View Full Version : FBI Records Cite Quran Abuse Allegations after all
Hurin_Rules
05-25-2005, 22:56
FBI Records Cite Quran Abuse Allegations
AP - 53 minutes ago
WASHINGTON - Terror suspects at the Guantanamo Bay prison told U.S. interrogators as early as April 2002, just four months after the first detainees arrived, that military guards abused them and desecrated the Quran, declassified FBI records say. "Their behavior is bad," one detainee is quoted as saying of his guards during an interrogation by an FBI special agent in July 2002. "About five months ago the guards beat the detainees. They flushed a Quran in the toilet."
http://news.yahoo.com/fc/World/Guantanamo_Detainees
Seems to be a developing story. I'll post more when it appears.
Do note, however, that all this proves is that the FBI did report that allegations were made; the FBI did not say they were true.
PanzerJaeger
05-25-2005, 23:17
Also note that AQ is trained to claim abuse and other inflammatory activities done by their captors.
Proletariat
05-26-2005, 01:11
Even if they are true, who cares? ----------------
Proletariat
05-26-2005, 01:14
Erm, suppose I should explain before I get banned.
These people have to have the most fragile little egos in the history of mankind.
This is merely the nature of fundamentalism. These Muslim fundamentalists merely join the long line of others throughout history, including the Roman emperors, the Roman Catholic Church, the Puritans, Nazi Germany, Stalinist Russia, Maoist China, and modern-day fundamentalist Christians (to an extent) in their iconification of certain "sacred" material things, confusing such things with the truly sacred. They all share a similar trait: they are all materialists masquerading as spiritual movements. A truly spiritual understanding would never confuse a physical thing, (a book, a place, a flag) for something truly sacred. Fundamentalists always end up insisting on just that, and then demanding everyone else do so as well. Religions, having lost their connections with the truly sacred, usually end up, at some point, grabbing onto something material and declaring it sacred. That's OK, as far as it goes. If people want to believe certain things, fine. The real problem arises when these same religious materialists take the next step and succeed in assuming temporal power. Then we have disaster.
Proletariat
05-26-2005, 01:23
The nail (http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2005/05/19/why_islam_is_disrespected/) on the head.
the real desecration of Islam is not what some interrogator in Guantanamo might have done to the Koran. It is what totalitarian Muslim zealots have been doing to innocent human beings in the name of Islam. It is 9/11 and Beslan and Bali and Daniel Pearl and the USS Cole. It is trains in Madrid and schoolbuses in Israel and an ''insurgency" in Iraq that slaughters Muslims as they pray and vote and line up for work. It is Hamas and Al Qaeda and sermons filled with infidel-hatred and exhortations to ''martyrdom."
Leet Eriksson
05-26-2005, 01:24
Even if they are true, who cares? The Quran should be printed on toilet paper at Gitmo.
I do, every muslim should stand up for his religion. Why do they even give these detainess a quran to begin with? just so events like these could surface?
On another note, printing a quran does not only offend these people, but a large chunk of muslims worldwide, becuase it is preceived as an attempt to insult Islam instead of fighting the mindset the terrorists follow.
Proletariat
05-26-2005, 01:27
I do, every muslim should stand up for his religion. Why do they even give these detainess a quran to begin with? just so events like these could surface?
Why don't you think that would also be construed as some blasphemous insult?
For fairness and balance, I think the Bible and US flag can be printed on tp, too. It'd be a best seller in San Francisco and college campuses all through my country.
Gawain of Orkeny
05-26-2005, 01:36
Palestinians used Bible
as toilet paper
Muslims' desecration of holy book received little notice
Posted: May 18, 2005
1:00 a.m. Eastern
© 2005 WorldNetDaily.com
While Muslims have responded with deadly outrage to the now-retracted report by Newsweek of alleged Quran desecration by U.S. interrogators, there was little outcry three years ago when Islamic terrorists holed up in Bethlehem's Church of the Nativity reportedly used the Bible as toilet paper.
Catholic priests in the church marking the spot where Jesus was believed to have been born said that during the five-week siege, Palestinians tore up some Bibles for toilet paper and removed many valuable sacramental objects, according to a May 15, 2002, report by the Washington Times.
Newsweek is under fire for a report in its May 9 edition that sparked protests and rioting across the Muslim world resulting in 17 dead, scores injured, relief buildings burned down and a setback to years of coalition-building against terrorists.
Newsweek's Periscope column written by Michael Isikoff and John Barry included a brief item alleging U.S. military investigators at the Guantanamo Bay prison found evidence that interrogators placed copies of the Quran down the toilet in an effort to get prisoners to talk.
Despite Newsweek's retraction, the outrage in the Muslim world continues.
In Saudi Arabia yesterday, the country's top religious authority, Grand Mufti Adul-Aziz al-Sheik, condemned the alleged desecration and called for an investigation "to alleviate the sorrow that befell Muslims."
"We condemn and denounce this criminal act against Muslims' most sacred item," al-Sheik said.
Afghanistan's government said Newsweek should be held responsible for damages caused by the demonstrations, and Pakistan said the magazine's apology and retraction were "not enough."
In contrast, during the 2002 church siege, the muted complaints of Christians under the Muslim-dominated Palestinian Authority gained little traction.
The Palestinian gunmen, members of Yasser Arafat's Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, seized church stockpiles of food and "ate like greedy monsters" until the food ran out, while more than 150 civilians went hungry, the Washington Times report said.
The indulgence lasted about two weeks into the 39-day siege, when the food and drink ran out, according to an account by four Greek Orthodox priests trapped inside. A church helper told the Times the quantity of food consumed by the gunmen in the first 15 days should have lasted six months.
Angry Orthodox priests showed reporters empty bottles of whiskey, champagne, vodka, cognac and French wine on the floor along with hundreds of cigarette butts.
"They should be ashamed of themselves. They acted like animals, like greedy monsters. Come, I will show you more," said one priest, who declined to give his name.
Computers were taken apart and a television set dismantled for use as a hiding place for weapons.
"You can see what repayment we got for 'hosting' these so-called guests," said Archbishop Ironius, according to the Times report.
No protests
US flags mounted in dog droppings in German city
Expatica ^ | January 14, 2005 | Expatica
Posted on 01/14/2005 8:33:23 PM PST by Land_of_Lincoln_John
BAYREUTH - Baffled authorities in southern Germany have issued an alert concerning unknown persons who have been sticking small US flags into piles of dog droppings in public parks in Bayreuth.
"This has been going on for about a year now, and there must be 2,000 to 3,000 piles of excrement that have been thusly 'adorned' during that time," said Bayreuth parks administrator Josef Oettl.
The sporadic series of incidents originally was thought to be some sort of protest against the US-led invasion of Iraq. And when it continued it was thought to be a protest against President George W. Bush's campaign for re-election.
Bayreuth police say they are completely baffled.
"We have sent out extra patrols to try to catch whoever is doing this in the act," said police spokesman Reiner Kuechler. "But frankly, we don't know what we would do if we caught them red- white- and-blue handed."
Legal experts agreed, saying there is no law against using faeces as a flag stand and the federal constitution is vague on the issue.
No protests
And these things really happened.
Papewaio
05-26-2005, 01:39
Even if they are true, who cares? The Quran should be printed on toilet paper at Gitmo.
What it be okay if the American Flag was printed on toilet paper?
Proletariat
05-26-2005, 01:40
What it be okay if the American Flag was printed on toilet paper?
Yes. See post #7.
Papewaio
05-26-2005, 01:44
I can't count above 5 as my other hand is using the mouse...
Seems a fair view. Is there any scared cows you would get offended by having on toilet paper?
Proletariat
05-26-2005, 01:51
Well, it's the Sacred Cows themselves, (or the way the came about) that are(is) the problem.
Erm, suppose I should explain before I get banned.
These people have to have the most fragile little egos in the history of mankind.
The Quran is the most sacred thing to the muslims, up to a level we probably cannot understand. Flushing parts of it is the biggest humiliation there is, because it is their everything. You have to be carefull with that, I believe it was Churchil who said 'if you have to kill a man it you may as well be polite'. It aren't just the allah-hooligans that are angry, also the moderate muslim intellectuals are furious because of this. I think that says something.
AntiochusIII
05-26-2005, 04:37
The rage felt by the more moderate Muslims can be identified at against what the act (if done) intends and symbolize rather than the act itself.
Radicals are angry at everything.
Proletariat's reasoning is fine *as long as* the intend is not to insult and inflame. Clearly most actions of this kind carries such offensive intends with it.
Back to topic: nobody should be surprised of any kind of torture coming out of a political prison.
Well, I remember a few young muslim immigrants playing football with the flowers we put at the WW2 monukment to honour the dead, and I remember how furious I was. Sure it are just flowers, they grow everywhere, but the insult is much much more. You cannot just flush someones most fundamental believes through the toilet, it is basicly saying 'you are nothing'. How would you feel if someone used your mothers fotoalbum as toilet paper?
From the Stonecutters episode on The Simpsons
http://tim.rawle.org/simpsons/quiz/images/quiz4pics/q7.gif
Homer uses it to wipe his mouth and hands after eating ribs
ichi :bow:
Gawain of Orkeny
05-26-2005, 05:49
The Quran is the most sacred thing to the muslims, up to a level we probably cannot understand. Flushing parts of it is the biggest humiliation there is, because it is their everything. You have to be carefull with that
Must I remind you that this whole thing started with a Muslim flushing a Koran down the tube?
PanzerJaeger
05-26-2005, 05:51
Where did you come up with that lol?
You would be a true Simpsons jedi if you could get the song they sing in that episode. If i remember correctly it was very funny.
Must I remind you that this whole thing started with a Muslim flushing a Koran down the tube?
Didn't know that.
Proletariat
05-26-2005, 12:31
Where did you come up with that lol?
You would be a true Simpsons jedi if you could get the song they sing in that episode. If i remember correctly it was very funny.
Who keeps the metric system down, who rigs every Oscar night, we do! We do!
Something like that, anyway.
It aren't just the allah-hooligans that are angry, also the moderate muslim intellectuals are furious because of this. I think that says something.
I see what you're saying completely. Being angry or offended is one thing. I'd probably be at the least angry if someone used my Mother's tombstone as a football. But I sure as hell wouldn't kill anyone over it.
Even if they are true, who cares?
1.2bn people, give or take.
English assassin
05-26-2005, 14:51
Sorry to desecrate a serious thread for the moment but can I really be the only person who finds the idea of some shadowy german sticking 2-3000 little american flags into dog poo over the course of a year extremely amusing?
You have to respect the German work ethic. If that had been a Brit they would have done about 25 and then given up and had a cup of tea.
As for the Quran incident, although it would be very bad, if it took place, AII's post concerning torture and murder in US jails in Afganistan was rather more serious. however the fundamentalists may feel about a book, people being tortured to death by the US military must be the main story?
Ser Clegane
05-26-2005, 15:27
Sorry to desecrate a serious thread for the moment but can I really be the only person who finds the idea of some shadowy german sticking 2-3000 little american flags into dog poo over the course of a year extremely amusing?
It seems we have some people who are obsessed with marking dog poo living in our country. At the place were I lived a couple of years ago there was obviously some person in the neighbourhood who used colored chalk to draw little circles around any dog droppings on the sidewalk.
Some people have strange hobbies...
Sorry to desecrate a serious thread for the moment but can I really be the only person who finds the idea of some shadowy german sticking 2-3000 little american flags into dog poo over the course of a year extremely amusing?
I find it extremely amusing...
Not for political reasons or even the visage of it, but because a similar thing was fairly popular here in Denmark when I was a child.
Now the background is that at child birthdays the cake is normally adorned with a forest of little Danish paperflags on toothpicks (best description I could give). So the little flag is a symbol of cake and birthdays. Thus the image of a dogpoo with such a flag in it conjures a lot of amusement because of it's duality.
To an extent I sideline it with the burning dogpoo... ~D
Childish and a bit sick, but certainly great fun.
Tribesman
05-26-2005, 19:39
Also note that AQ is trained to claim abuse and other inflammatory activities done by their captors.
Even if that is true , how does that explain the allegations from former detainees who are not part of Al-Qaida ?
Proletariat
05-26-2005, 23:44
I am an aetheist from a Christian background and yet somehow I find the above to be the most offensive thing I've read in the Backroom for a long time.
And no mention of the same being said for Bibles and American flags.
And no mention of the same being said for Bibles and American flags.
Because no other poster in this thread has made any offensive remarks about these things.
The Quran is a miracle in Islam, the Quran is like Jesus in book form. How would people react if Jesus was flushed down the toliet?
Proletariat
05-27-2005, 00:33
The Quran is a miracle in Islam, the Quran is like Jesus in book form. How would people react if Jesus was flushed down the toliet?
Each physical copy of the book printed is a miracle? It's not the message that's contained within? Is the message meaningless without the paper and binding?
Gawain of Orkeny
05-27-2005, 00:34
And whats the bible? It seem nothing more than toilet paper to some Muslims. Of copurse its always fair game on christianity but heaven forbid you even hint at anything bad about Muslims.
Proletariat
05-27-2005, 00:38
The Quran is a miracle in Islam, the Quran is like Jesus in book form. How would people react if Jesus was flushed down the toliet?
Uhm, they Crucified Jesus. And people went on and still held dear his message of salvation.
Tribesman
05-27-2005, 00:39
How would people react if Jesus was flushed down the toliet?
It would be OK because we know he will rise again , though having the pipe blocked for three days might be a little inconvenient .
Adrian II
05-27-2005, 00:39
Uhm, they Crucified Jesus. And people went on and still held dear his message of salvation.But the Jews were made to suffer rather more than Newsweek for that Crucifixion..
Proletariat
05-27-2005, 00:51
Be nice if they could learn from that page in history, like some cultures have.
English assassin
05-27-2005, 12:06
How would people react if Jesus was flushed down the toliet?
It would be OK because we know he will rise again , though having the pipe blocked for three days might be a little inconvenient .
ROFLOL.
Now I have to explain to my trainee exactly what it was I found hysterically funny in the agreement I am "reviewing"
Franconicus
05-27-2005, 13:07
Erm, suppose I should explain before I get banned.
These people have to have the most fragile little egos in the history of mankind.
This is merely the nature of fundamentalism. These Muslim fundamentalists merely join the long line of others throughout history, including the Roman emperors, the Roman Catholic Church, the Puritans, Nazi Germany, Stalinist Russia, Maoist China, and modern-day fundamentalist Christians (to an extent) in their iconification of certain "sacred" material things, confusing such things with the truly sacred. They all share a similar trait: they are all materialists masquerading as spiritual movements. A truly spiritual understanding would never confuse a physical thing, (a book, a place, a flag) for something truly sacred. Fundamentalists always end up insisting on just that, and then demanding everyone else do so as well. Religions, having lost their connections with the truly sacred, usually end up, at some point, grabbing onto something material and declaring it sacred. That's OK, as far as it goes. If people want to believe certain things, fine. The real problem arises when these same religious materialists take the next step and succeed in assuming temporal power. Then we have disaster.
1. You list a couple of organisations. What they all have in common (except modern .. Christians) is that they were practising torture (did not help them much!) Were the Nazis focused on holy material things?
2. It does not matter much what the moslem fundamenals think. It matters what the rest of the muslems think. Will they be willing to support terror or will they be willing to support the war against it? If US soldiers act against the quran that does not help. It also matters what the US people is doing, if it is true. Will they be saying: It does not matter, because it is good for our national interests. Or: Let us not talk about it. It could do damage to our troops?
3. After the proven cases of torture in that prison in Iraq and the weak reaction from the US government it seems to be possible that these kind of thinks may happen. And that is bad enough.
Steppe Merc
05-27-2005, 13:12
1. You list a couple of organisations. What they all have in common (except modern .. Christians) is that they were practising torture (did not help them much!) Were the Nazis focused on holy material things?
Yup. See the thread in the Monastary called "Were Nazis really looking for Devlish things".
Franconicus
05-27-2005, 13:39
Yup. See the thread in the Monastary called "Were Nazis really looking for Devlish things".
That were just a couple of idiots, not the main idiology!
The Quran is a miracle in Islam, the Quran is like Jesus in book form. How would people react if Jesus was flushed down the toliet?
How would Catholics react if the crucifix was dunked in urine? ...Oh wait, that was already done- and we were told that it was art and free expression. Forget how sacred a thing the Crucifixion is to us- apparently Catholicism doesn't get the kid gloves the way some other religions do. :dizzy2:
Adrian II
05-27-2005, 16:26
How would Catholics react if the crucifix was dunked in urine? ...Oh wait, that was already done- and we were told that it was art and free expression. Forget how sacred a thing the Crucifixion is to us- apparently Catholicism doesn't get the kid gloves the way some other religions do. :dizzy2:You mean you still don't get it?
Just imagine that some other country had conquered the U.S., that it was holding Americans prisoner and forcing them to defecate on the U.S. flag. Would Americans protest? Of course they would.
Gawain of Orkeny
05-27-2005, 16:36
You mean you still don't get it?
Just imagine that some other country had conquered the U.S., that it was holding Americans prisoner and forcing them to defecate on the U.S. flag. Would Americans protest? Of course they would.
Your the one who still doesnt get it. Is Islam a nation now and the Koran their flag? Have we conquered Islam and forced prisoners to defecate on the Koran? It seems that Palestinians have used the holy bible as toilet paper though and barely a wimper from christains. Would we protest. Most likely. Would we run wild in the streets killing people? I doubt it.
Adrian II
05-27-2005, 16:44
Your the one who still doesnt get it. Is Islam a nation now and the Koran their flag?You're getting warmer.
Gawain of Orkeny
05-27-2005, 16:50
To bad your getting colder. ~;)
It seems that Palestinians have used the holy bible as toilet paper though and barely a wimper from christains.
From the story you cited before, some Palestinians were under siege in a church. My inference was that if they did what you say, it was a case of "needs must". It sounds like a distasteful case of when you gotta go, you gotta go. It does not sound like any attempt to insult Christians (their beef being with Jews, right?); still less break them under interrogation.
But anyway, I think part of the difference is that we expect better of US military guards working by the book than terrorists/freedom fighters under siege.
Taffy_is_a_Taff
05-27-2005, 19:43
Having used newspaper as toilet paper before I've got to say that paper tends to be crap for wiping, eh, crap off your arse unless it is the specially made sort.
If, heaven forbid, I was besieged in a church and needed to wipe I think I'd choose something more absorbent and softer than the pages of the Bible, like cloth (easily found on furnishings, the old T-shirt you happen to be wearing for this fight etc.). I, personally, feel that the wiping with Bible pages was a deliberate insult. Plenty of other material would have been at hand and I bet plenty of paper would have been available in the forms of flyers, leaflets etc. for Christian pilgrims.
I think there's also a bit of a beef between Arab Christians and Muslims seeing as so many Arab Christians have been granted refugee status in other countries.
Gawain of Orkeny
05-27-2005, 21:49
From the story you cited before, some Palestinians were under siege in a church. My inference was that if they did what you say, it was a case of "needs must". It sounds like a distasteful case of when you gotta go, you gotta go. It does not sound like any attempt to insult Christians (their beef being with Jews, right?); still less break them under interrogation.
Excuse me they took over the church by force and no one else had to use the bible as toilet paper. Im sure the bible was the only rag lying about LOL.
Tribesman
05-27-2005, 22:17
Excuse me they took over the church by force and no one else had to use the bible as toilet paper. Im sure the bible was the only rag lying about LOL.
Are you making all this up as usual Gawain ?
I can find no mentions from any of the priests monks or nuns present during the siege concerning the bible being used as toilet paper , or from any of the parishoners who helped with the cleanup .
BTW they sought refuge in a holy sanctuary , not took it over by force , next you are going to say that they took hostages and set fire to the place , I bet it was really the Palestinians who killed the priest and the bell-ringer ~D ~D
It seems you swallow too much propoganda .
There are some good statements from the Vatican and the other churches that share custody of the Nativity site , but I don't think you will like them ~;) Hey there is a lovely bit in the sermon by the Patriach from the first Mass held after the end of the siege , but you definately won't like that , you wouldn't believe how he describes Israels actions and desecrations ~D ~D ~D ~D
KukriKhan
05-27-2005, 22:32
Official reminder to all:
Post to the Topic/Post, not the Post-er.
Think twice, and a third time, before using the word "you".
Thank you. Please carry on. :bow:
Gawain of Orkeny
05-27-2005, 22:50
Are you making all this up as usual Gawain ?
I can find no mentions from any of the priests monks or nuns present during the siege concerning the bible being used as toilet paper , or from any of the parishoners who helped with the cleanup .
BTW they sought refuge in a holy sanctuary , not took it over by force , next you are going to say that they took hostages and set fire to the place , I bet it was really the Palestinians who killed the priest and the bell-ringer
It seems you swallow too much propoganda .
Right ~:confused:
CHURCH OF THE NATIVITY
What Happened at the Church of the Nativity in April 2002?
Church of the Nativity, Bethlehem
Church of the Nativity, Bethlehem
On April 2, 2002 armed Palestinian Arab terrorists forced their way into the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem, one of Christianity's most sacred sites, the birthplace of Christ. In the midst of over 200 nuns and priests, they sought refuge from Operation Defensive Shield, the Israel Defense Forces action against suicide bombing activity originating from West Bank locations. For 38 days, until May 10, 2002, the world watched as the gunmen refused to surrender their positions inside the Church. Only Israeli restraint and respect for the Christian shrine prevented the Palestinian desecration from turning into its destruction.
Why was the IDF in Bethlehem at the time? In December, 1995, Israel had turned over control of Bethlehem to the Palestinian Authority, but the PA failed to quell terrorist activities. Quite the contrary; terrorism never stopped and after September 2000, increased dramatically with the al-Aqsa Intifada. In February and March, 2002, more than two dozen Israelis had died in five separate incidents of murder, bombings and gunfire within Israel and the territories, with over six dozen injured. In each case, the Fatah in Bethlehem claimed responsibility for the deaths.
In the first days of April 2002, an IDF Paratroop Brigade moved into the area to seek out and destroy explosives, arms factories and related terrorist infrastructure. A heavily armed band of terrorist gunmen, trying to evade the IDF, moved into Manger Square but found IDF troops and tanks ready for them. That triggered a planned and premediated Palestinian Arab operation to take over the Church of the Nativity.
IDF forces began negotiations to end the takeover. The Palestinian Arabs inside the church included many who were known terrorists and Israel demanded that they surrender. They were members of Palestinian groups on the U.S. Department of State Foreign Terrorist Organizations list, including several Hamas operatives who had killed innocent civilians. Also taking cover in the Church were Tanzim militia leaders from Yasir Arafat's Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) who were involved in recent suicide bombings, plus members of the Al Aqsa Brigade.
Israel identified the terrorist individuals by name and sought to take them into custody; the Palestinian Authority refused to transfer them into Israeli hands. Nor were representatives of other governments helpful in concluding the matter. An early agreement to end the standoff failed when Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi declined to accept the gunmen, saying that no one nation could be asked to take that responsibility, and the European Union needed to find an EU solution.
Israeli negotiating initiatives for humanitarian services during the siege were also rejected. Several efforts to remove injured persons and bodies of the dead were stymied by Palestinian Arab refusal to cooperate, and when International Red Cross representatives, recruited for the task by Israel, adamantly refused to enter the Church.
As IDF operations continued in the area, a nearby explosives laboratory was found and destroyed, and a large pipe bomb in an adjacent mosque was retrieved. Several Hamas and Tanzim operatives were arrested. Eventually some of the Palestinians inside begin surrendering, while occasional exchanges of gunfire occurred. Gradually, various church staff and trapped civilians were evacuated. One by one over time, 95 persons were released during the siege.
During the occupation of the Church of the Nativity, Yasir Arafat complained of the Israelis:
* How could the world possibly be silent about this atrocious crime? ... What concerns me is what is happening at the Church of the Nativity. This is a crime that cannot be forgiven.
More objective observers, such as Ariel Cohen in the National Review, saw things more clearly:
* Using priests and nuns as human shields in the most sacred location for Christianity is not just barbaric. It is a violation of the 1977 First Protocol to the Geneva Convention and is a war crime. Similar cases from the Balkan wars are heard today before the International Criminal Court in the Hague. Only brutal terrorists would desecrate religious shrines and hurt clergy ...
Under worldwide pressure not to damage or desecrate the Church of the Nativity, Israel insisted that the IDF would not attack. Palestinian Arabs played on fears of a bloodbath should Israel invade the Church, but throughout the siege, the IDF held to their promise that not a single Israeli soldier would enter Church premises. An IDF spokesman said:
* IDF commanders have issued specific orders to protect the integrity and sanctity of all holy places in Bethlehem, just as we do in other areas.
A priest inside told the Associated Press that only in the early days he feared the Israelis would rush the building; he later relaxed when the Greek Orthodox patriarchy assured him the Israeli army had guaranteed it would not. While early reports alleged that the IDF had broken the front door, Marc Innaro, an Italian journalist who witnessed the events, said the Palestinians had shot their way in:
* They shot at the doors ... with machine-guns and they opened the doors and rushed inside. We were in a monastery, which is very close, 25 metres near to the Nativity Church.
On May 1, a fire was seen from the distance, but upon investigation turned out to be another location, in an adjacent building. Palestinian Arab "witnesses" claimed that flares fired by Israeli soldiers sparked the blaze, but Israeli government spokesman Dore Gold responded that the fire was intentionally set by Palestinian Arab fighters holed up inside.
Finally, on May 10, after 38 days, the crisis concluded with a negotiated plan. Thirteen "senior terrorists" departed for Cyprus by British aircraft, to be dispersed among various EU nations. Twenty-six more were transported to the Gaza Strip where they were to be put on trial for terrorism. But their arrival in Gaza was greeted with a celebration and they were treated as heroes. One hundred twenty-four other Palestinian Arabs inside the Church were set free.
After the Palestinians' departure, the IDF was invited inside by Church officials to look for explosives or booby traps. An IDF spokesman said that 40 "explosive devices" were found in the Church compound. The IDF reported that seven Palestinians and no Israelis died in the confrontation at the Church.
The Church was not seriously damaged, but cooking utensils, trash, and clothing were strewn around. The debris of the occupation, and the smells of the unsanitary conditions, lingered.
Subsequent to release of the terrorists into European exile, more than fifty Congressmen wrote to United States Attorney-General Ashcroft, demanding that extradition be sought for two of them. Tanzim members Ibrahim Mussa Abayat and Jihad Yusef Halil Ja'ara had murdered an American citizen in Israel before fleeing to the Church of the Nativity. Under US law, individuals who commit acts of terrorism against American nationals may be prosecuted for such acts in the United States, regardless of where the acts took place. Congress has prodded the Executive Branch for enforcement of the law.
Sources and additional reading on this topic:
* The Vatican and the Standoff at the Church of the Nativity
* Church with a turbulent history
* Church of the Nativity attacked
* Massacre fears for 100 trapped in Bethlehem
* Entering the Church
* The Nativity Sin: War crimes in Bethlehem
* Bethlehem Heats Up
* Bethlehem: The Negotiations Concerning the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem (May 9th)
* Church of Nativity undamaged after standoff
Sought refuge my a$$.
LINK (http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1991to_now_church_nativity_2002.php)
And still no riots.
Tribesman
05-27-2005, 23:49
Sought refuge my a$$.
Yep , its there in the first paragraph
In the midst of over 200 nuns and priests, they sought refuge from Operation Defensive Shield,
But what isn't there is any mention of wiping their backsides with bibles ?
Can you provide a link that mentions that little gem ? ~;)
but Israeli government spokesman Dore Gold responded that the fire was intentionally set by Palestinian Arab fighters holed up inside.
Now thats curious , they later retracted that claim and admitted it was a flare that caused the blaze .
Gawain of Orkeny
05-27-2005, 23:55
In the midst of over 200 nuns and priests, they sought refuge from Operation Defensive Shield,
You left out this little qualifier
On April 2, 2002 armed Palestinian Arab terrorists forced their way into the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem, one of Christianity's most sacred sites, the birthplace of Christ.
You make it sound like they came begging for sanctuary and the preists told them fine come right in.
But what isn't there is any mention of wiping their backsides with bibles ?
It was in the first link and can be found easily with a google search.
Now thats curious , they later retracted that claim and admitted it was a flare that caused the blaze .
Your right the Palestinians behaved like true guests and showed everyone and everything the utmost of respect.
Tribesman
05-28-2005, 00:32
It was in the first link and can be found easily with a google search
Yes and a search comes up with lots of sites , all quoting one article in a newspaper as their evidence . Most of them also talk of the Hundreds of armed terrorists aswell , from one source again , the Italian journalist .
Now what was the lesson from the newsweek article about not checking when you are only using one source . ~;)
Gawain of Orkeny
05-28-2005, 00:40
Yes and a search comes up with lots of sites , all quoting one article in a newspaper as their evidence . Most of them also talk of the Hundreds of armed terrorists aswell , from one source again , the Italian journalist .
There was more than one person who claimed they did this. Thus its mulitple sources. The fact that only one paper otiginaly reported it is a different matter. Even if it were false they still desicrated the church.
Most of them also talk of the Hundreds of armed terrorists aswell
200 doesnt count as hundreds now? ~:confused:
Tribesman
05-28-2005, 02:52
There was more than one person who claimed they did this. Thus its mulitple sources
There is only one person named who said this , Nicolas Marquez .
200 doesnt count as hundreds now?
Since when does 39=200 , though of course as there were hundreds of armed terrorists there must have been hundreds of guns recovered after the siege ~;) Come on enlighten me , how many firearms were recovered ? ~;) How many of those belonged to soldiers and policemen of the Palestinian Authority . Did they manage to sneak all the rest out through the metal detectors ~D
BTW , just to p[oint out how misleading the article you posted is .
Angry Orthodox priests showed reporters empty bottles of whiskey, champagne, vodka, cognac and French wine on the floor along with hundreds of cigarette butts.
Oh the angry priests are complaining about the Palestinians ....they must be mustn't they ?
No they are complaining about the foriegn peace activists who entered the church during the siege .Hmmm.... slightly misleading is it not , but then if you look at the sources and references that the writer of the article used you can seee why the whole article is misleading . ~:cheers:
For anyon that is interested here is an update on the Koran abuse allegations from an Army investigation on the subject.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/security/library/news/2005/06/sec-050603-southcom01.htm
KafirChobee
06-05-2005, 11:09
Gah! The reality is that the Koran (old spelling) was mishandled, abused, used as a threat to believers and probably flushed down a toilet or two, but the military has found a way around accepting responsability for such actions and is willing to point out that they have gleefully investigated cases that had nothing to do with the subject.
Grasp this, if you can, we ain't making friends by denying our militarys' f-ups. Does anyone truely believe that the "Newsweeks" presentation of interigators abusing a "holy" item was pulled out of the air? Yep, they printed a retraction - the accusation was out there for weeks before some islamic propagandist realized its import. After, the retraction and subsequent denials by the pentagon - and after it had fallen out of the headlines - the pentagon said "wellllllllll, some of it might be true, but we never flushed an entire Koran."
Gee, that must be like we only meant to scare him, not kill him.
One can not retract their dislike for a philosophy - religion - by simply saying we only flushed a couple of pages of it.
Surprisingly, the Pentagon did fess up that it did happen.
:balloon2:
Tribesman
06-05-2005, 12:28
For anyon that is interested here is an update on the Koran abuse allegations from an Army investigation on the subject.
An interesting line keeps popping up in that report .
"We found no evidence"
So thats all well and good then , until you read the rest of the line
"of further investigation into the incident"
so they investigated the reported incidents by looking at the original investigation into the incidents and found that there was no invesigation so that means there cannot have been an incident as it wasn't investigated . :dizzy2:
Regarding the "water ballon" incident . Are these highly trained soldiers working in a sensitive environment of utmost importance to the security of the United States and the Western World ? Or are they a bunch of half-wit schoolkids just having a laugh at tax payers expense ?
Gah! The reality is that the Koran (old spelling) was mishandled, abused, used as a threat to believers and probably flushed down a toilet or two, but the military has found a way around accepting responsability for such actions and is willing to point out that they have gleefully investigated cases that had nothing to do with the subject.
Classic - so calling another human being a lair because he did not find what you believe.
Grasp this, if you can, we ain't making friends by denying our militarys' f-ups. Does anyone truely believe that the "Newsweeks" presentation of interigators abusing a "holy" item was pulled out of the air? Yep, they printed a retraction - the accusation was out there for weeks before some islamic propagandist realized its import. After, the retraction and subsequent denials by the pentagon - and after it had fallen out of the headlines - the pentagon said "wellllllllll, some of it might be true, but we never flushed an entire Koran."
Again Classic - so the military lies but a newsreport has nothing but the truth.
Gee, that must be like we only meant to scare him, not kill him.
One can not retract their dislike for a philosophy - religion - by simply saying we only flushed a couple of pages of it.
Surprisingly, the Pentagon did fess up that it did happen.
:balloon2:
And so instead of ranting about stuff that both sides do - maybe you should acknowledge that their was an effort to investigate what happened. I find it interesting that you believe the media over an individual who happens to be military doing an investigation. Hell both have been know to print what benefits them.
For anyon that is interested here is an update on the Koran abuse allegations from an Army investigation on the subject.
An interesting line keeps popping up in that report .
"We found no evidence"
So thats all well and good then , until you read the rest of the line
"of further investigation into the incident"
so they investigated the reported incidents by looking at the original investigation into the incidents and found that there was no invesigation so that means there cannot have been an incident as it wasn't investigated . :dizzy2:
So I guess you missed this part.
“With the other nine incidents, there was either intentional or unintentional mishandling of a Koran,” said Hood. “We defined mishandling as touching, holding or the treatment of a Koran in a manner inconsistent with policy or procedure. We have confirmed that five of these alleged mishandling incidents took place. After thoroughly investigating the four remaining alleged mishandling incidents, we cannot determine conclusively if they actually happened.”
“Mishandling a Koran at Guantanamo Bay is a rare occurrence. Mishandling of a Koran here is never condoned,” said Hood. “When one considers the many thousands of times detainees have been moved and cells have been searched since detention operations first began here in January 2002, I think one can only conclude that respect for detainee religious beliefs was embedded in the culture of the JTF from the start.”
or did you miss this part
In the course of the inquiry, 15 incidents were identified where detainees mishandled Korans. These included using a Koran as a pillow, ripping pages out of the Koran, attempting to flush a Koran down the toilet, and urinating on the Koran.
Regarding the "water ballon" incident . Are these highly trained soldiers working in a sensitive environment of utmost importance to the security of the United States and the Western World ? Or are they a bunch of half-wit schoolkids just having a laugh at tax payers expense ?
Lets see what a search shows - since I don't remember the news reports on that one - and its not in this report.
doc_bean
06-05-2005, 17:21
Am I the only one who feels these accusations are so dumb, that the intention of making them is most likely to make the prisoners look like a bunch of religious nuts who deserve to be locked up without due process ?
Tribesman
06-05-2005, 23:34
Lets see what a search shows - since I don't remember the news reports on that one - and its not in this report.
It is in the report you posted , enclosure 1 , page 2, section 1,a,5 .
Its another one where "We found no evidence of further investigation into the incident"
How can they call it a confirmed incident if they have no evidence from an investigation ? Likewise how can they call other incidents unconfirmed when they also have no evidence from an investigation ?
Are they just guessing or tossing a coin to decide if incidents count as confirmed or unconfirmed ?
Each physical copy of the book printed is a miracle? It's not the message that's contained within? Is the message meaningless without the paper and binding?
Yes each physical copy. Because each copy is a perfect copy of the original, and therefore is God's exact word. That is the first miracle, it being God's word. The second is that Muhammed, who was illiterate, wrote much of the Quran down. So the fact that it even exists in a written form is a miracle. Also the fact that the Quran removes the need for any further prophets, because it is believed that previous prophets had their message corrupted (Abraham, Isaac, Ishmeal, Solomon, the whole lot from Judeo-Christian tradition, and depending on how liberal a Muslim the Buddha, Lao-Tzu, and Krishna, ect).
And whats the bible? It seem nothing more than toilet paper to some Muslims. Of copurse its always fair game on christianity but heaven forbid you even hint at anything bad about Muslims.
Of course the Bible is nothing more than toliet paper to some Muslims, so is the Baghavad Gita, and Analects. And to some Christians the Quran, the Torah(go figure) and the Vedas are not better. Everyone has bigots, lets not use them as the standard.
Uhm, they Crucified Jesus. And people went on and still held dear his message of salvation.
Were they pissed off? You bet remember the dark ages?
How would Catholics react if the crucifix was dunked in urine? ...Oh wait, that was already done- and we were told that it was art and free expression. Forget how sacred a thing the Crucifixion is to us- apparently Catholicism doesn't get the kid gloves the way some other religions do.
1) The 'oh poor us, the dirty mean people did it to us first' is getting old. 2) Was the Crucifix dunked in urine in an attempt to force a Catholic who had been locked up in a prison without contact with the outside world and who may not even have commited a crime to confess or to break them? If modern artists have that kind of power we are all doomed.
Is Islam a nation now and the Koran their flag?
YES! Haven't you ever heard of the Caliphates, Muhammed ruled an Islamic state. But the state broke up and has been replaced with a number of countries that claim to be Islamic.
It seems that Palestinians have used the holy bible as toilet paper though and barely a wimper from christains. Would we protest. Most likely. Would we run wild in the streets killing people? I doubt it.
The Bible is not as important to Christians as the Koran is to Muslims. When Jesus was killed did Christians run in the street and kill people? No, but did they latter? Hell yes. And don't act all holy and say that Christians would not grow at all violent.
bmolsson
06-06-2005, 03:27
For the record: As a muslim, I don't really care what the US military does to the Quaran they might have got their hands on. If there was any abuse of ANY prisoner at ANY time, then I get upset.......
Samurai Waki
06-06-2005, 05:22
All is fair in love and war. Get Captured. Get Abused. Get Killed. Flush a Koran down the toilet. Use the Bible as Toilet Paper. Put American Flags in piles of dog poop... doesn't really matter, it's intent is all the same. To Upset the other side, all of this eye-for-an-eye bullshit is really boring and indecent. I bet if everyone stopped caring, there'd be no war... or insighting of terrorism of any sort. I understand why the average Muslim gets upset about something like this, the Koran, their faith for the most part, is all that they have... I remind you, that it wasn't that terribly long ago when Christians were at the exact same place. When you have nothing, what else is their to hold onto except faith or hope and to destroy or insult it, is insulting to everyone who believes in it. The reason why there wasn't a Christian outcry over the Terrorists at the Church of Nativity using the bible as toilet paper makes sense, Christians in general, especially Christians living in the Western World have more material possessions and therefore aren't nearly as dogmatic as those of Muslims or people with little material wealth. I think many Christians treat their faith as an incoveniance, but as long as they follow it, they will get into heaven. One of my neighbors in Colorado is an extremely faithful maybe even overly Zealous Christian, who loves his religion dearly, and follows it almost as T, but in all reality he's just using it as a cover for his own indecency, I mean the guy is a state auditor who puts people out their jobs, destroys families, and steals from the tax-payers, but he thinks as long as he goes to Church every sunday its okay for him to do what he does on a daily basis. Maybe getting a bit off topic... but my point is, So the hell what! this is how it is, and it won't change... just look the other way.
Lets see what a search shows - since I don't remember the news reports on that one - and its not in this report.
It is in the report you posted , enclosure 1 , page 2, section 1,a,5 .
Its another one where "We found no evidence of further investigation into the incident"
How can they call it a confirmed incident if they have no evidence from an investigation ? Likewise how can they call other incidents unconfirmed when they also have no evidence from an investigation ?
Are they just guessing or tossing a coin to decide if incidents count as confirmed or unconfirmed ?
Your reaching there Tribesman the report clearly describes the incident as a confirmed incident with sufficient information to confirm that it was an event that was considered abuse of the Koran. This investigation was not a criminal investigation where the information was going to be used for a criminal prosecution of the individuals involved. It was done to determine if the allegation of abuse of the koran happen or did not happen and is a report of the findings of the officer in charge of the investigation. It shows that in the investigation that the officer found a blotter entry that confirms that the event happen because the detainees reported to a guard.
(5) On 15 AUG 03, two detainees complained to the swing shift guards (1400-2200 hrs) that the detainees’ Korans were wet because the night shift guards had thrown water balloons on the block. The swing shift guards recorded the complaints in the block blotter log in accordance with normal procedures. We have not determined if the detainees made further complaints or if the Korans were replaced. There is no evidence that this incident was investigated. There is no evidence that the incident, although clearly inappropriate, caused any type of disturbance on the Block. We consider this a confirmed incident.
Tribesman
06-07-2005, 00:09
It shows that in the investigation that the officer found a blotter entry that confirms that the event happen because the detainees reported to a guard.
So if a detainee makes an allegation and the allegation is written down then it is a confirmed incident even if it wasn't investigated ?
Nope thats really lost me there , so if a detainee made an allegation over an incident that didn't happen it would still be a confirmed incident as long as a guard wrote it down , and if a detainee made an allegation over a real incident and the guard didn't write it down it would be unconfirmed incident ?
It shows that in the investigation that the officer found a blotter entry that confirms that the event happen because the detainees reported to a guard.
So if a detainee makes an allegation and the allegation is written down then it is a confirmed incident even if it wasn't investigated ?
One might assume that when the guard wrote it into the blotter that he conducted an informal investigation to confirm that the event happened. Having filled out blotter records a few times myself - they are viewed as official records of events that happened.
Nope thats really lost me there , so if a detainee made an allegation over an incident that didn't happen it would still be a confirmed incident as long as a guard wrote it down , and if a detainee made an allegation over a real incident and the guard didn't write it down it would be unconfirmed incident ?
Thats not what it states at all - nor is it what I stated.
Tribesman
06-07-2005, 01:18
One might assume that when the guard wrote it into the blotter that he conducted an informal investigation to confirm that the event happened.
Yes , but should such accusations , which have had widespread ramifications , be investigated on the assumption that a guard may have conducted an informal investigation ?
Are guards in anyway qualified to conduct an impartial investigation , formal or informal ?
But as (if you recall) my post first stated "we found no evidence of further investigation into the incident".
Why was there no follow up investigations at the time into the alledged incidents (apart from those incidents where the allegations were brought up during interrogations) ?
There are plenty of mentions in the report of sworn contemporanious statements from the guards concerning detainees abusing the Koran , but they do seem to lack slightly when the shoe is on the other foot .
One might assume that when the guard wrote it into the blotter that he conducted an informal investigation to confirm that the event happened.
Yes , but should such accusations , which have had widespread ramifications , be investigated on the assumption that a guard may have conducted an informal investigation ?
I think your trying to mix your arguements together. This instance of koran mis-handling or descration (SP) as confirmed by a blotter entry concerning the "water ballon" causing the Koran to become wet because of actions of guards - supports that American servicemembers functioning as guards did something that warranted a founded conclusion of abuse.
Are guards in anyway qualified to conduct an impartial investigation , formal or informal ?
Sure they are - I believe anyone that is not partial is able and qualified to conduct an informal investigation. Do you find it easier to believe baised views of news reporters as valid reports on items, verus a guard who simply performs his duty and annotates in the record that something happened?
But as (if you recall) my post first stated "we found no evidence of further investigation into the incident".
Are you now trying to state that the simple annotation in a journal is not enough to show or prove that the alledge abuse did indeed happen in the instance that your brought forth.? Because that is now what it seems to me that you are trying to state. So what is the deal - you find the simple truth of at least two duty bound soldiers to be unbelivable even though they state that the descration of the Koran happened in this instance?
Why was there no follow up investigations at the time into the alledged incidents (apart from those incidents where the allegations were brought up during interrogations) ?
Don't know the answer - nor do I pretend to know. What is known is that an investigation has been conducted and the findings posted for all to see - is that an action of an individual - ie the officer who did the report - who is attempting to hide information? Does an annotation of possible abuse of a document warrant a follow-up investigation if the guard annotated that it happened and was reported in an official document?
There are plenty of mentions in the report of sworn contemporanious statements from the guards concerning detainees abusing the Koran , but they do seem to lack slightly when the shoe is on the other foot .
Lets see so we are now suppose to discount the 9 confirmed cases of Koran abuse by American Guards? Because the investigation into the Alledged flushing of the Koran into the Toliet need the guards to have sworn statements. If the guards would of just stated that they did not flush the Koran would that statify you that they were stating the truth, or does a sworn statment carry more weight?
vBulletin® v3.7.1, Copyright ©2000-2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.