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IliaDN
05-19-2005, 14:51
So what is your opinion : is a person should be blamed for bying pirate's disks?
On the hand it is obviosly bad , because he buys stolen job , and the good guys from the company who made the disk don't get their rightly earned money , but on the other hand what person should do if he comes to the shop and see ONLY pirate's produced disks , and if he have to pay for his education , for his leasure time e.t.c.?
~:confused:

Duke Malcolm
05-19-2005, 14:53
Yes, if they know that the disks are pirated. I would never buy pirated disks, they never work for me ... what? I didn't say that...

IliaDN
05-19-2005, 14:54
But if there are no other produvtion avaluable?

Fragony
05-19-2005, 15:00
I never buy pirated stuff, easy theft is still theft. Wait for the bargain bin if you are too poor to pay 60 euro.

Viking
05-19-2005, 15:10
Buy pirated stuff? Never thought of that as an option.

I thought piracy was meaning downloading from the i.net rather buying it.
Why buy a pirate version when you can buy one that are legal, are they that much cheaper?

Al Khalifah
05-19-2005, 15:21
are they that much cheaper?

Oh lord yes.

doc_bean
05-19-2005, 15:29
Yes, but I'm pretty sure that is legal to do overhere, as is downloading anything from the net.

At least for a little while longer, they're changing the IP laws.

Fragony
05-19-2005, 15:35
Yes, but I'm pretty sure that is legal to do overhere, as is downloading anything from the net.

At least for a little while longer, they're changing the IP laws.

No, it isn't. Games have copyright, just like cd's. Publishers created their own monster with the prices they ask, but that is their choice, and not copying/downloading stuff is mine. Stealing is stealing if you ask me, even if everyone does it.

The Stranger
05-19-2005, 16:29
i never buy pirated stuff. tough i do sometimes copy a game from a friend (as far as i know these are original cd's)

IliaDN
05-19-2005, 16:39
It is the same that buying!

Byzantine Prince
05-19-2005, 16:42
I never buy pirated stuff, I get it for free :laugh:

No but seriously, I do that just to check if the game is worth it. I feel it keeps the producers in check.

After I try it out and like I consider purchasing it. I don't see this as being any different from let's say buying a house. You don't buy a house at random when you have no idea what's in it and wether you would like living there. And people don't make it illigal for you to go inside a little to see it do they? Is that piracy too(lol)?

IliaDN
05-19-2005, 16:50
Check new comer question thread in colluseum,
and keep in mind that I want to buy legal copy , but when :
1. I have enough free money ;
2. After E.B. expansion.

doc_bean
05-19-2005, 16:54
No, it isn't. Games have copyright, just like cd's. Publishers created their own monster with the prices they ask, but that is their choice, and not copying/downloading stuff is mine. Stealing is stealing if you ask me, even if everyone does it.

It is illegal to MAKE copies for use outside the family circle,, apparently, downloading doesn't fit this description, as it is making a copy for your own use. Under Belgian law, only the distributer of illegal material is held accountable.

The new law will make it illegal to own or use anything that circumvents copyright protection. This includes mod chips, no cd hacks, etc.

I think they are also going to extend this to 'all material acquired with these tools' or some other legal description, so that would make downloading hacked games illegal.

Just to be clear, I don't download or copy since I think it is morally wrong.

Al Khalifah
05-19-2005, 16:56
This reminds me of something. Apparently a student on a gap year in Australia was on a boat that was captured by pirates. REAL PIRATES as in the kind who board ships and rape, plunder and pillage - not the sort of sissies who think they're a bit risque because they download a keygen once.

IliaDN
05-19-2005, 16:58
And what?

Productivity
05-19-2005, 17:00
and if he have to pay for his education , for his leasure time e.t.c.?

The fact that you can't afford RTW retail does not mean you have any justification or right to steal it. Few of us can afford everything we want. We all manage to prioritise by marginal value, you can as well.

I find it difficult to beleive that with the level of internet shopping available, it is impossible for you to buy legitimate games.

Byzantine Prince
05-19-2005, 17:01
:laugh:


No but isn't more fair if you can try the full game before purchasing it? I think it is. In some cases you don't need to like RTW because you know what it's like, but for other games it's much harder to tell.

Productivity
05-19-2005, 17:04
:laugh:


No but isn't more fair if you can try the full game before purchasing it? I think it is. In some cases you don't need to like RTW because you know what it's like, but for other games it's much harder to tell.

That's the risk you take. There is no absolute right to be able to try before you buy. Some goods have this, but plenty don't. Do you go into a supermarket and demand to eat an apple before you will buy any?

Byzantine Prince
05-19-2005, 17:07
That's a very bad example. You don't need to try fruit before you buy it, lol.

A better one and one that has similar price range, do you walk into a watch store and NOT adk to try wearing the watch to see if it fits and if you like it.

Productivity
05-19-2005, 17:16
That's a very bad example. You don't need to try fruit before you buy it, lol.

A better one and one that has similar price range, do you walk into a watch store and NOT adk to try wearing the watch to see if it fits and if you like it.

You try it on. For five minutes. That is hardly equivalent to playing through a game for a reasonable amount of time.

But if you want to go for a isoprice example, you don't read a book before buying it.

Lets face it, you and all pirates are trying to justify somethign that in the eyes of society is morally wrong. I'm not going to get sanctimonious about actually pirating (although I am going to sit here with a stick and poke holes in any argument I can), I've done it before (I no longer pirate, everything I have now is legitimate), but never once did I try to come up with pissy justifications for it.

Byzantine Prince
05-19-2005, 17:20
In some countries like Japan it's completely legal dgb.

I'm not a moral person but if it's illigal I won't do it. I don't pirate anymore, I don't like games that much anymore anyhow. When I used to do it it was legal though, or I didn't know it wasn't. ~;)

Productivity
05-19-2005, 17:24
In some countries like Japan it's completely legal dgb.

You are not in Japan. In a dialogue between you and I, only the laws and moral standards of two countries matter. Australia, Canada.

I did not know that it was legal to copy/download copyrighted material in Canada, and to be honest I find it quite strange to say the least.

If you are not a moral person, why are you wasting your time trying to come up with morally sound reasons to pirate?

IliaDN
05-19-2005, 17:28
In my opinion as far as moral options are concered there are more important things to carry about ~:cool: ( such as helping others , loving people e.t.c. )!

Byzantine Prince
05-19-2005, 17:28
You thought those were moral? No they were simply world-market reasons. You shouldn't be forced to keep something that you don't want that seemed perfect before the purchase.

Again you don't buy a car when you don't even know how it looks inside.

Now you're gonna say that "well you can keep a pirated game forever", right? Well, you don't have to. It's up to you to do the right thing. The copy is never as good as the original anyways.

Productivity
05-19-2005, 18:07
In my opinion as far as moral options are concered there are more important things to carry about ~:cool: ( such as helping others , loving people e.t.c. )!

What is your point? There are more moral things that can be done with your money, so you think it is right to steal? Again it comes down to priorities. If you want to help others and give money to charity, do so. But that requires you to prioritise your money at the expense of something else, in this case, R:TW.


You thought those were moral? No they were simply world-market reasons. You shouldn't be forced to keep something that you don't want that seemed perfect before the purchase.

No, they were attempted moralisations, using (bad) economics as a justification. The fact that you do not have sufficient information about a product before a purchase is no reason to be able to steal something. You can accept the risk and purchase it anyway, not accept the risk and do not purchase it, or wait to gain more information. All three of those are legal and moral. Stealing it is not.


Again you don't buy a car when you don't even know how it looks inside.

Hold on, a few posts up you were haranguing me about using an example that was of a price different to a game. Now you go and compare a car to a game. Make up your mind. Either we can compare things with different prices or we can't.


Now you're gonna say that "well you can keep a pirated game forever", right? Well, you don't have to. It's up to you to do the right thing. The copy is never as good as the original anyways.

Well I wasn't, but since you decided to bring it up I'll deal with it, you say it is up to the pirate to do the right thing. Let's look at you here. You have allready admitted you are not a moral person. Furthermore, you have allready stolen it, again you are not painting a picture of yourself that says "I am one likely to do the right thing". My faith in you, or any pirate to do the right thing can be approximated to zero.

But regardless, lets actually attack the main body of this argument. Even if you do "the right thing", you have still held it for some time, and taken advantage of it. You have stolen for that time. Now you have two options here, you destroy the pirated copy and buy it or you destroy it and don't. If you destroy it and buy it, for the sake of simplicity, I'll agree that for that game, there was no moral wrong.

However the second option means that you have played the game (presumably substantially because you want to get a feel for it beyond what a review writes), without paying for that priveledge (and yes it is a priveledge, even if you do not enjoy it). In this case a moral wrong has occured. You have appropriated a priveledge, without any form of compensation.

Now we have two scenarios, one in which there is no moral wrong, another where there is. However because any real life case of a pirate pirating to check games first would have a mixture of the two (because if it was allways the case that you buy the game afterwards, why would you bother pirating beforehand?), there will allways be a degree of moral wrong.

The only moral justification for pirating is if you allways by the games afterwards, and if that is the case, there is no point to pirating.

Feel free to keep pirating, I'm not going to try and stop you. But please don't keep driveling this pseudo-moral garbage.



Anyway, I'm going to bed.

Byzantine Prince
05-19-2005, 18:16
Why do you drag morals into this? Are you afraid that you cannot make your point otherwise. No one needs to follow morals, EVERYONE needs to follow the law.

As far as I know there is no law here in Canada against this. If someone wants to correct me they are welcome.

To add on to that even if there was law that I don't know of, it's impossible to keep it in check because of this:
Personal Information Protection and Electronic Documents Act (http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/P-8.6/93196.html)
No has the right to mess with your files or anything that could be considered private.

Ser Clegane
05-19-2005, 18:44
To add on to that even if there was law that I don't know of, it's impossible to keep it in check because of this:
Personal Information Protection and Electronic Documents Act (http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/P-8.6/93196.html)
No has the right to mess with your files or anything that could be considered private.

In the last point you are basically just saying that it's OK to break laws as long as you can avoid getting caught.

Byzantine Prince
05-19-2005, 18:46
No my point was that they can't check it, therefore it would be mostly useless to even devise such a law.

Again if there is a law against this I don't know about you are welcome to point that out with some evidence.

Ser Clegane
05-19-2005, 18:50
Again if there is a law against this I don't know about you are welcome to point that out with some evidence.

I leave that to your fellow Canadians as I am personally not that interested in the detailed copyright legislation of individual countries other than my own ~D

The Stranger
05-19-2005, 20:01
It is the same that buying!

it isn't really pirated, it is pirated a little bit, but atleast they got cash for one disc, and they can always go selling empty cd's

Husar
05-19-2005, 20:19
A sentence comes to my mind, saying: "This game is protected by international copyright laws."
I can´t remember where I read that, but it must have been more than once.
If I understand that correctly, international means everywhere on earth, including Canada.

The Stranger
05-19-2005, 20:28
i'm not from canada

Byzantine Prince
05-19-2005, 20:37
A sentence comes to my mind, saying: "This game is protected by international copyright laws."
I can´t remember where I read that, but it must have been more than once.
If I understand that correctly, international means everywhere on earth, including Canada.
The copyright laws don't work in some countries at all actually. Just because it's called international doesn't mean there is legislature in every single country supporting it.

As for Canada and/or places like Japan sharing private information such as computer data from a CD-rom is not illigal. Distribution of illigal disks is of course, and that's what that copyright law entails.

Idomeneas
05-19-2005, 20:58
sometimes piracy is the only way for consumers to hit the big companies that care only about their pockets and overrated products. Its is well known that many big software companies cough -adobe -cough were licking their own products so in that way they will spread on a wider costumer base wich those costumers on the one hand had a free product but on the other hand they wouldnt risk using it for proffessional exploitation since if they were cought they would had their ass cut by fines. Over the years those products went in almost every home and users being accustomed to using them they would pay for them later and prefer them over other maybe cheaper software.

The customer base increased and the prices also. At this point were a product like photoshop is dominant they start using nifty locks and activation gimmicks.

Its a big complicated matter. I agree many companies lose money but on the other hand they would propably never get those money since the product
a)would not be wide spread
b)other cheaper products would prevail

Spetulhu
05-19-2005, 21:02
The thing that really sucks here is that copy protection sometimes interferes with my rightful usage of the product. Seems I don't own the thing I paid good money for!

I really like to rip my music CDs to my PC so I don't have to keep swapping discs all the time, but copy protection makes it hard at times. I've got one so-called CD where the music is encoded in something my PC can't even recognize. Making a copy of the game CD or using a nocd crack so I don't have to wear out the original is also a reasonable thing, but increasingly hard today.

Do you think the real pirates have problems with this? They get around the copy protection once and start the CD press, making money on it. And all the music houses whine about it even as they continue selling music at too high prices and too low quality.

Why, back in the days... I remember how they said CDs would eventually become far cheaper than vinyl, once the initial investments were paid off. But that hasn't happened. :furious3:

Lonewarrior
05-19-2005, 21:20
for games, some of them are alright, since the price of a video game is ridiculous, but movies just plain no. Not good quality, ever.

Idomeneas
05-19-2005, 21:42
The thing that really sucks here is that copy protection sometimes interferes with my rightful usage of the product. Seems I don't own the thing I paid good money for!

I really like to rip my music CDs to my PC so I don't have to keep swapping discs all the time, but copy protection makes it hard at times. I've got one so-called CD where the music is encoded in something my PC can't even recognize. Making a copy of the game CD or using a nocd crack so I don't have to wear out the original is also a reasonable thing, but increasingly hard today.

Do you think the real pirates have problems with this? They get around the copy protection once and start the CD press, making money on it. And all the music houses whine about it even as they continue selling music at too high prices and too low quality.

Why, back in the days... I remember how they said CDs would eventually become far cheaper than vinyl, once the initial investments were paid off. But that hasn't happened. :furious3:

Youre so right! For record companies a vinyl album production was too costly since it included record printing machines, more expensive packaging due to dimentions and carton-paper and printing.

In nowdays the technology has advanced so much that even if you jam in a studio you can have your rehearsal on cd. More accuratelly whole productions can be done in home studios.

So what do we have? reduced production cost and higher prices at the same time of the product. Deep pockets getting deeper.

The other crazy thing? Software licence for two stations!! whats that :furious3: ? I paid 1500 euro for a software and i wanna have it in all the work stations i god damn own!! They take us for completly victims? Is it my fault after if i use pirated software?

Movies DVD unless they have some killer packaging like LOTR i just go to my video club, rent anything i want and rip them. I have a huge collection and it costs only 1.5 euro a movie instead of 40 or 50.

Under jolly Roger!! :guitarist:

Evil_Maniac From Mars
05-19-2005, 21:47
Yes, but I'm pretty sure that is legal to do overhere, as is downloading anything from the net.

At least for a little while longer, they're changing the IP laws.
Download and buy while you can, and send me some! To anyone besides doc_bean: you DID NOT read what I just wrote ~:) ~;) :bow: ~:cheers:

Alexander the Pretty Good
05-19-2005, 21:56
I really dislike pirating, and I dislike even more those who brag about.


My summary of this thread:
Pirating is OK because I can't afford the stuff I want.
Pirating is OK because "I feel it keeps the producers in check."
Pirating is OK because there aren't laws against it. Even though there are.
Pirating is OK because it "is the only way for consumers to hit the big companies that care only about their pockets and overrated products."
Pirating isn't OK when the quality is bad.

These reasons suck. And BP, give me a break. Not a single one of your analogies were even slightly valid.

Ser Clegane
05-19-2005, 22:03
I have the feeling that this thread is turning into a pirating/ripping justification thread.

Better stop before any more patrons out themselves as thieves...

Thread closed