Kansas begets another version of science-tology

[Papewaio]

Kansas looks at redefining science (http://www.cnn.com/2005/EDUCATION/05/15/kansas.evolution.ap/index.html)


Advocates of "intelligent design" are pushing the board to reject a definition limiting science to natural explanations for what's observed in the world.

Instead, they want to define it as "a systematic method of continuing investigation," without specifying what kind of answer is being sought. The definition would appear in the introduction to the state's science standards.

Ohhh how sweet look at the purdy science pwogwam.

With science like this I'm sure Kansas will be world leaders in SFA.

Gah Begets not begts...

[PanzerJaeger]

Excuse me but why do you care?

We all know how you feel about the United States -(i mean the fascist country once known as the United States)- but what in the world does this have to do with you.

Do you live in Kansas? Do you live in the United States? I dont think so.

So why do you care if the people of Kansas want to teach science in a different way?

Does it make you feel superior to scoff at these people because they arent as progressive as you?

I always find it amazing the interest people not from this country take in the random little nuances of our domestic lives. Isnt anything going on in Australia?

Ive found most people post little things like this to make themselves feel better because they dont think America should be in the position it is in. Watch out for the green eyed monster. ~;)

[Papewaio]

Well part of our trade deals with USA meant an increased amount of USA media is broadcast in Australia.

Your own pollies thought that Australian's should get more American media.

What they forgot is that we will then make comments about the information we get.

So blame it on your own government.

----

Earlier American exports on the matter such as the Monkey Trials are some of my earliest movie memories.

----

As to your point

Watch out for the green eyed monster.

I don't think it will help the living standards of the US to turn its back on science. In fact I am advocating more science to maintain the USA's living standards.

I will have to make do with my terrible living standards in Sydney...

[Big_John]

everyone should care if ignorant kansans are on the rise...

[Papewaio]

Excuse me but why do you care?


Oh and I care because I have a science degree...

[PanzerJaeger]

Oh and I care because I have a science degree...

Then why dont you post about the dismal state of science in much of Africa? Or why dont you post something interesting from the Australian scientific community?

There are plenty of places in the world with more interesting takes on science than Kansas.

But of course if one was seeking to cast aspersions on the US or to show how superior one was to Americans, this would be the perfect article. ~;)

[Byzantine Prince]

Pape is really arrogant about science which I personally find hillarious. :laugh:

You know why? Because he is the only one putting all that importance to it.

[Papewaio]

Pape is really arrogant about science which I personally find hillarious. :laugh:

You know why? Because he is the only one putting all that importance to it.

Flown in an airplane?
Used the internet?
Used a cell phone/mobile?
Used any pharmaceuticals?
Use electricity?
Used oil?

People go on about how 'advanced' their civilization in. They think that their moral system is better, that they are better. When in fact it is usually not (unfortunately) the moral system that is stronger just the levers it has to use.

[bmolsson]

Excuse me but why do you care?


Due to the same reason you care so much about what is going on in Iraq. you know the place in the middle of the desert where everyone can't speak English, use a compass for religion and have shit load of oil in the dirt...... ~D

[English assassin]

Pape is really arrogant about science which I personally find hillarious.

You know why? Because he is the only one putting all that importance to it.

No he's not. I am a massive science chauvanist myself. Pape puts the case for anyone who doesn't like living in mud huts to think science is important, for me, equally important, is that it is the only effective way we have of understanding the world as it actually is.

Turning PJ's argument around, I don't see why he is so quick to defend the Kansas approach. There is a precedent for a world that was highly technically advanced, that turned its back on science because it was irreligious, and that fell into decline as a result. Its the Islamic world and America is bombing it.

So if America doesn't want to be the 22 century Iraq I'd think it was in the interests of Amercians to tell Kansas she can teach what she damn well pleased in religious studies, but keep Jesus the hell out of biology.

And defining science as


"a systematic method of continuing investigation,"

is plain dumb. That would cover history, literature, theology, in short, more or less any serious academic study.

[Ja'chyra]

Don't be so defensive Panzer, I think Pape would have commented on this no matter where it originated.

Can't we all just get along, let's face it it takes too much effort to stay pissed at people.

[Adrian II]

No he's not. I am a massive science chauvanist myself. Pape puts the case for anyone who doesn't like living in mud huts to think science is important, for me, equally important, is that it is the only effective way we have of understanding the world as it actually is.Thirded. And I wouldn't mind the mud huts so much, as long as they aren't built according to fengshui. That would really piss me off.

[Papewaio]

After living in Taiwan, any fengshui would beat rebar poking out of concrete piled high into the sky.

[Kanamori]

I'm not sure it is going to limit actual scientific knowledge, though. I mean, it is really ridiculous and they would be pretty stupid to change it, but it wouldn't bring about some cataclysmic change towards mud huts...

[Adrian II]

After living in Taiwan, any fengshui would beat rebar poking out of concrete piled high into the sky.No hot meal for you today, Papewaio. Can't wake up the dragon underneath the kitchen on Mondays, can we?

[Paul Peru]

Is Kansas still in black and white?

[Papewaio]

No hot meal for you today, Papewaio. Can't wake up the dragon underneath the kitchen on Mondays, can we?

Actually I prefer my wheatbix cool...

[Steppe Merc]

So if America doesn't want to be the 22 century Iraq I'd think it was in the interests of Amercians to tell Kansas she can teach what she damn well pleased in religious studies, but keep Jesus the hell out of biology.
:bow:
Wise words. And Panzer, I think anyone can comment on what's going on in other places. You and I do it all the time, don't we?

[Ronin]

Is Kansas still in black and white?

some of the brains of the people that live there still are aparently...

[Proletariat]

Pardon me for hijacking the banter and discussing Intelligent Design, but it really does need to be ridiculed and insulted and laughed at.

The idea that 'life' is so complicated it must have been designed by a greater being is so stupid it's mind boggling.

I mean, tell that to Johnny, age 13 in a Cleveland hospitol with a case of rapidly mutating influenza that can't be cured. God must've given it to him! It's complicated!

[Ja'chyra]

Pardon me for hijacking the banter and discussing Intelligent Design, but it really does need to be ridiculed and insulted and laughed at.

The idea that 'life' is so complicated it must have been designed by a greater being is so stupid it's mind boggling.

I mean, tell that to Johnny, age 13 in a Cleveland hospitol with a case of rapidly mutating influenza that can't be cured. God must've given it to him! It's complicated!

Faith sister, faith. :lipsrsealed: :end:

[Tachikaze]

Then why dont you post about the dismal state of science in much of Africa?
One reason that the US is singled out is because the people here have arrogantly stated that they are the most advanced nation on Earth and that the Muslims in the Middle East are "backward".

States like Kansas are trying to take us the same way they say the "fundamentalist Islamic" countries are going, following ancient religious scripture rather than modern human reason that is based on thousands of years of discovery and methodical learning since the scriptures were written.

[Don Corleone]

Does Intelligent Design really mandate a belief in a higher power? I thought it simply allowed for the possiblity, but I really don't know all that much about it.

What bothers me about this whole Kansas business is the phrase they're trying to reject. "A definition limiting science to natural explanations for what's happening in the world". Nowhere in that does it claim that science and science alone can explain all facets of existence. It merely says that the physical universe can be explained using physical constructs. SHOCKER! As a Christian and an engineer, I find the fundamentalist rejection of science foolish, limiting, and even a little insulting. If anything, in understanding DNA replication (from when I was pre-med, pre electrical engineering), energy bandgaps in crystalline structures or electromagnetic wave propagation, 3 very physical, observable & definable phenomena, I've come to appreciate just how amazing God truly is. But I've yet to come across any scientific phenomenon that would require a belief or the lack thereof. Does putting mustard on your sandwich require you to tie your shoes?

[BDC]

Whilst it's none of my business, I'd prefer it if America didn't shoot itself in the foot and scare all its scientists off by insisting a god made everything that's complex/small/controversial, as I quite enjoy technological progress, and it would be nice if it were to continue.

[English assassin]

Does Intelligent Design really mandate a belief in a higher power?

IIRC (and I am afraid in my world view Intelligent design is filed with astrology, Von Daniken and other topics which are so patently pathetic not to say deliberately mendacious that it is not worth the mental effort findng out in any detail what they stand for) Intelligent Design seeks to argue that living things are so complicated they cannot have come about through "natural" processes, ie that they were designed. hence the usual nonsense about the eye and how complicated it is and what use is half an eye etc etc.

As the design is intelligent it presumably requires you to believe that a higher power did the designing. Obviously that higher power itself cannot have come about through natural processes so you have to believe in some sort of god. I guess.

Though of course proof denies faith and without faith god is nothing as I seem to recall it says in the bible, or it does in the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy anyway. So as the inteligent designers seem to have a proof for the existence of god..ah, but I have fallen into the trap of taking it even 10% seriously.


But I've yet to come across any scientific phenomenon that would require a belief or the lack thereof.

You won't either. You can understand energy bandgaps in crystalline structures in the most exquisite detail and no part of that understanding will require you to reject a belief in god, if you don't want to. The intellectual aggression is all the other way, hmm, I wonder why...

[PanzerJaeger]

Due to the same reason you care so much about what is going on in Iraq. you know the place in the middle of the desert where everyone can't speak English, use a compass for religion and have shit load of oil in the dirt......

I comment on Iraq because we have troops there. If we did not, i wouldnt find an obscure article about some province in Iraq and post it to demean and make fun of the Iraqis take on science.

Im still wondering why Papewaio would post this and his insulting comments. There are plenty of places in the world that teach a much less progressive form of science than Kansas, and many places in the US that teach it differently.

Yet ive never seen him posting any demeaning things besides those that have to do with the US. That compounded with the fact that he thinks America is a fascist country leads me to believe this is nothing more than a hit peice- A "Haha, your county is stupid" thread.


One reason that the US is singled out is because the people here have arrogantly stated that they are the most advanced nation on Earth and that the Muslims in the Middle East are "backward".

Who said that? America no more boasts about its science than Europe or any other Western industrial nations. Thats what is commonly refered to as a strawman, i believe. Youre setting up position that America hasnt taken.


Turning PJ's argument around, I don't see why he is so quick to defend the Kansas approach. There is a precedent for a world that was highly technically advanced, that turned its back on science because it was irreligious, and that fell into decline as a result. Its the Islamic world and America is bombing it.

Can you point out which actual science will not be taught in Kansas anymore? I believe, from the limited text posted that they will still be taught the laws of nature and so forth. They will still be doing the labs and taking the same tests as the rest of the country. Please correct me if im wrong.

[bmolsson]

"Haha, your county is stupid"


I don't think your country is stupid. And I like Big Mac..... ~:grouphug:

[Papewaio]

I comment on Iraq because we have troops there. If we did not, i wouldnt find an obscure article about some province in Iraq and post it to demean and make fun of the Iraqis take on science.

Im still wondering why Papewaio would post this and his insulting comments. There are plenty of places in the world that teach a much less progressive form of science than Kansas, and many places in the US that teach it differently.

Yet ive never seen him posting any demeaning things besides those that have to do with the US. That compounded with the fact that he thinks America is a fascist country leads me to believe this is nothing more than a hit peice- A "Haha, your county is stupid" thread.



I read the science & space site at CNN about once a week (NASA rocks). The Kansas article was frontline news at one point and it sparked my interest as I have studied nature since I was old enough to read.

I have been interested in this type of trial since watching Inherit the Wind even as a kid I found it fascinating that science would be defined by lawyers. It felt like letting footballs rules be decided by chess players.

I have in the past posted articles from other countries and have mentioned Australia's less then sterling issues (Aboroginals still on the wildlife census till 1967).

And as far as posting things 'demeaning' to other countries please ask the French. Ask Saturnus if you must about my reference to French Terrorism. Or my posts against China. Or referring to Swedens Eugenic programs. The UKs colonial past (I have brought up the Boer war and the prototype to concentration camps.

Im still wondering why Papewaio would post this and his insulting comments.

It is accurate news from a USA agency. And which insulting comments?

[PanzerJaeger]

It is accurate news from a USA agency. And which insulting comments?

Ohhh how sweet look at the purdy science pwogwam.


With science like this I'm sure Kansas will be world leaders in SFA.

Condescending and derogatory.

[Papewaio]

Ohhh how sweet look at the purdy science pwogwam.


With science like this I'm sure Kansas will be world leaders in SFA.

Condescending and derogatory.

Sorry if I offended you, I thought it would sound funny with a Slyvestor the cat voice over.

Kansas is making a choice and in so doing the consequences are to weaken its scientific ability. So how is going backwards in the age of technology a good choice? It is one thing to legislate on how technology should be used, it is an entirely different thing to legislate the definitions of science to warp it to a particular belief structure. That to me is no different to the times when the church decided that 'No Gal, the sun is going around the earth.'

It would also seem to be mixing Church and State by mixing a religious belief into school teachings. That is upto the USA to decide. And not a point I am particular concerned by as I have no problem with religion being taught at school as long as it is taught as such.

[Kanamori]

Students in Wisconsin test second in the world on science. :bow:

[Papewaio]

Cool.

More importantly why? Is it replicatable to other schools?

Who came first?

[Kanamori]

"More importantly why? Is it replicatable to other schools? "

Truthfully, I am not entirely certain. The vast majority of teachers, and science teachers specifically, have majors or minors in the area they study. E.g., my ap chem teacher has a masters, and my math teacher(s) have masters and doctorates (today we got to draw fractals on the sidewalks to greet people to our school! ~D ). Also, I believe Wisconsin spends significantly more on education than do most other states. It generally does a good job of keeping teachers in the business, as there are good benefits. I would imagine that being a more suburban/rural area could affect education as well.

Singapore came first