US soldier cleared in shooting of unarmed, wounded, motionless insurgent

[Hurin_Rules]

Sorry, but this is just a bit much for me. A US soldier shoots a wounded, unarmed, motionless Iraqi soldier, and is cleared of any wrongdoing. I've seen the videotape, and this is just unconscionable. I guess if you're an Iraqi, its fine for Americans to shoot you in the head, whether you're wounded or not, armed or not, moving or unmoving, and whether you beg for your life or not.


Marine cleared in videotaped shooting
Wounded Iraqi killed inside Falluja mosque
From Jamie McIntyre
CNN
Thursday, May 5, 2005 Posted: 10:35 AM EDT (1435 GMT)

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Navy investigators have determined a U.S. Marine acted in self-defense when he shot an apparently wounded and unarmed Iraqi inside a Falluja mosque in November, a senior Pentagon official said Wednesday.

The Marine corporal, who will not face charges, was under investigation in the shootings of four enemy combatants as part of an operation during the siege of Falluja on November 13, 2004. The mosque shooting was captured on videotape by an embedded reporter.

An investigation by the Naval Criminal Investigative Service determined that the Marine acted in self-defense, within military law and the law of armed conflict.

Although that Marine has been cleared of wrongdoing, the investigation remains open because autopsies of some of the bodies found in the mosque turned up bullets that were not from his gun.

The incident occurred during house-to-house fighting in southern Falluja, less than a week after U.S.-led forces launched an offensive to rout insurgents from the restive Iraqi city.

The corporal said in a sworn statement that he opened fire at the people because he thought they were threat to the Marines in the mosque, according to a military news release.

The investigators who considered the facts of the incident agreed.

"The evidence indicates that based on the actions of those AIF (anti-Iraqi forces), the corporal reasonably believed that they posed a hostile threat to him and his fellow Marines and justifiably fired in self-defense.

"The enhanced videotape of the shooting supports the corporal's claim that the wounded AIF was concealing his left arm behind his head," the Marines said in a statement.

The report said that while it isn't "clear" whether insurgents in the videotape "made any overtly threatening gestures, it is clear that the Marines "were aware that feigning death was a common enemy" tactic.

"Accordingly, it was reasonable to believe that the corporal fired on the AIF after reasonably believing that the individual was committing a hostile act" by feigning death and subsequently moving his concealed arm.

Investigators weighed "multiple witness accounts, close review of video showing the incident captured by an embedded reporter and review of detailed ballistics and forensic evidence."

The incident was recorded by a television journalist embedded with the Marines. The Iraqi was among several wounded men found in a mosque that Marines said had been the source of small arms and rocket-propelled grenade fire the previous day.

The Marine approached one of the men against a wall, saying, "He's [expletive] faking he's dead. He's faking he's [expletive] dead."

The Marine raised his rifle and fired at least one shot into the wounded man, at which point a companion said, "Well, he's dead now."

When told on the tape by the reporter that the men were among those wounded in an earlier firefight at the mosque, the Marine who fired the shot said, "I didn't know, sir. I didn't know."

At the time, U.S. commanders said they were concerned the video might encourage more insurgents to fight to the death rather than surrender, and Iraqis who watched the scene on television said they were stunned.

The Marine seen on the videotape was part of a squad from the 3rd Battalion, 1st Marine Regiment.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/05/05/falluja.marine/index.html

[Redleg]

Well its very easy for you to judge after the fact - considering that you were not in the situation nor the circumstances that the young marine found himself in.

For it to be a criminal act during war - the Navy would have to determine that his intent was to shoot an unarmed and wounded enemy. What they have shown is that this marine honestly believed that the Iraqi insurgent was still a combat threat to himself and his fellow marines.

Given that the insurgents had been playing dead - and if I remember correctly - this marine's company to include him, recieved causalties from just such a method, which gives creditablity to this marine's emotion and reaction to what he precieved to be a threat.

And from what I have read on this circumstance - the Navy has been unable to show that the marine had a criminal intent to just kill any Iraqi that he saw.

[econ21]

Interesting to hear how this turned out. At the time the video was all over the TV News (at least in the UK and presumably North America) and there was a long thread on it here. It was pretty obvious from the video that the marine freaked out when he saw the man was alive - he was under strain and as the investigation said playing dead is a tactic sometimes used in war so his over-reaction is understandable[1]. I question the investigation's conclusion that it was "reasonable" to assume the man was a threat, in the sense that in an ideal world a soldier would not have freaked out and fired like that. However, I think the US soldier did see the man as a threat and I would not want to see him condemned for it. In the stress of battle, even highly trained soldiers will make mistakes and this one will be something the soldier will have to live with.

I am more disturbed by the fact that the Iraqi wounded were left unattended over night, but then again - like the shooting of the wounded Iraqi - maybe that is another of the horrors of war.

[1]I also recall someone saying - was it Andy McNabb? - that it was standard UK Army practice to put two bullets in every enemy body when entering a room, just to be sure they were dead.

[Hurin_Rules]

I understand what you're saying Redleg, but some things just don't wash. For one, if the soldier thought the Iraqi was faking, why didnt he just take a bead on him and then approach and search him for weapons? The man made no moves at all, yet at some point the soldier decided to pull the trigger. Why? If this were acceptable procedure, it would legitimize executing every wounded prisoner the US takes in this war. Secondly, on the videotape I saw, some of the Iraqis begged for their lives, with hands raised (and obviously unarmed). These were also found dead later, when the other marines moved in.

Can anyone provide a link to the videotape?

[Redleg]

I understand what you're saying Redleg, but some things just don't wash. For one, if the soldier thought the Iraqi was faking, why didnt he just take a bead on him and then approach and search him for weapons? The man made no moves at all, yet at some point the soldier decided to pull the trigger. Why? If this were acceptable procedure, it would legitimize executing every wounded prisoner the US takes in this war. Secondly, on the videotape I saw, some of the Iraqis begged for their lives, with hands raised (and obviously unarmed). These were also found dead later, when the other marines moved in.

Can anyone provide a link to the videotape?

On the take a bead on him and search - have you ever been under the stress of combat or the stress of a police officer going up to search an individual who you believe to be armed and dangerous? That might answer your question - remember this individual was shot already by an Iraqi fighter pretending to be dead.

Well I don't know all the circumstances involved - so I can only comment on the soldier that was brought forward under investigation. And it seems that the conclusion I came to many months is the same as the Navy investigators.

Your intermixing two different groups of marines that could be involved and blaming just the one marine that was captured on the video. Or at least that is how how read your comments.

[PanzerJaeger]

Good news.

War is hell and you cannot condemn a specific soldier simply because that particular part of hell happened to be caught on tape.

The media should be the ones in trouble here. It is completely ridiculous that they feel it neccessary to undermine the military whenever they can. These issues, which are a part of every conflict, must be handled by the military and out of the site of the american public if we hope to win.

What good did showing that tape 24/7 do? Why dont they show tapes of the body parts of 300 iraqis blown apart by terrorists?

The whole imbedded reporter thing was stupidity. You do not win a war against an insurgency with a camera in every unit. That type of war is inherently dirty and how are our soldiers supposed to perform if they are worried their actions will get blown up by the media on a slow news day?

[Redleg]

Good news.

War is hell and you cannot condemn a specific soldier simply because that particular part of hell happened to be caught on tape.



In this you are incorrect in my opinion PJ. The actions of the individual soldier should be questioned and it should be investigated to insure that there is no violation of the Rules of Engagement or the UCMJ done by soldiers. If soldiers believe that they will not be held accountable or responsible for their actions in war - you will find American soldier will begin to act like the criminals that some already accuse American soldiers of being. Objective review of questionable acts by soldiers in war is always warranted.


The media should be the ones in trouble here. It is completely ridiculous that they feel it neccessary to undermine the military whenever they can. These issues, which are a part of every conflict, must be handled by the military and out of the site of the american public if we hope to win.

What good did showing that tape 24/7 do? Why dont they show tapes of the body parts of 300 iraqis blown apart by terrorists?

The whole imbedded reporter thing was stupidity. You do not win a war against an insurgency with a camera in every unit. That type of war is inherently dirty and how are our soldiers supposed to perform if they are worried their actions will get blown up by the media on a slow news day?

Well I don't like the media on the battlefield - however if they can show warfare in all its ugliness - then maybe politicians will be forced to think about using armed force with a little more due dilegence before they use it.

[PanzerJaeger]

In this you are incorrect in my opinion PJ. The actions of the individual soldier should be questioned and it should be investigated to insure that there is no violation of the Rules of Engagement or the UCMJ done by soldiers. If soldiers believe that they will not be held accountable or responsible for their actions in war - you will find American soldier will begin to act like the criminals that some already accuse American soldiers of being. Objective review of questionable acts by soldiers in war is always warranted.

Remember i said:

These issues, which are a part of every conflict, must be handled by the military and out of the site of the american public if we hope to win.

I dont have a problem with bad soldiers being punished, but i cannot stand that the media puts this stuff on the 24 hour cycle and passes its own judgement on the man.

You most likely know better than I do how important these guys are to our nation and what good people the vast majority of them are. You probably also know the stresses of combat much better than me.

It is wrong in my opinion for the media to treat our military with such hostility. I can only imagine the pressure the military and even our ground troops are under with nosey reporters searching desperately for the next big story.

In ww2 they understood, but somewhere in vietnam they traded in their values when they saw how important they would seem for attacking the military. It has hurt America ever since, in my opinion.

[Spetulhu]

The whole imbedded reporter thing was stupidity. You do not win a war against an insurgency with a camera in every unit. That type of war is inherently dirty and how are our soldiers supposed to perform if they are worried their actions will get blown up by the media on a slow news day?

Embedded reporters is smart as far as the Pentagon is concerned. Now they know who is reporting in the zones, and the group with the camera can be left in the safest spot. Besides, the reporter will be dependent on the soldiers surrounding him. The heavily armed people you're supposed to report on are also supposed to keep you from getting shot while travelling in hostile areas. Hmm, I wonder if I should just let some things slide?

[Steppe Merc]

I hardly see how this is a good thing. I am glad that he was investageted, but I still think there should be some sort of repercussions or something...

[PanzerJaeger]

I am pissed off. I can only imagine how it feels to be under the boot heels of the only superpower now that it has gone truly facist.

LoL, before throwing such a hissy fit you should look at the historical context.

Allied forces often took SS men and low level Nazis "out back" and simply shot them without trial or jury. They didnt want to try to prove things against them in court.

In the pacific wounded combatants were shot and burned to death because they had a nasty habit of pulling grenades when allies tried to help them. Seems kind of similar huh?

Did that make America any more fascist? Of course not. Your fits and propaganda dont hold water. :bow:

[Redleg]

Papewaio has resigned as a moderator and all the American Facists can go FCUK themselves until they actually walk the talk of Justice to all.

Does this make you feel better about yourself Papewaio?

[Idomeneas]

Good news.

War is hell and you cannot condemn a specific soldier simply because that particular part of hell happened to be caught on tape.

The media should be the ones in trouble here. It is completely ridiculous that they feel it neccessary to undermine the military whenever they can. These issues, which are a part of every conflict, must be handled by the military and out of the site of the american public if we hope to win.

What good did showing that tape 24/7 do? Why dont they show tapes of the body parts of 300 iraqis blown apart by terrorists?

The whole imbedded reporter thing was stupidity. You do not win a war against an insurgency with a camera in every unit. That type of war is inherently dirty and how are our soldiers supposed to perform if they are worried their actions will get blown up by the media on a slow news day?

maybe by going home and let iraquis do as they please in THEIR country?

Anyway i agree with you that war is hell. When you are in the army you live in an alternate reality and people around you can affect your actions beside fear offcourse. I do not agree that showing reality is shocking. War and the actions during one are shocking by definition. Making people understand that stories full of valour in books and movies are much different than reality is not necesarily bad.

And generally speaking im not upset by the death of any soldier in iraq. Not because im hostile towards anybody but simply put they have the choice not to be there. Iraquis just have to be there and tolerate this situation, they cant do otherwise its their home.
I cant see why we try to find ideological excuses and talk over things that happens in wartime everywhere when things are simple. A countries territory was usurped under a nice excuse (WMD) and since its cost much an occupation its more convenient to make sure that a controlable political puppet will have authority. What i consider more dirty in this war are the lies not an action (invasion) that has been done through centuries by all states and races. US wanted control of Iraq and middle east for the known reasons? ok. I would prefere them to have the balls to admit it openly not giving excuses as valid as ''we went to Troy to get back Helen''.
Oh and dont tell me the ''we try to correct our mistakes'' thing cause if US were starting a policy like that i think that would spend all the time ''correcting'' interventions, dictatorships, invasions, puppet revolutions etc...

Those stuff are the important to me and not behaviours of individual soldiers who might have a bunch of psychological complexes (i cant figure who in the right mind and given lots of choices, likes to be ordered around and exchange fire in a F**** desert) or scared the shit out of him and wants to be 10000% that he will get home.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

If Amerika was fascist, we wouldn't be able to elect our leaders and it would be spelled Amerika not America.
On topic.


Good!
The marine deserved no punishment, because he was not guilty of a crime. You know who's guilty of Warcrimes? The Iraqis. The Russians. Hell even America is guilty of Warcrimes, but you know what? Who Cares? It's war, and have you ever heard the saying "All is Fair in love and War?" NOTE THE AND WAR PART! If a terrorist is viewed as a threat he should be put down. There's no question about it.
Hate America all you want, but just realize, you're the one's at fault, not us. This routinly happens around the world, yet when you find out an American does it it's the worst war crime ever, when I guarentee your own nation was guilty of it at some time.
That especially goes for you English chaps out there.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

I'm still confused about what "fcuk" means. According to wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FCUK

It's a clothing company. So I don't see how us American facists can go "clothing company" ourselves. :dizzy2:

I think my opinions most closely match those of Simon Appleton. :bow:

[Idomeneas]

Hate America all you want, but just realize, you're the one's at fault, not us.

That sounds abit kindergarden arguement. Nobody hates america. America is admired for many things. And im sure there are many nice people propably more than the usual unimaginative televangelist-maniacs that are promoted.
I love american metal, i love my american guitars, i love american graphic design and fine arts, i love the practical american ways and certainly i like many american people i know (yes even my boss). What i dont like is this ignorance reigning lately, i dont like the ''i know nothing apart the states and im proud of it'' ideology and certainly dont like to be fooled with stupid excuses (wmd) wich apparently and surprisely works on american people or at least the part that plays any role in elections. Did you ever thought making vote mandatory? In ancient Athens a citizen that didnt care about politics was considered useless.

A second thing is that the best thing for america is to accept that all good things sometime comes to an end. They cannot be the only one holding the spoon over the soup for hundreds of years like all the ex-empires. Cause simply world moves 10000 times faster now. Instead of doing desperate strategic moves maybe the Admin of Georgie ''i cant tie my shoes laces'' Bush should work with others and do nice things like signing that damned Kyoto agreement before we get fryed by sun. And stop using that stupid oil! Hydrogene is here!!!!!

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

For someone who doesn't hate America, it sounds like you hate America. Or more specifically, you hate the things in America you don't agree with. However, if I expressed similar things about someone else's country I just might be a "country basher."


Nobody hates america.
Even if you are indeed innocent of hating America, I believe you are incorrect on that matter.

[Redleg]

Hate America all you want, but just realize, you're the one's at fault, not us.

That sounds abit kindergarden arguement.

So do some other arguements against the United States - especially the one of the ones above this post.


Nobody hates america.

Could of fooled me - especially given the last post. That is an obvious hate filled comment direct at America and Americans in general




America is admired for many things. And im sure there are many nice people propably more than the usual unimaginative televangelist-maniacs that are promoted.
I love american metal, i love my american guitars, i love american graphic design and fine arts, i love the practical american ways and certainly i like many american people i know (yes even my boss).


Goood



What i dont like is this ignorance reigning lately, i dont like the ''i know nothing apart the states and im proud of it'' ideology and certainly dont like to be fooled with stupid excuses (wmd) wich apparently and surprisely works on american people or at least the part that plays any role in elections. Did you ever thought making vote mandatory? In ancient Athens a citizen that didnt care about politics was considered useless.


LOL - care to see quess how many chemical rounds I saw in 1991 - and how many a friend of mine saw back in 1996. Yep they might have all been destoried before the invasion - but Saddam and his regime sure did fool a lot of intelligence services.



A second thing is that the best thing for america is to accept that all good things sometime comes to an end. They cannot be the only one holding the spoon over the soup for hundreds of years like all the ex-empires. Cause simply world moves 10000 times faster now. Instead of doing desperate strategic moves maybe the Admin of Georgie ''i cant tie my shoes laces'' Bush should work with others and do nice things like signing that damned Kyoto agreement before we get fryed by sun. And stop using that stupid oil! Hydrogene is here!!!!!

Kyoto will do nothing to halt the emmission of green house gases - because it does not apply the measures across all nations - only the already developed. Yep a great piece of work for the United States to sign - hell President Bush could sign the treaty - but it will never be ratified in the Congress.

Bring out the technology - and I will buy a hydrogen car. However once again I don't see Europe spending a lot of money in changing out gasoline and fossile burning fuel vehicles for hydrogen either.

Other nations can by all means try to overtake the United States in economics, military and political influence and prestige. But like all nations, the United States has the right and the ability to protect its citizens and serve our interests first. Just like your nation does.

[Idomeneas]

For someone who doesn't hate America, it sounds like you hate America. Or more specifically, you hate the things in America you don't agree with. However, if I expressed similar things about someone else's country I just might be a "country basher."


Even if you are indeed innocent of hating America, I believe you are incorrect on that matter.


Maybe the ancient greek saying ''Know yourself'' can help you see some things that youdont want to admit. And i believe that the things i said i like are more representative of american culture than idiotic policies and politicians. I try to speak true and dont hide behind my finger. If you wanna characterize me ''country basher'' for this its fine by me.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

I apologize, I forgot that it is my duty to accept all foreign criticisms of the US meekly, and adore the customs and practices of all members of the United Nations. For my transgressions, I shall do ten years of penance with a group of Peacekeepers in a desolate but more-righteous-than-the-US country. :bow:

[Idomeneas]

Could of fooled me - especially given the last post. That is an obvious hate filled comment direct at America and Americans in general

well it means anything that i dont care to fool or not fool you and just speak my mind without caring how others might take it?



LOL - care to see quess how many chemical rounds I saw in 1991 - and how many a friend of mine saw back in 1996. Yep they might have all been destoried before the invasion - but Saddam and his regime sure did fool a lot of intelligence services.

I wonder who was his mentor...



Kyoto will do nothing to halt the emmission of green house gases - because it does not apply the measures across all nations - only the already developed. Yep a great piece of work for the United States to sign - hell President Bush could sign the treaty - but it will never be ratified in the Congress.

yeap cause its all about the money

Bring out the technology - and I will buy a hydrogen car. However once again I don't see Europe spending a lot of money in changing out gasoline and fossile burning fuel vehicles for hydrogen either.

The technology is here even BP is starting experimental station in iceland(? not sure)

Other nations can by all means try to overtake the United States in economics, military and political influence and prestige. But like all nations, the United States has the right and the ability to protect its citizens and serve our interests first. Just like your nation does.

That reasons I can accept but not the holly-just-antiterrorism-war crap.

[Idomeneas]

I apologize, I forgot that it is my duty to accept all foreign criticisms of the US meekly, and adore the customs and practices of all members of the United Nations. For my transgressions, I shall do ten years of penance with a group of Peacekeepers in a desolate but more-righteous-than-the-US country. :bow:

Apology accepted

[Idomeneas]

KΑΛΗΝΥΧΤΑ (goodnight) to all. Its 4:00 here and some brochures are waiting to be done tommorow.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

How does he make such funky letters? :book:

[|OCS|Virus]

I see nothing wrong with what he did. I know I will probably catch some flak for that. But its a war, if I thought someone was pretending to be dead and MIGHT have a gun, I would shoot him in a heartbeat, before he even had a chance to think about his next move. If I thought that there was any way in hell he could put a bullet in me or one of my commrades I wouldn't even hesitate. I don't care how dead he looks, if I wasn't sure you could put money on it that I would make sure. However may I say in my defence before everyone gets all pissy, if I saw that he clearly did not have a gun I would take him into my custody provided it did not put me or anyone else in danger.

[Kanamori]

"wich apparently and surprisely works on american people or at least the part that plays any role in elections. Did you ever thought making vote mandatory?"

Well, I voted, but I didn't vote for President at all (they were both just too ugly for me to be comfortable with them representing me). Mandatory voting works to get all the people that don't give a damn out; yeah, I want that :dizzy2:

"In ancient Athens a citizen that didnt care about politics was considered useless."

Super, Democracies are stupid as hell, on a large scale. Athens only worked because it was one small city they kept the elite to ruling. If everyone didn't give a shit about politics, the world would be better off.

[bmolsson]

Right or wrong. This is a pretty clear signal to the insurgents in Iraq that there are no rules. I don't think that any terrorist that have seen this will ever surrender, since it will not lead to any mercy.
In a way this is more to put the cards on the table. Everyone now knows the rules of the game.......

[Xiahou]

I understand what you're saying Redleg, but some things just don't wash. For one, if the soldier thought the Iraqi was faking, why didnt he just take a bead on him and then approach and search him for weapons?
Sure, that sounds like a great idea.. but think about it. Was his concern really that the man was hiding a gun? If so, your idea is a great one and they probably would do that if it were the case. But, I think what had been happening was more of a booby trap scenario. Insurgents would fake being dead until as many soldiers as possible are near them and then pull the pin on a grenade or push a detonator- whatever. In that case, having soldiers approach him and attempt to search him would be exactly what a suicide bomber would want.


Right or wrong. This is a pretty clear signal to the insurgents in Iraq that there are no rules. I don't think that any terrorist that have seen this will ever surrender, since it will not lead to any mercy. I really don't think we have to worry about that. They haven't been following any rules at all from day one.


Papewaio has resigned as a moderator and all the American Facists can go FCUK themselves until they actually walk the talk of Justice to all.
Someone's been bottling up their feelings... ~:eek:

[PanzerJaeger]

I see nothing wrong with what he did. I know I will probably catch some flak for that. But its a war, if I thought someone was pretending to be dead and MIGHT have a gun, I would shoot him in a heartbeat, before he even had a chance to think about his next move.

Some people understand the deadly nature of war and others think its some kind of game with clear cut rules and they feel the need to act as referees. :no:

[Idomeneas]

How does he make such funky letters? :book:

~:) The funky letters were used many many many many many many thousands of year before some people manage to built their first... tent ~:cool: ~D

[Byzantine Prince]

The technology is here even BP is starting experimental station in iceland(? not sure)

No I'm not... I mean how did you know?!?!? :sneaky:

[Idomeneas]

No I'm not... I mean how did you know?!?!? :sneaky:

Group ''E'' told me ~;)

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

The funky letters were used many many many many many many thousands of year before some people manage to built their first... tent

I was thinking more along the lines of "what keys is he pressing." :bow:

[Steppe Merc]

The funky letters were used many many many many many many thousands of year before some people manage to built their first... tent
Very funny. No culture ever was more or less barbaric, despite what many Greek and Latin philes would say. Just because some people didn't waste a lot of time on huge buildings didn't make them stupid, or barbaric....

[bmolsson]

Just because some people didn't waste a lot of time on huge buildings didn't make them stupid, or barbaric....


Some would argue that the people that wasted a lot of time on huge buildings where stupid and barbaric though..... ~;)

[Idomeneas]

Very funny. No culture ever was more or less barbaric, despite what many Greek and Latin philes would say. Just because some people didn't waste a lot of time on huge buildings didn't make them stupid, or barbaric....

Im not implying that some cultures are not important but certainly there are cultures that are MORE important. Anyway its a tricky subject and the only way to see it objectivelly is to stay to the historical facts of progress.

For example the letters you use to write on keyboard are there because of the ''huge building guys'' not the ''freezing in the cold'' ones ~:cheers:

[Hurin_Rules]

For example the letters you use to write on keyboard are there because of the ''huge building guys'' not the ''freezing in the cold'' ones ~:cheers:

True, but the language you are writing those letters in is about an equal, 50-50 mix of the languages of the 'huge building guys' and the 'freezing in the cold' guys.

[Idomeneas]

True, but the language you are writing those letters in is about an equal, 50-50 mix of the languages of the 'huge building guys' and the 'freezing in the cold' guys.

Well if 'freezing in the cold' guys couldnt keep at least some everyday words that would be total cultural failure wouldnt be?

Anyway lets not argue about this.
~:cheers:

[Hurin_Rules]

Anyway lets not argue about this.
~:cheers:

Ok. ~:cheers:

[Steppe Merc]

Mmm. Well to me, the freezing in the cold people are far more interesting, and some freezing in the cold people had a far bigger impact than some huge building guys. But never mind.

[Idomeneas]

Mmm. Well to me, the freezing in the cold people are far more interesting, and some freezing in the cold people had a far bigger impact than some huge building guys. But never mind.


Its ok i also like many ''freezing'' cultures. Especially Celtic and Skandinavian mythology i find the most interesting along with Greek offcourse. But when i try to put myself in a past era with no romantic thoughts i understand how big were the achievements of the most influencing cultures. A citizen of Athens or Rome or Alexandria etc had much more chances for a better life, and better conditions than somebody in the woods of the north. Thats why in my opinion invading people that brought rome down and the end of ancient times didnt hated rome but wanted to be part of it.