illegal immigrants and crime

[ShadesWolf]

Link to article (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4558857.stm)


Four people who kidnapped an 11-year-old boy and held him to ransom for £40,000 have been jailed for between three-and-a-half and 12 years.
The boy was taken from a street in Southall, west London, last March.

Gurnham Dhanoa, 22, Ravideep Babu, 23, Amarjit Dhariwar, 30, and Ayisha Choudhry, 20, were sentenced at Middlesex Guildhall Crown Court.

The four, all from Southall, were convicted of conspiracy to kidnap, false imprisonment and blackmail.

The boy had been walking home from school when one of the gang - an illegal immigrant hoping to buy a Ferrari with the ransom money - bundled him into the back of a car.



Erm why is the 'illegal immigrants' in a Uk prison, being paid for by UK tax payers ?

[Kaiser of Arabia]

It's the same like it over here. The United Sovie...er...States pay billions of dollars to jail a bunch of illegal immigrant CRIMINALS because the f***ing INS feels that it's not worth the effort to partol our boarders. Our boarder policy is a joke! It's no wonder why people down south are lauging at us and all our laws. Thousands of these people pour across our boarders like locusts each year, NOT TO EMBRACE OUR DEAR NATION BUT TO EXPLOIT IT'S VAST RESOURCES! Want some facts? Here are some facts:
8 of the 9/11 hijackers were illegal immigrants
the two washington DC snipers were illegal immigrants
30% of all criminals imprisioned in America are here illegally
90% of all homicides in Los Angeles are illegal immigrant related.
It's a serious issue that all the liberal stalinist lenninistic pigs in government ignore.

[Adrian II]

(..) INS feels that it's not worth the effort to partol our boarders. Our boarder policy is a joke!What's the matter with them, dont they pay the rent?
~;)

[Goofball]

What's the matter with them, dont they pay the rent?
~;)

Hehe. I love a nice B&B.

[Ser Clegane]

the two washington DC snipers were illegal immigrants

Illegal immigrants can join the Army in the US? :inquisitive:


t's a serious issue that all the liberal stalinist lenninistic pigs in government ignore.

Who would have thought that of GWB ~:eek:

PS: No more inflammatory remarks here!

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Originally Posted by AdrianII
What's the matter with them, dont they pay the rent?


Hehe. I love a nice B&B.

Oh yeah this is quite humorous. Lets just look at the problem in one city LA.


• In Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide (which total 1,200 to 1,500) target illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens.

• A confidential California Department of Justice study reported in 1995 that 60 percent of the 20,000-strong 18th Street Gang in southern California is illegal; police officers say the proportion is actually much greater. The bloody gang collaborates with the Mexican Mafia, the dominant force in California prisons, on complex drug-distribution schemes, extortion, and drive-by assassinations, and commits an assault or robbery every day in L.A. County. The gang has grown dramatically over the last two decades by recruiting recently arrived youngsters, most of them illegal, from Central America and Mexico.

• The leadership of the Columbia Lil’ Cycos gang, which uses murder and racketeering to control the drug market around L.A.’s MacArthur Park, was about 60 percent illegal in 2002, says former assistant U.S. attorney Luis Li. Francisco Martinez, a Mexican Mafia member and an illegal alien, controlled the gang from prison, while serving time for felonious reentry following deportation.

Its only murder nothing to be alarmed about. Failure to pay their rent indeed.

LINK (http://www.city-journal.org/html/14_1_the_illegal_alien.html)

[Goofball]

Damned illegal immigrants. Stealing jobs from honest, hardworking, homegrown criminals.

[Don Corleone]

Now come on Goofball. You're be deliberately obtuse (I better slow down with that phrase, that's twice today).

Gawain just cited you a bunch of statistics about all of the problems they're causing with Class A felonies and you trivialize it about jobs? If you can't answer his argument, then keep quiet and let it ride. In any case, grow up.

[Tribesman]

Erm why is the 'illegal immigrants' in a Uk prison, being paid for by UK tax payers ?
Because he must be punished for the crime he commited . :dizzy2:
Though of course there are treaties that allow for the government to send him home to serve his sentance , but it is a rather long process that can be appealed at many levels , meaning more expense to the tax payer as the convict would be entitled to legal aid .

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Originally Posted by Kaiser of Arabia
the two washington DC snipers were illegal immigrants

Illegal immigrants can join the Army in the US?
I don't know if they can, but Kapo was referring to the shooting spree done by two wackos in the DC area, I think a year or two ago. :book:

[Goofball]

Sorry. I was deliberately having a poke at him because Adrian and I were actually just having a laugh at Capo using the word "boarder" instead of "border," and it seemed to be that G didn't realize that. Sorry if any of you conservatives took offense at my levity towards an issue that you take seriously. I can imagine it made you feel much like I and some of my lefty buddies feel when you guys are throwing around sexual orientation slurs/epithets and thinking they are funny and harmless.

Okay, back OT:

Yes, crime among illegal immigrants is a problem. Here's a suggestion. Since there doesn't seem to be much you can do to stop them entering the country illegally, why not just ease up on immigration policy so that they come legally? Then, instead of having to work illegally for depressing, peanut-like wages, or worse, turning to crime for a living, they could become contributing members of American society?

[Don Corleone]

These guys are coming over here and joining street gangs and committing the vast majority of felonies in LA and similar cities. You think giving them legal status and asking them to be good citizens and play nice is going to fix all that? ~:rolleyes:

[Redleg]

Yes, crime among illegal immigrants is a problem. Here's a suggestion. Since there doesn't seem to be much you can do to stop them entering the country illegally, why not just ease up on immigration policy so that they come legally? Then, instead of having to work illegally for depressing, peanut-like wages, or worse, turning to crime for a living, they could become contributing members of American society?

Better yet we could deport them to Canada where they can use your systems to improve their lives.

[Goofball]

These guys are coming over here and joining street gangs and committing the vast majority of felonies in LA and similar cities.

Why are they doing those things?


You think giving them legal status and asking them to be good citizens and play nice is going to fix all that?

Some of it, yes. And the reason I believe that lies in the answer to the question I asked you above.


Better yet we could deport them to Canada where they can use your systems to improve their lives.

I'm not really averse to that, as long as my government would be willing to take my advice and allow them landed immigrant status. While Canada also has a problem with illegal immigration, the majority of immigrants to Canada do so legally. And in my experience, legal immigrants contribute far more to the system than they take from it. They work very hard and tend to be even more loyal and patriotic toward their adopted country than many of us who have been here for generations. Also, legal immigrants claim welfare and other social benefits at a rate far lower than their proportional representation in the Canadian population as a whole.

Bring 'em on...

[Redleg]

I'm not really averse to that, as long as my government would be willing to take my advice and allow them landed immigrant status. While Canada also has a problem with illegal immigration, the majority of immigrants to Canada do so legally. And in my experience, legal immigrants contribute far more to the system than they take from it. They work very hard and tend to be even more loyal and patriotic toward their adopted country than many of us who have been here for generations. Also, legal immigrants claim welfare and other social benefits at a rate far lower than their proportional representation in the Canadian population as a whole.

Bring 'em on...

Well I shall write the INS and President Bush and advice them of your philisophy on this. Since there is an estimate 10 million illegal immigrates currently in the United States - shall we send them to you 1 million a month or would you like them all at once.

Plus while we are at it - shall we just establish several bus stations at the major crossing area's for the illegal immigrates and bus them up to your location in Canada so that you can again process them on daily as citizens into your nation. Lets see at last check something like 300-500 a day attempt to cross into the United States.

[Goofball]

Well I shall write the INS and President Bush and advice them of your philisophy on this.

Please do. Because their current philosophy doesn't seem to be working very well.


Since there is an estimate 10 million illegal immigrates currently in the United States - shall we send them to you 1 million a month or would you like them all at once.

Sure send 'em all up. Latina chicks are hot. I love J-Lo...

[Gawain of Orkeny]

How much do you think you government would go along with yor ideas Goofball? I doubt very seriously they would let all these people immigrate there. Maybe you can invite them all over to your house for dinner sometime. How about we just send tham all to your home town and make it the largest city in Canada. I bet you would change your tune in a heartbeat.

[PanzerJaeger]

As a legal immigrant i have a particular disdain for the illegals.

What they do makes a mockery of the process me and my family had to go through.

We should send them all back to their miserable little countries and make them come here the way they are supposed to, oh and pay taxes.

It makes me very angry to see these stations set up in the desert to give these criminals water and the mexican government passing out leaflets about how to usurp american law. Nobody was looking out for me when i had to do it the hard way..

[Kaiser of Arabia]

I have a nice simple if somewhat unrealistic solution.

EDIT Ser Clegane: but as this solution is somehow violating the forum rules it has been removed

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Has BP changed his name?

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

I have a nice simple if somewhat unrealistic solution.
EDIT Ser Clegane: removal of offensive content

Euch. I feel dirty just reading that.

[Don Corleone]

Yeah, no kidding. Kapo, I usually give you more of a benefit of the doubt than I do BP, but I wonder if I'm being fair to either of you. These fantasies of 'killing everyone who causes you trouble' have to end, even if they're only that. Real world problems require real solutions. I know you're intelligent enough, and most days you're mature enough to offer more than that last post.

[Proletariat]

Forget it.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

You're easily the lowest life form who's managed his way onto this board.

Now Nowyour letting yourself get dragged into the gutter with him. Besides this is only an occasional burst by the Kaiser there is another here who spouts such crap regularly.

[bmolsson]

Isn't ALL illegal immigrants criminals ?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Yes but who cares ? ~:confused:

[bmolsson]

Yes but who cares ? ~:confused:

If you already are a criminal, and you know that, it's nature that you will have less moral against add more criminal acts to your record.
Statistics on crimes comparation are therefore irrelevant. The problem is the illegal immigrants and not their crime statistics......

[Ser Clegane]

I don't know if they can, but Kapo was referring to the shooting spree done by two wackos in the DC area, I think a year or two ago. :book:

I know - IIRC, Malvo was indeed an illegal immigrant, I have my doubts about the other one though (AFAIK, he used to be in the US Army - hence my question)

[Papewaio]

As a legal immigrant i have a particular disdain for the illegals.

What they do makes a mockery of the process me and my family had to go through.

We should send them all back to their miserable little countries and make them come here the way they are supposed to, oh and pay taxes.


^ I agree. ~:grouphug:

[Fragony]

Well over here we have finally gotten some common sense, as we gently kick them back to their islands. Shame this is only possible for the ones that come from our colonies, but it's a start. I never understood the jailing of illegal criminals, just send them back, or throw them in a river if they forgot where they are from.

[Papewaio]

Well over here we have finally gotten some common sense, as we gently kick them back to their islands. Shame this is only possible for the ones that come from our colonies, but it's a start. I never understood the jailing of illegal criminals, just send them back, or throw them in a river if they forgot where they are from.

Throw them in a river? What drown them like a stray dog? Humans?

That is a pretty sick sentiment.

[Fragony]

Throw them in a river? What drown them like a stray dog? Humans?

That is a pretty sick sentiment.

Would you do that to a dog? That is just sick ~D

[Al Khalifah]

This has become a topic about problems with the American immigration system and illegal immigrants. What about British illegal immigrants or rather illegal immigrants in Britain?

There are no border police in Britain.

[Meneldil]

Well, actually, there's one, thanks to the french police, who stop some of them before they reach your country. Too bad we have to keep them in france then ~:handball:

[Byzantine Prince]

You people need to stop dragging Canada into this. The vast majority of our immigrants come here legally. In fact I don't wanna imagine how hard illigal immigrants would have to work to get here. With no social insurance number you can't even get a job here. I almost feel bad for them if they come here illigaly, they have to work 100 times harder then the legals like myself.

As for the army thing, Greece does the same thing, if you are illigal and join the army they make you into a citizen which to me makes no sense. ~:confused:

If the US took their troops out of Iraq and placed them where it counted(along the Mexican border and Florida) they wouldn't have as many illigal immigrants and they would be able to send the criminal ones back to their country to be imprisoned there.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

We could do that now and still leave the troops in Iraq but our government on this issue is hopeless.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

I'd just like to apoligize publically for my post, I kinda just lost it earlier this week. Sorry, i hope it wasn't too much of a hassel for you guys.
Thanks
-Capo

[Papewaio]

It takes a big guy to apologise. We all have our bad days... just check my latest sig for proof positive. ~:cheers:

[Kaiser of Arabia]

It takes a big guy to apologise. We all have our bad days... just check my latest sig for proof positive. ~:cheers:
Thanks Pape, I feel your pain. ~:cheers:

[ichi]

Although I'm American, my post is more about human nature than the specifics of US or British or any nation's struggles with crime and immigration.

Here in our little town a local curmudgeon wrote an opinion letter to the editor about how the day before he had read about the arrests of eight Mexicans/Central Americans (every day we get a local police report in the daily rag). He went on to rant about crime and immigrants, specifically those with ez on the end of their names.

Well, of course, the next two weeks the editorial page was covered with letters that pointed out that the vast majority of arrests and convictions listed each day thereafter were all local white American names. Seems like in the long run about 4 of each 5 arrests was an American.

When the sheriff was asked about this he blamed it on unwed mothers.

Every day now I read the arrest report and calculate the local/immigrant ratio.

LOL

ichi :bow:

[JAG]

Reading through this thread I remember why I have the positions I do on crime, punishment, immigrants and criminals themselves. Recently I have looked on some of my positions very closely in light of some events over here, but if I was ever likely to significantly change my position on a couple of points - like I thought I possibly should - it is people like those commenting here which completely remind me of why I have the opinions I do.

It is clearly horrible that an illegal immigrant would commit such a crime, but why is it that no one can think rationally about issues such as these? Why is it no one can recognise that illegal immigrants though in the country unlawfully are still human beings and thus when they commit a crime are not committing a crime because they are illegal immigrants but because they choose to commit it. Why can people then not recognise and admit that people living in the country perfectly legally do the exact same crimes. On top of this why can they not realise that the fact that the person is unlawfully in the country does not play any role in his ability to choose his actions, so why then is it so prominent in reporting and the making up of opinions of the act and the person, why do we have more distain for a person who is an illegal immigrant and steals or is a son of a middle class englishman and steals?

Then why can people not think of reasons why people choose to move whole families across continents to get to another country and even stay in a country when they know they are illegally in the country. It is hope and the prospect of better chances for their family and loved ones which drives them, it is why they work for tiny sums for long hours, because they want to do better for themselves. Why can people then not recognise that although these people might be illegally in the country, they are not people that by nature have some form of horrible, malignant streak in them wanting to cause harm, which always seems to emerge from people in a debate like this. Why can people not recognise these people as people like themselves, and why is it so hard to imagine ourselves doing the same in their situation, wanting to work hard in a country more likely to be better for their family. It is distressing to always see no one recognising this and having the stand point of illegal and legal immigrants being secondary, different and some kind of malignant force. It is not the case.

[Papewaio]

What is the chances of someone making a criminal choice after already making one? Do people make multiple criminal choices until external intervention or internal epiphany?

[JAG]

What is the chances of someone making a criminal choice after already making one? Do people make multiple criminal choices until external intervention or internal epiphany?

That is a very good question, but I think the motivation behind criminal choices is the real significant factor as to whether someone will likely do it again and / or if it can be changed, by whatever means.

For instance a mother with no money to buy her child food may well steal food for her child, not it is a criminal act, but the next day even if she has been caught and warned if her child is hungry it is very likely she will again. An illegal immigrant who works illegally and is thus obviously committing a criminal act, I do not think will have a greater chance of committing say murder, than anyone else. It could be said that if an illegal immigrant will travel across the world and work illegally for the change of giving his family a better future, he may well kill someone for the same ends. But not only has that not been proven by the fact that there are millions of illegal workers in Europe and very little murders by illegal immigrants - I can not think of many cases - but also why would the illegal immigrant jepodise being thrown in jail after travelling so far? Also just because someone works illegally for their family doesn't mean they will kill someone, it takes a dedicated choice to kill someone - meaning rare - and there is no correlation between the two crimes to believe it likely, put in the earlier example, just because a mother is willing to steal to feed her child, she most likely is not going to actively kill someone to feed her child.

As to whether people change their criminal choice ways until external or internal pressures set in, I think that simply depends on the person. I would guess though that in terms of illegal immigrants it would be the former.

[Blodrast]

Now, while I usually do not agree with Jag's socialist views and ideas, I must admit I am quite impressed by his reasoning in this case.
I raise my hat to you, my friend.

Papewaio, there are several flaws (in my opinion) in your reasoning:

1. first off, you're generalizing. There are _many_ cases where it doesn't even start out as a "crime". Lots of people, for instance, get a tourist visa for the US, for instance, and they start working (illegally) while the visa is still valid, and continue working after it expires. Their hope, in many cases, is that maybe they'll be able to get a green card or a work permit before their visa expires. In such cases, if they do no work until their visa expired, they have done nothing illegal. It only becomes a crime after their visa has expired, so you can't call them criminals before that.
My point, which I'm not sure I've managed to express clearly enough, is that not all are criminals and with a criminal intention from the start.

2. secondly (and this is not directed particularly at Papewaio, but also to others who have advocated radical measures against illegal immigrants), without trying to provide an excuse for committing illegal acts, I am not sure you can judge such people unless you really know what their situation is like.
I am not sure how many of you know what most immigrants, legal or illegal, have to go through. BP, in your case, for instance, no offence, but I think you're too young to have perceived and been aware of all the issues your parents have had to deal when your family moved to Canada.
I am aware that there are _lots_ of such illegal immigrants that only care about making some money by exploiting loopholes in civilized countries' legislations, and human rights, and such. And I agree that in such cases they should simply be deported or whatever other similar measures may be deemed adequate.
However, I also believe that a lot of the people that are illegal immigrants, and that work their backs off for peanuts, are only looking for a fair chance to a better life.
If they're willing to go through that much pain and humiliation and risks, perhaps they should not be put into the same bucket with the actual felons. Lots of them are actually honest, hard-working people. And yes, I personally know people from both categories.
I am by no means an expert in immigration laws, but as a human being that's been put through them as well, and knowing many people who have been rejected on the stupidest reasons you could ever imagine, I can tell you that the laws are far from perfect and many people resort to working illegally simply because they would never meet the absurd criteria that are required from them. On the other hand, I've seen sooo many people that were admitted legally even though I could not think of one little thing they could possibly contribute to their adoptive country.

And before you ask, yes, I am an immigrant myself. Legally.

[Tribesman]

There are no border police in Britain.
Really , then who was the strange man who stopped me at Cardiff airport two weeks ago demanding to see my passport .
When I told him I didn't need a passport and production of a passport is not and has never been a requirement for travel between Ireland and Britain he put me in a holding cell .
A very nice man , he told me he could detain me for 7 days without allowing me access to a lawyer , the Embassy or anyone else till they decided what to charge me with .

[Adrian II]

When I told him I didn't need a passport and production of a passport is not and has never been a requirement for travel between Ireland and Britain he put me in a holding cell.I don't know on what legal grounds he did it, but the principle seems sound. You should be able to prove your identity under all sorts of circumstances, including border crossing. It's a rather reassuring story I have to say, and it would be even more so if they'd kept you for a few days.
One never knows, does one? ~:cool:

[Tribesman]

but the principle seems sound.
What , to detain me incommunicado for not producing a document that there is absolutely no legal requirement to produce ?
How is that sound in principle ?
Lucky I had a couple of passports in my luggage to show him eventually . ~;)
Which made him ask more stupid questions , so that raises the issue , if someones job is inspecting passports should they at least have a basic understanding of the laws concerning passports . ~D ~D ~D

[Adrian II]

but the principle seems sound.
What , to detain me incommunicado for not producing a document that there is absolutely no legal requirement to produce ?
How is that sound in principle ?
Lucky I had a couple of passports in my luggage to show him eventually . ~;)
Which made him ask more stupid questions , so that raises the issue , if someones job is inspecting passports should they at least have a basic understanding of the laws concerning passports . ~D ~D ~DI know, I know, I've been a forgerer in my time and Ive always been baffled by the lack of legal and technical expertise in CaE.
~:handball:

[bmolsson]

There are no border police in Britain.
Really , then who was the strange man who stopped me at Cardiff airport two weeks ago demanding to see my passport .
When I told him I didn't need a passport and production of a passport is not and has never been a requirement for travel between Ireland and Britain he put me in a holding cell .
A very nice man , he told me he could detain me for 7 days without allowing me access to a lawyer , the Embassy or anyone else till they decided what to charge me with .

You just misunderstood him. He was selling fake Rolex with 7 days warranty. Please check your cockney dictionary again..... ~;)