Dutchies and frenchies, what are you going to vote?

[Fragony]

I have no idea how to make a poll, so this will have to do.Of course, we are talking about the european constitution.

Fragony votes NO.

[Ser Clegane]

Now you have a poll ~:)

[KukriKhan]

To make a poll: next time you Start a New Thread, before clicking "submit", scroll down the page more, and see the 'make this a poll' option. Other options follow (up to 20 poll choices, etc.).

So, France & Netherlands are doing a popular vote, not a parliamentary one?

edit: whups; honorable Ser Clegane to the rescue. ~D

[Al Khalifah]

If the Dutch and the French pass it and we finally get a referendum in the UK and if they manage to get a postal ballot out here then I'll give them a big:


NO NO NO NO NO NO NO
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO


But thanks for asking ~:)

[Fragony]

To make a poll: next time you Start a New Thread, before clicking "submit", scroll down the page more, and see the 'make this a poll' option. Other options follow (up to 20 poll choices, etc.).

So, France & Netherlands are doing a popular vote, not a parliamentary one?

edit: whups; honorable Ser Clegane to the rescue. ~D

Yes, but they can ignore the outcome which they will no doubt do as the no camp is getting stronger every day, so far the 'yes' camp does little more then relying on scare tactics like war and holocaust. It is a bit like the european constitution, countries can express their discomfort to a commision but that commision doesn't has to listen ~D ~D

and ser merci mia muca.

[Lazul]

We swedes wont even get to vote! f**king right wing social democrats dont believe in democracy anymore it seams!

I would have voted No and hoped the EU would crumble and fall apart and free us from its damned chains!

... yeah, I kinda hate the EU ~;)

[Drisos]

drisos would vote: NO!!

if he was 18 or older . . .

[Templar Knight]

When it comes to the UK I will vote 'NO'

[Kanamori]

What is the reasoning of the "no" side?

[Fragony]

What is the reasoning of the "no" side?

I thought you would never ask! The most important:

Because the weight of 'votes' will depend on the number of people that live in a country, so the bigger countries get more to say. There WILL be a commision where minimal 7 countries of the EU will be able to express their discomfort if they unite, but there is no law that forces the EU to listen. Holland is an economic giant compared to the states in the east, and we will become something like belgium ;)

[Kanamori]

So, it is mostly the lack of equal representation between member states, much like the debate over the Virginia plan and the New Jersey plan?

[Don Corleone]

From what I understand the Union of the European States is a lot more stringent than the Constitution's Union of American States. Unlike here in the US, there's no "any powers not specifically delegated to Congress" clause. Not that that really works over here any more anyway, thanks to the oh-so conveniant interstate commerce clause.

But if the Netherlands has a law that you can't eat a bagel with a hat on your head, and France & Germany decide they don't like that law, they can just vote the Netherland's no hat law out of existence. No court appeals process possible (again, not that that actually does much over here).

[BDC]

The French president said how it promoted a French economic view and French values.

From this I deduce that the 'no' campaign in Britain (assuming it's ever needed) will consist solely of clips of the French president saying that. But then again he's a known liar...

[Fragony]

From what I understand the Union of the European States is a lot more stringent than the Constitution's Union of American States.

Unlike the united states, there is no common interest. Europe will always be a arena where everyone represents their own country. In america you can move a state south and walk into a different culture, but in europe you walk into a different country, and we all have our histories. IF such a thing as a united europe could work, it would take at least another centurie.

[Duke Malcolm]

But if the Netherlands has a law that you can't eat a bagel with a hat on your head, and France & Germany decide they don't like that law, they can just vote the Netherland's no hat law out of existence. No court appeals process possible (again, not that that actually does much over here).

The EU cannot repeal laws made by countries. The European Court of Human Rights (I think that is what it is called) can repeal laws which contravene the European Convention of Human Rights, though, but that would need a Dutch person to go to the court and complain. Also, the countries' own courts can repeal laws which contravene existing EU laws, but I think that the countries can have a certain amount of control over what can be repealled. The EU itself cannot repeal laws, however.

[Don Corleone]

The French president said how it promoted a French economic view and French values.

From this I deduce that the 'no' campaign in Britain (assuming it's ever needed) will consist solely of clips of the French president saying that. But then again he's a known liar...


Hehehehe, reminds me of that signature somebody had one time (can't remember who now) by Marlborough "we have always been, and we should pray we always will be, hated in France". Or was it Nelson?

[Templar Knight]

Hehehehe, reminds me of that signature somebody had one time (can't remember who now) by Marlborough "we have always been, and we should pray we always will be, hated in France". Or was it Nelson?

Wellington ~:)

[Al Khalifah]

Because the weight of 'votes' will depend on the number of people that live in a country, so the bigger countries get more to say.
Yeah but unfortunately this system isn't proportional. Malta has 1 MEP per around 45,000 people while Germany has 1 MEP per around 800,000 people. Not quite democracy.

[JAG]

I will vote yes when it comes to the UK for ratification - France and Holland will pass it imo.

And I am sure the UK will also pass it, when the facts coem out we will see sense.

[Duke Malcolm]

See sense and vote no.

[zelda12]

Part of me wants to vote YES, part NO. Its all very confusing and I don't know all the facts but basically I divide it down two sides.

The NO's vote no for several reason's one being economic fear such as being forced to use the Euro and the destruction of the current high spot the British economy is at.

The YES's in me are not saying anything about economic gain or ruin that may come from joining, but rather the insistence that 50,000,000 people died because Europeans couldn't sit down at the same table together. It’s because when I look into the future I want to see a brave new world where Europe is one united state for the first time. For the first time what no conqueror with the sword ever achieved simple men did with pens. I want a Europe that stands united together I want a place that has seen no peace for more than 50 years since time began. (Not including this century of course.) I want my children to grow up in a place that accepts that its people come from different backgrounds and live different lives but instead of letting this fuel the fire of hatred it is used to grow and nourish the state and enrich all lives. It’s a dream...but this dream is on the verge of reality and I want to see the dream become reality in my lifetime.

[JAG]

Zelda, also don't be afraid of joining the Euro - it will have great benefits to our economy, whether it be foreign direct investment or better export revenue. The economic benefits of joining the Euro are undoubted, it is those who merely want to cling onto a currency which oppose it. I happen to think tradition for traditions sake is quite sickening.

[BDC]

Zelda, also don't be afraid of joining the Euro - it will have great benefits to our economy, whether it be foreign direct investment or better export revenue. The economic benefits of joining the Euro are undoubted, it is those who merely want to cling onto a currency which oppose it. I happen to think tradition for traditions sake is quite sickening.
Yes but it will also let the French have more say in our economy. On the other hand it will mean the Germans will too, so maybe it will cancel out...

[English assassin]

The EU cannot repeal laws made by countries.

Eh? Can it be that Factotame Ltd v Secretary of State for Transport (No 2) [1991] 1 AC 603 HL is not common knowledge in your school? (Joking)

Anyway, I give you para 1.75 of "English Public Law" 2004 edition. (17 authors, not one less than a full professor)

"Membership of the Union has considerable implications for constitutional law in England. In the first place, the courts will no longer apply legislation inconsistent with directly effective provisions of Community law"

(pausing there, that was Factotame, kids)

"Second, the courts are required by ECA 1972 to comply with the principles of Community Law. ...Community law imposes an obligation on courts of last resort to refer questions about the meaning and validity [of Community Law] to the ECJ. These questions include disputes about the relationship of Community and national law. It follows that the EC now has the last word on questions of ultimate constitutional authority in the United Kingdom...at least as far as Community law is concerned."

Seems pretty clear to me.

[English assassin]

The European Court of Human Rights (I think that is what it is called) can repeal laws which contravene the European Convention of Human Rights,

Actually, and ironically, it can't. The ECHR is nothing to do with the EU, and in a dualist legal system such as the UK (where international treaty obligations have no effect until enacted into domestic law) an ECHR judgement has no legal effect per se. Holland has a monist legal system though and the position may be different there

[Duke Malcolm]

How interesting, I never knew that. All the more reason to leave the Union... I don't want a bunch of European-types telling me what I can and cannot do...

But can't the EU only legislate on things about the economy, and labour thingies?

[Duke Malcolm]

Actually, and ironically, it can't. The ECHR is nothing to do with the EU, and in a dualist legal system such as the UK (where international treaty obligations have no effect until enacted into domestic law) an ECHR judgement has no legal effect per se. Holland has a monist legal system though and the position may be different there

Really? Pperhaps I am thinking of another court, then.
By-the-by, what does dualist and monist legal system mean?

[English assassin]

By-the-by, what does dualist and monist legal system mean?

In a dualist system international treaty rights have no effect until the domestic legislature passes them into domestic law. Its why we needed the Human Rights Act 1998 to give effect to the ECHR, even though we signed the ECHR in about 1951.


But can't the EU only legislate on things about the economy, and labour thingies?

And the environment and a bit else besides. And they interpret that as meaning they can legislate on anything that could remotely be said to have the slightest impact on anything in the treaty.

I'm not sure I would mind so much but Eurolaw is such CRAP. Its all just vague waffle that the civil servants and judges then twist to suit their agendas. I swear they start ioff with a half baked idea, translate it into Polish to see if it looks any better, then into french via welsh and finally they get an Italian tourist who wandered into the office by mistake to translate in into English.

Give me a decent Act of Parliament that actually tells you what the bloody law is, and English judges who are only to happy to shaft the draftsman if by chance he has left some ambiguity in there.

[zelda12]

The UK has no actual constitution and is technically still a Monarchy. We have no written constitution, as I say, its more like a series of unwritten rules (They are written in the laws. But as I said technicaly the Queen can do as she bloody well pleases if she ever wanted to.)

[Meneldil]

Well, I was firstly aiming to vote 'no', but since the 'no' guys are just over-stupid (in France at least) and hypocritical, I'm going to vote yes.

And yes, the Constitution, though not entirely based on French values has been inspired largely by French politicians. That's why I almost die from laughing (or sadness) )when I hear french people saying 'This is some anglo-saxon liberal crap', or 'It will kill democracy'.

Right now, the yes is a bit higher than the no in polls (52 to 48), but a few weeks ago it was 42% for the yes and 58% for the no, but I still doubt the yes will win (though we can always have a 2nd popular vote later on).

[Brenus]

I won’t vote. I can’t go to the Consulate in London. If I should vote I’ll probably vote NO.
The EU constitution, for what I understood, is just recapitulating different treaties and will stop any improvement. It went for the lowest common dominator…
Concerning economy, most of the rules are IMPOSED by non-elected members throughout treaties signed between states or BIG organisations such the IMF or the International Trade Treaty (something like that). So much for the European-like people…
For the English, they have to realise that 80% of their trade is wit EU, not the rest of the world. In my company, most of the parts we receive are coming from FRANCE. Or Germany, or Sweden…
The irony of all is the British see Europe as French and the French as Anglo-Saxon (meaning US by the way).
If you want vote NO vote it for GOOD reasons (political) and not for prejudices and others craps.
I am a Pro-European, a real one but I don’t want what our managers are preparing for us. It will be an open door to exploitation of the poorest by the richest. Well, nothing new, I agree, but at least, this time, we are able to say we disagree.
I am fully confident that the Chirac and other will find out how to turn over the people will and include France in the market. It isn’t a construction of Europe; it is the constitution of a bigger cake to eat…

[Ironside]

We swedes wont even get to vote! f**king right wing social democrats dont believe in democracy anymore it seams!

I would have voted No and hoped the EU would crumble and fall apart and free us from its damned chains!

... yeah, I kinda hate the EU ~;)

They learned something from the EMU-election ~;)

Personally I think that it has gone forwards too fast. This will create a big (not the small current one that exists) rejection in the end. And the aftermarch of that rejection will take a long time to repair.


Yeah but unfortunately this system isn't proportional. Malta has 1 MEP per around 45,000 people while Germany has 1 MEP per around 800,000 people. Not quite democracy.

Having only the big ones to run everything can't be called democracy either. :book: The problem with full population reprensentation is that today, is the countries inside EU still putting themself above EU.
The stability pact anyone?

[bmolsson]

It has to be Yes. If not we have to invade them....

[Meneldil]

Ironside, democracy is about demos (sp?), the people. If country with the more people (who btw spend the most money for europe) have as much voice as countries with a few thousands of inhabitants (and who are likely not very good contributor to the EU funds, though it's not always true), then democracy is screwed up.


Brenus, the treat is not just recapitulating different treaties and stopping futur improvements. It adds a fairly good part of social measures in it (rights for workers, and things like that), thus why many british see it as a french or german tools to screw up their political system.

[English assassin]

The UK has no actual constitution and is technically still a Monarchy. We have no written constitution, as I say, its more like a series of unwritten rules (They are written in the laws. But as I said technicaly the Queen can do as she bloody well pleases if she ever wanted to.)

Umm, no, that point was settled by the English Civil war, in favour of Parliament. The perogative powers of the monarch are limited and in any case invariably exercised by ministers.

[Ja'chyra]

I personally have no problem with one government ruling a united Europe, but at the minute I will be voting no. Why? Because it's all half-arsed as we say in the land of the chosen.

They spend all their time voting on crap, like how high is high when you're working at height, what you can and can't eat and how long you are allowed to work.

They should all go away and get it sorted and come back in 20 years or so.

As for a single currency, who really cares? Not me, so long as I don't end up paying for others, well any more than I do now, they can call the money whatever they want.

[King Henry V]

Zelda, also don't be afraid of joining the Euro - it will have great benefits to our economy, whether it be foreign direct investment or better export revenue. The economic benefits of joining the Euro are undoubted, it is those who merely want to cling onto a currency which oppose it. I happen to think tradition for traditions sake is quite sickening.

It seems we have a damned europhile in our midst. Let me ask you this, Jag, how can the Euro be pefroming so well when three of the main countries have budget problems? Italy, France and Germany have rising unemployment, and if this were a properly regulated currency, it would only be a matter of time before the euro collapses, especially if the eastern countries want to swap their mickey-mouse for the euro. And when Turkey (which isn't european) joins, with its third world salaries and first world skills, The EU will come tumbling down.

The european parliament has the say on what laws can or cannot be enacted in its countries such as Britain's 48 hour opt-out. If it forces a 48 hour working limit in Britain, its econmy will become as inefficient as the rest of the EU.

[Fragony]

Ya the euro worked wonders for our economy, for every euro we pay too much. An euro is really worth 2 guilders, yet we pay 2.20 guilders, and the gentlemen in The Hague are baffled why the consumers buy less stuff! Talk about devaluation! And they prommised us the prices wouldn't rise, yeah right, they didn't see that one comming. Thank you mr Duisenberg.

[Duke Malcolm]

The Argentinians don't like the constitution, because it means that the whole EU recognise the Falkland Isles as a British Overseas Territory, even though everyone knows that we own them anyway.

[bmolsson]

It seems we have a damned europhile in our midst. Let me ask you this, Jag, how can the Euro be pefroming so well when three of the main countries have budget problems? Italy, France and Germany have rising unemployment, and if this were a properly regulated currency, it would only be a matter of time before the euro collapses, especially if the eastern countries want to swap their mickey-mouse for the euro. And when Turkey (which isn't european) joins, with its third world salaries and first world skills, The EU will come tumbling down.


Seems to work just fine in US. Cheap labor from Mexico, Californias economy on the brink of ruins and the US dollar keeps on falling......
It took US 200 years to become a superpower, let at least EU have half of that.... ~;)

Of course there are a few bankers that would hate all the forex exchange business vanish in Europe, specially the Swiss one it seems..... ~:grouphug:

[Adrian II]

After seeing the reasons why people here would vote 'No' I think I'm going to vote 'Yes' just on the off-chance of seeing you all wet your handkerchiefs and wring your little pointy hats in misery. My God what a bunch of political midgets you are, whining about you little euro's and your little opt-outs. How happy you all are living in your flokloristic corner of the universe, dancing your traditional rain dances, believing the cr@p in your local papers, oblivious of the ways of the real world and the need to make Europe work. Anti-Europeans think just like anti-Semites and anti-Americans, they gather little titbits of 'revealing' non-information about Brussels, they quote illiterate web sites and soiled newspaper clippings, exchange mens' room stories, and never, ever check the facts for themselves - God forbids they might have to change their minds. They feed like pigs on everything that comes along: fodder and pulp, a fallen apple, a stray chicken, another animal's excrement, anything and everything that fills up their misanthropic bellies until they break down farting and belching and wallowing in their own provincialist waste.

So how's the weather in Scotland, gentlemen? :toff:

[Fragony]

After seeing the reasons why people here would vote 'No' I think I'm going to vote 'Yes' just on the off-chance of seeing you all wet your handkerchiefs and wring your little pointy hats in misery. My God what a bunch of political midgets you are, whining about you little euro's and your little opt-outs. How happy you all are living in your flokloristic corner of the universe, dancing your traditional rain dances, believing the cr@p in your local papers, oblivious of the ways of the real world and the need to make Europe work. Anti-Europeans think just like anti-Semites and anti-Americans, they gather little titbits of 'revealing' non-information about Brussels, they quote illiterate web sites and soiled newspaper clippings, exchange mens' room stories, and never, ever check the facts for themselves - God forbids they might have to change their minds. They feed like pigs on everything that comes along: fodder and pulp, a fallen apple, a stray chicken, another animal's excrement, anything and everything that fills up their misanthropic bellies until they break down farting and belching and wallowing in their own provincialist waste.

So how's the weather in Scotland, gentlemen? :toff:

Last van onderbuikgevoelens? ~D

[Adrian II]

Last van onderbuikgevoelens? ~D ~D :balloon2:

[Ja'chyra]

So how's the weather in Scotland, gentlemen?

I'll let you know, I'm going home on Thursday.


My God what a bunch of political midgets you are

No I'm not, I'm just short for my height.

[Duke Malcolm]

The weather? 7 oktas of cloud cover, mild temperature, little wind. For the past week, it was about 20 degrees, and little cloud cover...

I feel that the facts are against Europe. What with us giving more money into the vast machine than we get out. You can't deny that the machine is corrupt, wasteful of money, and overly-bureaucratic, and that the people are hardly represented.

[Ironside]

Ironside, democracy is about demos (sp?), the people. If country with the more people (who btw spend the most money for europe) have as much voice as countries with a few thousands of inhabitants (and who are likely not very good contributor to the EU funds, though it's not always true), then democracy is screwed up.


I'm not saying one vote for one country. I'm only saying that going full on population will cause great inequality ATM.

And total democracy is quite screwed up, that's why no nation have it. ~;)

And when it comes to contribution of EU funds, Sweden is one of those countries that loses most money/capita. :shrug:

[Fragony]

And when it comes to contribution of EU funds, Sweden is one of those countries that loses most money/capita. :shrug:

The EU is basicly a party on dutch and scandinavian money :furious3:

[LittleGrizzly]

Im voting yes because the people i usually disagree with want a no vote and the people i usually agree with want a yes vote, so i figure its got to be great...

Edit: out of interest who gains money from europe as everyone seems to think thier country is losing money to it ?

[Adrian II]

What with us giving more money into the vast machine than we get out.And why is that so bad? You don't get a government for free, such is the way of the world, and governments aren't investment plans with a guaranteed return.
You can't deny that the machine is corrupt, wasteful of money, and overly-bureaucratic, and that the people are hardly represented.What else is new? Of course it is, every government always has been. Your present government in London is also corrupt, wasteful and overly bureaucratic. That's why the Scots and Welsh wanted their own parliaments and governments. And now that they have 'devolved', they're complaining their own parliaments and governments are .. guess what?

[English assassin]

Hmm, but the EU is stunningly corrupt. Have their auditors EVER signed off the accounts? and what was the name of that woman who blew the gaffe on a load of missing funds, and was sacked for her pains?

Anyway, corrupt wasteful etc etc as our politicians may be, I hardly think that's an argument in favour of yet another lot of corrupt etc etc politicians battening onto the poor bloody taxpayer.

The fact that Peter Mandleson is the UK commissioner says it all for me. A man so corrupt he was thrown out of the cabinet TWICE, and he is supposed to be guiding Europe's destiny. I'd rather put my John Thomas into the hands of a maniac with a pair of scissors, as Blackadder said.

[Fragony]

Corrupt, expensive, unnecesary. They sell it as being more democratic, but that is only true if they want to do good. They can basicly decide whatever the hell pleases them, there is no law to enforce them to listen. If seven countries want the same thing they can apply to a commision, but that commision is does not have to listen to their complaints. Individual countries will pursue their own agenda like they always have, and the small countries will get the asshat because there is nobody to listen. This constitution is a turd and they know it.

[Brenus]

Can I have a laugh? I worked in UK and I am damned if I worked 48 hours, and all my English colleagues just dream to work less than the 40 hours (which is more than in all the other companies) we are working… If the working hours were better paid, they all jump on the occasion. If you go on web sites for jobs, most of them are 38 hours, even 36 hours…

I never saw so much people getting “sickies” than in UK, so we are far from efficiency…
If you are single in England, you can’t have a decent life. My colleague, aged 30, can’t afford to pay a rent and still live with his parents… They all mourn about mortgages, taxes and high prices…
Do you really believe that the pound isn’t linked with the Euro? The only thing England kept is the rate of interest is decided by the Bank of England, which a powerful tool to try to control the absolute madness in the rise of the house price…
I read this morning in a newspaper that it will be a recession when the government will fire all the extra people working in different offices… Plus the huge problem of the individual debts, do you remember the titles in the Newspapers?

About efficiency, you know what happen with Rover, didn’t you? The manager will go with 8 300 000 pounds and some workers won’t have their pension…

About corruption, unnecessary expenditures, I think it was the centre of the campaign for the elections, and ALL the candidates promised to put and end to that. Do you remember: NHS no working, Emigration, not working, laws and order, not working, schools, not working, defence, not working, pension, etc. And you know I am not lying, it was in all the programmes…

If I would vote NO to the constitution it is BECAUSE, like Fragony, I think it is a trap, and don’t buy it.

I am a damned Europhile because only Europe saved our generation of European civil wars, but certainly don’t want THIS Europe. And I like to travel without be stopped at each border, I like to have one currency and not to be robbed by the bank with the exchange rate. I like to be able to work in Holland, in England and others countries without the Residence Permit or Working Permit, or other documents distributed by some functionaries with total power on my life. And I don’t want to give the power to the free market to exploit the Polish or the Slovenes, or other Hungarians because they are poor. I want justice and dignity for all… So, let’s vote NO to this constitution, and let’s built another one.

[Meneldil]

Errr, well, Germany and France are respectively the first and the second contributor to EU funds. Eu is not likely built of Dutch and Scandinavian money.

LittleGrizly, Spain, France (mainly for its agricultural silly policy), Portugal and Greece are the country who get the more money from EU. I think things will change with the 10 new members. We'll see.

I'm not really about pointing to who does what, and to blame people for things like that, but UK receive much more money than it does give away.

IronSide, we agree on the fact that population should be the only factor, but I fear we do not agree on what the other factors should be. The money given to EU (on a per country basis), and overall, the EU 'integration' should be a factor the # of voices granted to each country.

[Fragony]

Errr, well, Germany and France are respectively the first and the second contributor to EU funds. Eu is not likely built of Dutch and Scandinavian money.


Germany and france are the first and secondary contributers for the devaluation of the euro, and of course they pay more they are bigger. When it comes down to costs a person we pay A LOT more. The EU is France and Germany, the rest pays.