Orda mentioned this in another thread and i would like to hear the full reasoning behind this,
and also potential solutions
that way people can know and understand what decisions were made, and why
cheers,
B.
All costs are based on 2x the costs in STW. The following discussion started during Samurai Wars 08b at the Samurai Wars forum on the wolves website.
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Magyar Khan
Wolf
Joined: 26 Jan 2002
Total posts: 561
Posted: 26 Jan 2005 Wed, 23:59 Post subject: Re: UNITCOSTS a debate
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maybe the solution must be found in morale bonuses not combat stuff
combat may seem ok but morale, after all CA are mounted samurais i guess
maybe best would be to make all units disciplined as well
HM Oswald
Visitor
Joined: 19 Oct 2004
Total posts: 4
Posted: 27 Jan 2005 Thu, 14:27 Post subject: Re: UNITCOSTS a debate
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Rather than make CA cheaper, I would prefer a situation were CA were at least in a position to beat tired Yari or Naga cav.
I have found in games that even 2 CA are unable to beat Cav units in melee, this seems wrong. Now I havn't tested this thoroughly so I may be wrong, but the head on unit looses too fast to allow the flanking or rear unit to engage.
Sure I expect CA to loose in melee, but not quite so dramatically.. would raising the attack bonus a notch not provide some improvement?
CBR
Visitor
Posted: 27 Jan 2005 Thu, 14:30 Post subject: Re: UNITCOSTS a debate
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CA will get a morale increase and spears have improved anticav too.
Making all units disciplined will remove the drastic -8 morale effect from losing a general (effect last about 25 seconds IIRC ) All units would still have a -2 from the loss. It might be an option and I did it with the Community Mod and worked ok.
Losing a general at a wrong time could end the battle and sometimes it does feel a bit random when he dies.
After a lot of testing we decided not to reduce the cavalry. But we did reduce the YC a bit against infantry while retaining its anti cav ability. It will still be a good unit but we should see more nag cav from now on as the YC will be 1000 now. It will also have higher morale as it did seem a bit low in some battles.
MizuYuuki
visitor
Posted: 27 Jan 2005 Thu, 15:02 Post subject: Changes to CA in 09b
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Hi Oswald,
CA isn't a holding unit. It never was in STW. If you want to pin and flank, then CA would be better as the flanker. I don't think we want to change the role of CA since the objective of Samurai Wars is to bring back the gameplay of STW as much as possible. So, the CA is being given a price reduction to 600 and +2 morale increase. It will have the same speed it had in STW, but its accuracy with the bow is better. We tried using the STW accuracy in previous versions of Samurai Wars, but the kills you could get with the unit were consistently low in test battles. The improved accuracy feels pretty good, and we've seen CA get over 100 kills in test battles. The +2 morale is going to help this unit get more melee kills, so I would expect to see and increase in average kills for it in 09b. The CA was weak in STW, but it gains several advantages in Samurai Wars, and now the price is less than an honor 1 CA in STW.
Injin
Wolf
Joined: 26 Jul 2002
Total posts: 45 Posted: 27 Jan 2005 Thu, 22:55 Post subject: Re: UNITCOSTS a debate
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Well the morale would be nice but they still lack the speed for the cost. 600 in my opinion is still a little high.
Yes they were weak in stw but i enjoyed using them cuz of the speed they had. Cant get the performance out of them like u once could.
Didn't notice any advantage they had except for morale and even thats poor at times.
I agree with Koc that most of the time cav are useless in this mod due to the fact i already seen 3 to 4 units of cav engage for a few seconds barely taking shots then start routing with little over half a unit left.
If -1 will be added to cav then it would be useless taking any.
Better off taking some archers and a few extra melee.
kocmoc
Wolf
Joined: 26 Jan 2002
Total posts: 566
Gender: Posted: 28 Jan 2005 Fri, 01:32 Post subject: Re: UNITCOSTS a debate
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just a small note, 2 CA did beat a YC in STW in melee and full mens.
MizuYuuki
Visitor
Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Total posts: 10
Posted: 28 Jan 2005 Fri, 18:53 Post subject: Re: UNITCOSTS a debate
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That should still work in Sam Wars. In version 09b we have CA at 600 and YC at 1000, and I did beat a YC gen with 2 CA in custom battle using melee only.
MizuYuuki
visitor
Posted: 28 Jan 2005 Fri, 20:35 Post subject: Re: UNITCOSTS a debate
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Cavalry is not getting the -1 melee. CBR and I ran some tests and it makes the cav too weak, and that agrees with opinions we see here as well. However, we did cut back -1 def on YC so it won't beat a monk, and then gave it +1 anti-cav so its performance vs cav stays the same except the point given back is now on the attack number. This means the combat vs cav will resolve more quickly, and therefore it's a little more difficult for 2 CA to beat 1 YC because the timing is more critical. I hope this solves the problem of 28 YC routing a 59 man monk that we saw in a replay sent to us. We can shift the point from attack to defense. if this contines to be a problem.
We checked the turning rate of a CA unit in STW, and the unit does rotate quickly. When you check this in Sam Wars, the unit turns much slower. Unfortunately, the stat which affects this motion has been removed from the stat file and hardcoded in the main exe file.
The YC, HC and CA each got +2 morale so they will fight longer now. The NC already had high morale.
One thing I noticed in testing STW is that there are no charge kills for cav. I think STW might have been bugged somehow. It doesn't seem to me that we would want to simulate that in Sam Wars. With the mtw/vi engine and STW charge stats, you get a lot of charge kills. I think we have to keep charge kills in the 5 to 10 range so that cav won't rout units too easily.
Shagall
Posted: 29 Jan 2005 Sat, 13:36 Post subject: Re: UNITCOSTS a debate
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Personally i missed long and good shootouts in the most games i played until now, whats with the possibility to reduce the costs of all gunners/archers to support antirusharmys?
something like
CA 500 (or better 450)
Archers 300
JapTeppo 200
PortTeppo 150
MizuYuuki
visitor
Posted: 29 Jan 2005 Sat, 14:39 Post subject: Re: UNITCOSTS a debate
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I think cav archer should reflect its STW h0 counterpart. At the moment it does not at 600 cost.
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Bringing this up to date: We ended up modeling the CA closer to its STW h1 counterpart in Samurai Wars 10b. An STW h1 CA cost 321 koku, so the Samurai Wars CA is slightly cheaper at 600/2 = 300. If we model it as an STW h0 unit, it would cost 460 but be considerable weaker in melee and lower in morale, and you would have the non-intuitive situation of the cav archer costing less than the foot archer. The foot archer is also modelled close to its STW h1 counterpart. I think CA and SA should be modelled at the same honor level to be consistent. Modelled at STW h0 both of these units would only be useful as shooters.
seems fair enough
turning speed
there is an unusual setting in the MTW build prod file
it affects cohesion
i think (off to work in 2 mins) it was radius? or similar
it effects dispersion on the battlefield and has an effect on control,
perhaps reduce radius will improve turn?
B.
perhaps reduce radius will improve turn?
I don't think so because we tested units that were not dispersed. If you move a cav archer in Samurai Wars and it has to rotate into position, it takes considerably longer than it did in STW. All unit types are similarly affected. For instance, when maneuvering an infantry unit forward and turning twice to make a rear attack on an engaged enemy unit takes considerably longer. In Samurai Wars it takes two YS 50 seconds to defeat a WM with that maneuver, but only 20 seconds to do the same thing in STW. The rotation speed in STW was quite fast.
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