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Gawain of Orkeny
05-10-2005, 01:25
U.S. Gov Info / Resources
Abraham Lincoln a Racist?
Part 1: Black American historian presents evidence

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In his new book, Forced Into Glory: Abraham Lincoln's White Dream, black American author, Lerone Bennett, presents historic evidence supporting the theory that Abraham Lincoln was, in fact, a devoted racist harboring a life-long desire to see all black Americans deported to Africa.

Bennett suggests that as a young politician in Illinois, Lincoln regularly used racial slurs in speeches, told racial jokes to his black servants, and vocally opposed any new laws that would have bettered the lives of black Americans.

Key to Bennett's thesis is the 1863 Emancipation Proclamation which, Bennett argues, Lincoln was forced into issuing by the powerful abolitionist wing of his own party. Bennett asserts that Lincoln carefully worded the document to apply only to the rebel Southern states, which were not under Union control at the time, thus resulting in an Emancipation Proclamation that did not in itself free a single slave.

At one point, Bennett quotes William Henry Seward, Lincoln's secretary of state, who referred to the proclamation as a hollow, meaningless document showing no more than, "our sympathy with the slaves by emancipating the slaves where we cannot reach them and holding them in bondage where we can set them free."

Henry Clay Whitney, a close friend of Lincoln, is quoted by Bennett as saying the proclamation was "not the end designed by him (Lincoln), but only the means to the end, the end being the deportation of the slaves and the payment for them to their masters - at least to those who were loyal."

Bennett asserts that Lincoln often put forth plans for deporting the slaves to Africa both before and during his presidency.

The tone of Forced Into Glory: Abraham Lincoln's White Dream is decidedly angry, as if Bennett feels betrayed by what he calls the "myth" of Abraham Lincoln.

"No other American story is so enduring. No other American story is so comforting. No other American story is so false." -- Lerone Bennett, Forced Into Glory: Abraham Lincoln's White Dream.


Your thoughts

Heres someone elses thoughts on the matter.


1. Southern secession was philosophically sound, legal, and Constitutionally defensible.
2. Abraham Lincoln was a racist, tyrant, traitor, warmonger, and war criminal.
3. The North was not much better than the South when it came to the race question.

Southern secession was philosophically sound, legal, and Constitutionally defensible

This determination was made through a reading of the 10th Amendment, which specifically states:



The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

Even today, there is still no clause in the Constitution forbidding secession nor is there a clause granting the federal government the authority to prevent secession.

The idea that Southern secession was justified was supported by many:

a) William Rawe, author of A View of the Constituion which, until 1861, was the constitutional law textbook used by West Point. In chapter 32, Rawe expressly recognized the right of secession. In other words, on the eve of the outbreak of the War Between the States, the federal government itself was teaching its military officers that the right of secession was legitimate.

cool.gif St. George Tucker in 1803 published an American edition of the famous legal scholar William Gladstone’s Commentaries. In that edition, Tucker argued that the right of secession can be derived from 2 standpoints:

i) The states first seceded from Britain. Therefore, according to historical precedent, states have the right to secede from the Union.

ii) States have the obligation to secede from the Union should the Union violate the Constitution. Doing so would be demonstrating the utmost respect for the Constitution.

c) Thomas Jefferson, 3rd president of the US, author of the Declaration of Independence which read in part: "government rests upon the consent of the governed", responded to the Alien and Sedition Acts of 1798 by authoring the Kentucky and Virginia resolutions proclaiming the right of secession from tyrannical governments.

d) John Quincy Adams, 6th president of the US, supported the secessionist movement of the New England states during the War of 1812. The argument of the New England states was that the federal government had failed in its obligation to defend the country from foreign aggression. (as represented by British attack on Washington D.C.) That failure signified that the federal government was no longer competent in abiding by its obligations as specified by the Constitution.

e) Former Supreme Court Chief Justice Joseph Story, who also supported the right of New England states to secede during the War of 1812.

f) Franklin Pierce, 14th president of the US, was almost arrested when he argued that Lincoln’s waging of the Civil War was unconstitutional.

g) James Buchanan, 15th president of the US, faulted Lincoln for provoking the South into war.

h) John Tyler, 10th president of the US, signaled his disapproval of Lincoln’s policies most dramatically by serving in the Confederate House of Representatives.

i) Lord Acton, the British and Catholic intellectual, once wrote to Confederate General Robert E. Lee:



I saw in States Rights the only availing check upon the absolutism of the sovereign will, and secession filled me with hope, not as the destruction but as the redemption of Democracy.... I deemed that you were fighting the battles of our liberty, our progress, and our civilization; and I mourn for the stake which was lost at Richmond more deeply than I rejoice over that which was saved at Waterloo.

j) John C. Calhoun, former Vice President of the US, supported South Carolina’s proclamation of its right of secession during the Nullification crisis.

Indeed, isn’t it an irony that Lincoln decided to accept West Virginia’s secession from Virginia? And how did Lincoln explain this irony:



[T]here is still difference enough between secession against the constitution, and secession in favor of the constitution.

A far cry from his statement in his First Inaugural Address where he stated that:



,,,the central idea of secession, is the essence of anarchy.

Instead of condemning secession as a rule, Lincoln chose to condemn only a certain kind of secession.

During the phase of Reconstruction, Congress asserted that the South should be treated like conquered enemy territory. But to do so, the assumption must be that the South successfully seceded. If so, then Lincoln's reasoning for the war, namely that it was an attempt by the central government to put down a rebellion, does not hold. If Lincoln's reasoning holds, then the Congressional Reconstruction plan would be unreasonable.

Abraham Lincoln was a racist, tyrant, traitor, warmonger, and war criminal

1. On 4/27/1861, Lincoln suspended habeas corpus. Later that year, the Supreme Court ruled, in Ex Parte Merryman that Lincoln’s suspension of habeas corpus was illegal, consistent with former Chief Justice John Marshall’s (who ruled in Marbury v. Maryland in 1803 establishing judicial review) 1807 ruling in Ex Parte Bollman and Swartwout that suspension of habeas corpus was a power vested only in the Congress.

St. George Tucker already wrote years earlier in support of the Supreme Court’s interpretation:



In England the benefit of this important writ can only be suspended by authority of parliament. It has been done several times of late years, both in England and in Ireland, to the great oppression of the subject…In the United States, it can be suspended, only, by the authority of congress; but not whenever congress may think proper; for it cannot be suspended, unless in cases of actual rebellion, or invasion. A suspension under any other circumstances, whatever might be the pretext, would be unconstitutional, and consequently must be disregarded by those whose duty it is to grant the writ.

And how did Lincoln respond to this ruling? Not well. He ordered the US Army not to release Merryman in violation of the order of the Supreme Court. Contrast that with United States v. Nixon when President Nixon turned over the White House tapes once ordered to do so by the Supreme Court.

30,000 Northern Union citizens were tried by military courts.

2. Wrongful imprisonment of 2 US Congressmen.

Congressman Clement Valladingham of Ohio was arrested and later exiled over anti-war remarks he made during his campaign for the governorship of Ohio.

To preempt a possible secession by Maryland, Lincoln arrested 31 of its state legislators, the mayor of Baltimore (then 3rd largest city in the country), and one of its Congressman along with a number of newspaper publishers and editors.

3. On 4/19/1861, Lincoln ordered a blockade of Southern ports, an act of war without an explicit declaration of war from Congress.

4. On 4/20/1861, Lincoln ordered the Secretary of the Treasury to spend money for defense without Congressional authorization, a violation of Article I, Section IX of the Constitution.

5. On 5/3/1861, Lincoln enlarged the army and navy by calling for volunteers, thus violating Constitutional separation of powers which explicitly stated that it is Congress that reserves the power to raise and maintain the military.

Considering all the above, is it surprising that the Georgia legislature passed a resolution in 1864 referring to Lincoln’s actions as:



the usurpations and tyrannies, which characterize the Government of our enemy, under the ever-recurring and ever-false plea of the necessities of war

6. In a speech given in 1858 during the Lincoln-Douglass debates, Lincoln stated:



I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races [the crowd applauds] – that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people, and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the black and white races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race….

I am not in favor of Negro citizenship.

Answering a question about whether individual states have the Constitutional power to confer citizenship upon blacks, Lincoln replied:



If the state of Illinois had that power I should be opposed to the exercise of it.

Not once during the debates did Lincoln show his disapproval of Illinois’s black codes, which forbade free blacks to vote, hold public office, serve as jurors, or intermarry with whites.

In his 1862 letter to the New York Daily Tribune. Lincoln wrote:



My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and it is not either to save or destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone, I would also do that. What I do about slavery and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union.

As a member of the Illinois legislature in 1837, Lincoln stated:



[T]he institution of slavery is founded on both injustice and bad policy; but that the promulgation of abolitionist doctrines tends rather to increase than to abate its evils.

Hmm...abolition is worse than slavery. Saith Lincoln.

Lincoln had this to say about the radical segregationist John Brown:



An enthusiast broods over the oppression of a people till he fancies himself commissioned by Heaven to liberate them.

Hardly a ringing endorsement.

Indeed, the Emancipation Proclamation itself was a brilliant piece of realist calculation. It freed slaves from the South, something that the Union was unable to enforce fully at the time. It made no mention of slavery in the border states, whose loyalty Lincoln needed. It even allowed for the Union armies to retain freed slaves to work for the Union army.

Lincoln supported Illinois’s harsh Jim Crow laws, opposed civil rights for blacks, advocated the colonization of blacks abroad, fought and frustrated abolitionists, endorsed the Fugitive Slave Act, pandered to voters’ anti-black prejudices, privately ridiculed blacks, freely used racial epithets, delayed taking steps against slavery, put consideration for slaveowners ahead of justice for slaves, and actually tried, at crucial points, to save slavery.

While he was a lawyer, Lincoln attempted to help a slaveholder recover his runaway slave. (For the record, Lincoln lost the case.) Lincoln never represented a runaway slave.

The case was Matson v. Rutherford (1847). It involved a slave owner named Robert Matson claiming return of fugitive slaves. Matson was from Kentucky and brought slaves to Coles County, Illinois, for part of the year. Jane Bryant escaped with her four children from the Coles County plantation and found refuge with local abolitionists. They were soon after found and jailed as fugitive slaves.

Given Lincoln’s 1837 description of slavery as "founded on both injustice and bad policy" and his 1841 advocacy, one would guess he came to aid of the runaways. In fact, Lincoln represented Matson in his desire to re-enslave Bryant and her children. He predicated his argument upon Illinois law that allowed ownership in slaves to be maintained if they were brought into the state in transit. The Illinois circuit court was unconvinced.

As further irony, the attorney who defended Matson with Lincoln was Usher F. Linder, who as Illinois Attorney General had encouraged the mob that murdered abolitionist Elijah Lovejoy in 1837.

Oh, and let’s not forget that Lincoln was most certainly not compelled to represent Matson.

Being consistent with his racist views, in 1862, Lincoln requested Congress to pass a Constitutional amendment encouraging black emigration from the US. In his request, he stated:



I cannot make it better known than it already is, that I strongly favor colonization.

Lincoln’s record is of a person who staunchly believed in the superiority of the white race above the black race, that the 2 can never coexist peacefully, and that the best solution is to transfer blacks out of the US:



The enterprise is a difficult one, but ‘where there is a will there is a way,’ and what colonization needs most is a hearty will.

In his eulogy for Henry Clay, Lincoln suggested that if blacks could be completely transported from the US, it would be Clay’s greatest legacy.

7. The number of battlefield fatalities during the Civil War was 620,000 dead. That doesn’t include 50,000 Southern civilians killed. By the end of the war, 25% of all Southern males between ages 20 – 40 were killed.

Lincoln orchestrated a war that was incredibly brutal. The purpose, as stated by General Sherman during his "march to the sea" was to cause such suffering on the part of Southern civilians that would break their spirit.

Northern tactics violated the Geneva Convention of 1863 and Lincoln’s own military code of conduct, the Lieber Code. (named after Columbia University law professor Francis Lieber). During the war, federal troops plundered and pillaged the South, inaugurating modern warfare, when the civilian population, traditionally ignored by professional armies, becomes the target.

Beginning in 1861, Southern civilians were taken as hostage and shot in retaliation for guerilla attacks. As Colonel John Beatty warned the residents of Paint Rock, Alabama:



Every time the telegraph wire is cut we would burn a house; every time a train was fired upon we would hang a man; and we would continue to do this until every house was burned and every man hanged between Decatur and Bridgeport.

The town of Paint Rock was burned to the ground.

In 1862 General John Pope declared that all Southern men who remained within the federal army’s lines (mostly elderly men) and who wished to remain in their homes must take a loyalty oath to the federal government (i.e., to the Lincoln administration). Anyone taking such an oath who was later suspected of being "disloyal" would be shot. (Remember, habeas corpus was no longer there to protect them.) In New Orleans, General Benjamin Butler hanged a man for taking down a US flag. Butler was also one of Lincoln’s favorite generals.

Early in the war the towns of Randolph, Tennessee, and Jackson and Meridian, Mississippi, were burned to the ground by General William T. Sherman, who declared that to all secessionists, women and children included, "death is mercy." The bombardment of cities was considered beyond the bounds of international law and morality in the 1860s, but Lincoln paid no attention to such restrictions. Sherman, of course, was his second favorite general next to Grant.

During the bombardment of Atlanta, Sherman’s chief engineer, Captain O.M. Poe, implored Sherman to stop the bombing of the undefended city because of the grotesque spectacle of the corpses of women and children in the streets. Sherman coldly told him that such scenes were exactly what he wanted. After destroying 90 percent of the city the federal army evicted all the remaining residents from their homes just as winter was settling in.

Sherman’s (and Lincoln’s) strategy was to terrorize the civilian population. For example, in 1864 Sherman wrote to a subordinate, General Louis D. Watkins: "Send over about Fairmount and Adairsville [Georgia], burn ten or twelve houses of known secessionists, kill a few at random, and let it be known that it will be repeated every time a train is fired upon ...."

After Sherman completed his "March to the Sea" he met with Lincoln and Grant on the James River in Virginia. "Lincoln wanted to know about Sherman’s marches," writes Sherman biographer John F. Marzalek, "particularly enjoying stories about the bummers," as Sherman’s plundering and pillaging soldiers were called.

When one contrasts Northern actions during the war v. Southern actions, one can reach no other conclusion other than that the South acted with remarkable restraint, considering the vicious Northern invasion being launched against their country.

The Civil War began on May 27, 1861, when Lincoln ordered the federal army to invade Virginia. I deliberately neglected to mention the Southern seizure of Fort Sumter because the fort was within Confederate territory. Indeed, not only was there no fatalities from the seizure of Fort Sumter, the South even allowed their POWs to leave in peace.

8. Lincoln deliberately rejected all efforts to avoid war.

a) Even before Fort Sumter, the Confederate government dispatched commissioners to Washington to negotiate for the purchase, by the Confederacy, of federal property in the South. Lincoln rejected the proposal.

cool.gif Lincoln also rejected an attempt by Emperor Napoleon III of France to mediate.

The North was not much better than the South when it comes to the race question.

According to professor of history at Yale, C. Vann Woodward:



By 1830 slavery was virtually abolished by one means or another throughout the North, with only about 3500 Negroes remaining in bondage in the nominally free states...For all that, the Northern Negro was made painfully and constantly aware that he lived in a society dedicated to the doctrine of white supremacy and Negro inferiority. The major political parties...made sure in numerous ways that the Negro understood his ‘place’ and that he was severely confined to it. One of these ways was segregation, and with the backing of legal and extra-legal codes, the system permeated all aspects of Negro life in the free states by 1860.

Perhaps it can be said that the South was looking at an example set by its brothers up North when it imposed its Jim Crow laws after the Civil War.

Woodward continued:



Generally speaking, the farther west the Negro went in the free states the harsher he found the proscription and segregation. Indiana, Illinois, and Oregon incorporated in their constitutions provisions restricting the admission of Negroes to their borders, and most states carved from the old Northwest Territory either barred Negroes in some degree or required that they post bond guaranteeing good behavior. Alexis de Tocqueville was amazed at the depth of racial bias he encountered in the North. ‘The prejudice of race,’ he wrote, ‘appears to be stronger in the states that have abolished slavery than in those where it still exists; and nowhere is it so intolerant as in those states where servitude has never been known.’... [Emphasis mine]

Only 6 percent of the Northern Negroes lived in the five states – Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Vermont, Maine, and Rhode Island – that by 1860 permitted them to vote. The Negro’s rights were curtailed in the courts as well as at the polls. By custom or by law Negroes were excluded from jury service throughout the North. Only in Massachusetts, and there not until 1855, were they admitted as jurors. Five Western states prohibited Negro testimony in cases where a white man was a party. The ban against Negro jurors, witnesses, and judges, as well as the economic degradation of the race, help to explain the disproportionate numbers of Negroes in Northern prisons and the heavy limitations on the protection of Negro life, liberty, and property.

[snip]

It is clear that when its victory was complete and the time came, the North was not in the best possible position to instruct the South, either by precedent and example, or by force of conviction, on the implementation of what eventually became one of the professed war aims of the Union cause – racial equality.

Indeed, the scholar Jeffrey Rogers Hummel, noted that soon after the war, 5 Northern states voted to deny blacks suffrage.

Conclusion

A presidential inauguration requires the would-be president to swear an oath to defend the Constitution. Far from defending the Constitution, Lincoln trashed it. The Constitution, for Lincoln, was a piece of paper to be tossed aside when it did not suit him. If the Constitution had been scrupulously observed, perhaps the entire tragedy could've been avoided.

One might ask: Suppose if the Confederacy seceded without incident, what about the African-Americans?

To which I answer: Slavery might be abolished, not as soon as 1865, perhaps. Later, but with much less bloodshed and animosity.

A few years ago, I was reading a book on the Civil War. One of its passages will never fade from my memory:



On July 4th, 1863, the Confederate garrison at Vicksburg surrendered to the Union army under General Grant.

Vicksburg did not celebrate the 4th of July for the next 78 years.

Other than the heavy casualties, the war embittered relations between North and South for decades to come. The war was a serious disruption to people's lives. Just as consequential is the massive expansion of federal power.

One aspect of the cost of the war is perhaps, in the context of all the above, the most inconsequential. Perhaps because of that, it is also most easily gauged. Federal loans and taxes to finance the war reached $3 billion. Interest on the war debt was $2.8 billion. The South borrowed more than $2 billion and lost far more in terms of property damage. Estimated total cost of the war is $20 billion, 5 times more than federal expenditures since its creation until 1861. (Remember, we're talking about 1861 dollars. In today's currency, that would equal about $400 billion.)

The consequences of the Civil War were dreadful, to put it lightly. For perhaps the first time in the history of warfare, the idea that a civilian population should be tortured in order to press them to surrender has been introduced as an acceptable doctrine of the conduct of warfare. The following 20th century saw that doctrine in full swing, with terrible consequences for all to see. No longer do professional armies confine their targets to their counterparts on the other side. Now civilians are regarded as fair game. It is no wonder that some historians suggested that the Civil War is the real dress rehearsal for WWI.
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PanzerJaeger
05-10-2005, 01:52
Of course he was a racist, almost everyone was back then.

He was simply one of those benevolent racists. He felt that although blacks were of course dumber and more animalistic than whites, they shouldnt be treated as poorly as they were in the south.

Beirut
05-10-2005, 02:21
Do you realize that post had over 4000 words?

I'm all for accurate information, but brevity, espescially in a forum such as this, is sometimes a good thing. ~;)

discovery1
05-10-2005, 02:36
Or course. Proabably all but the most hard core abolitionist were. I think the only reasons he dropped the idea of colonization was difficulty in implimentation and the usefulness of ex-slave manpower for the war.

Alexander the Pretty Good
05-10-2005, 02:45
Awwww....

You're ripping up one of my childhood heroes...

:bigcry:

But that is seriously long, Gawain.

GoreBag
05-10-2005, 02:50
Yeah, it is long. I didn't even read it.

I did hear a little while ago that Lincoln only wanted the black vote, though.

Byzantine Prince
05-10-2005, 03:02
I beleave so was John A. Mcdonald of Canada against the chinese. He used them almost as slaves and alo tof them died building the railroads. The thing is though, I blame Chrsistianity for this type of thinking at this day and age(200-300 wasn't that long ago). There's parts of the Bible that condone slavery, which is why it remained that rampant for that long. Ahhh, if only liberals ruled the world back then. :smitten:

GoreBag
05-10-2005, 03:18
I beleave so was John A. Mcdonald of Canada against the chinese. He used them almost as slaves and alo tof them died building the railroads. The thing is though, I blame Chrsistianity for this type of thinking at this day and age(200-300 wasn't that long ago). There's parts of the Bible that condone slavery, which is why it remained that rampant for that long. Ahhh, if only liberals ruled the world back then. :smitten:

Oh, that's most likely. He also refused to call himself Canadian. Born an Brit, died a Brit, according to him.

Laridus Konivaich
05-10-2005, 03:21
Zeitgeist ~;)

Gawain of Orkeny
05-10-2005, 03:21
. The thing is though, I blame Chrsistianity for this type of thinking at this day and age(200-300 wasn't that long ago). There's parts of the Bible that condone slavery, which is why it remained that rampant for that long. Ahhh, if only liberals ruled the world back then

How is it Christianitys fault. They didnt invent slavery and it was much more prevelant before chrisianity. I cant even find slavery mentioned in the bible other than to describe a persons status. Even then it refers to masters and servants. This could be seen as employers and workers in todays lingo. I belive you can find reffereneces in the Koran also.

discovery1
05-10-2005, 03:31
Doesn't the Old Testiment( Not the New Testiment so it's not Christianity's fault) have something about how to sell your family members into slavery? And proably a lot of other lovely things that came with the times.

Byzantine Prince
05-10-2005, 03:37
How is it Christianitys fault. They didnt invent slavery and it was much more prevelant before chrisianity.
I didn't say Christians invented slavery. Why do you troll? Do you find satisfaction in making these types of irrational statements?


I cant even find slavery mentioned in the bible other than to describe a persons status.
I could find at least one mention of condoned slavery in the bible. If you want I could try and find it. ~:cheers:

This is partly why slavery of blacks was moral till so late everywhere in Christian countries.

bmolsson
05-10-2005, 03:55
No reason to argue about this, after all he is not running for another term is he..... ~;)

Gawain of Orkeny
05-10-2005, 03:58
I didn't say Christians invented slavery. Why do you troll? Do you find satisfaction in making these types of irrational statements?

Oh aint that cute ~;) You call that a troll? You said you blamed Christianity . I asked you why as it want them who invented it. Whats irrational here other than your response?


I could find at least one mention of condoned slavery in the bible. If you want I could try and find it.

Be my guest. I think the best you will come up with is something like this


Ephesians 6:5-9: "Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ; Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart; With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men: Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free. And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him."

But again it says servants not slaves. But lets say its slaves. Hes not condoning slavery but it has and always will be a condition of man unfourtunatly. He saying basicly for everyone to respect eachother. Its like give unto Ceasar that which id Ceasars and unto god that which is gods. I wonder what percentage of the Roman worlds population were slaves back then?

Laridus Konivaich
05-10-2005, 04:27
But that might just be the translation, in many languages there was not a separate word for servant and slave, so it would be translated based on the situation, but they probably were slaves.

Spetulhu
05-10-2005, 06:03
The NT might not be about slavery, but surely the OT is? Attack enemy city, kill all men, take the women and children as slaves. Everyone nearby is eventually slain or enslaved by the Chosen People of Jahve.

PanzerJaeger
05-10-2005, 06:08
No reason to argue about this, after all he is not running for another term is he.....

Pretty good one.. :laugh4:

Gawain of Orkeny
05-10-2005, 07:37
No reason to argue about this, after all he is not running for another term is he.....


No we have term limits now and he had his two .

lancelot
05-10-2005, 13:20
Very interesting post Gwain!

Seems an open and shut case to me.

It seems Lincoln was indeed a political opportunist of the worst kind, who would say and do almost anything to carry through his 'policies'

Hardly a beacon of democracy..

Kanamori
05-10-2005, 15:09
Yeah, most were quite racist. Many opposed slavery just to spite the South, as part of the power struggle between North and South, back in the day.

"This is partly why slavery of blacks was moral till so late everywhere in Christian countries."

Actually, it is quite the opposite: Christianity is probably most responsible for the end of slavery, after the struggle between Northern and Southern power. Even then, though, the religious abolitionists were against slavery, because they thought it was bad for their character, in light of The Bible, not because they thought it was bad for the slaves.

I'd rather have a long article that was more articulate than a short one that does not represent an issue well.


"30,000 Northern Union citizens were tried by military courts."

Most of them were trying to skip draft, or they were people paid to be substitutes for more than one person.


"On 5/3/1861, Lincoln enlarged the army and navy by calling for volunteers, thus violating Constitutional separation of powers which explicitly stated that it is Congress that reserves the power to raise and maintain the military."

And if he wouldn't have done that, the Union may have folded quickly. Congress knew and didn't intervene, because it was faster than they would've been able to do it.


"'[T]he institution of slavery is founded on both injustice and bad policy; but that the promulgation of abolitionist doctrines tends rather to increase than to abate its evils.'


"Hmm...abolition is worse than slavery. Saith Lincoln."

Not quite in that context, he is saying that the abolitionists made the South more resilient to moderate change, by pushing for only "radical" change (a view that was common among Northeners).


"Lincoln had this to say about the radical segregationist John Brown:

'An enthusiast broods over the oppression of a people till he fancies himself commissioned by Heaven to liberate them.'

Hardly a ringing endorsement."

John Brown was a radical, lawless, and cold-murderer who hacked the limbs off of helpless people and encouraged his sons to do so too. He hardly desevers endorsement.

Many of the low-key abolitionists, like Lincoln, wanted slaves to just stay out of America, and Liberia was started as a colony for them in Africa earlier. Most white abolitionists didn't want their equality, they just wanted them away, and to weaken the South politically.

Possibly without the questionable and less than noble things he did, the Civil War would have been lost by the Union, and the US would be much different, possibly non-existent, than it is today. Because he only forbade slavery in the Southern, rebelling, states, he maintained the necessary allegiance of the border states. While maintaining their allegiance, the proclamation kept Britain from interfering in favor of the South more than it was already. The expulsion of the copperheads may have helped keep the Union live. It should not be percieved that I am championing Lincoln, I am only clarifying, but without him the Union may have ceased to exist. This is what he should be remembered for, and this is why he was given martyrdom that is not consistent with his views on slavery; people want an angel to look to when some "good" has come. He was more practicle than he was principled.

Ironside
05-10-2005, 15:24
I beleave so was John A. Mcdonald of Canada against the chinese. He used them almost as slaves and alo tof them died building the railroads. The thing is though, I blame Chrsistianity for this type of thinking at this day and age(200-300 wasn't that long ago). There's parts of the Bible that condone slavery, which is why it remained that rampant for that long. Ahhh, if only liberals ruled the world back then. :smitten:

Actually do people have a defense in Christianity that they don't without it. The Christian God (not the Jewish one AFAIK) does give all people the same value, and that gives some hampering on the "superiority of races/people" idea.

You're right when compairing to modern liberals though. But parts of that transistion process was quite dark.

Slavery comes from greed. Or atleast the todays slavery.

Idaho
05-10-2005, 15:59
American slavery was a particularly brutal form of slavery. Few other examples of slavery in history have the slave as 'dumb property' with no rights at all. Generally slavery throughout history has been a kind of bonded labour, where the slave had basic rights and social status within the family or tribe of the master.

In Africa selling yourself into slavery was a viable social and economic proposition. It would give money to your family and would make you a part of the head man's tribe. It was like joining a company... of sorts.

Byzantine Prince
05-10-2005, 17:13
Actually do people have a defense in Christianity that they don't without it. The Christian God (not the Jewish one AFAIK) does give all people the same value, and that gives some hampering on the "superiority of races/people" idea.

You're right when compairing to modern liberals though. But parts of that transistion process was quite dark.

Slavery comes from greed. Or atleast the todays slavery.
Yeah and it would seem that greed is also a sin but in America and Europe greed has been rampant even by the church(by them raising taxes or whatever they're called). It has been justified because the Bible is enormously flawd, I don't have time to serach everything but some time ago someone did that for me and I couldn't beleave all the crap that would be allowed easily. Slavery, killing of homosexuals is all moral and can be justfied using the Bible. There are of course the new Edited versions that have those taken off for liberal reasons and so people don't just publicly denounce their faith in this liberal world.

Think about it, if it was immoral then why was it going on? Why didn't the pope just excommunicate Americans, the British, and the Portoguese?

And let's try to compare with ancient European slavery. Slaves in ancient times were simply prisoners of war and they were treated more as servants to keep the homes clean and sometimes to work the fields. Their lives weren't so much worse then the normal citizens. Now compare that to Christian slavery and you got yourself actual slaves like the ones in Egypt.

Gawain of Orkeny
05-10-2005, 18:36
Yeah and it would seem that greed is also a sin but in America and Europe greed has been rampant even by the church(by them raising taxes or whatever they're called). It has been justified because the Bible is enormously flawd, I don't have time to serach everything but some time ago someone did that for me and I couldn't beleave all the crap that would be allowed easily. Slavery, killing of homosexuals is all moral and can be justfied using the Bible. There are of course the new Edited versions that have those taken off for liberal reasons and so people don't just publicly denounce their faith in this liberal world.

Again your talking the old testament here. Its nothing to do with christianity. Tell me who were the leaders of the civil rights movement? Who were the leaders of the anti slave movement? Yes it was those evil christains.


Think about it, if it was immoral then why was it going on? Why didn't the pope just excommunicate Americans, the British, and the Portoguese?

He can only excommmunicate catholics. I believe the British were excommicated a long time ago ~D


And let's try to compare with ancient European slavery. Slaves in ancient times were simply prisoners of war and they were treated more as servants to keep the homes clean and sometimes to work the fields. Their lives weren't so much worse then the normal citizens.

First off thats if you were lucky enough to become a slave when captured. Also many were just worked to death. Only household slaves were treated well just as it was in the South. If you worked in the masters house you were fairly well off. In fact better off than many free whites.


Now compare that to Christian slavery and you got yourself actual slaves like the ones in Egypt.

There is no such thing as christain slavery. Are you sure not Jag? ~D

GoreBag
05-10-2005, 21:19
It has been justified because the Bible is enormously flawd, I don't have time to serach everything but some time ago someone did that for me and I couldn't beleave all the crap that would be allowed easily.

I found this list some time ago.

Questions for Christians (http://fcos.us/tough.html)

I hope it's of some use for your argument, BP.

Byzantine Prince
05-10-2005, 22:31
Thanks NeonGod, that helps a lot. I don't usually search the internet because I am usually skeptical but this is pretty solid.

BDC
05-10-2005, 22:40
Wasn't everyone a horrific racist back then (excluding some of the more forward-thinking people, the sort who would hardly ever get elected in)? I know George Washington kept slaves...

TheJian
05-11-2005, 03:27
Its hilarious people need years to see what other seen long ago away... I remember when a Black leader said this years ago most said go back to Africa this has been in Black History book 4 over 60 years shit Malcolm x said it many times even to the UN and otherswo have said it are Na'im Akbar, Maya Angelou, James Baldwin, Yosef Ben-Jochannan, FrancesCress-Welsing, Cheikh Anta Diop, W.E.B Du Bois, Frantz Fannon, John G. Jackson, Marcus Garvey Ivan Van Sertima and many more...


In the states that Lincoln had power in, because he had no power in the South (the secession)..He did not free the so called slaves and slavery was still going on in the North in 2 states……lol……. He has said numerous things about Black people when he was the running for or was the Prezzz but because we don’t have education but indoctrination we are not told this…..(like our so called God like Founding Fathers) Even in most higher Ed you would never find this out (most Black Studies cant or will not say something like this) …..

Just remember this is the person they teach kids to be like……..no wonder the US just got over lynching people less then 40yrs ago... And never fall for that bull about the War was about slavery lol…..it was about the Union if you know History you should know that some European Country...( It start with an F if you don’t know) was about to enter the war on the side of the south and the only way to stop this or so He hoped and it did was to free the Slaves so this country which had abolished slavery could not be seen as supporting slavery, this was a very good move on his part if you think about it…

All my life I was told this was such a great man he freed the slaves….he never want it to happen never…His has even said that if freed, Black people would cause ,,,,,,,,,well never mind if you ever seen Michael Moore Bowling for Columbine the funny part about fear… then you know how most people really feared freedom for the slaves back then not really because they did not know of feel it was wrong but what would happen for all that had been done to the slaves…...

Its funny the KKK has said if you want to keep things from Black people just put it in a book this is so true but of all people…With the internet people don’t read books they think all things can be found on the internet….Cheikh Anta Diop rewrote History over 50yrs ago with his doctoral dissertation submitted at the University of Paris, Sorbonne in 1951 After nearly 10yr had finally won his Docteur es Lettres (The African Origin of Civilization, Myth Or Reality is the book that came about)…but did the World History book change NO even when they have said we know you are right Mr Diop...we must still teach our kids the same old way..the real question is why must we still be indoctrination in 2005….lol

Ayachuco
05-11-2005, 15:15
Awwww....

You're ripping up one of my childhood heroes...

:bigcry:

But that is seriously long, Gawain.

I'm sorry but its true. Abraham Lincoln was a racist and the only reason he issued the Emancipation is because he need support in the South during the Civil War. Abraham can also be considered a tyrant and a liar, so much for Honest Abe. He was the one who started the conflict and was the aggressive faction during the war because of his goal of unifying the Union. Jefferson Davis however did not want to fight, he wanted to exist as a seperate nation peacefully, that is why they did not capture Washington D.C. after Manasas and Bull Run. A good book on this topic is "The Real Abe Lincoln" or something to that effect.

Meneldil
05-11-2005, 15:36
First off thats if you were lucky enough to become a slave when captured. Also many were just worked to death. Only household slaves were treated well just as it was in the South. If you worked in the masters house you were fairly well off. In fact better off than many free whites.




Well, probably, but still slaves had rights when serving a greek, a roman or a muslim, which I don't think was true in America (I may be wrong about this).

Kinda out of topic, but I'm a bit ashamed by all the fuss about slaving I've heard lately in France. A lot of people are blaming Brits and French, Americans, Portuguese (sp?) and generaly, Christianism. Some are claiming that the west became wealthier than the rest of the world thanks to slavery, or are comparing 17th century slavery to the Holocaust.
Quite odd when you know that slavery would never have worked that much without muslims and africans.