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View Full Version : Well its finally done - Holocaust Memorial



PanzerJaeger
05-11-2005, 06:41
http://www.thewaterglass.net/German%20Holocaust%20Memorial.jpg

Holocaust Memorial (http://reuters.myway.com/article/20050510/2005-05-10T125949Z_01_N10732773_RTRIDST_0_NEWS-GERMANY-HOLOCAUST-MEMORIAL-DC.html)

Im very disapointed that this was ever even considered.

A) It only honors the Jewish victims of the holocaust - typical.

B) Its ugly as hell. There were so many good designs out there for a memorial with dignity. This, in my opinion, is just a bunch of concrete blocks scattered around in no particular order.

I guess since im not a German citizen anymore i dont have a place to say anything, but it should have never been created in this manner. :no:

Magraev
05-11-2005, 07:15
I think the gesture is a good one, unlike Japan that just (with US help) pretend they never did anything wrong.

The memorial itself seems rather ugly I'm afraid, but who am I to judge. I predict a lot of spray-painted swasticas on those blocks.

Why does the memorial only relate to the jews? What about gypsies, homosexuals, handicapped, resistance fighters, communists (in no particular order)?

Ser Clegane
05-11-2005, 08:04
Some opinions from a "local" (i.e. German citizen):

- It was about time that we have a major memorial for the Holocaust in Berlin, and IMO the location (right next to the Reichstag and the Brandenburger Tor) is well chosen

- I am not quite happy with the design they went for - however, I think I will have to actually walk through it to have a final opinion

- It is an absolute shame and inexcusable that this memorial does not relate to all the people that had to die in Nazi concentration camps The whole discussion about this issue made me feel really embarrassed - how is it possible that the question about who we commemorate and who we do not even arises?


I predict a lot of spray-painted swasticas on those blocks.
Those swastikas wouldn't last long - the blocks have been specially coated, so any spray-paintings should be easily removable.
Of course this special coating had been supplied by the chemical company Degussa which led to another disgraceful discussion as the name "Degussa" is closely linked to Cyclon B which was used to gas jews in concentration camps.


The good thing about the memorial being finally finished is that all the ugly discussions and the quarreling about it will now (hopefully) come to an end

monkian
05-11-2005, 08:27
I thought the whole point of it being 'plain' was so it didn't just focus on the Jewish victims of the Holocaust.

By the way, does the phrase 'Holocaust' just include the systematic murder of the Jews or all of the Nazis' 'undesirables' ?

Fragony
05-11-2005, 09:58
I like it, it is hostile and calm at the same time.

Colovion
05-11-2005, 10:31
I thought the whole point of it being 'plain' was so it didn't just focus on the Jewish victims of the Holocaust.

By the way, does the phrase 'Holocaust' just include the systematic murder of the Jews or all of the Nazis' 'undesirables' ?

wiki

The Holocaust was Nazi Germany's systematic genocide (ethnic cleansing) of various ethnic, religious, national, and secular groups

Beirut
05-11-2005, 12:33
You should have been here in Canada reading the papers the last week or so. For every story about VE-day on page three there were multiple stories, with big colour pictures, usually front page, about the ending of the Holocaust.

It was like listening to Kent Brockman do the news.

:singer: Two old ladies whose second cousins were killed in the Holocaust put flowers outside the camp in Poland. World leaders attended and fifty-thousand news truck showed up to record the event. A national day or morning was declared for the ladies and a new planet was recently named in honour of the victims. On a related topic, WWII ended on this day, fifty milion killed, blah-blah-blah. Over to you Krusty!"

Now pardon me for being flippant with all that, or don't, but the way I see it the Holocaust happened during WWII. WWII did not happen during the Holocaust. But here in Canada the focus was very strong on the Holocaust being the center event of the war, to the point that it overshadows the war. They even made a point of showing soldiers putting flowers at the graves of Jewish victims. That's all fine and dandy, but what about the other 44,000,000 who died? They are being ignored.

Fragony
05-11-2005, 12:41
Now pardon me for being flippant with all that, or don't, but the way I see it the Holocaust happened during WWII. WWII did not happen during the Holocaust. But here in Canada the focus was very strong on the Holocaust being the center event of the war, to the point that it overshadows the war. They even made a point of showing soldiers putting flowers at the graves of Jewish victims. That's all fine and dandy, but what about the other 44,000,000 who died? They are being ignored.

I would rather say that a certain 6 million are exploited.

PanzerJaeger
05-11-2005, 13:45
What i want to know is how much this "archetect" got paid. It looks like he procrastinated until the day before it was due, then got drunk, then remembered at 4 am!

I can appreciate modern art well enough but i dont understand this at all. In reality its seems like a rather sad joke.

To the Jews: "Uh yea.. well.. umm.. we're really sorry so weve put up bunch of concrete slabs in your honor!"

To the other victims: "Yea well.. you dont exist, sorry."

What will the aliens think when they come here.. they will see Notre Dame and then see this.. Theyll think weve gone back into the dark ages.

But im not a German anymore or a Jew, so just my humble opinion.

The_Doctor
05-11-2005, 14:40
I agree with Panzer, it looks terrible. Why didn't they just make a bronze statue?

Also it was 10 million people that died in the holocust. But people only remember the 6 million jews.

Beirut
05-11-2005, 15:46
Ya, well, business is business.

Productivity
05-11-2005, 16:16
I can appreciate modern art well enough but i dont understand this at all. In reality its seems like a rather sad joke.

An ugly memorial to remember a period of time that was extremely ugly. That was what I thought immediately and I can see the logic there.

Idomeneas
05-11-2005, 18:36
As an artist i say that my personal subjective opinion is that the memorial is ugly as hell. But before i judge i would like some information about who financed it. If it really ''honours'' only jewish people. And if yes why other victims are ommited.

I would also like to know (as devils most faithfull advocate) if it will ever be a memorial for palaistenians who had their houses brought down and kids shot cause they were throwing stones at tanks and armed to the teeth soldiers.

The_Doctor
05-11-2005, 19:40
I would also like to know (as devils most faithfull advocate) if it will ever be a memorial for palaistenians who had their houses brought down and kids shot cause they were throwing stones at tanks and armed to the teeth soldiers.

Who would build it?

If someone tried, they would be accused of supporting terrorism and being anti-semitic.

Meneldil
05-11-2005, 20:36
Heh, why do people always bring in a fact (Palestinian vs Jews) that is totally out of topic ?

Well, yes, it's ugly, and yes, it's sad because it's only for jews people, but as many other memorials of that kind, I'm fairly sure it has been funded by jewish people (ie. they don't really care about the others).

I don't see the gipsy diaspora or the slav diaspora giving money to build such an awful memorial.

From the guy who designed it, "it was built that way so people would feel oppressed".

PanzerJaeger
05-11-2005, 23:27
I would also like to know (as devils most faithfull advocate) if it will ever be a memorial for palaistenians who had their houses brought down and kids shot cause they were throwing stones at tanks and armed to the teeth soldiers.

Why would the Palastinians want such an ugly memorial?

JAG
05-12-2005, 03:56
I actually quite like it. I think it is moving, not over the top and also looks very calming. As others have stated it is a shame it only covers the Jewish dead, but still, they deserve to be remembered more than most, I feel, for not only what they went through but what they symbolised and what the act of trying to wipe them out did. If we remember how horrible it was when it was tried, we not only - hopefully - won't try it again in terms of Jews, but all races as well.

Papewaio
05-12-2005, 04:02
I actually quite like it. I think it is moving, not over the top and also looks very calming. As others have stated it is a shame it only covers the Jewish dead, but still, they deserve to be remembered more than most, I feel, for not only what they went through but what they symbolised and what the act of trying to wipe them out did. If we remember how horrible it was when it was tried, we not only - hopefully - won't try it again in terms of Jews, but all races as well.

You do of course realise that other ethnic groups where attempted to wiped out some in larger numbers (if you consider Slavs and Russians as an ethnic group) and some in larger proportions (homosexuals, gypsies).

So by only focusing on the Jews it is a racist monument. It implies that only Jews are worthy of remembering. Not a good call considering it was racism/hatred of differences that started the whole thing.

JAG
05-12-2005, 04:07
I understand that Pape, but I do not think that was intended when they made it. They did not want to be disrespectful, they merely wanted to try and pay their dues to their past. It is very twisted if you think that this monument is helping to create racism.

Papewaio
05-12-2005, 04:10
IMDHO

By selectively only seeing one set of suffering and ignoring those in the same place, time and circumstance because they belong to a different group is prejudice.

To then act on that prejudice it is then racism.

Efrem
05-12-2005, 05:28
Why must everytime a thing like this happens the left of the forum acuse jews of being racist???

There are memorials out there that only cover american war dead from WW2, Is that memorial racist????


But yes, I wish people would shut up about the holocaust.
Maybe a memorial day every 5 years if it must, or as I think best, combine it in with passover, where the egytian attempted genocide is featured.

Efrem
05-12-2005, 05:40
oh, to be on topic, I think the memorial is horrific and should be taken down or rather never built.

PanzerJaeger
05-12-2005, 07:22
A bunch of concrete slabs are not a fitting memorial in the twentieth century.

Although in 1000 years the historians will be stumped.

"Why would such an advanced culture waste so much space with slabs of rock?" ~:confused:

Efrem
05-12-2005, 07:38
Maybe thats what they were thinking when stonghenge was built.

The_Doctor
05-12-2005, 17:28
If we keep building memorials for everyone who has died (graveyards, war memorials, etc)the world will become a monument to death and become uninhabitable.

The Wizard
05-12-2005, 17:51
Holocaust Memorial (http://reuters.myway.com/article/20050510/2005-05-10T125949Z_01_N10732773_RTRIDST_0_NEWS-GERMANY-HOLOCAUST-MEMORIAL-DC.html)

Im very disapointed that this was ever even considered.

A) It only honors the Jewish victims of the holocaust - typical.

B) Its ugly as hell. There were so many good designs out there for a memorial with dignity. This, in my opinion, is just a bunch of concrete blocks scattered around in no particular order.

I guess since im not a German citizen anymore i dont have a place to say anything, but it should have never been created in this manner. :no:

Do you live in Berlin?

If you do, you must know there are, by now, probably more monuments/km² in Berlin's city core than there are office buildings, because there is a monument for every victim group there is in WWII. The next one coming up is for the murdered Roma and brethren.

So don't talk as if there aren't any monuments for other victim groups as well. This is the monument for the murdered jewish people, and there are many more for others.

And personally, I find it has some air of simplicity that invites to quiet contemplation on the subject of the Holocaust -- especially concerning the monument contains no writings etc.



~Wiz

Adrian II
05-12-2005, 18:21
They even made a point of showing soldiers putting flowers at the graves of Jewish victims. That's all fine and dandy, but what about the other 44,000,000 who died? They are being ignored.Ignored? What are you talking about? The Dutch have just had a whole week in which they commemorated the soldiers who died for our freedom. My hometown celebrated 'their Canadians' -- the actual guys who liberated us, most of them very old by now. And if you ask them if there is one thing about that war that they regret, they say it's that they didn't screw Jerry faster so they could have closed some of those camps earlier and saved some more lives. Some of their comrades drank themselves to death within months after the war for merely having seen the inside of the camps.

Biy, isn't it nice how everyone envies the Jews their dead these days? The Gypsies, the gays, the Palestinians, even the soldiers who fought for Hitler, everyone wants a piece of the cake.

"Hey, move over Jew, you think you're special?" :furious3:

The real issue here is - and the Bundestag was on the mark when it recognised this in its decision to establish the monument - the Nazi attempt to wipe an entire people and religion off the face of the earth for no other reason than the fact that they existed. That, my friends, is the reason why this memorial was built. Dead victims are dead victims - the fact that they had different relegions or nationalities doesn't make them any less dead.

But there are crimes and then there are crimes, and the Holocaust, carried out with full industrial and administrative rigour, took the biscuit. The victims don't stand out, the crime does.

The Germans should have followed through on the original plan to make this a monument against the crime, a Mahnmal to point out the perpetrators. They didn't have the balls for that. Whom to include, and whom to leave out -- now that would have been a lively discussion. This monument means nothing to me, I will never visit it.
:bow:

Ser Clegane
05-12-2005, 18:43
Do you live in Berlin?

If you do, you must know there are, by now, probably more monuments/km² in Berlin's city core than there are office buildings, because there is a monument for every victim group there is in WWII. The next one coming up is for the murdered Roma and brethren.


But that's exactly the issue - after the plans for this memorial (that was only dedicated to one group) passed, of course other groups complained that there seemed to be victims worth commemorating and some victims that were less "interesting".
The consequence was that individual memorials for the individual victim groups were planned and built.

What a great idea. In commemorating the victims we follow the Nazis' idea of categorizing them (perhaps we should even have marked the memorials with the "appropriate" colors ) instead of building one memorial for all victims.

Adrian II
05-12-2005, 18:46
The consequence was that individual memorials for the individual victim groups were planned and built.Oh jeez... How many are there, that you know of?

Byzantine Prince
05-12-2005, 18:53
Who would build it?

If someone tried, they would be accused of supporting terrorism and being anti-semitic.
Palestinians ARE semitic.

Anyways I don't think it's bad that made a memorial however ugly, but why is it limited to jews. This really pisses me off. There was so many people in death camps from every possible ethnic origin. I beleave Auschwitz had German(not gay, not crippled, probably political prisoners), Albanians, Greeks, Russians, Pols, Checks, Romanians, Americans, Canadians(yes you heard it!). All of who were persecuted for their political religious beliefs or simply because they were slav or jewish. So why don't they expand it to include all these people?

The Wizard
05-12-2005, 19:00
But that's exactly the issue - after the plans for this memorial (that was only dedicated to one group) passed, of course other groups complained that there seemed to be victims worth commemorating and some victims that were less "interesting".
The consequence was that individual memorials for the individual victim groups were planned and built.

What a great idea. In commemorating the victims we follow the Nazis' idea of categorizing them (perhaps we should even have marked the memorials with the "appropriate" colors ) instead of building one memorial for all victims.

What is the big problem? Scared that in your daily walk through the park you'll be reminded constantly of the war and the terrible cost of it? That's exactly the point -- we must never forget the evil incarnate that was the nazi regime, especially in the war years.

Other than that I cannot think of nor believe in any other cause for your concern of a high monumental density. As I recall it from October 2004, just about every corner of Rome's city core is a monument as well.



~Wiz

King Ragnar
05-12-2005, 20:30
Well, yes, it's ugly, and yes, it's sad because it's only for jews people, but as many other memorials of that kind, I'm fairly sure it has been funded by jewish people (ie. they don't really care about the others).

I don't see the gipsy diaspora or the slav diaspora giving money to build such an awful memorial.
".

The reason Jewish people can fund such things is because they milk the whole Holocaust thing, they just think it was them who were the only ones that were prosecuted. The other groups that were prosecuted don't milk it so they can't afford such ugly things.

Adrian II
05-12-2005, 20:45
The reason Jewish people can fund such things is because they milk the whole Holocaust thing, they just think it was them who were the only ones that were prosecuted. The other groups that were prosecuted don't milk it so they can't afford such ugly things.Wow, my envy-o-meter is working overtime. And so is my BS-detector. This memorial was established and paid for entirely by the German Bundestag, not by Jews. That's probably why it's so ugly.

King Ragnar
05-12-2005, 20:47
Wow, my envy-o-meter is working overtime. And so is my BS-detector. This memorial was established and paid for entirely by the German Bundestag, not by Jews. That's probably why it's so ugly.

BS detctor? Sorry i didn't know the German Bundestag paid for it.

Adrian II
05-12-2005, 20:51
BS detector?Bovine droppings.

Ser Clegane
05-12-2005, 21:35
Oh jeez... How many are there, that you know of?





What is the big problem? Scared that in your daily walk through the park you'll be reminded constantly of the war and the terrible cost of it? That's exactly the point -- we must never forget the evil incarnate that was the nazi regime, especially in the war years.

Other than that I cannot think of nor believe in any other cause for your concern of a high monumental density. As I recall it from October 2004, just about every corner of Rome's city core is a monument as well.


Great guys - put some words in my mouth ~;)

Where did I complain about the "monument density" or the "constant reminder" (quite a cheap shot to insinuate that, I might say BTW) ?

What I found pitiful and actually even disgusting is not the fact that there are several memorials but the the way the whole discussion evolved around this issue.
Instead of focusing on the meaning of the memorial we had lobbying groups quarreling about which groups should be represented and about the diffrenet treatment of different "groups of victims".
Quite a disgrace IMHO.

In the past years people got the impression that the whole thing was more about the egos of individual persons representing interest groups than about the commemoration of the victims and the horror that was caused by the Nazis.

The latest discussion is just the icing on the cake (http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,355715,00.html)

Don Corleone
05-12-2005, 21:53
Lighten up everyone. I think Ser Clegnane makes a great point. Why would you segregate the victims? Does the fact that somebody wore a yellow star on the way into the shower make their death somehow more important to remember than the fact that they were just a gypsy who got picked up and thrown in there? I don't really know what the numbers of victims were, per ethnic group, but I don't think the Jews were any kind of a super majority there. I could be wrong. What happened to the Jews, and to all the others who ran afoul of the SS was a terrible tragedy, but it serves no purpose to claim one group was victimized then another. They all were...

I'm very proud that the German people have done this, and in truth, we actually do have a memorial to the Sioux men, women and children we massacred out at Wounded Knee. The problem is, the vast majority of Americans don't wander through Wounded Knee, Montana in their life, let alone frequently. I think it was very, very gutsy of the Germans to put it in Berlin. I don't think we have anything like that in Washington D.C., and we probably should. To imply that Germans are shirking their duty because they believe it should be one memorial is pretty unfair.

PanzerJaeger
05-12-2005, 22:19
By the way, how many memorials do the Russians have to all the millions they killed?

Don Corleone
05-12-2005, 22:43
Well, glass houses and all that there PJ. We don't exactly have memorials in downtown New York or in Washington DC to all the Africans who died on their way over here. Or to all the Native Americans who died while we were 'settling' the place. We're better than most at acknowledging past wrong doings, but certainly could do more.

Goofball
05-12-2005, 22:44
The reason Jewish people can fund such things is because they milk the whole Holocaust thing, they just think it was them who were the only ones that were prosecuted. The other groups that were prosecuted don't milk it so they can't afford such ugly things.

[SARCASM=ON]Yes, the Jews are just a bunch of whiners. They should just take their lumps and shut up. 6,000,000 (give or take) dead? Drop in the bucket. What are they bitching about?[/SARCASM=OFF]

And by the way, it's "persecuted," not "prosecuted," genius. The Jews weren't caught shoplifting and given a fine. They were caught simply being Jews, then rounded up, gassed, and incinerated. Big difference.

The Wizard
05-12-2005, 22:47
Personally it's not about importance of any kind of victim at all. If we're gonna talk like that, we might as well stop.

What I mean to lament is the fact that it seems to me in this discussion the jews are made the scapegoat by stating it as if this monument depicts the jews as 'more important' than the Roma and other 'gypsies', handicapped people, etc. That isn't the point of the monument at all! It should remind us of what a terrible cost people's ignorance and greed can bring.

Which lets one question remain -- what actually points the monument out as being dedicated to the jewish Holocaust alone? There's nothing on the slabs. In fact, there's nothing about the whole monument which points to it being dedicated to the jews solely at first sight. Only thing I can think of is that there are six million slabs -- but who would see that in one go?

An example of media hype turning a monument into an eyesore?

BTW, Don Corleone, I've lived amongst Americans (heck, I went to an IS and American School from my 6th to my 12th), and I must say you guys are pretty ashamed of your behavior in the past. Too politically correct, if you ask me. We, the Dutch kids at the International School of Aruba where I was at, couldn't even celebrate the annual St. Nicolas feast with the Zwarte Pieten ('Black Petes'; the negro helpers of St. Nicolas)! We had to have them white, because the Texan headmaster thought it was racism. Suffice to say, Dutch parents/kids at the school weren't happy with it!



~Wiz

Adrian II
05-12-2005, 22:48
Great guys - put some words in my mouth ~;)I didn't put words in your mouth, I asked how many separate monuments there were that you knew of. That's all. I don't think there are many.

@Don Corleone. Like I said, it's not the nature or the number of the victims that sets the Holocaust apart, it's the nature of the crime. It may seem like a nice idea to include all the Nazi victims, but by doing so we lose sight of the real issue. If there ever was a crime that could qualify as metaphysical, surely this one is it: a plan to administratively erase an entire people, its religion, its memory.

Don Corleone
05-12-2005, 22:50
Okay, well, that's a horse of a different color, Wizard. There's individual memorials in Berlin to each of the groups that went through the Holocaust except for the Jews? Well, then I suppose it's time the Jews did have a memorial over there.

Don Corleone
05-12-2005, 22:55
I didn't put words in your mouth, I asked how many separate monuments there were that you knew of. That's all. I don't think there are many.

@Don Corleone. Like I said, it's not the nature or the number of the victims that sets the Holocaust apart, it's the nature of the crime. It may seem like a nice idea to include all the Nazi victims, but by doing so we lose sight of the real issue. If there ever was a crime that could qualify as metaphysical, surely this one is it: a plan to administratively erase an entire people, its religion, its memory.

Adrian,
I hate to break it to you dude, but it's happened to all sorts of different cultural/racial/religious groups, throughout history. This wasn't even the first time it happened to the Jews. What do you think the diaspora was all about?

I am not arguing that what happened to the Jews wasn't ghastly. It was a terrible, horrible crime against humanity, and if anything, I get accused of being too pro-Jew, too pro-Israel around here. But in defining the Holocaust as a crime against Jews (and as a footnote, some other unnamed folks died too), you're losing sight of what happened. The Holocaust wasn't about eradicating Jews. It started that way, but it evolved into the systematic eradication of every non-perfect Aryan. I don't care what PJ & Gawain say, if Hitler had 10 years of success under his belt, either he or his successors would be talking about the dirty Celts & the need to exterminate anyone who had their blood in them, and then the dirty Gauls, and any other ethnic group you can think of. Yes, the Jews suffered horribly, and they have not only the right, but the obligation to their kindred to remind the world what happened. But so do all the others who died.

You're right, the Nazis and the Holocaust were a horror of singular intensity in human history, but for reasons even more profound than you're expounding.

Idomeneas
05-13-2005, 01:01
IMO always, German goverment should create a memorial for all victims of nazism. No matter of their origin and category (political-social). Now if this monument is that exactly i say well done. If it stands there to remind only a part of the people who suffered i find it alittle ''too much''. Since the matter is foggy until somebody says for sure wich case it is i only stand to the fact that aesthetically it is repulsive. I understand it represents something dreadfull but in that logic maybe we sould digup some corpses and display them they would cause more impact (sarcasm offcourse).

Now let me say something else i observed here. It seems that there is an issue with the way Jews exchanged and exploited the holocaust suffering. Majority here seems to agree that what happened was true, was horrible and should never be permited to happen again, but people are alittle fed up with this ''promotion''.
Dont get me wrong i have nothing against nobody but im abit annoyed byall this whinning. And im not annoyed cause i wanna conseal anything that happened. Im annoyed cause from ALL people that through history were persecuted and literally anihhilated, every once and while we must comfort Only the jewish people. We must say how sorry we are and bla bla bla and they do anything to remind us how difficult it was for them when at the same time they have their boot on the neck of another people. I would expect more superiority in human feelings from somebody who had so many troubles.

I admire that they stick together i admire that they managed to promote so good their people, but what is good or important to them isnt necesarely good for everybody. I do not care what was the ethnicity of victims. What freaks me out is that whole factories were built to exterminate humans.

Jews have known many percecussions through time im perfectly aware of that. Its a mystery to me why people hated them so much (before 20 century). Was it for stupid religious reasons? maybe cause they were traditionally the loaners and bankers? Maybe cause they stick together and people-states didnt like society within society? Im certainly no expert. But what im aware of is that there are people that were in worst place and now they dont fill the world with promotional material of their pain. It gets to me and sorry if it sounds unappropriate that they exploit their pain as political mean. They have passed so well the victim image that even if they do crimes as those in Palestine they still remain the ''poor guys''.
Holocaust happened. Nobody denies it. But what was done was done. We should keep that horrible deeds as example of how low human can fall and stop there.

Just my thoughts, i dont intend to offend anybody.

Adrian II
05-13-2005, 08:25
We must say how sorry we are and bla bla bla and they do anything to remind us how difficult it was for them when at the same time they have their boot on the neck of another people.I don't know about you, but I don't have to say sorry for the Holocaust and nobody is asking me to. And secondly, the worst political abuse of the Holocaust is by people who have an axe to grind with Israel.

I see where this victim cult is going. Like I said, everybody wants to be (or be seen) on the side of the world's victims these days. My prediction is that one day we'll have a monument to all the victims of everything, so we can all say that we're victims, or the loved ones of a victim, or the descendants of victims, or the descendants of the loved ones of the neighbours of a victim. The victims of air pollution and traffic accidents, the kids who were shot by other pupils in schools, the firemen who were the victims of flames and caving roofs - anyone and everyone will be commemorated. Nobody will have to feel guilty about anything anymore: hey, we were all oppressed! It will be a great cleansing of history, symbolised by the monument called "Memorial to all the Victims of Sumpin".

Ser Clegane
05-13-2005, 08:41
I didn't put words in your mouth, I asked how many separate monuments there were that you knew of. That's all. I don't think there are many.

Indeed - you did not directly put words into my mouth - however, by the condescending way of asking your question ("Oh jeez ... ") you were as much as The Wizard implying that I felt offended by the number of memorials in Berlin.
Quite frankly, I do not care if there are 2, 5 or 20 memorials and I do not care if we spend a couple of millions more or less for building them (there are worse ways for our government to spend money, and I think they have the ambition to try them all). What I do care about - and I think I made that quite clear in my posts - is that a lot of people obviously believe that there is a need for a discussion which victims should be commemorated and which not.

A single memorial for the Holocaust does not necessarily relativize the crimes that have been committed against the Jews. A single memorial does not automatically mean that the individual stories of the groups of victims are not told.

To answer your question, Adrian, here is a short article that gives some examples of what is planned and being built:
Memorials in Berlin (German article) (http://www.saar-echo.de/news.php?news_ID=22009)
I think we should actually turn this into a tourist attraction ("Visit all 7 Holocaust memorials in Berlin and don't forget to buy our collection of 7 pins in 7 different colors as a lasting memento")

Efrem
05-13-2005, 11:17
Palestinians ARE semitic.

Anyways I don't think it's bad that made a memorial however ugly, but why is it limited to jews. This really pisses me off. There was so many people in death camps from every possible ethnic origin. I beleave Auschwitz had German(not gay, not crippled, probably political prisoners), Albanians, Greeks, Russians, Pols, Checks, Romanians, Americans, Canadians(yes you heard it!). All of who were persecuted for their political religious beliefs or simply because they were slav or jewish. So why don't they expand it to include all these people?



Firstly Anti semitic doesn't mean racism against semtics, it means racism against jews. Look it up in the dictionary if you don't believe me. Words don't always mean what they're roots lead us to think.


Ok, as I said before, if there is a memorial to just american soldiers then why shouldn't there be a memorial just for jews????????

You just aren't making sense, it isn't like this isn't the only memorial thats exclusivly for a group of people.

Fragony
05-13-2005, 11:21
Firstly Anti semitic doesn't mean racism against semtics, it means racism against jews. Look it up in the dictionary if you don't believe me. Words don't always mean what they're roots lead us to think.


Ok, as I said before, if there is a memorial to just american soldiers then why shouldn't there be a memorial just for jews????????

You just aren't making sense, it isn't like this isn't the only memorial thats exclusivly for a group of people.

You have a point, but there are already so many monuments for the jews. A monument for all is more apropiate.

Efrem
05-13-2005, 11:31
agreed

But this has been hijacked to attack jews by those who try to keep thier racism inside to be politically correct.

Fragony
05-13-2005, 11:37
agreed

But this has been hijacked to attack jews by those who try to keep thier racism inside to be politically correct.

I haven't read anything that would qualify as that....

Beirut
05-13-2005, 11:46
Ignored? What are you talking about? The Dutch have just had a whole week in which they commemorated the soldiers who died for our freedom. My hometown celebrated 'their Canadians' -- the actual guys who liberated us, most of them very old by now.

I certainly wasn't commenting on what happened in your neighbourhood. I thought what you guys did to honour the veterans showed great respect. And it was appreciated by all.

I was talking about what the newspapers over here were saying. The stories were simply about Jewish suffering during WWII, or about Canadian soldiers expressing grief over Jewish suffering during WWII. My problem was that the entire scope of the war, as well as the other 44,000,000 people killed, were barely mentioned.


Biy, isn't it nice how everyone envies the Jews their dead these days? The Gypsies, the gays, the Palestinians, even the soldiers who fought for Hitler, everyone wants a piece of the cake.

It's not that people envy them I'm sure, it's that people do have questions as to why the Jewish people's suffering during WWII has been placed so high on the alter of history as the overshadow all others. Some people just don't think this is fair, reasonable, or respectful of the others who died.

The way the newspapers over here report WWII sometimes, you'd think the whole war was fought to save the Jews and allow the creation of Israel. Sure, maybe it's a nice warm fuzzy thought, but it's not true.

Fragony
05-13-2005, 11:51
I think we should see the holocaust as a seperate event that took place during the war.

Efrem
05-13-2005, 11:52
Ok Ok, other than the endless ragging on jews for exploiting the holocaust, which is really really damn offensive, I over reacted. My apologies.

Adrian II
05-13-2005, 12:42
Ok Ok, other than the endless ragging on jews for exploiting the holocaust, which is really really damn offensive, I over reacted. My apologies.Well, we seem to agree on one point, you and I. But I'd like to know your reasons for thinking there should be a separate memorial for the Holocaust. I've written down mine somewhere above. I think it's the nature of the crime and not the nature of the victims that justifies the 'exception'. What's your take?

Adrian II
05-13-2005, 12:59
What do you think the diaspora was all about?Tefutzah (Hebr.) or διασπορα (Gr.) means 'scattering' and refers to the dispersion of Jews after the destruction of the First and Second Temples. They were chased from their Judean homeland and scattered all over the Middle East. It was not a concerted effort to round them up and kill them all.
The Holocaust wasn't about eradicating Jews. It started that way, but it evolved into the systematic eradication of every non-perfect Aryan.No way, Don Corleone. It was all about eradicating Jews. If given the chance to conquer more and more territory, the Nazi's would have pursued Jews all across the globe and killed them where they found them. They didn't have such plans for other peoples, and their extermination certainly wasn't on the books. My point stands, I think. The Holocaust was not an orgy of hatred like the Armenian genocide, or a calculated adapt-or-starve policy like the treatment of the Indians in the United States, or an act of revenge like the many deportations ordered by Stalin. It was an attempt to eradicate a people that was homeless to begin with, that was blamed for all the ills in every society where they lived and portrayed as the human embodiment of evil. That's what sets it apart. It was a deliberate attempt at a metaphysical cleansing of the earth.

Efrem
05-14-2005, 06:18
Well, we seem to agree on one point, you and I. But I'd like to know your reasons for thinking there should be a separate memorial for the Holocaust. I've written down mine somewhere above. I think it's the nature of the crime and not the nature of the victims that justifies the 'exception'. What's your take?


Well I don't nessicaryilly think there should be one, I just don't see the problem with one being made. I do wish it was more tastful though and did cover everyone rather than just jews. But honeslty It doesn't matter to me one way or the other.

Byzantine Prince
05-14-2005, 06:27
Why do we have to be reminded of how the jews have suffered every freaken day. Is it meant to be like a deterent to hate? If so then the people thinking that way do not understand what hate even is.

Efrem
05-14-2005, 07:04
Must be worse in canada than it is in aus....

Adrian II
05-14-2005, 11:04
It doesn't matter to me one way or the other.Just for a moment, I thought it did. My bad.

Efrem
05-14-2005, 11:57
Its the reaction I care about rather than the actual memorial.

Adrian II
05-14-2005, 12:01
Its the reaction I care about rather than the actual memorial.Alright. But when you say it should cover 'everyone', I suppose you don't mean literally everyone. Whom exactly should it cover?

Efrem
05-14-2005, 13:30
no one, it shouldn't have been made. There are better ways to remember things than ugly memorials.

Idomeneas
05-14-2005, 18:30
I don't know about you, but I don't have to say sorry for the Holocaust and nobody is asking me to. And secondly, the worst political abuse of the Holocaust is by people who have an axe to grind with Israel.

I see where this victim cult is going. Like I said, everybody wants to be (or be seen) on the side of the world's victims these days. My prediction is that one day we'll have a monument to all the victims of everything, so we can all say that we're victims, or the loved ones of a victim, or the descendants of victims, or the descendants of the loved ones of the neighbours of a victim. The victims of air pollution and traffic accidents, the kids who were shot by other pupils in schools, the firemen who were the victims of flames and caving roofs - anyone and everyone will be commemorated. Nobody will have to feel guilty about anything anymore: hey, we were all oppressed! It will be a great cleansing of history, symbolised by the monument called "Memorial to all the Victims of Sumpin".

sorry but im not sure i get your point

Efrem
05-15-2005, 04:19
sorry but im not sure i get your point

Its sarcasm. Hes saying that people are using dramatisiations to whitewash history and absolve any guilt. Like those Ex USSR countries that are playing up red army abuses to make up for supporting the 3rd riech.

....I think