Bush pledges $50 million to Palestinian Authority

[PanzerJaeger]

Here's some news for all those interested in the conflict.

The Zionist Puppet Strikes Again!!! (http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/05/26/abbas.bush/index.html)

[Devastatin Dave]

Ladies and Gentlmen, that's how you piss away 50 million bucks. The only people that will benifit from this money are companies that sell explosives and bomb belts... Bush ####ed this one up for sure....

[ichi]

Sometimes I think that the situation in the Middle East might be resolved some day, but it will probably take little baby steps like this.

I really really dislike Bush, but even I have to admit he has done something truly remarkable here.

If only we could turn down the volume of hate, from the Muslims and Christians. Both groups claim Jesus as a prophet, and my guess is that Jesus would be hopeful that this has occurred.

ichi :bow:

[Beirut]

Wow! ~:eek: That's what the US gives to Israel every... about seven days.

I'm impressed. Amazing. What outstanding generosity.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

I really really dislike Bush, but even I have to admit he has done something truly remarkable here.

It's not that remarkable. He's already too free with taxpayer money.

[Redleg]

Wow! ~:eek: That's what the US gives to Israel every... about seven days.

I'm impressed. Amazing. What outstanding generosity.

Well its better then a swift kick in the ass.....

[PanzerJaeger]

Especially since they dont deserve anything. ~;)

[Proletariat]

Does this mean 'great compromise'?


Ladies and Gentlmen, that's how you piss away 50 million bucks.


That's what the US gives to Israel every... about seven days.

[Adrian II]

Wow! ~:eek: That's what the US gives to Israel every... about seven days.LOL! Like the man said: piss it away, George!

[sharrukin]

Maybe the money will be used for schools for Palestinian children!

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:4HdNVkJbmeIJ:news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1446000/1446003.stm+suicide+bomber+children&hl=en&start=1&lr=lang_en

BBC, By Jeremy Cooke in Gaza

The Islamic Jihad is running a summer school - to teach boys the benefits of becoming suicide bombers.

A new generation of children, Palestinian boys aged between 12 and 15 years old, is growing up amid conflict and violence.

Teacher Mohammed el Hattab: Suicide bombers go to the highest state in paradise. The militant group has a sworn mission to wage a holy war against Israel. The boys are told not only that it is good to kill, but also that it is good to die. They learn that suicide bomb attacks have proved the most deadly way to hit the Israelis.

Mohammed, a 14-year-old boy, draws himself with explosives strapped to his body, ready to blow himself to pieces if it means killing Jews.

"Yes," he says, when asked if he wants to be a suicide bomber. "I want to liberate Palestine and be part of the revolution."

The boys are told that it is good to kill and good to die. The boys are shown pictures of those who have already died in the conflict with Israel. They are taught that to give their lives is to be guaranteed a place in heaven. And to be a suicide bomber is one of the highest forms of martyrdom. They will be greeted in paradise by 70 virgins.

"We are teaching the children that suicide bombing is the only thing that make the Israeli people very frightened. Furthermore, we are teaching them that we have the right to do it," said Islamic Jihad member Mohammed el Hattab, one of the teachers on the programme.

"We are teaching them that after the suicide attacks, the man who makes it goes to the highest state in paradise," he said.

[Productivity]

Maybe the money will be used for schools for Palestinian children!


All the more reason why money is needed for real schools, so children have an alternative to these propaganda centres.

[Beirut]

Especially since they dont deserve anything. ~;)

You mean like food and water too? ~;)

Yep, disposable people. How terribly convenient. I heard some decades back there was a group of people that some others thought didn't deserve anything. In the end though they did at least get special treatment. Lucky them eh?

[sharrukin]

All the more reason why money is needed for real schools, so children have an alternative to these propaganda centres.

I would agree with that but it would require that we direct where the money goes rather than allowing it to be used without restrictions.

[Productivity]

I would agree with that but it would require that we direct where the money goes rather than allowing it to be used without restrictions.


The money will be used for new housing and infrastructure projects in Gaza, "where poverty and unemployment are very high," Bush said during a post-meeting news conference.

So it looks like it is directed...

[Papewaio]

I heard some decades back there was a group of people that some others thought didn't deserve anything. In the end though they did at least get special treatment. Lucky them eh?

I think your timelime is out by a couple of centuries as the early pilgrims where helped out by the Indians and they now celebrate that as Thanksgiving day. ~;)

[LittleGrizzly]

well im amazed, well done bush.

[PanzerJaeger]

You mean like food and water too?

No, they dont deserve a $50 million handout from the US, but we're helping them in an effort to better the lives of everyone in that area. Its funny, i post an article about how were giving them a bucket load of cash and were still the bad guys.



Yep, disposable people. How terribly convenient. I heard some decades back there was a group of people that some others thought didn't deserve anything. In the end though they did at least get special treatment. Lucky them eh?

Thats an especially cheap shot. :embarassed:

And thus ends the good news for the peace effort thread.. :no:

[Beirut]

No, they dont deserve a $50 million handout from the US, but we're helping them in an effort to better the lives of everyone in that area. Its funny, i post an article about how were giving them a bucket load of cash and were still the bad guys.

It's not that you're stil the bad guys, but this doesn't exectly make you the good guys either. $50M, in this context, is like letting the Palestinians look at a picture of your cousin while you're letting the Israelis bonk your wife. The US bears a much, much higher responsibility in this affair.


Thats an especially cheap shot. :embarassed:

A nasty one, but not that cheap. After all, there are people on the boards who again and again refer to the Palestinian people as animals. The Palestinians are often dehumanized as a people, both on these forums and elsewhere. They are looked down on and seen as less than equal. This bears a stricking resemblance to events from the past, in different eras, events that had tragic consequences.

Good news? I want to hear Bush say he's granting $500M for starters to build up the infrastructure for the Palestinians. Challenge the other Arab states to match it. Send neutral, third party engineers and doctors, paid for by the Americans, (and other Arab states if they can get off their lazy behinds) to start the process. The US can take the money out of the three billion a year Israel receives. Start a process that snowballs and becomes unstopable. Give the Palestinians a real taste of civilized life, not just a daydream from their prison existence. When they see and experience good hospitals, plentiful water, irrigation for crops, new homes (living in the bulldozed ones is very cramped I hear), neighbourhoods cleared of rubble, parks and greenspace, employment and opportunity, those are things they will not want to let go of too easilly. Those are the things that people need. Even Palestinians. ~;)

(Mind you, the Israeli armed forces might see the rebuilding as a sort of mission editior in a flight sim. Someone else creates a scenery file, the Palestinians download it and install it, then the Isreali air force blows it up again. Sorry, been playing IL2 too much. :dizzy2: )

[Fragony]

I hope it falls in the right hands, I doubt it. Better not give money, build roads, schools, waterways, etc. These 50 million are destined to dissapear, it is very corrupt there.

[Lazul]

Especially since they dont deserve anything. ~;)

Neither Isreal or Palestine deservs any support from any other country, since both nations act like racist, narro-minded bombhappy morons.

Thats exactly the way I feel! :bow:

[Idaho]

Pointless drop in the ocean. The place is a war zone. End curfews, checkpoints, air strikes and home demolitions and perhaps in 10 years time a normal economy and society can return to Palestine. The place is inoperable right now.

[Papewaio]

If we could make Idaho and Jag the leaders of Israel and Palestine.

Have everyone obey their rulers absolutely.

Then in a generation we would have a paradise.

Put Pindar and myself in charge and in a generation it would be a desert and two guys still going over the fine print of the negotiations. ~D

Pindar "But in common usage it always means this"
Papewaio "Since when did I say I was using common usage? And what do you define as common in this instance and season?"

Everyone else slowly backing off before they go numb...

[Fragony]

If we could make Idaho and Jag the leaders of Israel and Palestine.


Indeed I love a good catfight.

// runs away

[Al Khalifah]

Wow, wail to fuel the conflict. Give both sides aid.

[Beirut]

Is it just me or has my Idahoic friend been gone a long time?

Nice to have you back. You may whomp on my intellect at your pleasure. :bow:

[Byzantine Prince]

Bush pledges $50 million to Palestinian Authority
Finally, the Palestinians will be able to buy toothpicks for each and every one of their citizens for a whole year! :tongueg:

Seriously though, 50 million?!?! That's peanuts. Hell Donald Trump drops 50 million on his tranportation every year.

[Idaho]

Is it just me or has my Idahoic friend been gone a long time?

Nice to have you back. You may whomp on my intellect at your pleasure. :bow:

I've not been posting as much of late - these things come in seasons...

I'd happily take control of Israel. I bet in 5 years I could secure a peaceful border with the Palestinians and treaties with all the arab neighbours. The only trouble would be avoiding assasination by Israeli religious zealots as I piece by piece destroyed their stupid and dangerous dream of a greater Israel with Jerusalem as it's capital.

[ichi]

is like letting [them] look at a picture of your cousin

dude, obviously you haven't ever seen my cousin!

[Devastatin Dave]

I've not been posting as much of late - these things come in seasons...

I'd happily take control of Israel. I bet in 5 years I could secure a peaceful border with the Palestinians and treaties with all the arab neighbours. The only trouble would be avoiding assasination by Israeli religious zealots as I piece by piece destroyed their stupid and dangerous dream of a greater Israel with Jerusalem as it's capital.

LOL, in 2 days the only memory of you would be a video tape of you in an orange jump suit having your head sawed off while a bunch of filthy murderers chanted "Allah Akbar" or a pile of ashes that use to be you after an Isreali rocket incinerated you. The Palestinians and the MAJORITY of the middle east HATE you Idaho. Not because you want to help them or the fact that you hate the Isrealis as much as they do, they HATE you regardless. But the fact that you're an athiest would go over even better with those wonderful peaceful muslims and Jews, suuuure, they would let you lead them into peace and happiness!!! :dizzy2: Like the old saying says, never hug a snake, it won't love you back. Piss on the whole region. I'm hoping the Iranians do get nukes then Israel and Iran can fry the whole ####ing ####hole that is the cause of the majority of all the worlds problems, well that and liberal!!!! ~D

[Adrian II]

The Palestinians and the MAJORITY of the middle east HATE you Idaho.Someone needs to go out more often. When I was there (twice in ten years) nobody hated me, neither in Israel nor in the West bank. I was received with open arms, ate halva till I burst.. oh wait, but I spoke French. ~D

[Devastatin Dave]

Someone needs to go out more often. When I was there (twice in ten years) nobody hated me, neither in Israel nor in the West bank. I was received with open arms, ate halva till I burst.. oh wait, but I spoke French. ~D
LOL... Good to see you got on the right buses there as well... ~D

Oui Oui?

[Goofball]

Well, I for one say kudos to Bush. I think this is possibly the first thing he has done that I approve of. Org patrons who have been around for a while know that I am pro-Israel, and I think this is a good thing for Israel. People who live in a society with food, water, infrastructure and security are much less likely to be angry enough to strap bombs to themselves and go on murdering rampages.

I realize $50 million won't do all of that, but it's a good start.

[Fragony]

Someone needs to go out more often. When I was there (twice in ten years) nobody hated me, neither in Israel nor in the West bank. I was received with open arms, ate halva till I burst.. oh wait, but I spoke French. ~D

Nothing to do with the subject, but for what newpaper do you work adrian?

[Adrian II]

Nothing to do with the subject, but for what newpaper do you work adrian?Thanks F-f-frag, b-b-but I'll remain anonymomalous! (Porky Pig)

[Fragony]

Thanks F-f-frag, b-b-but I'll remain anonymomalous! (Porky Pig)

I am serious, just interested. And I am not that bad you cursed hippie ~;)

[PanzerJaeger]

Wow there are some ungrateful people in here. If I supported a group of downtrodden people and Bush sent them 50 million I would at least restrain myself. But no, were still bad, hes still evil, blah blah blah.. You wonder why we arent as giving to people, its because they take our money with no problems but then spin things to where we are still the bad guys.

Israel gets aid for a number of reasons. For starters they are a strategic partner , you know, an ally. On the other hand the palestinians have no problem burning the american flag and dancing in the streets after our buildings are blown up. Also Israel was sort of ganged up on 3 different times and only managed to stay in existence because of the piss poor arab armies. We help them and they help us, thats a much different circumstance than what we have with the palestinians.

[Fragony]

Israel gets aid for a number of reasons. For starters they are a strategic partner , you know, an ally.

I would rather say that america is Israel's strategic cannonfodder. What ally, they didn't hesitate to bomb your ships or bulldozer your citizens when they felt it served their cause. Nice friends, I bet they are having a good laugh over that one.

[Idaho]

Wow there are some ungrateful people in here. If I supported a group of downtrodden people and Bush sent them 50 million I would at least restrain myself.

If my mate beat the shit out of you and kicked you out of your house while I watched - would you be grateful If I chucked you a couple of bucks after to get yourself a beer?

[Goofball]

If my mate beat the shit out of you and kicked you out of your house while I watched - would you be grateful If I chucked you a couple of bucks after to get yourself a beer?

Yes, if PJ had been sending his children on a weekly basis into your living room with bombs strapped to their waists.

[Beirut]

You wonder why we arent as giving to people, its because they take our money with no problems but then spin things to where we are still the bad guys.

As I said before, it's not so much that you're the bad guys, but you've a long long way to go before you're heroes.


On the other hand the palestinians have no problem burning the american flag and dancing in the streets after our buildings are blown up.


Gee, you think it might have something to do with 90% of the bullets and bomb frangments they're pulling out of their kids for the last thirty having "Made in the USA" stamped on them? And maybe it has something to do with the people who shoot them and torture them and bulldoze their houses and steal their land and water getting billions and billions and billions from the USA?

Do you really think the Palestinians owe the US any love?

[Idaho]

Yes, if PJ had been sending his children on a weekly basis into your living room with bombs strapped to their waists.

Yeah the Palestinians first started suicide bombing in the late 19th century. hey would travel to London, New York and Warsaw searching out Jews to kill. In retaliation the Jews decided to seek justice by setting up a new country and booting the Palestinians out :dizzy2:

[Goofball]

Yeah the Palestinians first started suicide bombing in the late 19th century. hey would travel to London, New York and Warsaw searching out Jews to kill. In retaliation the Jews decided to seek justice by setting up a new country and booting the Palestinians out :dizzy2:

You should read up a bit. Arab attacks on Jews began pretty much as soon as Jews started emigrating back to the area. It's nothing new. Arafat with his family history of Naziism was just carrying on the tradition.

[BDC]

You should read up a bit. Arab attacks on Jews began pretty much as soon as Jews started emigrating back to the area. It's nothing new. Arafat with his family history of Naziism was just carrying on the tradition.
As opposed to the Jews who just blew up hotels full of Brits.

Back on topic, it's a good sign. People are marginally less likely to try and kill you if you paid for the explosive.

[Beirut]

You should read up a bit. Arab attacks on Jews began pretty much as soon as Jews started emigrating back to the area.

The Arabs knew that the Zionist's intent, as stated by the Zionist leadership, was to take over all the land for themselves. They're intention living in peace side by side was to last only until they had an army powerful enough to take over all the land.


Arafat with his family history of Naziism was just carrying on the tradition.

Sins of the father? What about the (future) Israeli Prime Ministers who were killing Allied soldiers during WWII? Shall we blame thir children as well? What about their grandchildren? Where does hereditary sin end?

[Goofball]

The Arabs knew that the Zionist's intent, as stated by the Zionist leadership, was to take over all the land for themselves. They're intention living in peace side by side was to last only until they had an army powerful enough to take over all the land.

Really? Because the Israelis have already administered several ass-kickings to the combined "might" of all of the surrounding Arab countries on a number of occasions. If you are correct and it is the aim of the Jews to take over "all the land," then why isn't the Star of David flying proudly over the cities of Cairo, Damascus and Amman? In fact, why haven't they simply wiped the Palestinians off of the map? They certainly have the military ability to do it.

[The_Doctor]

The UN would get invloved and stop them.

Or a superpower would have stopped them.

I was watching a program on the history channel about the six day war. Command decisions into was called.

[Beirut]

Now this is what I want to see.

From CBC news:

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/05/27/abbas-martin050527.html


"Now, these initiatives are just a down payment," Martin said. "Canada and the international community must clearly do much more at this crucial moment in the Middle East."

The Canadian package, although modest in terms of Palestinian needs, is bigger on a per-capita basis than the $50-million (U.S.) the Palestinian president was offered in Washington on Thursday.

[Devastatin Dave]

The UN would get invloved and stop them.




The UN couldn't stop a boy scout from carving a wooden car.

[Leet Eriksson]

Warning, the following link is certainly a biased site:

http://www.palestine-pmc.com/details.asp?cat=1&id=878

But it shows what my country has done to help the palestinians... which dwarfs the canadian and american aid combined. Though I think its better if the US sent aid, becuase it gives the palestinians a positive image of the US and probably improves the peace process.

EDIT: Oh and btw, its best to oversee where that money goes, just as we did with the construction project in Gaza, just as Beirut said, its best to send a third party workforce like doctors and engineers.

[Kanamori]

"The UN couldn't stop a boy scout from carving a wooden car."

...Those were the days.

~:cheers:

[The_Doctor]

I mean in the past when the USA and the USSR needed the UN to keep the peace and the whole thing seemed to work.

It doesn't work now because it gets in America's way.

But if anything happened to America they run crying to the UN.
"Help us Kofi, its Vietnam all over again."

[Tribesman]

Though I think its better if the US sent aid,
Faisal the US does send aid , but there is a law that bans direct aid to the PA ,this law has been waived in this case as it was previously once in 2003 .
USaid to NGOs in Palestine in '97 amounted to $232,290 per day which is a large amount of cash , though of course it is a lot smaller amount than the $15,139,178 per day that Isreal recieved .

[Leet Eriksson]

I do know the US sends aid, but the palestinian people hardly know about it, I meant they should make larger aid packages receive more publicity, this does alot of good in the longer run.

[Devastatin Dave]

I do know the US sends aid, but the palestinian people hardly know about it, I meant they should make larger aid packages receive more publicity, this does alot of good in the longer run.

Why should my country give more aid to a bunch of {people I don't like} that hate my country and are bent on the destruction of my country as well as our ally? Why don't your country and all those other muslim brothers of the Palestinians give up some of your land? Isreal only makes up less than 1% of the land in the middle east. Selfish perhaps?

[The_Doctor]

Why should my country give more aid to a bunch of {people I don't like} that hate my country and are bent on the destruction of my country as well as our ally?

It might make them like you, then you have another ally.
It could help to stop the fighting in the region.


Why don't your country and all those other muslim brothers of the Palestinians give up some of your land? Isreal only makes up less than 1% of the land in the middle east. Selfish perhaps?

It is probably the same reason as why the USA will not give up some land to form some kind of navtive american country. And Spain with the Basques, France with the Bretons, England with Devonshire people, etc.

[Devastatin Dave]

It might make them like you, then you have another ally.
It could help to stop the fighting in the region.



It is probably the same reason as why the USA will not give up some land to form some kind of navtive american country. And Spain with the Basques, France with the Bretons, England with Devonshire people, etc.



"Make them like you"? That is soooo European!!!! lol
The US gives way too much as it is. And that goes for the Isrealis as well.

[Redleg]

It might make them like you, then you have another ally.
It could help to stop the fighting in the region.

Maybe - maybe not




It is probably the same reason as why the USA will not give up some land to form some kind of navtive american country. And Spain with the Basques, France with the Bretons, England with Devonshire people, etc.

LOL - another one from outside the United States showing their ignorance of the Reservation systems for each tribe here in the United States.

[Byzantine Prince]

"Make them like you"? That is soooo European!!!! lol
The US gives way too much as it is. And that goes for the Isrealis as well.
50,000,000 is peanuts for any nation. You might as well given nothing.

[Devastatin Dave]

50,000,000 is peanuts for any nation. You might as well given nothing.

Sounds good to me, i wouldn't offer a cup of piss for them to sip on during a hot day....

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

England with Devonshire people

I think you mean Cornwall actually. It's just Devon as well-there's no shire on the end.

[sharrukin]

It might make them like you, then you have another ally.
It could help to stop the fighting in the region.


There was a guy by the name of Neville Chamberlain who thought that as well. In the long run it really doesn't work out for the best when you try to pay the Danegold. You can buy schools not friends.

[Steppe Merc]

Why should my country give more aid to a bunch of {people I don't like} that hate my country and are bent on the destruction of my country as well as our ally? Why don't your country and all those other muslim brothers of the Palestinians give up some of your land? Isreal only makes up less than 1% of the land in the middle east. Selfish perhaps?
Not all Middle Easterners hate America. And I think it's far more selfish for such a rich country too spend money on new ways of killing people as opposed to saving inoccent lives, than for people to object to a country that exists on where they and their forefathers lived who still persecute them.


LOL - another one from outside the United States showing their ignorance of the Reservation systems for each tribe here in the United States.
Well it is certaintly a lot better now than it used to be, from what I understand.

[Beirut]

Why should my country give more aid to a bunch of {people I don't like} that hate my country and are bent on the destruction of my country as well as our ally?

Maybe they wouldn't think so badly of you if it weren't for all those Made in America pieces of shrapnel they've been pulling out of their kids bodies for the last few decades.

If the Mexicans were beating up on you using Mirage fighters, Leclerc tanks and FAMAS rifles, all paid for by the French, and you were busy pulling pieces of steel out of your kids body that read "Fabrique en France", I can't imagine that you'd been sending Jacques Chirac a Father's Day card anytime soon. And if the Eiffel Tower fell down, my guess is you'd crack open a bottle of JD and call your buddies over for a BBQ.


Why don't your country and all those other muslim brothers of the Palestinians give up some of your land? Isreal only makes up less than 1% of the land in the middle east. Selfish perhaps?

Many of the other Arab countries are as guilty of neglect towards the palestinians as everybody else. You can't rely on most of them for anything.

[The_Doctor]

LOL - another one from outside the United States showing their ignorance of the Reservation systems for each tribe here in the United States.

I was using it as an example, if the native Americans asked for their own country, completely independent of the US, you would not do it. No country would it.

All countries are imperial (from the Latin word imperium meaning power to command, authority, command, rule, control), they want power and influence and giving up any amount of land/taxpayers/manpower would weaken them, so they will not do it.


There was a guy by the name of Neville Chamberlain who thought that as well. In the long run it really doesn't work out for the best when you try to pay the Danegold. You can buy schools not friends.

We seem to be on different wavelengths.

I am saying help people develop their country and they will be your friends.

You are thinking barbarians demanding loot.

[sharrukin]

Quote:
There was a guy by the name of Neville Chamberlain who thought that as well. In the long run it really doesn't work out for the best when you try to pay the Danegold. You can buy schools not friends.



We seem to be on different wavelengths.

I am saying help people develop their country and they will be your friends.

You are thinking barbarians demanding loot.

I guess the barbarian thing sprang into my mind when I think of the splattered body parts of women and children all over the sidewalk.

Helping people develop their country is something I would agree with, but helping your enemies develop the potential to do more damage is not wise. One would think by that logic that the Saudi's would be our friends but they clearly are not. Money and development don't have much to do with it, IMO. Nations that we have treated poorly remain our friends and allies and others who we have lavished with gifts remain our enemy. We can at best buy governments but not the friendship of the people. I personally don't think there are any easy answers and our chequebook certainly isn't one of them.

[The_Doctor]

I guess the barbarian thing sprang into my mind when I think of the splattered body parts of women and children all over the sidewalk.

Is that from a Israeli air strike or Palestinian suicide bomber?

They are as bad as each other.


We can at best buy governments but not the friendship of the people. I personally don't think there are any easy answers and our chequebook certainly isn't one of them.

What you do is conquer the country, then invest in a strong welfare state to help the people. America has the conquering bit done in Iraq, but has banned nationalised industries, so the Iraqi people will never see the benefit of having lots of oil. It will be like Saudi.

According to the BBC website the UAE invested oil-money into a welfare state and they seem to be doing well.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/country_profiles/737620.stm

[Redleg]

I was using it as an example, if the native Americans asked for their own country, completely independent of the US, you would not do it. No country would it.

You would be incorrect in part - while not nations in the concept of National Governments - the Federal government must ask permission to enter the Reservation to do anything, and the Reservations can and often do establish their own laws, regulations, and enforcement agencies.

http://www.cherokee.org/

Maybe the Palenstine Authority should establish something along the lines of the Native American Reservation Systems.



All countries are imperial (from the Latin word imperium meaning power to command, authority, command, rule, control), they want power and influence and giving up any amount of land/taxpayers/manpower would weaken them, so they will not do it.


And I guess this means you are in 100% support of Israel regardless of its actions.

[The_Doctor]

And I guess this means you are in 100% support of Israel regardless of its actions.

No. I was stating a fact. I do not like it, but it seems to be true.

[Redleg]

What you do is conquer the country, then invest in a strong welfare state to help the people. America has the conquering bit done in Iraq, but has banned nationalised industries, so the Iraqi people will never see the benefit of having lots of oil. It will be like Saudi.


To early to call what the government of Iraq is going to be like - but with a democracy elected government - its doubtful it will be like Saudi Arabia. Maybe something good - maybe something bad. But Saudi Arabia is a Monarchy where the ruling family uses religion to oppress their own people, and encourages hate toward their western allies to direct the anger of the populace toward something else beside regime.

And as the banning of nationalized industries - one you will have to show where the banning of any state owned industry has been done, where the banning of any Iraqi citizen from owning industry within the nation of Iraq has been ordered and done, and where such a ban is a permant thing. Otherwise your statement is just rethoric to be read and applied based upon the know facts of the situation.

[Redleg]

No. I was stating a fact. I do not like it, but it seems to be true.

If all nations are Imperial in design then the citizens of nations can not protest the actions of any nation - because the national government is always acting within the scope of the concept in which you wrote of. If you believe all national governments are Imperial in design - then you by default are supportin such measures that Israel has taken to protect its interests within its own borders - and the terrorities that were seized as a result of warfare.

[The_Doctor]

It is in the Iraqi contituntion. They are not allowed to nationalise any industry.

I will try to find something about.

[The_Doctor]

If you believe all national governments are Imperial in design - then you by default are supportin such measures that Israel has taken to protect its interests within its own borders

You misunderstand me. I saying that happens^, but I do not like it and it should change.

[sharrukin]

What you do is conquer the country, then invest in a strong welfare state to help the people. America has the conquering bit done in Iraq, but has banned nationalised industries, so the Iraqi people will never see the benefit of having lots of oil. It will be like Saudi.

According to the BBC website the UAE invested oil-money into a welfare state and they seem to be doing well.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/country_profiles/737620.stm

So the UAE likes itself! That isn't much of a revelation. The point is that supplying money for a welfare state or not will not buy you friends. People who dislike you will not be overally swayed by cash handouts. They will take the cash because they are not idiots but it doesn't make them your pal. And I agree with you about Iraq. What the Americans are doing there is not a clever idea and they should have gotten out as quickly as possible, but that's another story.

[Leet Eriksson]

Why should my country give more aid to a bunch of {people I don't like} that hate my country and are bent on the destruction of my country as well as our ally?

Thats your opinion, personally i couldn't care less if you liked them or not. Its your adminstration that recently gave them aid, go and ask them perhaps?


Why don't your country and all those other muslim brothers of the Palestinians give up some of your land? Isreal only makes up less than 1% of the land in the middle east. Selfish perhaps?

No one is willing to do that, maybe we are selfish, but no one in his right mind will give some land to foreign people, there will be alot of economical problems and political ones, this is a very lengthy issue.

I will just copy/paste this for you to understand how hard it is:

Economic reasons:

It should be emphasized that 75% of the new Jewish immigrants to Israel, after the 1948 war, operated looted Palestinians houses, farms, cars, truck, banks, and the infrastructure resource such as water networks, the power grids, railroads, airports, wells, the telegraph network, and the schools, roads, and ports.

In other words, Israel has had the looted Palestinian capital as collateral, German compensation money for war crimes committed during WW II, and over 120 billion dollars in American taxpayers' money to help settle the new Jewish immigrants. On the other hand, Palestinian refugees and their corresponding host countries had no such good fortune. If Palestinians are to be helped to settle someone else's country, they have to take somebody else's property, which is unfair and unjust to others. From an economical standpoint, the biggest economic boost the "Jewish State" had was the looted and stolen Palestinian properties.

For a second, let's assume that such repatriation is possible in the host countries, and calculate the cost of such repatriation. For example, let's assume that we need to provide a reasonable health care insurance (not government subsidized) for each Palestinian refugee in Jordan (which hosts close to 3 million Palestinian refugees), and let us also assume that such insurance costs a $100/month per refugee. So the total yearly cost of providing health care insurance to all refugees in Jordan is at least 3.6 billion dollars = $100 * 12 months * 3 million refugees. Note that we have not yet analyzed the costs of providing infrastructure services, i.e. roads, water networks, power grids, education, transportations, ports, airports, ...etc. While contemplating these staggering numbers, keep in mind that the annual budget for the Jordanian government is little over 6 billion dollars, compared to 53 billion dollars for Israel.

While the average Jordanian citizen has some kind of collateral (such as land, real state, ... etc. ) to support his or her future well being, the average Palestinian refugee has nothing but his or her tent as collateral, and even the tent belongs to the United Nations. Consequently, the net worth (in economic terms) of the average Palestinian is almost nil, which negatively impacts tax revenues in the host countries. In fact, the huge number of refugees stifled economic growth in these host countries for several decades-since many essential services had to be diverted to help the refugees.

Ironically, the absence of the Palestinian economic base has motivated the average Palestinian to invest in his or her intellectual capital. It's really amazing how many Palestinians live the lives of many Jews in the past. In general, Europeans used to restrict land purchases by their Jewish citizens, which in return motivated many Jews to invest in their intellectual capital.

For the moment assume that the above economic formula is nonsense to the average Israeli or Zionist, then let's ask the following questions:

If it's easy for the host Arab countries to integrate Palestinian refugees into their economic and social structure, then why after three decades of Israeli military occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip, has Israel been unable to improve the lives of the Palestinian refugees under its direct control?

If it's easy for the host countries to integrate the refugees (despite their limited resources), then surely it should be much easier for Israel to do so?

Paradoxically, many Palestinian refugees' economic situation has actually worsened under Israeli occupation, and if it were not for United Nations' food rations, many refugees would have starved by now! In fact, malnutrition among Palestinian Children in the occupied West Bank and the occupied Gaza Strip has increased by 1600% since September of 2000.

It's unfair to claim that many Arab countries did not integrate Palestinian refugees into their economic, social, and even political structures. Out of the 5.9 million Palestinian refugees, there are 3.5 million refugees who still live in refugee camps (usually known as "registered refugees"). So despite all of the above obstacles, some 2 million Palestinian refugees (almost half the number of the Israeli Jews) are already integrated into the host countries' economic, political, and social structures.
Political Reasons

For the above economic reasons, Palestinian refugees were obliged to compete for all available resources in the host countries and continue to do so. The average Palestinian (ironically, like many Jews in the West) knows that he or she has to work twice as hard as the local worker just to keep his or her job. On average, Palestinians (for economic and political reasons) are not welcomed in the host countries, and that generates anti-Palestinian feeling. For instance, take the discriminatory practices of the Lebanese government where Palestinians are excluded from 73 job types, such engineering, health care, financing, ... etc.

Although this behavior is deplorable, it is a natural reaction by any state to any external threat to its resources, and this is a common experience among Jews when they emigrate to the "Jewish state". It should be noted that it is still a tense situation between Ashkenazi, Sephardi, and African Israeli Jews, and the blood of the latter was not welcomed in Israeli blood banks for a very long time.

It should be noted that even if the Palestinian refugees are integrated into the host countries, that won't stop Palestinians from demanding their right to return to their homes in Israel. Palestinians are extremely proud of their national identity, and continuously assert their unique cultural and political differences at the earliest possible opportunity. This deep sense of nationalism is widely shared most Palestinians, especially among the affluent families, who are already integrated in Western and Arab societies, i.e. in the US, Europe, Canada, ... etc. Actually, many of them still marry from the same indigenous localities, and maintain their unique dresses, folklore, and accents.

The major obstacle that many Israelis and Zionists have in their dealings with Palestinians is that they think that 8.5 million Palestinians have no national rights, such as the right of self determination. Paradoxically, they believe that 4.5 million Jews in Israel have the right of self determination! From the start, the struggle between Zionism and the Palestinian people was a struggle between two distinct and conflicting nationalistic movements.

Most, if not all, host countries are hesitant to grant political rights (such as the right to vote) to non-citizens, especially if the "newcomers" could overnight change the political landscape. This political problem was the case in Jordan, Lebanon, and Syria soon after the 1948 war. For example, Jordan's citizens became (overnight) a minority in their own country. To ask the average Jordanian to accept this situation on a permanent basis, without anything in return, is to create a "political time bomb". Unfortunately, this "political time bomb" has already exploded in Jordan and Lebanon, and its after shocks are still felt today.

There is no question of the fact that some political movements have benefited politically and economically from not integrating the Palestinian refugees. We agree that all host countries used (and will continue to use) the refugees as a tool to collect international aid and bribes. We also concur that suppressing Palestinians makes political and economic sense to some regional leaders. On the other hand, it's not fair to point the finger of blame at the host countries for not solving a problem that Israel has created. By blocking the Palestinian refugees' return to their homes, farms, and businesses, Israel has made this problem persist and fester for many generations, and it has to put up the lion's share of the effort needed to solve it.

This sums up my thoughts perfectly.

[sharrukin]

12 million Germans from the eastern territories
Moslems and Turks expelled from Yugoslavia
Polish refugees in the west unable to return to Soviet controlled Poland
Japanese expelled from Manchuria and Korea
Hungarians expelled from Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia
Poles expelled from the areas of Poland annexed by Russia
Italians from Libya and the Trieste region
Slavs, Jews, Gypsies from the concentration camps
Karelian Finns were expelled by the Soviets
one million Frenchmen left Algeria after Algerian independence
Greek refugees from the civil war
Russian Mennonite refugees in Germany
Palestinian refugees fleeing the Arab-Israeli conflict
Estonian refugees in Germany and Sweden
Hindu Sindhis were forced to flee with just the clothes that they were wearing and a few personal belongings, often tied up in a bed sheet fleeing in an effort to get away from the mass killings by the Muslims.
Punjabi Muslims fleeing mass killings by Hindus with nothing to call their own.
15.6 million non-Muslims left East Pakistan after Partition in 1948
almost 10 million French, Italian, Dutch, Belgian, Serbian, Polish, Russian, Baltic, etc slave labourers stranded after the war
The list could go on for a while

And of all these groups which ones are still refugees? One single group of people have claim to that dubious honour. The Palestinians!

Are the Hindu's and Moslems of the Indian subcontinent so much richer and better off than the Palestinians? NO! Are the Palestinians the stupidest people on earth? Well, their leadership might take that prize but I don't think they as a people are.

So what in hell are they all doing in so-called refugee camps that look striking like Arab villages from throughout the middle east? This is 57 years later. This sounds more like a political game played by the Palestinian leadership at the expense of the Palestinian people.

The Palestinians attempted to overthrow the Jordanian government in 1970 and when they were expelled from their they went to lebanon where they cheerfully helped dismantle the government. So what Arab government in their right mind would even want them around? Their leadership is directly responsible for much of the plight they find themselves in. Many other groups have 'been done wrong' and have gotten on with life. Every single other group of people mistreated from the 1940's and 50's have gone on to make a better future for themselves.

It's time for the Palestinians to get over it. Everyone else did, and some of them had a hell of a lot more to snivel about.

[Beirut]

It's time for the Palestinians to get over it.

What's to get over? They were kicked off their land and they know they can't go back. What they're pissed about is that the people who stole most of their country are now keeping them prisoner and treating them brutally in what little they have left.

Maybe we should tell the Israelis, "Hey you already stole most of everything, it's been decades, why don't you stop holding us prisoner and just get over it."

[Leet Eriksson]

At least the palestinians still have the balls to hold onto their land. The only people that have to get over it are the Isrealis, they also should accept that there will be a palestinian state sometime soon.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

What's to get over? They were kicked off their land and they know they can't go back. What they're pissed about is that the people who stole most of their country are now keeping them prisoner and treating them brutally in what little they have left.

Are you talking about the Jews? ~:)


Maybe we should tell the Israelis, "Hey you already stole most of everything, it's been decades, why don't you stop holding us prisoner and just get over it."

They only got a small portion of what was originally theirs back. The Palestinians and Jordanians are still holding the rest. How is it that you only give them credit for the land being theirs when so many owned it before them and most of them never owned any land there before the 20th century? If it belongs to the most recent owner then it belongs to Israel. Out of all the people who ever owned the land there you pick to back one who never owned it or had a country there. I dont back Israel taking the land because it was once Israel and dont see how you can back Palestinains for trying to take back land that was never Palestinian. The only reason thety are being as you say held prisoner is because their behaving like criminals.


At least the palestinians still have the balls to hold onto their land. The only people that have to get over it are the Isrealis, they also should accept that there will be a palestinian state sometime soon.

Maybe they will when the Palestinains and other arabs recognize Israels right to exist and that its not going anywhere. The only reason the Palestinians still have theirr land is that the Israelis let them have it. If the shoe were on the other foot you can bet there wouldnt be a jew in the middle east.

[Beirut]

Are you talking about the Jews? ~:)

Oh please... ~;p



The only reason thety are being as you say held prisoner is because their behaving like criminals.

Yep, all those children, hundreds of thousands of them living under the guns of Israeli tanks and snipers, being deprived of the water under their own feet, having their homes destroyed, being brutalized and tortured and killed. Indeed. They're all criminals. Baby criminals and toddler criminals and adolescent criminals. Pregnant women criminals. Old age criminals. Handicapped and wounded by Israeli shellfire criminals. Hell, jail them all and keep them jailed!



The only reason the Palestinians still have theirr land is that the Israelis let them have it.

The benevolance and charity of the Israelis towards the Palestinians is legendary. Hell, I heard the Israelis even torture Palestinians for free. ~:eek:

[sharrukin]

The only thing holding the Palestinians prisoner is their own stupidity and a tendency to murder women and children. Including their own who might not happen to agree with the suicidal policies of the majority.

I think that if some dirt poor Hindu peasant who once had a goat named 'Aji' but managed to hold onto his broken begging bowl can make it, then I think the Palestinians who have received huge amounts of aid and wealth from many different countries can as well.

The EU and it's individual member states have donated $4 billion Euros in the past decade to the Palestinian Authority.
The FPC (Funding for Peace Coalition) has calculated that the Palestinians have received up to $10 billion in international support since 1993. According to Nigel Roberts of the World Bank, this is '...the highest per capita aid transfer in the history of foreign aid anywhere.'

Since 1993, Palestinians have received more than $1.3 billion in U.S. economic assistance via USAID projects - more than from any other donor country.

We know that 850,000 Jews were ejected from the Arab countries where they had lived for hundreds of years. This included successful people whose property and assets, including community assets were immediately confiscated. 750,000 penniless Jews from Arab countries fled to Israel.

Algeria
During the war for Algerian independence from France in the 1950s and early 1960s, Algerian nationalists carried out violent attacks on Algerian Jews. After the French left, the Algerian authorities issued a variety of anti- Jewish decrees, including the imposition of heavy taxes on the Jewish community. Nearly all of Algeria's 160,000 Jews fled the country. All but one of Algeria's synagogues were seized and turned into mosques.

Egypt
The ancient Jewish community of Egypt numbered over 90,000 by the 1940s. Riots by Egyptian nationalists in 1945 claimed many Jewish lives, and synagogues and Jewish buildings were burned down. A new wave of discrimination and violence was unleashed in 1948. Over 250 Jews were killed or injured, Jewish shops were looted, and Jewish assets were frozen. Some 35,000 Jews left Egypt by 1950. Gamal Abdel Nasser, who seized power in 1954, arrested thousands of Jews and confiscated their property. Emigration reduced Egyptian Jewry to just 8,000 by 1957.

Iraq
The Jews of Iraq, with roots dating back to ancient Babylonia, numbered about 190,000 in 1947. When Israel was established, Jewish emigration was forbidden, and hundreds of Jews were jailed. Those convicted of "Zionism" --a criminal offense-- were sentenced to internal exile or fines of up to $40,000 each. Tens of thousands of Jews slipped out of the country. Then, in 1950, the government legalized emigration and pressured the Jews to leave; by 1952, only 6,000 remained. Jewish emigrants were permitted to take with them only $140 per adult; all of their remaining assets and property were confiscated by the Iraqi government.

Libya
The 2,000 year-old Jewish community of Libya, which numbered almost 60,000 by the 1940s, was the target of mass anti-Jewish violence in November 1945. In Tripoli alone, 120 Jews were massacred, over 500 wounded, 2,000 were made homeless, and synagogues were torched. There were more pogroms in January 1946, with 75 Jews massacred in Zanzur, and more than 100 murdered in other towns. By the early 1950s, more than 40,000 Libyan Jews had emigrated.

Morocco
In 1948, there were about 350,000 Jews living in Morocco, a community with ancient roots going back to the time of the destruction of the First Temple (586 BCE). In June 1948, pogromists massacred 39 Jews in the town of Djerada and 4 more in Oujda. Over 50,000 Jews fled Morocco in terror. During the 1950s, there was violence against Jews in Oujda, Rabat, and Casablanca. Most of Moroccan Jewry emigrated during the years to follow.

Syria
There were 17,000 Jews in Syria in 1948, a community dating back to biblical times. Anti-Jewish pogroms erupted in the Syrian town of Aleppo in 1947. All of the local synagogues were destroyed, and 7,000 of the town's 10,000 Jews fled in terror. The government then enacted legislation to freeze Jewish bank accounts and confiscate Jewish property. By the 1950s, just 5,000 Jews remained in Syria, subjected to harsh decrees; they were banned from emigrating, selling their property, or working in government offices, and were compelled to carry special cards identifying them as Jews.

Do you think they should have a right of return? Should they be compensated for what they lost?
Where are your protests of outrage for them. Where are your tears, where's the love?

[Beirut]

The only thing holding the Palestinians prisoner is their own stupidity and a tendency to murder women and children.

Silly me, and all this time I thought it was Israelis tanks and snipers.


Since 1993, Palestinians have received more than $1.3 billion in U.S. economic assistance via USAID projects - more than from any other donor country.

Since 1993 Israel has received about $35,000,000,000 from the US and used part of it to blow everything up that was built with the money the Palestinians received. They used part of the rest to finance illegal settlements, the Wall, and to finance water theft projects.


Algeria. Egypt. Iraq. Libya. Morocco. Syria.

I've never defended anything those countries did and am not going to start now.


Where are your protests of outrage for them. Where are your tears, where's the love?

I've got lots of love. :sweetheart: But most of it is directed towards the Palestinians. I fight for them. And you, showing an equitable balance in these affairs, fight for the dispossessed Jews. I'd say we have the bases covered being the good Canadians that we are. ~:cheers:

[Gawain of Orkeny]

The big difference here is that the Jews took in their refugees and didnt use them as political foder. Their not making ridiculous claims for a right to return. They just want to live in peace where they are.They take care of their own. Muslims and Arabs could maybe learn something from them.

[sharrukin]

Since 1993 Israel has received about $35,000,000,000 from the US and used part of it to blow everything up that was built with the money the Palestinians received. They used part of the rest to finance illegal settlements, the Wall, and to finance water theft projects.

I've got lots of love. :sweetheart: But most of it is directed towards the Palestinians. I fight for them. And you, showing an equitable balance in these affairs, fight for the dispossessed Jews. I'd say we have the bases covered being the good Canadians that we are. ~:cheers:

I don't carry any torch for the dispossessed Jews. What I do see is that Isreal is a friend and ally, The 'friends and allies' in the Arab states such as Saudia Arabia, Pakistan are the kind of friends who stick with you as long as your wallet lasts. The Palestinians are not even fairweather friends. They are our enemy and have proclaimed themselves such many times and their actions are clear enough. This is the reason the Isreali's get the big bucks. I for one see no reason to be nice to our enemies in the hopes they won't hurt us quite as bad as they might have. I will that that to the Europeans as it seems to be a tradition there. You would think they at least would have learned something from Munich. Nor do I see any reason in being hostile to our friends. I for one would not be supplying the Isreali's with large amounts of cash as it is poor policy, but that's another story.

Do you think the Jews expelled from Arab lands should have a right of return? Should they be compensated for what they lost?

[Beirut]

The big difference here is that the Jews took in their refugees and didnt use them as political foder.

The Palestinians would be happy to welcome back other Palestinians into palestine I'm sure.


Their not making ridiculous claims for a right to return.

Pardon me? What do you call Zionists saying "There were some Jews here 2000 years ago so we want the whole place back for ourselves and bring in people from ten thousand miles away who have never even heard of the place after we boot out the locals."? That's the uber-ultra-mega right of return statement of all time.



They just want to live in peace where they are.

Then they should get the hell out of Palestine! Except they don't want peace. They want control.


They take care of their own.

Indeed. Some of the thousands and thousands of Palestinian children injured and crippled by Israeli weapons could vouch for this.


Muslims and Arabs could maybe learn something from them.

Like what? How to shmooze three billion a year from the US? How to lay a worldwide guilt trip on every single person everywhere? How to imprison an entire people for generations and make yourself look like the victim? How to be the most efficient killers in the region? Which lesson is it you want people to learn from them?

[Steppe Merc]

Do you think the Jews expelled from Arab lands should have a right of return? Should they be compensated for what they lost?
How long ago were they expelled? If you look at any piece of land, countless of racial, ethnic and political bodies could lay legal claim to it. How far can you go back?
They should certaintly have the right to return, and they certaintly should be compenstated. But will they be compensated? Doubtful.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

The Palestinians would be happy to welcome back other Palestinians into palestine I'm sure.

I doubt if any would want to move there. Remember its a prison.


Pardon me? What do you call Zionists saying "There were some Jews here 2000 years ago so we want the whole place back for ourselves and bring in people from ten thousand miles away who have never even heard of the place after we boot out the locals."? That's the uber-ultra-mega right of return statement of all time.

Thats zionism not the policy of the government of Israel. Its old and a very poor argument concerning todays problems.



Then they should get the hell out of Palestine! Except they don't want peace. They want control.

Palestine is a very elusive term. Exactly where are you speaking about? Again theres nothing stopping them from anexing all of the westbank much as you seem to say they want to control it.


Indeed. Some of the thousands and thousands of Palestinian children injured and crippled by Israeli weapons could vouch for this.

Thats all you have on your side is emotial rehtoric. The Israeilis have lost many women and children who were intentionaly targeted by Palestinians. The point is that the arabs could have taken in these refugees. You know as well as I do the game their palying here. Using the poor Palestinians as pawns in a much bigger game.


Like what? How to shmooze three billion a year from the US?

I think they get more than that. Egypt alone I believe get 2 billion.


How to imprison an entire people for generations and make yourself look like the victim? How to be the most efficient killers in the region? Which lesson is it you want people to learn from them?

Again you act barbaric you get treated as barbarians. Its the terror and the terror alone that causes their problems. You seem as blind as they to the cause of the never ending problem there.

[sharrukin]

How long ago were they expelled? If you look at any piece of land, countless of racial, ethnic and political bodies could lay legal claim to it. How far can you go back?
They should certaintly have the right to return, and they certaintly should be compenstated. But will they be compensated? Doubtful.

That is exactly my point with regards to the Jews expelled in the 1950's and 60's from Arab lands and the Arabs expelled from Palestine in 1948. My opinion is that the right of return is pointless as they will simply be hounded out again. At some point you have to stop and get on with life, and let the past become history.

[Steppe Merc]

I'm not entirely sure on how I stand with disenfranchised peoples, I was just pointing out the fact that you can't always return native (whatever that means) people's lands to those natives.
However, wasn't the argument for Isreal in the first place was to return Jews to their homeland? I might be incorrect, but that is far less legally binding and logical than Palestinains getting at least compensated for their damaged, lost and stolen property.

[PanzerJaeger]

And of all these groups which ones are still refugees? One single group of people have claim to that dubious honour. The Palestinians!


Are the Hindu's and Moslems of the Indian subcontinent so much richer and better off than the Palestinians? NO! Are the Palestinians the stupidest people on earth? Well, their leadership might take that prize but I don't think they as a people are.

So what in hell are they all doing in so-called refugee camps that look striking like Arab villages from throughout the middle east? This is 57 years later. This sounds more like a political game played by the Palestinian leadership at the expense of the Palestinian people.

The Palestinians attempted to overthrow the Jordanian government in 1970 and when they were expelled from their they went to lebanon where they cheerfully helped dismantle the government. So what Arab government in their right mind would even want them around? Their leadership is directly responsible for much of the plight they find themselves in. Many other groups have 'been done wrong' and have gotten on with life. Every single other group of people mistreated from the 1940's and 50's have gone on to make a better future for themselves.

It's time for the Palestinians to get over it. Everyone else did, and some of them had a hell of a lot more to snivel about.

Wonderful post. :thumbsup:

[Tribesman]

Again theres nothing stopping them from anexing all of the westbank
Oh yeah , they could annex it alright , then what ?
Expel all the Palestinians , that would go down really well .
Give them citizenship ? Can't do that there are too many of them it would make the Jews a minority again and a democratically elected government would be Muslim dominated .
Keep them all there without the vote as second class citizens ? Very nice .

So tell us Gawain how can Israel annex the West Bank ?

Apart from the fact that Isreal signed up to a paper which prohibits annexing land by force , oh it also prohibits moving your civilian population into occupied territory . OOOps .... Now where didi I put that settlement~D
But of course these ideas were only to intended to stop countries after a bigger living-room ~;)

[Tribesman]

Wonderful post
Yes apart from a few little details , like giving a figure for Non-Muslims fleeing from one part of the country that is near the top estimate for all people of all religeons fleeing within the whole sub-continent . It also doesn't take note that just like Palestine they have been fighting over the partition for the past 50 years , with massacres and atrocities that make Palestine look like a holiday camp .
Sooo..... just another wonderful example of the long term conflict that happens when you partition an area .

[sharrukin]

And of all these groups which ones are still refugees? One single group of people have claim to that dubious honour. The Palestinians!

Wonderful post. :thumbsup:

Well I thought so, but apparently not everyone is of that opinion.

This is a Kenyan refugee camp;
http://img263.echo.cx/img263/8251/kenyanrefugeecamp2cy.th.jpg (http://img263.echo.cx/my.php?image=kenyanrefugeecamp2cy.jpg)

This is an Afghani refugee camp;
http://img263.echo.cx/img263/4407/refugeecampnearmazar5gu.th.jpg (http://img263.echo.cx/my.php?image=refugeecampnearmazar5gu.jpg)

This is an Arab village;
http://img263.echo.cx/img263/8682/village26ek.th.jpg (http://img263.echo.cx/my.php?image=village26ek.jpg)

This is what is called a Palestinian refugee camp;
http://img263.echo.cx/img263/682/einessultanrefugeecamp1wi.th.jpg (http://img263.echo.cx/my.php?image=einessultanrefugeecamp1wi.jpg)

[Beirut]

Thats zionism not the policy of the government of Israel. Its old and a very poor argument concerning todays problems.

Palestine is a very elusive term. Exactly where are you speaking about? Again theres nothing stopping them from anexing all of the westbank much as you seem to say they want to control it.

It is still the root cause of the entire problem.



Thats all you have on your side is emotial rehtoric. The Israeilis have lost many women and children who were intentionaly targeted by Palestinians. The point is that the arabs could have taken in these refugees.

You have your emotional rhetoric and I have mine. ~;)

Besides, why should the other Arab countries have to take them in? if I steal from you, is it Panzerjager's duty to make up your loss?


I think they get more than that. Egypt alone I believe get 2 billion.

I wish they'd send some of those greenbacks my way. :saint:


Again you act barbaric you get treated as barbarians. Its the terror and the terror alone that causes their problems. You seem as blind as they to the cause of the never ending problem there.

The fundemental reason for everything going on between the Palestinians and the Israelis is that the Israelis are stealing Palestinian land and resources and brutalizing the people and won't get the hell out.

You say the terror is the cause, but you have said that times were very good for the Palestinians before the Intifada, that means there was a modicum of peace. But during those times the Israelis didn't leave the occupied territories, on the contrary, they built more and more illegal settlements and imposed harsher laws regarding day to day life in the territories. So if the Israelis won't leave when times are good and they won't leave when times are bad... when the hell are they going to leave?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

It is still the root cause of the entire problem.

No the root of the problem is Palestinian terrorism


Besides, why should the other Arab countries have to take them in? if I steal from you, is it Panzerjager's duty to make up your loss?

Well if I stole it from someone else a.nd never even ha.d title to it is it really mine? Besides if I were in need Im sure Panzer would gladly lend me a hand


The fundemental reason for everything going on between the Palestinians and the Israelis is that the Israelis are stealing Palestinian land and resources and brutalizing the people and won't get the hell out.....

No once more the reason is Palestinian terrorism. Did the Israelis one day just decide that they would march in and start brutalizing Palestinians for no reason. Are they even more barbaric than the Palestinians? I dont think so. According to thinking like that we brutalized the Japanese and the Germans after WW2. There was a war and the Palestinian side lost. The Israelis are the winners. Its a fact that in war the winners make the terms not the losers. S.top giving these people hope. You are and people like you are directly responsibe for causing the deathsd of people on both sides. Until the Palestinains and all terrorists rea.lise tha.t the world wont put up with their shite they will continue their barbaric practices. Yes I hold YOU responsible. The Israelis have control of their government and people. If they make an agreement their government is capable of upholding it. The Palestinans cant do the same. Until they take control of themselves and take responsibility for their a.ctions theres nothing anyone else can do to help them.

[Steppe Merc]

Gawain, both sides are at fault. The Isreali government for acting horribley, and certaint Palestinians for acting equally as bad. And the point is the people, not the leadership of the people. The people need help, not whoever is in charge of them.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Gawain, both sides are at fault.

I never said different.


And the point is the people, not the leadership of the people.

Thats what I said . Until the Palestinian people get decent leadership their doomed.


The people need help, not whoever is in charge of them.

How do we help them. Theve already been sent more aid than any other nation per capita. God helps those who help themselves. They need to get a grip on themselves. They have to get over the attitube that Beruit has of the Jews stole my land and realise if they want their country the terror has to stop. That is the only way this will ever work. All the rest is just hot air and will get them no where.

[Goofball]

Wow there are some ungrateful people in here. If I supported a group of downtrodden people and Bush sent them 50 million I would at least restrain myself. But no, were still bad, hes still evil, blah blah blah.. You wonder why we arent as giving to people, its because they take our money with no problems but then spin things to where we are still the bad guys.

Well I dipped my toes in the waters of the Israel/Palestine argument a little bit in this thread, but will do so no more.

I have to say that I agree with Panzer here. The fact that there are those who have still managed to find a way to criticize the U.S. for trying to reach out by giving $50 million to a group of people who at best are indifferent to America and her interests and at worst harbor a strong hatred for everything America stands for, shows me that some people simply don't have it in their souls to ever admit that the U.S. might have done a good thing.

As I said before $50 million isn't going to solve a whole lot of problems, but it's a good start.

[Steppe Merc]

When someone pledges a certaint amount, it often falls short, no? Or am I mistaken?


How do we help them. Theve already been sent more aid than any other nation per capita. God helps those who help themselves. They need to get a grip on themselves. They have to get over the attitube that Beruit has of the Jews stole my land and realise if they want their country the terror has to stop. That is the only way this will ever work. All the rest is just hot air and will get them no where.
Hmm. Well we could help them by getting Isreal off their back a little. Though I do think that they need a good government that will be willing to work out something that is best for the people.

[Beirut]

They need to get a grip on themselves.

Interesting. How does one get a grip on one's self while another has a steel gloved hand tightly around your throat?


They have to get over the attitube that Beruit has of the Jews stole my land and realise if they want their country the terror has to stop.

What country? It was carved up like a roast and fed to the predators sixty years ago courtesy of the UN. They only have the table scraps left. And the Israelis are even stealing those!

It can also be voiced that if the Israelis want the terror to stop, maybe they should stop with the torture and the imprisonments and the raids and the humilations and the theft of land and water and the draconian laws. Remember, Israel is occupying Palestine, not the other way around.


That is the only way this will ever work. All the rest is just hot air and will get them no where.

Indeed. It's plain to see a lucid argument concerning basic human rights will go nowhere with the Israelis.

"Um, could you stop torturing and killing us please?"

"Oh shut up, that's just a lot of hot air."

[PanzerJaeger]

I have to say that I agree with Panzer here.

I just saw a pig fly by my window.. ~:eek:

[Beirut]

Must be The Floyd.