View Full Version : Pornography: Evil or alright?
Don Corleone
05-12-2005, 03:24
I can't imagine anyone making an argument for it's inherent goodness, but hey. I'd like to try something different. I'm going to sit down and buy BP and Jag a beer here, and let's all check our political cloaks at the door. I'll then be carted off to the local pokey for contributing to the delinquincy of a minor. But seriously...
I'm curious what everyone, of every stripe and background thinks about this issue.
On the one hand, you have the freedom argument... consenting adults are free to act in & view materials as they see fit. It's a victimless crime, if it's a crime at all, and hey, it just might help save some marriages.
On the other, you can argue that pornography victimizes women. As much as we like it, every time we watch it, we're supporting the enslavement of some young woman out in California (or wherever the film Private movies over in Europe). Her chains are most likely a drug addiction, but they could be others. Point is, as long as we the consumers are out here (and I'm not necessarily throwing myself into that group, wifey might peek in here at any moment) pimps, erh, I mean agents will be out there preying on young women without a lot of choices in their life.
You could also make the good old fashioned moral/religious argument. I'm open to all viewpoints. But, I want to set a couple of simple groundrules:
1) No dragging other threads into here. If it wasn't mentioned explicitly in this thread, it's an invalid comment.
2) No personal attacks. If Devastatin Dave (sorry dude, I figure you could handle being an example) comes clean and admits he has his wife make 5 movies a day to help pay bills, you can voice an opposition, but no insults.
3) No political baggage. I know I'm as bad an offender as anyone, but please, no 'typical liberal feel-good...' or 'typical right-wing religious nutcase'.
4) Be honest. If you don't want to share your personal experiences, fine, don't but please, dont' misrepresent yourself.
Okay, boys (and hopefully ladies Froggy & Proletariat) have at it.
Byzantine Prince
05-12-2005, 03:29
I have never paid for porn in my life. I also try to avoid real porn, and watch mostly hentai. It's much cleaner on my conscience. It's not evil but it can be. For example bestiality, shiteating, bdsm are pretty bad. I try to avoid those as well. ~D
I can't imagine anyone making an argument for it's inherent goodness,
I can. And I will. Porno is good. It's fun, it's healthy, it sparks the imagination, it quickens the pulse and is an example of both our creativity and our needs.
I'm not talking about underage pornography, or forced sex or anything like that. Just good old fashioned delicious sex conducted by consenting adults brought forth into movie form for other consenting adults.
Porno? Damn straight! ~:cheers:
I think porno is great, but I'm really tired of the niche fetish porno popping up everywhere. It blows my mind that some people has such absurd turn-ons, but then, I guess I'm absurd to them too.
I don't think I've ever paid for porno either. Symptom of my generation, I guess.
I have two points on this -
Firstly Don, my initial thoughts and probably my final position is that I have no problems with it. Why? Because it is a business like most others, it is no more enslaving or 'wrong' than office work, in my opinion. People are free to take part in it, watch it or ignore it, it is not rammed down peoples necks like other business are - like sport for instance.
However secondly when I reflect a bit longer I do agree that it does have negative aspects and although I think it perfectly fine and most definitely not to be made illegal - what would that solve anyway? You would still have people making porn and selling it illegally - it should be regulated effectively so that the *ahem * niche markets of women getting abused in porn does not get into the hands of adolescents. Very hard to do but that type of porn really doesn't set a good precedent, at least other forms of porn doesn't show things we are not going to participate in - yeh alright not necessarily as explicitly as some porn films - in our lifetimes anyway. Also like prostitution it should be open and regulated properly so that the women in the business are not taken advantage of and know exactly what they are doing, are not getting ripped off and know they are doing it only because they want to and not because they feel they have to.
Not evil and it does serve its purposes. ~;)
Don Corleone
05-12-2005, 03:37
Well, that's an interesting point guys.
Hypothetically speaking, let's say I could offer direct evidence that almost all women do porn to support a drug habit or are single mothers (I can't and God I hope that isn't the case, btw)....
Would finding it for free absolve you of any guilt of her being stuck in that job? Technically speaking, you're not the one paying for it, so you're not paying her boss.
And does watching cartoons of, let's face it BP, no offense... women being victimized by tentacles and stuff mean that you're blameless? I mean, how can you victimize a cartoon?
Don Corleone
05-12-2005, 03:40
God, I've been possessed by Jerry Springer...
Okay, let's look at that viewpoint Neon & Jag...
The whole idea of 'scale' of the material being shown... The woman is an actress, so whether she's receiving an enema or just making out and receiving heavy petting, she's almost assuredly faking any emotion for the camera. So, it's not about what she's actually into. It's about your cravings. Are some niches (straight sex, lesbians, soft core porn) okay and others (S&M type stuff) worse? Why?
Productivity
05-12-2005, 03:41
Well lets add some perspective as to the people who are involved in the industry, this below is something written by Asia Carrera (porn artist), about why she does what she does. I'm not saying that this a true indication of the industry, I simply don't know, but it may provide a bit of insight. I won't link to it because it may break the rules, but google should find it no problems.
WHY I DO PORN EVEN THOUGH I'M VERY BRIGHT AND COULD HAVE DONE ANYTHING I WANTED
by Asia Carrera
I got awfully tired of telling this over and over, so I'm telling it for the last time - here it is:)
OK, we all know I was an academically gifted little girl. What I don't publicize, is that I was not an especially motivated one. I was an overachiever only through a)genetic luck, and b)incredible pressure from my parents. My parents wanted me to go to Harvard and be a doctor or a lawyer, and I wanted to play piano and hang out with friends.
Needless to say, my parents and I butted heads. My father was born in Japan, and my mother was born in Germany. They were from the "old school", strong on discipline, and overachievers themselves, so they were in no way being hypocritical with their demands on me. (My dad went to Caltech on full academic scholarship for math and physics. He's the biggest nerd I know)
I was grounded for every "B" I got, and beaten for getting anything lower than that. I was not allowed to socialize at all, or go to parties, because they said there'd be time for that after I got into a good college. Well, I did what any red-blooded American kid would do, I'd sneak out. And get caught. And get beaten. And get grounded again. Without launching into too much detail, let's just say I was unhappy. (I tried to kill myself a lot) (Asian kids everywhere have e-mailed me to verify that this is standard practice in Asian households - what a relief to find out I'm normal, huh!)
Shortly before my seventeenth birthday, I ran away from home. I stayed where I could, with a rock'n'roll band, with friends, with strangers, in hotels, at one point in a tent. I worked when I could, but I couldn't do much at seventeen, so I had no money. I had friends drive me to school every day, and I begged people to bring me Doritos so I'd have something to eat. Everything I owned fit in two garbage bags. Sometimes I fucked people I didn't want to, so I could have a place to sleep, or a good meal. I gritted my teeth a lot, and did what I had to, rather than crawl back home and grovel for my folks' forgiveness.
Eventually the State found out I was living on my own, and I got put in a foster home. My foster parents were as strict as my own parents, and I still was not allowed to date or socialize. This was twice as difficult for me to handle, after having had a taste of freedom, but I stayed until I finished high school. I ran away from my foster home on my eighteenth birthday, knowing I only had to fend for myself until the fall, when I was going to Rutgers on my full academic scholarship. I hitchhiked off with my two garbage bags of stuff, and did what I could to not starve until school started.
So I confess, I went to college not for an education, but for the promise of a hot meal and a free bed while I plotted ways to become wealthy, so I wouldn't have to go begging or fucking any more strangers for lousy scraps of charity. Four years of college is a goal I'd like to finish attaining one day, but for a runaway who lost 15 pounds without enough food to eat, getting money in the bank immediately was my priority. I got a job as a bartender, and wished I had the guts to become a stripper 'cause I heard they made lots of money. One day the owner of the bar asked me if I would serve drinks topless at a private party for $100. Wow, a hundred bucks was a lot of dough for me, so I said sure. I drank a lot of vodka to screw up my courage. Next thing you knew, I was on the bar with some strippers he'd hired, and I was collecting tips like crazy. I came home with $300 bucks, and was amazed. I'd never made that much money in my life!
The next day I took a bottle of vodka and got myself hired at all the local go-go bars. I then proceeded to work seven nights a week, and I saved a minimum of $1000 every week, and sent it off to various mutual funds. (ever hear of someone who still has the first dollar they ever made? That would be me!) I obviously stopped attending classes, only going in to take finals. As one of the highest paid dancers in NJ, I searched for a way to get paid even more money dancing. I discovered that girls who made movies or magazines got paid more than regular 'house girls' like me.
I went to the local 7-11, bought all the men's magazines, and sent pictures of myself to the little addresses inside the first couple pages. Club magazine responded, and sent me to a photographer in NY, who proceeded to shoot me for most of the major men's mags. I asked him about making adult movies, and he gave me the number of a director in LA named Bud Lee. I called this Bud guy, and he told me if I flew to LA, he could use me in a movie or two. So during winter break '93, I flew out to LA with just a suitcase and a teddy bear. I found that I liked making movies, then I married that Bud Lee guy, and the rest, as they say, is history.
I know some of you still think I'm "settling for less than I could achieve" in life, but all I can say is this: I'm happier than I've ever been in my life, and I don't consider that "settling" at all! I have a fun job that provides me with the time and money to do all the things I love, like playing piano, drawing, writing, and working on my web site! I've slowly lost the hard edge and the "fuck-the-world" attitude I had as a runaway, and gained a love for life that I never had before. I save and invest for the future, and I'm going to finish my degree at my leisure. After I'm done with adult, I'll be a mom, or a stock analyst, or knowing me, probably both. And when I die, I'm leaving behind a trust fund to provide help and shelter for abused and homeless children, so a little piece of me will live forever!
Hugs, Asia
p.s. I'm not mad at my parents. I know they just wanted me to be the best I could be, but they pushed too hard, that's all. Being successful is great, and it's a goal I strive for, but never at the expense of happiness. I think happiness should come first, and then success!
Would finding it for free absolve you of any guilt of her being stuck in that job? Technically speaking, you're not the one paying for it, so you're not paying her boss.
I'm not sure I see the relevance of paying for it or not.
And does watching cartoons of, let's face it BP, no offense... women being victimized by tentacles and stuff mean that you're blameless? I mean, how can you victimize a cartoon?
Not sure if you can or can't, but I'd love to watch Wilma spank Betty.
TheSilverKnight
05-12-2005, 03:45
Not sure if you can or can't, but I'd love to watch Wilma spank Betty.
... ~:eek: you cheeky bugger! no flintstones porn... ~;)
bmolsson
05-12-2005, 03:45
I have nothing against porn. Actually not even against prostitution. I am not a very large consumer though, get enough of it at home.
Being in a strip bar or having very sexy chicks serve your dinner is something really pleasant and it adds to the atmosphere of a good meal.
We have a golf club here in Jakarta with only young sexy girls working as caddies, servants, even cutting the grass. The really short skirts make a golf tour something extra......
And yes, I am a manschauvunist..... ~;)
God, I've been possessed by Jerry Springer...
Okay, let's look at that viewpoint Neon & Jag...
The whole idea of 'scale' of the material being shown... The woman is an actress, so whether she's receiving an enema or just making out and receiving heavy petting, she's almost assuredly faking any emotion for the camera. So, it's not about what she's actually into. It's about your cravings. Are some niches (straight sex, lesbians, soft core porn) okay and others (S&M type stuff) worse? Why?
I'm not condemning them. I just think they're laughably funny; I use 'absurd' for basically everything I find funny because I simply don't understand it. They can do it all they want; it's just mind-boggling.
Don Corleone
05-12-2005, 03:48
I'm not sure I see the relevance of paying for it or not.
Well, two posters have already begun their posts with "I never paid for it", not "I've never watched it..." Just wondering if that was important somehow, and if so, how?
Are some niches (straight sex, lesbians, soft core porn) okay and others (S&M type stuff) worse? Why?
As long as it's being performed by consenting adults, who cares if they stuff chickens up their rectums. Well, I guess it would be nice if the chickens consented as well.
Anyway, what people are like during daylight hours is not necessarily what they are like during the night. Who is to deny that one aspect of their behaviour is any more or less real than the other? If they are not hurting anyone, who cares what fetish they enjoy.
Don Corleone
05-12-2005, 03:51
I have nothing against porn. Actually not even against prostitution. I am not a very large consumer though, get enough of it at home.
Being in a strip bar or having very sexy chicks serve your dinner is something really pleasant and it adds to the atmosphere of a good meal.
We have a golf club here in Jakarta with only young sexy girls working as caddies, servants, even cutting the grass. The really short skirts make a golf tour something extra......
And yes, I am a manschauvunist..... ~;)
What's the slope of that course and the yardage, I might have to swing by when I'm in Singapore later this month....
Just kidding. But with 2 wives (right?), I imagine you don't really need much in the way of porn or prostitutes. But, let me ask you this. If you had daughters, would you be okay with them working at that golf club or the strip club you frequent?
Byzantine Prince
05-12-2005, 03:52
And does watching cartoons of, let's face it BP, no offense... women being victimized by tentacles and stuff mean that you're blameless? I mean, how can you victimize a cartoon?
You have the wrong idea about hentai. Very little is tentacle rape,lol. Most of it is softcore relationship stories which I enjoy watching with girls sometimes. They like and so do I, and it's not real so there's nothing to feel bad about.
As long as it's being performed by consenting adults, who cares if they stuff chickens up their rectums. Well, I guess it would be nice if the chickens consented as well.
Anyway, what people are like during daylight hours is not necessarily what they are like during the night. Who is to deny that one aspect of their behaviour is any more or less real than the other? If they are not hurting anyone, who cares what fetish they enjoy.
Whoa, you've seen that movie too?!
Tentacle rape? What the hell are you guys watching? Octopus sex at the cartoon aquarium?
I prefer the old fashioned one guy and three women stuff. That's sex the way God intended it.
:knight::kiss2::kiss2::kiss2:
Don Corleone
05-12-2005, 04:04
Hey now, you're getting close to breaking the no-insult rule. I don't care for Hentai myself, but I'm sure you've gotten spam emails with all the tentacles and crap. According to BP, apparently it's not a big part of it. In all honesty, I really wouldn't know. I prefer flesh and blood to ink.
Well I have to crash now, but I really want to see what Panzer, Redleg and Gawain have to say about all this.
G'night all.
:sleeping:
God, I've been possessed by Jerry Springer...
Okay, let's look at that viewpoint Neon & Jag...
The whole idea of 'scale' of the material being shown... The woman is an actress, so whether she's receiving an enema or just making out and receiving heavy petting, she's almost assuredly faking any emotion for the camera. So, it's not about what she's actually into. It's about your cravings. Are some niches (straight sex, lesbians, soft core porn) okay and others (S&M type stuff) worse? Why?
I stated that the S&M type stuff that is violent is wrong for the younger audience who may watch. It is not all that good for people who are just starting to get sexually aware to be thrust into the deep end right away with hardcore violent porn. That is why I think in this circumstance it is wrong. For fully fledged paid up members of the sexually active adult race, I wouldn't have a problem with any niches.
ICantSpellDawg
05-12-2005, 04:33
what is wrong with anything?
what is wrong with devouring human corpses? as long as you are refrigerating them
it is superstitious to believe that the corpse belongs to anyone
it harms no one in a real way
as for porn - i find it hilarious how so many say that it is ok to do
i personally love porn - but i dont need to rationalize it as a good thing before i do it
technically - it is not a good thing
but i watch it anyway - because i like to
i love it how people rationalize old morality and replace it with new morality when history teaches us that this new morality will become the old morality soon enough
Don Corleone
05-12-2005, 04:40
Well, Tuff, maybe not everyone subscribes to the old morality. I'm trying to work on my skills playing devil's advocate here, so bear with me.
I haven't seen a lot of people rationalize their views in light of old morality. I've seen people say that they have different views then what traditional morality says on the subject. Technically speaking, we all do, or when we engaged with coitus with our legally wed spouse, strictly for procreation, we would remain fully clothed.
But you raise a couple of interesting points too.
1) Why should we worry about whether it meets our personal standard of morality?
and
2) Are we wearing fig leaves on this particular issue. I'd chose a more tasteful example then your corpse devouring example, but your point is valid. Once you accept that victimless crimes are no crime at all, where does it end?
Byzantine Prince
05-12-2005, 04:49
what is wrong with anything?
what is wrong with devouring human corpses? as long as you are refrigerating them
it is superstitious to believe that the corpse belongs to anyone
it harms no one in a real way
as for porn - i find it hilarious how so many say that it is ok to do
i personally love porn - but i dont need to rationalize it as a good thing before i do it
technically - it is not a good thing
You just rationalized it didn't you? You said it's not a good thing.
i love it how people rationalize old morality and replace it with new morality when history teaches us that this new morality will become the old morality soon enough
Hell everything can be made moral. I think a better way to pose the question is which porn do you prefer. I personally wouldn't wanna expose myself to bestiality early on. It's pretty sick and it will mess up my head. It's not a moral issue but health one.
Also this brings up the criminality of causing pain on someone for your pleasure, or eating crap which is very unsanitary and could contract deseases.
If you feel up to it though go ahead and watch it. I feel bad for the people in the videos though, who lower themselves to be screwed by a dog ~:eek:
I like good wholesome hentai. It doesn't make me feel guilty at all.
Big_John
05-12-2005, 04:50
pretty much share JAG's pov on this one. i see nothing more inherently 'wrong' with porn than most jobs. it's exactly analogous to prostitution: people having sex directly for money. from what i understand the porn industry is already fairly well regulated, unlike prostitution.
i've never paid for any kind of porn, iirc. but i've DLed stuff from time to time (the urge comes and goes, i binge and purge, so to speak). using the internet, however has it's disadvantages; i've inadvertently glimpsed some things i'd rather not have (gay orgies, bestiality, tubgirl, etc).
i tend to follow the 'consensual' rule: if a person is not being forced by another person to do something, i can't see what would be unethical about it. the question came up of 'what if all these women were using porn to support their drug habits'. i don't think that makes a bit of difference. the problem in that case is the drug habit, not the porn. though the nature of the porn hiring practices might need looking into lol.
what about our daughters? honestly, if my daughter wanted to go into porn, i mean really had a desire to do that.. as long as she went in knowing as much as possible, with eyes wide open, i wouldn't feel more than a little uneasy about it. i'd certainly rather she did that than prostitution, simply because it seems much safer to me.
so what about the psychological affects of porn? well, one can ask similar questions about almost everything in society. in the end, i have to think people's responsibility is in thier own hands (or that of their gaurdians, for minors). if the 'oversexing' caused by porn leads to unhappiness in one's future, c'est la vie. if it can be shown that watching porn causes societal problems (such as increasing the likelihood that certain people will commit rape), then a society might do well to outlaw it. however, the cons of such an action might outweigh the pros.
Gawain of Orkeny
05-12-2005, 05:00
You have the wrong idea about hentai
Im not sure if thats what I saw but it was somr Japanamation and i couldnt believe all the gang rapes and the like in it. This is harmful porn of the worst kind.
As for adult movies I watch them and find nothing wrong with them. Me and my es used to watch them together. It really can be fun and and educational experience. As far as women doing it to support a drug habit its their choice. They were probably drug addcts already and would be prostituting themselves instead . I have no problem with that either however. I wish I could have gotten my drugs thats way. How is it if women get paid for sex we men are enslaving them? If we did it to them for nothing it would be more that way. How about the menin these movies . Are they being used any differently than the women?
Byzantine Prince
05-12-2005, 05:07
Im not sure if thats what I saw but it was somr Japanamation and i couldnt believe all the gang rapes and the like in it. This is harmful porn of the worst kind.
Even that is fake. It doesn't harm anyone, it's animation. Again it's not all like that anyways. I hate rape with every fiber of my being anyhow.
Gawain of Orkeny
05-12-2005, 05:22
Even that is fake. It doesn't harm anyone, it's animation. Again it's not all like that anyways. I hate rape with every fiber of my being anyhow.
Of course its fake its a cartoon. Thats one of the main problems I have with it. Kids your age shouldnt be watching crap like that. In fact no one should. I couldnt believe the violence in those and how they treated women. You couldnt get that on a a real porno movie because at least we do limit on it in some respects.
Byzantine Prince
05-12-2005, 05:26
You have no idea Gawain. I have seen the sickest most perverted porn imaginable and none of it compares to any Hentai. EDIT by Ser Clegane: now BP goes into some naughty details
Don Corleone
05-12-2005, 05:27
Look, we're trying to have a mature discussion about all of this. If you want to talk about what you're into, well, go ahead I guess, but it's certainly not required. But please, let's not see who can shock who. There's plenty of things I know I've seen I wish I never had. And like Forrestt Gump, that's all I have to say about that....
Gawain of Orkeny
05-12-2005, 05:29
EDIT by Ser Clegane: this refers to the naughty details from BP's post
None of this comes even close to that garbage your watching. @5 guys gang raping a woman and humiliating her. I dont care if its just a cartoon. Also bestiality is not legally sold here in the US nor is transexual rape.
You are viewing lyrics of No Bone Movies by OZZY OSBOURNE from the album Blizzard Of Ozz at LyricsAndSongs.COM
Silver screen, such a disgrace
I couldn't look her straight in the face
A blue addiction I live in disgust
Degradation, being eaten by lust
No bone movies
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Inspiration that's blue and uncut
Can't kick the habit, obsession of smut
Voyeur straining, in love with his hand
A poison passion, a pulsating gland
No bone movies
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I shouldn't do it, the guilt tells me why
I just can't stop it, I try and I try
X-rated demon that lives in my head
Hungry for bodge, and he wants to be fed
No bone movies
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ichi :bow:
Big_John
05-12-2005, 05:36
yeah, i know what you mean don. i wish i had never seen forrest gump either.
Byzantine Prince
05-12-2005, 05:38
Forest Gump is worse then any porn on a young man's mind. I watched it when I was 12 and never been the same. Now I actually demand QUALITY in the films I watch. ~D
Anyways don't blame all hentai for one crap movie. It's like condemning hollywood for movies like Gigli and Forest Gump. ~D
Gawain of Orkeny
05-12-2005, 05:44
Anyways don't blame all hentai for one crap movie
My family owns a video store. Ive seen more than one. I couldnt watch more than a few minutes of them though. Disgusting with no redeeming value other than the art work.
Don't be silly.
I can't stand 99% of them for that reason. But that doesn't stop the 1% being good. Then again, one mans brutal rape is anothers erotica.
bmolsson
05-12-2005, 06:23
But, let me ask you this. If you had daughters, would you be okay with them working at that golf club or the strip club you frequent?
Sure, as long as my duaghters turn out hot. Can't have the shame in the family with an ugly daughter showing her tits...... ~;)
bmolsson
05-12-2005, 06:30
My family owns a video store. Ive seen more than one. I couldnt watch more than a few minutes of them though. Disgusting with no redeeming value other than the art work.
How do you know if you didn't see the whole movie ?? ~;)
Gawain of Orkeny
05-12-2005, 06:34
How do you know if you didn't see the whole movie ??
OK you give me the redeemng factors in these movies. There are some that have none of this crap and are indeed very good.
PanzerJaeger
05-12-2005, 07:05
Moderation.. moderation.. moderation.
bmolsson
05-12-2005, 07:11
OK you give me the redeemng factors in these movies. There are some that have none of this crap and are indeed very good.
Busted !!! ~D
Tachikaze
05-12-2005, 07:57
Even on this "nonpolitical" issue, I still agree with JAG, which saves me from having to write my own original stuff.
One reason some of us disagree is because we might not have the same definitions of "porn". One person I used to debate with believed the word "porn" carried within it a negative connotation. So, naturally, it had to be "bad" by definition.
I consider pornagraphy to be the male version of the female romance novel. They both serve a similar purpose.
And I have paid for porn. I learned a lot about making love to a woman by watching it (carefully selected). The Japanese stuff shows lots of healthy foreplay that women adore. My wife likes to watch it, too. She even recorded Korean erotic films from Japanese TV.
By the way, if there's one thing I may be considered conservative about, it's sex. I'm not into much "unusual" stuff.
AntiochusIII
05-12-2005, 08:02
Why, I am in agreement with JAG here - the inexperienced should not be put into misunderstanding, as it can leads to damaging consequences - but consenting, mature people have the personal rights to engage in sexual relationship with whatever reason they have unless it deals with being "forced" or "necessity" (in which the latter will be society's fault. ;) )
However, I see that the discussion is going towards the discussion of taste - like how disgusting or how cool Hentai is.
I have my opinion ~;p, but...
Byzantine Prince
05-12-2005, 08:27
Porn has existed since the beggining of time. You can find it on walls in Pompeii and in 1800's photographs. It has always existed so people wouldn't go crazy. I don't see how anyone could illigalize the porn industry, it's impossible.
Now what we have to do is make and enforce laws against bestiality, crap-eating, rape, and kiddie porn and we're set. As long as it's none of those things porn is perfectly fine, the same way that smoking a little, and drinking a little is never gonna kill you or even harm you neither is porn.
Ja'chyra
05-12-2005, 08:36
Porn has existed since the beggining of time.
Lol, maybe not but I take your point.
I don't think there is anything wrong with porn as long as it is for adults, and was performed by consenting adults.
If people agree to do it and others want to watch it then it has nothing to do with anyone else.
bmolsson
05-12-2005, 08:48
I don't think there is anything wrong with porn as long as it is for adults, and was performed by consenting adults.
and was performed by consenting good looking adults. ~;)
Ja'chyra
05-12-2005, 09:20
and was performed by consenting good looking adults. ~;)
Oh, most important of all, thanks B, I shudder to think what that could have resulted in ~:eek:
English assassin
05-12-2005, 10:26
Weeeel, for the sake of argument....
There are downsides to porn. In some ways its like a drug. A drug can make you feel great, that you are on top of the world, but its not a real feeling. When the drug wears off you are back where you started. Its not the same experience as, say, working hard at something and getting a real achievement (working out and getting good at a sport, being Bill gates, whatever floats your boat.)
Now, that doesn't mean drugs are bad, so long as you understand they are a little holiday from real life, not a substitute for it.
Likewise with porn. Lets face it, we all, or almost all, like looking at the ladies. maybe some people like softcore is enough (I think it was Sid Vicious who said sex was like picking your nose, fun when you were doing it but no fun to watch someone else. Not my opinion but then I wasn't banging Nancy Spungen), some people prefer hardcore, Obviously a few like the tentacles. Whatever. The point is, even taking it as a given that the actors are consenting, porn CAN still be harmful if you lose sight of the fact that its not real life. In real life you have to have reasonably long term relationships with one woman at a time (Beruit, behave). Its not exactly what you see in porn movies. If you want your life to be like a porn movie you are going to be very disappointed in your relationships.
But the problem is not so much with porn as with how people understand it. Its probably no more (or less) serious than using pretty girls in bikinis to sell cars. Once you realise that just because you buy a Ford Felatio it doesn't mean that cheerleaders are going to be fighting each other to get into the back seat with you, you can just enjoy the girls in the ads. Much the same with porn IMHO
Paul Peru
05-12-2005, 10:53
So, we have a piece of pronography. Is it good, evil, bad, reprehensible, whatever?
I say no. It is an object like any other.
What has lead up to the existence of this object? It may be something good. It may be something bad.
Dream scenario: Some people come together, have a great time living out their fantasies, enjoying great sex, make a comfortable living, support society by paying taxes from their profits.
Nightmare scenario: Mafia figures enslave unfortunate girls (and maybe boys, dogs, sheep etc.) and subject them to humiliating (at best) treatment, beat them up, get them hooked on drugs if they're not already, and kill them when they've served their purpose. Money remains in the black economy, building it up for the future take-over of world.
Most porn is produced somewhere in between, right? A bit like tobacco or something.
If there were a certifying authority to guarantee the ethical standards follwed in the production of porn, I'd call it permissible. Max Havelaar porn ~;)
Porn being illegal in some countries contributes to pushing it towards the nightmare scenario. Information and some regulation is in order.
On the consumer side I do think it can be damaging to watch at least some porn. Certainly to young and/or particularly vulnerable people. (the previous post, by EA, is spot on) Any relation between porn and rape is dubious AFAIK. I'd say it's infinitely better to watch porn than to go out and rape someone, but if someone watches porn and gets inspired to go out and rape someone, that's bad, IMO. ~;)
Personally, I find most of it unappealing, which is not to say I'm immune to getting aroused by it or anything. I can do without it, and I think I'm better off for not watching porn. If it works for you and does no damage to your relations to other people, go ahaead.
But be careful.
I have spoken. :help:
There is no doubt that guys who are too young should not watch it. It's pretty obvious that they'll pick up ideas that they might not have had otherwise, or at least should be allowed to develop on their own.
On the other hand, restristing boys (young teenagers) from seeing porno is like telling them they can't smoke or drink beer. Sounds great - won't work. Experimentation and discovery (often destructive or self-destructive) are the hallmarks of teenagerhood.
Templar Knight
05-12-2005, 12:01
I have never been a fan of porn. Some of it can be a laugh, but to watch it all the time, its not healthy. Its not good in my opinion because of the psychological and social effects it has on some people, causing them to turn into someone that they are not, especially if they are exposed to it at a young age.
hmm porn, probably one of those issues I really dont give a crap about....
hmm, so why am I posting here?
*looks at his fingers typing*
gha!
.... *spasms and falls of the chair*
bmolsson
05-12-2005, 13:40
I had a discussion with the head of Indonesian intelligence (BIN) about censoring internet. He told me off the record that they didn't see any reason to censor out porn from internet, since it was better the little jobless muslim boys where better having in the local internet cafes masturbating to playboy, than being on the streets creating riots............
Big_John
05-12-2005, 15:02
lol i wonder what marx would have said about the modern porn industry..
lancelot
05-12-2005, 15:24
On the other, you can argue that pornography victimizes women. As much as we like it, every time we watch it, we're supporting the enslavement of some young woman out in California (or wherever the film Private movies over in Europe).
I dont agree with this statement Im afraid...
Its a well known fact that a female 'star' on her first day of 'work' will earn more than the most popular male 'star'. And is probably one of the very few (if any) industries where that is the case.
I dont really consider that victimisation.
Tachikaze
05-12-2005, 15:26
Some people who are writing here are assuming that "porn" means "unconventional", "bizarre", "crude", "freakish", "disturbing", "seedy". Watching X-rated movies in my teens gave me a healthier attitude about sex than I had gotten from a society that implies, or explicitly states, that sex is disgusting or even evil. Maybe at that time it was more conventional onscreen than today, I don't know.
as every hot blooded heterosexual male knows porn isn´t "allright"...it´s the best damn thing ever!!! ~D
99% of the population agrees with this statement....the other 1% are bloody liars... ~:cheers:
p.s.-it is understood by the "guy code" that one might have to lie about the subject when on the company of a girlfriend or wife....don´t worry...the truth is understood. ~;)
Ser Clegane
05-12-2005, 15:47
Look, we're trying to have a mature discussion about all of this. If you want to talk about what you're into, well, go ahead I guess, but it's certainly not required. But please, let's not see who can shock who. There's plenty of things I know I've seen I wish I never had. And like Forrestt Gump, that's all I have to say about that....
I second this - I have no problem if the pro and contra of pornpgraphy is discussed in the Backroom.
What I do not want to read here are detailed and graphic descriptions of what individual people have seen.
If I find the time I will take the freedom to edit individual posts. This is not to chastize individual patrons but to make this thread at least a bit more PG-13 ~;)
After this announcement, repeated attempts of dragging this thread down might however be considered as violations of the forum rules and would be treated accordingly.
Thanks for your attention ... proceed with the discussion please :bow:
Big_John
05-12-2005, 16:33
I dont agree with this statement Im afraid...
Its a well known fact that a female 'star' on her first day of 'work' will earn more than the most popular male 'star'. And is probably one of the very few (if any) industries where that is the case.i read somewhere that there are 3 major occupational categories in which women make more money than men, on average; pornography/stripping, prostitution, and modeling. don't know how accurate that is though.
Gawain of Orkeny
05-12-2005, 16:38
i read somewhere that there are 3 major occupational categories in which women make more money than men, on average; pornography/stripping, prostitution,
Well that explains why most of these things are considered ilegal or immoral ~D
Don Corleone
05-13-2005, 00:02
Just because women make more than men doesn't mean they're not victimized. It doesn't mean they are either. I'm asking the question, not pontificating (for once, it can be done!) I definitely agree with Gawain's comments from last night that it's unfair to talk about the 'victim's' in this being solely women. It's probably a little bit easier for uneducated healthy American men to find a sustainable wage doing something a little more conventional, but that doesn't mean women can't too....
Okay, I think I'm hearing a majority of the group say they don't think the actresses & the actors are victims. I haven't heard much dissent from the other side.
Okay, well, do you think society as a whole gets victimized? Porn allows women and men viewers to make their fantasies (which arguably, at times are unhealthy) one step closer to reality. Do the walls of reality start to break down as you approach them? If seeing somebody verbally degraded as some sort of 'foreplay' excites you, does it encourage you to proceed that way in your own life?
Does seeing casual encounters develop into steamy sessions come to put a certain expectation of MOS (or MSS for that matter) that you meet and find attractive?
Also, not to beat a dead horse, but just to revisit the whole idea of who's doing what and why...
The #1 theme in American porn (can't speak for other parts of the world) is lesbian porn. As special interests go, it is the #1 by far. When interviewed in magazines or on camera, to promote their careers, most actresses talk about how much they really get into other women, and how they love the fact that porn opened that side of their sexuality. Now remember, even off camera (as far as the movie goes) the actress is selling herself as your fantasy. It ain't so hot to watch Jenna Jameson do her stuff if in the back of your mind you were thinking "aah, she's faking it." But here comes the kicker... an anonymous survey of pornstars in Hollywood and Florida found that most are not homosexual or even bisexual. To them, they're engaging in a practice they do not particularly enjoy, because they want to get paid. Most retired pornstars confirm this. I might gripe about my job forcing me to do things I don't want to do, but even when that's not just a rant, thankfully, I'm not compromising things so dear to me as my sexual identity. I think it's a little disingenous to just say "well, every job has it's ups and downs" (no pun intended). And just to be fair, I think it goes double for gay porn. A lot of the male actors are in their own minds, strictly hetero.
As long as all participants are of legal age and totally consenting, I in principle have no problem with it. However, I can't say I watched much of it at all since my teens.
I guess the only version of porn where one can safely claim that there is no victimization involved are the cases when exhibitionist couples photograph/film themselves in the act and knowingly and willingly distribute it later. At least you can be sure they are having fun.
Proletariat
05-13-2005, 01:09
Okay, I think I'm hearing a majority of the group say they don't think the actresses & the actors are victims. I haven't heard much dissent from the other side.
Gimme a minute. I wanna warm up, first. :gring:
Okay, well, do you think society as a whole gets victimized?
This is the biggest misconception about these so called 'victimless' crimes. Sure, someone smoking pot, shooting up, paying for sex, or watching goats fondle pastries individually hurts nothing. But when you have a society of hedonism, it leads to depravity and cultural decay. Like Panzer said, moderation, moderation, moderation. Even a group needs this balance.
A nice debauched weekend in Amsterdam would've been wonderful when I was in high school, or maybe even some other time. It has it's place. But can you imagine a whole planet living like that? The idea makes me sick.
Anyway, back to porn. Porn is like just about any other seedy industry. For the most part, it's not that big of a deal. But to deny the victimization of it's stars and starlets is just foolish. While there is a chicken-egg relationship between this industry and the types that are attracted to seek employment by it, over looking the 'evil' aspects of the industry is a little naive.
It's not just a 'a bunch of people getting off and getting paid so don't hate fewls' type thing. There's lots of manipulation and taking advantage.
I really wish I could find an interview some girl named 'Belladonna' did on Dateline a few years ago. Her tale was horrifying about how she compromised herself and kept coming back for more. It included one awful story about a movie she was in that sent her packing for year. And apparently she's one of the 'household' names of porn.
Also, I'm not judging anyone here who watches porn. I've watched a small bit myself (with the right company) but probably not as much as you prurient, bunch of lewds. But let's not pretend it's just some big, fun pastime with no consequences to any involved.
Kanamori
05-13-2005, 01:29
"But let's not pretend it's just some big, fun pastime with no consequences to any involved."
Amen, I would like to see more explicit laws trying to protect against the manipulation - contracts meant to trick them or what have you - of the "actors".
bmolsson
05-13-2005, 02:57
The word victim is really interesting here. If you see a woman in a porno movie as a victim, what is then a soldier in Iraq ?
The prostitute don't want to get beaten or get HIV, neither does the soldier want to get killed in action or end up as a hostage at a terrorist group.
In all jobs and activities you have to be cautious and there are always risks you need to assess. In the end, the adult individual is in full control of his/her body and have to make the decisions they believe is best for them.
Don Corleone
05-13-2005, 03:04
You know Bmolsson, that's a very interesting viewpoint. I hadn't thought about it quite like that.
Amen, I would like to see more explicit laws trying to protect against the manipulation - contracts meant to trick them or what have you - of the "actors".
I can't imagine any contract that says "the party of the first part will perform intercourse with the party of the second part" would last ten seconds in any court in the US. Except in California of course.
Then again... can an adult fim star be in breach of contract for not (insert imaginative sexual act here) as described on paper and signed by them? Other than being fired, what do you do to them? Sue them?
The other person says in court "Your Honour, I got ******!" Then the judge says, "Um, not according to your testimony you didn't."
English assassin
05-13-2005, 10:09
I can see where Proletariat is coming from, but I don't think the argument can be taken too far.
First, we are all taking it as a given that consent is essential. But the trouble with worrying about "manipulation" (pun unintended) is its a much trickier concept. Put plainly, a drug addict may be doing porn to feed her habit, but a drug addicts consent is still a consent. An actress may want to limit her role in a film to, I don't know, straight boy on girl sex, but when the slease making the film says she won't get a part (pun unintended) unless she also does, say, girl on girl, her decision to do that, or not, is still a consent.
Basically we all agree to do things that in a completely free world we wouldn't do. I would never have left science for the legal world if it wasn't for all the extra wedge lawyers are paid. Was I manipulated? More importantly, can I complain?
Basically if you are too down on porn what you are saying is that the actresses (and actors) have no right to sell pictures of themselves having sex. That's taking a valuable asset away from them. It can be OK to do that, but it needs a strong justification.
Where I thought the argument might go was the effect of the interviews in which the actresses say things like " I just love (insert various "advanced" sexual practices here) with strangers and I think most girls do." Now, at the ripe old age of 35 I have come to accept that in fact most women are NOT amoral bisexual nymphomaniacs (this is not wholly a bad thing, its quite comforting to think I can go home tonight and find my wife has spent the day looking after the children rather than having threeway sex with the postman and the woman next door). But what do 16 year old boys think? And what do 16 year old girls think when 16 year old boys pressure them to do all the stuff they see in porn "because everyone must be doing it"? I mean, its not exactly like finding a Playboy that your dad "accidentally" left out on his bedroom floor any more is it?
And it does have effects. I gather from an interview I read on London's vice trade that whereas not so long ago most working girls could restrict their menu to pretty mainstream stuff, (shall we say stuff that would be grounds for a divorce if your husband/wife wouldn't deliver and leave it at that) now its simply accepted that everyone has to agree to more or less anything.
Also on a purely practical level I would like my children to be able to go on the internet without discovering about (insert various "advanced" sexual practices here) at the age of 9.
Gawain of Orkeny
05-13-2005, 15:48
Arent all workers manipulated?
Arent all workers manipulated?
Gawain....how communist of you ~D
Kanamori
05-13-2005, 16:38
Porno actresses and actors tend not to be shining examples of intellect and ability. Lower class people tend to be unfairly, compared to how other workers are taken advantage of, manipulated in the armed forces and pornos, because of where the abuse can go and how suseptible they are, given that, like it or not, people in the Army (not Navy and Airforce) and pron industry tend to be less educated.
Proletariat
05-13-2005, 23:58
Nevermind.
Productivity
05-14-2005, 04:53
I dont agree with this statement Im afraid...
Its a well known fact that a female 'star' on her first day of 'work' will earn more than the most popular male 'star'. And is probably one of the very few (if any) industries where that is the case.
I dont really consider that victimisation.
I refer you to my post (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=774841&postcount=8). I'm struggling to class that as anythign other than victimisation. The fact that she didn't mind/liked it in the end is irrelevant. There will be plenty who don't, but are forced to stay through their own situations.
Big_John
05-14-2005, 05:34
I refer you to my post (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=774841&postcount=8). I'm struggling to class that as anythign other than victimisation. The fact that she didn't mind/liked it in the end is irrelevant. There will be plenty who don't, but are forced to stay through their own situations.are you refering to her childhood/teenage years (being beaten for not getting good grades, runny away, etc.)? because other than that, i don't see the victimization you are refering to.
I would disagree with Corleone's statement about lesbian porn. I wouldn't say it's the most popular form of porn in North America. It probably was at one time, though.
I watched a documentary once about a male porn star who got addicted to heroin at one point in his career and worked in porn in order to feed his habit, but he was clean (so to speak) when he started to work in the industry.
I think laws that limit types of pornography, much like the anti-child pornography laws, serve only to keep the things they hope to ban alive. "The only way to ensure something survives is to repress it". Besides, an outlet like porn is much safer than having someone commit the crimes themselves. I don't agree with persecuting men who go to Thailand for sex with kids, though. If it's not legal in Thailand, and even if it isn't, their home nation has no real argument to be creating consequences for someone's breaking of the law in another country.
Dîn-Heru
05-14-2005, 22:09
As with most things, it depends.
Studies on the effects of of pornography tends to focus on sexual violence, ie the woman first resisting, then giving in and finally begging for more. These studies sugesst that viewing such material can distort one's perceptions of how women actually respond to sexual coercion and increase men's agression against women, atleast in laboratory settings.
(I can give examples of some of these studies, but it will have to wait until tomorrow evening, because I am studying for my exams these days. So the only sparetime is in the evenings)
But like some here has said it is not bad in itself, at least as long as it does not depict a "rape/ submissive (inferior) female" scenario. So as long as it shows one or more concenting adults on equal terms, I do not see anything wrong with it.
But like some here has said it is not bad in itself, at least as long as it does not depict a "rape/ submissive (inferior) female" scenario. So as long as it shows one or more concenting adults on equal terms, I do not see anything wrong with it.
I agree with the rape part, but what's wrong with the submissive female scenario?
Sounds bloody A1 fine to me! On film and in real life. And what's with this equal terms business? Maybe when it's paycheck time or at the civil rights checkout counter, but not in the bedroom brother. That's the lion's den.
Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to my Male Chauvenist Club meeting.
I agree with the rape part, but what's wrong with the submissive female scenario?
Sounds bloody A1 fine to me! On film and in real life. And what's with this equal terms business? Maybe when it's paycheck time or at the civil rights checkout counter, but not in the bedroom brother. That's the lion's den.
Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to my Male Chauvenist Club meeting.
I wouldn't say it's chauvinism. Every girl with whom I have discussed it has admitted to having "the rape fantasy". To say that women are submissive is a just a generalisation, but it is my experience that they are, sexually, for the most part.
Productivity
05-15-2005, 02:41
are you refering to her childhood/teenage years (being beaten for not getting good grades, runny away, etc.)? because other than that, i don't see the victimization you are refering to.
She wasn't victimized later on because she happened to like it. The extrapolation is that htere would be those who did not like, and then they are the ones who are victimized.
Gawain of Orkeny
05-15-2005, 02:48
Studies on the effects of of pornography tends to focus on sexual violence, ie the woman first resisting, then giving in and finally begging for more. These studies sugesst that viewing such material can distort one's perceptions of how women actually respond to sexual coercion and increase men's agression against women, atleast in laboratory settings.
I dont know that rape is allowed in porn movies here in the US. Ive watched thousands ~;) and cant remember a one. Its fine in regular movies though. Strange is it not? In fact it far far more prevelant in R rated movies than XXX. You also can no longer have bondage and sex in the same scene or beastiality. At least here in NY. I dont know if its a national law.
Big_John
05-15-2005, 03:11
She wasn't victimized later on because she happened to like it.ok, so it wasn't victimization then.
The extrapolation is that htere would be those who did not like, and then they are the ones who are victimized.i don't understand what you are referring to though; what is the potential victimization (i mean can you give me an example)? why is it contingent upon the participant enjoying it? lots of people don't enjoy their jobs, does that make them victims? i mean, i hated my first job way back moping floors.. was i being victimized by safeway? if so, can i sue them??? ~D
You also can no longer have bondage and sex in the same scene or beastiality. At least here in NY.
New York without beastiality?
That's like London without fog.
bmolsson
05-15-2005, 04:37
So as long as it shows one or more concenting adults on equal terms, I do not see anything wrong with it.
Well, we should sit when we pee too huh...... ~D
Productivity
05-15-2005, 04:46
i don't understand what you are referring to though; what is the potential victimization (i mean can you give me an example)? why is it contingent upon the participant enjoying it? lots of people don't enjoy their jobs, does that make them victims? i mean, i hated my first job way back moping floors.. was i being victimized by safeway? if so, can i sue them??? ~D
But you came to them didn't you? They didn't realise you were a isolated young kid who they could persuade/trick into doing things which you may very well not want to do did they?
The victimisation occurs when they take someone who is obviously isolated, and in trouble and use that as a lever to get them into the erotic business.
Big_John
05-15-2005, 06:13
well, you make it sound like an abduction dgb. i don't share this belief. undoubtedly, there may be some people that felt as if they had no prospects in life, and were approached by pornographers offering them a way to make more money than they were used to. i think it's more than a stretch to call this victimization.
for one thing, what exactly is being taken from such a person? it's not as if they're being robbed or raped. they're being paid. if they don't like what they're doing, they can stop, afaik. if they choose to use that pay to support a drug habit, or to buy a gun and blow their brains out.. they are victims of themselves, their own choices, not the porn industry.
are they being taken advantage of in some sense? maybe, depends on the person i guess. but how does this differ from any occupation? is anyone who settles for some shit job because they don't feel like they can do anything else a victim?
i have a hard time buying this idea that someone is being "tricked" into having sex on camera when they really don't want to do this. they may regret it later, sure, and they may have been in a vulnerable emotional state when they agreed to get paid for it. imo, this is not a victim of anyone but themselves and their own shortcomings. maybe it's just a difference of definition.
Dîn-Heru
05-15-2005, 09:39
I agree with the rape part, but what's wrong with the submissive female scenario?
I wrote inferior in parentaces (sp?) because I was not sure if submissive was the right word to use, because what I was thinking about was the notion that women do not want to have sex and are subject to the will of a man.
If a female chooses to be submissive, then by all means congratulations to you.
As for the equal terms, I meant that all involved are free to choose the level of submisivness/assertiveness.
Personally, I just don't like to see women treated like pieces of meat, although I am probably quilty of thinking like this at times as well.
Well, we should sit when we pee too huh......
(For the serious reply look above.)
Well that depends too, if you have a very, how shall we put it, strongminded woman who dislike you missing bowl, then it would probably be a good idea for you to sit. But other than that I see no reason to change our ways, unless you have very poor aim... ~;)
Personally, I just don't like to see women treated like pieces of meat, although I am probably quilty of thinking like this at times as well.
Well you don't just treat them like a piece of meat, you treat them like filet mignon; a very expensive, top of the line, delicious piece of meat.
I constantly tell my sweetie she's Prime Rib.
(And she constantly tells me I'm an idiot.)
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