Let's see how this plays out...

[Goofball]

Luis Posada, a terrorist who has admittedly made bombing attacks on civilian locations, is applying for political asylum in the U.S. Should be a no-brainer, right? I mean come on, with the U.S. being the self-proclaimed leader in the Global War on Terror, they should immediately deny his claim and ship him back to either of the two countries wanting his extradition.

The problem?

The terrorist attacks he committed were against the Cuban Castro regime.

So, is the Global War on Terror really a war against all terrorists, or only against those terrorists that don't serve U.S. interests?

Your move Mr. Bush.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7678398/

[Crazed Rabbit]

A guy who has admitted bombing civilian targets?

Well then, it would appear very simple: kick the guy out.

The ends (no Castro) do not justify the means (civilian killing).

Crazed Rabbit

[monkian]

A guy who has admitted bombing civilian targets?

Well then, it would appear very simple: kick the guy out.

The ends (no Castro) do not justify the means (civilian killing).

Crazed Rabbit

The ends (no Saddam) do not justify the means (civillian killing) ....

[Don Corleone]

Ah yes, right on topic Monkian. Even when Americans on the Right agree with your point, you gotta give us the finger. Typical Leftist, no interest in common understanding, just bashing everyone you disagree with.

[Tribesman]

A guy who has admitted bombing civilian targets?
Not any more , despite his earlier admissions he now says "lets leave it to history"
The ends (no Castro) do not justify the means (civilian killing).
But he believes in armed struggle and revolution to achieve his aims ~;)
And for his finest quote ...
"I would never have participated in any conspiracy with 'Monkey' Morales , I'd have to be crazy . My God!!!"
So despite recently declassified Federal government papers linking this former CIA operative with Morales and the Aircraft bombing he denies it . Yeah he would have to be crazy to do something like that , but sane enough to blow up tourist resorts :dizzy2:
Looks like theres one illegal that the Minutemen project failed to stop at the border . ~;)
I don't see much chance of him being handed over to Cuba or Venezuela , maybe they should hand him over the Italians , lets see how his reasoning "The tourist was just in the wrong place at the wrong time" stands up in court .

[monkian]

Ah yes, right on topic Monkian. Even when Americans on the Right agree with your point, you gotta give us the finger. Typical Leftist, no interest in common understanding, just bashing everyone you disagree with.

*yawn*

Prove I'm a 'leftist' (whatever that is) and where did I previously state my point ?

PS You just used your post to tar and bash all 'leftists' with the same brush. Congrats ~:cheers:

[Don Corleone]

Let's see, since you're apparently having troubles following what at the time was a 3 post thread, please allow me to summarize:

1) Goofball made the point the US should extradite a man who's admitted to bombing civilian targets. He suggested that even though this was done in Cuba, to protest Castro, the US not doing so would reek of hypocricy.

2) Crazed Rabbit, one of the more Right posters agreed completely.

3) You chime in with a dig at the Iraq War effort, which, until you piped up, had nothing to do with the discussion.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

This case is diff from the Saddam case Monk.

[monkian]

Let's see, since you're apparently having troubles following what at the time was a 3 post thread, please allow me to summarize:

1) Goofball made the point the US should extradite a man who's admitted to bombing civilian targets. He suggested that even though this was done in Cuba, to protest Castro, the US not doing so would reek of hypocricy.

2) Crazed Rabbit, one of the more Right posters agreed completely.

3) You chime in with a dig at the Iraq War effort, which, until you piped up, had nothing to do with the discussion.

1) Agreed- yes, yes he did

2) Yup- he seemed to agree- didnt note him stating his politcal following though

3) Ah yes, but you'll notice - I didn't say that Crazed Rabbit was wrong, bash his political leaning or state mine.

You however

*brought 'right' and 'left' into this

*Bashed all 'leftists'

~:handball:

[BDC]

Hah, let's see how hypocritical this can make the Bush administration look.

[Don Corleone]

Okay Monk, fair enough. Perhaps I jumped the gun on that one, and you were beating a dead horse, possibly trolling, but not necessarily attacking CR. You have my apologies on that. But you did go way off topic.

[Byzantine Prince]

Ah yes, it seems an even bigger concern for America is communism. I guess global terrorism isn't so bad if it's targeting communist civilians. :laugh:

This goes ditto for the NAzis. America didn't wanna declare war on the Nazis. In fact they started attacking jews by saying it's their fault. Why? Because the Nazis were destroying the Soviets. Talk about f'ed priorities.

[Don Corleone]

Uhm, BP, did you take your meds today? Thus far, nobody has advocated defending Mr. Posada or granting him sanctuary.

He should be sent back to Cuba. Anybody who targets civilians is an enemy of humanity and should be dealt with according to the local laws.

[Adrian II]

Ah yes, it seems an even bigger concern for America is communism. I guess global terrorism isn't so bad if it's targeting communist civilians. :laugh:

This goes ditto for the NAzis. America didn't wanna declare war on the Nazis. In fact they started attacking jews by saying it's their fault. Why? Because the Nazis were destroying the Soviets. Talk about f'ed priorities.BP, are you taking your pills? You better make sure, or else the mods are going to make you swallow one you won't enjoy. Shape up, man.

[Adrian II]

Uhm, BP, did you take your meds today?Hahahahaha, did you notice what I just posted in the same minute as you, Don? I'm gonna marry you one of these days, honey.
~:cheers:

[Don Corleone]

Okay, but given that homosexual marriage isn't currently legal in North Carolina, which of us is going to Sweden? :kiss2:

[Adrian II]

Okay, but given that homosexual marriage isn't currently legal in North Carolina, which of us is going to Sweden? :kiss2:Whoever gets there first, cupcakes. But we better get on our way before we're kicked out of this thread for OT posting.
:bow:

[Don Corleone]

Uhm, yeah, well, I hate to say it, but Goofy's post ain't going very far. I think he was trying to start a debate, hoping somebody would stick up for this Posada guy, and it's a valid question, but I don't think you're going to find many people defending him. And I see a lot of Republicans getting pretty peeved if we did offer this joker immunity. I heard all about him on NPR (and funny, this one of the rare times National Review is in lockstep with them) and the guy blew up a passenger jet going from Cuba to Venezuela. From what I can tell, the CIA disavowed him in 1976 shortly after that, apparently he was pulling at the leash too hard, as they must not have wanted that on their conscience. He's currently on the lam, with the US state department claiming they can't honor Venezuela's extradition request. We haven't granted him any immunities, but Panama has. All in all, a dirtbag, and it's very, very rare that William F. Buckley and Daniel Shore agree on anything. If one said the sky was blue, the other would call it propaganda.

[Hurin_Rules]

Something just happened with Posada-- I caught the end of a story on CNN that they called 'breaking news', but I was too late to see what happened. ANyone?

[Don Corleone]

Castro, and about 200,000 Cubans marched through the streets of Havana and started a protest outside the US consulate (which I didn't think we had).

[Redleg]

Something just happened with Posada-- I caught the end of a story on CNN that they called 'breaking news', but I was too late to see what happened. ANyone?

Could it be along the lines that the United States decided to detain him?

http://www.comcast.net/news/international/index.jsp?cat=INTERNATIONAL&fn=/2005/05/17/134744.html

[Lazul]

Okay, but given that homosexual marriage isn't currently legal in North Carolina, which of us is going to Sweden? :kiss2:

*imagen having Don and AdrianII next door*

*starts to shake*

ooohh... oh GOD! NOOooooo!!!!

ok sorry, Ill stop making lame posts.

Back to Topic: Well, I must say it will be intresting to see what happens, my guess is that it wont get any room in the media and he will be shipped back to Cuba and then he's f'ed. :bow:

[Goofball]

Uhm, yeah, well, I hate to say it, but Goofy's post ain't going very far. I think he was trying to start a debate, hoping somebody would stick up for this Posada guy, and it's a valid question, but I don't think you're going to find many people defending him.

Actually, I was pretty sure that the conservative patrons would either advocate punishing the guy, or just stay out of the thread. I just wanted to get the topic started so we could have the discussion before the U.S. gov't took any action, then see how the discussion turns after the decision is made (hopefully soon), one way or the other.

My prediction:

They don't grant asylum, but neither do they extradite him to Venezuela or Cuba. Instead, they will allow him to leave the U.S. and go to whatever country he can sweet-talk into letting him in. They are going to try to make this somebody else's problem.

Any other predictions?

[Don Corleone]

I don't know what you're talking about, big guy. I'm seriously impressed! You started a thread about the hypocricy of allowing Pasada to float around on the lam, and whammo, the feds picked him up! Amazing! The State Dept. must be in here taking their cues from ya, cous.

Proletariat, come clean, are you really Condi in disguise? An intelligent woman AND a Republican? How many of THOSE are out there floating around.

[Goofball]

I don't know what you're talking about, big guy. I'm seriously impressed! You started a thread about the hypocricy of allowing Pasada to float around on the lam, and whammo, the feds picked him up! Amazing! The State Dept. must be in here taking their cues from ya, cous.

What can I say? I know a guy, I made a call. Fuhgedda bowdit...

[Hurin_Rules]

Could it be along the lines that the United States decided to detain him?

http://www.comcast.net/news/international/index.jsp?cat=INTERNATIONAL&fn=/2005/05/17/134744.html

Yep, thanks Redleg. Looks like the picked him up; more here:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7886697/

[Proletariat]

Proletariat, come clean, are you really Condi in disguise? An intelligent woman AND a Republican? How many of THOSE are out there floating around.

Too kind, and I'm surprised I had you so fooled.

I'm actually a Hobbesian Authoritarian Radical disguised as a right leaning war gamer in order to find chinks in the enemy's armor.

[Crazed Rabbit]

The ends (no Saddam) do not justify the means (civillian killing) ....

Since when has the US killed civilians in order to overthrow Saddam? That's complete BS. The US has never tried to overthrow Saddam by killing civilians. Bext time, if you don't have anythig constructive to actually add to the thread, then don't try and drag it off topic.


2) Yup- he seemed to agree- didnt note him stating his politcal following though

3) Ah yes, but you'll notice - I didn't say that Crazed Rabbit was wrong, bash his political leaning or state mine.

If you know anything of my previous posts, you'd know that I was conservative. But, hey, maybe you didn't. :rolleyes2: But don't try to act as if your Saddam reference was but an innocent remark. You were just trying to start trouble.

To the topic-
It appears the US has detained him. I think it is slightly more likely they will extradite him for trial. They will almost definately not allow him to stay here. They may let him seek asylum elsewhere-but I hope they don't.


I'm actually a Hobbesian Authoritarian Radical disguised as a right leaning war gamer in order to find chinks in the enemy's armor.

Any chinks in the armor of people who pretend to fight 600 years ago might be a bit outdated.

Crazed Rabbit

[Proletariat]

Got you. I'm actually a Lesbian Otter who is here to seek out any chink's in the enemy's armor.

[Don Corleone]

Okay, the lesbian part grabbed my attention. Got any home movies? ~D Just kidding. Seriously though, what is a "Lesbian Otter". And there's no way you're in deep cover, cause you've got a shoddy cover. You'd never go around claiming to be an atheist if you just wanted to get the dirt on the God, guns and gays party.

[Proletariat]

http://www.ottersandbutterflies.co.uk/23.jpg


Sure, they look cute and adorable to the untrained eye, but they're actually about to put on their Doc Martins, PETA shirts, and chow down on some Boca-Burgers.

[Don Corleone]

I wear Docs & eat Boca Burgers. Does that make me 2/3 of a lesbian?

[Proletariat]

I wear Docs & eat Boca Burgers. Does that make me 2/3 of a lesbian?

Well, there's one more requirement and from what I learned on the Sopranos somone with your user name probably won't make the cut.

[Don Corleone]

What? Lesbians chase skirts, I chase skirts. Lesbians were flannel, I wear flannel. Lesbians like women's basketball, I had season tickets to UCONN women all 4 years and helped 'em write their papers when I was in the computer lab. In all ways but 1, I AM a lesbian.

[Redleg]

What? Lesbians chase skirts, I chase skirts. Lesbians were flannel, I wear flannel. Lesbians like women's basketball, I had season tickets to UCONN women all 4 years and helped 'em write their papers when I was in the computer lab. In all ways but 1, I AM a lesbian.


Well I like to kiss women - does that make me a lesbian. ~;)

[Big_John]

I had season tickets to UCONN women all 4 yearsgodfather, i have lost any and all respect for you. never tell anybody outside the family what you're thinking again.

[Don Corleone]

Dude, UCONN women dominate. They're not just the best, they're the only choice. For the longest time, they were unstoppable. This year they took a breath, next year, it's right back to breaking hearts and trouncing dreams. I'm proud to admit I caught every home, and many road and most tournament games in their 34-0 season.

[Don Corleone]

Well I like to kiss women - does that make me a lesbian. ~;)
You say that in the plural. Does wifey know about these others? Eh, eh? I think 100 dollars entering my pocket would go a long way towards assuring my silence.

[Redleg]

You say that in the plural. Does wifey know about these others? Eh, eh? I think 100 dollars entering my pocket would go a long way towards assuring my silence.

My wife sometimes encourages me to kiss other women - normally when she is extremely mad at me. ~D

[Don Corleone]

Oooooh.... you're swingers.... I see. ~D Just kidding. She encourages you to kiss other women though, eh? Any chance I could set up a conference call between your wife and mine?

[Redleg]

Oooooh.... you're swingers.... I see. ~D Just kidding. She encourages you to kiss other women though, eh? Any chance I could set up a conference call between your wife and mine?

Well the encouragement comes along these lines "Go Kiss off" or "Why don't you go Kiss one of your girlfriends" :duel:

[Don Corleone]

Yeah, well mine is the daugher of a cop, has a concealed carry permit, is a better shot than I, and explained in detail to me her definition of "until death do us part" as it relates to the adultery question. While I'm a transplant, my wife is most certainly, and I do love, GRITS (Girls Raised in The South).

[Crazed Rabbit]

Not the lesbian otters! That's the only creature we can't defend against! We're doomed!


PETA shirts

PETA, eh? Maybe they're not so bad after all. I, too, support people for the eating of tasty animals.

Crazed Rabbit

[bmolsson]

I was just thinking, it seems like Lesbians rarely are terrorists. In fact all homosexuals are less violent than heterosexuals. Wouldn't this indicate that they are a more safe group to have around in the society ?? The threat of terror will be 0 if everyone was gay ?? Statistically I mean.......

[Gawain of Orkeny]

I was just thinking, it seems like Lesbians rarely are terrorists.

Well Im going to ignor PC thinking here and state that most likely this is because Muslims are far less tolerant of homosexuality than we are.


The threat of terror will be 0 if everyone was gay

There wouldnt be anyone to terrorize we would all be gone.

[Don Corleone]

Bmolsson,
You've clearly never been near an "Act Up" rally in the Village.

[Proletariat]

In all ways but 1, I AM a lesbian.

I'd explain the last bit, but I don't wanna sully the chaste virtues of the backroom.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Originally Posted by Don Corleone
In all ways but 1, I AM a lesbian.

I know when it was first explained to me I thought I was a lesbian as I had all the traits also but one. Does that mean that a lesbian trapped in a mans body?

[Don Corleone]

Well, as I'm married, I do believe I have a clue as to what that last bit might be. But honestly, are there any virtues to be sullied around here?

[PanzerJaeger]

IF this guy was a CIA operative, he deserves to stay in this country.

The fight against Castro has always been dirty and just because he isnt as big of a threat as he used to be is no reason to burn our friends in that fight.

As to Goofs first point..


So, is the Global War on Terror really a war against all terrorists, or only against those terrorists that don't serve U.S. interests?

Your move Mr. Bush.

I have been operating under the assumption that it has always been against Anti-American terrorists. If we go about trying to take on every little group that has something against its government then we'll just end up making more enemies than we started with.

No Goof, i think this war is against a very specific group of terrorists - those who attacked on 9/11 and those who sympathize with that effort.

Terrorists will always be around and are just a tool in the game of geopolitics. Take, for example the Kurds in Iraq or those nuts in Afghanistan.

[bmolsson]

Well Im going to ignor PC thinking here and state that most likely this is because Muslims are far less tolerant of homosexuality than we are.


You are most probably right. Seriously..... :book:

On the light side, not being a terrorist is so... gay..... ~D

[monkian]

Christ, and I was accused of being off-topic ~D

[LittleGrizzly]

moving away from the delightful topic of lesbians (which im usually more than happy to discuss) BBC news told me they arrested the guy, good move.

[Productivity]

The ends (no Saddam) do not justify the means (civillian killing) ....

You have classed two completeley seperate areas of civilian killing as one. Intentional killing of civilians is one thing, killing of civilians as an accident/unavoidable cost is another (and for that matter, killing through negligence is a third but that is irrelevant to this issue).

In a legal situation I assume it would be the difference between wilful murder, murder and manslaughter.

Therefore, the analogy does not apply, and so this part of the thread should be ignored.

EDIT: WTH happened to this thread?

Panzer, at least I'm not the only one who posted a reply and then read the thread.

[Paul Peru]

Got you. I'm actually a Lesbian Otter who is here to seek out any chink's in the enemy's armor.
Do you have a significant otter?

[Paul Peru]

I'll say: don't hand him over if he faces Death. Hand him over if he faces Life.
Norway is currently harbouring Mullah Krekar, a big-shot fundamentalist terrorist guy from Iraq, waiting for it to be reasonably safe to send him back to serve in an Iraqi prison.

[LittleGrizzly]

Do you have a significant otter?

lol that was lame...

[Paul Peru]

Do you have a significant otter?

lol that was lame...
:embarassed:
Spare armadillo?

[LittleGrizzly]

I'll say: don't hand him over if he faces Death. Hand him over if he faces Life.

well seen as USA still has the death penalty i don't think they'll care to much whether he has a potential death sentence or not.

If he was working for the USA i can feel some sympathy for him, but with the recent anti-terrorist rhethoric that would have been to much of an a humiliation to keep him free.

[Goofball]

IF this guy was a CIA operative, he deserves to stay in this country.

The fight against Castro has always been dirty and just because he isnt as big of a threat as he used to be is no reason to burn our friends in that fight.

As to Goofs first point..
So, is the Global War on Terror really a war against all terrorists, or only against those terrorists that don't serve U.S. interests?

Your move Mr. Bush.I have been operating under the assumption that it has always been against Anti-American terrorists. If we go about trying to take on every little group that has something against its government then we'll just end up making more enemies than we started with.

No Goof, i think this war is against a very specific group of terrorists - those who attacked on 9/11 and those who sympathize with that effort.

Terrorists will always be around and are just a tool in the game of geopolitics. Take, for example the Kurds in Iraq or those nuts in Afghanistan.

Thanks for bringing the thread back on topic, and thanks for an honest answer, PJ. I have to admit, I do envy you your single-minded pragmatism when it comes to what you perceive to be in the interests of your country's safety. It must make the world a far less complicated place from your point of view.

(No, that comment was not meant as a cheap shot, please take it at face value)

But don't you think that if the U.S. decides to go easy on this guy and not hand him over, that they lose any right or moral high-ground when demanding that other countries hand over known terrorists that they are sheltering?

[PanzerJaeger]

I have to admit, I do envy you your single-minded pragmatism when it comes to what you perceive to be in the interests of your country's safety. It must make the world a far less complicated place from your point of view.

I think thats a pretty accurate assessment as to where I stand. My US-centric mindset isnt based on selfishness as much as it is based on my understanding of how the worlds governments work behind the scenes.


But don't you think that if the U.S. decides to go easy on this guy and not hand him over, that they lose any right or moral high-ground when demanding that other countries hand over known terrorists that they are sheltering?

I subscribe to a "greater good" mentality on issues like this.

For a moment im going to turn off the spin machine..

The US has used terrorism just as much as any major power in the world. As I said, its a tool in global politics. The difference, in my opinion, is that the US has used terrorism for the greater good. (Undermining communism and authoritarian governments)

I see what happened on 9/11 not as Terrorism attacking Establishment, but as AQ attacking the United States, they simply chose terror as their method of attack. In other words, I see America at war with a group of people, not a method of attack.

So in my mind there is no conflict of morality or intent in asking for anti-american terrorists to be handed over, and not handing over one of our own. If the people we ask are our friends then we should expect that they help us and they should expect the same. Castro has never been our friend.

This leads me to the most important part of the story, in my mind.

This guy directly worked for the US against Castro and now we, as it appears, will be turning him over to Castro - or at least punishing him for fighting against Castro.

Again the problem has nothing to do with morality or whats right and whats wrong. What does this tell Iraqis who may be thinking about helping us out in that country? What does it tell Afghanis?

In my mind our loyalty toward those who have shown loyalty to us is much more important in securing our own safety and standing in the world than our moral positions.

I believe America has always stood for the greater good, but the game of geopolitics is dirty and its irrational to pretend America hasnt been a player in that game. And from my experience loyalty (ie not turning over a former agent to the government he worked against) is much more important that percieved morality as everyone percieves it differently. ~;)