Settlers

[English assassin]

Oh goody, ANOTHER middle east thread. That's what we all need...

But, wait. I'd like to raise a specific question. That is, what are the rights of the settlers in the occupied territories, and what should Isreal and the Palestinian Authority seek to do with them?

NB this is about the SETTLERS only, and by extension the occupied territory, it is NOT about Isreal within the pre 1967 borders, it is NOT about toddler suicide bombers, etc etc etc.

I raise this in part as a shameless way of posting a link and quotes that I posted in another thread and which rather sank without trace. I found the insight into the SETTLER mindset very illuminating indeed. In many ways they are wholly terrifying, as is anyone who thinks that while "God requires other, normal nations to abide by abstract codes of "justice and righteousness," such laws do not apply to Jews."

But as ever understanding where these people come from throws up some interesting angles. Mainly that they are obviously way outside mainstream Jewish thought. So why do they have Isreal and America by the balls? Aslo, it is plainly not possible to even have a dialogue with people who espouse the views discussed in the link. Therefore it seems force, applied by Isreal very possibly, can be the only answer?

Really, it is a very good link for anyone wanting to understand the mentality of one of the major elements in the problem. http://www.ssc.upenn.edu/polisci/fa.../lustick14.html

Quote:
The implication of chosenness is that the transcendental imperatives to which Jews must respond effectively nullify the moral laws that bind the behavior of normal nations. In "Messianic Realism," and other articles, Aviner considers the relationship between history, politics, and redemption. He argues that divine commandments to the Jewish people "transcend human notions of national rights." He explains that while God requires other, normal nations to abide by abstract codes of "justice and righteousness," such laws do not apply to Jews.

Ours is not an autonomous scale of values, the product of human reason, but rather an heteronomous or, more correctly, theonomous scale rooted in the will of the Divine architect of the universe and its moral order. 7 From the point of view of mankind's humanistic morality we were in the wrong in (taking the land) from the Canaanites. There is only one catch. The command of God ordered us to be the people of the Land of Israel.
Thus does Jewish fundamentalism utterly reject the traditional Zionist image of Jews as a normal people, bound by and rewarded according to the same laws and principles of national self-determination applicable to other nations.



Quote:
The Meaning of Arab Opposition to Israel. As befits an abnormal nation, the conflicts Israel encounters with its neighbors are not normal either. In their analysis of the Arab conflict with Israel, if not always in their propaganda, most Israeli leaders have sought to explain Arab hostility in practical terms-as a conflict that stems from misperceptions or specific circumstances. Accordingly, as those perceptions and circumstances change, opportunities for ending the conflict can materialize and should be awaited, identified, and exploited.

Gush Emunim views the conflict with the Arabs in a radically different way-as the latest and most crucial episode in Israel's eternal battle to overcome the forces of evil. This stance is illustrated in the words with which Eleazar Waldman-head of the Kiryat Arba Yeshiva, Member of Knesset for the Tehiya party, and prominent student of Rav Tzvi Yehuda-reassured fundamentalist Jews troubled by the outcome of the Lebanon War. By fighting the Arabs, Waldman reminded his audience, Israel carries out its mission to serve "as the heart of the world, in contact with every organ, and with the world understanding that it must receive the blood of life from the heart."



Quote:
Jewish fundamentalists' assumptions about the world, however, make it essentially impossible for them to see Jews and Palestinians in comparable terms. Nor can fundamentalists acknowledge any real tie between the Palestinians, or any human group other than the Jewish people, and the Land of Israel. To do so would contradict the prophecy that the Promised Land would "vomit out" any other people that tries to live there, and that only with the return of the Jews would the land again "shoot forth branches, and yield fruit," 11 as a sign of the beginning of the messianic age. Hence, historically unsupportable notions that only under Jewish cultivation did Palestine become a productive country and that most Palestinian Arabs arrived in the area only within the past century are treated as incontrovertible

Quote:
The Jews are authorized by the living God and creator of the universe as a legitimate, eternal people with unalienable rights to the entire Land of Israel. The Palestinians have absolutely no legitimate claim to nationhood or to any part of the country. They have experienced no real suffering, and have drawn together as an entity only out of opposition to the Jews. Theirs is a "suicidal" struggle for the elimination of the state and people of Israel. As such, Israel must recognize the Palestinians as the most destructive and dangerous emanation of Arab hostility, and stand ready to destroy them as they seek to fulfill their collective "deathwish."

[Fragony]

They get what they deserve when they are blown to bits.

[Beirut]

What are the rights of the settlers in the occupied territories?

None. They are violent miscreants and thieves who want nothing more than to antagonize the local population ans steal their land and water so they can feel special and create the opportunity to play cowboy and get some trigger time shooting Palestinians.


And what should Isreal and the Palestinian Authority seek to do with them?

Throw them out!

[Ser Clegane]

They are violent miscreants and thieves who want nothing more than to antagonize the local population ans steal their land and water so they can feel special and create the opportunity to play cowboy and get some trigger time shooting Palestinians.




They get what they deserve when they are blown to bits.


We don't want to re-use that big brush in this thread as well to paint the other side of the fence, do we?

I have some serious doubts that all Israeli settlers and their families in the occupied territories are hellspawn that derserve to be "blown up".

I expect some more "objectivity"... as would EA like to see in the thread he started, I assume.

[Fragony]

We don't want to re-use that big brush in this thread as well to paint the other side of the fence, do we?

I have some serious doubts that all Israeli settlers and their families in the occupied territories are hellspawn that derserve to be "blown up".

I expect some more "objectivity"... as would EA like to see in the thread he started, I assume.

Well sorry, but they are. Why relativate ethnic cleansing?

[Ser Clegane]

Well sorry, but they are. Why relativate ethnic cleansing?

Because we are getting in the same situation as in the other thread - only the other way around. You are judging all settlers by the actions of the most hateful and aggressive ones.

There is a difference in having the opinion that these settlements should not be were they are and should therefore be removed, and saying that all the people who live in these settlements are monsters that are guilty of ethnic cleansing and derserve to be killed.

[Templar Knight]

is this what they hope to get?

http://www.alfredlilienthal.com/planned-web.jpg

[Beirut]

I am not, nor would I, say anything negative about the Jews as a people. But the settlers are an extremist element of those people. They know bloody well that what they are doing is hurting people, stealing their land and water, forcing confrontation and destroying any chance of peace.

I would not condemn any race of people, but regardless of race, anyone who steals from me is a thief. The settlers are thieves. They steal land, steal water, and wander about with guns with the hope of getting some trigger time. They are the equivalent of gang members and they should be thrown out of the occupied territories. Every last one of them.

Especially the ones in Gaza. What kind of a sadistic moron moves into a painfully overcrowded piece of land with his family and takes over, by force, the best parts and then steals as much water as he can, to the detriment of the locals. And then demands the army set up watchtowers with snipers so he can go about his apartheid existence of plenty amongst the disenfranchised poor.

Throw the bums out. Every single one of them.

[Fragony]

is this what they hope to get?

http://www.alfredlilienthal.com/planned-web.jpg

Well 'to get' is a bit off, 'to take' is more apropiate.

[Templar Knight]

Who planned this greater Israel anyway? or is it just the 'promised' land?

[English assassin]

Especially the ones in Gaza. What kind of a sadistic moron moves into a painfully overcrowded piece of land with his family and takes over, by force, the best parts and then steals as much water as he can, to the detriment of the locals. And then demands the army set up watchtowers with snipers so he can go about his apartheid existence of plenty amongst the disenfranchised poor

well, that's what was interesting about the article, it explained why they do that. What especially interested me was that they (well, Gush Eminum) do expressly reject any idea that they should behave "normally", so eg an argument that it is obviously unfair than one person should have 100 times more water than another is just considered meaningless if one is a settler and the other an arab. But they do not actually wish harm on the arabs. They simply think God demands that they live there and if an arab happens to be in the way thats too bad.

This has moved my appreciation on, although not necessarily positively, in that it is obviously good that the objective is not actually the extermination of arabs, but bad that it is apparently the case that no "normal" dialogue is possible. You simply cant talk to someone who says (and give them credit for honesty) "I know by human standards it is wrong to take the land/water, but I must because God commands it". (This is bad also for Isreal of course, its interesting to see the settlers do not appear to regard the current state of Isreal with very much more affection than they do the arabs.)

There is not much point debating the views of religiious nut jobs, of course, though as I say its helpful to know what they are. I don't suppose anyone on the board is about to say that God really does command these people to live there. I really don't understand yet why the Isreali government, or the Amercians, has chosen to walk down Crappy street for the sake of people who do not accept the basic premises of either state. They, if not the settlers, can be counted on to act rationally, or at least to be open to rational argument. Yet their actions in support of the settlers seem to be bringing danger to the whole of Isreal and making Amercia hated in the whole Muslim world.

So, why are they doing it?

(Oh, and, really trying to keep this on topic, could we explain where that map of greater Isreal came from and how it reflects that settlers actually hope for, or else not get too drawn into it please? I wasn't aware that the settlers claimed much more than the current occupied territories)

[Fragony]

And Hitler wasn't so bad, after all he was believing in what he was doing. I don't think the jews really cared about that back then.

[Adrian II]

I think we should cut off the settlers' funding in the same way we (try to) cut off the funding of islamist terrorists. Treating them in the same category as the 'other' beards would send a sobering message both to the more reasonable settlers, their sympathizers inside and outside of Israel, and the government in Tel Aviv.

[Adrian II]

Bump

[Gawain of Orkeny]

I think we should cut off the settlers' funding in the same way we (try to) cut off the funding of islamist terrorists.

Come on you mean we should stop giving Israel money. We dont Directly fund the settlers. Many ignore the reason we give Israel money is the agreement Carter made . We bribed both Israel and Egypt not to fight eachother. Adrian you dont suggest we break our treaty now are you?

[Snowhobbit]

Perhaps he's suggesting a boycott of goods made by the settlers?

[Adrian II]

Come on you mean we should stop giving Israel money.No, I said 'settlers' and I mean settlers. Find out how they earn or get their money and cut it off. If we can do it to beards with guns hiding in caves, we can do it to beards with guns hiding behind barbed wire.

[Adrian II]

Perhaps he's suggesting a boycott of goods made by the settlers?No, I'm suggesting to cut off their money supply just like we do with Al Qaida.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

No, I'm suggesting to cut off their money supply just like we do with Al Qaida.

How? We give money to the Israelis and they give it to the settlers. I hear almost all of what we gave them last year went to pay for new homes in Israel for those settlers who moved out of the occupied territories.

[Adrian II]

How? We give money to the Israelis and they give it to the settlers. I hear almost all of what we gave them last year went to pay for new homes in Israel for those settlers who moved out of the occupied territories.You farshlepte krenk, you should read more Jewish papers. Here’s how Ha’aretz (http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArtVty.jhtml?sw=settlement&itemNo=578205) describes the glorious settler movement. The money for the extremists comes from Dutch Protestant morons, from Jews (http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0197/9701039.htm) in Toronto, bingo halls (http://www.stopmoskowitz.com/article0011.shtml) in California, you name it. Stop the funding, seize the funds, prosecute anyone who does business with them.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Oh your speaking private money like they used to and may still do for the IRA. It going to be hard to close down a jewish bingo hall. Seperation of church and state you know.


I can see where these settkers come from. The land they live on was called Judea. Jerusalem is the ancient capital of Israel and even in recent times has been mainly Jewish in population. Much as I sympathise with them , this is wrong. If they really want to live there let the Palestinians have their state and then buy land there. If both countries are free and democratic your religion should be of little consequence in either.

[sharrukin]

So it's perfectly acceptable for Arab villages to exist in Isreal and to spew hate at the Isreali's and Americans (dancing in the streets when the two towers went down). What is not acceptable is for Jewish nutjobs to live in the westbank regions. Why is that? Why is OK for Arabs to live where they want but not for Jews?

[Papewaio]

So it's perfectly acceptable for Arab villages to exist in Isreal and to spew hate at the Isreali's and Americans (dancing in the streets when the two towers went down). What is not acceptable is for Jewish nutjobs to live in the westbank regions. Why is that? Why is OK for Arabs to live where they want but not for Jews?

So if the promised land was relocated to Canada and you were made a second class citizen you would be okay with that as long as it alleviated Europeans of WWII guilt complex?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

So if the promised land was relocated to Canada and you were made a second class citizen you would be okay with that as long as it alleviated Europeans of WWII guilt complex?

Bad analogy as Canada is a soverign nation. Well almost ~D



Much like Australia I might add ~D

[Papewaio]

Not really a bad one particularly if prior groups is used.

Aborogines for Australia.
Moa Hunters for NZ.
Eskimos for Canada (or French perhaps).
American Indians for the US.

etc. All it takes is a colonial type power to take over one of these nations and then award the lands to prior inhabitants...

[Gawain of Orkeny]

How about Jews from Israel ? Or Palestine as it is now reffered to.

[Papewaio]

There has been a long time between the orginal nation of Israel and the new nation of Israel. Inbetween quite a few different nations have controlled those lands. From Romans to Ottomans it has changed hands between empires.

So how is that any different from say France invading Canada and awarding the country to the eskimos who predate the current Canadians?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

There has been along time between the orginal nation of Israel and the new nation of Israel. Inbetween quite a few different nations have controlled those lands. From Romans to Ottomans it has changed hands between empires.

Its been a long time since the indians owned america also.The Palestinians NEVER had a government and they are not a peoples. Most of them migrated there recently just like the Jews.

and this


American Indians for the US.

It wasnt the US that took the land from the indians but the French, English and Spanish. We bougth those territories from them. We werent even around until 1776. Was it fair? No? Was it legal. It seems that way. Might indeed does make right when it comes to ownership of land. Again to me its no more than the evolution of man. The better race or species takes over. Only the strong survive. Its the law of nature.

[Papewaio]

Might indeed does make right when it comes to ownership of land. Again to me its no more than the evolution of man. The better race or species takes over. Only the strong survive. Its the law of nature.

Don't confuse moral might with technological might.

Nor confuse 'racial' strength with whom has the best scientists...

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Im not confused in the least.

[sharrukin]

So if the promised land was relocated to Canada and you were made a second class citizen you would be okay with that as long as it alleviated Europeans of WWII guilt complex?

Thought this was about settlers. Now we are questioning the right of Isreal to exist? What about the Germans who were expelled from the eastern territories at about the same time Isreal was founded. Do you feel these areas should be given back to Germany? Should Poland have claim to the western areas of the former Soviet Union? Do you feel the Greeks driven out in 1922 from Turkey should be given Turkish territory? If not then why should the Palestinian claims be any greater? Because they have killed enough people in acts of terrorism that we want it to stop? Blaming Isreal is the easiest thing to do and seems to be the route too many take.

I have no guilt at what happened to the Jews in world war two. I didn't do it, and I am personally sick of hearing about the holocaust as if it something special. Genocide is nothing new and the German methodical approach was the only thing new about it. None of the nations who went to war did so because of the Jews, nor should they have. It was the business of the Jews to look out for themselves and they are now doing so in the form of the state of Isreal. Isreal is looking after it's own interests and that is what they should have done all along because other will not assume that burden.


Bad analogy as Canada is a soverign nation. Well almost ~D

Canada is one of the United States closest allies and one of the few countries to defeat you in a war (war if 1812) so have some respect! :charge:


Not really a bad one particularly if prior groups is used.

Aborogines for Australia.
Moa Hunters for NZ.
Eskimos for Canada (or French perhaps).
American Indians for the US.

etc. All it takes is a colonial type power to take over one of these nations and then award the lands to prior inhabitants...

Don't worry we don't need any foreign power to return Canada to the Indians as we are busy doing that ourselves! Do you believe Canada or the USA have the right to exist? We took the land from the inhabitants, should we give it all back?



It wasnt the US that took the land from the indians but the French, English and Spanish. We bougth those territories from them. We werent even around until 1776. Was it fair? No? Was it legal. It seems that way. Might indeed does make right when it comes to ownership of land. Again to me its no more than the evolution of man. The better race or species takes over. Only the strong survive. Its the law of nature.

Now you are blaming the French for what happened at Wounded Knee! ~:eek:

http://img82.echo.cx/img82/5691/465pxmapofterritorialgrowth177.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

America in 1776. However did they get the rest?

[sharrukin]

is this what they hope to get?

http://www.alfredlilienthal.com/planned-web.jpg



Who planned this greater Israel anyway? or is it just the 'promised' land?

This is a load of nonsense and no this is not what is regarded as 'Greater Isreal' even by the most rabid Jewish groups. This is from a anti-Jewish site and has no reflection in reality.

BTW I am not suggesting that these are your views, only that the map was made by people with these views.

He MUST know that the holocaust IS a hoax.

Maybe it's to take our eyes off the ultimate Zionist goal for World Dominion.

It keeps our eyes on that small piece of land (small in relation to the whole globe) and meanwhile, the priesthood (and their useful idiots) are busy gobbling up ALL natural resources in ALL countries, and mind-controlling the masses to submit with pleasure.

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.sweetliberty.org/issues/israel/greater_israel_files/planned.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.sweetliberty.org/issues/israel/greater_israel.shtml&h=317&w=498&sz=58&tbnid=x65I3WvwPqIJ:&tbnh=80&tbnw=126&hl=en&start=3&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dgreater%2Bisrael%26hl%3Den%26lr%3Dlang_en%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DN

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Canada is one of the United States closest allies and one of the few countries to defeat you in a war (war if 1812) so have some respect!

First off Canada wasnt a nation back then. The war was between Britain and the US. That wasnt your troops in the redcoats burning Washington. Secondly the British didnt even win the war nevermind Canada. Stop trying to take credit for the accomplishment of GBs armies. Without them you wouldnt be a country today.


Now you are blaming the French for what happened at Wounded Knee!

Not at all. Im just staing that we bought all this land from the Spanish,British or French. Either that or won it from them in battle. The French were by far the best in their treatment of indians as far as I can tell though. Again Im not saying its right its just the way of the world. Hey Ive never seen that map. I didnt realised French territory went that far.

[sharrukin]

First off Canada wasnt a nation back then. The war was between Britain and the US. That wasnt your troops in the redcoats burning Washington. Secondly the British didnt even win the war nevermind Canada. Stop trying to take credit for the accomplishment of GBs armies. Without them you wouldnt be a country today.

Well technically we are still subjects of Her Majesty the Queen. And more importantly according to you we are not really a country and we still kicked your but!


Bad analogy as Canada is a soverign nation. Well almost ~D

And the American troops who crossed the borders were met by Canadian Militia and allied indians as well as redcoats.

A heroic War of Liberation against a piece of naked US aggression. The Americans believed it was their "manifest destiny" to control the whole of the North American continent, hence also the unjustified war against poor Mexico. Can you smell something burning? Oh, yeah, its the White House. ~D

[Gawain of Orkeny]

. And more importantly according to you we are not really a country and we still kicked your but!

Again it wasnt you and the British didnt win either so nobodies butt was kicked. It was a draw.

When I say this


. And more importantly according to you we are not really a country and we still kicked your but!

Its because of this


Well technically we are still subjects of Her Majesty the Queen.



And the American troops who crossed the borders were
A pitiful ill led bunch.


A heroic War of Liberation against a piece of naked US aggression.

The nakewd aggression was British Men O War stopping US ships and shanghi-ing their crews.


The Americans believed it was their "manifest destiny" to control the whole of the North American continent, hence also the unjustified war against poor Mexico.

Do they teach you that in school in Canada?


Can you smell something burning? Oh, yeah, its the White House.

How many Canadian troops participated in this battle?

If you want to start another thread on the war of 1812 please do so. On the matter of this topic we seem to agree for the most part.

[sharrukin]

Don't take it too seriously as it certainly wasn't meant that way. And they barely teach history at all in Canadian schools. I doubt most Canadian kids could even tell you what year the 'War of 1812" took place in. They do teach the part about "manifest destiny".

And the American troops who crossed the borders were

A pitiful ill led bunch.

You aint kidding! It's almost a classic in how not to fight a war.

We won!

[Papewaio]

So if the promised land was relocated to Canada and you were made a second class citizen you would be okay with that as long as it alleviated Europeans of WWII guilt complex?

Thought this was about settlers. Now we are questioning the right of Isreal to exist?

It is, what I was responding to is why the Palestinians are reacting like this. Not a lot different to Algeria and quite a few other nations.



I have no guilt at what happened to the Jews in world war two. I didn't do it, and I am personally sick of hearing about the holocaust as if it something special. Genocide is nothing new and the German methodical approach was the only thing new about it. None of the nations who went to war did so because of the Jews, nor should they have.

None of the Nations may have gone for the Jews. But a lot of the guys who enlisted certainly didn't like what the Nazis where doing to them prior to WWII. And most of them certainly did not like what they found at the sites of the Final Solution. The Holocaust is something that should not be forgotten nor excused because others have attempted the same thing. The least we can do is remember it and prevent any other forms of genocide.


It was the business of the Jews to look out for themselves and they are now doing so in the form of the state of Isreal.


This is where I disagree. To let facism grow is not in the interests of anyone bar facists. Facism is just another form of fundamentalist hatred. It is the business of all humans to stand against such hatred. Be it pen or sword those who think should stand against those who chose a path of ignorant hate.

No duty is sacred when it defends facism. No honour is found in marching in lockstep jingoistic nationalism at the expense of humanity.

IMDHO Evil is when we ignore the humanity in others.

[sharrukin]

It is, what I was responding to is why the Palestinians are reacting like this. Not a lot different to Algeria and quite a few other nations.

Well the Algerian government is busy battling it's own home grown Islamic extremist movement.

Originally Posted by sharrukin
I have no guilt at what happened to the Jews in world war two. I didn't do it, and I am personally sick of hearing about the holocaust as if it something special. Genocide is nothing new and the German methodical approach was the only thing new about it. None of the nations who went to war did so because of the Jews, nor should they have.



None of the Nations may have gone for the Jews. But a lot of the guys who enlisted certainly didn't like what the Nazis where doing to them prior to WWII. And most of them certainly did not like what they found at the sites of the Final Solution. The Holocaust is something that should not be forgotten nor excused because others have attempted the same thing. The least we can do is remember it and prevent any other forms of genocide.

My statement about the jews needing to look out for themselves was not an endorsement of what the Nazi's did. Nor was it a suggestion that it was in some way earned by the Jews pre-war pacifistic mentality. My point was that no people should expect others to look after their best interests as it is not human nature to do so. The Jews did rely on the community of nations and they were wrong to do so. The list of peoples who have put their trust in such empty promises is a long one and it almost always fails.

Originally Posted by sharrukin
It was the business of the Jews to look out for themselves and they are now doing so in the form of the state of Israel.



This is where I disagree. To let facism grow is not in the interests of anyone bar facists. Facism is just another form of fundamentalist hatred. It is the business of all humans to stand against such hatred. Be it pen or sword those who think should stand against those who chose a path of ignorant hate.

Does that apply to the Palestinians who were dancing in the streets when the 911 attack took place? Or do we find excuses for their behaviour the same way the Nazi's found an excuse for their own?

"It was the Jews and what they are doing, and have done to our people that gives us the right to do these things".

This is the same logic and it does not excuse evil! What the Nazi's did in Russia was horrific but it does not excuse the conduct of Soviet troops towards German civilians at the end of the war. Making war on civilians is never justified or understandable. If we say that what the Nazi's did was wrong then we must provide a reason as to why it was wrong. If we can excuse terrorism then how is that different than what the Nazi's did? And when I say excuse I do not mean endorse or support terrorism. I mean to find excuses for what they are doing because they do have reasons for their actions. Being pitiful does not justify murder!

And what does Fascism have to do with the state of Israel?



No duty is sacred when it defends facism. No honour is found in marching in lockstep jingoistic nationalism at the expense of humanity.

IMDHO Evil is when we ignore the humanity in others.

Well I basically agree with but am not sure what point you are trying to make exactly.

[Papewaio]

Does that apply to the Palestinians who were dancing in the streets when the 911 attack took place? Or do we find excuses for their behaviour the same way the Nazi's found an excuse for their own?

No excuses here for such behaviour. Punishment should be meted out to the particular criminal for the particular crime. Punishment should not be meted out to a group because of the actions of individuals nor should the grade of punishment be determined by ones status. Everyone should be equal in the eyes of the law.



And what does Fascism have to do with the state of Israel?


Fascism
A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.

As a democracy Israel fails the first test (of being a fascist state) as it is not a dictatorship. For the rest it depends which side of the fence you sit on. I believe that Israel passes them all and some of them better then our own democracies but it could get better grades just like the rest of us. Palestinian leadership is far closer to being fascist but it lacks a few things like an economy to be stringent with...

[Adrian II]

Oh your speaking private money like they used to and may still do for the IRA.That's where the extremists get their money from.
It going to be hard to close down a jewish bingo hall. Separation of church and state you know.Separation shmeparation. Try taking bingo away from elderly Jewish couples and you'll have a real intifada on your hands. ~D

Seriously, look into their funding, cut it off and freeze their assets. That's what we're trying to do with Osama & Co.

[bmolsson]

This thread makes me sad. Regardless who is right and who is wrong, a lot of families on both sides are going to have relatives killed........
Why can't people just get along ??

[Fragony]

This thread makes me sad. Regardless who is right and who is wrong, a lot of families on both sides are going to have relatives killed........
Why can't people just get along ??

What fun would that be?

[sharrukin]

No excuses here for such behaviour. Punishment should be meted out to the particular criminal for the particular crime. Punishment should not be meted out to a group because of the actions of individuals nor should the grade of punishment be determined by ones status. Everyone should be equal in the eyes of the law.



Fascism
A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.

As a democracy Israel fails the first test (of being a fascist state) as it is not a dictatorship. For the rest it depends which side of the fence you sit on. I believe that Israel passes them all and some of them better then our own democracies but it could get better grades just like the rest of us. Palestinian leadership is far closer to being fascist but it lacks a few things like an economy to be stringent with...

As far as this goes I don't think we disagree on much. I would describe the Isreali Government as a Democratic state because I do not believe that being a democracy means you cannot act in a belligerent manner.

Everyone should be equal in the eyes of the law.

What bothers me is that this is so often not done when it is our favourite cause in the spotlight. Many do not hold the Isreali's or the Americans up to standards they should be. By the same token the idea of standards go out the window when it is applied to terrorist groups or 'Fredom Fighters' who just happen to target women and children for a pastime.

[Papewaio]

What bothers me is that this is so often not done when it is our favourite cause in the spotlight. Many do not hold the Isreali's or the Americans up to standards they should be. By the same token the idea of standards go out the window when it is applied to terrorist groups.

We hunt down and annihilate terrorists we don't do that to democracies...

I think what we see with democracies is often the case of if you talk the talk you had best walk the walk. By stating you are a democracy you are accepting a certain benchmark and standard to be judged by.

More often then not terrorists have a different set of standards and benchmarks. They are often too true and sincere to their words unlike most politicians. This does not mean they are not denounced it is just hard to moan about them when they fail their benchmarks with their latest pronouncement to "Wipe out the infidels" because they wiped out a cafe.

So in short we denounce when democracies fail and applaud when terrorists fail.

[sharrukin]

We hunt down and annihilate terrorists we don't do that to democracies...

Really! When has the US, France or Britain conducted any hunt for the PLO/ When has France, Germany or the US ever gone after the IRA? They only get involved if it's their bacon in the frying pan and not until then.



I think what we see with democracies is often the case of if you talk the talk you had best walk the walk. By stating you are a democracy you are accepting a certain benchmark and standard to be judged by.

That seems acceptable as long as it doesn't become a suicide pact. All states have the right and duty to defend themselves and their citizens.



More often then not terrorists have a different set of standards and benchmarks. They are often too true and sincere to their words unlike most politicians. This does not mean they are not denounced it is just hard to moan about them when they fail their benchmarks with their latest pronouncement to "Wipe out the infidels" because they wiped out a cafe.

So in short we denounce when democracies fail and applaud when terrorists fail.

It becomes a little sickening when we bemoan Israel assassinating someone and then the US sends a guided cruise missile to do the same thing. Or when the PLO/Hamas/Islamic Jihad/al-Aksa Martyrs Brigades sets off a bomb killing women and children and we talk as if it is understandable why they would.

[Papewaio]

It becomes a little sickening when we bemoan Israel assassinating someone and then the US sends a guided cruise missile to do the same thing. Or when the PLO/Hamas/Islamic Jihad/al-Aksa Martyrs Brigades sets off a bomb killing women and children and we talk as if it is understandable why they would.

There is two paths for defeating terrorism which should be done in conjunction.

Wipe out the terrorists and where possible do it through normal judicial means.

Create environments which minimise terrrorism.

This requires being 'nice' to the societies and ruthless with the terrorists.

[bmolsson]

Everyone should be equal in the eyes of the law.


A nice thought, but not very practical.

Who do you believe:

1. The raped woman or the alleged rapist?

2. The police officer or the man on parole?

3. The congressman or the home less man?

[Papewaio]

A nice thought, but not very practical.

Who do you believe:

1. The raped woman or the alleged rapist?

2. The police officer or the man on parole?

3. The congressman or the home less man?

1. Woman.
2. Police officer.
3. Homeless man.

[bmolsson]

1. Woman.
2. Police officer.
3. Homeless man.

I thought most home less in Australia was natives...... ~;)