urban cohorts??

[runes]

man, what a ridiculously overpowered/underpriced unit. they should not be able to beat spartans in a head on attacks, ESPECIALLY at almost half the price.

[NihilisticCow]

While they are an obiviously underpriced unit, they don't beat Spartans, or several other elite phalanx units head on. I think you must be using Phalanxes wrongly, be careful not to keep your formations too deep as it then only results in a narrow line of pikes pointing forward, so the Urbans can then then wrap around the units, which is generally how they kill them.

[NihilisticCow]

Another thing to note is that a lot of the Urbans strength comes from their pila, so I tend to use cheap units in front of my phalanxes to take the pila instead of my main line.

[CBR]

They might not be able to defeat Spartans but they can easily kill the best pike units. Just push through the pikes by making the unit run forward right after engaging, then they disrupt the pike formation.


CBR

[Beefy]

i find the best way to beat urbans, is to put all your acher fire into them, me normally playing as greece, take 5 units of creteans for their sheer kick assness!
Put archers on Flaming arrows, hit the urbans with as much as you can, as they advance towards you, have some, pelstats (whatever) infront to absorb the pila send em in to fight em then straight away get you spartans poking them, then hit them from the flank with greek cav, no doubt the greek cav with rout straight away as they are crap, but this is how i normally beat rome players.

Plus spartans get take a pretty substantial hit the rear before routing so playing as greece you will always be overpowerd in the cav section. SO behind you main phalanx line, keep a unit of hoplites, spartans to either fill up a gap in the line OR if theres some cav hitting the back of your line send em in to pin the cav, and kill em all
!

[Lord Preston]

if you look at the stats:

Urbans - 14 attack - 24 defence
Armoured Hoplites - 9 attack (7 with sword) - 22 defence
Sacred Band - 12 attack (10 with sword) - 23 defence

Urbans can beat these units in hand to hand combat but they are not that much better, their stength is in their morale and pila.

Urbans pila are Armour Piercing and have an attack of 18!!! even against other urban units you will get 10 to 20 kills per volley! giving you an instant advantage in numbers, making it easier to flank.

Underpriced? a bit but if you dont use the pila fully they are just right.

p.s. ignore beefy he's been playing to many rubbish players:
1. greek cav will of died against the romans cavalry so wont charge anything!
2. arrows do nothing againt urbans unless you are BEHIND them... but how would you get there if you have no protection against enemy cavalry?

he is correct in his point about getting a poor unit to take the pila, that is the key in beating and holding against urbans

[[seminoles]shadow]

yes beefy i find that it is most dificult to hit urban cohort with archers because of their thick armour...the best way to kill them is with a cavalry attack from behind if they are locked in battle...as for the spartans i find that they are the hardest to kill With urbans because the only way to do it is to flank them and even then it is very tough.

[NihilisticCow]

CBR - I did not know about that... umm... feature...... I've just tested that, and it really is unbelievable... and yes, urbans will then beat Spartan hoplites head on (providing you equalise the cost of urbans to Spartans with upgrades). Has this been raised as a bug to hopefully get fixed in the expansion? Because as it is, it is practically a game-breaker... It just means that no Phalanx faction has a chance against Rome, as these factions rely on their front line holding so you can have a chance against their cavalry (which is so strong anyway). ARGHH.

[CBR]

During the beta testing of 1.2 I was told it was a feature. My guess is that CA doesnt realise how bad for balance it is although I did point out the problems with it back then.

If it hasnt already been mentioned in the bug lists for the expansion maybe you guys should try and convince them.


CBR

[NihilisticCow]

Well how do we go about convincing them? I could post this in the bug list thread, but it is so large that it would probably get lost, and the emphasis there seems to be much more on single player anyway. I have posted here and at the .com about other bugs I have encountered (e.g. replay inconstitencies around connection problems and problems kicking dc'ed people) but I have never been sure anyone from CA has actually read these or not...

[CBR]

Well thats a good question. Maybe make a seperate thread and see if other players pick it up and check it out. If more realise its a problem it might get noticed and discussed.


CBR

[Duke John]

I noticed it too and dismissed it as "cheating" in the same way as swiping in M:TW was abusing a flaw in the game-mechanics. Some people use all the means possible to win a game spoiling it for alot of others. And in that sense this feature should be fixed IMO as it isn't adding any enjoyment, far from it.

[runes]

yea, i'll play games against rome and they'll get 5 or 6 urbans and still have money left over for archers and praetorian cavalry.

the cost of 5 or 6 urbans gets me only about 3 spartans.

again, the price being a problem. no worries if 1 spartan can take 1 urban, but for the price, you can get more urbans than spartans and have room left over for other things.

my problem with uber units (and higher denarii battles in general) is that light infantry/light units have no use. i like to build my armies off of lighter unitts, but i find that in multiplayer, "light" units really have no place or no use, aside from using then en masse.

oh well, i've been fiddling and testing with urbans vs other units of the same price, and i figure urbans should cost around 1000-1100.

[runes]

well, i just managed to do a few tests, and i guess i realized it's a better idea to go with one or two cheaper phalanxes, and outnumber/manouvre the urbans, than a few really good phalanxes and get killed in head on.

did some tests with 900 denarii (basically the price of one urban)

1 urban, vs, 2pikes, 1 levy pike

came out on top, after some fidgeting and trying some formations. Still, if i mess up, or they manage to get someone behind me, im toast.

i then increased the denarii relatively, (2 urbans, 4pikes, 2 levy) etc, and had much the same results, although again, this control test isnt perfect, as there are other factors (archers, praetorian cav)

i also did an archery vs urban test


i put a big huge line of armoured hoplites (just so i had as much time as possible to shoot with my creans) and 5 or cretans with 3 bronze chevrons, vs 3 urbans. By the time the urbans got to my front lines, i had reduce about 20 or so men in one unit, and 12-15 in another. (i found that firing normal arrows works best, while it doesnt have the armour bonus, more hit their target and they fire faster) i also used my cretans to fire on the routing urbans, so i wouldnt have to worry about them coming back.

but i guess the only real way to try is by playing online!

[Puzz3D]

CBR - I did not know about that... umm... feature...... I've just tested that, and it really is unbelievable... and yes, urbans will then beat Spartan hoplites head on (providing you equalise the cost of urbans to Spartans with upgrades). Has this been raised as a bug to hopefully get fixed in the expansion? Because as it is, it is practically a game-breaker... It just means that no Phalanx faction has a chance against Rome, as these factions rely on their front line holding so you can have a chance against their cavalry (which is so strong anyway). ARGHH.
CBR and I tried for a couple of months during the v1.2 beta to find a workaround for the weak performance of the phalanx vs cavalry and infantry, but we were unsuccessful. In the end, the only change CA made was to increase the cost of cataphracts. After v1.2 was released, CBR stopped playing RTW. I continued for a while, but eventually gave up as well.

If you want to try a total war game that actually is rock, paper, scissors and doesn't have overpowered units try Samurai Wars for STWmod for MTW/VI v2.01. The firing rate of archers and guns is fast enough that it's not an advantage to use the stop/start reload exploit as it is with xbows. There are no xbows in Samurai Wars. Play at a money level of 10k per player.

[Beefy]

p.s. ignore beefy he's been playing to many rubbish players:


yeh i have played you too many times ~D

I use archers against the best unit of the field. (unless emeny arhcers are present)

Having 180 flaming arrows hitting a unit, does lower moral, and also gets a few kills, so i use em against the strongest enemy unit. Why waste ammo on crappy weak units?

[runes]

what isn the stop/start reload exploit?

[Marquis of Roland]

hmmm.....I recently fought double gold chevron urban cohorts against silver shield pikemen with double silver (or triple silver?) chevrons.

I maneuvered my phalanx line to force them to attack frontally. I had silver shield legions protecting the flanks. My cavalry ran off to kill their cavalry.

The pilas hurt bad, especially on huge. 20+ kills a volley sounds about right.

Urbans still could not break the phalanx. They didn't try the rushing through phalanx tactic though. However, they basically tried to wrap around like they usually do, and wiped out my legionaires, but was left with so few men (less than 10) because of the pikes that they routed.

So pretty much nothing short of elephants can break through an elite pike phalanx??? I don't play MP too much.......

[Puzz3D]

what isn the stop/start reload exploit?
In MTW and MTW/VI, you can save fatigue by switching off fire-at-will between volleys on ranged units. It's effective with xbows and arbalasts because of their long reload time. The unit will be shown as standing and will only incur the lower fatigue rate for standing, but it will actually still be reloading. Then just before the unit has completed the 15 second reload cycle turn fire-at-will back on. You'll only save a small amount of fatigue each reload cycle, but in the later part of a long shootout it has dramatic affect on the kills per volley. CA was advised of this problem, but never fixed it.

[runes]

cool, so i did a bit more testing, and i do believe urbans should be in the 1000 range.

however, i did lose a few battles today as rome (i did the urban/archer/praetorian cav) up against carthage, with sacred band phalx, sacred band cav. and his slingers ripped me apart, i didnt know they were so useful, after a few volleys 4 archer aux units were down to like 10 men each

so yea, my urbans stuck it out for a while,. but were just overwhelmed. i think i should have bought more units rahter than upgraded. i routed easily his sacred band phalx though, but it was when i went against the spartans than i had problems, added to it the elephants. So i think greece and macedon are maybe the best anti-rome units.


i think i was just bothered because of any barbarians ineffectiveness to take down heavier units. that's why i can't wait for EB!

[NihilisticCow]

Marquis of Roland - The problem we have mentioned is the rush through exploit against Phalanxes, not their normal use. Without this exploit, Phalanxes can hold any non phalanx infantry troops at bay if attacked from the front (which should be correct). If you do not see how bad this is, here (http://www.totalwar.org/Downloads/Rtw_Uploads/Replay/Urban_Exploit.zip) is a replay using this of Urbans versus Spartans against the AI. The urbans have been given Silver weapons and armour to equalise the cost.
Never use this online; it is effectively cheating.


Runes - IMHO, Britannia is one of the most effective factions against Rome; Head Hurlers massacre and rout Urbans (providing there's a few Chosen Swordsmen in front to block) and Heavy Chariots are more than capable of killing their cavalry as are Light Chariots their archers.

[Lord Preston]

ermmm i dunno where to start......


so yea, my urbans stuck it out for a while,. but were just overwhelmed. i think i should have bought more units rahter than upgraded. i routed easily his sacred band phalx though, but it was when i went against the spartans than i had problems, added to it the elephants.

carthage doesn't have spartans, but greece does.
greece doesn't have elephants, but carthage does.

so who were you facing again? sounds like a bit of a ficticous story to me...

when facing phalanx i find numbers are better than upgrading, more numbers allows you to flank them, if you dont have enough units to get some around the flank you can't beat a phalanx.


So i think greece and macedon are maybe the best anti-rome units.

greece have no cavalry so you need to be good at preventing flanking.

macedon?!?!? they dont have elephants and they are a weaker phalanx faction than seleucid or carthage.

carthage and seleucid have elephants. seleucid also has AP cataphracts.


i think i was just bothered because of any barbarians ineffectiveness to take down heavier units. that's why i can't wait for EB!

have you tried using chariots? head hurlers? Chosen Axemen (all have Armour Piercing weapons!) to just name a few good barbarian units. you cant use them the same way as rome or carthage but they ARE effective when used right. i've beat many good players using barbarian factions.

Rome is a GOOD factions and Urbans are one of the BEST melee units but if you play games in the region of 12.5K or less you will not face many more than 6 or 7 urbans. and if they have that many they will be weak in archers and cavalry.

[runes]

"so who were you facing again? sounds like a bit of a ficticous story to me... "

playing against carthage and rome.


"macedon?!?!? they dont have elephants and they are a weaker phalanx faction than seleucid or carthage."

macedon has pikes, AND companions. in tests, both single and multi, i've found pikes to be extremely effective, and sometimes more effective than regular phalanxes when going against urbans

"i've beat many good players using barbarian factions. "

really? i've never lost to anyone using barbarians.

[NihilisticCow]

runes - have you actually tried what Preston and I have suggested? Just because not many players use Barbarian factions (and even fewer know how to use them) doesn't make them bad.

Germania easily defeats Rome when fighting in forests.
Britannia can defeat Rome anywhere.
Scythia in capable hands is also more than capable of defeating Rome.

Yes factions like Gaul and Spain have more trouble, but the Barbarian factions I mentioned are more than capable of taking on Rome and winning.

And Macedon has a weaker Phalanx than Carthage and Companions just are not good compared with Praetorian Cav, Cataphracts, Sacred Band Cavalry etc. Their pikes may be less vulnerable to pila due to their larger numbers, but you should deal with the pila separately, they otherwise they have no other real advantage.

[Marquis of Roland]

So the rush through tactic is considered cheating, gotcha.

[Lord Preston]

OK..... things get even weirder...

edit: can't be bothered am trying to work out random none related points, will try to get back on topic after this.

please read my posts carefully.

please learn what units fight for which factions or will you please make your points make sense and are correctly related.

example. you say you were fighting carthage and rome... and had no problems till you foughts spartans.... who are greek??? was that a different battle? if so what was your point about fighting rome + carthage???

nothing you have posted has made sence i try to ask reasonable questions to figure out what was really going on but i get more randomness?!?

[runes]

edit: please lear to read properly.

you'll cleary see it says i played AS rome against carthage and greece.



anyway, i'll try the Britons in MP, i hadn't ever considered them, i had only used them a few times even in custom battles, nothing of theirs really appealed to me.


this isn't a debate of tactics, as almost any unit can beat any other unit, with good tactics, but rather a test to see how badly a) urbans should be nerfed or b) what their apporximate denarii value SHOULD be.

[Lord Preston]

i admit i did miss read your first post about rome/greece/carthage but your answer to "who were you fighting?"


playing against carthage and rome.
didn't help clear it up cos thats some funny looking greece there.


what was your ally doing by the way for you to have to beat carthage then have to fight spartans? i would guess that after fighting sacred band and then moving to fight spartans your urbans would be tired or very tired.... giving spartans more of an advantage. the only way to kill spartans is to outnumber them, surround them and charge anything into the back of them.


A major point that hasn't been mentioned yet is what unit size were you playing at? I find phalanx units on anything LESS THAN large are too easy to beat. There lines are short, they lose depth, and smaller units make it easier to manouver around them. maybe if you play on large you would find phalanxs more effective against rome.


i would recommend using a cheap rubbish unit to try and get them to throw pila at first as you need your head hurlers to throw as many heads as they can which is about 3 times as many pila that urbans have. while doing that you need to flank with your swordsman, if the urbans turn to face the swordsmen they will open there flanks to the HH. (i'd recommend putting gold armour onto your HH so archers to murder them) and HH have good morale and are a decent flanking unit. or pinning unit while your chosen swordsmen flank. you need as many heavy chariots as you think your opponent has cav. a couple of light chariots to take out archers.

[runes]

yea, did some more on/offline testing, britons are very good indeed. woad warriors are nice for ambushes, if you can manage to move them unseen then their high attack and low cost makes them good (and no too worrysome if they rout)

however, ultimately, i think urbans should be about 1010 denarii. 980 at the least.

i tried several combinations of units

and i found that for the price, (860 for an urban) not even 2 axemen could be bought. However, i did find that Chosen Axemen + Skirmisher Band (with 2 weapon upgrades, came to 860) was quite useful. This was tested on several levels of AI, and increased relatively the sizes (2 urbavs vs two axe/2 skirms, 5 urbs vs 5 axe/5 skirms) and i won all the battles, although the ai really lacked proper battle strategy. But i figured this combination was not entirely useful when playing online, as cavalry and archers play a role, the axemen would be ripped apart by archers, and easily ridden down with cavalry, even in the woods. Online today, some urbans routed a 2-sided charge from Night Raiders (i'm guessing here that using the charge for barbarians is best, as it makes most use of their high attack/low defense) however, i had some cavalry lying around and crushed the urbans as they were chasing the raiders down. so it all worked out. some warcrying chosen axemen nearby helped to rally the fleeing raiders.


I found that from the front/sides/rear and generally 3/4 of the time the urbans won against two axemen (total comes to 900 vs the 860 for urbans) even often in forests. So this is why i think the total should be pushed to at least 900

Many of you have probably seen even weak units rout roman and greek cavalry in battle sometimes, so i'm going to see how effective urbans (given their armour and shields, as well as morale) are against slightly stronger cavalry. Maybe i'll try barbarian mercenaries, as they are strong, but generally don't last long, as well as "medium" cavalry- light lancers.

I think i'll also try out some point-for-point testing of factions like spain and dacia, which i haven't seemed to find much use for yet.


again, this test isn't really out to go anywhere or prove anything. but might be helpful in anyone who's looking to mod/patch/whatever.

[Lord Preston]

some warcrying chosen axemen nearby helped to rally the fleeing raiders.

warcry has nothing to do with other units morale from what i have read, it only adds to there attack. screeching/chanting (women/druids) however do affect morale



I found that from the front/sides/rear and generally 3/4 of the time the urbans won against two axemen (total comes to 900 vs the 860 for urbans) even often in forests. So this is why i think the total should be pushed to at least 900

axemen are NOTHING compaired to chosen axemen, chosens are armour piercing which normal axemen are not. against roman armour you need chosen axemen to break through there armour. they also have more morale then normal axemen.



Many of you have probably seen even weak units rout roman and greek cavalry in battle sometimes, so i'm going to see how effective urbans (given their armour and shields, as well as morale) are against slightly stronger cavalry. Maybe i'll try barbarian mercenaries, as they are strong, but generally don't last long, as well as "medium" cavalry- light lancers.
gothic cav have the highest attack of all cavalry... why use barbarian marcenaries who suck? also check out the topics in singleplayer about how the charge bonus is screwed up.... making light lancers and mac cav (and other charge cav) poorer than they should be (hence mac as a faction is weaker)



I think i'll also try out some point-for-point testing of factions like spain and dacia, which i haven't seemed to find much use for yet.

those factions are poor. spain has bull warriors (urbans with 2HP!!!! but less discipline) but thats it, cav/archers suck.

dacia, against rome??? i doubt it, dacia is a weak faction. the best unit they have is proberly chosen archers.... archers vs urbans armour+shield isn't going to work


well if your looking for realism urbans shouldn't even be in the game, yes they existed but were very rare, maybe factor alone should make them more expensive, or you should only be allowed to pick 1 of them. i think if CA had placed limits on what you could pick depending on how common/rare they are that would of been a great feature. maybe just having it as a tick box option...

im also thinking that you are forgetting about prat cav who are unreasonably good, this makes the urbans job much easier as you will usually win a cavalry battle and allow you to flank. IF there cav were weaker then your urbans would get flanked much more. so i think the major problem is in there cavalry and not just the cost of urbans.

[runes]

"warcry has nothing to do with other units morale from what i have read, it only adds to there attack. screeching/chanting (women/druids) however do affect morale"

i guess it was just luck.

"axemen are NOTHING compaired to chosen axemen, chosens are armour piercing which normal axemen are not. against roman armour you need chosen axemen to break through there armour. they also have more morale then normal axemen."

im pretty sure ALL axes are armour piercing (even cicillian pirates' axes)

"those factions are poor. spain has bull warriors (urbans with 2HP!!!! but less discipline) but thats it, cav/archers suck."

i don't play in high denarii games, i like games where weaker and light units are all important. i've won battles with dacia and spain and lost battles against those two.

[Lord Preston]

they probably just ran far enough from the battle to recover.

--------------------

this i am almost positive on, without going through the games files:
all melee units that have javelins are AP. but their melee attack will be normal.

pirates AP attack is their javelin not their melee.

axemen do NOT have AP attack. Chosen axemen are the only infantry to have a AP melee attack in the game.

EDIT - i've checked the file and pirates AP attack is NOT there melee (axe).
--------------------

in low money games the barbarians do indeed become useful. the poor morale of there infantry are negated due to the opposition having to bring units such as principles and iberian infantry. also not being able to afford there heavy cavalry allows your light cav to become useful.

[runes]

damn. i thought axes were counted as AP, so night raiders/pirates and such were all ap. shitty.


oh well. yet another problem with rtw...

[Mongoose]

...that can be moded ~:)

[Squirrel_of_hatred]

There can be no doubt that urban cohorts are overpowered and they will beat spartans 1v1 on an open field in normal circimstances

[Slug For A Butt]

There can be no doubt that urban cohorts are overpowered and they will beat spartans 1v1 on an open field in normal circimstances

There can be no doubt that you are wrong about this!
Test this before you post. I have just tested many times, and as long as your spartans are only three deep, they absolutely anihilate urbans with only five to ten spartans suffering.
Fact.