

Strathclyde/Dumbarton - Scottish or Welsh Rebel
Fortriu/Dunkeld - Scottish capital
Dalriada/Iona - Scottish
Orkney (includes Sutherland and Caithness)/Kirkwall - Norse Rebel or Norway
Lothian/Edinburgh - Saxon Rebel


Sounds doable, but Iona will have to be put on the mainland instead of the island due to technical issues. Also I don't know where Kirkwall and Dunkeld are located, and I lost the map where I saw where Dumbarton was located.



WALES

Gywnedd/Bangor - Welsh capital
Deheubarth/Dinefwr (north of Swansea) - Welsh
Dyfed/St David's - Welsh

Can't see any room for Powys as there is a bloody great mountain on the RTW map where it should be and in any case it was absorbed by Gywnnedd in 855.


Sounds very good and doable. Re the mountain that's no problem, as the entire campaign map is being remade with more realistic terrain for the time and so on. The R:TW map contains way too much impregnable forest and also too much normal forest, and too many mountains are impassable. Those things are subject to changes, and cities will be decided first and terrain afterwards so that no illegal positioning of impassable terrain is made where a city is supposed to be.



ENGLAND

Date is all important here as England (and for that matter Scotland as well) looked very different in 843 than in 871 or 911.

Using 911 as a baseline:

Wessex/Winchester - Saxon capital
Essex/London (move port east) - Saxon
Kent/Canterbury (if it will fit) - Saxon
Mercia/Chester - Saxon
East Anglia/Norwich - Viking Rebel
Northumbria/York - Viking Rebel

In 843 Mercia, East Anglia and Northumbria would all be Saxon Rebel


Sounds doable and good from the gameplay issue too. However at least one province on the English east coast must be Danish rather than rebel-owned. I think the one I had in mind was York, any comments on that?



In actuality there were virtually no towns of any size in Northern Europe anyway - but then settlement size in RTW is really just an indicator of province population.


Yes, it's supposed to reflect province population more than city population, but also be weighed somewhat with city population too because of the squalor code. As I see it, some compromise with using the real city population but have it affected by the situation in the surrounding province is the best implementation.



Actual relative population sizes can be calculated fairly precisely thanks to the availability such documents as the Anglo-Saxon Burghal Hidage, the Norwegian Guthlalaw and various lists of Byzantine themata and their armies -the key is to establish a baseline.


Nice.

If the populations for reaching certain city levels is hardcoded we might have to multiply all city populations with either a certain factor or if necessary with an exponential or logarithmic function. I.e. - if it's too low in all cases we multiply all by the same number but if it's too low for small settlements and too high for larger we multiply the lower values with a greater number than we multiply the higher values with and so on...

[skeletor]

I think you can have the officer in a unit carry a cross or something other big. Apart from that there are special textures for the standards carried by someone in the middle of the unit.

You can have 3 "men" following your unit, an officer, standard, and musician. I could replace the musician with a ram model/texture if possible, and remoddeled it to become a wagon with a relic, or true cross, and have them added to a unique Papal unit.

I could allso try remoddeling the scorpion in to wagon with a relic/cross, with a crew draging it around.


I personally prefer if the to use the local spellings of all provinces and cities when possible, it adds to the atmosphere. But I think all the other team members should come with their opinions on that first.

Local spelling sounds good ~:cheers:

-Skel-

[ScionTheWorm]

Hi there

I have been thinking about creating a similar mod myself called "Battles in the North", but hell your concept and research is far beyond what I could have done alone. I would really like to join your team as a skinner, making faction icons and other graphics. Of course only if you don't have people to do this already.

If you could give me an assignment (skin a model from a picture or something) I could post my work and you could decide wether I'm good enough or not.

[skeletor]

Hey ScionTheWorm.

This is not up to me, but i guess skinners/modellers are allways welcome.
I'll pm you.

-Skel-

[Rodion Romanovich]

You can have 3 "men" following your unit, an officer, standard, and musician. I could replace the musician with a ram model/texture if possible, and remoddeled it to become a wagon with a relic, or true cross, and have them added to a unique Papal unit.

I could allso try remoddeling the scorpion in to wagon with a relic/cross, with a crew draging it around.


I heard some other mod tried that but it didn't work... If one man in the unit has a cart then the entire unit must have it, or something like that. I'd say we could skip the true cross and the other singing units. True cross also wasn't recovered until around 1100 AD.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Hi there

I have been thinking about creating a similar mod myself called "Battles in the North", but hell your concept and research is far beyond what I could have done alone. I would really like to join your team as a skinner, making faction icons and other graphics. Of course only if you don't have people to do this already.

If you could give me an assignment (skin a model from a picture or something) I could post my work and you could decide wether I'm good enough or not.

If you know how to skin and do good realistic-looking skins then you're welcome to join. We're also working on the faction symbols at the moment so if you could help with them that'd be great.

Some news on faction symbols: those in menus and buttons etc. have to be circular, the game automatically cuts away other parts of them. Banners for battles can however have non-circular shapes on the actual faction symbol on it.

[GoreBag]

Sounds doable and good from the gameplay issue too. However at least one province on the English east coast must be Danish rather than rebel-owned. I think the one I had in mind was York, any comments on that?

Jörkvik would be cool, I think, but I don't know anything about its timeline, so I don't know if it's entirely appropriate or not. It has my support, though.

Local spellings are also a good idea.

Swords were less common than axes or spears. I only brought up the Claymore to not leave exclusive sword use to Swabians.


I have been thinking about creating a similar mod myself called "Battles in the North", but hell your concept and research is far beyond what I could have done alone.

Immortal much? ~D

[The Apostate]

Having done some quick research I think I understand the sources of your misapprehension.

The myth of Wallace as a giant of a man wielding a huge claymore actually comes from one of the earliest examples of Scottish mania for inventing traditions (for which generally see the famous article by Hugh Trevor-Roper in the Invention of Tradition ed. Eric Hobsbawm - I did see this in full on the web a while ago so you can probably find it with google).

'The Sword of William Wallace' which is in Stirling's Wallace Monument (and apparently visiting New York at the moment) cannot be the great man's sword as it is clearly a claymore or two-handed greatsword of a sort that did not enter Scotland until around 1500.

In fact it's existence is only attested from 1505 when James IV paid to have it given a hilt and it is obviously a bogus relic created by James or his advisers as part of his programme of fostering anti-English sentiment.

At the same time princes all over Europe were engaged in similarly bogus projects (another is the 'Arthur's Round Table' commissioned by Henry VIII and hung in Winchester).

As for Brian Boru I have checked the contemporary accounts of Clontarf in the Annals of Innisfallen, the Annals of Ulster, the Annals of Loch Ce, MacCarthaigh's Book and the Chronicon Scotorum and not one has the details about Brian's death in the tent where he manages to take down three Danes first (an improbable feat for a man variously described as 72, 73 and 88 years old - particularly if he was using a 6' long sword to do it).

As Njals' Saga also doesn't have it, I presume this story actually comes from the later Cogadh Gaedhel re Gallaibh (the one source which I don't have access to) and which is universally regarded by modern Irish historians as 'largely fictional' (e.g. Roger Collins Early Medieval Europe 300-1000)

If the Cogadh contains a reference to Brian wielding a claidheamh mor (and I will check it next time I'm in the library) then this would simply be a poetic expression for a long viking-style one handed sword (as opposed to the short leaf-bladed swords used by pre-viking Irishmen) and not a reference to a weapon that did not feature in Irish warfare for another 500 years.

Anyway I should have been using this time to look at provinces and settlements so can we close this argument down?

If you genuinely want more details PM me.

[The Apostate]

Back to provs/setts

Ireland:

Check any modern map of Ireland for Ferns, Cashel and Tuam (Tuam is inland on the west north of Galway, Ferns is inland south of Dublin and north of Wexford, Cashel is inland to the west of Ferns and north of Waterford.

Their ports should probably all be aligned south while Dublin, Armagh and Tara's are east-ward aligned

There is a sketchmap showing povince boundaries at http://www.ibiblio.org/gaelic/fifths.gif

Dublin should just have the smallest province around the city the map will allow you taken out of Leinster and Meath.

Scotland

I actually chose Iona in preference to Dunadd which is the older centre of the kingdom of Dalriada and is on the mainland - either will do:

see http://www.travels-in-time.net/e/scotland15arteng.htm for location

Dumbarton is just north of Glasgow.

http://www.scottishmaritimemuseum.org/images/scotland.gif

Unfortunately at RTW scale it's rather close to Dunadd, Edinburgh and Dunkeld so you may have to fudge them a bit.

Wales

The mountain is Snowdon and should really be rather further west than in RTW - although that would then impinge on Bangor on the coast - personally would drop Powys as three provinces seem more than enough for Wales and it ceased to an independent kingdom at the start of our period.

England

Both East Anglia and Northumbria fell to the Danish Great Army in the 860's so either or both could be Danish (although they were certainly not ruled from Denmark which was itself disunited until Harald Bluetooth's reign in the mid-900's).

As Dublin and York were ruled by independant kings - some of whom were actually Norwegians like Erik Bloodaxe - East Anglia (which was together with the 5 boroughs of the east Midlands knowns as the Danelaw due to the high level of Danish settlement) is probably a better bet for a Danish province.

However I rather feel that this will make the Danes a too powerful faction - although OTOH it might be difficult to get the AI to send armies overseas without an English province (for the same reason York or Dublin might have to be given to the Norwegians).

On population sizes although we don't have any censuses giving actual numbers we do know how many ships, fyrdmen or thematic soldiers some faction's provinces supplied - so a relative scale could be built using historical data.

The baseline is really a decision on how big the biggest starting towns for each faction should be.

e.g. if Constantinople and Baghdad start as large cities, then the next level down would be represented as minor cities like Cordoba, Rome, Cairo, Tunis etc

This would make the biggest Frankish, Viking, Celtic etc settlements no larger than large towns and most would be towns or villages.

However this is bound up with the tech trees - my own preference would be for larger starting settlements so factions can have armies that are more representative of reality and to tackle the over-production of elite units by ZOR limitations and making them expensive and slow to train.

However if the population increase rates are hard-coded this will be problematic - although we can presumably get rid of all the population increasing buildings like fertility temples and farms.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Ok nice I think East Anglia is good for a Danish province.

@ALL: I've been forced to change the factions conversion list to this due to crappy hardcoded limits. Apparently culture penalty culture is hardcoded so this is how we'll need to do it instead:

CATHOLIC1
romans_julii -> Holy roman empire
romans_brutii -> Lotharingia
romans_scipii -> France
romans_senate -> Papal states

CATHOLIC2
gauls -> Asturia
germans -> Normans
britons -> Saxons
dacia -> Welsh
scythia -> Scots
spain -> Irish

ORTHODOX
parthia -> Byzantines
pontus -> Bulgars
armenia -> Rus

MUSLIM
carthage -> Al Andalus
numidia -> Abbassids

JEWISH
egypt -> Khazars

PAGAN
seleucid -> Norway
greek_cities -> Sweden
macedon -> Denmark
thrace -> Magyars

slave

Note that faciton colors are moddable so don't adapt skins to the colors these factions have in vanilla R:TW now! We can decide RGB values for each faction as soon as we've designed the faction symbols.

[GoreBag]

Ach. I was about to ask about whether or not a culture's religion could be controlled, similar to the arrival of the Portuguese in Shogun. If the religions are being used to organize Culture and its penalties, then I guess this is out of the question.

[The Apostate]

Languages:

Do we go down the Europa Barbarorum route of trying to call everything by whatever names the natives used at the time, do we use standard modern Anglicisations - or do we attempt some messy compromise.

At least for version 1.0 I am for modern standard Anglicisations throughout (i.e. the Byzantines, Constantinople, Germans, London and not Rhomaios, Konstantinopolis, Deutsch and Lunden).

In justification I would plead time constraints - I do not have the resources or linguistic skills to look up Old French etc lexicons and the fact is that a lot of provinces changed hands in the era.

e.g. York was only Jorvik for less than a century before reverting to Eoforwic and many of the Med provinces changed hands from Byzantine to Arab and back again (and do I want to look up the 9th century Arabic and 10th century Greek for Crete? - no I don't).

If we were a big multilingual team it might be feasible but we're not.

Ireland is maybe a special case - as a non-Gaelic speaker I am happier with Munster, Connaught, Meath, Leinster and Ulster as at least I can pronounce them - however the standard names used by Irish historians for pre-Norman provinces are now usually Mumu, Connacht, Mide, Laigin and Ulaid.

However even they tend to use modern Anglicised spellings for towns - so in fact it is more consistent to use Anglicisations throughout.

Irish (and for that matter French, German and Byzantine) personal names are another can of worms we'll have to open at some point.

[The Apostate]

Rus are pagan until 988.

They were also far more culturally aligned to Scandinavia than to the Byzantines before the conversion

How about swapping Byzantium with the Khazars to be the standalone Egyptian faction?

Despite religious differences Khazars, Magyars and Bulgars had far more in common as steppe nomads with each other than they had with the other factions you group them with - and so should be the three eastern factions (which I'd rename Steppe Peoples or something along those lines).

Come to think of it another negative effect of making the Bulgars Orthodox is that the Byzantines will be able to assimilate them more quickly whereas in fact they revolted frequently after the conquest.

Rus, Denmark, Norway and Sweden should then have the four Greek slots (Viking or Norse might be a reasonable culture name).

Will this work with the religious building tech tree? - if RTW eastern factions all worship completely different deities I can't see why the Bulgars can't have churches, the Khazars synagogues and the Magyars shamanic circles or whatever they had.

[The Apostate]

Also it's not really valid to distinguish Catholic from Orthodox til the great Schism of 1053.

Sure the western church used Latin and the eastern Greek, but the real doctrinal and organisational differences only solidified after the Hildebrandine Reforms of the 11th century

By asserting that the Pope's primacy was more than just nominal and that he had rights to dictate dogma and appoint bishops even in the other patriarchates of the Church, the reforms made it inevitable that that the eastern churches would reject his authority.

'Greek' and 'Latin' would probably be better cultural descriptions (in fact Latin was the generic Byzantine term for westerners irrespective of whether they spoke a latin-derived language or not).

Of course in game terms it will make no difference whatsoever....

[The Apostate]

Given that the XP will at the very least offer different faction slots (although from what I've seen so far there may be even less than RTW) should we even be making the slot allocation decisions now?

In any case we are hardly going to get a version out before the XP so should we be focusing on things like units, skins and the map that are unlikely to be changed by the XP?

I wonder how other mods are dealing with this issue?

[skeletor]

Some unit's:

http://img166.echo.cx/img166/3695/daneswordlandownershird4dt.png
Dane sword hird

http://img166.echo.cx/img166/683/axe15mc.png
Swordman with axe

These are wip's

-Skel-

[Rodion Romanovich]

@The Apostate: We must make the allocations now because it's used in most campaign map related coding etc. and also for units. I'm not sure it'll take longer than the xp for us to finish this mod either, we're doing good progress and we've now got plenty of skinners. I'll get the campaign map quite fast once I've recieved all the research.

If you think local spelling is too hard to find, then we could stick to English spelling for province and settlement names. However I think all units should have local names, i.e. kataphraktoi instead of cataphracts. That also makes sense - the settlements changed hands and therefore name/spelling to that of another culture, whereas the units recruitable by only a certain faction would keep a name of the same culture.

Re the faction conversion list I'll have a look at it again. You're right that the new system doesn't make sense, I tried to convert the old plan into a new one with the restrictions included, but it turned out to end up quite strange. Now I've tried to make a new one. Since we're abandoning religion-related names for most of them I'd like to abandon religion-related names for the rest of them too in order to not get a strange mix. A new suggestion could be:

FRANKISH
romans_julii -> Holy roman empire
romans_brutii -> Lotharingia
romans_scipii -> France
romans_senate -> Papal states

NORTHERN (better name needed...)
gauls -> Asturia
germans -> Normans
britons -> Saxons
dacia -> Welsh
scythia -> Scots
spain -> Irish

STEPPE PEOPLE (the name shouldn't be a noun so "Steppe people" can't really be used - feel free to come up with better suggestions, perhaps "eastern" although I don't like that name for it, it doesn't show it's steppe related peoples. How about "turkish"? Didn't they all originate from turkish tribes?)
parthia -> Khazars
pontus -> Bulgars
armenia -> Magyars

ARABIC (changed to arabic because I didn't want to use religious-related culture names)
carthage -> Al Andalus
numidia -> Abbassids

GREEK
egypt -> Byzantines

NORSE
seleucid -> Norway
greek_cities -> Sweden
macedon -> Denmark
thrace -> Rus

slave

[Rodion Romanovich]

@skeletor: Nice! I love seeing those vikings kicking the asses of carthaginians ~D

BTW have we agreed on a final unit list for any faction at all? Just worried so that noone does any work that won't be used in the release version of the mod...

@The Apostate: Like I said before I think it would be good if you had a look at the tech trees for Byzantines, French, Bulgars and Khazars as soon as possible, so that I can get a good starting point for fixing all the tech trees afterwards. I think you should put higher priority on that than over the province list because if we don't get a few unit roosters for some of the factions ready a lot of unit skinning might be thrown away if we change the lists so those units aren't included.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Any progress on the faction symbols? I've searched a lot but haven't found anything. So if it seems impossible to find anything I suggest we use the same symbols as in M:TW for the factions that are included in both M:TW and this mod, or use nearby M:TW factions (for example Italians -> Lotharingia, Spain -> Asturia).

Remaining factions are: Normans, Bulgars, Al Andalus, Abbassids, Khazars (we did however here recieve a concept flag), Norway, Sweden. I reckon we should put high priority on finding faction symbols because they'll determine faction colors, and faction colors will determine how skins will look.

[skeletor]

BTW have we agreed on a final unit list for any faction at all? Just worried so that noone does any work that won't be used in the release version of the mod...

I have made 2 finished models of swordmen and axemen (those in the pic's) and i have a spearman underway. With altering the alpha on these, they can be used for all Norse factions (both the big noseguards for the Northern, and maybe some Frankish, and the googled helmet for the Norse, and some Northern. Allso alter the Shape of the shield from round, to the Frankish drop shape.)

The spearman have all of hes face covered, and can therefor be used as everything from basic spearunit, to mounted Frankish knight.
(this needs some testing.)

Changing the shape of axes (the shaft of the viking's axe is a bit bent), lenth of spears/swords, and size of shield only takes a cuple of minutes. So that can easly be done upon request.

All clouth, shield marks, faces, and type of arnmour is done by skinning, so that can be changed rather fast.

Example: If i make a heavy axeman for Sweden, it only needs some colorchange here and there, and a new shieldtexture, and you have one for the Danes too. If you allso change the alpha for the shield and noseguard, the Normands get one. So now i'm making standard skins, that can be alterd to fit the various factions when the finished list comes out.

Conclution:

- We now have models for singlehand axemen and swordmen for Norse/Northern/Frankish unit's.

- We have skins for light singlehand axemen and swordmen for the Norse factions.

- Basic skins for light singlehand axemen and swordmen for Northern factions will be finished this weekend

- basic skins for Heavy singlehand axemen and swordmen for Northern/Norse will allso be finished this weekend.

- I have a spearman allmost ready, but it might be scrapet due to some problems. If not, we have the model for a spearman that can be used for all factions, both of foot and mounted.

We allso need to dicuss the faction colors. Due to the fact that usually all armys during this time were gatherd from various family's(ætt's) or counts, and therefor the armys wold look very colorfull, with all kinds of shieldmarks.

We should ofcourse give them some standard color in the clothing for the player to se the diffrence.

-Skel-

[skeletor]

Any progress on the faction symbols? I've searched a lot but haven't found anything. So if it seems impossible to find anything I suggest we use the same symbols as in M:TW for the factions that are included in both M:TW and this mod, or use nearby M:TW factions (for example Italians -> Lotharingia, Spain -> Asturia).

Remaining factions are: Normans, Bulgars, Al Andalus, Abbassids, Khazars (we did however here recieve a concept flag), Norway, Sweden. I reckon we should put high priority on finding faction symbols because they'll determine faction colors, and faction colors will determine how skins will look.

I think we could use this old Norwegian lion with an axe for norway
http://www.forskning.no/Bilder/1021377828.96/1021377828.96_content.JPG

Norway: faction colors: dark red/yellow

For the Swedes, i have seen some old heraldics with a black deerhead on yellow background. But the color of the leading ætt later on were a gold lion on blue background. So i wold sugest:

Sweden: Yellow/blue/black. (some black/yellow, and some yellow/blue shields ect.)

Bulgar: I think we could use their lion:
http://tangra.bitex.com/images/flags/gerb.jpg
http://www.flags.net/images/largeflags/BULG0007.GIF

Or the twoheaded eagle like the albanian
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/flags/al-lgflag.gif

With color: silver/purple (silver on purple background)


SAXONS:

Some ideas of saxon factionmarks

http://www.london.org.uk/ad32.gif

http://www.trin.cam.ac.uk/sdk13/helmetsmall.JPG

SCOTS:

http://vandyck.anu.edu.au/introduction/charlemagne/L32-14b.jpg

http://www.kiltsandbagpipes.co.uk/art%20pics/no2%20br.jpg

http://celticcrosses.net/club_images/items/sr_ortak_P170.jpg

http://celticcrosses.net/club_images/items/80x80/sr_ortak_B121.jpg



Will be edited....

[Rodion Romanovich]

Due to the fact that usually all armys during this time were gatherd from various family's(ætt's) or counts, and therefor the armys wold look very colorfull, with all kinds of shieldmarks.

We should ofcourse give them some standard color in the clothing for the player to se the diffrence.

I think we should use same color for practical reasons so they are distinguishable. However I think R:TW has too sharp coloring of the units - I'd like just a small trace of the faction color in the skins unless in the cases where the units were really colorful in reality, which was probably true for the richer knights and so on while the poorer probably had more grey, off-white and brown I can imagine... But The Apostate probably knows more about that than I do.

Nice that you've made so much progress. I've had plenty of errors with my modding so I don't know when I'll have the map ready. At least I've gotten quite far with the image files needed for the campaign map and that's the majority of the work. The errors are, as I've understood it, probably something specific for my computer.

Those faction symbols look great btw! Re faction colors there needs to be one primary and one secondary, where the primary will be the most important and the one that will be associated with the faction. A third color is not necessary but if needed can be used for skins. However I suggest skins are made to look realistical first, then a small hint of the primary faction color is added. What do you think of that idea?

[Rodion Romanovich]

Damn I realized it'll be hard to use English names for all provinces. After all, are there really any English names for provinces like Hologaland, Hordaland, Waestrogothia, Hafrsfjord etc. etc.? Perhaps we'll need a mix of old local spelling and English after all? Then we might as well choose to use local spelling for as much as possible, and use English spelling for those that there aren't anyone willing to put time into finding local names for.

[GoreBag]

Damn I realized it'll be hard to use English names for all provinces. After all, are there really any English names for provinces like Hologaland, Hordaland, Waestrogothia, Hafrsfjord etc. etc.? Perhaps we'll need a mix of old local spelling and English after all? Then we might as well choose to use local spelling for as much as possible, and use English spelling for those that there aren't anyone willing to put time into finding local names for.

Translate them from their original meanings, maybe?

[skeletor]

The spearman worked, so here is a early saxon spearman of the fyrd.

See, read beads :kiss2:

http://img166.echo.cx/img166/4750/saxon26dr.png

One of the endless clashes between the Saxon Fyrd, and Danes raidingroups. :charge:
http://img166.echo.cx/img166/3016/saxondane2id.png






Btw, Could we get a private forum to get some control? This topic is kind of messy, and it's hard to see what's being done... please


-Skel-

[Rodion Romanovich]

Wow units again! I really like the fyrdmen, pretty much exactly what I wanted.

Re private forum I'll pm the people I think control those things and ask them if we can get a board here. Otherwise I'll look for free boards elsewhere.

[skeletor]

Wow units again! I really like the fyrdmen, pretty much exactly what I wanted.

Re private forum I'll pm the people I think control those things and ask them if we can get a board here. Otherwise I'll look for free boards elsewhere.

Thnx, more will come after the weekend, if i'm not to happy ~:cheers:

If you have any requests, or sugestions to changes on the skins, feel free to post them. Its hard comming up with all the patterns and stuff all by myself.

NB - new sugestions to Saxon and Scot factionsymbols posted over.

-Skel-

[Rodion Romanovich]

If you have any requests, or sugestions to changes on the skins, feel free to post them. Its hard comming up with all the patterns and stuff all by myself.

Ok, one question actually. I believe you have used the "untrained" attribute for most units so far, right? Well, I think we should used the "trained" attribute for the better units such as the huskarles and perhaps also the hird, because I believe that's necessary in order to make the unit for a tight-looking shield wall. Perhaps those units should also have a slightly larger shield? For the fyrd and lighter axe and sword infantry I think you should keep things as they are.

[skeletor]

Ok, one question actually. I believe you have used the "untrained" attribute for most units so far, right? Well, I think we should used the "trained" attribute for the better units such as the huskarles and perhaps also the hird, because I believe that's necessary in order to make the unit for a tight-looking shield wall. Perhaps those units should also have a slightly larger shield? For the fyrd and lighter axe and sword infantry I think you should keep things as they are.

Trained/untrained: The unit's you see in the picture are just modells, and skins. I haven't edited the atributes for them yet. (no time) The unit's sofar have the abilitys of their original modells (briton_swordman & roman triarii)
They can later be given stats, atributes, and special ability's.

I have planned to give them larger shields. Specially the later unit's. My plan is to give the Northern factions other shields for the later units (upsidedown drop shape). There is however some limitations when the shieldt get too large for some unit's, when the weapons penitrate the shields aso. But some of this can be worked around..

http://www.mackenziesmith.com/assets/images/kite_shield_180.JPG

-Skel-

[The Apostate]

OK - Byzantine units (heavily revised)

BACKGROUND

Byzantine armies of the 9th century had two main elements.

Each province or theme had what was effectively a semi-feudal militia or thematic army commanded by a strategos or general.

These themata were the first line of defense against the more or less permanent raids from the Arabs, Slavs and Bulgars.

The emperor himself had a central field army based at Constantinople called the tagmata which was typically used only in major punitive expeditions and against invasions too powerful for the local strategoi to deal with.

After a long period on the defensive, a series of able soldier emperors passed over onto the strategic offensive in the 10th century and actually began to win back significant territory on all fronts.

As the bulk of the Byzantine army was a local militia organised for mobile defence and which could not be easily transferred to new frontier themes far from their homes, this posed new problems and necessitated a series of reforms which are still imperfectly understood.

However we do seem to see an increase in the size of the tagmata and the introduction of new units like the klibanophoroi as well as increasing neglect of the thematic armies - many of whose soldiers land-holdings were swallowed up by the aristocracy.

We also see a growing reliance on mercenaries such as the Varangian guard, Norman and German cavalry and horse archers recruited from a variety of tribes - some of whom were actually settled in the empire in exchange for their services.

By Manzikert in 1071 much of the themata appear to have gone and been replaced by an expanded tagmata, mercenaries and by contingents raised by the great landlords (these were probably similar to the old themata but even less well armed and trained and loyal to the landlord rather than the empire).

This is often described as representing a disastrous decline - however this is based upon the traditional over-valuation of thematic troops, who were part-timers whose major role was to chase fast-moving raiders, and thus would have been far less effective in battle than the professionals of the tagmata and the better mercenary units.

With the destruction of the tagmata at Manzikert and its aftermath, much of the aristocracy went into revolt as did many of the surviving mercenaries (in fact for several years there was a state based around Ancyra ruled by teh Norman Roussel de Balliol).

How all these troops were armed is not as clear as it was once thought to be.

The assumption which is stil reflected in many wargamers army lists was that the highly trained units of the old East Roman field army which we know very well from Procopius and Maurice were settled on the land as themata but continued to operate much as they had in the sixth century.

This would have meant the themata were predominantly heavily armoured kataphraktoi with both bow and lance and that there were also armoured units of heavy infantry (skutatoi) and light infantry (psiloi).

However the level of training and equipment required by kataphraktoi makes it unlikely that many thematic cavalry were as well armed or trained as their 6th century predecessors and they were clearly far less effective in battle.

For instance by the 10th century manuals attributed to the emperors Leo VI and Nikephoros Phokas it is clear that three out of the standard five rank deep cavalry formation had lances and two ranks had bows as it was a waste of time trying to train part-time soldiers to use both.

(Which is just well as RTW won't let you have both in one unit anyway).

The themata's primary role was also to chase lightly armed raiders in often rough terrain which makes it unlikely that they wore full armour so in RTW terms they are probably light rather than heavy cavalry.

Similarly as Nikephoras Phokas had to reform the infantry to produce units able to hold their own in open battle, it was likely that thematic infantry were light troops whose primary role was to garrison forts and skirmish in rough terrain.

Tagmatic units however were far more heavily armed, at least semi-professional and may have included heavy infantry in at least the later 10th century.

Modelling the themata-tagmata distinction is however difficult and rather pointless in RTW terms as both players and AI will tend to recruit the best unit a settlement can produce.

It would also create a Byzantine unit roster so large that it could not be realistically presented on the battlefield.

What follows is therefore simplified.

BARRACKS
Town Watch: (still looking for the Greek term), light inf, short spear, no armour, helmet, shield, low morale = Roman Town Watch

MILITIA BARRACKS (how about town barracks?)
Peltastoi: light inf, long spear, bambakion (a quilted knee length cotton coat), helmet, large oval shield, short axe, medium morale, phalanx, = German Spear Warband or Libyphoenician Spearmen.

CITY BARRACKS
Skutatoi: heavy inf, long spear, lamellar cuirass, helmet, large oval shield, long sword, medium morale, phalanx = Poeni Infantry or Hoplites, 2-turn build?

ARMY BARRACKS
Menavlatoi: heavy inf, pilum (but carry fewer than Roman units), lamellar cuirass, pteruges, splinted greaves and vambraces, helmet, large oval shield, long sword, high morale, no phalanx = Principes or Early Legionary (but better protected), 2 turn-build

URBAN BARRACKS
Varangians: heavy inf, 2-handed axe, knee and elbow length mailcoat, gilded helmet, splinted greaves and vambraces, scarlet cloak, long sword, very high morale = Praetorian (but not urban cohort). 3 turn-build.

(strictly speaking Varangians should be mercenaries but need to restrict availability to late campaign and to Byzantines outweighs this).


PRACTICE RANGE
1. Psiloi Javelin (will check the Greek): light inf, javelin, one handed axe, no armour, small round shield, low morale = Eastern or Greek Peltasts

2. Psiloi Slinger: light inf, sling, one handed axe, no armour, small round shield, low morale = Eastern Slinger

ARCHERY RANGE
Psiloi Archer: light inf, bow, one handed axe, no armour, small round shield, low morale = Eastern or Greek Archer

CATAPULT RANGE
1. Skutatoi Archer (name is wrong - covers armoured archers attached to skutatoi units): heavy inf, bow, longsword, lamellar cuirass, helmet, small round shield, medium morale = Roman Auxilary Archers

2. Toxoballista = Roman Ballista

3. Manganika = Roman Onager

SIEGE ENGINEER
1. Spendones = Heavy Onager

2. Greek Fire Syphon (will check Greek term) recent reconstructions suggest this was like a modern flamethrower throwing a continuous stream of fire and thus could be a modified ballista firing very short range but devastating fireballs on a flat trajectory. It would be even better if we could somehow introduce a risk of it exploding and killing everyone in the vicinity....

STABLES
Trapezitoi: light cav, lance, no armour, helmet, large round shield, long sword, medium morale = Macedonian Lancers but less effective charge

CAVALRY STABLES
Sagittoi (need to check Greek): light cav, bow, lamellar cuirass, helmet, small round shield, long sword, medium morale = Eastern Horse archers buit less effective with bow and better in melee.

ELITE STABLES
Kataphraktoi: heavy cav, lance, knee-and-elbow length mailcoat, helmet, medium round shield, long sword, high morale = less well armoured version of Eastern Cataphract with less effective charge

(note thematic kataphraktoi would generally have worn less armour and tagmatic kataphraktoi more as did those who formed the first rank - this unit therefore represents a compromise with the worst-armoured kataphraktoi being covered by trapezitoi and the best by klibanophoroi)

ROYAL STABLES/HIPPODROME
Klibanophoroi: heavy cav, lance, mailcoat, splinted greaves and vambraces, helmet with veil-like mail face mask, mace, armoured horses, very high morale = Eastern Cataphract with less effective charge but greater staying power in melee.

Note: top level Byzantine stables should allow Races to be celebrated.
Arenas had however all been closed down centuries before.

GENERAL'S BODYGUARDS
These would have generally been kataphraktoi rather than klibanophoroi but with additions like scarlet cloaks, gilded helmets etc and maybe partial horse armour covering the horse's head and chest.

Almost all Byzantine helmets except the klibanophoroi's were open-faced.

Byzantines should be coloured like modern Greeks or Italians with short dark beards and moustaches. Varangians of course should be blonde and may have used Norman-style helmets with nasals.

[skeletor]

:book:

Wow Apostate, that is some serious research, thnx.


Varangians would in my view be a unit only recruitable as mercenaries in Constantinople - as you should not be able to recruit large numbers and they should be hard to replace - obviously they'd have two handed axes, long mailcoats splinted vambraces and greaves, gilded helmets and possibly scarlet cloaks (although these may not have been worn in battle they would look cool). would in my view be a unit only recruitable as mercenaries in Constantinople - as you should not be able to recruit large numbers and they should be hard to replace - obviously they'd have two handed axes, long mailcoats splinted vambraces and greaves, gilded helmets and possibly scarlet cloaks (although these may not have been worn in battle they would look cool).

I really hope this can be done.. The Varangians is probably one of my favorites, and will look awsome whatever...



There is limited evidence for Greek Fire siphon projectors being employed in land battles but can't see where we can fit these into the tech tree even if we could manage a flame thrower animation.

This might be doable with a edited onager with larger fireball, and shorter range.


About mercearies, i think it wold be cool to have the byzantine empire depended on mercs. Atleast in the beginning, give them only poor, or too expensive units to recruit, and a really good celection off reliable bercs from both north, east and west.

-Skel-

[The Apostate]

On Byz. mercs they should be significantly but not totally dependant on them.

Although the manuals give the impression that their armies were all native actual battle descriptions show mercs as way more important.

One reason Byzantine archery declined for instance was probably the easy availability of large numbers of mercenary horse archers who were considerably better than anything they could produce themselves.

(even in the 6th century which was in many respects the high point of Byzantium militarily, Hun mercenaries play a suspiciously prominent role in almost every major battle).

As I've said before I personally feel Byzantine armies are massively over-rated - primarily because they are the only culture to have left detailed military manuals - but if they were so good why did they lose most of their battles?

My solution would be to make all native Byz units harder and more expensive to recruit than western or muslim units of the same level.

Build times of 2 or 3 turns for the tagmatic units would not be at all out of place.

ZoR should also make it hard or impossible for them to recruit decent units in conquered territories (as this evidently was a problem) - so the further they expand away from the core the more they'll need mercenaries.

The one new conquest which did produce high quality troops was Armenia which should be made particularly revolt-prone as the Armenian princes and church never accepted Byzantine overlorship.

The same should apply to the Slav provinces in the west.

Also other than Constantinople Byz towns should be seriously underdeveloped - one of the major new insights of recent scholarship is that to a large extent 8th and 9th century Byzantium was actually a one-city state, where the once flourishing towns and cities of Asia Minor and the Balkans were all seriously depopulated and often reduced to no more than forts.

Thus if Constantinople starts as a small city, I would make Thessalonica the only large town and everywhere else just towns or villages.

This would put the Byzantines in the same position as in early era MTW where they have a potentially great army but can only recruit one (or fewer)decent unit per turn.

Their starting field army should also include a bunch of mercenary units to get players used to using them (and to soak up some of their revenue and stop them from going into a rapid build strategy).

They should also start off at war with the Bulgars, Abbassids and Russians (but allied with the Khazars).

[The Apostate]

Some Byzantine sources:

You probably know the Ian Heath/Angus MacBride Osprey Byzantine Armies 886-1118 - which is actually very cheap if you hunt around (just bought a new one for £5.85) and has the best colour plates.

I don't have the rather similar looking Men-at-Arms book Romano-Byzantine Armies 4th-9th centuries by David Nicolle but it's probably worth a look.

Ian Heath's Armies of the Dark Ages for is indispensable for every faction in our mod but long out of print (I can probably scan and post individual pictures if necessary).

The best source of original Byzantine illustrations is the Scylitzes manuscript but I don't know of an accessible modern edition.

John Haldon's The Byzantine Wars doesn't have much in the way of illustrations but has probably the best battle maps and descriptions if we ever want to do any historical battle scenarios.

Haldon publishes a lot and seems to be aiming at an almost Stephen Turnbull-like domination of the market on Byzantine militaria but his other books tend to focus more on the institutional and social aspects of warfare.

Warren Treadgold's Byzantium and it's Army 284-1081 is even more institutionally-focused and seriously questionable in several respects (his very detailed reconstruction of the Byzantine order of battle makes infantry units far more numerous and important than the source documents suggest they should be).

There are translations of the main Byzantine military manuals but AFAIK they are all out of print and very hard to get hold of: there is however a useful summary by one of the translators at
http://www.deremilitari.org/RESOURCES/PDFs/DENNIS1.PDF.

[The Apostate]

Yet more on swords (no - not bloody claymores again)

I am now the owner of the gorgeous Thames and Hudson Bayeux Tapestry coffee table book which I cannot recommend highly enough.

This is by far the most important contemporary source on late viking era arms and armour.

What is very striking from looking at the entire tapestry for the first time is how few of the warriors shown are using swords in the battle scenes.

Out of something like 200 or 300 fighting figures only 8 of the Normans and 5 of the Saxons are using swords: probably under 0.5% of the total.

Of the remainder almost all of the Normans are on horseback and have lances and about 80% of the Saxons have spears and maybe 15-20% have two-handed axes (a few unarmoured Saxons have clubs and there is exactly one Saxon archer).

This lack of swords being actually used in battle is even more striking given that the Tapestry is hugely biased towards depicting the noble warriors on both sides who can afford them (and in fact most appear to be wearing swords at their belts) and only shows a few unarmoured lower class warriors on either side.

(i.e. in a significant if not altogether representative sample, skewed massively to over-represent sword-owners, there is a almost universal preference for using spears and axes instead of the sword in actual battle).

It is also significant that the sword-wielders that are shown are either army leaders such as Harold's brother Gyrth or are depicted in the final stages of Hastings and the pursuit afterwards - by which point many knights and huscarls would have lost or broken their spears and axes.

In several cases the swords are also clearly being used to deliver a coup de grace against a downed foe (when of course you are much less likely to damage it on an opponents armour or a parrying weapon).

This clearly confirms my suggestion a while back that viking-era swords were very expensive and rather fragile prestige weapons intended more for show (and perhaps the occasional formal duel) than for general combat use.

They were also clearly less than ideal for shieldwall fighting where a defender was unlikely to have room to swing a sword effectively, while an attacker needed the extra reach given by a spear or lance to reach the defenders unshielded areas.

(again in the Hastings panels several of the sword wielders seem to be fighting in the last stand after the shieldwall had broken and the prospect of making it home with your nice shiny sword undamaged must have looked pretty remote).

Which is rather a shame given that swordsmen units do look cool - however on balance I can't really support having more than a handful of such units in the mod (the Swabians, Byzantine Menavlatoi if we go for the pilum option, maybe a general's bodyguard unit or two).

[GoreBag]

One would think that if a man on a horse would use his lance before he used his sword - it's simply more effective, especially if he's a nobleman and can afford them. The Saxons had developed folded steel swords 500 years before the Japanese figured it out; should that not be reflected? If swords were magnificently rare and ineffective, why would anyone bother to attempt to improve them?

[Wikingus]

I've just skimmed through the last few pages, so I might have missed something, but concerning skeletor's post:

http://www.forskning.no/Bilder/1021377828.96/1021377828.96_content.JPG

This doesn't look like a flag that Vikings (or pre-Christian Norwegians) would use. I may be wrong though.

[The Apostate]

It's not that swords were magnificently ineffective - more that they were weapons of last rather than first resort in a full-scale battle (and many warriors would only fight one or two such battles in a lifetime).

Of course they were also more portable than spears and axes and thus could be useful in non-battle combat situations of the sort that are typically described in the sagas (surprise raids on settlements, duels, ambushes, small scale skirmishes, brawls that turn deadly etc).

Saxon swords were indeed very good but even the best don't survive repeated contact with metal armour.

Even samurai swords, while the indispensable symbol of the bushi were not the primary weapon of battlefield units for the same reason.

Similarly the later medieval knight would never have been seen without a sword, but when it came to killing people on the battlefield lances, axes, maces etc specifically designed to punch through armour were the weapon of preference.

Weapons are not always adopted and developed for purely rational military reasons - the Tokugawa samurai for instance having in many respects outstripped the west in developing personal firearms, then suddenly chose to abandon them almost completely for social and aesthetic reasons.

Even today almost all modern armies still train soldiers in the bayonet despite the fact that virtually nobody in modern warfare has ever been killed by one and that modern assault rifles are too short and too fragile to be effective bayonet mounts anyway.

(this is explicity admitted by the training manuals but they still continue it as it is believed to 'foster fighting spirit')

British and French guard cavalry units also still spend a great deal of time on horseback decked out as Napoleonic cuirassiers and dragoons.

On the evidence of the Tapestry, viking era swords probably saw much more use than modern bayonets but always as a secondary weapon.

[The Apostate]

Note that I've just revised the Byzantine Units post above.

Major change is that I've given up on trying to distinguish between thematic and tagmatic units as it produces a far too complex Byzantine roster.

[The Apostate]

On Norse banners later heraldic symbols are not appopriate.

For pagan vikings the banner design best attested is the raven representing Odin which is probably best given to the Danes.

Other mythological motifs that might conceivably have featured on viking banners are Thor's hammer, the world-tree Yggdrasil, the Midgardr serpent biting its tail, wolves, bears, bulls, horses, longships etc.

The same sort of motifs would have been used by Russians and Slavs.

Bulgars, Magyars and other steppe nomads used horse tail banners which probably would not look good even if you could render them - probably stylised Sarmatian or Scythian horse motifs would be a substitute.

(the cross motif that featured on medieval Hungarian banners was of course post-conversion and not appropriate).

Khazars must of course use the Star of David (doubtful whether this was actually used in Khazaria, but what the hell)

The Byzantines invented the double-headed eagle symbol familiar from Polish Albanian and imperial Russian flags.

However imperial battle flags from the labarum downwards all seem to have had cross motifs (ordinary 4 armed crosses and not the orthodox patriarchal crosses or crucifix's).

The chi-rho (an X with a P superimposed on top) was also used and would be my preference as more exotic than an ordinary cross.

Franks (i.e. Germans, French and Italians) used old dragon shaped windsock banners and more medieval style square and triangular banners.

The most common symbols used in coins of the era are religious (crosses, stylised churches)

However fleur de lis do start appearing on Capetian coins in the tenth century so this works for France.

Similarly the Germans may have filched the Byzantine imperial eagle at the time of Otto II's marriage to Theophano.

A black crown (for the iron crown of Lombardy) might work for the Italians (it's actually easy to find pictures of the crown itself but it is now so encrusted in gold and jewels that none of the original iron is visible).

Red and white dragons symbolise the Welsh and Saxons respectively in Geoffrey of Monmouth (early 12th century) and the use of 'the dragon' as an ephitet for several earlier Welsh kings makes it the obvious symbol for Wales.

St Andrew's cross only really became the national symbol of Scotland in the 14th Century - personally would prefer something from the Book of Kells (which was probably at least started in Iona under Scottish royal patronage before it was taken to Ireland).

Like other Germans the Saxons would have used dragon windsock banners - however you can obviously have only one dragon faction so I'd prefer the Sutton Hoo helmet.

Muslims used white triangular standards under the Umayyads, black for the Abbasids and green in al-Andalus.

While Muhammad's personal standard apparently had an eagle motif, later Islamic standards were either plain or had verses from the Koran embroidered onto them.

Crescents are regarded by many modern Muslims as idolatrous (as symbols of the moon Goddess) and was in fact the ancient pre-Roman symbol of the city of Byzantion-Constantinople and adopted by the Ottomans in 1453 to signify their taking over the empire.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Hi! Nice work, The Apostate. For the cavalry I have no comments, it looks really good as it is. Perhaps though I'd like some zone of recruit additions. According to my sources, the Byzantines apart from the internal conflicts also lost some of their troops recruiting capabilities by losing the lands from which they had earlier recruited their troops. Which would be the ZOR:s for the Byzantine cavalry? Trapezitoi sounds much like trebizond, is there a relation? Weren't the kataphraktoi recruited quite far to the east in Asia minor? Anyway I think ZOR would help limit the Byzantines from becoming overpowered in the campaign and also make it possible to simulate how the Byzantines could suddenly lose some of their recruiting abilities if they lost certain provinces.

For missile I'd like if we didn't use the R:TW style with same building complex for siege engines and handheld missile weapons. Also I'd like to have a system where archers are available earlier. Weren't archers almost standardized as main missile weapon at the time? If so I think the first archers should be available in a level one building or at least not later than the second level. I had in mind the first archers available in the tree should have very low stats and be militia, and the later archers, trained in perhaps the level 2 or 3 building, should be more professional. Crossbows should be level 4 and will rarely appear in the mod because it's so hard to get to level 4 buildings, and the best normal archers should be in the level 3 building. It would be helpful if you could tell me which of the missile units you mentioned were themata and which were tagmata. For infantry I'd like splitting up sword/axe units to one complex and spear units to another complex, a la M:TW. Temporary suggestion (in a shortened down form - weaponry, info and look is still as in the post above):

- Siege engineer (requires town, toxoballista), Siege engineer's workshop (requires large town, manganika), Siege engineer's guild (requires city, spendones, greek fire siphon projectors [maybe, maybe not])
- Muster field (psoloi javelinmen, town watch), Town militia (the town watch you searched for a greek name for, +5% law), Police force (the town watch you searched for a greek name for, +10% law). One alternative is to use generic units for these town watch/town guard units, i.e. a la M:TW use an urban militia. If it's not totally wrong I'd actually suggest it to save work so we don't have to model a unique militia, that's rarely ever used other than for keeping as garrisons, for every faction. Then we can use the names "urban militia" and "urban guard" that I used. Depending on whether the faction had much public order and law institutions, it'll either get only one of them or it'll get both of them.
- Bowmaker (psiloi slingers), Bowmaker's workshop (psiloi archers), Bowmaker's guild (skutatoi archers), Master bowmaker (crossbowmen, pavise crossbowmen).
- Weaponsmith (-), Weaponsmith's workshop (-), Weaponsmith's guild (menavlatoi [sword and pilum]), Master weaponsmith (varangian guard [sword]). I suggest we
- Spearmaker (peltastoi), Spearmaker's workshop (skutatoi), Spearmaker's guild (heavy skutatoi), Master spearmaker (-). I read somewhere there were lighter and heavier (in terms of armor) skutatoi. Is that incorrect? At least I think that'd be good for the tech tree if there were more than just two levels of spear units.
- (using M:TW names for the buildings - I think we should keep the building names same for all factions so it's easier for the player to know what they are for all factions - after all it's just a cosmetic detail:) Horse farmer (trapetzitoi [light cav, lance, sword]), Stables (sagittoi [light cav, bow, sword]), Cavalry stables (kataphraktoi [shield, lance, sword]), Elite cavalry stables (klibanophoroi [lance - and mace I believe? You forgot to tell what secondary weapon they had in your post. Anyway wasn't mace common among byzantine heavy cavs? So at least one unit should have maces - with anit-armor bonus - I think.])

Question on races: were races really related much to the quality of the militiary cavalry? If not, I suggest we should have a special building set for race arenas to fill the Byzantine need for more happiness buildings, as complement to the churches/cathedrals. We could have 1 or 2 levels of buildings, and in Constantinople itself, we could have the famous great hippodrome built from start but not possible to build elsewhere.

I suggested earlier that we should convert the vanilla R:TW games to "thing" and let the viking factions use it. That means both games and races are now occupied with this system.

[Rodion Romanovich]

On Byz. mercs they should be significantly but not totally dependant on them.

Although the manuals give the impression that their armies were all native actual battle descriptions show mercs as way more important.

One reason Byzantine archery declined for instance was probably the easy availability of large numbers of mercenary horse archers who were considerably better than anything they could produce themselves.

(even in the 6th century which was in many respects the high point of Byzantium militarily, Hun mercenaries play a suspiciously prominent role in almost every major battle).

As I've said before I personally feel Byzantine armies are massively over-rated - primarily because they are the only culture to have left detailed military manuals - but if they were so good why did they lose most of their battles?

My solution would be to make all native Byz units harder and more expensive to recruit than western or muslim units of the same level.

Build times of 2 or 3 turns for the tagmatic units would not be at all out of place.

ZoR should also make it hard or impossible for them to recruit decent units in conquered territories (as this evidently was a problem) - so the further they expand away from the core the more they'll need mercenaries.

The one new conquest which did produce high quality troops was Armenia which should be made particularly revolt-prone as the Armenian princes and church never accepted Byzantine overlorship.

The same should apply to the Slav provinces in the west.

Also other than Constantinople Byz towns should be seriously underdeveloped - one of the major new insights of recent scholarship is that to a large extent 8th and 9th century Byzantium was actually a one-city state, where the once flourishing towns and cities of Asia Minor and the Balkans were all seriously depopulated and often reduced to no more than forts.

Thus if Constantinople starts as a small city, I would make Thessalonica the only large town and everywhere else just towns or villages.

This would put the Byzantines in the same position as in early era MTW where they have a potentially great army but can only recruit one (or fewer)decent unit per turn.

Their starting field army should also include a bunch of mercenary units to get players used to using them (and to soak up some of their revenue and stop them from going into a rapid build strategy).

They should also start off at war with the Bulgars, Abbassids and Russians (but allied with the Khazars).

I agree to all of that. Much sounds like what I had in mind, and the parts that are new to me also sound very, very good. ~:cheers:

[Rodion Romanovich]

On Norse banners later heraldic symbols are not appopriate.

For pagan vikings the banner design best attested is the raven representing Odin which is probably best given to the Danes.

Other mythological motifs that might conceivably have featured on viking banners are Thor's hammer, the world-tree Yggdrasil, the Midgardr serpent biting its tail, wolves, bears, bulls, horses, longships etc.

The same sort of motifs would have been used by Russians and Slavs.

Bulgars, Magyars and other steppe nomads used horse tail banners which probably would not look good even if you could render them - probably stylised Sarmatian or Scythian horse motifs would be a substitute.

(the cross motif that featured on medieval Hungarian banners was of course post-conversion and not appropriate).

Khazars must of course use the Star of David (doubtful whether this was actually used in Khazaria, but what the hell)

The Byzantines invented the double-headed eagle symbol familiar from Polish Albanian and imperial Russian flags.

However imperial battle flags from the labarum downwards all seem to have had cross motifs (ordinary 4 armed crosses and not the orthodox patriarchal crosses or crucifix's).

The chi-rho (an X with a P superimposed on top) was also used and would be my preference as more exotic than an ordinary cross.

Franks (i.e. Germans, French and Italians) used old dragon shaped windsock banners and more medieval style square and triangular banners.

The most common symbols used in coins of the era are religious (crosses, stylised churches)

However fleur de lis do start appearing on Capetian coins in the tenth century so this works for France.

Similarly the Germans may have filched the Byzantine imperial eagle at the time of Otto II's marriage to Theophano.

A black crown (for the iron crown of Lombardy) might work for the Italians (it's actually easy to find pictures of the crown itself but it is now so encrusted in gold and jewels that none of the original iron is visible).

Red and white dragons symbolise the Welsh and Saxons respectively in Geoffrey of Monmouth (early 12th century) and the use of 'the dragon' as an ephitet for several earlier Welsh kings makes it the obvious symbol for Wales.

St Andrew's cross only really became the national symbol of Scotland in the 14th Century - personally would prefer something from the Book of Kells (which was probably at least started in Iona under Scottish royal patronage before it was taken to Ireland).

Like other Germans the Saxons would have used dragon windsock banners - however you can obviously have only one dragon faction so I'd prefer the Sutton Hoo helmet.

Muslims used white triangular standards under the Umayyads, black for the Abbasids and green in al-Andalus.

While Muhammad's personal standard apparently had an eagle motif, later Islamic standards were either plain or had verses from the Koran embroidered onto them.

Crescents are regarded by many modern Muslims as idolatrous (as symbols of the moon Goddess) and was in fact the ancient pre-Roman symbol of the city of Byzantion-Constantinople and adopted by the Ottomans in 1453 to signify their taking over the empire.

So in total regarding faction symbols we have (mixed with some of my own suggestions):
- Danes - Raven (perhaps same symbol as vikings have in MTW:VI - so: black raven on white background)
- Sweden, Norway, Rus - subject to discussion. I suggest longships for Norway as they were so good sailors and explorers. Thor's hammer is undoubtedly one of the coolest of your symbol suggestions, so I think we should use it for one of the factions, no matter which one. Perhaps Sweden, because we already have suggestions for Danes and Norway and the Wolves seem appropriate for Rus. I personally think the Russian taiga in winter time is easy to associate with wolves... I suggest we don't use any banner with horse for any viking factions because the steppes people would be using them according to your suggestion and it's a bonus if the symbols are easy to distinguish. (colors for symbols?)
- Magyars - stylized horse motif. (colors?)
- Bulgars - either horse motif, the double lions or the albanian two-headed eagle
- Khazars - given that the posted flag isn't easy to convert to a circular symbol (R:TW requires you to use circular symbols for the menu etc.), I can agree with the star of David, although it's questionable 1. how total the religious conversion was and 2. if that conversion would make them change banner as part of their conversion.
- Byzantines - The chi-rho (X with a P superimposed)
- Franks - Fleur de lis (I have no pics of this one but I think I know how it looks)
- HRE - The earlier byzantine imperial eagle (black and yellow as in M:TW?)
- Lotharingia - Black crown (what color of background?)
- Welsh - Red dragon (on what background?)
- Saxons - White dragon or the Sutton Hoo helmet (sutton hoo helmet is cool, but what color of helmet and background?)
- Scots - ?
- Abbassids - Black triangle (on what background?)
- Al-Andalus - Green triangle (what background?)
- Rebels - The hayfork symbol from vanilla R:TW can be kept IMO

[Rodion Romanovich]

@ALL: I've been talking to Myrddraal about getting a subforum, and here's what I got as response:

Hi,

I've been following the progress of your mod, and personally I think it deserves a subforum. The conditions for getting a subforum are basically some proof of progress and signs that the mod is not going to die out.

Looking through the thread, you've already shown plenty of evidence of that. It would be good if you could collect a few pics and send them to me, to get a clear idea of how your mod is doing.

The final word is TosaInu's, but you were right to contact me first. I'll recommend you to him.

Thanks
Myrddraal

I reckon we could send all the screenies posted in this thread so far, and if I get some menu stuff and faction symbols ready today we could send that too.

I also got this PS:

I'm not sure what the exact cut-off in bytes is for sig pic size, but have you considered using .jpg:

http://img166.echo.cx/img166/7848/untitledvikingsandfanaticssvak.png

114223 bytes as a .png

If so then simply saving as .jpg reduces it to 58 565 bytes with this quality:

http://img64.echo.cx/img64/6010/untitledvikingsandfanaticssvak.jpg

Spot the difference? Nah!

Feel free to use the link from the second one, its uploaded to imageshack.

[The Apostate]

Never even occurred to me but Trapezus was Trebizond so the name may have come from there.

'Trapeze' also apparently derives from these guys trick riding displays (which would actually have been copied from Central Asian nomads or even the Goths - there is a famous account of the Ostrogothic king Totila engaging in such a display before the battle of Taginae in 552).

However as a troop type trapezitoi were derived from late Roman light cavalry so should not be restricted to Trapezus.

On ZoR I would restrict all Byzantine units except maybe the town watch and psiloi to the core Byzantine provinces.

The Slavic and Armenian provinces later conquered would allow Slavic and Armenian units (the latter of which were high quality but unreliable) to be recruited instead.

Syrian Christians appear to have been notably unwarlike and the Byzantines had to encourage Armenians to move there to act as a garrison after they took Antioch.

The one eastern Christian community that did produce decent troops were the Maronites of Lebanon who were primarily foot archers.

Sicily was famous for its Saracen foot and horse archers under the Norman kings - whether the Byzantines would have employed them if they had conquered Sicily is doubful as they were far more intolerant than the Normans and Muslim communities generally did not last long under their rule.

At the very end of the period (after 1081) an influx of Anglo-Saxon refugees apparently led the emperor Alexius I to settle them in a colony on the Black Sea east of the Crimea where they literally founded a New England with a New York and New London - traces of which were still present when Genoese merchants compiled their charts 4 centuries later.

Always loved that story and wanted to do something with it, but can't see where it fits in here....couldn't resist dropping it in though.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Ok, good. When you say "Byzantine core provinces", do you mean Constantinople and all of Asia minor, or are the "colonies" elsewhere also to be included?

Another question that I realized I forgot in my post above: after Manzikert the Byzantine emperor of the time is said to have formed a cavalry guard called "the Immortals". Should those be a unit? If so, it should of course have a very small unit size, long training time and be expensive, and be in the level 4 building, perhaps also with ZOR Constantinople. What do you think?

[The Apostate]

Not sure about triangles for Muslims.

The Ummayads did use a throne called the Sarir as a symbol but almost certainly not on banners - which would have been white when they ruled from Damascus and green when they ruled in al-Andalus.

Apparently the crescent and star does appear on Ummayad coins of the 7th century - although at this stage the Caliphate was far less strict on the use of non-Muslim iconography than it ultimately became,

Can't remember what MTW used for Almohads and Egyptians.

Longships work well for the Norwegians.

The Swedes main deity appears to have been Freyr who was usually depicted as a bearded helmeted figure with a prominent moustache and even more prominent sexual organ - so maybe the hammer of Thor might be better....

Russia much later adopted the Byzantine Eagle and Cross of St Andrew as symbols but neither is appropriate for pagan Rus.

None of the pagan Russian deities look ideal - however what about the Firebird?

(something like the logo at the bottom of http://www.firebird-productions.com/the_game.htm)

Russians also used a four arrows/thunderbolts radiating from a circle motif that looks remarkably similar to the Roman legionary shield design and is probably associated with the thunder-god Perun.

Ireland I suppose is a harp and if all else fails Scotland will have to be a St Andrews cross.

If Khazaria had a symbol it would probably have involved a horse but then so would the Bulgars and Magyars - and they can't all have horses.

I must admit that the main treason I want the Star of David is so I can play kick-ass Jews for a change (I was deeply disappointed at the lack of maccabees and zealots in RTW).

On the Bulgars, these were originally Huns and the most famous Hunnic legend concerns the white stag which led them west into Europe - so the RTW British symbol could work for them.

The Chuvash descendants of the Bulgars who settled on the Volga today use a tree of life symbol in their modern flag - although I can't think of anything less symbolic of a steppe nomad than a tree.

The Balkan Bulgars adopted the Byzantine eagle as part of their attempt to take over the empire in the 10th century - however I think the Germans are a better bet for the eagle faction.

A stag could also work for the Magyars (who had no actual connection with the Huns but were generally described as Huns by everyone else - thus Hungary).

Wolves also seem a good symbol for nomad raiders.

The flag of Asturias is a gold cross on a blue background and does seem to be fairly well attested: http://www.answers.com/topic/flag-of-asturias

[Agraes]

For the Welsh I suggest red dragon on white background. The dragon was used for centuries by the Britons, since the Roman conquest and Welsh kept it, and in Winter King of Bernard Cornwell, the flag of Domnonia is a red dragon on a white background... don't take the modern welsh flag cause it's modern... i have a book on Emblemes of the Celts and the Bretons, I can translate you what it say about the dragon if you want.

For the Scots, I suggest a celt symbol like a triskell or a tribann. St Ander's cross seems to have been used in XIth century but the legend about it results of a battle between Angles and Picts in the VIIIth century.

[skeletor]

Sugestion for Scot banner..

Mind the war banner don't have to be the faction symbol.
- The eagle is taken from Book of Kells. (Can easally be changed.)

http://img166.echo.cx/img166/7109/banner1lr.png

-Skel-

[GoreBag]

The eagle is an interesting choice. Can you explain your rationale behind it?

About national symbols...I don't know of one in particular that would for this time period, but I know that Scotland has been associated with a unicorn for quite some time. There was a part Through the Looking Glass where a lion fights a unicorn; it was symbolic of clashes between Scots and English. However, I don't know how long this symbol was in use.

[skeletor]

The eagle is actually just somethibg i found in Book of Kells, and i thought it looked cool. It, and the colors, can be replaced upon request.

-Skel-

[GoreBag]

I think the colours are great, actually. Just needs a touch of that ol' Sky Blue.

[Rodion Romanovich]

@ALL: I've sent some samples of our work so far to Myrrdraal and hopefully this will lead to TosaInu granting us an own subforum here at the .org!

@skeletor: I like the eagle as a battle standard. I think it'll be hard to use it as faction symbol though. The smallest faction symbol is only 30*30 pixels, and much of that can't be used by the symbol itself due to the need for a frame around the symbol, so it's barely 20*20 pixels in reality. Maybe it's going a little too far in simplifying the symbols if we adapt them to look perfect even for those smallest icons, but I believe we should at least make sure the faction symbols look very good in the 59*59 pixels format, and at least distinguishable from each other in the 30*30 format.

[skeletor]

I think the colours are great, actually. Just needs a touch of that ol' Sky Blue.

I thougt of it myself, blue it wil be. I have been downloading alot of cilt patterns, so i got a bit carried away with the green. I hope we can agree upon having sky blue as faction color for the scot's.

I will start working on the Welsh banner now. (red dragon onwhite)

-Skel-

[skeletor]

Blue banner for the scots..
~:cheers:
It needs some work with the white line surounding the banners, and the glowing.. But anyway, here is some ingame pic's too.
http://img166.echo.cx/img166/1394/4evangelistslg7ry.jpg
http://img166.echo.cx/img166/295/blbanner0tk.jpg

If ayone can find cool pic's of dragons for the welch, i wold be happy if you could post it/link. Colors and size doesn't mather..thnx :egypt:



-Skel-

[skeletor]

Also, is this good for the Welsh dragon? http://img166.echo.cx/img166/7021/welshdragon21zd.jpg And, wold it be apropiate to put fiff it up with tribal, christian, or other symbols/patterns?

-Skel-

[Rodion Romanovich]

Also, is this good for the Welsh dragon?

Yes, it's good. I tried resizing it and it looks good after resizing too. Great! ~:cheers:

Edit: Wow, those ingame shots of the Scottish banner are really great. Hm, I must have missed them first time I looked at the post. I believe for faction symbol we could just cut away the frame and fill the background inside the circle with the same pattern as the one that's now surrounding the eagle. With a thin circular frame added around it, it would be perfect.

[Agraes]

Welsh drake looks very nice, and scot banner does too ~D

[Rodion Romanovich]

Good news!!! We now have our own subforum! ~D ~D ~D

Link: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=106

All further discussions regardingthe mod will be carried out there!

[dark_shadow89]

This mod looks great! I'd like to produce some concept art for you guys, if you'd like?

[oj121]

Just something i thought was worth adding for historical accuracy. If the Welsh leader at the start of the mod is Rhodri Mawr, then you CANT have Gwynydd as the capital. Rhodri was Prince of Deheubarth/Dinefwr and that must be his capital. It wasnt until the last few hundred years of Welsh independance that Gwynydd took over as the most powerful principality. Deheubarth/Dinefwr was far stronger in the early years and def around the time period for this mod due to richer lands and the monastaries that they contained.

[oj121]

For Welsh rulers and names go here.

http://www.castlewales.com/gwynedd.html

By 912AD Rhodri was dead so you will want to start with his son Anarawd ap Rhodri. ITs quite a cool page that shouldhelp you a lot.

As for the Welsh flag or banner, i think the red dragon on a white background would be perfect,yet i dont think you should use a square flag. I cant remember the name for the shape but its goes into 2 points on the open side of the flag, like two triangles stuck together. That would adda bit of subtle depth to the flag IMO and give it more of a warrior class feel. And it would be a dirty white aswell, dont forget they didnt have Daz.

[The Apostate]

Glad to see the Book of Kells suggestion taken up for the Scots.

Didn't realise that the banners could be different to the faction symbols which gives a lot more flexibility.

On the Byzantine 'immortals' (athanatoi) - these were apparently quite a large unit raised by Alexius I after 1081 - (Bryennius states there were 10,000 of them but this may just be a literary reference to the original Persian immortals who were 10,000 strong).

They appear to have been raised from the remnants of the thematic armies of Asia Minor - most of whom would have lost their homes after the Turkish conquest and to have been re-trained to fight like the Normans with couched lance (which can be taken as evidence that native Byzantine cavalry had 'forgotten' how to charge with couched lances before this period).

Problem is that if you include the athanatoi and other Alexian units (there were also the turcopouloi or horse archers of mixed Greek and Turkish ancestry, and the archontopouloi and chomatenoi who seem to have been heavy cavalry), you have to drop some of the older units they replaced.

If we could somehow engineer a Marian reform event mirroring the changes of 1066-1081 and giving not just the Byzantines but other factions completely new unit rosters this would be worth doing.

Otherwise I think Hastings and Manzikert should be our end points.

Would love to create a mod that covers the early crusades but maybe that's a version 2.0 project

[Rodion Romanovich]

Ok. I think we should stop discussing in this thread now that we've recieved an own subforum. I've set up threads for the different subjects we've discussed. The discussions can continue over there where they ended here. If there is material in this thread we need we can always post it again in the new threads.

The subforum is here: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=106

[Jarlabanke]

Thors hammer is better than one of Freys attributes because the hammers are more common in the archeological material. Furthermore you have Adam of Bremens classic description of the Uppsala temple; Thor in the middle, Frey and Odin on the sides. If anyone should have a banner connected to Frey it should be the Norwegians, as their kings claimed to be his decendants.

Concerning weaponary, swords can not have been extremely rare as there are a couple of thousands of them from Scandinavia alone. According to "The penguins historical atlas of the vikings" swords were actually more comman than spears in western Scandinavia, even though I myslef must say I doubt that.

What is confirmed though is that vikings returning from the Byzantine empire sometimes brought scalemails with them home, parts of these having been found at Birka. The varangian guard along with some of the more elite scandinavian units could use these to make them differ from the normal vikings, even though normal chainmail is thought to have been rather rare.

[ScionTheWorm]

Hi i'm new here, have started some skinning. Here is two skins I've worked on this weekend, based on a model by skeletor. I've come to a point where I don't see how to improve it, so I would very much appreciate constructive critism! :charge: And maybe some ideas about the shield, I've got no clue. Thinking about putting some golden piece of metal on the top of the helmet.

SAXON ARMOURED FYRDMEN

http://img291.echo.cx/img291/3502/sc24bn.th.jpg (http://img291.echo.cx/my.php?image=sc24bn.jpg)

http://img291.echo.cx/img291/8929/sc33jm.th.jpg (http://img291.echo.cx/my.php?image=sc33jm.jpg)

SAXON FYRDMEN

http://img210.echo.cx/img210/9928/sc48et.th.jpg (http://img210.echo.cx/my.php?image=sc48et.jpg)

I like to get some feedback on my work, not just post it when it's done. Some thread about skinned units to post "units under construction" would be much appreciated. I guess the list of all units and such to be included isn't fully complete, but we really should get a list or something over who's doing what, what factions, what's complete and so on when it comes to graphics. Would be nice to have when more skinners/modellers arrive.

[ScionTheWorm]

SAXON CAVALRY, unfinished

http://img225.echo.cx/img225/1460/sc56xf.th.jpg (http://img225.echo.cx/my.php?image=sc56xf.jpg)

(don't care about the carthagian horses)

[GoreBag]

I have been downloading alot of cilt patterns...

Oh...why would you be downloading tartans?

@Scion

I think the new skins are great, but the armoured fyrdmen need more beards. ~;p

[Rodion Romanovich]

SAXON CAVALRY, unfinished

http://img225.echo.cx/img225/1460/sc56xf.th.jpg (http://img225.echo.cx/my.php?image=sc56xf.jpg)

(don't care about the carthagian horses)

Good looking skins! Although I agree there should probably be some more beards ~:) Also make the saxon fyrdmen slightly darker and the saxon armored fyrdmen a more complex pattern for the shields. Perhaps make it look more dirty or make a wood pattern on the back of it.

BTW, all discussion about the mod is now carried out in our own subforum, over here: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=106

We are discussing units in progress in this thread: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=48793

[Ranika]

I'll be brief and unannoying, but want to mention before you do any Scots. Kilts didn't exist yet. Plaid patterns were used, but Gaels wore knee-length shirts with a belt (on a statue it'd look like a kilt at first glance), call a leine, not kilts. The kilt is a later invention. Plaid was worn as a shoulder cloak (a cloak come to the lower part of the shoulder and chest, fastened at the right shoulder), and sometimes on full length cloaks. They wore leather shoes or boots, and were bare-legged. Professional soldiers wore leather armor or padding, sometimes chain.

[ScionTheWorm]

Good looking skins! Although I agree there should probably be some more beards ~:) Also make the saxon fyrdmen slightly darker and the saxon armored fyrdmen a more complex pattern for the shields. Perhaps make it look more dirty or make a wood pattern on the back of it.

BTW, all discussion about the mod is now carried out in our own subforum, over here: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=106

We are discussing units in progress in this thread: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=48793

Sure, will use the other thread now. Can't edit my posts though, do I have to be a member and not a junior member?

[Wikingus]

Any thoughts on events (such as the Stoic Philosophy, Archimedes' Screw, etc. in RTW)? Are any planned to be included?

What about events such as the Marius Reforms, those are hardcoded are they not?

[King Ragnar]

I think one of the saxon kings reorganised the saxon army at one point but i can't remeber when or if this is even a true statement.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Sure, will use the other thread now. Can't edit my posts though, do I have to be a member and not a junior member?

Yes, you need something like 20, 25 or 50 posts or so first.

[skeletor]

I think one of the saxon kings reorganised the saxon army at one point but i can't remeber when or if this is even a true statement.

True, king Alfre did. It wasn't so mutch their weapons, or organisation he reformed, but he created a standing army (about 60.000 men i think), garisoned in forts spread along the border. This was a reaction to the dane raids, and made the fyrd able to respond to their surprize attacks.

-Skel-

[Wikingus]

What about music, are there any plans to switch the god-awful vanilla music with something better?
If that's a possibility, I have a ton of Norse folk music, and am willing to contact the bands about permissions for their usage.

[skeletor]

That wold be really great Wikingus..

For the battlesequenses there are alot of Norwegian Blackmetal band playing Norse vikinginspier'd music, with a bit more horns and base than the usual folkmusik.
:medievalcheers:

You could make a "music" thread in the forum..

-Skel-

[The Stranger]

hello, i'm from NTW and just found out that we merged. i have no idea of what you're doing and where you guys are (in progress) could someone please tell me my job. cuz it''s annoying to do things done by other people already

[ScionTheWorm]

From introduction:
- LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix - project leader/campaign map maker/skinner/unit editor
- Captain-Tiguris - project leader/skinner/unit editor
- The Apostate - chief of research
- skeletor - skinner/unit editor
- ScionTheWorm - skinner/unit editor
- King Ragnar - researcher/skinner

I guess we're still in the planning a research stage, but we've started making graphics (a lot posted on this forum). A few factions (If not only one) have a complete tech tree, and the campaignmap isn't finished. LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix has the overview, but I think it would be nice to have someone putting the finished pieces together (factions, faction-symbols, units that's finished/nearly finished) to a provincial campaign when a little bit more is done. Looks like you are a experienced datafile-editor, so i guess that would fit you.

Anyway, I think LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix knows best.

[Rodion Romanovich]

hello, i'm from NTW and just found out that we merged. i have no idea of what you're doing and where you guys are (in progress) could someone please tell me my job. cuz it''s annoying to do things done by other people already

The campaign map is in progress, but it's hard to tell when it'll be ready. I'll probably make a first release of it with a temporary province list, as our province list is changing continually due to new research. If I do that, I can have it ready in two weeks or so, but it takes plenty of time to redo all the province drawings all the time, so I'd like it most if we could get provinces completely ready before I start with drawing the province borders.

While I'm awaiting the province list I'm looking at modding smaller details and working on some small graphics like loading screens, faction symbols etc. Parts of the project is still under research but around 5 units have been skinned and the progress on campaign map terrain is quite good.

At this time I believe you can help with modding smaller details such as quotes and names. For some reason I get errors when I do those things... I'll post some quotes and names suggestions in a new thread.

[ScionTheWorm]

LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix: Is our lead-researcher missing? It should really be a priority, as you said it's a bitch when one have to change things... in fact I think all of the research an concept should be in place before we had started doing any graphics, even though that's boring and hard to do... what I'm saying is if we're missing active researchers, we should get someone that could do it.

[Jarlabanke]

As far as researcch go, I'll help as much as I can.

[skeletor]

Thats great Jarlabanke.. Have you got any knowledge of the Scot unit's apperence? I am not sure about Clan-colors, cilts, blue faces ect...

Anyone in to scot's?

-Skel-

[ScionTheWorm]

I think they will be quite similar to the Irish, allthough I don't know what they looked like either. I also read they were quite friendly with irish, maybe they should start as allies? (this could be terribly wrong..)

[Rodion Romanovich]

LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix: Is our lead-researcher missing? It should really be a priority, as you said it's a bitch when one have to change things... in fact I think all of the research an concept should be in place before we had started doing any graphics, even though that's boring and hard to do... what I'm saying is if we're missing active researchers, we should get someone that could do it.

I agree. I'll PM him. If we can't get one or two more tech trees commented by him n a few days time we'll have to do that part of the research ourselves. Then he'll only be able to help with the parts we haven't done yet, but we can't allow him to change the tech trees we've already decided upon because we can't do stuff over and over again.

So, Jarlabanke, can you take responsibility for researching the Saxons and commenting on my tech tree for them in the tech trees thread? I'll look more at provinces myself in the meantime, and it's probably best if the skinners order which faction tech trees of those I've listed in the tech trees thread needs research/commenting first. Can you, Jarlabanke, during the coming days take care of researching the tech trees the skinners want to skin units from during the coming week?

[ScionTheWorm]

I would appreciate to get some or all unique units for these factions first:
- French
- Holy roman empire
- Normandy

I believe these are much similar to the Saxons, at least on model basis (with a possible exception for the helmets).

The "shared units" should be properly discussed before we start modelling them. (for instance, will catapult crew or crossbowmen have helmets, and stuff like that)

Note: I'll make a collection of complete units, then I'll start perfecting them. Then, maybe after several units are completely done for a faction + tech tree is complete we could make a thread for each faction with tech tree and faction-description as first post, and complete skins as the second.

[Ranika]

To reiterate:


I'll be brief and unannoying, but want to mention before you do any Scots. Kilts didn't exist yet. Plaid patterns were used, but Gaels wore knee-length shirts with a belt (on a statue it'd look like a kilt at first glance), call a leine, not kilts. The kilt is a later invention. Plaid was worn as a shoulder cloak (a cloak come to the lower part of the shoulder and chest, fastened at the right shoulder), and sometimes on full length cloaks. They wore leather shoes or boots, and were bare-legged. Professional soldiers wore leather armor or padding, sometimes chain.

When they wore helmets, they were generally leather skull caps, or conical helmets (but with no nasal guard). They favored round shields, sometimes oval shields. The favored type of sword was mid-length (between that of a short and longsword), they used one-handed axes pretty often, spears, javelins, and sometimes slings, more rarely bows. They both dressed the same way in the period. Technically, the Scots didn't even exist yet. It wasn't called 'Scotland', the kingdom that'd become Scotland was soon to be called 'Alba', the Gaelic word for Britain. In 841 (according to the Propechy of St. Berchan and De Instructione Principus), Kenneth MacAlpin called the Pictish king Drust IX, and the remaining Pictish nobility from the seven remaining noble houses (including the only other claimants to the Pictish throne but MacAlpin himself) to a meeting at Scone to discuss peace between the Dal Riadans and Picts. Accounts vary of just how things went down, but by the end of the meeting, all the Pict nobles were dead, and it was a matter of MacAlpin proclaiming himself king of all Pictland and Dal Riada, forming the kingdom of Alba. He found Pict resistance, eventually wiped out the remainder of the Pict army, they rebelled every so often, but were eventually cowed into submission. Technically, though, the 'Scottish' kings, at the time, only really exerted rule over Dal Riada, the Mearns, and Fortrenn. Vikings controlled pretty much everything else at the time.

Anyway, at the beginning of your selected period, the 'Scots' (properly Dal Riadans or Albions) are essentially just Irish Gaels in Britain. They're culturally identical, and Dal Riada and then Alba was counted, for a few centuries, among the Irish kingdoms, due to their culture. Further, the Dal Riadans considered themselves 'Irish'; inasmuch as they often found themselves deeply involved in the politics of the Irish kingdoms, and were often used as a go-between between the Gaels in Ireland and the non-Celtic British. They would use the same weapons, troops, wear the same cloths, etc. Exceptions would be like Pictish units (as the Dal Riadans did place Picts in their service upon conquering some of their lands, and used them against their enemies), Strathclyder/Regyddite nobles (who used large two-handed axes, but otherwise would look like other Gaels, even though they were technically Gaelo-British), Inishnaight (Irish islanders from the Aran islands and other small satellite islands; they generally fought with axes, cudgels/maces, or spears, with javelins, and thick cloaks they used for defense), and Rastriagh (Irish berserkers, which came from different western Irish saint cults to warrior saints). The Gaels removed their body hair, some Irish Gaels still painted themselves in the west, and they often wore cruiddha; 'handlebar' mustaches (like R:TW Gauls/Britons), or clean-shaved, but didn't care as much for beards (though they were present). They favored leather or padded armor for regular soldiers.

The 'highlanders' don't really exist yet. The concept of 'highland' and 'lowland' Scots is a later advent, when Norman culture influenced the lowlanders, but the highlanders remained essentially Nordo-Gaelic in culture (with an emphasis on the Gaelic portion of their culture).

Consequently, if you use any Pictish units, they tattooed themselves, wore trousers, beards, often fought barechest/barefoot (though not at all always, of course, they also wore thick coats and cloaks and boots during winter), favored spears and axes, and longswords for their elites (usually bought from Gaels at great expense; Gaels rarely used longswords, and they were quite expensive), and wore bronze round helmets whenever they had helmets to wear. They wore leather armor sometimes, and, at best, 'chain' armor, but with very wide, heavy rings (Gaels also used this armor, as chain armor had long fallen out of major use by Gaels, except by champions and elite soldiers, but they needed metal armor sometimes for protection).

[Jarlabanke]

I could, though I must say that the vikings themselves are more of my area, and much easier to obtain correct information about.

[Rodion Romanovich]

I would appreciate to get some or all unique units for these factions first:
- French
- Holy roman empire
- Normandy

I believe these are much similar to the Saxons, at least on model basis (with a possible exception for the helmets).

The "shared units" should be properly discussed before we start modelling them. (for instance, will catapult crew or crossbowmen have helmets, and stuff like that)

Note: I'll make a collection of complete units, then I'll start perfecting them. Then, maybe after several units are completely done for a faction + tech tree is complete we could make a thread for each faction with tech tree and faction-description as first post, and complete skins as the second.

Sounds good. I'll work on the tech trees and then mark them in red when they're ready for discussing about looks etc. in the units thread. I'll highlight those I want to discuss with you and get feedback about in blue.

[ScionTheWorm]

I could, though I must say that the vikings themselves are more of my area, and much easier to obtain correct information about.

I think a complete unit-list for the vikings could be very handy for skeletor who's taking care of them. Or maybe there already is one?

As you pointed out it's pretty unproblematic because we know a lot about them. If you don't feel comfortable with one of the former mentioned factions, you choose another one. I find it difficult too, finding relevant information on that timeperiod. If you find some unique units or information, write it in the tech-tree thread so we can discuss it.


Sounds good. I'll work on the tech trees and then mark them in red when they're ready for discussing about looks etc. in the units thread. I'll highlight those I want to discuss with you and get feedback about in blue.

We should get an expert or two to take a look on it soon, someone that has really got a clue. Things that's not part of history for sure can then be ruled out so we don't waste time on discussing it. It wouldn't neccessarely take much time for someone to take a look on it.

[ScionTheWorm]

Do we have a title/logo yet?

Just played around, only for fun..
http://img299.echo.cx/img299/6337/t19mu.th.jpg (http://img299.echo.cx/my.php?image=t19mu.jpg)

[Rodion Romanovich]

Nope, we don't have any logo yet. Your logo is nice but the logo probably needs to fill these requirements I think:
1. it should work with transparency. Can be achieved either by having a frame or by having some type of glowing around the logo.
2. it should be possible to resize easily so we had better use vector graphics if possible
3. it should look good on top of the loading screens and preferably on most graphics (therefore, a good idea might be to have some kind of glow around the text like in the R:TW logo, so that it works on both light and dark backgrounds). Alternatively it could be made in a way so it looks good in many different color scales, i.e. both in a dark version and in a lighter version.

[Wikingus]

Do we have a title/logo yet?

Just played around, only for fun..
http://img299.echo.cx/img299/6337/t19mu.th.jpg (http://img299.echo.cx/my.php?image=t19mu.jpg)

Wow, two thumbs up from me! ~:cheers: ~:eek:

[ScionTheWorm]

Made it with Xara (great illustration tool), and can be exported to all adobe formats, jpg, gif ++
Of course with transparency. Maybe it should be different though

[ScionTheWorm]

This image could be used for an "event" when a country becomes christian. if it is an event of course. thought it was nice.

"Triumph of Christianity" by Tommaso Laureti (1530-1602), ceiling painting in the Sala di Constantino, Vatican Palace. Images like this one celebrate the destruction of ancient pagan culture and the victory of Christianity.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/07/250px-Tommaso.Laureti.Triumph.of.Christianity.jpg)

Should play sad music... :wings: :whip:

Are any events going to be included? (never really understood the meaning with them)

[Rodion Romanovich]

Events will probably be included, but I don't think they're necessary really. For our version 2 conversion will probably be possible to include because then the expansion pack will be out and they'll have that function, apparently.

[ScionTheWorm]

doesn't happen much in technology or disasters anyway that period... turbulent period culturally though, but I guess that's what we're simulating by playing the game

[ScionTheWorm]

LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix: can you as a moderator make me a member from junior member? *wrote "noble irish nobles" goddamnit..* I wan't to be able to edit my posts

[Rodion Romanovich]

LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix: can you as a moderator make me a member from junior member? *wrote "noble irish nobles" goddamnit..* I wan't to be able to edit my posts

No, but I can edit your posts in this subforum. Anyway I don't think you need that many more posts before becoming member, you've already more than 50.

[skeletor]

Lol, you've got more ports then me junior! ~:joker:

-Skel-

[ScionTheWorm]

Lol, you've got more ports then me junior! ~:joker:

i have given up hope.
I have really begun to understand that i'll never be more than a junior member. never made it, never will :wideeyed:

Can anybody explain to me the Ntw/Age of Vikings and Fanatics-situation? who's old ntw-folks, and what happened? is the age-concept the one to be carried out (don't know the difference really, but looks like there is one)?

[The Stranger]

it's the time not the posts i thought. though i have gotten rid of it very fast

[ScionTheWorm]

Member at last!! :charge: :duel: ~:cheers: :juggle2: :drummer: :guitarist: :jawdrop: ~:snowman: :toff: :medievalcheers: :barrel: :barrel: :barrel:

[Belatucadros]

I would be willing to do research for you guys if you guys allow internet research. ~:)

[ScionTheWorm]

I would be willing to do research for you guys if you guys allow internet research. ~:)
I really need suggestions to faction symbols for some factions.. the problem is to find symbols for that time period, but just a description of a motivie is good too. (like magyar = horse)
- Lotharingia
- Abbassids
- Al Andalus
- Asturia
- Bulgars
- Normandy

I doubt that internet research is a problem ~:cool:

[Belatucadros]

Alright ill try to get those.


:medievalcheers:

edit- so does this mean im part of the team or am i just outside help?

[ScionTheWorm]

heh this does not mean your part of the team, that's not up to me. I think we're going towards to the end of the research stage, but Legio is the project leader so I guess he knows best.

[Belatucadros]

thats perfectly fine, i dont need to be on the team but im happy to help reasearch.

[Incongruous]

I'll help u if you like with the Magyars (you can tell from my name that I'm obviously a MAGYAR)

The leader of the Magyars at the start should be Árpád, he is the legendry founder of Magyar (Hungary in English).
If you want I could give you some Magyar, Hun, Avar, Turkic, Khazar names , and if you like I'll find a siutable faction symbol. ~:)
Also what are you going to put on the pannonian plain and Carpathian basin?

[ScionTheWorm]

A faction symbol would be very much welcome. Maybe also some typical description of their art or what the style of the faction symbol should be associated with. Maybe you also have a clue about the bulgars..? ~:)

[Incongruous]

Allso I don't think that the faction name "Saxons" is very accurate, it should be either, "The Kingdom of Wessex", "The Kingdom of the Anglo-Saxons" or "The Kingdom of the English".
I think the last one would be best.
Oh and the faction symbol of the "Kingdom of the English" should be the Golden Wyvern of Wessex.
sosrry here is that last post re-inststed with proper Englishg ~:)

[GoreBag]

Allso I don't think that the faction name "Saxons" is very accurate, it should be either, "The Kingdom of Wessex", "The Kingdom of the Anglo-Saxons" or "The Kingdom of the English".
I think the last one would be best.
Oh and the faction symbol of the "Kingdom of the English" should be the Golden Wyvern of Wessex.
sosrry here is that last post re-inststed with proper Englishg ~:)

When the term "Saxons" is used in this period, it usually refers to the Jutes, Saxons and Angles in the kingdom, so Anglo-Saxons isn't quite right either. I think "Kingdom of Wessex" is a good name, though.

[Incongruous]

Ok, but I still reckon thet "Kindom of the English" is best.
Oh and the Bulgars could be called the "Bulgarian Khanate" of "Khanate of the Great Plain".

[ScionTheWorm]

I prefer "Kingdom of Wessex" rather than English and saxon. "Bulgarian Khanate" gave me good vibes too

[Ranika]

Kingdom of Wessex I think works best; English is a post-Norman conquest term.

[Incongruous]

No its not a post conquest name, I beleive Alfred the Great was called "King of the Englisc" (just pronounce Englisc the same as English), and thus founded the ruling house of Wessex. So its not ahistorical, but its your Choice.

[Ranika]

The Ænglisc were more of a tribe than a political entity; the people were called the West Saxons (Wessex). The Normano-Saxon name of Ængland (Anglan or Angland or England) WAS taken from them, but that's because Normans generally refered to their enemies by ruling houses when the option was available; the Irish (for example), regardless of the kingdom they were fighting, would be addressed by aristocratic house rather than kingdom (which was the opposite of Irish custom) at parlay, even if no member of that kingdom's current aristocracy was present.

[Incongruous]

No I still beleive that by the time of Alfred, all Saxons called themselves "Englisc", even their language was called that.
Calling them "The kingdom of Wessex" would be wrong because Alfred was crowned King of the Englisc and so the other kingdoms ceased to be including Wessex, all were amalgamated behind Alfred King of the Englisc founder of the House of Wessex.

[Ranika]

I don't recall that, but if it is right, then why call the faction English? Why not Englisc? Englisc would, then, be the period appropriate.