Australian convicted of drug smuggling

[Hurin_Rules]

Schapelle Corby was sentenced to 20 years for smuggling drugs into Bali:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/asiapcf/05/27/corby.appeal/index.html

I post this because I've read a lot about the media and case, but very little about the details of the case itself. What exactly was her defense? Does anyone know what the evidence was like?

[Beirut]

I've read only a little about this case, but the question arises - why would anyone go near that place with thoughts of dealing drugs when they know bloody well what the penalties are?

It's like killing someone in Texas and then being surprised that they execute you. :dizzy2:

[Lazul]

20!?... 20 years?

what a screwed up system. I feel sorry for her. :bow:

[Kraxis]

Damn, that was heavy... But given how a couple of Danes got life for a few hundred grams of heroin (and trust me they were guilty) in Thailand... Well I'm not that surprised.
I really feel for her if it is true that she is innocent. That would be horrible.

[Crazed Rabbit]

her defense argument that the drugs found in her possession were planted by baggage handlers in Australia.

Hmm. I don't know if Aussie baggers are special, but I've never heard of that before. Why would they put expensive drugs in her bag?


I've read only a little about this case, but the question arises - why would anyone go near that place with thoughts of dealing drugs when they know bloody well what the penalties are?

It's like killing someone in Texas and then being surprised that they execute you.

Really. I have a hard time feeling lots of sympathy for her-its not like they make the laws unclear.

I know that in one south east Asian country, they have signs saying death to drug dealers on the borders to show what the penalty is, yet some still do it...

If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

Crazed Rabbit

[Devastatin Dave]

Good, this is what should be done to all druggies and peddlers of this sh##. IN fact, I think they should make the dealers OD on their own sh##...

[Husar]

Hmm. I don't know if Aussie baggers are special, but I've never heard of that before. Why would they put expensive drugs in her bag?


Well, they put them in there and get them back as soon as she is in the country, so they don´t run any risk of getting caught themselves. If she gets in, they get a lot of money, if she doesn´t, they lose the drugs, but can try again while she has the problems.

I agree with Kraxis in case she´s innocent, I feel very sorry for her.

BTW has anyone seen the film Brokedown Palace? It deals with a similar case, where innocent tourists are used to transpport drugs for the real dealer.(I watched it mainly for Kate Beckinsale ~D , but the story was quite interesting as well.)

[GoreBag]

"Dismissed key evidence"? Interesting.

In any case, 20 years for pot is harsh.

EDIT:
Good, this is what should be done to all druggies and peddlers of this sh##. IN fact, I think they should make the dealers OD on their own sh##...

When was the last time someone OD'ed on marijuana, anyway?

[lars573]

20!?... 20 years?

what a screwed up system. I feel sorry for her. :bow:


"Dismissed key evidence"? Interesting.

In any case, 20 years for pot is harsh.

She should be glad she didn't get caught with the stuff in Maylasia where they hang you by the neck until dead for the same crime.

[Productivity]

Her defence was that they were not her drugs. It is thought (and emerging evidence seems to indicate this) that baggage handlers in Australian airports are using innocent people's luggage to smuggle drugs around Australia. I would put the chances at 95% to 5% that she's innocent. This whole thing defies logic. You don't smuggle pot into Bali, you smuggle it out of there.

The real outrage is that she has been found guilty, and this is due to Indonesia's justice system, which I can only describe as being backwards and unfair. In the eyes of it, she was found with the drugs, so the onus upon her is to prove they were not hers. This is something impossible to prove, and is demonstrated by one of the record of one of the judges on this trial (~500 guilty verdicts vs 0 innocent).

I don't disagree with Indonesia's right to set it's own penalties, so I'm not going to criticise them for the severity of the sentence. 20 years for pot may be excessive in your view, but in the eyes of Indonesians it's not, and I see no reason why you should be able to force your view upon them.

I really don't know what to say, I'm outraged here, a girl who is almost certainly innocent, has just been convicted based on evidence that would never hold up in any first world justice system, and is going to serve twenty years for it. Indonesia is seriously going to have to rethink it's relationship with Au, because the majority of the Australian public are seriously angry.

[LittleGrizzly]

20 years for pot, thats a bit sick, though if i spent the 20 years with them trying to OD me on it, it wouldn't be so bad.

[Efrem]

What is causing most of the public outcry in Australia,
Is that a cleric that orders a bombing where in 300 people are killed gets a couple of years, but a bag of pot, without her thumbprints on it mind you and the prosectution is applealing because she didn't get life.

Its about time we started doing some more east timor like stuff. One Howards greatest accomplishments is his "f**k Indosnesia" policy.

[bmolsson]

What is causing most of the public outcry in Australia,
Is that a cleric that orders a bombing where in 300 people are killed gets a couple of years, but a bag of pot, without her thumbprints on it mind you and the prosectution is applealing because she didn't get life.


Bashyir was not convicted for the bombing, only for instigating it. He was also convicted for leading the JI organisation, but it's not proven that that organisation actually was behind it. The refusal to have Hambali to testify was a big portion of this.



Its about time we started doing some more east timor like stuff. One Howards greatest accomplishments is his "f**k Indosnesia" policy.


Which gives this Australian girl a even smaller chance to take the jail term in Australia. Actually she could have gotten death penalty for this.

[Efrem]

that it could have been worse makes it no better

[bmolsson]

Her defence was that they were not her drugs. It is thought (and emerging evidence seems to indicate this) that baggage handlers in Australian airports are using innocent people's luggage to smuggle drugs around Australia. I would put the chances at 95% to 5% that she's innocent. This whole thing defies logic. You don't smuggle pot into Bali, you smuggle it out of there.


If you ever been at the airport in Denpasar, you would not see her story as very realistic. You actually have to carry the bagage your self through customs. That would mean that the receiver of the drugs really must know who she is, where she lives and then steal the bags.
All arrivals have to fill in and sign a form where it clearly states that there is a death penalty for all drug trafficking. Also you have to answer if the bags are yours and if they have been tampered with.

The Indonesian legal system is actually very weak, but in the sense that it's harder to be convicted rather than the opposite. Over 90% of all cases are built on the chargeds confession.

The drug laws in Indonesia is insane, no doubt about it, but they are very clearly stated to everyone. The tolerance are more or less 0......

[bmolsson]

that it could have been worse makes it no better

Well, it shows that the Indonesian courts are weak and become lenient due to foreign pressure..... ~;)

[Fragony]

Well if that is the penalty indonesia gives for that sort of thing it is pretty stupid to smuggle drugs. Their system, it may be harsh but those are their laws. If she is innocent then this is a big tragedy. Guilty or not, I feel sorry for her.

This whole thing defies logic. You don't smuggle pot into Bali, you smuggle it out of there.

Not necesarely, Indonisian pot is rubbish. Australian pot is worth pretty much over there, loads of tourists.

[GodsPetMonkey]

Well if that is the penalty indonesia gives for that sort of thing it is pretty stupid to smuggle drugs. Their system, it may be harsh but those are their laws. If she is innocent then this is a big tragedy. Guilty or not, I feel sorry for her.

This whole thing defies logic. You don't smuggle pot into Bali, you smuggle it out of there.

Not necesarely, Indonisian pot is rubbish. Australian pot is worth pretty much over there, loads of tourists.

Pot isn't as common as one might think in Bali either, whats more, I doubt she would be the first tourist with the bright idea of bringing some and selling it to other tourists...

[Fragony]

Pot isn't as common as one might think in Bali either, whats more, I doubt she would be the first tourist with the bright idea of bringing some and selling it to other tourists...

I think she is guilty. If the uggage guys put it there it must be part of a bigger operation, on the other side they would have to work with the indonesian luggage guys. When she reached the customs it would allready have been taken out. Just a silly girl if you ask me, I can understand autralia's outrage since it is such a high penalty, but she was in indonesia and we should respect their laws. I hope indonesia will be a sport and let her sit out part of her punnishment in australia. She seems like a nice girl.

[Productivity]

If you ever been at the airport in Denpasar, you would not see her story as very realistic. You actually have to carry the bagage your self through customs. That would mean that the receiver of the drugs really must know who she is, where she lives and then steal the bags.
All arrivals have to fill in and sign a form where it clearly states that there is a death penalty for all drug trafficking. Also you have to answer if the bags are yours and if they have been tampered with.


You are misunderstanding my point. It's internal smuggling, she went Brisbane->Sydney->Bali->Gaol (yes I'm a bad many I know ~;)), the idea was that the smugglers put it in the bags in Brisbane, and were meant to take it out in Sydney. Somehow the bag got missed and she ended up with a bag full of pot.


What is causing most of the public outcry in Australia,
Is that a cleric that orders a bombing where in 300 people are killed gets a couple of years, but a bag of pot, without her thumbprints on it mind you and the prosectution is applealing because she didn't get life.

That's not why I'm annoyed. Quite frankly the western world, and in particular Australia has been going off at Indonesia to improve it's justice system for years. Bashir getting 3 years was a product of that. I agree it's wrong, but I'd take that over a corrupt decision being made to appease us. They applied the rules correctly as they were at the time. They have nwo realised they were insufficient and changed them, but they cannot be applied retrospectively.


Its about time we started doing some more east timor like stuff. One Howards greatest accomplishments is his "f**k Indosnesia" policy.

Right, we should break off all relations with our nearest neighbour, one with huge capacity for trade, not to mention us doing that would just help to create a breeding ground for terrorists. Great logic that... :dizzy2:

[barocca]

baggage handler organised smuggling is old news here in Oz,
it has been happening for years

baggage handlers (until last week) were not watched by video and were not searched coming to airport, or leaving airport

ever wondered where lost luggage goes?
it goes home with the baggage handlers...


Corby got on the plane at Brisbane
brisbane baggage handlers put the drugs in her unlocked bag

she changed planes in Sydney
the baggage handlers in Sydney are supposed to take the drugs out of her bags
they failed to do so

at Bali customs found the drugs and arrested her



one person on the fringes of the smuggling gave evidence in her defence,
many people testified there was nothing unusual about her bag when it was in Brisbane, before being loaded on plane

pot in Oz is VERY expensive
pot in Bali is VERY cheap
smuggling $20K of pot into Bali where it would sell for under$5k? ludicrous to suggest.

the customs officers failed to turn on the video equipment when they searched her luggage

customs officers failed to secure the bag or drugs for fingerprint testing
(so many fingerprints on it by the time got around to that - well, useless to test it really)

her advocate during the searching procedure claims she said "not mine, i know nothing"
ONE Customs officer claims she said, "yes, my drugs"


Court dismissed all defence evidence and witnesses as immaterial,
and convicted her on the word of the customs officer who claims she said "yes, my drugs"


There is no jury in Indonesia - the judge is the jury.

The Lead Judge has never found a single person innocent in over 500 drug cases he has tried.

The Lead Judge actively brags about his "perfect" record of convictions.


draw your own conclusions,
mine??
lots of em :- the Judge would be reluctant to ruin his perfect record (for one)

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

Couldn't the Australians just petition the Indonesians to let her serve her sentence over here, and then release her when they hand her over? It might cause a bit of a, you know, international incident, but it'd be a pretty cool play.

[Productivity]

Couldn't the Australians just petition the Indonesians to let her serve her sentence over here, and then release her when they hand her over? It might cause a bit of a, you know, international incident, but it'd be a pretty cool play.

Not worth it over one person... And then what happens if something similar happens again? The second person is really in trouble...

[Sir Moody]

Am i the only person here who find this so called "key" evidence massivly weak - Basically its the Testimony of a Convicted baggage handler and the fact none of her finger prints are on the Drugs...

that doesnt actually prove anything - unless they could produce the people who actually planted the drugs there is no defence case....

[doc_bean]

I agree that her defense is very weak, and if baggage handlers are such a problem in Australia, the government should have done something about it long ago. But if that's the case, i doubt she'd be the first person this happened to.

They'll probably arrange some prisoners exchange program, and make everybody happy.

BTW if you enter Indonesia, before you sign that paper detailing their drug laws, do you get the chance to check your bags and hand over any pot (without charge or persecution) if you find any ? If so then i would say they have a fair system.

[Productivity]

Am i the only person here who find this so called "key" evidence massivly weak - Basically its the Testimony of a Convicted baggage handler and the fact none of her finger prints are on the Drugs...

that doesnt actually prove anything - unless they could produce the people who actually planted the drugs there is no defence case....

Which means that it is impossible to prove yourself innocent for the most, as evidenced by the conviction rate of the Indonesian justice system. In my view it's a flawed justice system.

[Devastatin Dave]

Well, I guess when she gets out in 20 years she won't go to anymore 3rd world hell holes for holiday. She could come to the US and just have to spend a couple of months [...] in one of our prisons for weed and be on her way.

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

Is Indonesia really a third world hell hole? I don't imagine it is.

[BDC]

Is Indonesia really a third world hell hole? I don't imagine it is.
It will be now that no western tourists go there anymore. And no governments are going to want to give them aid for anything because it will look bad.

[Hurin_Rules]

When was the last time someone OD'ed on marijuana, anyway?

Never. You can't OD on THC.

[GoreBag]

Never. You can't OD on THC.

That's what I thought. Good policy, then, DD.

[sharrukin]

It's none of our business telling them what their laws should be any more than it is for some nations to be telling us that our women should wear veils. As to this lady I have doubts as to her guilt and innocence. Too many western governments and individuals have a habit of trying to keep vital information out of the headlines in cases such as these. For example does she have a criminal record for drug use in Australia and other questions that should be asked but too often are not? On the other hand putting my life into the hands of the Indonesian justice system however, is not something I would feel comfortable doing.

DGB if it was internal smuggling why not just load it into a car along with 200 more pounds of the stuff and drive it up? It avoids going through airports and would seem to be safer.

[GodsPetMonkey]

DGB if it was internal smuggling why not just load it into a car along with 200 more pounds of the stuff and drive it up? It avoids going through airports and would seem to be safer.

Which is the biggest question I have, it seems totally stupid to smuggle dope on domestic flight. It takes what, 10 hours to drive from the Gold Coast to Sydney, and there are a total of 0 customs checks, and the police can only search your car if you have a warrant (so if you keep the stuff out of sight, your pretty safe). Why on earth would you put it on a plane?

[Productivity]

I'm not sure for QLD/NSW, but crossing WA/SA or WA/NT borders here can entail a full car search. Why would it be safer? There are no cameras, nothing on the bagagge handlers. At worst the pot gets found, and they know it's the baggage handlers, but they can't tell who it is.


It's none of our business telling them what their laws should be any more than it is for some nations to be telling us that our women should wear veils.

True, it's not. But I wont be travelling there, as I don't approve of the system.


For example does she have a criminal record for drug use in Australia and other questions that should be asked but too often are not?

No she doesn't.


DGB if it was internal smuggling why not just load it into a car along with 200 more pounds of the stuff and drive it up? It avoids going through airports and would seem to be safer.

I'm not sure for QLD/NSW, but crossing WA/SA or WA/NT borders here can entail a full car search. Why would it be safer? There are no cameras, nothing on the bagagge handlers. At worst the pot gets found, and they know it's the baggage handlers, but they can't tell who it is.

For those who doubt the idea about the baggage handlers, note that there have now been arrests of baggage handlers for precisely this reason (they were smuggling drugs around the country).

Similar situations have happened before, without them being caught.

[QUOTE=ABC News (http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200505/s1378411.htm) May 8, 2005: The Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade confirms a man rang the Australian consulate in Bali in 1997, when he found a package of marijuana in his bag after flying in from Melbourne. DFAT told the man one of his options was to flush the drugs down the toilet.[/QUOTE]

[sharrukin]

No she doesn't.

I'm not sure for QLD/NSW, but crossing WA/SA or WA/NT borders here can entail a full car search. Why would it be safer? There are no cameras, nothing on the bagagge handlers. At worst the pot gets found, and they know it's the baggage handlers, but they can't tell who it is.

For those who doubt the idea about the baggage handlers, note that there have now been arrests of baggage handlers for precisely this reason (they were smuggling drugs around the country).

Quote:
Originally Posted by [URL=http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200505/s1378411.htm
ABC News[/URL] May 8, 2005: The Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade confirms a man rang the Australian consulate in Bali in 1997, when he found a package of marijuana in his bag after flying in from Melbourne. DFAT told the man one of his options was to flush the drugs down the toilet.

Similar situations have happened before, without them being caught.

Well it does sound like the internal smuggling is a possibility then and if others have found the same thing in their luggage then that too is sounding more and more possible! If she has no criminal record that would tend to give more credence to her being innocent.

I am from Canada and the idea of having border checks between provinces is a strange one.

[Productivity]

I am from Canada and the idea of having border checks between provinces is a strange one.

Well it's for quarantine purposes but if your car gets searched, chances are you will have your pot found. WA is particularly pristine naturally, compared to the rest of Australia (or the world for that matter), so we check the borders so people don't bring in fruit (containing pests) etc. We also have border patrols that shoot starlings that try to fly over the border etc. to try and keep the natural environment from damage.

[sharrukin]

We also have border patrols that shoot starlings that try to fly over the border etc. to try and keep the natural environment from damage.
Australians really aren't like other people are they?

[Productivity]

Australians really aren't like other people are they?

I'm actually proud that we care about our environment enough to try and protect it...

[GodsPetMonkey]

I'm not sure for QLD/NSW, but crossing WA/SA or WA/NT borders here can entail a full car search. Why would it be safer? There are no cameras, nothing on the bagagge handlers. At worst the pot gets found, and they know it's the baggage handlers, but they can't tell who it is.


Us in the east don’t call Western Australia 'the police state' for nothing!

There are border checking stations, but they are for livestock and commercial quantities of plants/plant material (and Joe drug runner aint going to declare his stash!).

There is a random chance of you being searched when entering the no fruit fly zone, but they are looking for fruit.



For those who doubt the idea about the baggage handlers, note that there have now been arrests of baggage handlers for precisely this reason (they were smuggling drugs around the country).

If your talking about the recent case, there was one arrest, from the international terminal in Sydney, dealing with an organised cartel smuggling cocaine in from South America, and my information is that they were not putting it into random passengers bags (when your moving $3-million in cocaine, your not going to take any chances). The Federal Police Commissioner was correct when he said the cases were totally unrelated...

[Productivity]

Us in the east don’t call Western Australia 'the police state' for nothing!

There are border checking stations, but they are for livestock and commercial quantities of plants/plant material (and Joe drug runner aint going to declare his stash!).

There is a random chance of you being searched when entering the no fruit fly zone, but they are looking for fruit.

Well if you think of WA's entirety as a no fruit fly zone you get the idea.




If your talking about the recent case, there was one arrest, from the international terminal in Sydney, dealing with an organised cartel smuggling cocaine in from South America, and my information is that they were not putting it into random passengers bags (when your moving $3-million in cocaine, your not going to take any chances). The Federal Police Commissioner was correct when he said the cases were totally unrelated...

Yes I agree they aren't related, but it shows that there is illegal activity going on within the baggage handling system.

[barocca]

the girl has no criminal record with drugs,
and none at all as far as we know...

she tested totally negative for drugs consumption,
marijuana stays in bloodstream for 60 days? 90? she was clean


Australia is a nation of Port Cities, these cities can be 1000/2000 kilometeres from one another
introduced pests and parasites are a major problem here
(bio-safety is almost non-existent - if the exporter/importers say the stuff is uncontaminated then they let in - how stupid is that?)
i have a colony of lizards in my house, everyone within 5 miles of here has the same thing, they are not natives but are thriving, they are slowly exterminating the native lizards - but we like them because they eat spiders and mosquitoes, where the native lizards dont...

a pest that gets introduced in QLD may not get introduced in NSW

it was not so long ago there were random stops and checks for fruit and flowers when travelling from QLD to NSW (and vice-versa)
- the last time i went down to the border the signs and pull-over places still existed.


you have to pay someone to spend 14 hours on the road, plus petrol, car repairs, food etc etc to ship the stuff by road,
then what do you do if the courier rips you off? and if he gets stopped by police and searched - for sure he'll give you up...
chuck it in some poor slobs luggage? a few bucks to the baggage handlers and the stuff is delivered an hour or two later

and it's not just drugs being moved this way,
"suspect" property gets moved the same way, anything up to the size of a PC tower. Hell "suspect" property is traded between NZ and AUS in the same way.
the Feds KNOW all of this, and have known it for 3 years (that i know of) - so why do they say it is not happening?
Why did the top Fed hang Corby out to dry by claiming again and again and again that it was not happening??

[barocca]

my post on the first page of this thread got cut off duer to a technical glitch

so, to save you all having to go back and find it

here is the chopped off bit

pot in Oz is VERY expensive
pot in Bali is VERY cheap
smuggling $20K of pot into Bali where it would sell for under$5k? ludicrous to suggest.

the customs officers failed to turn on the video equipment when they searched her luggage

customs officers failed to secure the bag or drugs for fingerprint testing
(so many fingerprints on it by the time got around to that - well, useless to test it really)

her advocate during the searching procedure claims she said "not mine, i know nothing"
ONE Customs officer claims she said, "yes, my drugs"


Court dismissed all defence evidence and witnesses as immaterial,
and convicted her on the word of the customs officer who claims she said "yes, my drugs"


There is no jury in Indonesia - the judge is the jury.

The Lead Judge has never found a single person innocent in over 500 drug cases he has tried.

The Lead Judge actively brags about his "perfect" record of convictions.


draw your own conclusions,
mine??
lots of em :- the Judge would be reluctant to ruin his perfect record (for one)

[Efrem]

You are misunderstanding my point. It's internal smuggling, she went Brisbane->Sydney->Bali->Gaol (yes I'm a bad many I know ~;)), the idea was that the smugglers put it in the bags in Brisbane, and were meant to take it out in Sydney. Somehow the bag got missed and she ended up with a bag full of pot.



That's not why I'm annoyed. Quite frankly the western world, and in particular Australia has been going off at Indonesia to improve it's justice system for years. Bashir getting 3 years was a product of that. I agree it's wrong, but I'd take that over a corrupt decision being made to appease us. They applied the rules correctly as they were at the time. They have nwo realised they were insufficient and changed them, but they cannot be applied retrospectively.



Right, we should break off all relations with our nearest neighbour, one with huge capacity for trade, not to mention us doing that would just help to create a breeding ground for terrorists. Great logic that... :dizzy2:


No, not break of all relations, But activly support the breakup of Indonesia by supporting the separitist movements all over. As Per East Timor. Indonesia is a far worse terrorists producer now than it would be if dissolved into multiple smaller countries and given a uncorrupt regime.

[sharrukin]

No, not break of all relations, But activly support the breakup of Indonesia by supporting the separitist movements all over. As Per East Timor. Indonesia is a far worse terrorists producer now than it would be if dissolved into multiple smaller countries and given a uncorrupt regime.

You mean like Afghanistan or Lebanon or Somalia or the Congo or Yugoslavia or the Soviet Central Asian Republics? Be careful what you wish for you just might get it!

[GodsPetMonkey]

it was not so long ago there were random stops and checks for fruit and flowers when travelling from QLD to NSW (and vice-versa)
- the last time i went down to the border the signs and pull-over places still existed.


Never seen, nor heard of, anyone being stopped... apart from large trucks... it's just not that big a deal (and I have crossed the border hundreds of times).
The cops are to busy setting speed traps on the way into Tweed Heads, and at various points on the highway on the Gold Coast to care about people bringing plants over the border...



you have to pay someone to spend 14 hours on the road, plus petrol, car repairs, food etc etc to ship the stuff by road,
then what do you do if the courier rips you off? and if he gets stopped by police and searched - for sure he'll give you up...
chuck it in some poor slobs luggage? a few bucks to the baggage handlers and the stuff is delivered an hour or two later


Having spent some time of my life near Nimbin (in a place called Lismore to be precise, if you know the region) I can tell you it takes about 9 hours to drive to Sydney, and on Thursday evenings you can spot the cars heading towards the Gold Coast with stashes of pot... it's not exactly the regions best kept secret... find a teen/young adult who needs a quick $500 and has a car, get him to take a large amount of pot-in-a-bag to someone on the Gold Coast... if you want to see it in practice, spend a night in the Conrad Jupiters car park, and spot the number of transactions that go on...
The trips to Sydney, being longer, are normally done in 4WDs (more storage space), and the smugglers are smart.... despite the occasional bust.



the Feds KNOW all of this, and have known it for 3 years (that i know of) - so why do they say it is not happening?
Why did the top Fed hang Corby out to dry by claiming again and again and again that it was not happening??

Of course the federal police have investigated it... the reason nothing has been done is the reason why Corby's defence needed to rely on hearsay from a witness as their key evidence... there's nothing concrete to go with. It's not just the prosecution that needs to provide reliable evidence.

[Productivity]

No, not break of all relations, But activly support the breakup of Indonesia by supporting the separitist movements all over. As Per East Timor. Indonesia is a far worse terrorists producer now than it would be if dissolved into multiple smaller countries and given a uncorrupt regime.

You really don't have a clue do you? A broken up Indonesia would be far worse than a unified Indonesia. Yes, let's try and provide support to 100+ individual republics. Great idea that one, we barely have the number of people needed to support one or two countries let alone the number that would be invovled if Indonesia broke up.

Indonesia is coming out of a totalitarian regime. It IS becoming less corrupt, it's just these things take time. Hell, they only had their first truly free elections less than a decade ago. Indonesia will come good, given time and support. Precisely what we don't need is to try and destabilise it.

[Efrem]

You really don't have a clue do you? A broken up Indonesia would be far worse than a unified Indonesia. Yes, let's try and provide support to 100+ individual republics. Great idea that one, we barely have the number of people needed to support one or two countries let alone the number that would be invovled if Indonesia broke up.

Indonesia is coming out of a totalitarian regime. It IS becoming less corrupt, it's just these things take time. Hell, they only had their first truly free elections less than a decade ago. Indonesia will come good, given time and support. Precisely what we don't need is to try and destabilise it.



I'm talking a union of smaller states.

Less corrupt... by how much? Bribes are cheaper???

I don't beleive for a second Indosnesia is signigicantly less corrupt than it used to.

[sharrukin]

No, not break of all relations, But activly support the breakup of Indonesia by supporting the separitist movements all over. As Per East Timor. Indonesia is a far worse terrorists producer now than it would be if dissolved into multiple smaller countries and given a uncorrupt regime.

Look at it this way. If 5% of the population was made refugee in a nation of 235 million people that close to 12 million refugees. Who is going to take care of them? Who could? And 5% is pretty low for what we have seen when a state breaks up into warring factions. It could be a lot higher than that.

[Productivity]

I'm talking a union of smaller states.

And what happens if said smaller states don't want to be in said union?


Less corrupt... by how much? Bribes are cheaper???

I don't beleive for a second Indosnesia is signigicantly less corrupt than it used to.

So you don't think the fact that Indonesia now has a working democracy will help to bring down corruption? The sheer fact that the government must now be accountable to the people (or else face being voted out) means that corruption will decrease.

Don't let any logic get in the way of your blind hatred of Indonesia though...

[Es Arkajae]

Her defence was that they were not her drugs. It is thought (and emerging evidence seems to indicate this) that baggage handlers in Australian airports are using innocent people's luggage to smuggle drugs around Australia. I would put the chances at 95% to 5% that she's innocent. This whole thing defies logic. You don't smuggle pot into Bali, you smuggle it out of there.

Bali is home to over 10,000 Aussie expatriates, I'm betting there is a good market for the stuff there. Who knows maybe it was kind of like a business holiday for dear ol' Schapelle.




The real outrage is that she has been found guilty, and this is due to Indonesia's justice system, which I can only describe as being backwards and unfair. In the eyes of it, she was found with the drugs, so the onus upon her is to prove they were not hers. This is something impossible to prove, and is demonstrated by one of the record of one of the judges on this trial (~500 guilty verdicts vs 0 innocent).

You're right the onus is on her to prove that the drugs which were found in her possession were not hers, she failed to prove that. All her defence team seemed able to do was cry alot.




I don't disagree with Indonesia's right to set it's own penalties, so I'm not going to criticise them for the severity of the sentence. 20 years for pot may be excessive in your view, but in the eyes of Indonesians it's not, and I see no reason why you should be able to force your view upon them.

Just their right to find guilty people caught in possession of drugs who can't prove that its not theirs?




I really don't know what to say, I'm outraged here, a girl who is almost certainly innocent,

Oh you have proof?, or let me guess, you can read minds.



has just been convicted based on evidence that would never hold up in any first world justice system,

The 'first world justice system' is a joke, probably even more of a one than some of these 'inferior' systems you so lament. I've seen murderers get five years in prison, rapists get three etc. You call that justice?

That judges record probably speaks more for his low bullshit tolerance than anything else, possession is nine tenths of the law and I'm betting he's heard every excuse in the book.




and is going to serve twenty years for it. Indonesia is seriously going to have to rethink it's relationship with Au, because the majority of the Australian public are seriously angry.

What garbage.

Most Australians don't know whether she was innocent or guilty, most are probably sick and tired of the idiotic media pushing this crap 24hrs a day.

I hope to God that the media which is trying to create a storm in a teacup over this (like the morons usually do) doesn't get its way. We're finally on good terms with the Indons who finally have a decent President and now the media for the sake of whipping up ratings is trying to turn Corby who is probably guilty into some kind of bloody martyr.

What IS amusing though is all the fools talking about how "they'll never go to Bali!" (as if they have or were going to anyway), but I'm sure talking big makes them all feel better about acting like a bunch of kneejerk reaction twits.

Oh and some people have compared this 20 yr sentence to the 30 month sentence I believe it was that was handed down to that Islamic mulla guy a while back who encouraged people to attack Western targets. What these fools fail to realise is that if that Mulla had been tried in Australia he would have gotten off scot free thanks to our oh so superior so called 'justice' system.

[barocca]

...Having spent some time of my life near Nimbin (in a place called Lismore to be precise, if you know the region) I can tell you it takes about 9 hours to drive to Sydney...

having spent a good portion of the last 25 years with a drivers licence and driving that same road (bris-syd-return) i do find 9 hours hard to swallow


first it is 1000 klicks
note- i am not talking about the northern councils, i am talking about sydney proper.

second there are places where you must slow to below 80kph

third there are places where you will get held up by traffic and be unable to maintain the speed limit.

fourth there is not a car made that can carry enough fuel to run the distance non-stop at the speed required (a truck, yes, a car - no) - if you stop you lose minimum half an hour

fifth only a lunatic would try to make the run in 9 hours, and even if they make it i guarantee they wont survive the run three times.

sixth you cannot run a car over that distance at the speed required for your 9 hour trip-time repeatedly without doing major damage to the vehicle

seventh at the required speed $500 bucks is hardly likely to be enough money - petrol will consume at least a quarter of that in a one-way trip, and the mule has got to get home

eighth you yourself mentioned radar traps, there exists a set of permanent sites just north of Byron, (in the big dipper across the range) where the trap is moved back and forth along the length - you never know where it will be today, you simply have to take that section at the limit


a trip of 1000k, where there are sections of less than 80k limit, where there are sections with traffic bottlenecks, with at least one fuel stop (assuming a dual fuel car) and known stretches of arial speed patrols, mobile speed patrols and stationary sites, no matter wether you time the trip for the middle of the night,
it takes more than 9 hours - 12 hours is "do-able" but tiring,
14 hours is a comfortable time, no speeding, rest stops, less wear and tear on driver and car.

anyone that claims they do it in 9 hours has one of those forehead modifications so popular a few years back,
you remember the ones, where they had "Bloody Idiot" stamped on their foreheads...

[Productivity]

Bali is home to over 10,000 Aussie expatriates, I'm betting there is a good market for the stuff there. Who knows maybe it was kind of like a business holiday for dear ol' Schapelle.

Never mind the fact that it isn't exactly difficult to grow it there. Given the law enforcement levels, there seems to be no good reason to grow marijuana in Australia (or any other first world nation) only to import it to a third world nation.


You're right the onus is on her to prove that the drugs which were found in her possession were not hers, she failed to prove that.

See below


Just their right to find guilty people caught in possession of drugs who can't prove that its not theirs?

Which is a system that ensures that nobody can ever be found innocent, unless you can somehow convince the person who put them there to admit the drugs were theirs. Big chance of that ever happening.


Oh you have proof?, or let me guess, you can read minds.

Do you not understand the word almost?


The 'first world justice system' is a joke, probably even more of a one than some of these 'inferior' systems you so lament. I've seen murderers get five years in prison, rapists get three etc. You call that justice?

The sentencing system, which is a subset of the justice system, is not under question here. I have accepted the right of the Indonesians to have their own sentencing regime, and any comparison of said sentencing regime with Australia's sentencing regime is irrelevant. It is the system which judges the state of a person, guilty or not guilty that is under question.

Nice attempt at a straw man though, I've noticed that they don't tend to stand up long here though.


That judges record probably speaks more for his low bullshit tolerance than anything else, possession is nine tenths of the law and I'm betting he's heard every excuse in the book.

You beleive that the true ratio of guilty:not guilty that comes before him is 500:0???


What garbage.

Most Australians don't know whether she was innocent or guilty, most are probably sick and tired of the idiotic media pushing this crap 24hrs a day.

I hope to God that the media which is trying to create a storm in a teacup over this (like the morons usually do) doesn't get its way. We're finally on good terms with the Indons who finally have a decent President and now the media for the sake of whipping up ratings is trying to turn Corby who is probably guilty into some kind of bloody martyr.

What IS amusing though is all the fools talking about how "they'll never go to Bali!" (as if they have or were going to anyway), but I'm sure talking big makes them all feel better about acting like a bunch of kneejerk reaction twits.

Have a look on some Australian forums if you're interested, the reaction to this is the biggest I've seen for a while. Maybe you're right, and it will blow over, but I'm guessing it wont. Hell I would prefer that it blew over, as you say, this may be the best chance we have for decent relations with Indonesia, but I don't think it will.

I agree that the media is beating it up more than they would if it was a non-white, attractive woman, but in my view it is still a miscarriage of justice.


Oh and some people have compared this 20 yr sentence to the 30 month sentence I believe it was that was handed down to that Islamic mulla guy a while back who encouraged people to attack Western targets. What these fools fail to realise is that if that Mulla had been tried in Australia he would have gotten off scot free thanks to our oh so superior so called 'justice' system.

And rightly so, because the prosecution's case was pathetic. Nobody should be sentenced unless the prosecution can prove they are guilty, and the prosecution put forwards a very weak case in the above example.



Now knowing your form (and seeming love for logical fallacies), you'll come back with an unfounded argumentum ad hominem.

[barocca]

if you dont know if she is guilty or not ask yourself one question

why would you take a product that cost you $20k into a country where you can get shot for it and you would only get $5k when you sell it??

B.

[Es Arkajae]

Never mind the fact that it isn't exactly difficult to grow it there. Given the law enforcement levels, there seems to be no good reason to grow marijuana in Australia (or any other first world nation) only to import it to a third world nation.

Oh you have first hand experience growing dope and selling it to the 10,000 Aussie expatriates and numerous tourists in Bali?




See below



Which is a system that ensures that nobody can ever be found innocent, unless you can somehow convince the person who put them there to admit the drugs were theirs. Big chance of that ever happening.


The drugs were ON her, she had them in her possession, theres no argument about this fact, the onus is on her defence team to prove that they weren't hers, they failed.

By your silly method anyone going through an Australian airport can smuggle anything they want as long as they claim someone else put it there.



Do you not understand the word almost?

I do, it appears you do not understand the word 'certainly'.

Here let me try it your way "It is almost 'certain 'that I have a 20 inch long penis".

Hey the above was 'almost' certainly a lie, it was also 'almost' certainly the truth.




The sentencing system, which is a subset of the justice system, is not under question here. I have accepted the right of the Indonesians to have their own sentencing regime, and any comparison of said sentencing regime with Australia's sentencing regime is irrelevant. It is the system which judges the state of a person, guilty or not guilty that is under question.

Nice attempt at a straw man though, I've noticed that they don't tend to stand up long here though

Justice is in the sentencing even more than the verdict, if the judge had found her guilty and then fined her $500 I seriously doubt you'd be here bitching.

So drop the facade, you're here whining about their 'inferior third world corrupt justice system' (theres a lovely prejudice for you) which sends widdle innocent Australian girls who cry a lot to jail when those same girls were caught smuggling drugs through airport security and can't prove its not theirs (a reasonable requirement one would think).



You beleive that the true ratio of guilty:not guilty that comes before him is 500:0???

For this offence to which that ratio applies, in the place the judge presides I'd have no problem believing it.




Have a look on some Australian forums if you're interested, the reaction to this is the biggest I've seen for a while. Maybe you're right, and it will blow over, but I'm guessing it wont. Hell I would prefer that it blew over, as you say, this may be the best chance we have for decent relations with Indonesia, but I don't think it will.

I am Australian and I've met plenty of people most of whom really don't give a toss, they don't think she's guilty or innocent, they just don't care, on the internet though I suppose its easier for the disgruntled to vote in meaningless polls and talk big like some in this thread speaking of 'breaking up Indonesia into smaller states' etc.



I agree that the media is beating it up more than they would if it was a non-white, attractive woman, but in my view it is still a miscarriage of justice.

You're entitled to your opinion, you're not entitled to lie or exagerrate the reactions of other Australians so that you can fool foreigners into thinking that your opinion is neccessarily the same or even the majority case for the rest of the country.




And rightly so, because the prosecution's case was pathetic. Nobody should be sentenced unless the prosecution can prove they are guilty, and the prosecution put forwards a very weak case in the above example.

She had drugs in her possession after coming off a flight from Australia and she couldn't prove someone else had put them there and there was little reason to believe someone else had.

Afterall smuggling drugs in Australia would be far safer not to mention cheaper to transport it by car (rather than in small several kg packets by means of unsuspecting aeroplane travellors with all the risks that entails), the talk in this thread of car searches and stuff is patently nonsense and anyone with half a brain could avoid the small fruit growing zones which actually have limited searches to avoid the unlikely case of drugs ever being actually discovered on them in such an instance.




Now knowing your form (and seeming love for logical fallacies), you'll come back with an unfounded argumentum ad hominem.

I recall crossing paths with you once on these forums where I shot down your garbage and you promptly whined to the mods. I think you 'know my form' as much as you know how to string a coherent argument together, so I remain unconcerned.

As for 'unfounded argumentum ad hominem' (nice one of your own by the way), I refer you to the dictionary and the word 'pretentious'.

[Efrem]

The most telling point for me is that she had no Marjuana in her system.

So she didn't take it for personal use....
She would have lost money for selling it in Indosnesia...
What the hell is her supposed motivation????

[Es Arkajae]

The most telling point for me is that she had no Marjuana in her system.
So she didn't take it for personal use....


Drug dealers who do their own drugs don't last long I'd imagine.





She would have lost money for selling it in Indosnesia...

Making LESS money selling it in Bali than one would have selling it in parts of Australia, doesn't mean that one wouldn't make a profit on such a trip.

Apparently she was no stranger to Bali and had travelled there a few times, the idea of her taking up marijuana traffiking and selling in Bali as a means to fund her trips there and make a bit extra (who knows how many times she may have gotten away with it in the past) is not at all far fetched.

As for her boogie board bag the marijuana weighed 4.1kg, the idea that she would not have noticed the extra weight and investigated seems unusual, that it was in an easily investigated portion of the bag could merely be to aid her in claiming 'someone else put it there' if she were caught. Theres also the 'hiding in plain sight' aspect of it all.




What the hell is her supposed motivation????

Having a holiday/visit that pays for itself perhaps.

One could equally well ask why domestic Australian drug dealers would use a method as horribly flawed and prone to mistakes and discovery as actually planting packets of marijuana on unsuspecting travellors when just transporting it by car around Australia would be far safer not to mention cheaper.

[GodsPetMonkey]

a trip of 1000k, where there are sections of less than 80k limit, where there are sections with traffic bottlenecks, with at least one fuel stop (assuming a dual fuel car) and known stretches of arial speed patrols, mobile speed patrols and stationary sites, no matter wether you time the trip for the middle of the night,
it takes more than 9 hours - 12 hours is "do-able" but tiring,
14 hours is a comfortable time, no speeding, rest stops, less wear and tear on driver and car.

anyone that claims they do it in 9 hours has one of those forehead modifications so popular a few years back,
you remember the ones, where they had "Bloody Idiot" stamped on their foreheads...

Did I say Brisbane to Sydney? Going from Nimbin, you would head into Lismore, now, if you were heading to QLD you take the Bangalow Rd. then enter the Pacific Highway near Byron, if you were heading to Sydney, you would take the Bruxner Hwy towards Ballina, exiting onto the Pacific Hwy just south of there. From there, if you have a good run of it, 9 hours is doable, the highway has been much improved over the last few years (in both directions).

If you wanted to be REALLY safe, and avoid cops, you would head towards Tenterfield then head south, but it takes longer, and is not the normal route for Sydney runs... what’s more, its normally the runs to the Gold Coast that they hire some idiot to do it for them, the longer trip to Sydney means larger hauls, and would your trust some 20yr old twit with >100Kg pot? Please take note that 4.1Kg of pot (or however much perfectly fit into her bag) is small change. Amateur really.

And the bloody idiot campaign was for drink driving... A smart smuggler does not drive pissed or stoned, great way to attract unwanted attention.

[GodsPetMonkey]

Never mind the fact that it isn't exactly difficult to grow it there. Given the law enforcement levels, there seems to be no good reason to grow marijuana in Australia (or any other first world nation) only to import it to a third world nation.

Whilst certain parts of Indonesia are probably perfect for growing dope, I have good information (from an expatriate who grew up there) that it is much harder to obtain then one might think. It would appear as if the locals (and not just the cops) take a heavy stance against it. Most of the drugs that do end up there are smuggled in from other parts of the country.

Smuggling it into West Papua or Borneo however, would be just plain stupid.



Which is a system that ensures that nobody can ever be found innocent, unless you can somehow convince the person who put them there to admit the drugs were theirs. Big chance of that ever happening.


The burden to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt is not the ONLY burden that exists... it’s just the most important (and that has to be remembered). Indeed, there is an implied burden on the defence to cast reasonable doubt on the prosecutions case, failure to do so makes life very easy for the prosecutors. Looking at the evidence at hand, the defence had an uphill battle all the way, and here is where they failed.



You beleive that the true ratio of guilty:not guilty that comes before him is 500:0???


I have yet to hear these claims from a reliable source... excuse me if I take them for a grain of salt.



Have a look on some Australian forums if you're interested, the reaction to this is the biggest I've seen for a while. Maybe you're right, and it will blow over, but I'm guessing it wont. Hell I would prefer that it blew over, as you say, this may be the best chance we have for decent relations with Indonesia, but I don't think it will.

I agree that the media is beating it up more than they would if it was a non-white, attractive woman, but in my view it is still a miscarriage of justice.


(Supposedly) attractive women who just wants to party on a cheap trip to Bali (isn't that a dream for lower middle class teenagers these days?) gets caught with large amount of dope and everyone cries.

Fat dyke is caught with large amount of heroin strapped to her body, claims duress; no one gives a crap...

I don't think such judgments should be made on looks. To be honest, I'm sick of it all... If I have to see Corby's face ever again it'll be too soon.



I am Australian and I've met plenty of people most of whom really don't give a toss, they don't think she's guilty or innocent, they just don't care, on the internet though I suppose its easier for the disgruntled to vote in meaningless polls and talk big like some in this thread speaking of 'breaking up Indonesia into smaller states' etc.


I think a lot of Australian's believe very strongly she is innocent (in no small part thanks to the media).
I think a lot more are over it now.



By your silly method anyone going through an Australian airport can smuggle anything they want as long as they claim someone else put it there.

Interesting legal fact, try to smuggle sugar into NSW with it strapped to your body like you would heroin, and you can be guilty of attempted narcotics smuggling. Weird eh?

[Efrem]

"Making LESS money selling it in Bali than one would have selling it in parts of Australia, doesn't mean that one wouldn't make a profit on such a trip."


Yes it does....

[Es Arkajae]

"Making LESS money selling it in Bali than one would have selling it in parts of Australia, doesn't mean that one wouldn't make a profit on such a trip."


Yes it does....

Wow, what a stunning counter-argument~:rolleyes:

If the sale of the marijuana nets her even slightly more than she spent on producing or procuring the marijuana and buying the plane ticket to Bali then she has made a profit.

Taking even the lowest end estimate of the street value of over 4kg of marijuana into account which is stated by some at around $5,000 that would more than cover a return plane ticket to Bali, it would certainly help a great deal in covering in major part or whole the costs of any surfing holiday. The holiday would in effect pay for itself if not make her a profit even.

For all we know she had friends on the island who had requested the marijuana and already paid for it, certainly its unusual that a 'beauty student' still living at home with the parents could afford multiple trips to Bali.

And if as the Indonesians claim the street value is much higher (they give figures of $80,000) than all the more motive to smuggle it in.

All this shoots possible holes in the "oh why would anyone smuggle marijuana into Bali" argument.

Fact is there is indeed incentive and profit and enough potential reasons for a smuggler to do so, not a particularly smart smuggler mind you but then what smart dope dealer would use domestic Australian passengers as unwitting mules with all the risks that would entail when an easier, cheaper and safer method would be to simply transport it by car?

The entire case is weird only in that no matter which way it fell someone somewhere was being very stupid, Corby certainly doesn't strike me as a genius so I think its entirely possible that she did the deed.

And in the end the Indonesian judges despite getting the full waterworks from Corby and her defence team seemed to think so too.

[Papewaio]

Their country, their laws, their choices.

It is funny though that if she was smuggling 4.1kg of C4 she may have got a lesser sentence.

[bmolsson]

No, not break of all relations, But activly support the breakup of Indonesia by supporting the separitist movements all over. As Per East Timor. Indonesia is a far worse terrorists producer now than it would be if dissolved into multiple smaller countries and given a uncorrupt regime.

The IMF proposed autonomy law has increased the corruption in Indonesia and distributed it around the country which makes it harder to stop it.
Further more the most wanted terrorists in ASEAN are from Malaysia. The leadership in the militant wing of JI originates from the Northern provinces of Malaysia.

The last terrorist attack against a market in Tentane in Sulawesi was made by a group fighting for independence. All the insurgent groups are using terrorism in their "fight for freedom".

There are oil in Aceh and a few other provinces so it would be logical for Australia to support these terrorist organisations in order to get a better oil deal. Similar to Timor Leste. Papua have a gold mine as well which surely would be a good argument to support the insurgents there.

Timor Leste today is a country in a rather miserable state. If Australia was to live up to it's promises it wouldn't be the case. The intervention in Timor was nothing more than a domestic vote fishing event........

Indonesia split up as amny small states would be one of the largest nightmares for Australia. Refugees, terrorism, rough states with oil money etc. It would of course increase the military spendings so the "hawks" in Australia would surely like it........

[bmolsson]

Their country, their laws, their choices.

It is funny though that if she was smuggling 4.1kg of C4 she may have got a lesser sentence.

The tough drug laws is actually a result of the western pressure to stop the flow of drugs out of Indonesia about 30 years ago. At that time the domestic use was rather insignificant. There was also a strong tradition, and still is in some circles, for expats and the richer people to use drugs rather than alcohol.

One thing that I can't really understand in the Australian reaction, it is expected that a suspected terrorist should be more or less killed on the spot with no mercy. It is also clear that all Asian immigrant that smuggles drugs in to Australia should be severely punished. Then suddenly a caucasian beaty queen bites the dust and everything changes........

When I travel I ALWAYS check my bags. If I have the SLIGHTEST suspision that my bag has been tampered with, I will immediately report this. The information given before landing is very clear and specific. I find it rather increadible that you wouldn't notice an additional 4,1 kg pot being added to your bagage. You are allowed to travel with 20 kg and a 20% increase would be seen one might think.......

[Papewaio]

Timor Leste was a tragedy. Australia and the UN stepped in to stop the atrocities.

The vast majority in the Timor Leste voted for independance and then what happened?

Militia (ie Terrorists) went on a rampage and burnt down virtually every building in the major population centers. What did the Indonesia army do? Nothing.

When it came to prosecuting these terrorists they where found innocent and the judge shook their hands.

If nothing else shows how corrupt Indonesia is then it was the handling of Timor Leste.

[Papewaio]

One thing that I can't really understand in the Australian reaction, it is expected that a suspected terrorist should be more or less killed on the spot with no mercy. It is also clear that all Asian immigrant that smuggles drugs in to Australia should be severely punished. Then suddenly a caucasian beaty queen bites the dust and everything changes........


Actually Asian drug smugglers get far less harsh sentences and can even work outside prison to pay for their sentence. One case in the paper at the moment is a guy on minimum pay of $400 dollars a week. $100 dollars pays for board to the prison the rest goes back to his family in Indonesia.

That means if he is from a poor rural area in Indonesia he is possibly earning more in prison in Australia then say a mine worker in Sumatra who earns about $3 Australian a day.

[bmolsson]

Timor Leste was a tragedy. Australia and the UN stepped in to stop the atrocities.

The vast majority in the Timor Leste voted for independance and then what happened?

Militia (ie Terrorists) went on a rampage and burnt down virtually every building in the major population centers. What did the Indonesia army do? Nothing.

When it came to prosecuting these terrorists they where found innocent and the judge shook their hands.

If nothing else shows how corrupt Indonesia is then it was the handling of Timor Leste.

The referendum was not about independence or not. The question was about a special autonomy. The public voted no to this special autonomy and this was taken as a yes for independence by Australia and UN. The militia reaction came after the Indonesian government accepted the independence of Timor Leste and the militia was mainly locals which at that time lost their powerbase. The Indonesian army did not have any authority to open fire on the crowds, regardless if they wanted it or not.
The serious part in the tragedy is the fact that there was elements in the army in Timor that supported the militia with arms and funds. The governor at that time also wanted to eliminate any traces of evidence against him and his corrupt practices.

The trials did not show up any evidence against the military personnel. Not taking action is not a crime in Indonesia, which is similar in most other countries in the world.

If you read a bit history you will see that Indonesia invaded Timor with the blessing of the west in order to avoid the communist fretilini guerilla creating a communist rough state close to Australia.......

[bmolsson]

Actually Asian drug smugglers get far less harsh sentences and can even work outside prison to pay for their sentence. One case in the paper at the moment is a guy on minimum pay of $400 dollars a week. $100 dollars pays for board to the prison the rest goes back to his family in Indonesia.

That means if he is from a poor rural area in Indonesia he is possibly earning more in prison in Australia then say a mine worker in Sumatra who earns about $3 Australian a day.

If so, why is Australian commados being used against refugee womens and children.... ~;)

You reasoning doesn't really seem relevant. The fact remains that Australia is not supporting drug dealings and should respect the other countries laws.
Furthermore, Indonesia doesn't agree with the treatment of muslims as generally being seen as terrorists. Surely this is not true, but the news from Australia does make it look like this, just like this case makes things look a bit off......

[Papewaio]

If so, why is Australian commados being used against refugee womens and children.... ~;)

The SAS was used for a couple of very good reasons. First off being that they are highly trained. Can operate on water, have lots of medics (useful for treating dehydrated and starved people) and probably the most obvious that the SAS are based in Perth.



You reasoning doesn't really seem relevant. The fact remains that Australia is not supporting drug dealings and should respect the other countries laws.


You made a statement insinuating that Australia treats Asian smugglers harshly. I pointed out that the smugglers get better wages then Indonesian mine workers... not exactly harsh now is it?

The Bali Nine were found with help from Australian Federal Police.



Furthermore, Indonesia doesn't agree with the treatment of muslims as generally being seen as terrorists. Surely this is not true, but the news from Australia does make it look like this, just like this case makes things look a bit off......


Then on your media you must have noticed the Australian and New Zealand prime ministers on ANZAC day in Turkey. That we have a fairly large Muslim community that can freely worship at their Mosques.

Muslims are not seen as terrorists, terrorists will use whatever power bases that are available.

What is annoying a lot of people in Australia is that it seems that Indonesia sentences for drug smuggling are so much more then for terrorism. Surely justice would be that planning mass murder should be treated as a far worse crime?

[PanzerJaeger]

The tough drug laws are good but if shes innocent maybe Mr. Howard can get on the phone with Mr. Bush and work something out via Indonesia. ~;)

[Don Corleone]

I don't know how I feel about this case. There's so many different angles.

1) The Western press is being very hypocritical. This dashing young thing is hardly the first Aussie to get tossed in the clink in Indonesia for transporting drugs, but certainly is more photogenic.

2) The no fingerprints biz.... did they find ANY fingerprints on it? If they found somebody else's, that points to her innocence, but she's no moron. Certainly she could have worn gloves to pack the suitcase.

3) Indonesia is a sovereign state. They have every right to put any laws & puninshments on the books they want. We have a right to try to talk to them with persuasion, but that's all it can or should be. In this case, I don't believe there's much call for even persuasion. Stiff drug penalties are good, and there's a reason Singapore is the safest place on the planet.

4) I haven't heard this girl had a spotless record, nor that she's had any prior convictions. Any word on her history?

5) If Aussie baggage handlers have such an elaborate system in place, terrorists would already be using it to blow planes out of the sky over there. Who do you think lugs bags around all day? Low paid immigrants, most of the time.

In short, I think there's a lot more to be learned in this case before anyone goes hurling accusations either way. Calm down, breathe deep, investegate....

[Productivity]

1) - Not going to argue, it's hardly unusual for the press to be hypocritical.

2) -From the footage when the Indonesian customs officers found it they themselves were handling it without any gloves, etc. From my understanding the net efefct of this was nothing of use could be found. Sloppy practice though.

3) - Yep, they can set their penalties and rules. They can set how the are adminstered. But I disagree with them, and will tell those interested that in any discussion of Indonesia.

4) - Completely clean.

5) - Not sure, the wage systems in Au. are different from those of the US. For the most you can't pay cheap immigrant labour for jobs, you have to pay them a (relatively high but that's another discussion) minimum wage, which is what plenty of Australians are on as well. Also it doesn't take a genious to work out that getting paid $500 a week to smuggle pot is better than $5000 to put a bomb on, where you are probably going to get found, at best you wont get any more work because security will increase.

Plus there is the fact that there have been baggage handler arrests (unrelated to this incident) showing that there is a degree of criminal activity amongst them.

[Steppe Merc]

This is a joke. Death penalty or life in prison for pot? Sure it's a hell of a lot, but that's just stupid. It's not like it's coke or herion! It's pot! Big deal!
Don't they more important things to do?

[Goofball]

Never. You can't OD on THC.

No, but you can OD on Doritos and Peanut M&M's because of THC...

~:smoking:

[bmolsson]

What is annoying a lot of people in Australia is that it seems that Indonesia sentences for drug smuggling are so much more then for terrorism. Surely justice would be that planning mass murder should be treated as a far worse crime?


Indonesia have the capital punishment for terrorism. The Bali bombers received death penalty.
Indonesia also have the death penalty for drug trafficing. If it would make the Australian public feel better I am sure that the terrorists could be killed twice...... :bow:

[bmolsson]

The tough drug laws are good but if shes innocent maybe Mr. Howard can get on the phone with Mr. Bush and work something out via Indonesia. ~;)

You mean a War against War on Drugs... ~;)

[Papewaio]

Indonesia have the capital punishment for terrorism. The Bali bombers received death penalty.
Indonesia also have the death penalty for drug trafficing. If it would make the Australian public feel better I am sure that the terrorists could be killed twice...... :bow:

Actually I would prefer life imprisonment for the terrorists. I would also like to see their leaders get more then 30 months.

What is worse the leader or the follower?

[bmolsson]

Actually I would prefer life imprisonment for the terrorists. I would also like to see their leaders get more then 30 months.

What is worse the leader or the follower?

I am against death penalty my self.

The important thing in the JI and Bashyir case is that he is not the leader. He is the spiritual leader. Telling people that they should kill others are not equal to order them and participate in the organisation of a bomb. I my self believe that he is the actual leader, but it has not been proven. I have seen the legal documentation in the case against him and it's pathetic. If anything, it's a shame that he is convicted based on the presented evidence. This regardless if he is guilty or not.

In the case of the drug conviction, it's a more clear case.

You arrive to the customs and they stop you. They ask you if it is your bag. They open the bag together with you. They find the drugs together with you. You claim that it's not your drugs and they must have been put there by some evil Australian bagage handlers.
Do you think she would have been off the hook in Australia ? I don't think so.

[Papewaio]

In Australia more physical evidence such as fingerprints on the package and fluids on the inside would have been used.

Also a comparison if possible of the weigh in weight of the luggage compared with arrival weight.

This is because in Australia the court has to prove beyond a doubt that someone is guilty. So a lot more evidence has to be submitted to get convictions.

[GodsPetMonkey]

In Australia more physical evidence such as fingerprints on the package and fluids on the inside would have been used.

Also a comparison if possible of the weigh in weight of the luggage compared with arrival weight.

This is because in Australia the court has to prove beyond a doubt that someone is guilty. So a lot more evidence has to be submitted to get convictions.

Not another graduate of the Ray Martin School of Law :help:

Ok, I shouldn't be so rude, sorry, but over the last few weeks it seems everyone has become an expert on Criminal and Indonesian Law... 99% of them are just regurgitating the crap they heard from their local shock jock radio host, or what ever was on ACA the previous night. Let me help clear up some misconceptions ~:)

First, it’s the prosecution that has to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, but this burden hasn't got the same meaning as what you see on shows like Law and Order.

Now, when faced with a nasty penalty like death.... or in Australia, for that amount of cannabis, she would have been looking at up to 15 years in jail, your not likely to roll over and confess, you will come up with some reason as to why your not guilty. Whilst the prosecution has the burden to prove the defendant guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, the defence has the implied burden seeding reasonable doubt in the prosecutions version of events.
To the case at hand, the police handling definitely helps, reducing the physical evidence available to the prosecution, and helping cause reasonable doubt, but it doesn't really further the defences version of events... not that it has to anyway. The guy who heard some other guys talk about the guys who apparently planted the drugs in her bag, well, I'm not sure how anyone took him seriously, his evidence would have never made it into an Australian court, and I doubt the Indonesian judges put much faith into it.
IMHO, the best thing available to the Corby defence was the Police handling... there was no way you could prove who had touched it after they were done with it. The evidence they presented in support of the drug planting baggage handler theory was little more then speculation with the rare moment of circumstantial evidence.

The prosecution had a ripper in its favour though, a bag, her bag, full of the drugs, she's not the first person caught in an Airport with drugs to claim that someone else put them there (actually, isn't that the standard excuse?). If I was caught leaving the Tower of London with the crown jewels in my bag, what do you think are the chances of me successfully claiming that someone else had put them there, considering there is no additional physical evidence showing that my story is true, or that I had put them there?

Questions are welcome, consider this an educational experiance!

[Efrem]

Well its been proven that such a thing can occur, Which the judge refused to hear btw.

[bmolsson]

Well its been proven that such a thing can occur, Which the judge refused to hear btw.

One of the Bali bombers said something similar when he was driving bomb making material for the gang. They didn't believe him either. No complaints from Australian authorities there.......

[bmolsson]

In Australia more physical evidence such as fingerprints on the package and fluids on the inside would have been used.

Also a comparison if possible of the weigh in weight of the luggage compared with arrival weight.

This is because in Australia the court has to prove beyond a doubt that someone is guilty. So a lot more evidence has to be submitted to get convictions.

Do you know any Australian case where this has happened and the accused been released? As I understand its Australian luggage handlers that made the switch and it appears to be common knowledge, therefore there most be other cases.....

[English assassin]

Its tricky, because you certainly DO have to be careful with your luggage at airports. I was pappering myself flying out of Lima, checked my rucksack right down to the bottom in my room and never let the damn thing out of my sight again until it went through check in. It does happen, and if it happened after check in how would you know? I've heard of cases where security staff themselves have planted drugs, either to get their figures looking good or to create a rumpus while other shipments go through, although presumably 4 kilos would be a bit much to sacrifice so that's not that likely here.

On the other hand an extra 4. something kilos is a lot of weight and bulk. Think four bags of sugar. I think, even with a heavy sack, I would probably notice that. But that isn't against the baggage handler theory, since presumably they would plan to intercept the bag before it got onto the carrosel?

Mind you if you did pull your bag off the carrosel, think it was a bit heavy, and open it to find a huge stash inside, what the f. would you do then? Better hope there is a loo handy and no one thinks its odd your bag needs to go I suppose.

I don't know if she's innocent, none of us does. But the scenario she painted is plausible, and scary.

[Productivity]

I'm not so certain about noticing. After a reasonable flight (how long is Sydney Bali?) in economy, getting out into a hot/humid environment etc. you are just going to want to pick up your bags and go. I would guess everything feels reasonably unheavy/uncomfortable, not to mention you have to clear customs etc. so you are going to be in a hurry/concentrating on other issues.

[Papewaio]

Not another graduate of the Ray Martin School of Law :help:

Ok, I shouldn't be so rude, sorry, but over the last few weeks it seems everyone has become an expert on Criminal and Indonesian Law... 99% of them are just regurgitating the crap they heard from their local shock jock radio host, or what ever was on ACA the previous night. Let me help clear up some misconceptions ~:)

First, it’s the prosecution that has to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, but this burden hasn't got the same meaning as what you see on shows like Law and Order.

Now, when faced with a nasty penalty like death.... or in Australia, for that amount of cannabis, she would have been looking at up to 15 years in jail, your not likely to roll over and confess, you will come up with some reason as to why your not guilty. Whilst the prosecution has the burden to prove the defendant guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, the defence has the implied burden seeding reasonable doubt in the prosecutions version of events.
To the case at hand, the police handling definitely helps, reducing the physical evidence available to the prosecution, and helping cause reasonable doubt, but it doesn't really further the defences version of events... not that it has to anyway. The guy who heard some other guys talk about the guys who apparently planted the drugs in her bag, well, I'm not sure how anyone took him seriously, his evidence would have never made it into an Australian court, and I doubt the Indonesian judges put much faith into it.
IMHO, the best thing available to the Corby defence was the Police handling... there was no way you could prove who had touched it after they were done with it. The evidence they presented in support of the drug planting baggage handler theory was little more then speculation with the rare moment of circumstantial evidence.

The prosecution had a ripper in its favour though, a bag, her bag, full of the drugs, she's not the first person caught in an Airport with drugs to claim that someone else put them there (actually, isn't that the standard excuse?). If I was caught leaving the Tower of London with the crown jewels in my bag, what do you think are the chances of me successfully claiming that someone else had put them there, considering there is no additional physical evidence showing that my story is true, or that I had put them there?

Questions are welcome, consider this an educational experiance!

Don't be such an arrogant jerk.

I don't watch Ray Martin or listen to radio for starters.

Second I have worked in Indonesia and the last time I was in Bali I was wearing a jumper because it was so cold compared with the Sumatran highland jungle.

Third I did not comment on Indonesian law. I said that in Australia:


Originally Posted by Papewaio
In Australia more physical evidence such as fingerprints on the package and fluids on the inside would have been used.

Also a comparison if possible of the weigh in weight of the luggage compared with arrival weight.

This is because in Australia the court has to prove beyond a doubt that someone is guilty. So a lot more evidence has to be submitted to get convictions.

[Steppe Merc]

Mind you if you did pull your bag off the carrosel, think it was a bit heavy, and open it to find a huge stash inside, what the f. would you do then? Better hope there is a loo handy and no one thinks its odd your bag needs to go I suppose.
That is a very hard situation. It would be horrible to waste so much pot, but you would almost certaintly get caught... such a difficult dessicion... :help:

Did they drug test her or anything? Does she even do pot or other drugs? Of course not all drug smugglers do drugs, but did they even test that?

[Efrem]

They tested her and she was drug free.

[GodsPetMonkey]

Don't be such an arrogant jerk.

I don't watch Ray Martin or listen to radio for starters.

Second I have worked in Indonesia and the last time I was in Bali I was wearing a jumper because it was so cold compared with the Sumatran highland jungle.

Third I did not comment on Indonesian law. I said that in Australia:

I admit I shouldn't have tarred you with that brush, but I'm a little tired of it all really.... And when I said Criminal law, Australian criminal law was included.

I mean, what do you do for a living? Now imagine everyone, after watching something on TV about what you deal with, suddenly became a self appointed expert, and felt the need to tell the people like you all about it for weeks on end, with the amazing ability to get almost nothing right.
So I over reacted, but its annoying to see misinformation and rumors snowball so rapidly, and then all that comes out of it is more tension between Australia and Indonesia.... if half of the 'threats' made by the public in retaliation for the sentence were heard by the Indonesians I would not be surprised if she ends up getting the firing squad after the appeal.

As for what temperature has to do with it is beyond me... or are you responding to dgb?



Do you know any Australian case where this has happened and the accused been released? As I understand its Australian luggage handlers that made the switch and it appears to be common knowledge, therefore there most be other cases.....


Well a handler at the international terminal in Sydney was arrested for smuggling ring that was bringing in cocaine from South America, though little information has been released about it. And today it seems that a custom report from last year was leaked that said international smuggling involving baggage handlers was a real possibility, but it also said that there was no evidence of domestic smuggling this way... Now that I think about it, this report may have triggered the Federal Police investigation that led to the Sydney baggage handler’s arrest.

[Steppe Merc]

Huh. Well I know that not all drug sellers use drugs themselves, but you'd think if someone had 4 kilos of pot, they'd have smoked at least once in the past couple of weeks. Not that drug tests are always positive... Apparently there are numerous ways to cheat at least the urine sample.

[GodsPetMonkey]

Huh. Well I know that not all drug sellers use drugs themselves, but you'd think if someone had 4 kilos of pot, they'd have smoked at least once in the past couple of weeks. Not that drug tests are always positive... Apparently there are numerous ways to cheat at least the urine sample.

If their drug testing is anything like their finger printing.... ~;)

[Papewaio]

I mean, what do you do for a living? Now imagine everyone, after watching something on TV about what you deal with, suddenly became a self appointed expert, and felt the need to tell the people like you all about it for weeks on end, with the amazing ability to get almost nothing right.
So I over reacted, but its annoying to see misinformation and rumors snowball so rapidly, and then all that comes out of it is more tension between Australia and Indonesia.... if half of the 'threats' made by the public in retaliation for the sentence were heard by the Indonesians I would not be surprised if she ends up getting the firing squad after the appeal.


Nowadays I work in IT. I used to work in Gold exploration in Sumatra, Borneo, Kalgoolie and Telfar.

My commentary was stating that the sentence for the terrorist mules (the ones transporting the equipment) was relatively light in comparison:


Their country, their laws, their choices.

It is funny though that if she was smuggling 4.1kg of C4 she may have got a lesser sentence.

My reference to wearing a jumper in Bali... just pointing out that I had lived in Indonesia long enough to have adapted to the environment. I have a bit more experience of working with Indonesians then you assumed with your opening blast.

[bmolsson]

I have a bit more experience of working with Indonesians then you assumed with your opening blast.


Then you know that the Indonesian public would like to have death penalty for nearly every crime. They are not very compassionate when it comes to alleged criminals..... ~;)

[Papewaio]

Considering the population density I can understand them having a hidden motive for the death penalty... breathing room. ~;)

[bmolsson]

Considering the population density I can understand them having a hidden motive for the death penalty... breathing room. ~;)

Well, they do practice that in China, the home of over 90% of all executions in the world..... ~;)