Tech trees

[Rodion Romanovich]

This thread is for the discussions about tech trees.

Note in the lists below:
- Boni for buildings of higher level are total boni, not added bonus for upgrading
- When a building upgrade enables recruiting of certain units, I only mention the new units unlocked by the upgrade
- Buildings in the same paragraph starting with "-" belong to the same series - buildings to the right are upgrades of buildings further to the left on that line
- Mercenaries are listed at the bottom of this post.


FRANCE, HOLY ROMAN EMPIRE, LOTHARINGIA

The Franks were among the first "barbarians" to introduce a heavy cavalry of high quality in their armies. This cavalry, formed as early as in the 7th century, was capable of stopping the muslim expansion in the battle of Tours/Poitiers in 732, and was further improved throughout the coming years. During the crusades, the frankish knights proved stronger than the Byzantine cataphracts in frontal engagement, and superior also to the skilled muslim cavalrymen as long as they could avoid flanking. Being a little undisciplined, the Frankish knights of the High Medieval period were not unjustly claimed to be the reason for defeats in many battles, but the early frankish cavalry were slightly more controlled, and proved an excellent arm in combination with the traditional "barbarian" infantry, which had by the 8th century recieved heavy armor and the discipline of roman legions - with the strength and ferocity of their barbarian ancestors. This made the Frankish armies some of the most flexible armies of the period, something further enhanced by local specialists and a stabile economy able to support their expensive high-quality units.

CIVIL BUILDINGS
- Chapel (+10 happiness, requires town), Church (+20 happiness, +1 morale, +5% law, requires large town), Cathedral (+40 happiness, +2 morale, +10% law, enable training of tarfurs [light infantry, are catolic fanatics], requires city)
- Abbey/Monastery (requires Church, +10% happiness - perhaps replace this building with specific monastery types for different religious orders granting different boni and which can only be built in a certain province/in certain provinces)
- Forest clearings (+5 farming, available from start in most provinces - high bonus to indicate how an important improvement this step means compared to no farming buildings), Farms (+8 farming), Crop rotation (+11 farming), Farming technology (+14 farming)
- Proper sewage (+10% health bonus), Herbal medicine (+15% health bonus), Water pipes (+20% health bonus).
- Paths, Mud roads, Paved roads
- Trader (+20% trade), Market (+40% trade), Merchant (+60% trade), Master merchant (+80 trade, +10% happiness)
- Trade port (no ships), Port (level 1 ships unlocked), Shipyard (lvl 2 ships), Dockyard (lvl 3 ships)
- Blacksmith (+1 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Master blacksmith (+2 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Armorer (+1 to all armor, will NOT require blacksmith in order to be constructed), Master armorer (+2 to all armor)
- Silver mine (+3 mining), Large silver mine (+6 mining), Gold mine (+4 mining), Large gold mine (+8 mining). All mines require their respective resources in the province in order to be possible to build.
- Academy, University
- Level 5 walls

MILITARY BUILDINGS
- Muster field (javelinmen, coloni [cheap levies, light wooden spears]), Town militia (urban militia [HRE only], coloni +1 xp, +5% law), Police force (urban guard [HRE only], +10% law)
- Bowmaker (militia bowmen, liberi bowmen), Bowmaker's workshop (militia archers, liberi archers), Bowmaker's guild (militia archers +1 xp, liberi archers +1 xp, genoese crossbowmen [france and lotharingia only, ZOR: southeast france and northern Italy]), Master bowmaker (crossbowmen, pavise crossbowmen)
- Practise target (requires bowmaker, +1 missile weapon xp), Archery range (+2 missile weapon xp).
- Spearmaker (spear militia), Spearmaker's workshop (spear militia +1 xp), Spearmaker's guild (liberi spearmen [spears and large shields, medium spearmen, anti-cav bonus, 0 turns training time]), Master spearmaker (-)
- Horse farmer (militia swordscavalry, militia spearcavalry [javelin and spear]), Stables (pueri [light scout cavalry, rather cheap, swords and throwing spears], devroet [medium cavalry, spears and javelins, good charge, good morale, ZOR: northern France]), Cavalry stables (early milites [heavy cavalry, spears and swords, large shield, very good morale, elite, low discipline], early comes [heavy cavalry, small unit, spears and swords, armored, very good morale, elite, low discipline]), Elite cavalry stables (late milites [heavy cavalry, spears and swords, large shield, very good morale, elite, low discipline], late comes [heavy cavalry, small unit, spears and swords, armored, very good morale, elite, low discipline], knights templar [france only, 3 turns training, ZOR Jerusalem and France only, unlocked by event "capture Jerusalem + year after 1050"], knights hospitaller [lotharingia and HRE only, 3 turns training, ZOR Jerusalem, France and HRE only, unlocked by event "capture Jerusalem + year after 1050"])
- Cavalry training field (+1 to cavalry xp, requires Stables), Cavalry training grounds (+2 to cavalry xp, requires Cavalry stables), Cavalry academy (+3 to cavalry xp, requires Elite cavalry stables).
- Weaponsmith (militia axemen), Weaponsmith's workshop (-), Weaponsmith's guild (milites pedites axe [heavy armor, axes, low discipline], milites pedites sword [heavy armor, swords, low discipline]), Master weaponsmith (-)
- Barracks (requires Weaponsmith's workshop, +1 swordsmen xp), Army barracks (requires Weaponsmith's guild, +2 swordsmen xp), Military academy (requires Master weaponsmith, +3 swordsmen xp)
- Siege engineer (requires town, ballista), Siege engineer's workshop (requires large town, mangonel), Siege engineer's guild (requires city, -)


NORMANDIE

When Hrolf the Ganger and his viking forces recieved control over Normandy, their armies quickly incorporated the Frankish technology and tactics, and formed a cavalry force which was, in many ways, even better than their Frankish counterparts. Bringing with them high-quality viking infantry with lack of good support troops, they knew how to take advantage of the skills and fighting traditions of the peoples around them to end up with an army with both flexibility through variety, and professionalism through usage of the best in each field. In the battle of Hastings, for instance, the Normans brought cavalry of frankish style, heavy infantry of viking type, breton-avar influenced light infantry and missile troops of frankish and italian quality.

CIVIL BUILDINGS
- Chapel (+10 happiness, requires town), Church (+20 happiness, +1 morale, +5% law, requires large town), Cathedral (+40 happiness, +2 morale, +10% law, enable training of catholic fanatics - clubmen?, requires city)
- Abbey/Monastery (requires Church, +10% happiness - perhaps replace this building with specific monastery types for different religious orders granting different boni and which can only be built in a certain province/in certain provinces)
- Forest clearings (+5 farming, available from start in most provinces - high bonus to indicate how an important improvement this step means compared to no farming buildings), Farms (+8 farming), Crop rotation (+11 farming), Farming technology (+14 farming)
- Proper sewage (+10% health bonus), Herbal medicine (+15% health bonus), Water pipes (+20% health bonus).
- Paths, Mud roads, Paved roads
- Trader (+20% trade), Market (+40% trade), Merchant (+60% trade), Master merchant (+80 trade, +10% happiness)
- Trade port (no ships), Port (lvl 1 ships), Shipyard (lvl 2 ships), Dockyard (lvl 3 ships)
- Blacksmith (+1 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Master blacksmith (+2 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Armorer (+1 to all armor, will NOT require blacksmith in order to be constructed), Master armorer (+2 to all armor)
- Silver mine (+3 mining), Large silver mine (+6 mining), Gold mine (+4 mining), Large gold mine (+8 mining). All mines require their respective resources in the province in order to be possible to build.
- Academy, University
- Level 5 walls

MILITARY BUILDINGS
- Muster field (javelinmen, coloni [cheap levies, light wooden spears]), Town militia (coloni +1 xp, +5% law), Police force (+10% law)
- Bowmaker (militia bowmen, liberi bowmen), Bowmaker's workshop (militia archers, liberi archers), Bowmaker's guild (militia archers +1 xp, liberi archers +1 xp), Master bowmaker (crossbowmen)
- Practise target (requires bowmaker, +1 missile weapon xp), Archery range (+2 missile weapon xp).
- Spearmaker (spear militia), Spearmaker's workshop (spear militia +1 xp), Spearmaker's guild (liberi spearmen [spears and large shields, medium spearmen, anti-cav bonus, 0 turns training time]), Master spearmaker (-)
- Horse farmer (militia swordscavalry, militia spearcavalry [javelin and spear]), Stables (pueri [light scout cavalry, rather cheap, swords and throwing spears], devroet [medium cavalry, spears and javelins, good charge, good morale, ZOR: northern France]), Cavalry stables (early milites [heavy cavalry, spears and swords, large shield, very good morale, elite, low discipline], early comes [heavy cavalry, small unit, spears and swords, armored, very good morale, elite, low discipline]), Elite cavalry stables (late milites [heavy cavalry, spears and swords, large shield, very good morale, elite, low discipline], late comes [heavy cavalry, small unit, spears and swords, armored, very good morale, elite, low discipline], norman milites [heavy cavalry, spears and swords, large shield, very good morale, elite, low discipline, ZOR: Northern France])
- Cavalry training field (+1 to cavalry xp, requires Stables), Cavalry training grounds (+2 to cavalry xp, requires Cavalry stables), Cavalry academy (+3 to cavalry xp, requires Elite cavalry stables).
- Weaponsmith (landsmenn [axe, 0 turns training, more viking-like look, levies]), Weaponsmith's workshop (norman infantry [axe, medium armor, large drop-shield, good morale, fairly professional], breton infantry [light, fast, excellent morale, axe, primary weapon are javelins {very little ammo though}, can skirmish, ZOR: northern france]), Weaponsmith's guild (norman pedites [heavy armor, axes, drop-shield, good morale, low discipline]), Master weaponsmith (-)
- Barracks (requires Weaponsmith's workshop, +1 swordsmen xp), Army barracks (requires Weaponsmith's guild, +2 swordsmen xp), Military academy (requires Master weaponsmith, +3 swordsmen xp)
- Siege engineer (requires town, ballista), Siege engineer's workshop (requires large town, mangonel), Siege engineer's guild (requires city, -)


THE PAPACY

CIVIL BUILDINGS
- Chapel (+10 happiness, requires town), Church (+20 happiness, +1 morale, +5% law, requires large town), Cathedral (+40 happiness, +2 morale, +10% law, enable training of catholic fanatics - clubmen?, requires city)
- Abbey/Monastery (requires Church, +10% happiness - perhaps replace this building with specific monastery types for different religious orders granting different boni and which can only be built in a certain province/in certain provinces)
- Forest clearings (+5 farming, available from start in most provinces - high bonus to indicate how an important improvement this step means compared to no farming buildings), Farms (+8 farming), Crop rotation (+11 farming), Farming technology (+14 farming)
- Proper sewage (+10% health bonus), Herbal medicine (+15% health bonus), Water pipes (+20% health bonus)
- Paths, Mud roads, Paved roads
- Trader (+20% trade), Market (+40% trade), Merchant (+60% trade), Master merchant (+80 trade, +10% happiness)
- Trade port (no ships), Port (lvl 1 ships), Shipyard (lvl 2 ships), Dockyard (lvl 3 ships)
- Blacksmith (+1 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Master blacksmith (+2 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Armorer (+1 to all armor, will NOT require blacksmith in order to be constructed), Master armorer (+2 to all armor)
- Silver mine (+3 mining), Large silver mine (+6 mining), Gold mine (+4 mining), Large gold mine (+8 mining). All mines require their respective resources in the province in order to be possible to build.
- Academy, University
- Level 5 walls

MILITARY BUILDINGS
- Muster field (javelinmen, coloni [cheap levies, light wooden spears]), Town militia (urban militia, +5% law), Police force (+10% law)
- Bowmaker (militia bowmen, bowmen), Bowmaker's workshop (militia archers, archers), Bowmaker's guild (militia archer +1 xp, archers +1 xp, genoese crossbowmen [ZOR: southeast france and northern Italy]), Master bowmaker (crossbowmen, pavise crossbowmen)
- Practise target (requires bowmaker, +1 missile weapon xp), Archery range (+2 missile weapon xp)
- Spearmaker (spear militia), Spearmaker's workshop (spear militia +1 xp), Spearmaker's guild (liberi spearmen [spears and large shields, medium spearmen, anti-cav bonus, 0 turns training time]), Master spearmaker (-)
- Horse farmer (militia swordscavalry, militia spearcavalry [javelin and spear]), Stables (pueri [light scout cavalry, rather cheap, swords and throwing spears], devroet [medium cavalry, spears and javelins, good charge, good morale, ZOR: northern France]), Cavalry stables (early milites [heavy cavalry, spears and swords, large shield, very good morale, elite, low discipline], early comes [heavy cavalry, small unit, spears and swords, armored, very good morale, elite, low discipline]), Elite cavalry stables (late milites [heavy cavalry, spears and swords, large shield, very good morale, elite, low discipline], late comes [heavy cavalry, small unit, spears and swords, armored, very good morale, elite, low discipline])
- Cavalry training field (+1 to cavalry xp, requires Stables), Cavalry training grounds (+2 to cavalry xp, requires Cavalry stables), Cavalry academy (+3 to cavalry xp, requires Elite cavalry stables).
- Weaponsmith (militia axemen), Weaponsmith's workshop (-), Weaponsmith's guild (milites pedites axe [heavy armor, axes, low discipline], milites pedites sword [heavy armor, swords, low discipline]), Master weaponsmith (-)
- Barracks (requires Weaponsmith's workshop, +1 swordsmen xp), Army barracks (requires Weaponsmith's guild, +2 swordsmen xp), Military academy (requires Master weaponsmith, +3 swordsmen xp)
- Siege engineer (requires town, ballista), Siege engineer's workshop (requires large town, mangonel), Siege engineer's guild (-)


KINGDOM OF ASTURIA

CIVIL BUILDINGS
- Chapel (+10 happiness, requires town), Church (+20 happiness, +1 morale, +5% law, requires large town), Cathedral (+40 happiness, +2 morale, +10% law, enable training of catholic fanatics - clubmen?, requires city)
- Abbey/Monastery (requires Church, +10% happiness - perhaps replace this building with specific monastery types for different religious orders granting different boni and which can only be built in a certain province/in certain provinces)
- Forest clearings (+5 farming, available from start in most provinces - high bonus to indicate how an important improvement this step means compared to no farming buildings), Farms (+8 farming), Crop rotation (+11 farming), Farming technology (+14 farming)
- Proper sewage (+10% health bonus), Herbal medicine (+15% health bonus), Water pipes (+20% health bonus)
- Paths, Mud roads, Paved roads
- Trader (+20% trade), Market (+40% trade), Merchant (+60% trade), Master merchant (+80 trade, +10% happiness)
- Trade port (no ships), Port (lvl 1 ships), Shipyard (lvl 2 ships), Dockyard (lvl 3 ships)
- Blacksmith (+1 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Master blacksmith (+2 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Armorer (+1 to all armor, will NOT require blacksmith in order to be constructed), Master armorer (+2 to all armor)
- Silver mine (+3 mining), Large silver mine (+6 mining), Gold mine (+4 mining), Large gold mine (+8 mining). All mines require their respective resources in the province in order to be possible to build.
- Academy, University
- Level 5 walls

MILITARY BUILDINGS
- Muster field (peones [cheap levies, peasants with light wooden spears]), Town militia (+5% law)
- Bowmaker (peones bowmen), Bowmaker's workshop (archers), Bowmaker's guild (archers +1 xp), Master bowmaker (crossbowmen)
- Practise target (requires bowmaker, +1 missile weapon xp), Archery range (+2 missile weapon xp)
- Spearmaker (spear militia), Spearmaker's workshop (spearmen [medium spearmen, anti-cav bonus, 0 turns training time]), Spearmaker's guild (-), Master spearmaker (-)
- Horse farmer (militia swordscavalry, militia spearcavalry [javelin and spear]), Stables (scout cavalry, spearcavalry), Cavalry stables (caballeros villanos [medium cavalry, swords and javelins, lesser version of hidalgos], caballeros hidalgos [heavy cavalry, spears and swords, armored, very good morale, elite]), Elite cavalry stables (caballeros reales [elite, small unit], knights of santiago [3 turns training, ZOR Jerusalem, unlocked by event "capture Jerusalem + year after 1050"])
- Cavalry training field (+1 to cavalry xp, requires Stables), Cavalry training grounds (+2 to cavalry xp, requires Cavalry stables), Cavalry academy (+3 to cavalry xp, requires Elite cavalry stables).
- Weaponsmith (peones swordsmen [light infantry]), Weaponsmith's workshop (throwing axemen [light infantry]), Weaponsmith's guild (asturian foot knights [axe, slightly heavier]), Master weaponsmith (-)
- Barracks (requires Weaponsmith's workshop, +1 swordsmen xp), Army barracks (requires Weaponsmith's guild, +2 swordsmen xp), Military academy (requires Master weaponsmith, +3 swordsmen xp)
- Siege engineer (requires town, ballista), Siege engineer's workshop (requires large town, mangonel), Siege engineer's guild (-)


KHAZAR KHAGANATE

During it's peak, the Khazar khaganate could muster one of the best armies in the region, and was by many considered comparable to the Byzantine empire in strength and flexibility. The Khazar army was, like most other steppe armies, centered around horse archers and heavy cavalry, but being a relatively settled steppe people, the khazars also knew how to use infantry to support their cavalry. The khazar army relied on troops both from the khazar people, as well as from tributaries, especially the khwarazmian arsiyah cavalry, but also auxiliaries from alans, volga-bulgars and many others. Artillery was another field in which the khazar armies held much knowledge, and already early in the period the khazars had remarkably an effective artillery, that had for instance proved crucial in battles against the Abbassid khaliphate (The first and second khazar-arab wars).

CIVIL BUILDINGS
- Small synagogue (+10 happiness, requires town), Synagogue (+20 happiness, +1 morale, +5% law, requires large town), Large synagogue (+40 happiness, +2 morale, +10% law, requires city)
- Independent court (+10 happiness)
- Forest clearings (+5 farming, available from start in most provinces - high bonus to indicate how an important improvement this step means compared to no farming buildings), Farms (+8 farming), Crop rotation (+11 farming), Farming technology (+14 farming).
- Proper sewage (+10% health bonus), Herbal medicine (+15% health bonus).
- Paths, Mud roads
- Trader (+20% trade), Market (+40% trade), Merchant (+60% trade), Master merchant (+80 trade, +10% happiness)
- Trade port (no ships), Port (lvl 1 ships), Shipyard (lvl 2 ships), Dockyard (lvl 3 ships)
- Blacksmith (+1 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Master blacksmith (+2 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Armorer (+1 to all armor, will NOT require blacksmith in order to be constructed), Master armorer (+2 to all armor)
- Silver mine (+3 mining), Large silver mine (+6 mining), Gold mine (+4 mining), Large gold mine (+8 mining). All mines require their respective resources in the province in order to be possible to build.
- Academy, University
- Level 5 walls

MILITARY BUILDINGS
- Muster field (town watch), Town militia (urban militia, +5% law), Police force (+10% law)
- Bowmaker (slavic militia bowmen [no armor, short range]), Bowmaker's workshop (alan militia archers [no armor, ZOR: north and southeast of Caspian sea], khazar archers [light armor, cost more than the alans, longer recruit time]), Bowmaker's guild (khazar archers +1 xp), Master bowmaker (-)
- Practise target (requires bowmaker, +1 missile weapon xp), Archery range (+2 missile weapon xp)
- Spearmaker (slavic spearmen [slightly better than the militia spearman unit]), Spearmaker's workshop (arsiyah spearmen [equivalent to normal spearman unit, ZOR: Khazar core provinces]), Spearmaker's guild (khazar guard spearmen [equivalent to armored spearmen, but perhaps with better capabilities vs normal infantry - no phalanx therefore, armored - maybe even chainmail, very expensive]), Master spearmaker (-)
- Horse farmer (alan auxilia cavalry [high-quality light cavalry, anti-cav bonus, low to medium morale, ZOR: provinces north of Caspian sea]), Stables (khazar auxilia horse archers [light horse archers, low morale, bad meleé], bactrian camels [anti-cavalry bonus, slow, not overly impressive stats, fairly expensive, maybe small unit to limit their effectiveness and desirability, ZOR: provinces north of Caspian sea]), Cavalry stables (khazar horse archers [fairly good also in meleé, good morale], arsiyah cavalry [heavy cavalry, expensive, ZOR: Khazar starting provinces]), Elite cavalry stables (khazar royal cavalry [very expensive, bow and sword])
- Cavalry training field (+1 to cavalry xp, requires Stables), Cavalry training grounds (+2 to cavalry xp, requires Cavalry stables)
- Weaponsmith (khazar levy footmen [axe?]), Weaponsmith's workshop (khazar auxilia footmen [axe or perhaps sable?], musicians [no fighting ability, unnerve opponents]), Weaponsmith's guild (khazar guard swordsmen [armored, very expensive]), Master weaponsmith (-)
- Barracks (requires Swordsmaker's workshop, +1 swordsmen xp), Army barracks (requires Swordmaker's guild, +2 swordsmen xp).
- Siege engineer (requires town, ballista), Siege engineer's workshop (requires large town, mangonel), Siege engineer's guild (requires city, heavy mangonel)
(Khazars will have many good artillery training facilities available from start in their home provinces)


BULGAR KHANATE

CIVIL BUILDINGS
- Chapel (+10 happiness, requires town), Church (+20 happiness, +1 morale, +5% law, requires large town), Cathedral (+40 happiness, +2 morale, +10% law, requires city)
- MORE HAPPINESS BUILDINGS NEEDED
- Forest clearings (+5 farming, available from start in most provinces - high bonus to indicate how an important improvement this step means compared to no farming buildings), Farms (+8 farming), Crop rotation (+11 farming), Farming technology (+14 farming)
- Proper sewage (+10% health bonus), Herbal medicine (+15% health bonus)
- Paths, Mud roads
- Trader (+20% trade), Market (+40% trade), Merchant (+60% trade)
- Trade port (no ships), Port (lvl 1 ships), Shipyard (lvl 2 ships), Dockyard (lvl 3 ships)
- Blacksmith (+1 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Master blacksmith (+2 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Armorer (+1 to all armor, will NOT require blacksmith in order to be constructed), Master armorer (+2 to all armor)
- Silver mine (+3 mining), Large silver mine (+6 mining), Gold mine (+4 mining), Large gold mine (+8 mining). All mines require their respective resources in the province in order to be possible to build.
- Academy
- Level 4 walls

MILITARY BUILDINGS
- Muster field (slav javelinmen [slightly better than average javelinmen]), Town militia (+5% law)
- Bowmaker (bowmen), Bowmaker's workshop (bulgar archers [high-quality composite bow archers, wearing a conical hat with fur on it]), Bowmaker's guild (slingers +1 xp, archers +1 xp), Master bowmaker (-)
- Practise target (requires bowmaker, +1 missile weapon xp), Archery range (+2 missile weapon xp)
- Spearmaker (slavic spear militia [short spears and javelins, quite fast moving]), Spearmaker's workshop (slavic spearmen [slightly better spears, javelins, quite fast moving]), Spearmaker's guild (imnnik [heavy spearmen, armored, fairly long spear and shield, maybe phalanx]), Master spearmaker (-).
- Horse farmer (militia swordcavalry, miltia spearcavalry [spear and javelin]), Stables (bulgar horse archers [zera?], druzhina [medium cavalry]), Cavalry stables (bagaturs [heavy lancers with sabers, looking much like katapraktoi but with the horse armor only covering the front/chest of the horse, therefore faster than kataphraktoi], bulgarian boyars [saber and bow, elite unit, very expensive]), Elite cavalry stables (-)
- Cavalry training field (+1 to cavalry xp, requires Stables), Cavalry training grounds (+2 to cavalry xp, requires Cavalry stables), Cavalry academy (+3 to cavalry xp, requires Elite cavalry stables)
- Weaponsmith (militia axemen), Weaponsmith's workshop (bulgar swordsmen [chigot?, armed with sabers, light to medium troop]), Weaponsmith's guild (-), Master weaponsmith (-)
- Barracks (requires Weaponsmith's workshop, +1 swordsmen xp), Army barracks (requires Weaponsmith's guild, +2 swordsmen xp)
- Siege engineer (requires town, ballista), Siege engineer's workshop (requires large town, mangonel), Siege engineer's guild (-)


MAGYARS

The Magyars at the beginning of this period used an army consisting mostly of horse archers and heavy cavalry in a powerful combination. The settling in the Pannonia area and later conversion to Christianity led to some changes in the composition of the army - germano-frankish heavy cavalry was incorporated and replaced much of the traditional magyar cavalry, and eventually infantry saw more usage. However, infantry was rarely ever used by the magyars; whenever infantry was needed, it was often recruited from the local population. Mostly though, the Christian conversion only changed the appearance of the magyar troops, with the clothing looking more westernized.

CIVIL BUILDINGS
- Shrine to Úristen (+5 happiness, +5 law, requires town), Sacred groove of Úristen (+10 happiness, +10 law, requires large town), Sanctuary of Úristen (+20 happiness, +20 law, requires city).
- Shrine to Boldogasszony (+5 happiness, +5 health, requires town), Sacred groove of Boldogasszony (+10 happiness, +10 health, requires large town), Sanctuary of Boldogasszony (+20 happiness, +20 health, requires city).
- Forest clearings (+5 farming, available from start in most provinces - high bonus to indicate how an important improvement this step means compared to no farming buildings), Farms (+8 farming).
- Paths, Mud roads
- Trader (+20% trade), Market (+40% trade), Merchant (+60% trade)
- Trade port, Port, Shipyard
- Blacksmith (+1 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Master blacksmith (+2 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Armorer (+1 to all armor, will NOT require blacksmith in order to be constructed), Master armorer (+2 to all armor)
- Silver mine (+3 mining), Large silver mine (+6 mining), Gold mine (+4 mining), Large gold mine (+8 mining). All mines require their respective resources in the province in order to be possible to build.
- Level 3 walls

MILITARY BUILDINGS
- Muster field (javelinmen, town watch), Town militia (+5% law).
- Bowmaker (bowmen), Bowmaker's workshop (magyar archers), Bowmaker's guild (magyar archers +1 xp), Master bowmaker (crossbowmen [unlocked by Christian conversion])
- Practise target (requires bowmaker, +1 missile weapon xp), Archery range (+2 missile weapon xp)
- Spearmaker (spear militia), Spearmaker's workshop (spearmen), Spearmaker's guild (-), Master spearmaker (-)
- Horse farmer (kabarok [very light horse archers, bow, fast, good stamina, removed by Christian conversion], besenyok [very light horse archers, bow, fast, good stamina, Christian appearance, unlocked by Christian conversion]), Stables (early vitézek [light horse archers, bow, greater range, sword backup, removed by Christian conversion], late vitézek [unlocked by Christian conversion, same as early vitézek but with more Christian appearance], koplyások [medium cavalry archers, short bow, lance and small round shield, leather armor, removed by Christian conversion], várjobbágyok [medium cavalry archers, short bow, lance and small round shield, leather armor, fairly good in melee, unlocked by Christian conversion]), Cavalry stables (szekely [sword and bow, elite, small unit, ZOR: pannonian region], köplények [heavy cavalry, chainmail, lance and sword, removed by Christian conversion], german knights [heavy cavalry of eastern frankish appearance and stats, unlocked by either conquest of provinces far west or by conversion to Christianity - or perhaps both, ZOR: east frankish provinces or alternatively - require frankish culture building]), Elite cavalry stables (varjág testorök [heavy cavalry, lance, shield, short shafted axe, chainmail, unlocked by Christian conversion])
- Cavalry training field (+1 to cavalry xp, requires Stables), Cavalry training grounds (+2 to cavalry xp, requires Cavalry stables), Cavalry academy (+3 to cavalry xp, requires Elite cavalry stables).
- Weaponsmith (-), Weaponsmith's workshop (servants [very light troops, sable, shield]), Weaponsmith's guild (-), Master weaponsmith (-)
- Barracks (requires Weaponsmith's workshop, +1 swordsmen xp), Army barracks (requires Weaponsmith's guild, +2 swordsmen xp)
- Siege engineer (requires town, ballista), Siege engineer's workshop (requires large town, mangonel), Siege engineer's guild (-)


ROMAIKI AUTOKRATORIA
Also known as the byzantine empire

The Romanoi, being the descendants of the roman empire, continued the roman tradition of discipline and high quality army technology - most of which was stolen from the best opponents the roman armies had met in battle. The heavily armed kataphraktoi, in archer versions as well as in melee heavy cavalry versions was the main weapon. Historical data speaks of whole campaigns and even wars being fought by kataphraktoi regiments alone, but of course the kataphraktoi were most effective when supported by infantry and missile troops. The Romanoi army of this period was organized into one tagmata, a central army inserted into major wars in different locations, and a themata system, consisting of local militia units for regular defense against raids and smaller wars. As the opponents of the Romanoi grew stronger, the high-quality tagmata units became more and more important. The destruction of much of the tagmata in the battle of Manzikert in 1067 was a serious blow for the Romanoi, from which they never rose again. The tagmata-themata system was replaced by a system much like the western feudal system, with proniai, or landlords, providing troops for the empire. Throughout the period, mercenaries was a common way of getting hold of specialists impossible to recruit within the empire. The varangian guard was for instance formed by vikings, and was perhaps at the time the best infantry force in the entire world.

CIVIL BUILDINGS
- Chapel (+10 happiness, requires town), Church (+20 happiness, +1 morale, +5% law, requires large town), Cathedral (+40 happiness, +2 morale, +10% law, requires city)
- Race arena (allows races, +5% happiness), Hippodrome (allows races, +10% happiness), The Great Hippodrome (only available in Constantinople, and there it's built from start). Alternatively we add the ability to hold races to the late cavalry buildings.
- Forest clearings (+5 farming, available from start in most provinces - high bonus to indicate how an important improvement this step means compared to no farming buildings), Farms (+8 farming), Crop rotation (+11 farming), Farming technology (+14 farming)
- Proper sewage (+10% health bonus), Herbal medicine (+15% health bonus), Water pipes (+20% health bonus).
- Paths, Mud roads, Paved roads
- Trader (+20% trade), Market (+40% trade), Merchant (+60% trade), Master merchant (+80 trade, +10% happiness)
- Trade port (no ships), Port (lvl 1 ships), Shipyard (lvl 2 ships), Dockyard (lvl 3 ships)
- Blacksmith (+1 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Master blacksmith (+2 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Armorer (+1 to all armor, will NOT require blacksmith in order to be constructed), Master armorer (+2 to all armor)
- Silver mine (+3 mining), Large silver mine (+6 mining), Gold mine (+4 mining), Large gold mine (+8 mining). All mines require their respective resources in the province in order to be possible to build.
- Academy, University
- Level 5 walls

MILITARY BUILDINGS
- Muster field (psiloi javelinmen, town watch), Town militia (urban militia, +5% law), Police force (+10% law)
- Bowmaker (psiloi slingers), Bowmaker's workshop (psiloi archers), Bowmaker's guild (skutatoi archers [ZOR byzantine core provinces]), Master bowmaker (-).
- Practise target (requires bowmaker, +1 missile weapon xp), Archery range (+2 missile weapon xp).
- Weaponsmith (-), Weaponsmith's workshop (-), Weaponsmith's guild (menavlatoi [sword and pilum, ZOR byzantine core provinces]), Master weaponsmith (varangian guard [sword, ZOR byzantine core provinces])
- Barracks (requires Weaponsmith's workshop, +1 infantry xp), Army barracks (requires Weaponsmith's guild, +2 infantry xp), Military academy (requires Master weaponsmith, +3 infantry xp).
- Spearmaker (peltastoi [ZOR byzantine core provinces]), Spearmaker's workshop (skutatoi [ZOR byzantine core provinces]), Spearmaker's guild (heavy skutatoi [ZOR byzantine core provinces]), Master spearmaker (-).
- Horse farmer (trapetzitoi [light cav, lance, sword, ZOR byzantine core provinces]), Stables (sagittoi [light cav, bow, sword, ZOR byzantine core provinces]), Cavalry stables (kataphraktoi [shield, lance, sword, ZOR byzantine core provinces]), Elite cavalry stables (klibanophoroi [ZOR byzantine core provinces, lance - and mace])
- Cavalry training field (+1 to cavalry xp, requires Stables), Cavalry training grounds (+2 to cavalry xp, requires Cavalry stables), Cavalry academy (+3 to cavalry xp, requires Elite cavalry stables)
- Siege engineer (requires town, toxoballista [same as ballista, ZOR byzantine core provinces]), Siege engineer's workshop (requires large town, manganika [same as onager, ZOR byzantine core provinces]), Siege engineer's guild (requires city, spendones [heavy onager, ZOR byzantine core provinces], greek fire siphon projectors [maybe or maybe not to be included in the mod, ZOR byzantine core provinces])


KINGDOM OF ENGLISC
Also known as the Saxons

The Saxon army was mostly infantry based. During most of the period, the fyrd, a militia mostly armed with spears, was the main weapon. During Alfred the Great, the fyrd went through a temporary reform, and became a professional force, whereas local militia in the form of burwaran took care of garrisoning forts and similar tasks in support of the professional fyrd. After Alfred the Great, the fyrd again degenerated into a simple militia. Influences from the Danish vikings eventually led to the introduction of better axemen into the saxon armies. Cavalry was almost neglected, but the saxons had the knowledge needed for forming a cavalry force, and thegns (knights) saw service, although in limited numbers, during the entire period.

CIVIL BUILDINGS
- Chapel (+10 happiness, requires town), Church (+20 happiness, +1 morale, +5% law, requires large town), Cathedral (+40 happiness, +2 morale, +10% law, enable training of catholic fanatics - clubmen?, requires city)
- Abbey/Monastery (requires Church, +10% happiness - perhaps replace this building with specific monastery types for different religious orders granting different boni and which can only be built in a certain province/in certain provinces)
- Forest clearings (+5 farming, available from start in most provinces - high bonus to indicate how an important improvement this step means compared to no farming buildings), Farms (+8 farming), Crop rotation (+11 farming)
- Proper sewage (+10% health bonus), Herbal medicine (+15% health bonus)
- Paths, Mud roads
- Trader (+20% trade), Market (+40% trade), Merchant (+60% trade)
- Trade port (no ships), Port (lvl 1 ships), Shipyard (lvl 2 ships), Dockyard (lvl 3 ships)
- Blacksmith (+1 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Master blacksmith (+2 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Armorer (+1 to all armor, will NOT require blacksmith in order to be constructed), Master armorer (+2 to all armor)
- Silver mine (+3 mining), Large silver mine (+6 mining), Gold mine (+4 mining), Large gold mine (+8 mining). All mines require their respective resources in the province in order to be possible to build.
- Academy
- Level 3 walls

MILITARY BUILDINGS
- Muster field (javelinmen [cheap unit of low quality]), Town militia (burwaran [short spearmen, no skirmish], coastal burwaran [seamen, slightly different version of burwaran], +5% law)
- Bowmaker (bowmen), Bowmaker's workshop (archers, slingers), Bowmaker's guild (archers +1 xp, slingers +1 xp), Master bowmaker (crossbowmen [unlocked by rare, secret ~D script, not very likely to appear in campaigns])
- Practise target (requires bowmaker, +1 missile weapon xp), Archery range (+2 missile weapon xp).
- Spearmaker (-), Spearmaker's workshop (fyrdmen), Spearmaker's guild (armored fyrdmen), Master spearmaker (lithsmen [very heavy spearmen, unlocked by secret scripting - hint: close contact with viking troops can influence the saxon army in a desirable way]).
- Horse farmer (militia swordscavalry), Stables (scout cavalry, spearcavalry [spear and javelin]), Cavalry stables (saxon sergeants [spear and javelin], saxon thegns [spear]), Elite cavalry stables (-)
- Cavalry training field (+1 to cavalry xp, requires Stables), Cavalry training grounds (+2 to cavalry xp, requires Cavalry stables)
- Weaponsmith (-), Weaponsmith's workshop (northumbrian fyrd [axe], mercian fyrd [long knife]), Swordsmaker's guild (saxon huscarles [axe]), Master swordsmaker (butescarles [like huscarles but better, unlocked by secret scripting of same type as for the lithsmen])
- Barracks (requires Weaponsmith's workshop, +1 swordsmen xp), Army barracks (requires Weaponsmith's guild, +2 swordsmen xp).
- Siege engineer (requires town, ballista), Siege engineer's workshop (requires large town, mangonel), Siege engineer's guild (-)


KINGDOM OF ALBA
Also known as the Scots

The kingdom of Alba of this period used traditional gaelic technology and tactics, influenced somewhat by pictish warfare. This means an army centered around spearmen and axemen, often armed also with throwing spears and javelins, only with limited cavalry and missile support. The Scottish missile troops were slightly better than those of the gaelic armies of Éire, but still is far from comparable to the best missile troops of the period.

CIVIL BUILDINGS
- Chapel (+10 happiness, requires town), Church (+20 happiness, +1 morale, +5% law, requires large town), Cathedral (+40 happiness, +2 morale, +10% law, enable training of catholic fanatics - clubmen?, requires city)
- Abbey/Monastery (requires Church, +10% happiness - perhaps replace this building with specific monastery types for different religious orders granting different boni and which can only be built in a certain province/in certain provinces)
- Forest clearings (+5 farming, available from start in most provinces - high bonus to indicate how an important improvement this step means compared to no farming buildings), Farms (+8 farming), Crop rotation (+11 farming)
- Proper sewage (+10% health bonus), Herbal medicine (+15% health bonus).
- Paths, Mud roads
- Trader (+20% trade), Market (+40% trade), Merchant (+60% trade)
- Trade port (no ships), Port (lvl 1 ships), Shipyard (lvl 2 ships), Dockyard (lvl 3 ships)
- Blacksmith (+1 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Master blacksmith (+2 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Armorer (+1 to all armor, will NOT require blacksmith in order to be constructed), Master armorer (+2 to all armor)
- Silver mine (+3 mining), Large silver mine (+6 mining), Gold mine (+4 mining), Large gold mine (+8 mining). All mines require their respective resources in the province in order to be possible to build.
- Level 3 walls

MILITARY BUILDINGS
- Muster field (kernbannal [mean "levy troop", unarmored, club or spear, darts, are skirmishers]), Town militia (+5% law)
- Bowmaker (soikernbannal [levy, stats like bowmen, can hide in long grass]), Bowmaker's workshop (regyddite bognaghta [armed with bows, unlocked by script "control southwest Scotland area"]), Bowmaker's guild (-), Master bowmaker (criosionaghta [crossbowmen, leather armor, iron helmet, cudgel/mace backup])
- Practise target (requires bowmaker, +1 missile weapon xp), Archery range (+2 missile weapon xp)
- Spearmaker (pictish gaenaghta [light pict spearmen, javelins, small round shield]), Spearmaker's workshop (sleanaghta [spear, heavy throwing spears, large round shield, leather helmet, leather vest/coat]), Spearmaker's guild (gaemornaghta [long two-handed spear, phalanx, leather helmet, leather coat]), Master spearmaker (-)
- Horse farmer (guirran [light cavalry, overhand spear, large round shield, javelins, leather helmet, leather coat]), Stables (-), Cavalry stables (amguirran ridire [heavy cavalry, axes/swords, lance, large-ring chain armor, large round shield, iron conical helmet without nose guard, very expensive]), Elite cavalry stables (-)
- Cavalry training field (+1 to cavalry xp, requires Stables), Cavalry training grounds (+2 to cavalry xp, requires Cavalry stables)
- Weaponsmith (pictish taghnaghta [light pict axemen, small round shield - smaller than Gaelic targe]), Weaponsmith's workshop (tuanaghta [axe, heavy throwing spears, large round shield, leather helmet, leather coat], ridire [heavy infantry, axes, large-ring chain armor, large round shield, iron conical helmet, throwing spears]), Weaponsmith's guild (claiomhnaghta [mid-length swordsmen, javelins, large round shield, leather helmet, leather coat], arras [foot nobles, longswords, chain armor, large round shield, iron conical helmet, javelins, expensive]), Master weaponsmith (gaelo-british arras [two-handed axe, no shield, otherwise much like arras])
- Barracks (requires Swordsmaker's workshop, +1 swordsmen xp), Army barracks (requires Swordmaker's guild, +2 swordsmen xp).
- Siege engineer (requires town, ballista), Siege engineer's workshop (requires large town, mangonel), Siege engineer's guild (-)


ÉIRE

The Irish armies were, just like the Scottish, based on gaelic tradition in this period, and fought with spears and javelin skirmishers with limited cavalry and missile support. The viking influences which begun in this mod's period later led to the incorporating of viking fighting style and equipment in the form of the bonnachta, but that development took place after this mod's ending date, and the Irish army is therefore mostly of gaelic type.

CIVIL BUILDINGS
- Chapel (+10 happiness, requires town), Church (+20 happiness, +1 morale, +5% law, requires large town), Cathedral (+40 happiness, +2 morale, +10% law, enable training of rastriagha [catholic fanatics, armed with hammer - axe/cudgel also possible, round shield, probably wearing a crucifix, no armor, well trained], requires city)
- Abbey/Monastery (requires Church, +10% happiness - perhaps replace this building with specific monastery types for different religious orders granting different boni and which can only be built in a certain province/in certain provinces)
- Forest clearings (+5 farming, available from start in most provinces - high bonus to indicate how an important improvement this step means compared to no farming buildings), Farms (+8 farming), Crop rotation (+11 farming)
- Proper sewage (+10% health bonus), Herbal medicine (+15% health bonus).
- Paths, Mud roads
- Trader (+20% trade), Market (+40% trade), Merchant (+60% trade)
- Trade port (no ships), Port (lvl 1 ships), Shipyard (lvl 2 ships), Dockyard (lvl 3 ships)
- Blacksmith (+1 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Master blacksmith (+2 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Armorer (+1 to all armor, will NOT require blacksmith in order to be constructed), Master armorer (+2 to all armor)
- Silver mine (+3 mining), Large silver mine (+6 mining), Gold mine (+4 mining), Large gold mine (+8 mining). All mines require their respective resources in the province in order to be possible to build.
- Level 3 walls

MILITARY BUILDINGS
- Muster field (kernbannal [mean "levy troop", unarmored, club or spear, darts, are skirmishers]), Town militia (+5% law)
- Bowmaker (soikernbannal [levy, stats like bowmen, can hide in long grass]), Bowmaker's workshop (maiobhanaghta [slingers, small round shield, knife backup, better than the Irish archers]), Bowmaker's guild (-), Master bowmaker (-)
- Practise target (requires bowmaker, +1 missile weapon xp), Archery range (+2 missile weapon xp)
- Spearmaker (-), Spearmaker's workshop (sleanaghta [spear, heavy throwing spears, large round shield, leather helmet, padded coat]), Spearmaker's guild (gaemornaghta [long two-handed spear, phalanx, leather helmet, padded coat]), Master spearmaker (-)
- Horse farmer (guirran [light cavalry, overhand spear, large round shield, javelins, leather helmet, padded coat]), Stables (-), Cavalry stables (amguirran ridire [heavy cavalry, axes/swords, lance, large-ring chain armor, large round shield, iron conical helmet without nose guard, very expensive]), Elite cavalry stables (-)
- Cavalry training field (+1 to cavalry xp, requires Stables), Cavalry training grounds (+2 to cavalry xp, requires Cavalry stables)
- Weaponsmith (-), Weaponsmith's workshop (tuanaghta [axe, heavy throwing spears, large round shield, leather helmet, leather coat], ridire [heavy infantry, axes, large-ring chain armor, large round shield, iron conical helmet, throwing spears], caeisornaghta [macemen, round-headed mace - not flanged, like medieval period mace, round shield, throwing spears, leather helmet, padded armor]), Weaponsmith's guild (claiomhnaghta [mid-length swordsmen, javelins, large round shield, leather helmet, leather coat], arras [foot nobles, longswords, chain armor, large round shield, iron conical helmet, javelins, expensive], inishnaghta [heavy cloaks, no armor, large round shield, bipenne axe - two blades, heavy throwing spears, leather helmet, painted skin, ZOR Ireland]), Master weaponsmith (-)
- Barracks (requires Swordsmaker's workshop, +1 swordsmen xp), Army barracks (requires Swordmaker's guild, +2 swordsmen xp)
- Siege engineer (requires town, ballista), Siege engineer's workshop (requires large town, mangonel), Siege engineer's guild (-)


GWYNEDD
Also known as the Welsh

The Welsh army was based on celtic traditions, but the isolation from other celts after the anglo-saxon conquest of most of Southern Britain led to some unique innovations and led the Welsh army to develop differently from, for instance, the Breton and Pictish armies. The Welsh main weapon soon became the fearsome longbow, which proved effective even in as limited numbers as the Welsh could muster. Later, when deployed en masse by the norman dynasties of England, it decided the outcome of major battles such as Crezy, Poitiers and Agincourt several centuries after this time period! The Welsh armies mostly used spear-armed skirmishers in support of their longbows, and also had quite formidable cavalry, although the cavalry were few in numbers. Mobility of skirmishers, and clever ambushes, are tactics the Welsh commander will have to use. It's also crucial to use the own cavalry and, again ambushes and longbows, to counter enemy cavalry and allow the skirmishers to carry out their lethal work undisturbed... In fighting the saxons, the Welsh found a crucial anti-cavalry weapon in their javelin-armed light cavalry. The personal bodyguard units of kings and princes, the teulu, was also a powerful weapon, which in the earlier parts of the period used spears, and later introduced lance and heavier armor.

CIVIL BUILDINGS
- Chapel (+10 happiness, requires town), Church (+20 happiness, +1 morale, +5% law, requires large town), Cathedral (+40 happiness, +2 morale, +10% law, enable training of catholic fanatics - clubmen?, requires city)
- Abbey/Monastery (requires Church, +10% happiness - perhaps replace this building with specific monastery types for different religious orders granting different boni and which can only be built in a certain province/in certain provinces)
- Forest clearings (+5 farming, available from start in most provinces - high bonus to indicate how an important improvement this step means compared to no farming buildings), Farms (+8 farming), Crop rotation (+11 farming)
- Proper sewage (+10% health bonus), Herbal medicine (+15% health bonus).
- Paths, Mud roads
- Trader (+20% trade), Market (+40% trade), Merchant (+60% trade)
- Trade port (no ships), Port (lvl 1 ships), Shipyard (lvl 2 ships), Dockyard (lvl 3 ships)
- Blacksmith (+1 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Master blacksmith (+2 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Armorer (+1 to all armor, will NOT require blacksmith in order to be constructed), Master armorer (+2 to all armor)
- Silver mine (+3 mining), Large silver mine (+6 mining), Gold mine (+4 mining), Large gold mine (+8 mining). All mines require their respective resources in the province in order to be possible to build.
- Level 3 walls

MILITARY BUILDINGS
- Muster field (town watch), Town militia (+5% law)
- Bowmaker (cymri dynne [short bows of very good quality]), Bowmaker's workshop (cymri dynne +1 xp), Bowmaker's guild (cymri dynneabhr [longbows, long range, armor-piercing, fast]), Master bowmaker (cymri dynneabhr +1 xp)
- Practise target (requires bowmaker, +1 missile weapon xp), Archery range (+2 missile weapon xp)
- Spearmaker (welsh skirmishers [low defense, low attack, good charge, short spears, javelins, not that much anti-cav bonus]), Spearmaker's workshop (spearmen [the usual ones with their good anti-cav bonus], welsh warband [medium defense, medium attack, good charge, longer spears, javelins/darts, not that much anti-cav bonus]), Spearmaker's guild (-), Master spearmaker (-)
- Horse farmer (militia swordscavalry, militia spearcavalry [javelin and spear]), Stables (scout cavalry, spearcavalry [spear and javelin]), Cavalry stables (dumnonian cavalry [good medium/heavy cavalry however no match for the best feudal or frankish knights, better than saxon sergeants in meleé but less impressive than the best saxon knights, ZOR west wealas], early teulu [spear and javelins, chainmail, helmet, shield, almost equivalent to frankish knights but the small unit makes them weaker in total, expensive]), Elite cavalry stables (teulu [lance, chainmail, helmet, shield, almost equivalent to feudal knights but the small unit makes them weaker in total, expensive])
- Cavalry training field (+1 to cavalry xp, requires Stables), Cavalry training grounds (+2 to cavalry xp, requires Cavalry stables).
- Weaponsmith (militia axemen), Weaponsmith's workshop (welsh axemen [axe and javelin, medium shield, good attack, can hide in long grass]), Weaponsmith's guild (welsh bandits [axe or sword and bow, medium shield, can hide in long grass]), Master weaponsmith (-)
- Barracks (requires Swordsmaker's workshop, +1 swordsmen xp), Army barracks (requires Swordmaker's guild, +2 swordsmen xp)
- Siege engineer (requires town, ballista), Siege engineer's workshop (requires large town, mangonel), Siege engineer's guild (-)


NORWAY, DENMARK, SWEDEN

The viking factions used armies consisting mostly of infantry of very high quality throughout the period. The lack of good cavalry became critical at the end of the period, but the fact that their armies could do so well even without a powerful cavalry says a lot about the quality of their infantry - and ships, which gave them a high mobility and allowed them to carry out fast raids and assemble local superiority in numbers when needed. The only viking nation that could train a decent cavalry force at the end of the period was Denmark, influenced somewhat by the frankish cavalry of the Holy roman empire.

CIVIL BUILDINGS
- Shrine to Odin/Thor/Freya (+10 happiness, requires town, odin:+1 xp, thor: +1 weapons, freya: +1 population growth), Sacred groove of Odin/Thor/Freya (+20 happiness, requires large town, odin:+2 xp, enable training of viking berserkers, thor: +1 weapons +1 armor, freya +2 population growth +5% law), Sanctuary of Odin/Thor/Freya (+30 happiness, requires city, odin +3 xp +5% law, thor: +2 weapons +1 armor, freya: +3 population growth, +10% law).
- Tavern (+5% happiness, allows thing to be held), Mead hall (+10% happiness).
- Forest clearings (+5 farming, available from start in most provinces - high bonus to indicate how an important improvement this step means compared to no farming buildings), Farms (+8 farming), Crop rotation (+11 farming)
- Proper sewage (+10% health bonus).
- Paths, Mud roads
- Trader (+20% trade), Market (+40% trade), Merchant (+60% trade)
- Trade port (+trade bonus, lvl 1 ships), Port (+trade bonus, lvl 2 ships), Shipyard (+trade bonus, lvl 3 ships), Dockyard (+trade bonus, maybe lvl 4 ships)
- Blacksmith (+1 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Master blacksmith (+2 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Armorer (+1 to all armor, will NOT require blacksmith in order to be constructed), Master armorer (+2 to all armor)
- Silver mine (+3 mining), Large silver mine (+6 mining), Gold mine (+4 mining), Large gold mine (+8 mining). All mines require their respective resources in the province in order to be possible to build.
- Level 3 walls

MILITARY BUILDINGS
- Muster field (javelinmen, bondi)
- Bowmaker (bowmen), Bowmaker's workshop (viking archers), Bowmaker's guild (viking archers +1 xp, birkebeiner archers [zone of recruit Norway and western part of Sweden]), Master bowmaker (crossbowmen)
- Practise target (requires bowmaker, +1 missile weapon xp), Archery range (+2 missile weapon xp).
- Spearmaker (spear militia), Spearmaker's workshop (viking spearmen), Spearmaker's guild (geirrmen), Master spearmaker (-)
- Horse farmer (militia swordscavalry), Stables (viking raider cavalry), Cavalry stables (-), Elite cavalry stables (danish knights [danes only])
- Cavalry training field (+1 to cavalry xp, requires Stables), Cavalry training grounds (+2 to cavalry xp, requires Cavalry stables)
- Weaponsmith (landsmenn [axe, 0 turns training]), Weaponsmith's workshop (karls [axe, 0 or 1 turns training], gestr [axe, more expensive]), Weaponsmith's guild (viking huskarls [axe, more expensive than karls], birkebeiners [sword and bow, small unit, expensive, 2 or 3 turns training, ZOR scandinavia], jarl's hird [expensive]), Master weaponsmith (karls +1 xp, joms vikings [small unit, expensive, zone of recruit northern Poland, rare and hard to get, perhaps only unlocked through scripting], royal hird [sword, small unit, very expensive])
- Barracks (requires Swordsmaker's workshop, +1 swordsmen xp), Army barracks (requires Swordmaker's guild, +2 swordsmen xp)
- Siege engineer (requires town, ballista), Siege engineer's workshop (requires large town, mangonel), Siege engineer's guild (-)


RUS
Also known as the people of Novgorod, and later known as the Kievan Rus

The early Rus army consisted of a mixture of viking and slavic warfare traditions. The expansions further south led to the incorporating of typical steppe tactics and equipment, and resulted in a formidable army comparable in strength and skills to both the Khazars and Byzantines. The Khazar khaganate was, for example, destroyed partly due to the expansion of the Kievan Rus, and the flexible Rus army helped the Rus to establish one of the strongest empires of the early middle ages, and it took internal rivalry in combination with the mongol expansion under generals like Subotai to push the Rus back north. The Rus expansion can however not only be attributed to the army, but also to the economical situation of the Kievan Rus empire, which allowed them to keep a large army running.

CIVIL BUILDINGS
- Chapel (+10 happiness, requires town), Church (+20 happiness, +1 morale, +5% law, requires large town), Cathedral (+40 happiness, +2 morale, +10% law, requires city)
- MORE HAPPINESS BUILDINGS NEEDED
- Forest clearings (+5 farming, available from start in most provinces - high bonus to indicate how an important improvement this step means compared to no farming buildings), Farms (+8 farming), Crop rotation (+11 farming)
- Proper sewage (+10% health bonus), Herbal medicine (+15% health bonus)
- Paths, Mud roads
- Trader (+20% trade), Market (+40% trade), Merchant (+60% trade), Master merchant (+80 trade, +10% happiness)
- Trade port (no ships), Port (lvl 1 ships), Shipyard (lvl 2 ships), Dockyard (lvl 3 ships)
- Blacksmith (+1 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Master blacksmith (+2 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Armorer (+1 to all armor, will NOT require blacksmith in order to be constructed), Master armorer (+2 to all armor)
- Silver mine (+3 mining), Large silver mine (+6 mining), Gold mine (+4 mining), Large gold mine (+8 mining). All mines require their respective resources in the province in order to be possible to build.
- Academy
- Level 4 walls

MILITARY BUILDINGS
- Muster field (slav javelinmen [slightly better than average javelinmen]), Town militia (+5% law)
- Bowmaker (militia bowmen), Bowmaker's workshop (archers), Bowmaker's guild (archers +1 xp), Master bowmaker (crossbowmen)
- Practise target (requires bowmaker, +1 missile weapon xp), Archery range (+2 missile weapon xp)
- Spearmaker (slavic spear militia [short spears and javelins, quite fast moving]), Spearmaker's workshop (slavic spearmen [slightly better spears, javelins, quite fast moving]), Spearmaker's guild (varangian spearmen), Master spearmaker (-)
- Horse farmer (militia swordscavalry), Stables (horse archers [light horse archers, bad in meleé, low morale, unlocked by script: conquer territories further south], steppe cavalry [spear, anti-cavalry bonus, very fast, unlocked by script: conquer territories further south]), Cavalry stables (rus druzhina [lance and axe, bonus vs armored troops, quite heavy cavalry]), Elite cavalry stables (rus boyars [heavy cavalry, good in meleé vs both infantry and cavalry but slightly weaker than the heaviest western knights etc. because they have slightly lighter armor and no lance, bow and sword])
- Cavalry training field (+1 to cavalry xp, requires Stables), Cavalry training grounds (+2 to cavalry xp, requires Cavalry stables), Cavalry academy (+3 to cavalry xp, requires Elite cavalry stables)
- Weaponsmith (militia axemen), Weaponsmith's workshop (varangian axemen [round shield, typical viking infantry]), Weaponsmith's guild (varangian heavy axemen [stats-wise like viking heavy infantry]), Master weaponsmith (-)
- Barracks (requires Swordsmaker's workshop, +1 swordsmen xp), Army barracks (requires Swordmaker's guild, +2 swordsmen xp), Military academy (requires Master swordsmaker, +3 swordsmen xp)
- Siege engineer (requires town, ballista), Siege engineer's workshop (requires large town, mangonel), Siege engineer's guild (-)


ABBASSID KHALIPHATE (still under construction)
Also known as the Baghdad khaliphate

CIVIL BUILDINGS
- Minarete (+10 happiness, requires town), Mosque (+20 happiness, +1 morale, +5% law, requires large town), Large mosque (+40 happiness, +2 morale, +10% law, requires city)
- MORE HAPPINESS BUILDINGS NEEDED!
- Forest clearings (+5 farming, available from start in most provinces - high bonus to indicate how an important improvement this step means compared to no farming buildings), Farms (+8 farming), Crop rotation (+11 farming), Farming technology (+14 farming), Feudal farming (+farming)
- Proper sewage (+10% health bonus), Herbal medicine (+15% health bonus), Water pipes (+20% health bonus)
- Paths, Mud roads
- Trader (+20% trade), Market (+40% trade), Merchant (+60% trade), Master merchant (+80 trade, +10% happiness)
- Trade port (no ships), Port (lvl 1 ships), Shipyard (lvl 2 ships), Dockyard (lvl 3 ships)
- Blacksmith (+1 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Master blacksmith (+2 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Armorer (+1 to all armor, will NOT require blacksmith in order to be constructed), Master armorer (+2 to all armor)
- Silver mine (+3 mining), Large silver mine (+6 mining), Gold mine (+4 mining), Large gold mine (+8 mining). All mines require their respective resources in the province in order to be possible to build.
- Academy, University, Great university
- Level 5 walls

MILITARY BUILDINGS
- Muster field (javelinmen, town watch, peasants), Town militia (urban militia, +5% law), Police force (urban guard, +10% law)
- Bowmaker (militia bowmen, desert bowmen), Bowmaker's workshop (militia archers, desert archers), Bowmaker's guild (militia archer +1 xp, desert archers +1 xp), Master bowmaker (crossbowmen, napta throwers [maybe not included if it's impossible to fix napta, small unit, expensive])
- Practise target (requires bowmaker, +1 missile weapon xp), Archery range (+2 missile weapon xp)
- Spearmaker (spear militia), Spearmaker's workshop (desert spearmen, nubian spearmen [good morale, relatively cheap, ZOR nubia and egyptian provinces]), Spearmaker's guild (desert spearmen +1 xp), Master spearmaker (saracen infantry)
- Horse farmer (militia swordscavalry, militia spearcavalry), Stables (saharan cavalry [militia light cavalry, ZOR north africa], mamluk light cavalry [professional light cavalry], bedouin camel warriors [scare horses, poor morale, very much combat bonus in deserts, ZOR north africa, sinai, arabia and syria]), Cavalry stables (ghulam cavalry [medium cavalry - faster but weaker than most other heavy cavs, but desert combat bonus can nearly make up for that in deserts]), Elite cavalry stables (khwarazmian cavalry [heavy cavalry])
- Cavalry training field (+1 to cavalry xp, requires Stables), Cavalry training grounds (+2 to cavalry xp, requires Cavalry stables), Cavalry academy (+3 to cavalry xp, requires Elite cavalry stables)
- Weaponsmith (arab militia swordsmen [sable]), Weaponsmith's workshop (arab militia axemen, arab swordsmen), Weaponsmith's guild (arab axemen), Master weaponsmith (-)
- Barracks (requires Weaponsmith's workshop, +1 swordsmen xp), Army barracks (requires Weaponsmith's guild, +2 swordsmen xp), Military academy (requires Master weaponsmith, +3 swordsmen xp)
- Siege engineer (requires town, ballista), Siege engineer's workshop (requires large town, mangonel), Siege engineer's guild (requires city, heavy mangonel)


AL ANDALUS

CIVIL BUILDINGS
- Minarete (+10 happiness, requires town), Mosque (+20 happiness, +1 morale, +5% law, requires large town), Large mosque (+40 happiness, +2 morale, +10% law, requires city, al-murabitin [small unit, fanatics, black top coats, black cloaks, black veils, sword])
- MORE HAPPINESS BUILDINGS NEEDED!
- Forest clearings (+5 farming, available from start in most provinces - high bonus to indicate how an important improvement this step means compared to no farming buildings), Farms (+8 farming), Crop rotation (+11 farming), Farming technology (+14 farming), Feudal farming (+farming)
- Proper sewage (+10% health bonus), Herbal medicine (+15% health bonus), Water pipes (+20% health bonus)
- Paths, Mud roads
- Trader (+20% trade), Market (+40% trade), Merchant (+60% trade), Master merchant (+80 trade, +10% happiness)
- Trade port (no ships), Port (lvl 1 ships), Shipyard (lvl 2 ships), Dockyard (lvl 3 ships)
- Blacksmith (+1 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Master blacksmith (+2 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Armorer (+1 to all armor, will NOT require blacksmith in order to be constructed), Master armorer (+2 to all armor)
- Silver mine (+3 mining), Large silver mine (+6 mining), Gold mine (+4 mining), Large gold mine (+8 mining). All mines require their respective resources in the province in order to be possible to build.
- Academy, University, Great university
- Level 5 walls

MILITARY BUILDINGS
- Muster field (hashid javelinmen, town watch), Town militia (urban militia, +5% law), Police force (+10% law)
- Bowmaker (hashid archers [levies, single-colored shield in bright color, topcoat, tunic and trousers in paster scarlet, red, blue, yellow, white, white turban], hashid slingers [levies, single-colored shield in bright color, topcoat, tunic and trousers in paster scarlet, red, blue, yellow, white, white turban]), Bowmaker's workshop (jund archers, jund slingers, abid archers [senegalese slaves, possible ZOR: southwest parts of North Africa]), Bowmaker's guild (-), Master bowmaker (crossbowmen)
- Practise target (requires bowmaker, +1 missile weapon xp), Archery range (+2 missile weapon xp)
- Spearmaker (hashid spearmen [light levies, single-colored shield in bright color, topcoat, tunic and trousers in paster scarlet, red, blue, yellow, white, white turban]), Spearmaker's workshop (jund spearmen [medium spearmen], abid spearmen [senegalese slaves, cheap recruitment cost, long leather shields, bamboo spears, white tunics with waist band, no turban, maybe ZOR: southwest parts of North Africa]), Spearmaker's guild (-), Master spearmaker (-)
- Horse farmer (hashid cavalry [militia cavalry, spears]), Stables (jund light cavalry [professional light cavalry], berber camel militia [militia, anti-cav bonus, slow, sword], berber camel archers [semi-professional, anti-cav bonus, weak melee, slow, sword and bow]), Cavalry stables (berber horse archers [light horse archers, fast], hashid cavalry [levies, single-colored shield in bright color, topcoat, tunic and trousers in paster scarlet, red, blue, yellow, white, white turban, stats like ghulams, heavy cavalry]), Elite cavalry stables (-)
- Cavalry training field (+1 to cavalry xp, requires Stables), Cavalry training grounds (+2 to cavalry xp, requires Cavalry stables), Cavalry academy (+3 to cavalry xp, requires Elite cavalry stables).
- Weaponsmith (arab infantry [light militia axemen]), Weaponsmith's workshop (-), Weaponsmith's guild (-), Master weaponsmith (-)
- Barracks (requires Weaponsmith's workshop, +1 swordsmen xp), Army barracks (requires Weaponsmith's guild, +2 swordsmen xp), Military academy (requires Master weaponsmith, +3 swordsmen xp)
- Siege engineer (requires town, ballista), Siege engineer's workshop (requires large town, mangonel), Siege engineer's guild (requires city, heavy mangonel)


MERCENARIES

BRITISH ISLES AREA
- Ostmen [medium to heavy axemen, slightly below level 3 troops, fairly expensive, dressed like Gaels, norse round shield, viking sword or axe, leather armor, round metal helmet, HIRING ZONE: eastern Ireland and all of Scotland, slow replenish]
- Curuarcibuanna [means "Red Dog mercenaries", assassins and medium equipment shock troops, heavy shield, sword, throwing spears, can hide in tall grass, same model as Caliomnaghta, expensive, weaker in meleé than the Ostmen and huscarles but throwing spears strengthens them in the combat compared to ostmen, slightly smaller unit than average line troops, HIRING ZONE: all of Britain, slow replenish]
- Gael gaedhilbuanna [gaelic-norse light raider infantry, good attack but low defense - especially vs cavalry, medium cost, HIRING ZONE: eastern Ireland and southwest Scotland - perhaps some more. Not existing from start, medium replenish speed)
- Cymri Dynne [welsh shortbowmen, medium cost, HIRING ZONE: wales, scotland, east ireland, saxon provinces, medium replenish]
- Cymri Dynneabhr [welsh longbowmen, expensive, HIRING ZONE: Welsh provinces with medium replenish, near wales with slow replenish]

BOTH IN SCANDINAVIA AND BRITISH ISLES AREA
- Viking huscarles mercenaries [heavy axemen, level 3 equivalent, very expensive, large dropshape shield, axe, chain mail, HIRING ZONE: eastern and southern Britain with slow to medium replenish, none available from start, Scandinavia around Vaestfold, Waestrogothia and Svithjod from start with slow to medium replenish, one pool for all Danish provinces with slow to medium replenish]

RIVIERA AREA
- Genoese crossbowmen mercenaries [HIRING ZONE: northern Italy with medium replenish, French riviera area with slow to medium replenish]

MIDDLE EAST AND NORTH AFRICA AREA
- Bedoiun camel mercenaries [HIRING ZONE: northeast Africa, Arabia, Syria and Middle east coast provinces]
- Abyssinian guard [very good fierce shock troop axemen however with low defense and no armor, fairly expensive, HIRING ZONE: egyptian provinces with medium replenish]
- Desert spearmen [a basic spear-armed infantry for desert fighting, available in most provinces, fairly cheap, HIRING ZONE: all of north africa, egypt, arabia, syria and coast with medium to fast replenish]

ASIA MINOR AND ARMENIA AREA
- Turkish horse archers [light horse archers, HIRING ZONE: eastern Asia Minor area]
- Turkish infantry [spear-armed infantry, HIRING ZONE: eastern Asia minor area and down south in Middle east area]

MIDDLE EUROPE
- stipendarii [medium to heavy cavalry, comparable to level 3 cavalry, but with lower morale, quite expensive, spears and swords, ZOR: France, western half of HRE and northern, mostly the Christian parts of, Spain]
- stipendarii pedites [medium to heavy footmen, spears and swords, ZOR: France, western half of HRE and northern, mostly the Christian parts of, Spain]
- flemish spearmen [medium spearmen, large shields, very good anti-cav bonus, good morale, good defense, ZOR: Flanders]
- germanic spearmen [the standard spearmen but with higher hiring cost, HIRING ZONE: most of middle Europe divided in many pools with medium to fast replenish]
- Mercenary ballista crew - (HIRING ZONE: France, HRE, Lotharingia, rest of Italy and Greece)
- Mercenary mangonel crew - (HIRING ZONE: France, HRE, Lotharingia, rest of Italy and Greece)

EAST EUROPE
- Varangian mercenaries [HIRING ZONE: Kiev, Smolensk etc. with slow replenish, Constantinople with faster replenish]
- Steppe cavalry - [levy light cavalry, anti-cavalry bonus, HIRING ZONE: most of steppes area with medium replenish, faster replenish around Kiev and just west of it]

[oj121]

I like your ideas for the Welsh tech tree. Just a few things to maybe think about.

Dont produce celtic troops like in MTW as they were a bit more advanced than running round naked as if they hadnt progressed since Rome invaded 800 years before. Crude leather amour for the basic sword and axemen and maybe chainmail for the more advanced troops. The Welsh werent really technologically advanced enough to make large amounts of plate armour and the style of warfare that was implimented didnt suit heavy knights.

As for the city walls i think that they should be able to build castles that match those of the Normans. Although most of the castles left standing in Wales are of English origin, you only need to look at some of the castles built by Rhodri Mawr to see that Welsh Castle design was as good as their neighbours.

Last thing, what about an elite Welsh unit like the 'Welsh bandits' in MTW. In Welsh warfare most of the troops on the battlefield used the bow before a mad rush from all sides due to their ability to ambush, can this be represented somehow??? As for those elite troops, perhaps a mastery of the longbow, ability to hide anywhere, and very high melee skills using a sword? and also maybe an elite longbow units that can hide anywhere aswell.

[Rodion Romanovich]

As you can see we've only discussed the Byzantine tech tree in detail so far. We'll have a look at the Welsh, which is still only in it's first temporary state, later. I'm not sure I agree to the walls - the walls are city walls, not standalone forts. Therefore the walls are mostly intended to reflect how well fortified their actual cities were, perhaps sligthly affected by how advanced their standalone forts were.

The celtic units are just placeholders for now, and will probably changed to something more appropriate.

[King Ragnar]

Last thing, what about an elite Welsh unit like the 'Welsh bandits' in MTW. In Welsh warfare most of the troops on the battlefield used the bow before a mad rush from all sides due to their ability to ambush, can this be represented somehow??? As for those elite troops, perhaps a mastery of the longbow, ability to hide anywhere, and very high melee skills using a sword? and also maybe an elite longbow units that can hide anywhere aswell.

The welsh should definately rule the battle field when it comes to archery, all of there units should be able to hide in long grass.

[Ranika]

The Irish shouldn't have gallowglass, they didn't exist until the high middle ages. Nor should they have 'dartmen', which would just be about any Gaelic unit anyway. Near all Gaelic soldiers carried darts or a heavy throwing spear. Having 'dartmen' is redundant. The Scots also have no concept of a difference between 'highalnders' and 'lowlanders' yet; that came about from Norman influences later on. Really, Scots and Irish in the period you've selected would share most of the same units, except maybe a Pict unit of some kind. Niether would have very advanced archers, the Irish particularly. They used militia levies of archers, but rarely anything more, except mercenaries from Wales. Scots were fond of crossbows though, when they came about. The Welsh shouldn't share units with either of them, and the Scots and Irish should both have pretty much the same units, except as otherwise stated. Both would have pikemen, they used clubs often (probably some type of militia or light infantry), both were fond of spears, and of mid-length swords, as well as axes, throwing spears (heavier and larger than javelins), etc. The only appropriate 'highlander' would be a type of Pict warband probably, since the only remaining cultural Picts would be from the more isolated northern hilly regions toward the end of the period (and eventually even they'd be assimilated). Additionally, Scots and Irish also had 'wood' roads, which were more permanent highways, as well as the occassional 'raised' road (like the Kilburn road or the Oahgan nGall path), though mud paths may fit that role, but it sounds rather crude.

[Wikingus]

Regarding units: are you/we going for a completely realistic approach, or are some more "doubtful" units to be included also (for example, Jomsvikings, etc. - I didn't mean stupidity like Head Hurlers haha)?

[ScionTheWorm]

I guess you thought Jomsvikings were going to be included because of a former post of mine, but actually I think a realistic approach is best. Just my opinion.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Regarding units: are you/we going for a completely realistic approach, or are some more "doubtful" units to be included also (for example, Jomsvikings, etc. - I didn't mean stupidity like Head Hurlers haha)?

Doubtful units, if included, will be far up in the tech tree, hard to get and appear few in numbers on the battlefields. I don't know how unrealistic the joms vikings are, it was just a suggestion. If they're too unrealistic they'll probably be removed.

[Wikingus]

The Jomsvikings were a special "breed" of Vikings, even more secluded than berserkers, but unlike berserkers they were not common with most Viking armies, but rather lived and trained in present day Poland (at Wollin) in a special settlement where no women were allowed, as they did nothing but train in swordfighting all the time. Their existance can't be verified though, since the only sour1ce is the Saga of the Jomsvikings. They were essentially mercenaries hired by kings to fight for them.



I hope I am of some help, even though I know that single units are really not a priority right now.

:bow:

Some info on the equipment used by them:

As the Jomsviking were supposedly the greatest of all warriors and employed by kings and princes, they could probably afford the best armour. In the 10th century this would have been a mail corselet (called brynja or hringserkr, meaning ‘ring shirt’.) At this period in history the mail shirt would probably have been short-sleeved and waist length or reaching to just above the knees. The Jomsvikings would probably have worn this kind of mail shirt rather than the much longer versions as shown in the Bayeux Tapestry. Helmets would have been the typical versions of the day found in Scandinavia, varying from the usual conical helmets with nasal bar and the ones with eye guards. Some individuals might have spared the expense (or stolen from the battlefield) of having decorated eyebrow ridges inlaid with copper and silver. Jomsvikings would probably have used a combination of swords and axes (perhaps the larger broad-axes). Swords were revered weapons and most of the best ones came from Frankish lands. Javelins might also have been used as being able to throw strongly and accurately was seen as a good mark of a warrior.

[ScionTheWorm]

I counted 33 units for Saxony I think... there's 20 factions, and maximum 300 units, so a lot of the units have to be shared between factions, both skins and stats. Or skins I believe, correct me if I'm wrong. An average of 14-15 unique units per faction. Which will be shared?

SAXONY

Misc.
- catholic fanatics - javelinmen - town watch - peasants - urban militia - urban guard

Archers
- militia bowmen - bowmen - militia archers - archers - crossbowmen - pavise crossbowmen

Spear
- spear militia - fyrdmen - armored fyrdmen - feudal foot sergeants - halberdiers - militia swordscavalry - militia spearcavalry

Cavalry
- scout cavalry - spearcavalry - saxon sergeants - saxon knights - feudal sergeants - feudal knights - royal knights

Sword/axe
- militia swordsmen - saxon huscarl swordsmen - saxon huscarl axemen - feudal foot knights

Siege
- ballista - catapult - trebuchet

Btw are there anybody that finds concept art and descriptions to units on the team?

[King Ragnar]

Btw are there anybody that finds concept art and descriptions to units on the team?

I will try at this, by descriptions to units do you mean a description of what they will look like or the description that will appear in the game on the unit card?

[ScionTheWorm]

I will try at this, by descriptions to units do you mean a description of what they will look like or the description that will appear in the game on the unit card?

Both are needed, but I skin the Saxons right now, so I would like to know what they looked like. Images (paintings, wargame-figures, reconstructions etc.), descriptions, or make something reasonable up if there's no detailed descriptions on it. I think that's one for the units-thread though. I really would like something about Saxon spear militia, feudal foot sergeants, halberdiers, militia swordscavalry, militia spearcavalry, feudal foot knights etc.
Huscarls and Fyrdmen I found myself.

Just some collection of concept art would be great. Makes developing units much more efficient.

[King Ragnar]

Have you modeled and skinned the Huscarls yet? im dying to sse them ~:)

[Rodion Romanovich]

Both are needed, but I skin the Saxons right now, so I would like to know what they looked like. Images (paintings, wargame-figures, reconstructions etc.), descriptions, or make something reasonable up if there's no detailed descriptions on it. I think that's one for the units-thread though. I really would like something about Saxon spear militia, feudal foot sergeants, halberdiers, militia swordscavalry, militia spearcavalry, feudal foot knights etc.
Huscarls and Fyrdmen I found myself.

Just some collection of concept art would be great. Makes developing units much more efficient.

I recommend skipping the halberdiers for now. I'm not sure they'll be in the mod. See the first post in the units thread for units that are already completely decided will be in the mod. At this time there are mostly byzantine units but saxons and others will come.

[ScionTheWorm]

Have you modeled and skinned the Huscarls yet? im dying to sse them ~:)

No but that's next. A little tired of it now, will do it later today. Huscarls will be some complicated modelling but very simple skinning. See the units thread

[caesar44]

waow !!! what a fine job !!! ~:) ~:) ~:)

[ScionTheWorm]

LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix: can we please discuss the Saxon units?
- Which units will for sure be included?
- What units will be unique for Saxons?

[Rodion Romanovich]

Our researcher hasn't been here in a while. We were supposed to come to the saxons soon, but then I'll have to make these decisions myself.

UNIQUE UNITS FOR SAXONS THAT'LL BE IN THE MOD FOR SURE:
fyrdmen
armored fyrdmen
saxon huscarle axemen
saxon knights
saxon sergeants

STANDARD UNITS THAT BOTH SAXONS AND OTHERS WILL USE AND THAT'LL BE IN THE MOD FOR SURE:
javelinmen
peasants
town watch
urban militia
urban guard
bowmen
archers
crossbowmen
pavise crossbowmen
feudal foot sergeants
feudal foot knights
ballista
catapult
trebuchet
scout cavalry (fast cavalry with bad combat stats)
feudal sergeants
feudal knights
royal knights

So you've already skinned all saxon unique units except the saxon sergeants, a medium cavalry which will be weaker than the saxon knights. I don't know yet how much armor they should have but I guess they won't have that much.

[skeletor]

Legio, could we drop the Peasant unit... I think they should be represented by the lowest class of spearmen. Atleast for the Saxons, the fyrd besides beeing garison in forts, they allso took care of public law and order.

The only place i can find it reasonable with the peasant unit, is for rebels. But they wold probably chop down a tree, and make it pointy in the end if they were going to war.

From what i have read, i have never heard of peasant units, other then bad equiped spearmen, or in peasant riots.

-Skel-

[ScionTheWorm]

I agree, for instance "Iberian Tribesmen" (from RTR I think) was a great substitution for peasants. I think all factions should have a weak unit with very poor morale, but armed with spears. Don't like the name "peasants", but I have no better suggestion though.

Skeletor: didn't Olav Den Hellige fight the "peasant-army"?

[Rodion Romanovich]

Legio, could we drop the Peasant unit... I think they should be represented by the lowest class of spearmen. Atleast for the Saxons, the fyrd besides beeing garison in forts, they allso took care of public law and order.

The only place i can find it reasonable with the peasant unit, is for rebels. But they wold probably chop down a tree, and make it pointy in the end if they were going to war.

From what i have read, i have never heard of peasant units, other then bad equiped spearmen, or in peasant riots.

-Skel-

Agree. Funny, I was just thinking about doing that. The last few hours I've been editing the French, Viking and Saxon tech trees. Peasants have been removed there and for Byzantines. The tech trees in blue above have been fixed but not yet looked at by our researcher. The tech trees in red (only one so far) is complete now. Ignore the list of units I posted above, use the first post in this thread for reference instead, I'll keep it updated.

[skeletor]

True, the army Olav fought were called "bondehæren" or "the peasant army". But by this, they didn't mean Olav's royal army figthing a bunch of men with heyforks. This was a battle betwen the king who wanted a kingdom, and chieftains who fougt for the old system with independent "Gårder" (Can't find a good english word for it, but it's kind of a huge farm with fields, woods, hunting-grounds aso). So the "bondehær" was a coalition of chieftains fielding their hird, and other unit's avalable (as they had allways been doing when going to war.)

-Skel-

[Jarlabanke]

I think there may have been a quite large amount of peasants in the army Olav faced, it is after said to be a peasant army, which is not an all that common thing in it self, and it's also said to have been quite big, 10000+ men, most likely an exaggeration but still. Seeing how Olav had been quite hardgoing when it came to introducing christianity, it's reasonable to think that the peasants would have been just as mad as the high ranking men whose power/lives Olav was after. As for pitchforks I would believe that most of the farms had enough weapons of some kind, so that they wouldn't haev to resort to using framing tools.

[skeletor]

- Small synagogue (+10 happiness, requires town), Synagogue (+20 happiness, +1 morale, +5% law, requires large town), Large synagogue (+40 happiness, +2 morale, +10% law, requires city)
- MORE HAPPINESS BUILDINGS NEEDED!


Suggestion for Khazar happynes building, we could add the Khazar supreme court.

"In the capital city, the Khazars established a supreme court composed of 7 members, and every major religion (Christianity, Islam, Judaism, and Savic paganism) eas represented on this judicial panel. the Kazars thus sponsed religous tolerance in a time when surrounding countries presecuted those who refused to follow the faith of the rulers."

It might be called "Independent court" or something like that.

-Skel-

[ScionTheWorm]

wow didn't know the Khazars or anybody would be that tolerant in that timeperiod..

[Rodion Romanovich]

Ok, that sounds like a good idea skeletor! I'll have a thorough look at all tech trees today and add improvements everywhere I can and see if any tech trees are so finished that the skinners can use them. I'll add the court when I do that.

[Jarlabanke]

Were Trebuchets around this early?

[skeletor]

Edit... I stumblrd across this:


It is believed that the first trebuchets were used in China as early as in the 7th century. From there this technology spread westwards and reached the Arab countries through Persia and Byzantium. The engines of war were in use all over the Mediterranean by the 9th century and the knowledge of these new and highly efficient weapons disseminated rapidly through the rest of Europe.

So i guass it's not way off having them in.

-Skel-

[Rodion Romanovich]

New siege weapons suggestions:
- Ballista - bolt-thrower. Available to all quite early
- Mangonel - stone thrower. Harder to get. Requires level 3 city.

Only the Byzantines, Khazars and the muslim factions should really be able to use flaming missiles for their archers and artillery, I think. I also think the non-flaming mangonel should be increased in power (but reduced in ammo), whereas the flaming one should be reduced in power. I think we could add a Heavy mangonel if we want more levels of stone throwers. However I think that's unnecessary.

When I searched for onager in Wikipedia I didn't quite get what I wanted:

"The Onager (Equus hemionus) is a large mammal belonging to the horse family and native to the deserts of Syria, Iran, India, and Tibet. It is sometimes known as the Half Ass or the Asiatic Ass [etc.]"

[skeletor]

LoL, com'on guy's, let them have a taste of our good'ld Asiatic Ass throwers...
:duel:

[ScionTheWorm]

:laugh:

Wonder how we will implement the crossbows.. the stone thrower sounds kickass

[Rodion Romanovich]

"native to the deserts of Syria, Iran, India, and Tibet. It is sometimes known as the Half Ass or the Asiatic Ass [etc.]"

I think it should have a combat bonus in deserts and zone of recruit "Syria, Iran, India and Tibet"... ~D

[ScionTheWorm]

"Known for their fierce and deadly weapon of crap, armies of the half-asses were feared by great generals and kings troughout the whole known world of medievel times"

[Rodion Romanovich]

Talk about ass-kicking :)

[ScionTheWorm]

Have some questions 'bout the tech-tree...

1)
shared units:

crossbowmen
pavise crossbowmen
royal knights

when did these arrive? just wondering since our ending date is 1099

2)
France
HRE
Lotharingia

these factions will have the same units? where did Lotharingia lie?

3)
Is there any map of where the factions are located around the starting date (which faction have which provinces etc.). Just curiosity

[The Stranger]

:laugh:

Wonder how we will implement the crossbows.. the stone thrower sounds kickass
well we could use the Age of Chivalry's models for crossbows.

[ScionTheWorm]

I found this on crossbows. :book:

*341 BCE --- Earliest reliable record of the use of the crossbow at the battle of Ma-ling in China.
*228 BCE --- Earliest factual evidence in the form of a bronze lock mechanism from the tomb of Yu Wang.
*1 st. cent. CE --- Heron records a form of hand balllista.
*4 th.-7 th. cents. CE --- Roman evidence from carvings and remains
*385 CE --- F. Vegetius Renatus in De Re Militari refers to crossbows
*947 CE --- Attack on Senlis driven off by crossbowmen.
*985 CE --- Crossbowmen in Lothair's expedition against Verdun.
*986 CE --- 'Lock bows' used in the battle of Hjorungsvag.
*ca. 1000 CE --- The crossbow comes into wide use.
*11 th. century CE --- Tiller is grooved to hold bolt (Wilkinson-Latham, p. 170)
*1066 CE --- Crossbows reintroduced into England by the Normans.
*1096 CE --- Anna Comnena records the use of crossbows in that year by the Normans.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Have some questions 'bout the tech-tree...

1)
shared units:

crossbowmen
pavise crossbowmen
royal knights

when did these arrive? just wondering since our ending date is 1099


First crossbows arrived around 800 AD in France I think. The HRE introduced them a lot later. Genua is located in Lotharingia and therefore they'd also, if they hadn't stopped existing before 900 AD or so, have had easy access to good crossbows early.



2)
France
HRE
Lotharingia

these factions will have the same units? where did Lotharingia lie?


They'll have pretty similar tech trees. After all, 843 AD was when they were split up, from being the same empire before. But there will perhaps be some more unique units, I haven't found much yet.

Lotharingia is northern Italy as well as some regions between Germany and France - Friesia and Lorraine etc. The Kingdom of Lotharingia lost the northern provinces pretty quickly though.



3)
Is there any map of where the factions are located around the starting date (which faction have which provinces etc.). Just curiosity


Not yet, but you can ask me about those you don't know. I could make a map of it as soon as I get info on what the primary faction colors of all factions will be, and when I know which the provinces will be. Actually this isn't the first time I've needed those colors and the provinces, so I'll try to speed up the process of fixing those things.

[ScionTheWorm]

Trying to find out who should have knights and who should not...
Ok found this on knights :book: :book:

"In an effort to stem the tide of Viking raids, King Charles of France, gave land to a group of them in 911. This land was called Normandy, and a man named Rollo, became their first duke. While other Vikings preferred to fight on foot, these Norman's followed the fashion of the French and became formidable horsemen. When King Edward the Confessor of England died in 1066, his cousin, Duke William of Normandy, claimed he had been promised the throne. He invaded England with an army and defeated the new King, Harold, in battle near Hastings and brought knights, castles, and the feudal system to England. At this time the English still fought on foot and it was the horseman's advantage that helped William the Conqueror win England for himself. Signals on the battlefield were announced by horn."

(source: http://www.getmedievalonline.com/knights.html)

France has knights, but Normandy is not a faction yet at startdate? seems like it's 911 here

He invaded England with an army and defeated the new King, Harold, in battle near Hastings and brought knights, castles, and the feudal system to England.

I guess this means factions in England won't have knights before Normandy or someone else invade them?

[ScionTheWorm]

About the halberd:
Seems to me that was half a milennium later these were frequently used.

"A halberd is a two-handed pole weapon that came to prominent use during the 14th and 15th centuries."
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halberd)

Didn't even have it before late era in MTW? (not that it's a totally historical accurate game but..)

[Rodion Romanovich]

Actually, knights is just a unit name for really good cavalry. Knight is just a nobleman, and earlier they're called nobles, later they're called knights. The unit royal knights was IMO just going to be a unit of elite cavalry. Maybe it'll be removed, I don't know...

Re the Normans not existing before 911, that's correct, but we didn't want to drop the normans so we kept them anyway, although they'll hopefully be kept really weak before 911 AD.

[Rodion Romanovich]

About the halberd:
Seems to me that was half a milennium later these were frequently used.

"A halberd is a two-handed pole weapon that came to prominent use during the 14th and 15th centuries."
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halberd)

Didn't even have it before late era in MTW? (not that it's a totally historical accurate game but..)

Yes, I said I'd PROBABLY remove it for all factions. On second thoughts, I'll CERTAINLY remove it for all factions now :embarassed:

[ScionTheWorm]

Actually, knights is just a unit name for really good cavalry. Knight is just a nobleman, and earlier they're called nobles, later they're called knights. The unit royal knights was IMO just going to be a unit of elite cavalry. Maybe it'll be removed, I don't know...

I thought so, not being the knights we think of from the crusades. IMHO another name would fit better though, since it seems to me that Royal Knights will be another thing than early elite knights.

At the same time the feudal system wasn't introduced to england before 1066 so feudal sergeants and feudal knights should maybe be rethought for some factions? As I've understood saxony was not a united kingdom, so this may be somewhat complicated...? :lost:



Re the Normans not existing before 911, that's correct, but we didn't want to drop the normans so we kept them anyway, although they'll hopefully be kept really weak before 911 AD.
I agree. Should have some strong cavalry though after a while...

[Jarlabanke]

http://www.euratlas.com/time1.htm

Maps

As far as I know Heavy cavalary wasn't employed by the english before the conquest.

[Rodion Romanovich]

I thought so, not being the knights we think of from the crusades. IMHO another name would fit better though, since it seems to me that Royal Knights will be another thing than early elite knights.

At the same time the feudal system wasn't introduced to england before 1066 so feudal sergeants and feudal knights should maybe be rethought for some factions? As I've understood saxony was not a united kingdom, so this may be somewhat complicated...? :lost:


The level 4 units will hardly ever appear on the battlefields, and especially not for factions with starting positions such as those of the saxons, with so small cities etc. The mod will almost reach 1050 before they can appear, so I think it's accurate.

The unit called saxon knights is a medium cavalry unit of slightly lower quality and is supposed to reflect the best cavalry the saxons had before the norman conquest. The unit called saxon sergeant is a kind of cavalry to reflect the more common medium to low quality cavalry (no army ever has elite only, these are "the rest") the saxons had before the norman conquest.

[ScionTheWorm]

The level 4 units will hardly ever appear on the battlefields, and especially not for factions with starting positions such as those of the saxons, with so small cities etc. The mod will almost reach 1050 before they can appear, so I think it's accurate.

The unit called saxon knights is a medium cavalry unit of slightly lower quality and is supposed to reflect the best cavalry the saxons had before the norman conquest. The unit called saxon sergeant is a kind of cavalry to reflect the more common medium to low quality cavalry (no army ever has elite only, these are "the rest") the saxons had before the norman conquest.

great! thought we could agree on all those "shared units" as I call them, which we will include and for what factions. researching is fun

[ScionTheWorm]

1000: 7 million people live in France, 7 million in Iberia, 5 million in Italy, 4 million in Germany, 2 million in Britain
(http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/holy.html)

Will this increase in population be reflected in new population limits and "upgrade city"-thing?

[ScionTheWorm]

I think this might be finded helpful when completing the tech-tree (I haven't got time to read it now). The stuff is really focused on military:


Scots Irish (55 BC - 846 AD) (http://www.fanaticus.org/DBA/armies/dba61.html)

Norse Irish Army (846-1260 AD) (http://www.fanaticus.org/DBA/armies/dba112td.html)
(Comment: should we base them on pre-viking invasion military style or post?)

The Magyars - (650-997 AD) (http://www.fanaticus.org/DBA/armies/dba107.html)


Feudal Spanish - (711-1350 AD) (http://www.fanaticus.org/DBA/armies/dba104.html)

[ScionTheWorm]

Viking migration could be pressumed by rebelstates in or in small groups from Norway.
This is my suggestion of the unique Irish units list:

Light cavalry (very light armoured)
Kerns
Bonnachts
Ostmen (viking settlers) (heavy infantry)
Irish nobles armed with sword and javelins
Irish nobles armed with axe and javelins

Mercenary units: Gael Gaedhil (young Celtic/Norse warriors)

[Ranika]

Kerns didn't exist yet as soldiers. They were just Irish peasant levies in the period, and not really that special (Kern meaning 'soldier' doesn't appear until the 11th century); Kerns in this period are just town militias and impromptu levies called up when a town was attacked. Bonnachts are 'billet men', and is a later word; more over, Bonnacht is a generic term for any professional soldier, not one specific type. Professional swordsmen, spearmen, and axemen are all bonnachta. They'd probably be Gaenaght or Daernaght in this period (Spearmen); spearmen who carry large heavy throwing spears, or a type of axemen with spears and a large heavy shield. In this period, they'd be pre-Viking invasion Irish, with only slight influences from the viking, and steadily more onto the end of the period (though most of the influences end up 'Gaelicized'). Also, Ostmen weren't trained, they were hired as mercenaries. Gaelic heavy infantry was generally nobility in chain or scale shirts, with iron helmets (and often wearing a crucifix on them, as the Gaelic 'nobility' was tied closely to the Irish Church), and using a large round shield of Gaelic make (not the thinner viking round shields, but the thicker targa style).

[ScionTheWorm]

Thanks, that to consideration I suggest:

Light cavalry
(Gaenaght?) Men throwing large javelins
(Daernaght?) Axemen
Irish nobles armed with sword (and javelins?)
Irish nobles armed with axe (and javelins?)

Mercenaries: Ostmen, Gael Gaedhil

As I'm sure you understand I'm trying to get a discussion here.

[Ranika]

Gaenaght and Daernaght are both spearmen (Gaenaght are eastern and Munster spearmen, Daernaght were spearmen from Connaght). Axemen would be Traghnaght or Trainaght, or any mileu of other variants. The plurals for this period would involve an 'a' on the end (so, multiple Traghnaght is Traghnaghta). Both spear and axe men would use targes, and both would have darts or throwing spears, and both would have padded coats or leather (padded coats were more popular in Ireland, leather more in Scotland), with a leather cap.

On Irish and Scottish 'nobility'; Gaels don't really have 'nobles' perse, in this period, they had elected officials from an aristocracy; the aristocracy are 'arras'. While the arras do control a kind of 'noble house', they're generally just wealthy traders or skilled militarists, which sustain them financially. Anyone rich enough could become an arras. I'd drop one of the 'noble' units, probably have Gaelic Arras, with sword, javelins, chain, helmet, full length cloak, and targe, for both the Scots and Irish; they would make an appropriate 'generals' unit. They have retainers called Ridire by the Saxons, under them. Ridire would be both Scottish/Irish heavy infantry or cavalry. A sword, axe, cudgel/mace/hammer, or spear is fine for them (probably say axe or cudgel/mace/hammer, to differentiate from the Arras), with javelins, targe, and at the least, leather scale armor or padded armor, at most, plated scale {leather scale with iron or bronze on it} or heavy iron ring chainmaille (that is, wide, heavy rings, instead of the more effective, smaller rings). The Ridire would also have a shoulder cloak (at least, a full length cloak though is not impossible), and iron helmet (round, conical, no nose guard though).

Light cavalry were 'Guirran'. They carried javelins, with a spear (fought with overhand), a cudgel, or an axe.

All would have essentially the same clothing and general appearance. A knee-length shirt (sleeve length can vary), boots over the ankle, a shoulder cloak (if they don't have a different cloak already), a mustache or clean-shaved, maybe the occassional bearded unit (more popular among the Gaels in Scotland, who started imitating the Pict's beards). Really, Gaels don't look like other armies from the region at all. They don't wear trousers, they wear awkward cloaks, some still paint themselves (in western Ireland particularly, and a few isolated eastern Irish tribes). They're an entirely seperate culture in pretty much every way from those around them. Any generic units used with them would look awkward, if you were going for an authentic appearance, but I'm aware of time constraints and other limitations that likely go into what you can do (such as model limits). However, I do recommend sharing units between Scots and Irish where you can, at least, so you can use less generic units for them, and more actual Gaelic units. I know everyone says 'Well, X culture is unique in appearance from Y culture because of 800 minor things'. However, Gaels are hugely different in appearance, and army composition. They still used a lot of skirmishers (almost all soldiers carried javelins, darts, or heavy throwing spears), they didn't use many archers (usually Welsh mercenaries, or levied hunters), their militias (while I do say they aren't particularly special) were fairly well trained (had to be, maruading vikings in this period demanded it), and they used a lot of weapons and tactics others didn't in the region. They were isolated, and hadn't homogenized as much as others, who, through Roman and then Germanic influences, had developed very similar armies and clothing and so on, and Christianity, which generally absorbed cultures and helped homogenize them, was instead absorbed by the Gaels (hence the creation an insular, Celtic rite of the church), which also slowed any changes in their culture. While they'd begun to modernize at this time, it was at their own pace and in their own string of development, and they didn't use much of other cultures anyway, aside from weapons and armor. On a related note, the Ostmen would be dressed the same way (bare-legged, longshirt, boots), as Norse-Irish were far more heavily Gaelicized than Gaelic-Irish were Nordicized. Gaels main adoptions from the Norse was a reintroduction of widespread use of chain armor, a few types of axes, and a few types of swords. Norse-Irish converted to the Celtic rite of Christianity (generally), began to dress like Gaels, spoke a modified, Norse-influenced version of Irish, began to wear their hair like Gaels (long and in many tight braids, almost looking like dreadlocks from a distance), fought in a Gaelic version of the shield wall (axe/swordsmen, backed by longspearmen, backed by pikemen, flanked by skirmishers), etc.

[Bar Kochba]

what sort of units will khazar have

[skeletor]

@ Ranika

Thnx mate ~:cheers:

That's some very good detailed descriptions, really apriciate it.
- Prints, and reads on the bus home. -
- Edit, couldn't wait -

The Irish will be rebels in the game, and it wold be really neat having the Irish rebels with the javelins, and unique look as you described. Allso maybe have them as merc's there. Do you think the Scots allso could have some of these unit's as basic's (in that case, witch) to make dem diffrent from the welsh/saxons, or wold that be totally wrong?


what sort of units will khazar have

We haven't really finished the unit list for the khazars, but beside the basic unit's, they will get alot of good cav and cavarcers. Allso good foot archers i guess.
(See the techtree thread)

If you have alot of knowledge about their army, feel free to post any information you have.. Pic's too..

- I will make sure that they look uniqe, and spectakular ~:cool:

-Skel-

[Rodion Romanovich]

what sort of units will khazar have

Just like skeletor said. They also had good artillery according to the sources.

@ALL MOD TEAM MEMBERS: I've updated the Irish tree now. I'm not sure if everything is correct in the current tree but I've tried to incorporate the suggestions and facts mentioned in the discussion here as good as I could. Feel free to come with suggestions for improvements.

I created a new Scottish tree based on the Irish one, but I'm not sure that's correct. If the Irish is ok, can we proceed and discuss the Scottish tree now? Then I'd like to discuss the Welsh one. Can anyone find good sources for the Welsh? They should probably have more units with a combination of bows and meleé weapons.

BTW what does "targe" mean? I just copy-pasted it into the Irish tech tree from the descriptions above.

[King Ragnar]

About Welsh, they should be great ambushers and most of ther units should have a combination of melee bows as the most likely tactics would be to hit with arrows then charge in. I will start to look for information etc for the welsh.

[skeletor]

Great, could you allso see iif you could find some pic's of early longbows. ~:cheers:

[King Ragnar]

Here is a pic of a longbow its the earliest i could get, to the person who wants to make the longbowmen, the bow should be the same length as the man (a normal longbow was about 5/6ft).
https://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a21/KingRagnar/Welsh20Longbow20Archers.jpg

[Ranika]

@ Ranika

Thnx mate ~:cheers:

That's some very good detailed descriptions, really apriciate it.
- Prints, and reads on the bus home. -
- Edit, couldn't wait -

The Irish will be rebels in the game, and it wold be really neat having the Irish rebels with the javelins, and unique look as you described. Allso maybe have them as merc's there. Do you think the Scots allso could have some of these unit's as basic's (in that case, witch) to make dem diffrent from the welsh/saxons, or wold that be totally wrong?
-Skel-

In the period you've selected, the Scots conquer most of Scotland (not all). Actually, all they historically took in this period would be rebel. Comparatively, the Irish experienced a brief moment as a being a major power in northern Europe (as all of Ireland was united except for Leinster, and Ireland had a huge deal of resources and weight to pull around in the islands, and people were afraid of them after the victory at Clontarf); while the Scots are a more appropriate faction in later periods, in the late dark ages the Irish were a substantially more important group. The Scots conquered most of Scotland, and fought off the Angles, then got the shit kicked out of them by a lot of vikings, which they then barely managed to drive off. The Irish were one of the two main sides of Clontarf, and broke viking power in Ireland. If it weren't for Norman invasion in the 1100s, Ireland could've managed complete unity (as it was heading that direction, like England had). That's not speculation, it's simply what was happening at the time, and the examples before were identical. Comparatively, Scotland had its time as being a bunch of warring tribes, which had a defacto king who could exercise some control over them, but the Scots were having large clan wars, dealing with viking raiders, Pict rebellions, etc. They were heavily disunified by comparison. It wasn't until Norman England forced them to unify further did they really...unify. The southern Scots, though, became 'lowlanders', which imitated Normans to great extent (even clothing and such), and created the rift between 'highlanders' and 'lowlanders'; even then, Scotland wasn't really totally unified. The highlanders tended to ignore the lowlanders, because they didn't like the Norman feudal system (since it had heriditary instead of elected nobility, they saw it as tyranny). ...Just critiquing your selection.

Anyway, unit wise, a Scottish and Irish faction would look pretty much identical in this time period. They'd share all these units. I do recommend 2-3 Pict regional units, and they'd look completely different. Trousers, barechest/long sleeve shirt, belt, barefoot/tall boots, round shields, favored clubs and axes. I'd say, use like, Pict spearmen w/ javelins, bowmen, and maybe axemen; it'd give a fair cross section of Pictish soldiers, which were employed by the Scots. Remember, no highlanders (Scots didn't have that rift yet that made Scots in the highlands any different), maybe Regyddites/Stathclyders. Once again, I don't think Scots should look remotely like Saxons or Welsh. They were Gaels. Gaels had been isolated, they did not change like everyone else. They were comparatively unique to everyone around them, except for eachother.

[Rodion Romanovich]

The Irish will be rebels in the game

What? They're a playable faction... ~:confused: ~:confused:

[Rodion Romanovich]

@Ranika: Do you know which pict units the scots employed most? Any suggestions on which units we should have? Also, shouldn't the Scots have better missile troops than the Irish? I've listed some Irish spear units with zone of recruit, what are the Scottish replacements/equivalents to them? Also, weren't the picts fond of crossbows and employed them early? Did the scots take over the crossbow when the Kingdom of Alba united scots and picts, or did they forget the crossbow for a few centuries before reintroducing it? Finally, the mod ends in 1099 AD, so the level 4 units can be troops that existed near the end of the period. Or were the highlanders introduced so much later than 1099 AD that they should be removed alltogether (remember that the level 4 units won't appear much at all until the end of the game)?

[skeletor]

What? They're a playable faction... ~:confused: ~:confused:

lol, i've completely missed them.. Probably had the NTW list in my head.. Thnx for enlightening me :hide:

Anyway, great stuff Ranika, Scion will make the longbow's come alive..

Wold the Irish harp work for the Irish, or should we find a more ancient symbol for them?


-Skel-

[Ranika]

The crossbow (as the medieval weapon) was not used by the Picts. They did use a copy of the arcuballista, but it was poor quality, and the Scots didn't use it, but Pictish levies did. Highlanders don't emerge until about 1160 as a distinct group apart from lowlanders.

I'd recommend, then, only sharing units between the Irish and Scots; not allowing them to have other 'shared' units. They simply would look improper in a Gaelic army. If you're going to do the two factions, may as well do them right; you don't need use everything listed, but, these are my suggestions. A general Gaelic army would be composed of (this'll be followed with appropriate uniques for Scots and Irish), largely;

Gaelic units (Gaels organize in multiples of 5, along the line of 25-50-100-150-200; keep in mind for choosing numbers of men in a unit);
Kernbannal ('Levy Troop'; unarmored club or spear militia with darts, fight as skirmishers) -
Description - The hierarchy of Gaelic societies is a bit unusual; it lacks feudal nobles and the subsequent varying ranks of nobles and peasants. However, Kerns tend to fall near the bottom. Without much money or inherent fighting ability, they cannot afford good equipment, nor are they likely to be sponsored by an arras (aristocrat). However, that matters little. Most of the time, a kern is just a man called up to form a militia in times of strife, and fight with whatever is on hand; usually hunting spears or solid clubs, accompanied by light, small javelins, often called darts.

Soikernbannal ('Levy Archer Troop'; only Gaelic archers they would have, levy archers with knives, hooded cloaks, hide in tall grass, but not really much good; Scots would have some better Regyddite archers probably, will explain below) -
Description - Gaels rarely employ professional archers as soldiers, except for mercenaries. They, personally, see little value in archers. However, when they do employ their own, they tend to be simple levies of hunters, who, while proficient with their bows, are not soldiers, and easily chased off of a battlefield if engaged not properly defended, or if engaged in a melee.

Sleanaghta (Spearmen with heavy throwing spears, large round shield, leather helmet, and padded coat (Irish)/leather vest/coat (Scots)) -
Description - The slea or gae (spear) is the preferred weapon of most Gaelic soldiers. Accompanied with heavy throwing spears and a solid Gaelic targe, these spearmen form the backbone of any Gaelic army. They are professional soldiers, who either bought their equipment, or were sponsored by a wealthier member of society. They are intended to hold positions, and are often placed around missile troops to defend them from cavalry and any other threats that might occur.

Tuanaghta (Axemen with heavy throwing spears, large round shield, leather helmet, and padded coat (Irish)/leather coat (Scots)) -
Description - The tua (axe) is one of the oldest and most favored weapons of the Gaels. The Gaelic axe has a particularly weighty head, meant to crush helmets and smash shields. With it, like most Gaels carry, are carried two heavy throwing spears, thrown into an enemy position before a charge. The Gaelic axemen act as a kind of bridge between medium and heavy infantry.

Claiomhnaghta (Mid-length swordsmen with javelins, large round shield, leather helmet, padded coat (Irish), leather coat (Scots)) -
Description - The claiomh, climh, or clom (sword) is an expensive weapon, but generally well made. Faster than an axe, and generally more wieldy than a spear, it allows the soldier using it to manuever into position for thrusts and slashes. The typical Gaelic sword is shorter than a longsword, but not a shortsword. It generally has a leaf-shaped blade, meant to offer wide, sheering cuts, and devestating thrusts that open wide, gaping wounds. It is accompanied with a heavy Gaelic targe, and three light throwing spears; these spears are favored for swordsmen, so to enhance the mobility of these soldiers, but keep them able to fight in the traditional Gaelic manner.

Gaemornaghta (Spearmen with long, two-handed spears (not actually pikes though), maybe use phalanx, leather helmet, padded coat (Irish), leather coat (Scots)) -
Description - The Gaemor or Gaemhor (great spear) is a lengthy spear generally used in two hands. It is used in a tight formation as an anti-cavalry and anti-infantry measure; it is difficult to manuever past a wall of spear heads. While in use for centuries, this type of soldier grew increasingly more common among the Gaels as the dark ages and middle ages drove on; a response to the growing importance of cavalrymen.

Guirran (Horsemen with javelins, and an axe/spear in melee, large round shield, leather helmet, padded coat (Irish), leather coat (Scots)) -
Description - Gaelic light cavalry sticks to the common methods of Gaelic combat. They are skirmishers by default, meant to ride toward an opponent, throw javelins, and retreat, ad infinitum. Training and experience has made them fairly good at this, and the Guirran (horsemen), later called hobblers or hobilars, became a staple of English and French armies as well.

Amguirran Ridire (Gaelic heavy cavalry with axes/swords, and lance, large-ring chain armor/scale armor, long leines, large round shield, iron conical helmet, should be a bit late period) -
Description - Champions in Gaelic culture are afforded some of the best weapons and equipment. The Ridire are the Gaelic equivalent of 'knights'; they have a patron who provides them with equipment, training, and gifts for performing well. On horseback, they form the Amguirran (heavy horsemen); Gaels don't tend to use much heavy cavalry, but when they do, they form a powerful reserve on the field for mowing down enemy infantry.

Clommhornaghta (Longswordsmen with javelins, large round shield, iron helmet, padded coat (Irish), leather coat (Scots), or scale armor) -
Description - The claiomh, climh, or clom (sword) is an expensive weapon, but generally well made. The longsword is a rare weapon among Gaels outside of aristocracy, but wars with vikings helped to popularize it. Wealthier soldiers may often binge and purchase a longsword, from viking traders, or commission one from a smith locally. Such warriors would be small in number, but relatively cheap semi-heavy infantry, since they'd provide most, if not all, of their own equipment.

Ridire (Gaelic heavy infantry with axes, large-ring chain armor/scale armor, long leines, large round shield, iron conical helmet, throwing spears) -
Description - Champions in Gaelic culture are afforded some of the best weapons and equipment. The Ridire are the Gaelic equivalent of 'knights'; they have a patron who provides them with equipment, training, and gifts for performing well. On foot, they form heavy infantry soldiers, with throwing spears, like most other Gaelic infantry, to disrupt an enemy line before charging. When defending, they use a tight formation, akin to a Norse shieldwall, to absorb charges.

Arras (Gaelic general unit, foot nobles with longswords, 'robes', long chain armor, large round shield, iron conical helmet, javelins) -
Description - Gaelic 'nobility' are drawn from numerous places; everyone from the lowest chief to the high king are considered Arras, as well as indepedent, wealthy merchants and traders. They can afford the best training, the best equipment, and the best soldiers to support them. Like other Gaels, they carry javelins to throw at their enemies before charging, and form a tight shieldwall-like formation to absorb an attack. They use long slashing and thrusting swords, often of Norse design, though Gaels also have their own styles of longsword. The heavy Gaelic targe, good quality chain armor, and a well-made iron helmet, provide them great protection against their enemies.

Scottish uniques;
Criosionaghta (Crossbowmen, late period unit, leather armor, an iron helmet, cudgel or mace in melee) -
Description - The crossbow changed the face of warfare in the kingdom of Alba. Scots took well to it, using it combat eachothers' tribes, as the bolt could pierce even the best chain armor. Arcuballistas had been used by pre-Gaelic Picts, but had never found much favor among Scots. They used the crossbow against both eachother and invaders; progessively more against invaders as they grew more stable and unified.

Picts (wear long-sleeve shirt, a heavy coat, trousers, boots, tattooed skin, bearded; all Picts hide in tall grass): -
Pictish Taghnaghta (Pict axemen, with a small round shield) -
Description - The Picts were subverted and eventually absorbed by the Scots. However, they were sometimes used by Scots as shock troops and skirmishers. Pictish axemen use a small round shield, and a small hand axe; they're not the most skilled, but cheap and plentiful shock troops.

Pictish Gaenaghta (Pict spearmen with javelins and a small round shield, fight as skirmishers) -
Description - The Picts were subverted and eventually absorbed by the Scots. However, they were sometimes used by Scots as shock troops and skirmishers. Pictish skirmishers and spearmen were used as harassers and harriers, to weaken and slow down enemy forces. Similar troops made up the majority of Pictish rebels the Scots would eventually have to quell.

Pictish Fiagai (Pict huntsmen with a light crossbow {imitated arcuballista}) -
Description - The Picts were subverted and eventually absorbed by the Scots. However, they were sometimes used by Scots as shock troops and skirmishers. Pictish huntsmen were useful as missile troops and ambushers. Picts had used the arcuballista for centuries, after it was introduced by wars and trade with Romans.

Pictish Argull (Pict nobles with a sword, shield, robe, and leather armor, raise allied morale) -
Description - The Picts were subverted and eventually absorbed by the Scots. However, they were sometimes used by Scots as shock troops and skirmishers. Pictish nobles fought against the Scots, and beside them; they were fairly well equipped and brave.

Strathclyders/Regyddites (from southwest Scotland; they'd look like Gaels in this period):
Gaelo-British Ridire (Look like Ridire, but with a two-handed axe instead of axes/shields, shield strapped to back) -
Description - The Strathclyders and Regyddites were Britons, heavily influenced by Gaelic culture. Their best soldiers often use a heavy axe, in one or two-hands. This axe is often actually little more than a modified wood axe, though they'd later begin using bearded heads and similar other types of axes.

Regyddite Bognaghta ('Bowmen', Fair quality archers with knife in melee, in heavy cloaks; 'Bog' is a Norse word for bow that was adopted slightly later than your start period) -
Description - The Regyddites add substantial ranged power to the Scots compared to normal Gaelic archers. Regyddites have skilled archers, who wear heavy defensive cloaks, and carry long knives in melee. They can fire a fair distance with decent accuracy, and are accustomed to combat, so less likely to break.

Irish uniques;
Rastriagha (Irish berserkers, use an axe, cudgel, or hammer, round shield, probably wearing a crucifix (they were fanatics of different saint cults, and also generally trained soldiers), no armor) -
Description - The Irish have their own berserker tradition, stemming from pagan times, but adapted well into the Christian era. The Irish are generally very fervent people; the most fervent soldiers tend to belong to saint cults, such as the cult of St. Finbar. Their devotion to their people and the Church keeps them constantly training. Many even join monastaries and are actually monks or priests. In battle, they enter a kind of religious-inspired frenzy, and kill anyone they see as a threat to Ireland or Christianity.

Inishnaghta (Irish islanders from the satellite islands of Ireland, with heavy cloaks, no armor, large round shield, bipenne axe (two blades), heavy throwing spears, leather helmet, painted skin) -
Description - The islanders of Ireland live among the many sattelite islands. They fight with a version of the Gaelic axe, with two blades, and carry heavy throwing spears. They still paint their skin, and are some of the bravest soldiers in Ireland, though they wear no armor, but a helmet, and instead use a heavy cloak as defense.

Maiobhanaghta (Irish slingers with knives and a small round shield, padded armor, leather helmet, better than their archers, and slings are substantially longer range than a normal bow) -
Description - The sling is still a popular weapon among the Irish. It is far longer range than a regular bow, and a sling bullet of clay or stone is surprisingly deadly. Slingers in use by the Gaelic Irish often are used to harass an enemy from great distance. Further, they are professional soldiers, not levies like Gaelic archers.

Caeisornaghta (Irish macemen, with a round-headed mace {not flanged, like medieval period mace}, round shield, throwing spears, leather helmet, padded armor) -
Description - The mace is an old, simple weapon. While popularized widely in Europe by the advent of plate armor, Gaels, the Irish particularly, have used the mace for century, with a smooth spherical or egg-shaped head. They are another arm of Irish infantry, and fight like axe or spearmen, with heavy spears thrown before a charge. The mace is essentially a glorified club, but it is very effective against most types of armor and any shield.

Dinuadda-Claiomhnaghta (Irish longswordsmen; using longsword in two-hands though (not a greatsword), padded armor, iron helmet, available in southern Ireland) -
Description - Southern Irish longswords sometimes accomodated longer grips, meant to be used in two hands. Longswords were somewhat rare in Ireland to begin with, and these particular weapons rarely proliferated far, but they were a favored weapon of numerous champions and wealthier soldiers, as they could be used in one or two hands. In two hands, they would be able to deal more damage.

Carpata - Gaelic chariot; chariot models don't count (they are counted with siege engines), but it'd probably need a new model for the driver. Would probably look similar to a British Wetwang chariot in shape, but less decoration than you see on reconstructions; riders would be Sleanaghta or similar infantry, maybe even just use them, in which case no new model would be needed at all; would raise allied morale
Description - The Gaels still used chariots in this period. They were in rapid decline in use, and had rarely been much of a weapon for war outside of a few regions, where the ground was smooth and flat enough to make good use of them, but they were still a popularized possession, and it was rare for aristocrats to not own at least one chariot for formal events. In war, they were used to drop nobles off into the middle of the fight (which can't be replicated in game), and as a missile platform from which the riders would hurl javelins, and also to crush light infantry by riding over them with the chariot's substantial weight.

Mercenaries in Scotland and Ireland;
Ostmen (Ireland and southwest Scotland only; Gaelicized Norsemen; dressed like Gaels, but with a Norse round shield, viking sword or axe, leather or chain armor, round metal helmet, trews)
Cymri Dynne (All of Britain and eastern Ireland; mercenary Welsh archers)
Gael Gaedhilbuanna (No province should start with these in them, but they should generate slowly; Gaelic-Norse raiders, available in eastern Ireland and southwest Scotland)
Gaelbuanna (Gaelic mercenaries in all of Britain, can be a number of mercenaries, really; just use the 'basic' units as mercs; names are easy, instead of 'naghta', the name ends in 'buanna' {'mercenaries'})


I'm aware you probably won't do all or most of that, but it's what I'd recommend for accurate Gaels (and keeps them from looking at all like Saxons or Welsh, since they didn't at all look like them).

[ScionTheWorm]

thanks Ranika, I think we could use a lot of them, thank god we havn't begun on these factions.

Legio: I think this is important information when setting up the tech tree (excluding and including units). It seems like one faction cannot have two units using the same model. Max number of models is 255, so shared units is a blessing. For instance, a spearman that on modelbasis can be shared between more nations (mainly helmets and weapons are important here) is very positive, while multiple units within the same faction that is almost alike is not. As a consequence, unique units that requires an unique model occupies 1 of this number 255 - while for instance a peasantmodel used by 6 nations only occupies one too (of course the max 500 units number should also be taken into consideration, but this number is quite high. Don't believe we will have that many units in this first release).

Of course we need a lot of unique models, but you should know about it anyway. In a version 2 we can then easely include a houndred or more units if wanted. The number 255 isn't that high when you think about horses, mercenaries ++

[Ranika]

All the mercenaries I listed should probably be able to use other unit models, and won't need unique ones. The Gaels would both share all of eachothers models, and horses shouldn't take too many model spaces over all. Really, that was a problem with EB. We plotted out units before realizing model limitations. Before doing a lot of work, you should plot all of your unit lists, and model usage. It'll save a ton of time and grief. Remember to also plot 2 models for each faction for the family generals and the lesser generals (though, again, Scots and Irish can use the same models there).

[ScionTheWorm]

thought about how we're going to name the units yet, legio? will we have CA-style and call a spade a spade, or maybe use names that was used in their native language? Ranika certainly brings up the issue with his expertise..

[Ranika]

If you need help, I can do Gaelic and Welsh names, some Saxon names. Unit space shouldn't be a big problem, just model space, so you can do a lot of units in different languages, that use the same model (like a generic militia that'd work for much of Europe and such).

Side note; edited my large post with units and what not, changed some names for varieties sake, rethought some choices on it, etc. Subsequently, I'd like to point out a little oddity. While the Norse are stereotyped as having used huge amounts of axes, they often used, instead, rather common, mass produced swords in favor of axes (at least in Britain and Ireland). To the contrary, their Irish and Scottish enemies both used substantially more axes in combat, but are usually depicted with swords more than axes.

[ScionTheWorm]

i'm very curious... do you know and remember all this by heart? anyway it's really helpful, hope we can get up the island tech trees within some days. (i'm skinning them)

I think we should get the naming convention thing resolved quickly... might even effect faction names, well I don't know, going to sleep now.

[Ranika]

I tend to, yes; I have a thing for memorization. It allows one to act much quicker than trying to rummage through books. There's plenty of stuff from the period though; the 'prophecies' (not actually prophecies of future events; they were actually just books and papers written on current events of the age), like the one that describes the conquest of Alba, lots of 'rolls' that number the soldiers involved (though they can vary, but the type of soldiers are consistent). I can help with the Welsh too, if you need that, but you seem to have that well enough in hand. The Welsh can logically share a great deal with Saxons (peasants and basic infantry would all look pretty similar), superficially (names and such would vary, assuming you used local names, but the appearance would generally be similar). However, Welsh were especially fond of skirmishers, and varied types of bowmen. The longbow DID exist (it had killed a Mercian king at Wansdyke in 825), so longbowmen are perfectly valid as a Welsh unit (and mercenary unit as well, Welsh longbows were hired pretty widely through Britain and northern Europe).

[GoreBag]

A sidenote to Ranika's comments about Gaelic dress: although the "clan tartan" didn't exist at the time, there should be a difference in tartan cloth from unit to unit - the position of a man in society was indicated by the number of colours on his plaid. Kings wore 7 colours, nobles 4 (druids, I've read, used to wear 6). Commoners should have a very low number of colours on their clothing.

[Ranika]

The lowest number of colors would be 2; slaves wore 1, but slavery had been outlawed in Gaelic society (the Irish Church outlawed slavery as St. Patrick had been a slave in Ireland), except a kind of 'indentured servant', which were still counted as citizens, though in service to some one else (would still wear 2 colors). Only prisoners of war wore 1 color (as they were provided 'appropriate' clothing, and they'd not show up as a unit anywhere). 7 colors were worn by the high king, but 'nobility' had multiple levels. There were also restriction on the TYPES of color worn. The colors were worn (to reiterate) on a shoulder cloak (draped around the chest and shoulder blades, fastened at the right shoulder), or on a full length, hooded cloak. The leine (shirt) would be a single color, often saffron-dyed, but there are other colors they used as well.

Arras (aristocrats) - Can use bright reds, greens, blues, black, and white;
High King - 7 colors
Lesser Kings - 6 colors
Chieftans - 5 colors
Chiefs - 4 colors

Tuatha (non-aristocrats) - Can use dark reds, greens, blues, cannot use black or white;
Champions (like Ridire) - 4 colors
Professional Soldiers - 3 colors
Citizens/Levy Soldiers - 2 colors
Slaves (in the pagan period; a moot point here)/Prisoners - 1 color

[Rodion Romanovich]

thought about how we're going to name the units yet, legio? will we have CA-style and call a spade a spade, or maybe use names that was used in their native language? Ranika certainly brings up the issue with his expertise..

I think units should have their native names, except when they are generic units.

New suggestion for Welsh and Scottish tech trees:

SCOTS
=====
- Chapel (+10 happiness, requires town), Church (+20 happiness, +1 morale, +5% law, requires large town), Cathedral (+40 happiness, +2 morale, +10% law, enable training of catholic fanatics - clubmen?, requires city)
- Abbey/Monastery (requires Church, +10% happiness - perhaps replace this building with specific monastery types for different religious orders granting different boni and which can only be built in a certain province/in certain provinces)
- Forest clearings (+5 farming, available from start in most provinces - high bonus to indicate how an important improvement this step means compared to no farming buildings), Farms (+8 farming), Crop rotation (+11 farming), Farming technology (+14 farming).
- Proper sewage (+10% health bonus), Herbal medicine (+15% health bonus).
- Paths, Mud roads
- Trader (+20% trade), Market (+40% trade), Merchant (+60% trade)
- Port, Shipyard, Dockyard (all these enable training of better and better ships)
- Blacksmith (+1 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Master blacksmith (+2 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Armorer (+1 to all armor, will NOT require blacksmith in order to be constructed), Master armorer (+2 to all armor)
- Salt mine (+1 mining), Large salt mine (+2 mining), Copper mine (+2 mining), Large copper mine (+4 mining), Silver mine (+3 mining), Large silver mine (+6 mining), Gold mine (+4 mining), Large gold mine (+8 mining). All mines require their respective resources in the province in order to be possible to build.
- Wooden pallisade, Wooden wall, Large wooden wall (possible to move on top of it), Stone wall (possible to move on top of it)

- Muster field (kernbannal [mean "levy troop", unarmored, club or spear, darts, are skirmishers]), Town militia (urban militia, +5% law)
- Bowmaker (soikernbannal [levy, stats like bowmen, can hide in long grass]), Bowmaker's workshop (regyddite bognaghta [ZOR southwest Scotland, archers]), Bowmaker's guild (-), Master bowmaker (criosionaghta [crossbowmen, leather armor, iron helmet, cudgel/mace backup])
- Practise target (requires bowmaker, +1 missile weapon xp), Archery range (+2 missile weapon xp)
- Spearmaker (pictish gaenaghta [light pict spearmen, javelins, small round shield]), Spearmaker's workshop (sleanaghta [spear, heavy throwing spears, large round shield, leather helmet, leather vest/coat]), Spearmaker's guild (gaemornaghta [long two-handed spear, phalanx, leather helmet, leather coat]), Master spearmaker (-)
- Horse farmer (guirran [light cavalry, overhand spear, large round shield, javelins, leather helmet, leather coat]), Stables (-), Cavalry stables (amguirran ridire [heavy cavalry, axes/swords, lance, large-ring chain armor, large round shield, iron conical helmet without nose guard, very expensive]), Elite cavalry stables (-)
- Cavalry training field (+1 to cavalry xp, requires Stables), Cavalry training grounds (+2 to cavalry xp, requires Cavalry stables)
- Weaponsmith (pictish taghnaghta [light pict axemen, small round shield - smaller than Gaelic targe]), Weaponsmith's workshop (tuanaghta [axe, heavy throwing spears, large round shield, leather helmet, leather coat], ridire [heavy infantry, axes, large-ring chain armor, large round shield, iron conical helmet, throwing spears]), Weaponsmith's guild (claiomhnaghta [mid-length swordsmen, javelins, large round shield, leather helmet, leather coat ], arras [foot nobles, longswords, chain armor, large round shield, iron conical helmet, javelins, expensive]), Master weaponsmith (gaelo-british arras [two-handed axe, no shield, otherwise much like arras])
- Barracks (requires Swordsmaker's workshop, +1 swordsmen xp), Army barracks (requires Swordmaker's guild, +2 swordsmen xp).
- Siege engineer (requires town, ballista), Siege engineer's workshop (requires large town, mangonel), Siege engineer's guild (-)

IRISH
====
- Chapel (+10 happiness, requires town), Church (+20 happiness, +1 morale, +5% law, requires large town), Cathedral (+40 happiness, +2 morale, +10% law, enable training of catholic fanatics - rastriagha [axe/cudgel/hammer - I suggest hammer?, round shield, probably wearing a crucifix, no armor, well trained], requires city)
- Abbey/Monastery (requires Church, +10% happiness - perhaps replace this building with specific monastery types for different religious orders granting different boni and which can only be built in a certain province/in certain provinces)
- Forest clearings (+5 farming, available from start in most provinces - high bonus to indicate how an important improvement this step means compared to no farming buildings), Farms (+8 farming), Crop rotation (+11 farming), Farming technology (+14 farming).
- Proper sewage (+10% health bonus), Herbal medicine (+15% health bonus).
- Paths, Mud roads
- Trader (+20% trade), Market (+40% trade), Merchant (+60% trade)
- Port, Shipyard, Dockyard (all these enable training of better and better ships)
- Blacksmith (+1 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Master blacksmith (+2 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Armorer (+1 to all armor, will NOT require blacksmith in order to be constructed), Master armorer (+2 to all armor)
- Salt mine (+1 mining), Large salt mine (+2 mining), Copper mine (+2 mining), Large copper mine (+4 mining), Silver mine (+3 mining), Large silver mine (+6 mining), Gold mine (+4 mining), Large gold mine (+8 mining). All mines require their respective resources in the province in order to be possible to build.
- Wooden pallisade, Wooden wall, Large wooden wall (possible to move on top of it), Stone wall (possible to move on top of it)

- Muster field (kernbannal [mean "levy troop", unarmored, club or spear, darts, are skirmishers]), Town militia (urban militia, +5% law)
- Bowmaker (soikernbannal [levy, stats like bowmen, can hide in long grass]), Bowmaker's workshop (maiobhanaghta [slingers, small round shield, knife backup, better than the Irish archers]), Bowmaker's guild (-), Master bowmaker (-)
- Practise target (requires bowmaker, +1 missile weapon xp), Archery range (+2 missile weapon xp).
- Spearmaker (-), Spearmaker's workshop (sleanaghta [spear, heavy throwing spears, large round shield, leather helmet, padded coat]), Spearmaker's guild (gaemornaghta [long two-handed spear, phalanx, leather helmet, padded coat]), Master spearmaker (-)
- Horse farmer (guirran [light cavalry, overhand spear, large round shield, javelins, leather helmet, padded coat]), Stables (-), Cavalry stables (amguirran ridire [heavy cavalry, axes/swords, lance, large-ring chain armor, large round shield, iron conical helmet without nose guard, very expensive]), Elite cavalry stables (-)
- Cavalry training field (+1 to cavalry xp, requires Stables), Cavalry training grounds (+2 to cavalry xp, requires Cavalry stables)
- Weaponsmith (-), Weaponsmith's workshop (tuanaghta [axe, heavy throwing spears, large round shield, leather helmet, leather coat], ridire [heavy infantry, axes, large-ring chain armor, large round shield, iron conical helmet, throwing spears], caeisornaghta [macemen, round-headed mace - not flanged, like medieval period mace, round shield, throwing spears, leather helmet, padded armor]), Weaponsmith's guild (claiomhnaghta [mid-length swordsmen, javelins, large round shield, leather helmet, leather coat], arras [foot nobles, longswords, chain armor, large round shield, iron conical helmet, javelins, expensive], inishnaghta [heavy cloaks, no armor, large round shield, bipenne axe - two blades, heavy throwing spears, leather helmet, painted skin, ZOR Ireland]), Master weaponsmith (-)
- Barracks (requires Swordsmaker's workshop, +1 swordsmen xp), Army barracks (requires Swordmaker's guild, +2 swordsmen xp)
- Siege engineer (requires town, ballista), Siege engineer's workshop (requires large town, mangonel), Siege engineer's guild (-)

MERCENARIES
===========
- Ostmen (heavy axemen, level 3 equivalent, fairly expensive, dressed like Gaels, norse round shield, viking sword or axe, leather armor, round metal helmet, HIRING ZONE: eastern Ireland and all of Scotland)
- Gael gaedhilbuanna [gaelic-norse raiders, light infantry, HIRING ZONE: eastern Ireland and southwest Scotland - perhaps some more. Not existing from start, medium replenish speed)

Question to Ranika: are Cymri Dynne same as welsh longbowmen?

[Ranika]

Cymri Dynne are mercenary Welsh shortbowmen; Cymri Dynneabhr are mercenary Welsh longbow men.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Cymri Dynne are mercenary Welsh shortbowmen; Cymri Dynneabhr are mercenary Welsh longbow men.

Ok, thanks

@ALL: I've updated the saxon tech tree a little now, by adding javelin-throwing ability to some cavalry units. Some sources imply that saxon cavalry threw their spears/javelins apart from using them in close combat, so at least some should have that ability.

I'm also working on improving the welsh tech tree now. The biggest problem is that there are almost no sources at all available. The best thing I found was this, which is probably not an entire reliable source:

"In war this nation is very severe in the first attack, terrible by their clamour and looks, filling the air with horrid shouts and the deep-toned clangour of very long trumpets; swift and rapid in their advances and frequent throwing of darts. Bold in the first onset, they cannot bear a repulse, being easily thrown into confusion as soon as they turn their backs; and they trust to flight for safety, without attempting to rally . . . Their courage manifests itself chiefly in the retreat, when they frequently return, and, like the Parthians, shoot their arrows behind them; and, as after success and victory in battle, even cowards boast of their courage, so, after a reverse of fortune, even the bravest men are not allowed their due claims of merit. Their mode of fighting consists in chasing the enemy or in retreating. This light-armed people, relying more on their activity than on their strength, cannot struggle for the field of battle, enter into close engagement, or endure long and severe actions . . . Though defeated and put to flight on one day, they are ready to resume the combat on the next, neither dejected by their loss, nor by their dishonour; and although, perhaps, they do not display great fortitude in open engagements and regular conflicts, yet they harass the enemy by ambuscades and nightly sallies. Hence, neither oppressed by hunger or cold, nor fatigued by martial labours, nor despondent in adversity, but ready, after a defeat, to return immediately to action, and again endure the dangers of war; they are as easy to overcome in a single battle, as difficult to subdue in a protracted war."
Giraldus Cambrensis 'Descriptio Cambriae'

It only confirms that the welsh relied much on bows and skirmishing tactics and less on heavy infantry or much cavalry, although they certainly had good cavalry for the leader and his closest men as pretty much all armies of the time. Also the source is probably exaggerating everything, the rest of the quotations I read for that same guy all contained phrases like: "the welsh are, more than any other people, [...]" or other formulations implying the author has a type of expressing himself that makes all things sound exaggerated. So the welsh will probably not need an extremely low morale in-game, neither should their skirmishing abilities and lack of strength in close combat be overestimated, although they'll probably more than for example saxons rely on ranged and skirmishing troops.

For the later Welsh armies (at the end of our period) there are better sources. The later Welsh armies organized themselves into two parts: the "Teulu" and a militia, i.e. the standard system with a core army and locally temporarily recruited levies. For the Welsh, the Teulu was less than 200 men strong and was simply a cavalry bodguard for kings, princes and chieftains in the shape of heavy retainers wearing chainmail, helmet and shield. The earliest Teulu used spear and javelins, the later ones (level 4 in our tech tree probably) used lance. The militia was recruited in a way similar to feudal recruitment, only difference is that it's claimed the welsh saw the service as an honor rather than an obligation. Men over 14 years of age were subject to this type of recruitment.

For the early army we can only guess the composition, but I think we can assume they used one core army centered around the chieftain and lower quality militia recruited temporarily. The militia armed with bows are however of higher quality than militia of other factions because the longbows etc. are extensively used for hunting. The core army will also be smaller for welsh than for others, meaning few recruitable meleé infantry units of professional/elite type. Later, the welsh will still use a small core army of good cavalry and rely as heavily as before on their levies, who will still be of unusually high quality at least when it comes to the archery.

A first suggestion:

WELSH
=====
- Muster field (town watch), Town militia (urban militia, +5% law)
- Bowmaker (cymri dynne [short bows of very good quality]), Bowmaker's workshop (cymri dynne +1 xp), Bowmaker's guild (cymri dynneabhr [longbows, long range, armor-piercing, fast]), Master bowmaker (cymri dynneabhr +1 xp)
- Practise target (requires bowmaker, +1 missile weapon xp), Archery range (+2 missile weapon xp)
- Spearmaker (welsh skirmishers/dartmen [low defense, low attack, good charge, short spears, javelins/darts, not that much anti-cav bonus]), Spearmaker's workshop (spearmen [the usual ones with their good anti-cav bonus], welsh heavy skirmishers/dartmen [medium defense, medium attack, good charge, longer spears, javelins/darts, not that much anti-cav bonus]), Spearmaker's guild (-), Master spearmaker (-)
- Horse farmer (militia swordscavalry, militia spearcavalry [javelin and spear]), Stables (scout cavalry, spearcavalry [spear and javelin]), Cavalry stables (dumnonian cavalry [good medium/heavy cavalry however no match for the best feudal or frankish knights, better than saxon sergeants in meleé but less impressive than the best saxon knights, ZOR west wealas], early teulu [spear and javelins, chainmail, helmet, shield, almost equivalent to frankish knights but the small unit makes them weaker in total, expensive]), Elite cavalry stables (teulu [lance, chainmail, helmet, shield, almost equivalent to feudal knights but the small unit makes them weaker in total, expensive])
- Cavalry training field (+1 to cavalry xp, requires Stables), Cavalry training grounds (+2 to cavalry xp, requires Cavalry stables).
- Weaponsmith (militia axemen), Weaponsmith's workshop (welsh axemen [axe and javelin, medium shield, good attack, can hide in long grass]), Weaponsmith's guild (welsh bandits [axe or sword and bow, medium shield, can hide in long grass]), Master weaponsmith (-)
- Barracks (requires Swordsmaker's workshop, +1 swordsmen xp), Army barracks (requires Swordmaker's guild, +2 swordsmen xp)
- Siege engineer (requires town, ballista), Siege engineer's workshop (requires large town, mangonel), Siege engineer's guild (-)

[ScionTheWorm]

Was wondering about zor and auxillary units.. will for instance the irish only be able to reqruit their units in lands far away and same for for instance welsh reqruiting longbows..? maybe only low level units far from home?

[Rodion Romanovich]

For those units where ZOR isn't mentioned at all I had in mind you'd be able to recruit them anywhere. Generally, I try to make all militia recruitable almost anywhere, whereas the better troops are often, but not always, restricted. It depends on the recruiting system. The Byzantines historically got problems with losing recruitment areas so I think they should have problems with it in the mod. If a faction almost only uses militia or other troops that require little training they should be able to train all their troops anywhere IMO. Still, they'll need some time before they can train their troops as I'll try to make all troop buildings incompatible with each other if possible, so you have to tear down an enemy's buildings and can't retrain your troops in newly conquered settlements. So for non-ZOR units you can recruit them anywhere, but only after some time which you can see as the time needed for loyalty in the settlement to increase.

[ScionTheWorm]

Okay sounds good. We could make a militia unit for each faction with some minor ajustments in the skins (so it won't be that much work). These could have lower loyality for instance, and the other troops should not be able to be reqruited before after some assimelating time. (I don't like the idea of reqruting viking units in sahara for instance)

[Ranika]

Of mercenaries in Britain, could also be Curuarci; they were Gaelic assassins, mostly, but they also fought as shock troops. They'd be Curuarcibuanna (Red Dog mercenaries); they were also used as shock troops. They wore clothing dyed red (hence the name) in battle, to stand out (they were pretty brash). Likely be armed with swords (they were pretty wealthy), heavy shields, and throwing spears, like other Gaelic infantry; maybe adept at hiding in tall grass and the like. More or less would just be high quality shock troops. Wouldn't need a new model, could use the same model as Claiomhnaghta.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Of mercenaries in Britain, could also be Curuarci; they were Gaelic assassins, mostly, but they also fought as shock troops. They'd be Curuarcibuanna (Red Dog mercenaries); they were also used as shock troops. They wore clothing dyed red (hence the name) in battle, to stand out (they were pretty brash). Likely be armed with swords (they were pretty wealthy), heavy shields, and throwing spears, like other Gaelic infantry; maybe adept at hiding in tall grass and the like. More or less would just be high quality shock troops. Wouldn't need a new model, could use the same model as Claiomhnaghta.

Added now, thanks ~:cheers:

@skeletor: Because you wanted to skin khazar units soon, I've started more thorough research to present a more final version of the khazar tech tree. I'll post the progress soon.

[skeletor]

Superbe! ~:)

I'm so looking forward to skin these fellas:
http://www.uralrne.org/images/bitva_rusov_hazar%20-%201.jpg
http://www.tgorod.ru/contentimage/horse1/khazar09.jpg
:charge:

-Skel-

[Rodion Romanovich]

SOME INFO ABOUT KHAZARS (SUMMARY OF WHAT I'VE READ):
===============================================
- The Khagan was formal leader, but the Bek, who was commander-in-cheif over the army, was the actual leader in all foreign affairs. Diplomacy, foreign politics and leading of the military was his task. The Bek was chosen after proven success on battlefield
- The army consisted of Jews, Christians, Muslims and Pagans at the same time - even at the time when religious warfare was the order of the day around the Mediterranean and in Western Europe
- The khazars had better organization than other Turkish and steppe peoples, and also had a more settled, urban than nomadic culture than many of the other steppe peoples. Pechenegs and Bulgars were considered "hordes" in comparison.
- First military significant appearance recorded in history occurred in 627 A.D. 40,000 Khazar horsemen allied to Byzantine Emperor Heraclius took part in campaign against Sassanian Persia.
- They could withstand the arab expansion well, but they lost much land and men and it took some time before they gained strength again. Then they went on the offensive against the arabs among others.
- They used good artillery already in the 7th century - ballistae and catapults (in-game the latter would be mangonels)
- They were however stopped from further expansion south after a while, and their further expansion was instead directed to the west. Territory was now extended from Caspian sea and lower Volga to north shore of Black sea as far as to the Dnepr to the west. It is possible that it was the Khazars that actually founded Kiev, sometime before the 9th century, but at least they for sure had control over the area just east of Kiev at this time. Tributes were recieved after actions against Alans, Magyars, Goths, Greeks of the Crimea and the Volga-Bulgars, which improved Khazar economy and allowed them to use mainly mercenaries for military service, just like the Byzantines. However, just like the Byzantines, loss of territories, tributes and other necessities for a good economy made the system crash when the Pechenegs rose in power and the Kievan Rus established a strong empire around Kiev. Tributes were lost, and some recruiting zones were beyond their control (in-game simulated by ZOR for certain units in only those provinces). A campaign of the Rus Prince Svyatoslav destroyed most of Khazar in the middle of the 10th century. Rus and viking influence here also competed for the trading that the khazars were carrying out. Last remnants of khazar were wiped out in early to middle 11th century, but small tribes emigrated westwards and survived some centuries more.

SOME KHAZAR TROOPS AND MILITARY-RELATED INFO:
========================================
- The Arsiyah cavalry formed the bulk of the Khazar standing army. Mostly non-arab muslims from Khwarazm and various central Asian city states along the silk road. They were mostly recruited as mercenaries.
- Khazar nobles and the Bek should have a good bodyguard in shape of a heavy cavalry force.
- Khazarian War Wagon - used to transport and protect the Khagan in battle. Defensive device, not a mobile missile-firing platform. Not a chariot either. Can't be represented in-game unless it's possible to have a one-man unit with high defense but 0 or 1 in attack, but I'm not sure that's possible. Anyone who knows if it's possible to have a one-man unit based on a chariot?
- Torkils and Burtas were small Turkish tribes from which other mounted troops above levy quality were recruited. Torkils lived at khazar west borders as a buffer between Khazars and the Pechenegs (so this means Khazar won't recruit any pecheneg troops), near Kiev area (possibly ZOR Kiev?) and Burtas just north of Caspian sea.
- Levy cavalry and infantry was recruited from alan, volga-bulgarian and some maygar tributaries - but this recruiting possibility was lost when khazar lost tributaries and influence during Kievan Rus expansion time.
- Bactrian camels were used to transport troops, equipment and supplies. Perhaps this means the khazars could also have an option of fighting with camel troops occasionally (but the camels should be limited in many ways to prevent them from appearing much at all on battlefields, or if necessary - removed).
- Perhaps add a unit with drums and other musical instruments that has an unnerving effect on opponents. Turkish armies were often using musicians to unnerve opponents, although if we aren't keeping any other unnerving troops these musicians could perhaps be worth excluding too. However, I think there's more motivation to keep turkish musicians than any other singing/chanting/screeching troops.
- A small core of better khazar guard, a type of infantry, would assist levy footmen of different types. Slavic and perhaps even Rus levy footmen could fight as infantry for the khazars.
- Khazar, slav and alan archers of levy quality would support the khazars. The sources don't specifically speak of very good khazar archers, so archery shouldn't be extremely good, although not extremely bad either.
- As there are so many types of different auxilia I'm creating units called "auxilia x" in some cases. The Arsiyah troops will however be own units considering their importance. Arsiyah could also be called Khwarazmians, but Arsiyah seems to be the most frequently used name in the sources.

THE KHAZAR TECH TREE
==================
The tech tree in the first post has also been updated.

I believe the cavalrymen on the upper picture could become alan auxilia cavalry. On the second picture, the knight at the front could become arsiyah cavalry or khazar royal cavalry. The guy at the back could probably become khazar horse archers or perhaps khazar auxilia horse archers.

[oj121]

Ok, thanks

WELSH
=====
- Muster field (town watch), Town militia (urban militia, +5% law)
- Bowmaker (cymri dynne [short bows of very good quality]), Bowmaker's workshop (cymri dynne +1 xp), Bowmaker's guild (cymri dynneabhr [longbows, long range, armor-piercing, fast]), Master bowmaker (cymri dynneabhr +1 xp)
- Practise target (requires bowmaker, +1 missile weapon xp), Archery range (+2 missile weapon xp)
- Spearmaker (welsh skirmishers/dartmen [low defense, low attack, good charge, short spears, javelins/darts, not that much anti-cav bonus]), Spearmaker's workshop (spearmen [the usual ones with their good anti-cav bonus], welsh heavy skirmishers/dartmen [medium defense, medium attack, good charge, longer spears, javelins/darts, not that much anti-cav bonus]), Spearmaker's guild (-), Master spearmaker (-)
- Horse farmer (militia swordscavalry, militia spearcavalry [javelin and spear]), Stables (scout cavalry, spearcavalry [spear and javelin]), Cavalry stables (dumnonian cavalry [good medium/heavy cavalry however no match for the best feudal or frankish knights, better than saxon sergeants in meleé but less impressive than the best saxon knights, ZOR west wealas], early teulu [spear and javelins, chainmail, helmet, shield, almost equivalent to frankish knights but the small unit makes them weaker in total, expensive]), Elite cavalry stables (teulu [lance, chainmail, helmet, shield, almost equivalent to feudal knights but the small unit makes them weaker in total, expensive])
- Cavalry training field (+1 to cavalry xp, requires Stables), Cavalry training grounds (+2 to cavalry xp, requires Cavalry stables).
- Weaponsmith (militia axemen), Weaponsmith's workshop (welsh axemen [axe and javelin, medium shield, good attack, can hide in long grass]), Weaponsmith's guild (welsh bandits [axe or sword and bow, medium shield, can hide in long grass]), Master weaponsmith (-)
- Barracks (requires Swordsmaker's workshop, +1 swordsmen xp), Army barracks (requires Swordmaker's guild, +2 swordsmen xp)
- Siege engineer (requires town, ballista), Siege engineer's workshop (requires large town, mangonel), Siege engineer's guild (-)

I like the basic idea that you have got with the Welsh troops yet they have a very small selection of troops. Maybe introduce a high level swordsman and an armoured spearman of equivilaant quality to the Saxons. Also seeing as the Welsh are so fond of skirmishing, shouldnt elite units such as the Welsh bandits and maybe some of the other skimish troops have the ability to hide anywhere? Im sure others would agree. Also i feel they should have the ability to have combat bonuses in forests etc like the Germans in Rome.

[Rodion Romanovich]

I like the basic idea that you have got with the Welsh troops yet they have a very small selection of troops. Maybe introduce a high level swordsman and an armoured spearman of equivilaant quality to the Saxons. Also seeing as the Welsh are so fond of skirmishing, shouldnt elite units such as the Welsh bandits and maybe some of the other skimish troops have the ability to hide anywhere? Im sure others would agree. Also i feel they should have the ability to have combat bonuses in forests etc like the Germans in Rome.

The campaign map we'll use will probably have more forests and grass to hide in than the R:TW map, so hide anywhere might not be needed for any unit. But I'm definitely considering to give the welsh abilities to hide well in grass or everywhere. As better footmen I'm considering to add dismounted teulu but they'd be really expensive.

[oj121]

Can you send me a good link about the Teulu. Im a welshman who has studied Medival history to degree level but i cant find anything about them. Its a bit off topic but what are they meant to be. Mounted nobles i presume?

[skeletor]

http://www.welshdragon.net/resources/Historical/warfare.shtml

http://www.georgetown.edu/users/kammerb/combat.htm

Strange, i found them mentioned many places, usualy as the cheiftain's, or princes bodyguard

"The prince had his teulu - not a family in the modern sense of the Welsh word - but a bodyguard. The teulu was a band of fighting men of noble status, the uchelwyr , led by a loyal relation of the prince, the penteulu . In time of war, the prince could also call on his freemen to serve in his army, the llu."

-Skel-

[oj121]

Thanks man. Appreciate the link. I love Welsh history so much i study it in my free time for fun. Plus i graduated with a proper degree today in Ancient and Medieval History. Yay for me

[Ranika]

Some other mercenaries or soldiers to consider;

Mercenaries/Regionals;

Æxberendan - 'Axe-Bearers'; Anglo-Saxon mercenary axemen (big surprise there), they were hired in huge numbers by the early Scots, Welsh, and I believe on mainland Europe as well. Æxberendan were also just any soldier carrying a axe. Maybe as mercenaries in Britain and around Germany

Æscberendan - 'Spear-Bearers'; Anglo-Saxon mercenary spearmen (big surprise there), they were hired in huge numbers by the early Scots, Welsh, and I believe on mainland Europe as well. Æscberendan were also just any soldier carrying a spear. Maybe as mercenaries in Britain and around Germany


Some types of Frankish/Germanic soldiers, perhaps of some use, though the names may be a bit dated, but possibly for Lotharingia?;

Woígan or Wígan - Frankish 'Warriors', spear specifically would be æscwoígan, acswoígan/æxwoígan would be axemen, bægwígan would be archers, etc. Warriors were non-professional soldiers.

Milæscan - Frankish regular spearmen; I think from the Germanic 'æsc' (spear), and Latin 'miles' (soldiers)

Milæxan - Frankish regular axemen


Some Welsh units;

Alltbadwyr - Actually only noted (to my knowledge) at a single battle (Dun Finwain), they were horse archers, probably an outgrowth of Sarmatian auxiliaries brought in the Roman period. They engaged an invading force of the Des Coillai, and were only driven off by slingmen, who could outrange them.

Alltwigwylln - 'Hill Men', generally drawn from more isolated tribes, Garret of Tygan describes them fighting in support of an allied Irish army in Cumbria; "They carry clubs banded in iron and great shields, and some fight naked to the waist, but some wear leather shirts, but they all wear white cloaks and carry 'gae'"; 'gae' is ambigous here, hence my not translating it. Gae could be a spear, or darts, or a javelin.

Gwoidyll Ayfwr - In western Wales, there was a substantial Gaelic population and sub-culture; this was a by-product of the west of Wales once belong to the Des Mumai of Ireland, and their large colonization projects. In this period, the Gaels remained, and some of their local nobles were employed as a compliment to Welsh armies. Probably just as spearmen, or some other form of light infantry or skirmishers.


I should note that much of this from memory, and my knowledge of Germanic languages is poor, at best. The mercenary names are from Scottish rolls (so, imitating the Saxon language, it may be inaccurate), and the Frankish stuff is from actual Frankish writing, but the names may be out of date; more Latin worked into the language over time and worked out much of the German.

[GoreBag]

Interesting that aex would ba an axe, but aesc would be a spear. Such a slight different.

I remember reading that the typically white trash version of "ask", "aks", is actually correct by Saxon standards, because there were two forms of the same verb in use at a certain period - "Ascen" and "acsen". "Ascen" eventually proved to be more popular, hence why it's the proper form of the word in English, but there is really no difference in meaning between the two.

Anyway, just food for thought.

[Ranika]

I do worry about using the names due to the similarity of the them, but my Anglo-Saxon is too poor to know any other words for 'spear', and that's the only way I've ever seen it written.

[GoreBag]

Narayanese seems to speak old Saxon. Maybe he should be contacted.

[ScionTheWorm]

Brainstorming a little, I'm a little bored... sorry if these issues are decided already.
- Religion: not implemented in rtw as in mtw... could be similated with buildings. For instance Christianize province, 10 turns... happyness and such affected. As I understand the only way will be to use buildings..? It's not that bad really.
- Hmm... maybe possible, don't know. If for instance you are norway; they are initially pagan, but if a man with the trait "christian" is becoming king, you need to christianize the provinces to not rebelling.
- Trees: not really about the tech tree, but let's reduce the size of trees on battlemap by 1/4 or something. Could easely be done in max i believe...

[Incongruous]

Magyar units should be:
Cavalry.
Magyer Tribesmen (rather like the Scythian nobles) and Kabars (exactly the same as Khazar horse archers)
to
Arpad Aristocracy(stronger and more decorative version of Magyer) and Székely (Rugged Hunnic peoples, semi-civilised looking, amazing firepower greater than the longbow) and Avars (Mailed horse archers, almost as powerful as the Székely )
to
Now nearly a century after the battle of Letchfield some Latin author described mailed cavalry carrying a lance and a bow called "Hungarus" which quite simply means in english Hungarian. I'll try to find a better name but these guys are Christianised Magyars prodominently.
There would also be Transylvanian Knights (these are the christianised Székely) these guys are nutters, I have read stories about these guys causing Turks to flee the field just by beeing there. They will have Scail/mail armour, very very high morale and high attack but they were only ever banded into small groups, say maybe only 40-50 men per unit, they should have reddish armour and facings.
Then there would be also be knights from the city of Bhuda, a very westernised city, so they would be rather like Frankish knights.

Thats all I have time for hope its helpfull.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Brainstorming a little, I'm a little bored... sorry if these issues are decided already.
- Religion: not implemented in rtw as in mtw... could be similated with buildings. For instance Christianize province, 10 turns... happyness and such affected. As I understand the only way will be to use buildings..? It's not that bad really.
- Hmm... maybe possible, don't know. If for instance you are norway; they are initially pagan, but if a man with the trait "christian" is becoming king, you need to christianize the provinces to not rebelling.
- Trees: not really about the tech tree, but let's reduce the size of trees on battlemap by 1/4 or something. Could easely be done in max i believe...

I think no. 2 is impossible and therefore no. 1 isn't that good to include. Unfortunately this means Norway etc. have to be pagan all the way through the mod... No. 3 makes sense, but I personally don't know how to do it, it's probably done by editing one of the models files. 1/4 is IMO an appropriate amount to decrease the height with.

[Incongruous]

I think well have to re-write a bit of history because during the earlt 11cen. Magyar was invaded and a puppet Magyar prince enthroned, all ties with the pagan steppe were lost. So maybe you should leave knights out of the Magyar equasion.

so no christianised cavalry?.

Cavalry

Magyar units should be:
Cavalry.
Magyer Tribesmen (rather like the Scythian nobles very fast and very powerful bows) and Kabars (exactly the same as Khazar horse archers)
to
Arpad Aristocracy(stronger and more decorative version of Magyer) and Székely (Rugged Hunnic peoples, semi-civilised looking, amazing firepower greater than the longbow) and Avars (Mailed horse archers, almost as powerful as the Székely )
to
Carpathian Riders/nobles (the people round the carpathians held on tightly to Magyar tradition) these people are just a re-vamped version of Arpad Aristocracy.
Pannonian Avars, these are the westernised descendants of the steppe Avars and are armed with lances and armoured with chainmail and a Frankic helm.
fejedelem, these are powerfull landowners and each one is the head of a Magyar tribe, they were followed into battle by the best of the best (heavily armoured Magyars carryind a bow and curved sword, they would be like Frankish knights except faster and carrying a bow and curved sword).
Kende , this is the supreme chief of the Magyars, he was important because only he could keep the tribes unified, he would be followed into battle by ten hand picked Fejedelem (these men were armed with long lances and curved swords, they would also be wearing Frankic type armour but with a little Magyar design in it.)

[ScionTheWorm]

I think well have to re-write a bit of history because during the earlt 11cen. Magyar was invaded and a puppet Magyar prince enthroned, all ties with the pagan steppe were lost. So maybe you should leave knights out of the Magyar equasion.

so no christianised cavalry?.

Yes, I vote for no knights. If magyar is invaded in the game by a catholic faction, the ties will be lost, catholic knights will be reqruitable, and it won't be rewritten... right?

Do you know how the bulgarian unit list may relate to the magyars? Not necessarily detailed, but I guess there would be a lot of similar units like for irish/scots in this timeperiod?

[ScionTheWorm]

I think no. 2 is impossible and therefore no. 1 isn't that good to include. Unfortunately this means Norway etc. have to be pagan all the way through the mod... No. 3 makes sense, but I personally don't know how to do it, it's probably done by editing one of the models files. 1/4 is IMO an appropriate amount to decrease the height with.

So no more religion than rtw-cultures and the senate-as-pope thing? I guess it's ok, but I think nifty building or traits could do something... let's see.

Harald StorHarde is born in 930 a.d. with the trait "very christian" or maybe something much better. ok this can only be realized if a trait can affect morale negatively in a province - unless a specific building is built. this building would in that case be "christianize province". in fact, if a character has this trait, the province should become very rebellous so a rebel army probably would attack, to simulate how peasants do not welcome this new horseshit..

this is just in case though, I guess it's a longshot... besides, I think many players, being metalheads and all, welcome a pagan north without christianity.

[Incongruous]

Ok Bulgars.

I think that by this time their army was preodominatley on foot.
So cavalry.
I can't read the language so these are going to be Anglophied names ok.
Bulgar nobles.
Scale mail, triangular shields of wood, pionted metal helmet, long thrusting spear and short straight sword.
Bulgar plainsmen.
Scail and leather armour, bows, leather pointed cap, very fast.
Central Bulgars.
Mail armour, large semi-circular shield, bow, the helmet would of been pionted at the top, with a large rim over the forehead and mail hanging down at the back. Trousesrs would of been quite baggy.
Bulgars of the black sea.
These Bulgars would have been some sort of medium armoured spearmen.
A large amount of scail mail, same kind of helmet as the central bulgars, but this time with a metal eyepiece.
There is also eveidence of some kind of fast swordsman, who I suppose would have worn scail and leather and also carried bows as a secondry weapon.

[Incongruous]

Magyar infantry.

Magyer
simple as hell kind'a infantry.
(really fast), leather armour, no shield and a long curved blade. not the best.
to
Magyer retainers, chain mail, long curved sword, and what I can only describe as well, viking helm, you know with the eye piece and nose gaurd, with cahinmail hanging down the neck And Fejedelem Avars, (these guys are really quite good) long spear, chain mail and leather boots and Frankic helms.
to
Székely (these guys have the same name as their mounted countrymen, so you might want to call them Székely infantry), these guys are real nutters, they wear chain mail topped with lether "Roman looking" shoulder gaurds, they wear the same helm as Magyar retainers except they have chain mail hanging down from the entire rim of the Helm, so all you can see was their eyes, they carried a straight sword and a hunnic bow.
to
Fejedelem Magyar, these are troops raised from a "princes own houshold, (they would rather die than see their prince killed), Chainmail hauberk and a long rich red and yellow tunic they wear underneath that comes down to their knees, leather trousers and tall leather boots. Long two handed curved blade, these guys wear the same helmet as Székely infantry except sometimes they would put on feathery crests, these men also carried bows, (they would be used the same way as pila, fired before closing with an enemy). also Buddha Magyar, Fankic type infantry, mail, fancic helm and a francic sword, (their just Frakish fan club really.

[ScionTheWorm]

Thanks Bopa, I think you're really providing lots of excellent information on subjects we haven't got any proprer research on yet..

[GoreBag]

Religion: not implemented in rtw as in mtw... could be similated with buildings. For instance Christianize province, 10 turns... happyness and such affected. As I understand the only way will be to use buildings..? It's not that bad really.


Marian reforms, perhaps? Bops said that the puppet prince was enthroned in the 11c, which was also when Scandinavia was fully Christianised, if I recall correctly. Perhaps an event should be triggered around that time to represent the Christian transformation of the formerly pagan states, thus allowing the more Christian units to be recruited.

This is just my "two cents", but I'm in the same boat as Scion in the sense that I've been pondering it.

[Incongruous]

NOTE:
The Magyar names have been simplified in order to show some kind of advancement structure if you know what I mean e.g Magyer-Magyer retainers-.Fejedelem Magyar. I just thought that going "EB" style on the Magyars might confuse people who don't speak the language. But if you want I can put back the original names.

[Incongruous]

Ok been doing some research, the Magyars should also have Bulgar, Frankish and a few Greek troops.
I would guess that they would be using a unit similar if not identical to central Bulgars, they should have some sort of East Fankian unit and some kingd of Greaco-Turkic skirmishers.

[Incongruous]

Here is a great picture of a magyar kende surrounded by Fejedelem and his mounted retainers.

http://www.kolumbus.fi/rauno.huikari/Piirrokset/unkarilaiset_900luvulla.jpg

A magyar noble of the Arpadian dynasty.

http://www.kolumbus.fi/rauno.huikari/Piirrokset/jousimies.jpg

A Magyar bow, far more powerful than the longbow at this time period I believe.
http://www.atarn.org/magyar/Image27.gif

This is a drawing based off a wall picture, it will help you understand how the Magyer infantry looked like.
http://www.atarn.org/magyar/Image28.gif

and here is a revised version of the Magyar millitary, far more historically
acurate and I have put back the correct names.

Infantry


Kisebbik Magyar.
A long knee lenght robe of red and yellow cloth under a thicker brown woolen garment that covered the chest, pointed leather cap rimmed with fur, a Magyar recurve bow, and either a spear, a sabre, or an axe.

Kisebbik Kabar , a thigh lenght tunic of green wool, knee length brown leather boots, a Magyar recurve bow, a simple iron skull cap and leather strips wrapped round their arm from their fingers to their elbows.

to second rung.

Kisebbik Magyar ból a Fejedelem, these are the lesser men from a Fejedelem's (princes) Magyer/tribe, they wear thigh length leather boots, a thigh lenght tunic of red cloth under a hauberk of scale armour and an iron pointed helmet with chainmail covering the back of the neck, carry the Magyar sabre aka. Hunnicus Gladius, a Magyar recurve bow and a round wooden shield covered in leather.

Lábfejek ból Székely fiú ból a Hunor, these are the Huns of the Alföld sons of Hunor brother of Magor father of the Magyars. These people are hard and rugged fighters, all that is left of the "Scourge of God". They wear a grey woollen thigh lenght tunic, and knee lenght leather boots, they wear on their torso a leather jerkin trimmed with Wolf fur and a leather pointed cap also trimmed with wolf fur. They carry the same bow as the Magyars and the same sword they also carry a small iron round shield.

Kisebbik Avars ból a Alföld, these heavily armoured spearmen are a strange concept in a Magyar army, they are slow moving heavily armoured spearmen. They wear a chainmail longsleeved hauberk that reaches just below their knees, a pair of fur boots and gloves, a pointed iron/steel helmet with a nose gaurd and eyepeices with chain mail attached from ear to ear. As a weapon they carry a long one handed thrusting spear, and in the other hand they hold a wooden tringular shield rimmed with steel/iron.

To Third Rung.

Lábfejek Magyar, these are the ultimate when it comes to pure Magyar shock infantry. long sleeved Chain mail hauberk, leather boots and gloves, a large two handed Magyar sabre, a pointed steel helm with a leather neck guard from cheek to cheek and alarge round shield on their back.

Kende's Avars. They were described by europeans as carrying "Halberds", they would wear a rich red and yellow cloth knee length tunic under a thigh length long sleeved mail hauberk, they wore knee lenght leather boots and "cut-off" gloves. Their helmet would have been the same as the Lábfejek Magyar but with a hoarse hair crest of red and yellow.

Kende's Lábfejek, these men were born to fire a bow, their skill is unmatched, they are the elite of the Magyar infantry. They would wear a long sleeved knee length cloth tunic of Red and yellow trimmed with green, under an open sleevless jacket of red and yellowed dyed wool trimmed with white fure. Their leather boots were knee lenght and black as were their gloves, their trousers were of a fine green cloth. They carried the best and most powerful recurve bowsand a steel sabre, on their heads they wore pointed steel helmet from which hung a chainmail neck gaurd from ear to ear and atop it they had a red, yellow and green hoarse hair crest.

Magyars ból Buda. These Magyar serve as the guards of the Royal city of Buda, they are formiddible fighters the elite among the seven Magyar tribes, the Huns, Avars and Khabars. They wield the long straight sword of the Franks, carry the Frankish kite shield and are armoured in exactly the same fashion as Frankish knights. Among them would be the Magyar priest the Táltos who would carry into battle the legendry banner of Árpád, The Turul.

I hope this is ok, when do you think you will have the first moddels done?

[Incongruous]

I guess the "foriegn" troops could be region specific.

[skeletor]

~:cheers:
Thats amasing Bopa.. Thnx..

Have you got any ideas on their banner.. It could be anything from a Leather in a wooden frame, to a solid metal object.. Eather way it wold be cool having it in another material than they usually are..

I think it wold look cool with a skin if some kind, in a wooden frame, with wolf fur on the edge, and a print of the faction mark. Maybe some special metal objects on it too.

Any thoughts..

[Incongruous]

Yeah, I have thought abaout it, the symbol is the Turul, which I suppose would be a patchwork of Greens, blues and whites, while outside it could be a rich red and and and imperial yellow kind of circuler swirl and angles design and then have white fur around it. You could give the inside a cloth and leather texture.

[skeletor]

Yeah, I have thought abaout it, the symbol is the Turul, which I suppose would be a patchwork of Greens, blues and whites, while outside it could be a rich red and and and imperial yellow kind of circuler swirl and angles design and then have white fur around it. You could give the inside a cloth and leather texture.

:dizzy2: I'll see what i can do when i get to it. The turul, and the fur edges wil be really cool i guess. The ammount of colors must be a bit restricted to make it look good ingame.. Too many colors will make it look completely brown ingame, as the colorpixles blend, so i'll see what i can do.

Allso, it wold be nice giving them a less imperialized look compared to the Byzantines ect. They were nomads moving from the eastern steppes due to overcrowding and tribal wars, so giving them a bit nomadic look wold be apropriate for the mod.(Atleast this is what National Geographic writes in their article on them, in the former issue.)


I'll wait for the complete faction symbol to comes out, and make the banner in the same style. It wold be cool having fur edges on their factionsymbol too (hint, hint, Scion ~D )

-Skel-

[ScionTheWorm]

fur edges - good idea. damn I was thinking about waiting for your banner before completing mine... have sit quite some time with this icon now... but one magyar coming up.

[Ranika]

A more general mercenary; of Gaelic origin, but worked a lot of places, from about 750 into the early Renaissance; in English 'The Green Harpers'. Could be present in much of western Europe, maybe eastern Europe even (they were generally criminals, who joined the 'Green Harpers' of Leinster, which worked over a pretty wide area). I know I put out a lot of Gaelic stuff, but, it's what I know.

Uaincruitalthan; could use any Gaelic 'regular' model, but instead of a padded or leather coat, texture it to look like chain armor though. Maybe axemen of some kind.

Just a thought, since getting mercenaries that aren't generic but work over a wide area may be difficult.

[Incongruous]

Yeah restricting the banner to Green, Red yellow and black trimmed with white fur would be good.
Oh and the Magyars were not Nomads, they had settled pasturial and agricultural settlements. A group of Magyars known as the White Magyars had been living in the Carpathian basin since A.D632, they had an advanced agricultural society by the time the Arppadian or Black Magyars came to EWyrop in the late 800's A.D.

[Incongruous]

Ok here goes the cavalry.
Note: Magyar cavalry should be bettter than the horse archers depicted in RTW. These guys wereb't defeated for over a century remember.

Cavalry.

Néptörzs Magyar. These fierce fighters from the Taranian plain shook Europe to its core, their ferociaty and skill with the bow and sabre allowed them to defeat every enemy they encountered for over a century, while the Englisc would dread the sails of the Viking keels, the rest of Europe would dread the thunder of Magayar hooves. "From the Magyars' arrows deliver us, oh God!". These horse archers would wear a knee lenght tunic of red and yellow cloth covered by a leather cuirass. Their boot were tough leather and went all the way up to the thighs. They wore leather bands around their hands to protect their fingers from the bow's lasserations. Their helmet was pointed iron with a horse hair crest of red upon it. Their horses had leather and scail protection and their stirrups allowed them great mobility upon the field.

Néptörzs Khabars. These tribesmen split off from the main Khazar community and joined the Magyar federation in search of a better home. They would wear a green knee length tunic and knee length leather boot along with a leather pointed cap rimmed with fur. They carried the Magyar recurve bow and the curved sabre. Their horse would of had only leather padding. These men are some of the fastest cavalry around, but lack armour.

To Second Rung.

Magyars ból a Alföld. These Magyars enjoy the benefits of technology and wealth. They wear a red and yellow knee length tunic under a sleeveless fir trimmed green jacket. Their boots are knee length and leather trimmed with white fur. They wear black leather gloves on their hands. They carry, a recurve bow and a sabre. Their horses are protected by scale and leather padding armour.

Nyugatra Avar. These Avars are all that remains of the people that once stormed forth from the Taranian plain. But they are still deadly. They would wear a chain mail hauberk and thigh lenght leather boots, a steel "Frankik" helmet with nose guard and eyepieces. These men would carry a long spear and a kite shield. Their horses had scale and leather padding/armour. These men are the earliest form of Magyar heavy cavalry.

Nagy Székely. These are the last nobles of the western Branch of the Huns, they are a proud race who ache for better times, they see the coming of their Magyar bretheren as their salavation. "They thought the scourge gone, but it was only drawing breath". These men wear black and grey furs over a cote of mail. Their helmets have developed from Rus and Hunnic designs, the result is a truly fearsome look. A pionted steel helm rimmed with black or grey wolf fur, it has a nose guard and eyepieces, a chain mail neck guard covers all of the face and neck save the eyes, atop this helm is a black horse hair plume. They wear chain and leather boots and and gloves, they carry the dreaded recurve bow as a secondry weapon, their main weapon is the dreaded double headed hun battle axe, at the tip of its head are hooks which they use to catch routers or pull other cavalrymen from their saddles. They also carry a round wooden shield coverd with leather and rimmed with steel. Their horses have scale armour covered with a black and grey fur horse coat. These men were called the scourge of god for good reason.

To Third Rung.

Lovasság ból a Fejedelem. These are the lesser nobles of a "prince's" tribe, some would even be his family. After seeing what heavily armoured horse could do the Magyar princes started to equip themselves and their retainers with heavy mail hauberks, they also started to put heavy scail-mail armour on their horses. These men wear a rich green and yellow thigh length tunic over a (long sleeved) knee length mail hauberk, there boots are still of leather as are their gloves. They wear the same helmet as the Nagy Székely except they have a green horse pleum instaed. They carry the recurve bow, and a larger version of the Magayar sabre. They are lead into battle by a prince, who would be wearing a lavish red and yellow cloak over a chainmail hauberk, they would wear black leather boots and gloves. They carry a recurve bow and a a sabre. Upon their heads they wear a steel frankik helm with a steel crouwn on it, atop this they would have a plume of red and yellow horse hair and three black feathers. Their horses are armoured exactly the same way as their men.

Lovasság ból a Alföld. These heavy lancers of the Pannonian plain are the second arm of the Magyar heavy cavalry wing. Armoured with a round wooden shield covered with leather and rimmed with steal, plate-mail, and a Frankik helm with nose guard and chain mail coif along with chain mail gloves. armed with a strong heavy lance and a sabre. Their horses are armoured with scail and leather padding. These men are part of the new Magyar cavalry wing, a heavy westernised lancer, they do not use the bow. These men have the edge over their western counterparts as they have more experiance because of almost constant warfare with Byzantium and the Bulgars for near a hundred years.

To Fourth Rung

Nemes ból a Palota. These nople of the palace have been selected from the highest nobles in the realm and have sworn undying alliegence to the Kende.
These men like the Magyars ból Buda are armed and armoured in the modern Frankik way, they are infact "pagan" versions of mounted knights. They bring onto the fiels the sacred banner of the Turul. When these men charge staraight at you, then you will know true fear, each and everyone hase been riding a horse since the age of four, they are the devil on horseback.

Pata ból a Kende. These men are the chosen warriors from among all the peoples of the Magyar fedarate, they wear plate and mail armour, a mail coif and gloves. Their helmet are the same as Lovasság ból a Fejedelem except thier plume is white. They carry a large Magyar sabre, a recurve bow and a kite shield. Their horses are armoured with chain-mail and then have a white horse coat over it. These men wear a red coat trimmed with white fur.
They are led into battle by the Kende (sumpreme chief/king) this man would wear plait armor and chainmail, a steel frankik helm, atop which is the Turul crest ( just a falcon with wings spread and both feet upn the helmet) made of silver, he would have a red and yellow sash around his waist. His horse would have chain mail armour coverd by a white and black horse coat.

This is the entire cavalry list, hope its ok it took me fricken ages. :book:
Note: all magyars cavalry had the stirrup.

[Incongruous]

Just found out that Magyar archers didn't need hand protection so take away gloves from all primary archer units, but armoured units and heavy/medium cav should keep then

[Rodion Romanovich]

Ok, thanks Bopa, you've been of much help. Now that you've posted all info needed I'll look over the tech tree and soon remake it according to your research.

[Rodion Romanovich]

First attempt at Magyar unit lists and which buildings they'll be trained in:

SPEARS
1 - Kisebbik Magyar Spearmen - Light spearmen with recruve bows. Knee length robe, thicker wool covering chest, pointed fur-rimmed leather cap
2 -
3 - Kisebbik Avars ból a Alföld - these heavily armoured spearmen are a strange concept in a Magyar army, they are slow moving heavily armoured spearmen. They wear a chainmail longsleeved hauberk that reaches just below their knees, a pair of fur boots and gloves, a pointed iron/steel helmet with a nose gaurd and eyepeices with chain mail attached from ear to ear. As a weapon they carry a long one handed thrusting spear, and in the other hand they hold a wooden tringular shield rimmed with steel/iron, expensive, multiple training turns.
4 -


WEAPONSMITH
1 - Kisebbik Magyar Axemen - Light axemen with recruve bows. Knee length robe, thicker wool covering chest, pointed fur-rimmed leather cap, fairly cheap.
2 - Kisebbik Magyar ból a Fejedelem - Medium sabremen (hunnicus gladius) with recurve bow, round leather-covered wooden shield, scale armor hauberk, pointy iron helmet with chainmail down over back of neck.
3 - Lábfejek Magyar - Heavy shock two-handed long sabremen. Large round shield on the back, long chainmail hauberk, leather boots and gloves, ponty steel helmet with leather neck guard. About equivalent to huscarles in many ways, expensive.
4 - Magyars ból Buda - Heavy foot knights with frankish style equipment. Long straigth sword, kite shield, armored as frankish knights. Use the eagle banner function of R:TW engine to make them bring with them the Turul into battle, expensive, elite, multiple turns training.

BOWMAKER
1 - Kisebbik Kabar - Archers with magyar recruve bow and very light equipment (perhaps only dagger) for close combat. Thigh lenght green wool tunic, knee length brown leather boots, simple iron skull cap, leather strips wrapped around arm, from fingers to elbows.
2 - Lábfejek ból Székely fiú ból a Hunor - magyar recurve bow, sabre (hunnicus gladius) and small round iron shield. Grey wool thigh length tunic, knee length leather boots, leather jerkin with wolf fur on torso and leather pointed cap trimmed with wolf fur, small unit size.
3 - Kende's Lábfejek - elite archers, better quality recurve bows, steel sabre,
knee length cloth tunic, open sleeveless jacket, knee-length leather boots, leather gloves, pointy steel helmet with chainmail neck guard, expensive, elite.

CAVALRY
1 - Néptörzs Khabars - extremely fast, light horse archers with magyar recurve bow and sabre, horse with leather padding, almost unarmored means weak in front-to-front meleé, very cheap and easy to get.
2 - Néptörzs Magyar - light to medium horse archers with bow and sabre, leather cuirass, thigh-length leather boots, leather bands around hands for protection vs bow lacerations, horses leather and scale armor, cheap and easy to get. Will appear in great numbers on the battlefields.
2 - Nagy Székely - recurve bow and double headed axe with hooks on the tips, leather-covered steel-rimmed wooden shield. Black fur over mail armor, pointed steel wolf fur-rimmed helmet topped by horse hair plume - influenced by Rus, hun and magyar designs. Scale armored horses. These are among the magyar key troops with fairly low cost and good availability, and perform well early in the game but they'll be outmatched by the later western heavy cavalry. Better close combat than Néptörzs Magyar but slightly more expensive and slower moving. ZOR: approximately Pannonia area.
3 - Lovasság ból a Alföld - heavy lancers with sabre backup, round wooden leather-covered steel-rimmed shield, plate-mail, frankish helmet with nose guard, the rest including hand covered by chain mail. Horses armoured by scale and leather padding. Westernized unit without bow, expensive.
3 - Lovasság ból a Fejedelem - slightly lighter than Lovasság ból a Alföld and with bow and sabre instead. Very expensive. Served as princes and leader's guard among other things.
4 - Nemes ból a Palota - armed and armored like franks (lance and sword?), bring turul banner, very expensive, elite.


- Pata ból a Kende - General's bodyguard, plate and mail armor. Large magyar sabre, recurve bow and kite shield. Horses armored with chain-amil with white coat over. Officers unit should have plate mail armor and chainmail, steel frankish helmet with silver Turul crest on top. Horse with chain mail armor with white and black coat over.


I also need to find info on magyar pre-christian religion. Which gods did they worship during their pagan period?

[Incongruous]

Well they didn't really have gods, they worshipped, the sun, moon,sky and stars. I'll find the names by which the ancient Magyar called them and maybe you could just have somekind of shrine system. ~:)

[Ranika]

How many units are intended for a faction? Though I'm sure more homogenized types of factions could share more, but planning number and model allocation should be kept in mind to ensure there is all the model space you'll need.

[ScionTheWorm]

agree, but it don't seem like it's going to be a problem with 500 max... but when we get the unitlist finished we have to get some system of the models; which shall use the same model etc

[Ranika]

That's what I meant; plan for model space. Planning to fit things into models after the fact is much harder than planning after the models are all done.

[Incongruous]

Napsugár-This is the sun, one of the Magyar "gods", this god meant wether you'd have a good harves or a bad one.

Hónap-This is the moon. Theis was the god of the hunt, Although Magyars relied more and more on Agriculture, this god still captured their imagination.


Egek-Celestial spehere or sky.

Csillagzat- THis is star, the Magyar beleved that the starts were holes in the sky and allowed one to see the graet spirits.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Napsugár-This is the sun, one of the Magyar "gods", this god meant wether you'd have a good harves or a bad one.

Hónap-This is the moon. Theis was the god of the hunt, Although Magyars relied more and more on Agriculture, this god still captured their imagination.


Egek-Celestial spehere or sky.

Csillagzat- THis is star, the Magyar beleved that the starts were holes in the sky and allowed one to see the graet spirits.

Ok, then the shrine boni could be:
- Napsugár - +agriculture and +population growth and +happiness
- Hónap - +missile attack and +happiness
- Egek - ? and +happiness
- Csillagzat- ? and +happiness

Better ideas needed where I put the question marks. One of those could be the type of shrine with happiness only but instead more happiness than the others. Then we need to decide which of them will get two happiness boni and which one will get some other bonus, and what bonus that will be.

[GoreBag]

Just a question...

Is it possible to add the "academy" series of effects to other buildings? If so, perhaps largely upgraded temple buildings should have them.

[Rodion Romanovich]

@NeonGod: Yeah, that's a good idea. I haven't looked into it but it might be possible. Would add an interesting touch.

[Incongruous]

I just had to post this little fact, sorry if its tye wrong thread.
Did you know that Anglo-Saxon/Englisc swords were better than thos of the Samurai, no shit. They could cleave a man in two with one stroke. So you might want to give the more expensive swordsmen really awsome attack. ~:)

[Jarlabanke]

What exactly do you mean by "better"? As I've understood it the general consensus is that most swords were pretty much ideal for their specific purpouse, of course taking in to account the methods and material available to the smiths. So saying that this or that sword is outright better than the other just simply doesn't make sense.
As for cleaving a man, do you mean head to toe
or just right across the waist?
No doubt though the swords of this period was indeed very good workmanship as many smiths used so called pattern welding, a system similar to that used by the Japanese, which was later abandoned as getting the right type of steel was made easier by new inventions.
Further more the same type of swords were used pretty much all over northen europe, France and the british isles with the french being generally regarded as the best smiths.
Swords were however not really as unusual as people often make them out to be, with several thousands of finds in Scandinavia alone, and that taking into account that that we've thousands of unexcavated graves (though admittedly most probably belonging to farmers) and that the most common burial practice before the arival of christendom was inhumation.
I'd say one should be careful to give the sword to much damage in relation to other weapons especially the two handed dane axe, swordstroops should probably just have faster attack or better defence values than higher damage. Or if given higher damage, should lack the same anti armour capabilities as axes.

[Incongruous]

Ok, this was on a channel four programme call "Dark ages:Barbarians". On it they had a group of sword experts who clearly stated that Anglo-Saxon swords were far more superior to those of any other nation/pepole including the japanese i.e the Japanese method os sword making was inferior to that of the Anglo-Saxons, the Anglo-Saxon swords were the sharpest and strongest around.
Yes, they all said that the sword could cut a man down the middle.
If you don't beleive me you can get the programme out, its really really good. ~D

[ScionTheWorm]

Kingdom of Englisc will have some badass elite units...

I'm by the way doing progress in the unit modelling/skinning. 10 irish/scots almostdone. just to inform ~:) I guess I won't post them until the two factions are done though, maybe some teasers...

[Jarlabanke]

Did they mean superior at the time or through all time, as in Anglo-Saxon sword being superior to a 17th century Katana or just the ones made around AD 1000?
I must say I would be intrested in seeing the program as all temporary sources I've ever read praise the French swordsmiths as the best. I must say I'm curious
as to how you know how sharp a 1000 year old sword was when it was made, though I must say I've read about viking swords cutting paper to this day.

[King Ragnar]

Kingdom of Englisc will have some badass elite units...

I'm by the way doing progress in the unit modelling/skinning. 10 irish/scots almostdone. just to inform ~:) I guess I won't post them until the two factions are done though, maybe some teasers...


Teasers!!!! please ~D ~D

[Incongruous]

Yeah, please post some teasers. ~D

[Incongruous]

I have been thinking about this for ages. You know the Englisc knights, I reckon that due to Englands complete isolation from the contonetal feudal system they could have their own unique look, perhaps much like the Rohirim from LOTR, thats actually what tolkien thought Englisc knights would have looked like if william was defeated.

[skeletor]

i'm not really sure but that's probably true, but the Rohirim, and most of Rohan's soldiers is on the movies very vikinginspierd. I thought of having that style on the early Englisc, and maybe the welsh, along with the viking's raiders. And give the British ones more Frankish/Norman style knights for the later unit's.

The faudal system spread all across Europe, and i guess at one pint or an other, the brit's would have adopted it too anyway. It reached norway and sweeden eaven tho they allso were pretty isolated by sea. I think the adoption of these political systems has alot to do with the relations betwen kings and nobles all over Europe. It was infact normal for noble sons and princes to be raised by other kings/nobles. And it was a way to determin witch king was the most powerfull (The lesser king wold rais the child of mightyest one)

-Skel-

[Incongruous]

I doubt that the Englisc kings would have adopted the feudal system, Englands system was the best around and the richest, infact maybe they would have not even introduced knighthood as they already had the equivelant in Thegns.

[ScionTheWorm]

englisc ~D

[Incongruous]

Reply to Jarl.

No I believe that after the conquest AND "THE NORTHERN HOLOCAUST" the type of pattern welding that had made Englisc swords so deadly went out of use.

[Ranika]

I doubt that the Englisc kings would have adopted the feudal system, Englands system was the best around and the richest, infact maybe they would have not even introduced knighthood as they already had the equivelant in Thegns.

This is a very simplifying comment. England was a relatively poor, unknown place for a very long time (people knew it was there, but simply didn't care about it; it was a poor, rather useless place). The introduction of the feudal system improved their national taxation greatly (as the similar system employed by Saxons was rather ineffective at tax collection), and allowed the Norman lords to exploit the natural resources of England effectively. The Saxon system was inefficient in managing resources; many of the pre-Saxon Roman and Celtic-Briton mines fell into disuse, quarries were abandonned, etc., and they didn't have much of a solution for dealing with the problem. Calling that system the 'best around' is inaccurate, to put it lightly; it was a good militarist system that allowed one to assemble a large army, but was ineffective at harnessing what was present, and made forming a cohesive force difficult. The feudal method had the advantage of superior resource management, though, it had a slightly inverted militarist effect; assembling an army was hard because vassals had the ability to persue their own interests, though it also introduced a more professional army (in England, anyway) as feudal lords often afforded their soldiers better equipment (though it wasn't always the case, and levies were still used, but substantially less). All of the political systems in the islands and in northwest Europe had merits, but they all had problems; the Saxon system relied substantially on looting for a very long time; they had begun their incursions in Britain by raiding surrounding territories, and hadn't really outgrown the necessity to accomodate an amount of their wealth through terrorizing neighbors (though the Normans did much of the same thing, even to allies, but their government could fund itself easily without raiding).

As for knighthoods, that's a rather broad comment; every developed nation had an equivalent, even if they weren't feudalists. Gaels (who had a kind of representative government with a militarist-monarchy, and found feudalism to be an abhorrent concept) had Ridire/Rittire, the Welsh (with a type of elective monarchy) had Teulu, who filled the exact same role as a Thegn or a knight; it was simply a necessity of the period. One needed a military elite to successfully engage any war. Few actually had to 'introduce' knighthood; an example would be lowland Scotland. When they adopted Norman feudalism, the lesser chiefs and their retainers (the ridire) became knights. 'Adopting' knights as a military unit was never really much of an issue.

[Incongruous]

When William became the first Norman king of England he inherited the most sophisticated, richest and the best political system in Europe. If England was a nothing place then why bother conquering it. The fact is that England was known, rich and politicaly sound (this is by the time of Alfred the Great's final years).

As for the knight thing I was just questioning the name of Englisc knight and pointing out that instead of using the name knight, why not just use the Englisc equivilent of Thegn.

[Ranika]

I didn't say it was politically unsound. It was, however, a nothing-place. It was conquered for natural resources and a large populace; the natural resources made the island rich, but the Saxons were hardly using them to the extent the Normans did, and William didn't 'inherit' a political system, he installed Norman lords in the Norman feudal method. There's a difference between the region being rich and the owners being capable enough to utilize said wealth.

And England was a minor (at best) kingdom for centuries; they didn't become respected in any major sense until the late middle ages. They were pushed around by numerous major powers, and even minor powers, and only gained much respect through the Crusades, and even then they were generally ignored for a long time. Because of the outcome of history, and the natural wealth of Britain, one may overblow just how powerful the Saxon-English were; they were secondary though, minor, and because they were essentially raiders. Even after being essentially unified, they acted autonomously in numerous respects. Welsh documents point to alliances being formed with Saxon aristocracy, against other Saxons; that's not a sign of a stable system. Alfred the Great largely maintained Saxon unity by brute force, not political cohesion; he was a powerful leader, and good at organizing what he had. Enough to keep weaker leaders in line. However, to compare that to Normans, who had a very streamlined system, with very definite power balances, is a far cry. The Norman feudal system encouraged substantially more loyalty, and allowed one to keep the nobility loyal, and control a wide area easily.

[Incongruous]

I still stand by what I said, England was a rich kingdom. What countries pushed England around.

Back on topic, Englisc knights should not be used, but instead something like Thegns should, plus they should look different.

[Ranika]

Rich in what context? They controlled a comparatively large amount of land; they would have money solely based on the size of the population and taxation. However, smaller kingdoms were producing as much wealth with fewer people, and had more developed lands. The Normans (for example) were producing far more, despite having a smaller territory (and generally less rich).

And they were pushed around, depending on era, by the Welsh (their deals with Mercia generally reamed Mercia), by the Picts (smashed the Angles up badly, and forced them to relinquish much of northern Northumbria, which almost immediately fell under Scottish control), and by the Scots (similar early circumstances, as well as Robert the Bruce's royal screwjob on Edward the II and III), and Danes (the Danelaw).

The Saxons were poor, considering the size of their population and holdings; they might have had more money than X kingdom, but they should have had MORE, and would have had with better management. It was such a problem that Alfred the Great resorted to burhs to defend his land; why would he do that if he had the money for a proper defense? He lacked the money to defend everything he had with a real military, and had to resort to using peasant-built and maintained burhs to do so. He couldn't even afford to pay those who built the burhs. Instead, he had to guarantee them plots in the burhs. If he had properly been exploiting the resources England provided (as the Normans did), he could've had proper forts instead; the Normans clearly did better with the land developmentally than the Saxons had.

Isn't to say Alfred was a bad king (clearly, he wasn't), but the Saxon governmental model ensures much of what went wrong economically, really wasn't his fault. So many mines and quarries were unused because of local powers that just didn't see it necessary; they were happy just getting by, and paying their tributes, and offering soldiers. In fact, utilizing their full local resources would probably attract unwanted attention in additional tributes being required, or invaders. Alfred couldn't be held to concern that a tin mine isn't being utilized; the Saxon model doesn't tend to address those things, and leaves more freedom of those decisions in local hands. The Norman model allows one to essentially force their lords to develop everything they can, and pay a larger scutage, increasing the royal treasury substantially more than one could get on the looser Saxon model.

[ScionTheWorm]

they were pushed around alot. Which country would you compare their wealth with?

[Ranika]

It's difficult to find a proper comparison, because we rarely have very many good records in terms of accounting from the period, so largely we need to go on what exactly they were capable of. In this case, defenses; Alfred was so strained that the only thing he could do to secure his borders was give peasants land in exchange for them building burhs. That's a bad fiscal state. A smaller country can have a better fiscal state and essentially be 'rich', even if they're making less money than a larger kingdom.

[skeletor]

I agree with you on the name part Bopa, since we are using lokal names on most of the unit's, this should allso be done for the "knights".

As Ranika wrote, the Scot's called them ridire.

In Scandinavian languages, they are called ridder (i think thats why their refered to as viking raider in English) or knekt (but that name is probably adopted from the word knight)

In germany: Ritter

As Bopa wrote the English factions called them Theng.

In france, they were called chevalier. (Thus this word is not recorded until the 1400's)

Byt then we don't get the chivaleric knight. I might be way off here, but i think the name chivaleric knight is produced by games. I have no idea what the HRE,

But imo, we should use the native names as mutch as possible, so:

Danes: ridder (the other factions didn't use shock cavalery until 1200's)

Scots: Ridire

English factions: Theng

Frankish: chevalier

HRE: ritter

This is a sol,ution, or simply call them all knight's.

-Skel-

[Ranika]

The Scottish and Irish Ridire would need a different model anyway, so I don't see why giving them the appropriate name would be a problem. There are tons of unit spaces too (500), so you can always use some of those spaces as additional entries for the appropriate titles of the different units, and vary their stats; I'm sure a lot need different models anyway (as elites rarely looked the same, since they were the height of varied military cultural traditions), so may as well use the proper names.

[ScionTheWorm]

I don't think model space will be an issue. who knows, maybe BI will increase number of models? Anyway, with vikings and gaels sharing lots of units, I doubt it will be a problem. One thing to remember is that a faction with a lots of horses needs different models for each horse. Off topic here though. When looking beyond the maximum number of models, the problem disappears totally with 500 max.

I vote native names. By the way, the native name for swedish nobles is actually "skinkerytter"

[Ranika]

There are 255 models, and 500 unit spaces; it's important to note that siege engines do not count against the 255 model count. With so many shared models (such as the Irish and Scots sharing nearly everything) there should be plenty of models to do unique 'knights', and more than enough unit spaces to have varying entries for different names.

[skeletor]

I vote native names. By the way, the native name for swedish nobles is actually "skinkerytter"

Ditto, and how could i forget about the skinkerytter's, their just as legendary as the berzerk's and the jomsvikings.

Can you add them to the techthree?

-Skel-

[ScionTheWorm]

Skinkerytter (Swedish heavy cavalry with tall iron helmets, clubs, and their special shaped shields called skinkeskjold)
Description - Swedish skinkerytters are some of the most feared warriors of scandinavia - they are true knights of the norse world. Armed to the teeth and with their fancy banner with all the colors of the rainbow, they rout hundreds just by turning up for the battle.

legio will add this to the tech tree when he comes back.

[skeletor]

I allso read somewere that they were masters in using leatherwhips in battle, and allso used black leather masks as cover for their faces.

I'm soooo looking forward to model these guys.

[ScionTheWorm]

I think we can use the same model for the infamous danish horebukk, zor unit in southern denmark. should be unmounted though

[Incongruous]

To Ranika.
What you said about Mercia and Northumbria is fine, but uh, I'm talking about the Kingdom of the Englisc whose first king was Alfred the great, Wales would never of been able to push this kingdom around. The only people that did were the latter Vikings and that only lasted a generation. As for Englands wealth, its coffers were huge, The Englisc kingdom (thats right, not the saxon, jutish or anglian kingdoms, the Englisc kingdom) was a wealthy .

As for the names its Thegn not Theng, haha, man that sounds funny, Theng, Thang, Thing.

[Ranika]

The 'Englisc' are the Saxons for all purposes here; you can keep ranting about their flat material wealth or approach it from a logical stand point. If they were truly wealthy, they would've built forts, not burhs, to defend their borders. The Welsh kingdoms had better developed land, and had border forts; they were comparatively richer and better managed monetarily. Just saying "The Englisc had more money" doesn't actually make them richer; it's a matter of comparative earnings and loss. You've given no argument to what exactly makes them 'richer', except that you say so, even though the facts of the matter point to them being so poor that they had to give peasants land just to defend themselves. That isn't a sign of a wealthy kingdom at all, it points to a very struggling kingdom. For example, if I have a square kilometer of land, and I'm making two pieces of currency off of it a day, and my neighbor has four square km of land, and he's only making one piece of currency off of each region, he is comparatively poor than me, despite having more money, because my lands are making more money. The same problem existed in England. Undeveloped land was yielding little of real value. The only benefit they had was a lot of land (compared to their neighbors) and many citizens. It earned them more overall money, but they were poorly managed and could barely afford the basic necessities to keep their kingdom in order. It doesn't matter how much money they had, it matters that they didn't have enough money for a kingdom of their size and population.

For example; Leinster in Ireland was a, by your definition, 'rich' kingdom in the 700s. They had more flat monetary gain than near all of the other Irish kingdoms combined (as well as numerous foreign kingdoms). However, they also had a large population to deal with, and difficult to defend terrain. They couldn't afford to effectively defend themselves because they didn't have ENOUGH money to properly defend a population of their size. Compare to Connacht, which had a much smaller population and substantially less income; Connacht also has vastly easier to defend terrain, and it was cheaper to do so. Connacht managed to successfully defend itself far better than Leinster, despite making much less flat wealth. They didn't need to make as much.

England needed to be making much more money than it was to appropriately defend itself (the creation of the Danelaw alone proves they couldn't truly afford a defense, and probably explains why they gave up so much land; it wasn't monetarily sound to keep much of it). England was rich in the same way most corporate executives are; a great deal of assets, but little liquid substance, and, thus, little room to manuever. They'd be 'rich' only from a certain perspective; one that ignores how bloated they were and how much more money they needed to be making.

[Incongruous]

England needed to be making much more money than it was to appropriately defend itself (the creation of the Danelaw alone proves they couldn't truly afford a defense, and probably explains why they gave up so much land; it wasn't monetarily sound to keep much of it) :laugh4: :no:

I'm just going to add a timeline in and some maps ok.

AD


899 - Death of King Alfred the Great of Wessex & All England. He is succeeded by his son, Edward.

901 - King Edward the Elder of Wessex takes the title "King of the Angles and Saxons". His mother, Dowager-Queen Ealhswith, founds the Nunnaminster at Winchester and retires into a religious life there. Death of King Aethelstan (alias Guthrum) of East Anglia. He is succeeded by his son, Eric.

902 - The Norsemen are expelled from Dublin. After a brief foray into Seisyllwg, a group, under one Ingimund, settle in the Wirral with the agreement of Lady Aethelflaed of the Mercians.

905 - The Norse settler, Ingimund, and his men revolt against the Mercians and try to take the city of Chester. They are beaten off.

907 - Lady Aethelflaed of the Mercians refortifies Chester against Viking attacks. King Edward the Elder of England founds Romsey Abbey. Ealdorman Aethelmar founds Cerne Abbey on the site of the hermitage of St. Edwold.

909 - Death of Bishop Asser of Sherborne. The See is divided and the new Bishoprics created at Wells, Crediton and Ramsbury & Sonning. King Edward the Elder of England and his sister, Princess Aethelflaed of Mercia, raid Danish East Anglia and bring back the body of St. Oswald in triumph. Aethelflaed presents it to her foundation in Gloucester.

910 - King Edward the Elder of England attacks the Joint-Kings Halfdan II, Eowils Ragnarson of Norse York. All three monarchs are killed at the Battle of Tettenhall and their kingdom crippled. Ragnall I Ivarrson, grandson of Ivarr the Boneless, seizes the throne after years of roaming the Western Seas.

911 - Death of Lord Aethelred II of the Mercians. He is buried in St. Oswald's Priory, Gloucester and is succeeded by his wife, Princess Aethelflaed of Wessex, as Lady of the Mercians. Her brother, King Edward the Elder of England insists on taking control of London and Oxford.

912 - The increasing thread of Viking invasions encourages Lady Aethelflaed of the Mercians to expand her policy of building defensive burghs within her kingdom.

913 - King Edward the Elder of England recaptures Essex from the Danes. Death of High-Reeve Eadulf of Bamburgh. He is succeeded by his son, Ealdred I, who is almost immediately driven out by King Ragnall I Ivarrson of Norse York. Ealdred flees to the Court of King Constantine II of Alba.

914 - High-Reeve Ealdred I of Bamburgh persuades King Constantine II of Alba to invade Norse controlled Bernicia in an attempt to restore his position. The Vikings defeat the Scots at the First Battle of Corbridge. Other Vikings harry the Welsh Coast and move up the Severn. They capture Bishop Cyfeilliog of Ergyng, but are driven out by Mercian levies from Hereford and Gloucester.

c.915 - The body of St. Edmund of East Anglia is transferred to Bury St. Edmunds.

916 - English raiders attack the court of King Tewdr of Brycheiniog at Llangorse and make off with the Queen and thirty-three of her courtiers.

917 - Lady Aethelflaed of the Mercians cements an alliance with Kings Constantine II of Alba and Constantine mac Aed of Strathclyde against Norse York. She captures the city of Derby, while her brother, King Edward the Elder of England, takes Towcester. Aethelflaed's armies also ravage Brycheiniog in revenge for the killing of the, now unknown, Abbot Ecgberht.

918 - Death of King Eric of East Anglia. East Anglia brought under Wessex rule. High-Reeve Ealdred I of Bamburgh again persuades King Constantine II of Alba to help him reclaim his position in Bernicia. They mount a second invasion of his now Norse controlled lands. The Vikings defeat the Scots again at the Second Battle of Corbridge, but take heavy casualties themselves. Ealdred probably manages to retake most of Northern Bernicia. Lady Aethelflaed of the Mercians begins to intrigue with diaffected factions within the Norse Kingdom of York and peacefully overruns the Borough of Leicester. Her brother, King Edward the Elder of England, takes Stamford by force. King Idwal Foel of Gwynedd and King Hywel Dda and Prince Clydog of Deheubarth submit to the overlordship of King Edward. Death of Lady Aethelflaed of the Mercians at Tamworth. She is buried in St. Oswald's Priory in Gloucester and nominally succeeded by her daughter, the twenty year old Princess Aelfwynn.

919 - Lady Aelfwynn of the Mercians is brought to the court of her maternal uncle, King Edward the Elder of England, and deprived of her authority in Mercia. King Edward formally annexes the country. The end of independent Mercian rule.

920 - High-Reeve Ealdred I of Bamburgh and his brother, Uhtred, submit to the overlordship of King Edward the Elder of England. Death of King Ragnall I Ivarrson of Norse York. He is succeeded by his brother, King Sigtrygg Caech of Norse Dublin.

924 - Death of King Edward the Elder of England at Farndon-upon-Dee. He is succeeded by his son, Athelstan, who becomes King of Wessex and effective ruler of most of England. His appointment is opposed by one Alfred of unknown origin.

c.924 - St. Eadburga, daughter of King Edward the Elder of England, enters the Nunnaminster at Winchester, at an extremely young age.

925 - King Athelstan is finally crowned at Kingston-on-Thames. He founds Bury St. Edmunds Abbey around the shrine of St. Edmund of East Anglia.

926 - Athelstan annexes Northumbria, and forces the kings of Wales, Strathclyde, the Picts, and the Scots to submit to him

927 - The border between England and Wales is set at the River Wye when Kings Hywel Dda of Deheubarth and Owain of Glywysing & Gwent submit to the overlordship of King Athelstan of England at Hereford. Death of King Sigtrygg Caech of Norse York. King Athelstan of England claims his kingdom and receives the submission of High-Reeve Ealdred I of Bamburgh. Practicalities probably actually meant that ealdred looked more towards King Constantine II of Alba as his overlord.

930 - Death of High-Reeve Ealdred I of Bamburgh. He is succeeded by his son, Osulf. High-Reeve Osulf attests a number of Wessex charters during his reign showing his close association with the English Court.

931 - Kings Morgan Hen of Glywysing & Gwent, Hywel Dda of Deheubarth and Idwal Foel of Gwynedd submit to the overlordship of King Athelstan of England and attend him at court.

933 - Prince Aelfweard, brother of King Athelstan of England, is drowned en route to France and buried at Saint-Bertin.

934 - King Tewdr of Brycheiniog attends the court of King Athelstan of England and signs English Land Charters. Kings Hywel Dda of Deheubarth, Idwal Foel of Gwynedd and Morgan Mwynfawr of Morgannwg are compelled to accompany Athelstan on his campaign against King Constantine II of Alba.

937 - Battle of Brunanburh: Athelstan defeats alliance of Scots, Strathclyde Britons and Vikings, and takes the title of "King of all Britain"

c.937 - King Idwal Foel of Gwynedd distances himself from his English overlord.

939 - King Athelstan founds Muchelney Abbey. Death of King Athelstan at Gloucester. He is buried at Malmesbury Abbey and succeeded by his half-brother, Edmund the Magnificent.

942 - Kings Idwal Foel of Gwynedd openly rebels against the overlordship of the English monarchy. Both he and Llewelyn of Powys are killed fighting English armies.

945 - St. Dunstan becomes Abbot of Glastonbury.

946 - Edred, younger brother of Edmund, King of England (to 955); Dunstan is named his chief minister.

949 - King Hywel Dda of Deheubarth, Gwynedd & Powys attends the court of King Eadred of England.

954 - Death of King Eric Bloodaxe of Norse York. King Eadred of Wessex becomes King of All England. High-Reeve Osulf of Bamburgh is appointed Ealdorman of Northumbria.

955 - Kings Iago of Gwynedd, Owain of Deheubarth and Morgan Hen of Glywysing & Gwent attend the court of King Eadred of England. Edwy, son of Edmund, King of England (to 959).

c.955 - Archbishop Oda of Canterbury rebuilds Canterbury Cathedral.

956 - St. Dunstan is sent into exile by King Edwy.

957 - Mercians and Northumbrians rebel against King Edwy.

959 - Edgar the Peaceable, younger brother of Edwy, King of England (to 975).

960 - Death of Princess Eadburga, aunt of King Edgar the Peaceable of England, at the Nunnaminster in Winchester where is as a nun. She is buried there and later revered as a saint.

961 - Tavistock Abbey is founded by Ealdorman Ordgar of Devon.

963 - Death of Ealdorman Osulf of Northumbria. He is succeeded by his son, Waltheof I. Death of Bishop Brihthelm of Winchester. He is succeeded by St. Aethelwold, Abbot of Abingdon.

964 - Foundation of Milton Abbey.

966 - Re-foundation of Peterborough (Medshamstead) Abbey as a Benedictine Monastery by Bishop Aethelwold of Winchester.

967 - Re- foundation of Romsey Abbey by King Edgar of England and Ealdorman Aethelwold of Wessex, with St. Merewenna as Abbess.

969 - Foundation of Ramsey Abbey.

970 - Re-foundation of Pershore Abbey. It acquires relics of St. Eadburga from Winchester.

971 - St. Aethelwold, Bishop of Winchester, instigates massive building operations at Winchester. He extends the Old Minster westward with two enormous apses and a crossing tower to cover St. Swithun's external tomb and make it the centre of a 'shrine-church'. It supposedly rains there for "forty days and forty nights". Foundation of Crowland Abbey.

973 - After his coronation, King Edgar of England marches his army north to Chester. His navy meets him there via the Irish Sea. This show of strength persuades the Northern Kings to submit to his overlordship. Legend says he is rowed across the Dee by Kings Kenneth of Alba, Malcolm of the Cumbrians, Magnus of Man & the Isles, Donald of Strathclyde, Iago of Gwynedd, Princes Hywel of Gwynedd, Ithel and Siferth (the latter two of unknown origin). The Council of Winchester calls for English monastic reform and draws up a code of practice known as the Regularis Concordia. Foundation of Thorney Abbey.

974 - King Edgar gives English help to Prince Hywel in ousting his uncle, King Iago of Gwynedd from his kingdom. The tomb of St. Swithun is opened at Winchester Old Minster and his body dismembered. His head shrine is placed in the sacristy and his major shrine behind the high altar.

975 - Edward the Martyr, son of Edgar, King of England (to 978).

c.977 - St. Aethelwold, Bishop of Winchester, rebuilds the western end of Winchester Old Minster, with twin towers and no apses.

978 - Edward the Martyr murdered at Corfe Castle upon the orders of his step-mother; Aethelred II, the Unready (ill-counselled), younger brother of Edward the Martyr, King of England (to 1016). English troops are deployed on the Lleyn Peninsula on behalf of King Hywel of Gwynedd in order to prevent his uncle, Iago, invading with Viking allies from Dublin. St. Dunstan completes the cloisteral buildings and his western extensions to the Abbey Church of St. Augustine's Abbey, Canterbury. The church is rededicated to St. Peter, St. Paul and St. Augustine.

980 - The Danes renew their raids on England attacking Chester and Southampton. Manx Vikings led by King Godfred I ally themselves with Prince Custennin of Gwynedd and raid Anglesey and the Lleyn Peninsula. Custennin is killed. Foundation of Amesbury Abbey.

983 - Ealdorman Aelfhere of Mercia allies himself with King Hywel of Gwynedd and together they attack the lands of Prince Einion of Deheubarth.

984 - Death of Bishop Aethelwold of Winchester. He is buried in Winchester Old Minster and later revered as a saint.

985 - The English kill King Hywel of Gwynedd by treachery.

987 - Re-foundation of Cerne Abbey.

c.988 - Manx Vikings, under King Godfred I, ravage Anglesey.

991 - Battle of Maldon: Byrhtnoth of Essex is defeated by Danish invaders; Aethelred II buys off the Danes with 10,000 pounds of silver (Danegeld).

992 - Aethelred makes a truce with Duke Richard I of Normandy.

993 - King Aethelred the Unready appoints Aelfhelm as Ealdorman of Northumbria in place of the aging Waltheof I. Re-foundation of Sherborne Abbey.

994 - Danes under Sweyn and Norwegians under Olaf Trygvesson sail up river Thames and besiege London; bought off by Aethelred.

995 - Uhtred, son of Ealdorman Waltheof I of Northumbria, establishes an episcopal see at Durham and moves the monastic community of Chester-Le-Street there. Foundation of Evesham Abbey.

c.1000 - Medshamstead is made into a Burgh. It soon becomes known as St. Peter's Burgh (Peterborough).

1003 - Sweyn and an army of Norsemen land in England and wreak a terrible vengeance.

1006 - Ealdorman Aelfhelm of Northumbria falls foul of King Aethelred the Unready who has him murdered.

1007 - Aethelred buys two years' peace from the Danes for 36,000 pounds of silver. Uhtred, son of Ealdorman Waltheof I of Northumbria, is appointed to his father's old position.

1011 - Thorkell the Tall and his brother, Hemming, plunder Canterbury, burn the city and the Cathedral, and make off with Archbishop Alphege to Greenwich. St. Alphage refuses to be ransomed and the Vikings throw ox-bones at him in a drunken orgee and kill him.

1012 - The Danes sack Canterbury: bought off for 48,000 pounds of silver.

1013 - King Sweyn Forkbeard of Denmark lands in England and is proclaimed king; Aethelred II the Unready flees to Normandy.

c.1013 - Archbishop Lyfing probably restores Canterbury Cathedral, adding porticus towers and a massive 'westwerk'.

1014 - The English recall Aethelred II the Unready as King on the death of King Sweyn Forkbeard; the latter's son, Canute (II), retreats to Denmark and turns his attention to annexing Norway.

1015 - King Canute II of Denmark & Norway again invades England; war between Danes and Saxons.

1016 - Edmund Ironside, son of Aethelred II the Unready of England, becomes King. He and King Canute II of Denmark & Norway meet on the Isle of Alney near Deerhurst and agree to divide the kingdom: Canute holds the north and Edmund Wessex; Edmund is assassinated; Canute takes the throne as King Canute the Great of England.

1017 - King Canute the Great divides England into four earldoms.

1019 - King Canute the Great marries the Dowager-Queen Emma, widow of Aethelred II. Canute gives the relics of St. Wigstan to Evesham Abbey. They are translated from Repton.

1026 - King Canute the Great's steward, Orc, founds Abbotsbury Abbey.

1035 - Death of Canute the Great of England, Denmark & Norway: his possessions are divided; Harold I Harefoot, becomes King of England (to 1040).

1040 - Hardicanute, King of England (to 1042); he dies of drink.

1042 - Edward the Confessor, son of Aethelred II, King of England (to 1066).

1046 - Sweyn, son of Earl Godwin of Wessex, attempts to marry Abbess Eadgifu of Leominster.

c.1050 - Abbot Wulfric of St. Augustine's Abbey, Canterbury embarks on a flamboyant programme of building-work at his abbey. He adds a further western chapel and bell-tower to the monastic complex and begins to join St. Mary's to the Abbey Church with a huge rotunda based on that at St. Benigne at Dijon.

1051 - Earl Godwin exiled (until 1052): he returns with a fleet and wins back his power.

1052 - Edward the Confessor founds Westminster Abbey, near London.

1053 - Death of Godwin: his son Harold succeeds him as Earl of Wessex. Earl Harold of Wessex begins a programme of building work at Waltham Abbey which includes the addition of a huge eastern crossing.

1055 - Harold's brother Tostig becomes Earl of Northumbria.

1058 - The See of Sherborne is joined to that of Ramsbury & Sonning.

1063 - Harold and Tostig subdue Wales.

1064 - Harold is shipwrecked in Normandy; while there, he swears a solemn oath to support William of Normandy's claim to England.

1065 - Northumbria rebels against Tostig, who is exiled


http://www.anglo-saxons.net/images/submap900.jpg


http://www.anglo-saxons.net/images/mapAlfred.jpg


http://www.anglo-saxons.net/images/mapAthelstan.jpg

So we are going to give the Englisc something other than knights?

[skeletor]

Bopa, you must allso remember the great expences they had with the standing army of the Fyrd. About 60 000 (I think, not sure) men is a great expence compared to the vikings who often fought on their own initiative, seeking loot and randsomes. Allso, being in a defencive position is mutch more expencive then beeing on the offence.

This doesn't make them poor, but their expences, compared to their rivals mutch higher.

I'm don't actually care what we call their cavalery, but i vote for using their native names. Im happy as long as they get some heavy hardpunching cavalery later in their campaign.

-Skel-

[ScionTheWorm]

shouldn't we have brothel in the tech tree..? maybe not for reqruiting spy but rather an unique unit or something... (ie. danish horebukk)
~:handball:

[skeletor]

LOL, this is insane...

Have you seen how many Viking units there are?

javelinmen, bondi, militia bowmen, bowmen, militia archers, viking archers, birkebeiner archers, crossbowmen, spear militia, viking spearmen, geirrmen, militia swordscavalry, militia spearcavalry, raider cavalry, viking cavalry, danish knights, landsmenn, karls, gestr, viking huskarls, birkebeiners, jarl's hird, joms vikings, royal hird, ballista, mangonel.

Thats 25 unit's..

I'll say we cut:

bowmen + milita bowmen = bowmen (hunters)

bondi + spearmilitia = bondi

Royal hird + viking huskarls = viking huskarls

viking cavalry + raider cavalry + militia swordscavalry = raider cavalry
--------------

That leavs 20 unit's, more then most vanilla factions

-Skel-

[ScionTheWorm]

but won't these be spread over four factions? if maybe 15 is shared, there is 3-4 uniques per faction.

[Incongruous]

Yeah, this is a disproportionate amount of units dudes.
Definatley need to revamp the list methinks.

[GoreBag]

25 units for four factions doesn't seem like too many to me.

[Incongruous]

No but most of those units are going to be shared by those factions.

[Ranika]

Maybe 25 units then for each of the 'cultures' then? Not the technical in game cultures, but things like 'Gaels' and 'Norse' and such, just to give an idea of where to put said units; considering there are a lot more homogenized, similar cultures in this mod than in vanilla Rome, so it'd be easier to share more unit models, so model space shouldn't be too much of a problem.

[ScionTheWorm]

Actually I wonder what cultures we'll have? I would think
Barbarian = Norse (nordmannaland, danmark, sveariket,rus)
Roman = Catholic (can we only assign 3 + 1 factions to this?). Because of restrictions, catholics would be HRE, French, Loth, Papals, Normandie, Asturia, Welsh and Saxons? Or should welsh be gaelic and saxons norse maybe?
Eastern = Steppe (Bulgars, magyar, Khazar(?))
Greek = Greek (Byzantine)
Carthagian = Muslim (abbasid, al andalus)
And if this is an own culture:
Ptolemaic = Gaelic - if not, gaelic has to be norse or catholic. (alba, eire)

When it comes to BI, I doubt there will be more cultures than this but I've got no clue.

I think around 15 units per faction would be decent (15*20 = 300), allthough this is a hell of a lot of work for two skinners/modellers. So approximatly this could be the case:

Norse: 15-20 shared units (ok I agree this is a lot, but we do focus on vikings), maybe 2-3 uniques
Catholic: 10-15 shared?
Steppe: Should have around 15 shared I think
Greek: lots of zor, counting around 20
Muslim: should be 10-15 shared
Gaelic: I think 10-15 shared

Oh by the way, when I say shared I mean on model and stat basis, not skins. I may have misunderstood.

[skeletor]

Most of the unit's i have mentioned is lesser unit's for all factions. I fou see the techtree, all unit's, with ekcept birkebeiners, jomsvikings, and dannish knight, are used for all factions. Rus is not mentioned, but with the scandinavian ones it's 75 unit's. With rus, it will be 100 unit's. :help:
Legio have only specified birkebeiners, jomsvikings, and dannish knight as zor or factionspecific unit's.

Allso the fact that vikings, who didn't use cavalery in battle have 5 difrent units is a bit silly. All their cavalery is supposed to be rather weak. So having 4 difrent types of poor cavalery is a bi too mutch. Having some very light spearcavalery, and then you get the bether viking cavalery (raider cavalery) .
Then the danes get their knights as the latest one.

Allso having a militia archer, then archer, thats two allmost identical unit's.
I'd say they can get the regular archer as the first base archer, then get vikingarchers, and at the en the crossbowmen + the birkebeiner in the zor system.

Bondis were usually spear militia, so thats the same as making 2 diffrent unit's of the same kind. I personally never use the Roman townwatch unit, unless i restrict myself from using peasants as garison in roman campaigns. So having only one "crappy on the battlefield, but good for garison" i'd say is enough.

Keaping all these unit's for all factions will probably mean AI large stack of militiaunit's, instead of apropriate viking armys.

Ofcourse, if alot of these unit's are for only one or some of the viking factions, its reasonable. But then i wold like to know witch..
~:cheers:

Any other thoughts on this, or what do you think of my cutting?

-Skel-

[ScionTheWorm]

when it's like this (75 and 100 units!), I think your cutting might be for the best, I totally agree with the cavalry.

Btw, I remember I saw some excellent skins for Geirmen at the NTW forum...

[skeletor]

[QUOTE=ScionTheWorm]Actually I wonder what cultures we'll have? I would think
Barbarian = Norse (nordmannaland, danmark, sveariket,rus)
Roman = Catholic (can we only assign 3 + 1 factions to this?). Because of restrictions, catholics would be HRE, French, Loth, Papals, Normandie, Asturia, Welsh and Saxons? Or should welsh be gaelic and saxons norse maybe?
Eastern = Steppe (Bulgars, magyar, Khazar(?))
Greek = Greek (Byzantine)
Carthagian = Muslim (abbasid, al andalus)
And if this is an own culture:
Ptolemaic = Gaelic - if not, gaelic has to be norse or catholic. (alba, eire)QUOTE]

Here we must probably see what BI will look like, we might be more free there.
But if we uses the RTW faction's, we must see who is most unique.

in RTW there are 6 barbarian, 3 eastern, 1 egyptian, 4 greek, and 3(4) roman, 2 african, and 1 egyptian(if these are not 3 african?, but i think egypt its unique)

So using 4 greeks for the 4 vikings makes sence. (Norse religion)

Allso using the 6 barbarians as Normandie, Asturia, Welsh, Saxons, Scots, Eire wold be best. I know there are alot of diffrence in these factions, but their all (semi)christians, And can use the same building models.

Using the 3 roman slots as the uber christian Frankish factions including the senate as papal state, reflects the breakup of the huge Frankish empire.

We have 3 eastern, and that works fine for the 3 steppefactions. (we might get religous problems here.)

The one egyptian faction should be used for byzantium, as the most unique faction.

Then the 2 last slot's goes to abbasid, and al-andalus with commun muslim religion, and arabicstyle buildings. (If their not bound to share buildings with Byzantium, thats a problem.)

-Skel-

[Incongruous]

Did you guys know that there will be two tech-trees for each faction?
One is Christian the other Pagan, wow, this is a cool feature, we could use it.

[ScionTheWorm]

oooh nice.. we should indeed use it

[GoreBag]

I don't think lumping the Gaels in with the Normans is a good idea.

[skeletor]

Probably not... Their culture is probably more similar to the vikings on the startdate.

-Skel-

[skeletor]

when it's like this (75 and 100 units!), I think your cutting might be for the best, I totally agree with the cavalry.

Btw, I remember I saw some excellent skins for Geirmen at the NTW forum...

Oki, alot of the lesser unit's will look very similar for the diffrent viking factions. But i'm not really sure if i should make colored serks(RTW romans), or only make diffrent small parts (shield, belts, patterns on clothing) colored so that you can see the diffrence in battle- Any ideas?

I want them to look pretty mutch the same with just parts colored.

Anyway, did you mean this geirman?

https://img166.imageshack.us/img166/6664/post46fg.png

I haven't modelled this, only skinned, so the noseguard is only panted on the nose.

I will probably use some of this on the finished geirr man, but he needs some more work.

-Skel-

[Ranika]

If there's any culture the Gaels can be compared to in the period, it's definitely the vikings; one of the reasons vikings in Ireland integrated so well is largely because of large cultural similarities; foremost being warrior cultures; every culture had warrior castes, and could be argued as 'warrior cultures', but few were so prone to romanticize the warrior class. Further, they were similar in structure of their towns to an extent, and it's actually sometimes hard to say what the Gaelic-Irish/Scots adopted and what the Norse-Irish/Scots adopted, considering so much of what was already present in their cultures existed; a good example is the ridire on foot; Gaelic ridire existed for centuries before the vikings invaded, but are actually very similar to huskarls, or numerous types of weapons that had similar shapes and designs that had been prevalent for decades, if not centuries. That isn't to say they're culturally identical by any stretch; the differences are huge. However, certain aspects, including important philosophical aspects (such as the importance of the warrior class) are similar; more similar than they'd be to others.

[Krusader]

About religious buildings:

Instead of giving the Christian factions one religious building, why not 3 or 4?
Although Christianity only has 1 God, the Churches were dedicated to saints and passages from the Bible (although mostly in the High medieval age, by my sources). Maybe something to consider? Like a Church to St.George, which gives Morale bonus, as he was a soldier in his 'mortal life'. Others could be a Church to the Virgin Mary which could give other bonuses.

One thing I personally enjoy in R:TW is the different temples to choose from, and to decide what effects I want in this and that city.

And about Muslim mosques. If you go for 5-level mosques here's an idea:
Minaret -> Mosque (arabic Masjid) -> Large Mosque -> Alijama (or Grand Mosque) -> Legendary Alijama

Muslims should have access to public baths as well as they became widely popular.

If you want, I could write up religious buildings types, descriptions and bonuses for you!

[skeletor]

Thats a great idea Krusader, the diffrent chappels and monasterys could be dedicated to diffrent saints. If your a frankish faction, building monasterys to St. John, or St. Stephen, you could sommun Knight Hospitallers..

There are plenty of diffrent saints to choose from, and it gives the game a more religous aspect.

You could allso do the same with the muslims, and their diffrent imams, like Ali aso.

Same goes for the Norse, they could have "hovs" for diffrent gods giving diffrent abilitys.

-Skel-

[GoreBag]

Like a Church to St.George, which gives Morale bonus, as he was a soldier in his 'mortal life'.

You mean "dragon slayer", right? In any case, that's a really good idea.

[Krusader]

You mean "dragon slayer", right? In any case, that's a really good idea.

He seems to have been a Roman soldier in the service of Emperor Diocletian who ordered Christianity persecuted. When he refused, and told the Emperor he was Christian himself, he was tortured and then executed.

And he's also the dragon slayer, which secular historians say is a pre-Christian tale, which was adapted to Christianity.

All this comes from my head, so I'll try to find some sources.

[Steppe Merc]

I know the Rus associated many Christian saints with their pagan gods. The Byzantines also had "military saints", sometimes painting their shields with a particular saint.

[Steppe Merc]

There should be an Alan unit, as they still were kicking around pretty strongly at this time. I think they were Christian. Also, the Khazars recruited many Muslim mercanaries from Khawarzim.

Magyars, Bulgars and possibely Khazars should be able to recruit Slavic infantry as auxalries.
What time does the game start? The Pechnegs could be included, though I think they're too late...

[Meneldil]

The Pecheneg are a rebelious faction I think.
I think the Rus also hired some slavs in their armies too, but I might be wrong on this.

[Incongruous]

Yes there should be Slavic units but only as an AOR.

[Krusader]

Muslims:

A muslim market is called medina

Muslims have madrasas which are Islamic schools. Some ideas for Abbasid & Al-Andalus tech trees.

[Devercia]

just some random ideas( i dont know if they are already here, as i am just passing by)


I like the idea of plenty of low level militia types, recrutable with little to no buildings

poachers: would replace the "militia archers" most people are refuring to. unskilled in archery, but can hide in grass. fast
"in exchange for pardon and licence to hunt, poachers are recruted to serve as ambushers and light archers"


peasant levies: like peasasnts but a little more combat effectiveness(just replace them with these)


I would like to see low base farming levels, and increased building time, lower exspence of farming buildings.(the saxons were known for crop rotation)

[Incongruous]

You should go look in our Minor Adjustments thread. ~:)

[Ranika]

An error of mine; Constantine of Scotland did use Pict levies with arcuballista. He sent many in support of an Irish ally; so, the Pict levies for Scotland should include Pict 'crossbows'; I updated my proposed unit list, which I'll just repost here, so you don't need to go back for it:

The crossbow (as the medieval weapon) was not used by the Picts. They did use a copy of the arcuballista, but it was poor quality, and the Scots didn't use it, but Pictish levies did. Highlanders don't emerge until about 1160 as a distinct group apart from lowlanders.

I'd recommend, then, only sharing units between the Irish and Scots; not allowing them to have other 'shared' units. They simply would look improper in a Gaelic army. If you're going to do the two factions, may as well do them right; you don't need use everything listed, but, these are my suggestions. A general Gaelic army would be composed of (this'll be followed with appropriate uniques for Scots and Irish), largely;

Gaelic units (Gaels organize in multiples of 5, along the line of 25-50-100-150-200; keep in mind for choosing numbers of men in a unit);
Kernbannal ('Levy Troop'; unarmored club or spear militia with darts, fight as skirmishers) -
Description - The hierarchy of Gaelic societies is a bit unusual; it lacks feudal nobles and the subsequent varying ranks of nobles and peasants. However, Kerns tend to fall near the bottom. Without much money or inherent fighting ability, they cannot afford good equipment, nor are they likely to be sponsored by an arras (aristocrat). However, that matters little. Most of the time, a kern is just a man called up to form a militia in times of strife, and fight with whatever is on hand; usually hunting spears or solid clubs, accompanied by light, small javelins, often called darts.

Soikernbannal ('Levy Archer Troop'; only Gaelic archers they would have, levy archers with knives, hooded cloaks, hide in tall grass, but not really much good; Scots would have some better Regyddite archers probably, will explain below) -
Description - Gaels rarely employ professional archers as soldiers, except for mercenaries. They, personally, see little value in archers. However, when they do employ their own, they tend to be simple levies of hunters, who, while proficient with their bows, are not soldiers, and easily chased off of a battlefield if engaged not properly defended, or if engaged in a melee.

Sleanaghta (Spearmen with heavy throwing spears, large round shield, leather helmet, and padded coat (Irish)/leather vest/coat (Scots)) -
Description - The slea or gae (spear) is the preferred weapon of most Gaelic soldiers. Accompanied with heavy throwing spears and a solid Gaelic targe, these spearmen form the backbone of any Gaelic army. They are professional soldiers, who either bought their equipment, or were sponsored by a wealthier member of society. They are intended to hold positions, and are often placed around missile troops to defend them from cavalry and any other threats that might occur.

Tuanaghta (Axemen with heavy throwing spears, large round shield, leather helmet, and padded coat (Irish)/leather coat (Scots)) -
Description - The tua (axe) is one of the oldest and most favored weapons of the Gaels. The Gaelic axe has a particularly weighty head, meant to crush helmets and smash shields. With it, like most Gaels carry, are carried two heavy throwing spears, thrown into an enemy position before a charge. The Gaelic axemen act as a kind of bridge between medium and heavy infantry.

Claiomhnaghta (Mid-length swordsmen with javelins, large round shield, leather helmet, padded coat (Irish), leather coat (Scots)) -
Description - The claiomh, climh, or clom (sword) is an expensive weapon, but generally well made. Faster than an axe, and generally more wieldy than a spear, it allows the soldier using it to manuever into position for thrusts and slashes. The typical Gaelic sword is shorter than a longsword, but not a shortsword. It generally has a leaf-shaped blade, meant to offer wide, sheering cuts, and devestating thrusts that open wide, gaping wounds. It is accompanied with a heavy Gaelic targe, and three light throwing spears; these spears are favored for swordsmen, so to enhance the mobility of these soldiers, but keep them able to fight in the traditional Gaelic manner.

Gaemornaghta (Spearmen with long, two-handed spears (not actually pikes though), maybe use phalanx, leather helmet, padded coat (Irish), leather coat (Scots)) -
Description - The Gaemor or Gaemhor (great spear) is a lengthy spear generally used in two hands. It is used in a tight formation as an anti-cavalry and anti-infantry measure; it is difficult to manuever past a wall of spear heads. While in use for centuries, this type of soldier grew increasingly more common among the Gaels as the dark ages and middle ages drove on; a response to the growing importance of cavalrymen.

Guirran (Horsemen with javelins, and an axe/spear in melee, large round shield, leather helmet, padded coat (Irish), leather coat (Scots)) -
Description - Gaelic light cavalry sticks to the common methods of Gaelic combat. They are skirmishers by default, meant to ride toward an opponent, throw javelins, and retreat, ad infinitum. Training and experience has made them fairly good at this, and the Guirran (horsemen), later called hobblers or hobilars, became a staple of English and French armies as well.

Amguirran Ridire (Gaelic heavy cavalry with axes/swords, and lance, large-ring chain armor/scale armor, long leines, large round shield, iron conical helmet, should be a bit late period) -
Description - Champions in Gaelic culture are afforded some of the best weapons and equipment. The Ridire are the Gaelic equivalent of 'knights'; they have a patron who provides them with equipment, training, and gifts for performing well. On horseback, they form the Amguirran (heavy horsemen); Gaels don't tend to use much heavy cavalry, but when they do, they form a powerful reserve on the field for mowing down enemy infantry.

Clommhornaghta (Longswordsmen with javelins, large round shield, iron helmet, padded coat (Irish), leather coat (Scots), or scale armor) -
Description - The claiomh, climh, or clom (sword) is an expensive weapon, but generally well made. The longsword is a rare weapon among Gaels outside of aristocracy, but wars with vikings helped to popularize it. Wealthier soldiers may often binge and purchase a longsword, from viking traders, or commission one from a smith locally. Such warriors would be small in number, but relatively cheap semi-heavy infantry, since they'd provide most, if not all, of their own equipment.

Ridire (Gaelic heavy infantry with axes, large-ring chain armor/scale armor, long leines, large round shield, iron conical helmet, throwing spears) -
Description - Champions in Gaelic culture are afforded some of the best weapons and equipment. The Ridire are the Gaelic equivalent of 'knights'; they have a patron who provides them with equipment, training, and gifts for performing well. On foot, they form heavy infantry soldiers, with throwing spears, like most other Gaelic infantry, to disrupt an enemy line before charging. When defending, they use a tight formation, akin to a Norse shieldwall, to absorb charges.

Arras (Gaelic general unit, foot nobles with longswords, 'robes', long chain armor, large round shield, iron conical helmet, javelins) -
Description - Gaelic 'nobility' are drawn from numerous places; everyone from the lowest chief to the high king are considered Arras, as well as indepedent, wealthy merchants and traders. They can afford the best training, the best equipment, and the best soldiers to support them. Like other Gaels, they carry javelins to throw at their enemies before charging, and form a tight shieldwall-like formation to absorb an attack. They use long slashing and thrusting swords, often of Norse design, though Gaels also have their own styles of longsword. The heavy Gaelic targe, good quality chain armor, and a well-made iron helmet, provide them great protection against their enemies.

Scottish uniques;
Criosionaghta (Crossbowmen, late period unit, leather armor, an iron helmet, cudgel or mace in melee) -
Description - The crossbow changed the face of warfare in the kingdom of Alba. Scots took well to it, using it combat eachothers' tribes, as the bolt could pierce even the best chain armor. Arcuballistas had been used by pre-Gaelic Picts, but had never found much favor among Scots. They used the crossbow against both eachother and invaders; progessively more against invaders as they grew more stable and unified.

Picts (wear long-sleeve shirt, a heavy coat, trousers, boots, tattooed skin, bearded; all Picts hide in tall grass): -
Pictish Taghnaghta (Pict axemen, with a small round shield) -
Description - The Picts were subverted and eventually absorbed by the Scots. However, they were sometimes used by Scots as shock troops and skirmishers. Pictish axemen use a small round shield, and a small hand axe; they're not the most skilled, but cheap and plentiful shock troops.

Pictish Gaenaghta (Pict spearmen with javelins and a small round shield, fight as skirmishers) -
Description - The Picts were subverted and eventually absorbed by the Scots. However, they were sometimes used by Scots as shock troops and skirmishers. Pictish skirmishers and spearmen were used as harassers and harriers, to weaken and slow down enemy forces. Similar troops made up the majority of Pictish rebels the Scots would eventually have to quell.

Pictish Fiagai (Pict huntsmen with a light crossbow {imitated arcuballista}) -
Description - The Picts were subverted and eventually absorbed by the Scots. However, they were sometimes used by Scots as shock troops and skirmishers. Pictish huntsmen were useful as missile troops and ambushers. Picts had used the arcuballista for centuries, after it was introduced by wars and trade with Romans.

Pictish Argull (Pict nobles with a sword, shield, robe, and leather armor, raise allied morale) -
Description - The Picts were subverted and eventually absorbed by the Scots. However, they were sometimes used by Scots as shock troops and skirmishers. Pictish nobles fought against the Scots, and beside them; they were fairly well equipped and brave.

Strathclyders/Regyddites (from southwest Scotland; they'd look like Gaels in this period):
Gaelo-British Ridire (Look like Ridire, but with a two-handed axe instead of axes/shields, shield strapped to back) -
Description - The Strathclyders and Regyddites were Britons, heavily influenced by Gaelic culture. Their best soldiers often use a heavy axe, in one or two-hands. This axe is often actually little more than a modified wood axe, though they'd later begin using bearded heads and similar other types of axes.

Regyddite Bognaghta ('Bowmen', Fair quality archers with knife in melee, in heavy cloaks; 'Bog' is a Norse word for bow that was adopted slightly later than your start period) -
Description - The Regyddites add substantial ranged power to the Scots compared to normal Gaelic archers. Regyddites have skilled archers, who wear heavy defensive cloaks, and carry long knives in melee. They can fire a fair distance with decent accuracy, and are accustomed to combat, so less likely to break.

Irish uniques;
Rastriagha (Irish berserkers, use an axe, cudgel, or hammer, round shield, probably wearing a crucifix (they were fanatics of different saint cults, and also generally trained soldiers), no armor) -
Description - The Irish have their own berserker tradition, stemming from pagan times, but adapted well into the Christian era. The Irish are generally very fervent people; the most fervent soldiers tend to belong to saint cults, such as the cult of St. Finbar. Their devotion to their people and the Church keeps them constantly training. Many even join monastaries and are actually monks or priests. In battle, they enter a kind of religious-inspired frenzy, and kill anyone they see as a threat to Ireland or Christianity.

Inishnaghta (Irish islanders from the satellite islands of Ireland, with heavy cloaks, no armor, large round shield, bipenne axe (two blades), heavy throwing spears, leather helmet, painted skin) -
Description - The islanders of Ireland live among the many sattelite islands. They fight with a version of the Gaelic axe, with two blades, and carry heavy throwing spears. They still paint their skin, and are some of the bravest soldiers in Ireland, though they wear no armor, but a helmet, and instead use a heavy cloak as defense.

Maiobhanaghta (Irish slingers with knives and a small round shield, padded armor, leather helmet, better than their archers, and slings are substantially longer range than a normal bow) -
Description - The sling is still a popular weapon among the Irish. It is far longer range than a regular bow, and a sling bullet of clay or stone is surprisingly deadly. Slingers in use by the Gaelic Irish often are used to harass an enemy from great distance. Further, they are professional soldiers, not levies like Gaelic archers.

Caeisornaghta (Irish macemen, with a round-headed mace {not flanged, like medieval period mace}, round shield, throwing spears, leather helmet, padded armor) -
Description - The mace is an old, simple weapon. While popularized widely in Europe by the advent of plate armor, Gaels, the Irish particularly, have used the mace for century, with a smooth spherical or egg-shaped head. They are another arm of Irish infantry, and fight like axe or spearmen, with heavy spears thrown before a charge. The mace is essentially a glorified club, but it is very effective against most types of armor and any shield.

Dinuadda-Claiomhnaghta (Irish longswordsmen; using longsword in two-hands though (not a greatsword), padded armor, iron helmet, available in southern Ireland) -
Description - Southern Irish longswords sometimes accomodated longer grips, meant to be used in two hands. Longswords were somewhat rare in Ireland to begin with, and these particular weapons rarely proliferated far, but they were a favored weapon of numerous champions and wealthier soldiers, as they could be used in one or two hands. In two hands, they would be able to deal more damage.

Carpata - Gaelic chariot; chariot models don't count (they are counted with siege engines), but it'd probably need a new model for the driver. Would probably look similar to a British Wetwang chariot in shape, but less decoration than you see on reconstructions; riders would be Sleanaghta or similar infantry, maybe even just use them, in which case no new model would be needed at all; would raise allied morale
Description - The Gaels still used chariots in this period. They were in rapid decline in use, and had rarely been much of a weapon for war outside of a few regions, where the ground was smooth and flat enough to make good use of them, but they were still a popularized possession, and it was rare for aristocrats to not own at least one chariot for formal events. In war, they were used to drop nobles off into the middle of the fight (which can't be replicated in game), and as a missile platform from which the riders would hurl javelins, and also to crush light infantry by riding over them with the chariot's substantial weight.

Mercenaries in Scotland and Ireland;
Ostmen (Ireland and southwest Scotland only; Gaelicized Norsemen; dressed like Gaels, but with a Norse round shield, viking sword or axe, leather or chain armor, round metal helmet, trews)
Cymri Dynne (All of Britain and eastern Ireland; mercenary Welsh archers)
Gael Gaedhilbuanna (No province should start with these in them, but they should generate slowly; Gaelic-Norse raiders, available in eastern Ireland and southwest Scotland)
Gaelbuanna (Gaelic mercenaries in all of Britain, can be a number of mercenaries, really; just use the 'basic' units as mercs; names are easy, instead of 'naghta', the name ends in 'buanna' {'mercenaries'})


I'm aware you probably won't do all or most of that, but it's what I'd recommend for accurate Gaels (and keeps them from looking at all like Saxons or Welsh, since they didn't at all look like them).

[The Stranger]

thanx

[Meneldil]

Here's the Franksih army list I posted for Fury of the Northmen MTW mod. I thought it could be helpful :


Comes: Comes were part of the higher Frankish nobility, they were the king’s most important vassals. What distinguished them from the other members of the nobility was that they had their own vassals, loyal to them personally. When a Comes was granted land by the King, his part of the deal was that he would bring a certain number of knights to the battlefield when summoned. They were often used as the king’s elite bodyguards, or were asked to lead batailles (battlefield divisions) during important battles.

Units of 15 men
Armed with spears
Armoured
Irresistible charge
High moral
Impetuous
May charge without orders

Milites: Milites are the backbones of Frankish armies. They are fearsome warriors, and as cavalrymen, their skills are only matched by the Katraphraktoi and by the Normans knights.
Like many other knights, their arrogance might sometimes be a problem, and might aswell lead them in dangerous situations.

Unit of 40 men
Elite unit
Armed with spears
Armoured
Large shield
Irresistible charge
High moral
Impetuous
May charge without orders
May dismount before battle

http://www.image-dump.com/view.php?m=1&x=19258

Milites pedites: While they mostly fight as heavy cavalry, Milites are sometimes dismounted and used as heavy infantry. Though they may not be as effective as mounted Milites, they are a very effective heavy infantry. Protected by heavy armours and large shields, and armed with swords and axes, they are probably the best infantry a Frankish king could lead to the battle.

Unit of 40 men
Bonus vs. armoured troops
Elite unit
Armoured
Large shield
High moral
Impetuous
May charge without orders
Slow

http://www.image-dump.com/view.php?m=1&x=19257

Pueri: Pueri are light cavalry, mostly used to scout out the enemy positions and troop strengths, as well as to take care of skirmishers and light infantry. Unlike milites, pueri aren’t part of the high nobility, but rather poor knights or squires.

Unit of 40 men
Powerful charge
Armed with throwing spears
Missiles effective against armour
Fast

Liberi: Liberi are lesser warriors. Though they can stand a fight against more professional warriors, they are mainly used to make the number, and to support the heavy Frankish cavalry during long fights (which was unlikely to happen, since the Milites’ charge was often enough to break the enemy). Liberi usually use spears and shields or bows.

Liberi (spearmen):
Unit of 100 men
Powerful charge
Armed with spears
Large shield
Weak attack
Weak defence
Effective against cavalry
Can fight on 2 ranks

http://www.image-dump.com/view.php?m=1&x=19256

Liberi (archers):
Unit of 66 men
Good attack
Weak defence
Poor moral

http://www.image-dump.com/view.php?m=1&x=19255

Coloni: Coloni are nothing else than quickly-trained peasants. They are not really good at fighting, but they can form a cheap and useful militia in times of need.

Same thing as peasants from MTW

Here are some Normans, Britons and Flemish special units:

Norman Milites: Norman knights are probably the finest cavalry of the era. They learnt how to use lance when fighting as mercenaries for the Byzantines, but unlike Byzantine cavalry who used to charge at a brisk trot, Normans usually enter the fight at the highest speed possible, wreaking havoc in their enemy’s ranks, which usually lead to a quick victory.

Unit of 40 men
Armed with spears
Irresistible charge
High moral
Elite unit
Large shield
Heavily armoured
Impetuous
May charge without orders

http://www.image-dump.com/view.php?m=1&x=19259

PS: The use of the cavalry lance + high speed charge was probably not used before the mid/late 10th century, so I don’t know if they should have the irresistible charge. It’s up to you, though I think it would make Norman knights a nice unit.

Norman infantry (I have no idea if this unit is totally correct, but I know that while Franks were sometimes warring with cavalry armies only, Normans were rather using both infantry and cavalry, so I think it might be a good idea): Unlike franks who were mostly relying on their heavy cavalry and on their archers, Normans used both infantry and cavalry to win battles. Norman, having blood from both Vikings and franks, can form a superb infantry, a good combination of Frankish warfare and Vikings warlike.

Unit of 100 men
Armoured
Strong charge
High moral
Elite unit
Large shield
Impetuous
May charge without orders
Bonus vs. armoured troops

Devroet: Devroet means literally Breton exile. Whereas Brittany wasn’t actually a part of the Frankish empire, Britons were often used in both Normans and Frankish armies. They are famous for their horsemanship and are used as an effective medium cavalry, used to support heavier cavalry or infantry, or to rout enemy skirmishers or light infantry.

Unit of 40 men
Armed with spears and javelins
Very strong charge
Missiles effective vs. armoured troops
Good moral

Flemish spearmen: The county of Flanders is nominally a part of the Western Frank Empire. In fact, the county was often warring against the French king, and quickly became a semi-independent province. To protect Flanders from attacks from both Normans and Frankish armies, Flemish lords had to train professional warriors, which could defend themselves against the heavy cavalry they often had to fight. Those warriors were also often hired as mercenaries in west Europe.

Unit of 100 men
Armed with spears
Large shields
Very effective against cavalry
Powerful charge
Good moral
Good defence

Stipendarii: Mercenary knights are often recruited from all over north-west Europe, as well as Spain and Italy. Stipendarii is the name of those mercenary groups, often composed of fallen knights, fighting sometimes for glory, and often for money. These skilled warriors spend their time fighting for wealthy lords and kings and are a good and reliable cavalry, as well as an effective medium infantry.

Mounted stipendarii:
Unit of 60 men
Armed with spears
Fast
Powerful charge
Bonus versus armoured troop
Poor moral

Stipendarii pedites:
Unit of 60 men
Good attack
Bonus versus armoured troops
Poor moral

A pic that could be used for Stipendarii, though it's supposed to be a spanish mercenary knight from the XIIIth century :
http://www.image-dump.com/view.php?m=1&x=19463

Italian crossbowmen: Italian crossbowmen are considered as the best long range infantry a Christian lord could hire. Crossbow is a fearsome weapon that can easily kill a man in a single shot, and unlike long and composite bows, it can be used effectively after a few days of training. One thing is certain; mercenaries from Italia are famous for their use of the crossbow.

Unit of 60 men
Good attack
Long range
Weak defence
Slow rate of fire
Slow
Bonus vs. armoured troop
Poor moral

[Rodion Romanovich]

Wow, that's great! I now noticed I've missed a lot of the info in this thread. I'll take a look at the last few pages and update the tech trees with the new info in the coming days (I'm working on the map at the same time so it might take some time, but hopefully not too long).

[Rodion Romanovich]

Frankish tech trees under construction ATM. Magyar tech tree needs some more research before it can be completed.

[Meneldil]

There's also a tehc tree for a blatic faction (in case we can add one with BI), for a Finno Ugrian faction (Hame I think), and possibly for the Rus and British isles factions.


Here's someting I found out on the net :

http://www.wargamesfoundry.com/books/byzantium.asp

Early Byzantines 527-660 AD:
including the armies of Justinian and Heraclius
Germanic Kingdoms 442-800AD:
including the armies of the Ostrogoths and Lombards
Sassanid Persians 226-649 AD:
including armies for the early and later Sassanid period
Steppe Nomads 558-1200 AD:
including the armies of the Magyars and Penchenegs
Thematic Byzantines 660- 1042AD:
including the armies of the Isaurian and Macedonian dynasties
Bulgars and Slavs 643- 1018 AD:
including the armies of the early and later Bulgars
Early Caliphates 632- 1073 AD:
including the armies of the Arab Conquest and Abbasids
The Rus 750-1250 AD:
including the armies of the Early Pagan and Great Rus
Later Byzantines1042-1185 AD:
including the armies of the Komnenian dynasty


http://www.wargamesfoundry.com/books/elcid.asp

Armies of Christian Spain : The Early Christian Kingdoms. the Age of El Cid and the Reconquista.
Armies of Al-Andalus : The Caliphate of Cordoba. the Taifa Kings and the Later Taifas. Armies of the African Invaders – The Almoravids and the Almohads.
Aliados y Mercenaries – Allies and Mercenaries available for hire to complement your armies.


As these books have info on roughly the factions were looking for, I thought it would be nice to get one (furthermore, I made the frankish/norman army list with another WAB publication : Shieldwall)


The link to ShieldWall doesn't work anymore, but the book has army list for the saxons, the vikings, the franks/normans, the welsh, the irish and the scot.

[Rodion Romanovich]

There's also a tehc tree for a blatic faction (in case we can add one with BI), for a Finno Ugrian faction (Hame I think), and possibly for the Rus and British isles factions.


Here's someting I found out on the net :

http://www.wargamesfoundry.com/books/byzantium.asp

Early Byzantines 527-660 AD:
including the armies of Justinian and Heraclius
Germanic Kingdoms 442-800AD:
including the armies of the Ostrogoths and Lombards
Sassanid Persians 226-649 AD:
including armies for the early and later Sassanid period
Steppe Nomads 558-1200 AD:
including the armies of the Magyars and Penchenegs
Thematic Byzantines 660- 1042AD:
including the armies of the Isaurian and Macedonian dynasties
Bulgars and Slavs 643- 1018 AD:
including the armies of the early and later Bulgars
Early Caliphates 632- 1073 AD:
including the armies of the Arab Conquest and Abbasids
The Rus 750-1250 AD:
including the armies of the Early Pagan and Great Rus
Later Byzantines1042-1185 AD:
including the armies of the Komnenian dynasty


http://www.wargamesfoundry.com/books/elcid.asp

Armies of Christian Spain : The Early Christian Kingdoms. the Age of El Cid and the Reconquista.
Armies of Al-Andalus : The Caliphate of Cordoba. the Taifa Kings and the Later Taifas. Armies of the African Invaders – The Almoravids and the Almohads.
Aliados y Mercenaries – Allies and Mercenaries available for hire to complement your armies.


As these books have info on roughly the factions were looking for, I thought it would be nice to get one (furthermore, I made the frankish/norman army list with another WAB publication : Shieldwall)


The link to ShieldWall doesn't work anymore, but the book has army list for the saxons, the vikings, the franks/normans, the welsh, the irish and the scot.

Ok, might be interesting. As for ShieldWall link going down, the saxons, vikings, welsh, irish and scots are the tech trees that are already complete, so it was no loss ~:) . It's mostly the other factions that require more work. Those marked in red in the first post are already complete...

[Rodion Romanovich]

NEW FRENCH AND NORMAN TECH TREE SUGGESTIONS:

France, HRE and Lotharingia
=====================
- Chapel (+10 happiness, requires town), Church (+20 happiness, +1 morale, +5% law, requires large town), Cathedral (+40 happiness, +2 morale, +10% law, enable training of catholic fanatics - clubmen?, requires city)
- Abbey/Monastery (requires Church, +10% happiness - perhaps replace this building with specific monastery types for different religious orders granting different boni and which can only be built in a certain province/in certain provinces)
- Forest clearings (+5 farming, available from start in most provinces - high bonus to indicate how an important improvement this step means compared to no farming buildings), Farms (+8 farming), Crop rotation (+11 farming), Farming technology (+14 farming), Feudal farming (+17 farming).
- Proper sewage (+10% health bonus), Herbal medicine (+15% health bonus), Water pipes (+20% health bonus).
- Paths, Mud roads, Paved roads
- Trader (+20% trade), Market (+40% trade), Merchant (+60% trade), Master merchant (+80 trade, +10% happiness)
- Port, Shipyard, Dockyard (all these enable training of better and better ships)
- Blacksmith (+1 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Master blacksmith (+2 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Armorer (+1 to all armor, will NOT require blacksmith in order to be constructed), Master armorer (+2 to all armor)
- Salt mine (+1 mining), Large salt mine (+2 mining), Copper mine (+2 mining), Large copper mine (+4 mining), Silver mine (+3 mining), Large silver mine (+6 mining), Gold mine (+4 mining), Large gold mine (+8 mining). All mines require their respective resources in the province in order to be possible to build.
- Academy, University
- Wooden pallisade, Wooden wall, Large wooden wall (possible to move on top of it), Stone wall (possible to move on top of it), Large stone wall (possible to move on top of it)

- Muster field (javelinmen, coloni [cheap levies, light wooden spears]), Town militia (urban militia [HRE only], coloni +1 xp, +5% law), Police force (urban guard [HRE only], +10% law)
- Bowmaker (militia bowmen, liberi bowmen), Bowmaker's workshop (militia archers, liberi archers), Bowmaker's guild (militia archers +1 xp, liberi archers +1 xp, genoese crossbowmen [france and lotharingia only, ZOR: southeast france and northern Italy]), Master bowmaker (crossbowmen, pavise crossbowmen)
- Practise target (requires bowmaker, +1 missile weapon xp), Archery range (+2 missile weapon xp).
- Spearmaker (spear militia), Spearmaker's workshop (spear militia +1 xp), Spearmaker's guild (liberi spearmen [spears and large shields, medium spearmen, anti-cav bonus, 0 turns training time]), Master spearmaker (-)
- Horse farmer (militia swordscavalry, militia spearcavalry [javelin and spear]), Stables (pueri [light scout cavalry, rather cheap, swords and throwing spears], devroet [medium cavalry, spears and javelins, good charge, good morale, ZOR: northern France]), Cavalry stables (early milites [heavy cavalry, spears and swords, large shield, very good morale, elite, low discipline], early comes [heavy cavalry, small unit, spears and swords, armored, very good morale, elite, low discipline]), Elite cavalry stables (late milites [heavy cavalry, spears and swords, large shield, very good morale, elite, low discipline], late comes [heavy cavalry, small unit, spears and swords, armored, very good morale, elite, low discipline], knights hospitaller [3 turns training, ZOR Jerusalem only, therefore very hard to get])
- Cavalry training field (+1 to cavalry xp, requires Stables), Cavalry training grounds (+2 to cavalry xp, requires Cavalry stables), Cavalry academy (+3 to cavalry xp, requires Elite cavalry stables).
- Weaponsmith (militia axemen), Weaponsmith's workshop (-), Weaponsmith's guild (milites pedites axe [heavy armor, axes, low discipline], milites pedites sword [heavy armor, swords, low discipline]), Master weaponsmith (-)
- Barracks (requires Weaponsmith's workshop, +1 swordsmen xp), Army barracks (requires Weaponsmith's guild, +2 swordsmen xp), Military academy (requires Master weaponsmith, +3 swordsmen xp)
- Siege engineer (requires town, ballista), Siege engineer's workshop (requires large town, mangonel), Siege engineer's guild (requires city, -)

Normans
=======
- Chapel (+10 happiness, requires town), Church (+20 happiness, +1 morale, +5% law, requires large town), Cathedral (+40 happiness, +2 morale, +10% law, enable training of catholic fanatics - clubmen?, requires city)
- Abbey/Monastery (requires Church, +10% happiness - perhaps replace this building with specific monastery types for different religious orders granting different boni and which can only be built in a certain province/in certain provinces)
- Forest clearings (+5 farming, available from start in most provinces - high bonus to indicate how an important improvement this step means compared to no farming buildings), Farms (+8 farming), Crop rotation (+11 farming), Farming technology (+14 farming), Feudal farming (+17 farming).
- Proper sewage (+10% health bonus), Herbal medicine (+15% health bonus), Water pipes (+20% health bonus).
- Paths, Mud roads, Paved roads
- Trader (+20% trade), Market (+40% trade), Merchant (+60% trade), Master merchant (+80 trade, +10% happiness)
- Port, Shipyard, Dockyard (all these enable training of better and better ships)
- Blacksmith (+1 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Master blacksmith (+2 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Armorer (+1 to all armor, will NOT require blacksmith in order to be constructed), Master armorer (+2 to all armor)
- Salt mine (+1 mining), Large salt mine (+2 mining), Copper mine (+2 mining), Large copper mine (+4 mining), Silver mine (+3 mining), Large silver mine (+6 mining), Gold mine (+4 mining), Large gold mine (+8 mining). All mines require their respective resources in the province in order to be possible to build.
- Academy, University
- Wooden pallisade, Wooden wall, Large wooden wall (possible to move on top of it), Stone wall (possible to move on top of it), Large stone wall (possible to move on top of it)

- Muster field (javelinmen, coloni [cheap levies, light wooden spears]), Town militia (coloni +1 xp, +5% law), Police force (+10% law)
- Bowmaker (militia bowmen, liberi bowmen), Bowmaker's workshop (militia archers, liberi archers), Bowmaker's guild (militia archers +1 xp, liberi archers +1 xp), Master bowmaker (crossbowmen)
- Practise target (requires bowmaker, +1 missile weapon xp), Archery range (+2 missile weapon xp).
- Spearmaker (spear militia), Spearmaker's workshop (spear militia +1 xp), Spearmaker's guild (liberi spearmen [spears and large shields, medium spearmen, anti-cav bonus, 0 turns training time]), Master spearmaker (-)
- Horse farmer (militia swordscavalry, militia spearcavalry [javelin and spear]), Stables (pueri [light scout cavalry, rather cheap, swords and throwing spears], devroet [medium cavalry, spears and javelins, good charge, good morale, ZOR: northern France]), Cavalry stables (early milites [heavy cavalry, spears and swords, large shield, very good morale, elite, low discipline], early comes [heavy cavalry, small unit, spears and swords, armored, very good morale, elite, low discipline]), Elite cavalry stables (late milites [heavy cavalry, spears and swords, large shield, very good morale, elite, low discipline], late comes [heavy cavalry, small unit, spears and swords, armored, very good morale, elite, low discipline], norman milites [heavy cavalry, spears and swords, large shield, very good morale, elite, low discipline, ZOR: Northern France])
- Cavalry training field (+1 to cavalry xp, requires Stables), Cavalry training grounds (+2 to cavalry xp, requires Cavalry stables), Cavalry academy (+3 to cavalry xp, requires Elite cavalry stables).
- Weaponsmith (landsmenn [axe, 0 turns training, more viking-like look, levies]), Weaponsmith's workshop (norman infantry [axe, medium armor, large drop-shield, good morale, fairly professional], breton infantry [light, fast, excellent morale, axe, primary weapon are javelins {very little ammo though}, can skirmish, ZOR: northern france]), Weaponsmith's guild (norman pedites [heavy armor, axes, drop-shield, good morale, low discipline]), Master weaponsmith (-)
- Barracks (requires Weaponsmith's workshop, +1 swordsmen xp), Army barracks (requires Weaponsmith's guild, +2 swordsmen xp), Military academy (requires Master weaponsmith, +3 swordsmen xp)
- Siege engineer (requires town, ballista), Siege engineer's workshop (requires large town, mangonel), Siege engineer's guild (requires city, -)

MERCENARIES:
===========
- stipendarii [medium to heavy cavalry, comparable to level 3 cavalry, but with lower morale, quite expensive, spears and swords, ZOR: France, western half of HRE and northern, mostly the Christian parts of, Spain]
- stipendarii pedites [medium to heavy footmen, spears and swords, ZOR: France, western half of HRE and northern, mostly the Christian parts of, Spain]
- flemish spearmen [medium spearmen, large shields, very good anti-cav bonus, good morale, good defense, ZOR: Flanders]

[Jarlabanke]

No knights of the hospital until 1113 though.

[Meneldil]

Yeah, maybe replace them by Knights of the Christ, if the player achieve to reach Jerusalem (we could create an event that would trigger the creation of the order), but Hospitaller shouldn't appear before the templars.

[Jarlabanke]

Thought the templars came 1120.

[Rodion Romanovich]

My motive for including hospitallers was that they were the only ones to have an order before 1099 AD. However, they were mostly nurses and doctors at that time, with limited military influence, although I'm not sure it's correct to state that they begun military actions after the templars did. Anyway, I like your idea with a generic Knights of the Christ unit or something like that, that would remove all the problems.

[Meneldil]

Well, the Order of the Hospital existed before 1099, but it turned into a military order only after the creation of the templar order (the templar ordrer was created around 1118, and the the Hospitaler became a military order in 1130.

But we don't have to stick to History. We could always create an event that create Templars if say, the French or the Normans reach Jerusalem, and the Hospitaller for the Germans. As you may have seen in the Gameplay preview of EB, we can do a whole lot of things with script. We just have to find an historical basis.

[Jarlabanke]

The problem with calling something "Knights of christ" is that they too existed, and have contiued to do so til this day, but weren't founded until 14th century.

[Meneldil]

Poor Knights of the Christ was the first name Templars.
They were known as Poor Knights of the Christ, then as Knights of the Temple, and finally as Templars.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Well, the Order of the Hospital existed before 1099, but it turned into a military order only after the creation of the templar order (the templar ordrer was created around 1118, and the the Hospitaler became a military order in 1130.

But we don't have to stick to History. We could always create an event that create Templars if say, the French or the Normans reach Jerusalem, and the Hospitaller for the Germans. As you may have seen in the Gameplay preview of EB, we can do a whole lot of things with script. We just have to find an historical basis.

Yes, I like that idea. Perhaps the event would unlock training of Templars/Hospitallers in ZOR France+HRE+Italy+nearest vicinity of Jerusalem for French/Normans and HRE respectively.

[Randarkmaan]

and the Hospitaller for the Germans.

Ehm...The Hospitallers were NOT a german order, most of them were french, same with the templars.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Yes, the order wasn't German, but there is, afaik, no other order where there were enough Germans in at the time. The German branch of hospitallers, the Johanniterrittern (unsure about spelling), is well known. Anyway, more research is needed before we can decide anything about the knight order units.

BTW, a good combination of triggers for unlocking training of the units in question could be:
1. capture Jerusalem
2. year 1000 or later
3. have at least one cathedral
4. and some more secret ~:) stuff to make it slightly more random, perhaps also add a certain time (say 10 turns) from no.1 to no.3 have been achieved until the units become available.

[Meneldil]

And of course, someone would have to learn scripting ~D

I was pretty good at Warcraft 3 scripting, but never tried with RTW.

[Jarlabanke]

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03698b.htm

About the knights of christ

A couple of the orders exist to this day f.e
http://www.teutonicknight.com ~;)

[Meneldil]

Yeah, I think Hitler tried to get ride of the Teutonic order, and Malta is still the home of the former Hospitallers.

[Jarlabanke]

He did actually, but only for the duration of his regin. Though I really can't say I understand why.

[r-marci]

The ancient hungarian religion was samanist-monoteist. The centre of this is a huge tree, that split the world into three parts. Its branches hold the sky and the roots are in the Hell. A main theme of this religion is the fight of the Good (God, "Isten" or "Úr" in Hungarian) and the Bad (Devil, "Ördög" in Hungarian). The God lives top of the huge tree. Everybody knows where the Devil lives. The trunk was in the middle world. This is the world of the human but other people live here: demons (démonok), giants (óriások), dragons (sárkányok), nightmares (lidércek), fairies (tündérek). The most important was the good saman ("táltos" in Hungarian) in this religion. The evil witch was the opposit of the saman.

[r-marci]

Oh, sorry! I looked at the fore parts.

[Ranika]

Can the Norse get lighter Irish troops in Ireland? Representative of both native levies and Gaelicized Norsemen? They'd not look much different than others, except that more troops would be wearing trews (pretty much all of them), and not wearing cloaks; dressed the same way Gaels dressed foreign levies themselves.

[Rodion Romanovich]

@Ranika: As mercenaries they can get Gael gaedhilbuanna - gaelic-norse light raider infantry, good attack but low defense - especially vs cavalry, medium cost, HIRING ZONE: eastern Ireland and southwest Scotland - perhaps some more. Not existing from start, medium replenish speed.

[Meneldil]

Here are some changes I thought about :


France, HRE and Lotharingia
=====================
- Chapel (+10 happiness, requires town), Church (+20 happiness, +1 morale, +5% law, requires large town), Cathedral (+40 happiness, +2 morale, +10% law, enable training of catholic fanatics - clubmen?, requires city) >> I know a better name for European fanatics, I'll have a look at my sources
- Abbey/Monastery (requires Church, +10% happiness - perhaps replace this building with specific monastery types for different religious orders granting different boni and which can only be built in a certain province/in certain provinces)
- Forest clearings (+5 farming, available from start in most provinces - high bonus to indicate how an important improvement this step means compared to no farming buildings), Farms (+8 farming), Crop rotation (+11 farming), Farming technology (+14 farming), Feudal farming (+17 farming). Franks and non muslim nations should be limited to level 4. The Spanish moors had way better farming than the europeans.- Proper sewage (+10% health bonus), Herbal medicine (+15% health bonus), Water pipes (+20% health bonus).
- Paths, Mud roads, Paved roads
- Trader (+20% trade), Market (+40% trade), Merchant (+60% trade), Master merchant (+80 trade, +10% happiness)
- Port, Shipyard, Dockyard (all these enable training of better and better ships). I was thinking about adding a trading port at level 1. It would have one trade road, and no ability to build ships (except maybe for the vikings). It would also be used as ports for rivers.
- Blacksmith (+1 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Master blacksmith (+2 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Armorer (+1 to all armor, will NOT require blacksmith in order to be constructed), Master armorer (+2 to all armor)
- Salt mine (+1 mining), Large salt mine (+2 mining), Copper mine (+2 mining), Large copper mine (+4 mining), Silver mine (+3 mining), Large silver mine (+6 mining), Gold mine (+4 mining), Large gold mine (+8 mining). All mines require their respective resources in the province in order to be possible to build. There can't be more than 2 mines still (as long as you want them to appear on the campaign map). Having 4 kind of mines suck up building complexes to
- Academy, University Don't really think this is historical. Maybe I'll find a better idea.
- Wooden pallisade, Wooden wall, Large wooden wall (possible to move on top of it), Stone wall (possible to move on top of it), Large stone wall (possible to move on top of it). It would require to create whole new wall models. Quite annoying. I think we should stucj to vanilla RTW level 3 walls, since only a few cities (Constantinople, Bagdad) had really big walls.

[Ranika]

@Ranika: As mercenaries they can get Gael gaedhilbuanna - gaelic-norse light raider infantry, good attack but low defense - especially vs cavalry, medium cost, HIRING ZONE: eastern Ireland and southwest Scotland - perhaps some more. Not existing from start, medium replenish speed.

I didn't mean mercenaries; I meant more like 'regional' units of sorts. Except they'd just be light Irish troops.

As for academies; they existed. I don't know if they existed in Frankish regions, but pretty sure they must've. There were academies in Britain and Ireland, so it seems likely they would be elsewhere too.

[Meneldil]

As early as in the 9th century ?

[Ranika]

Before the 9th century; in the 7th century, there was an academy of medicine south of Teamhair (Tara) that was burned down by vikings around 860. There are mentions of other universities; larger 'academies' existed but were pretty rare.

[Csatadi]

Magyars
=======
- Shrine to Úristen (+10 happiness, requires town), Sacred groove of Úristen (+20 happiness, requires large town), Sanctuary of Úristen (+30 happiness, requires city).
- Shrine to Boldogasszony (+10 happiness, requires town), Sacred groove of Boldogasszony (+20 happiness, requires large town), Sanctuary of Boldogasszony (+30 happiness, requires city).
Note: Úristen means word by word 'Godlord', Boldogasszony means 'Happywoman'. We have only traces of the old religion.
If you use the RTW type shrines Úristen should be a law-type god, and Boldogasszony a fertility type goddess or rather a mother goddess with public health bonus.
Note: Ancillary (priests to both): Táltos (+1 law, +1 public health, maybe a little healing after battles)
Note: the old god were called later 'the god of the Magyars'. We don't know any personal name to Him, maybe it wasn't any.
- Forest clearings (+5 farming, available from start in most provinces - high bonus to indicate how an important improvement this step means compared to no farming buildings), Farms (+8 farming), Crop rotation (+11 farming).
Note: in the Steppes there weren't large forests and in this era the Magyar agriculture was not such great.
- Paths, Mud roads
Note: does it mean the basic roads? I suggest level 1 roads.
- Trader (+20% trade), Market (+40% trade), Merchant (+60% trade)
- Port, Shipyard
- Blacksmith (+1 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Master blacksmith (+2 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Armorer (+1 to all armor, will NOT require blacksmith in order to be constructed), Master armorer (+2 to all armor)
- Salt mine (+1 mining), Large salt mine (+2 mining), Copper mine (+2 mining), Large copper mine (+4 mining), Silver mine (+3 mining), Large silver mine (+6 mining), Gold mine (+4 mining), Large gold mine (+8 mining). All mines require their respective resources in the province in order to be possible to build.
- Wooden pallisade, Wooden wall, Large wooden wall (possible to move on top of it), Stone wall (possible to move on top of it)
Note: the nomadic people didn't build walls, but if others are able to build the Magyars should, too.
- Muster field (servant e.g. slav axemen with lower stats (like at Schytians), servant e.g. slav spearmen with lower stats, peasants)
Note: the servants' weapons should be cheap, but I can imagine any type of them.
- Bowmaker (servant e.g. slav bowmen)
- Practise target (requires bowmaker, +1 missile weapon xp), Archery range (+2 missile weapon xp).
- Stables (Magyar horse archers [light horse archers, no armor, fast ZOR: pannonian and neighbouring regions], magyar heavy cavalry [medium cavalry, sword and bow], Magyar Elite Horse Archers [sword and bow, elite]), Cavalry stables (Pecheneg horse archers [ZOR north of Bulgaria up to Kiev area], Magyar úr's cavalry [heavy cavalry, lance and sword]), Elite cavalry stables (-)
Note: ZOR means mercenaries? I don't see any reason separate the Magyar, Kabar and Székely horse archers.

- Cavalry training field (+1 to cavalry xp, requires Stables), Cavalry training grounds (+2 to cavalry xp, requires Cavalry stables), Cavalry academy (+3 to cavalry xp, requires Elite cavalry stables).


The Christianity problem is not solved in this tech tree!!! But I think it is not only a Magyar handling problem. Knowing about it I can suggest things.
Instead of more happiness buildings (I cannot imagine anything.) I suggest an ancillary, the Regös. It is like the celtic bard, and should give +1 influence and +5 happiness. They should come very easy.
I hope Fergus will find out something about the heavy cavalry I didn't change anything in that part.
I suggest in general the Magyars should be at a power level 30-40% of the Khazar empire.


OLD VERSION
Magyars
=======
I can't find any info on magyar gods, I need help with that.
- Shrine to X (+10 happiness, requires town, ?), Sacred groove of X (+20 happiness, requires large town, ?), Sanctuary of X (+30 happiness, requires city, ?).
- MORE HAPPINESS BUILDINGS NEEDED
- Forest clearings (+5 farming, available from start in most provinces - high bonus to indicate how an important improvement this step means compared to no farming buildings), Farms (+8 farming), Crop rotation (+11 farming), Farming technology (+14 farming).
- Proper sewage (+10% health bonus), Herbal medicine (+15% health bonus).
- Paths, Mud roads
- Trader (+20% trade), Market (+40% trade), Merchant (+60% trade)
- Port, Shipyard, Dockyard (all these enable training of better and better ships)
- Blacksmith (+1 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Master blacksmith (+2 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Armorer (+1 to all armor, will NOT require blacksmith in order to be constructed), Master armorer (+2 to all armor)
- Salt mine (+1 mining), Large salt mine (+2 mining), Copper mine (+2 mining), Large copper mine (+4 mining), Silver mine (+3 mining), Large silver mine (+6 mining), Gold mine (+4 mining), Large gold mine (+8 mining). All mines require their respective resources in the province in order to be possible to build.
- Wooden pallisade, Wooden wall, Large wooden wall (possible to move on top of it), Stone wall (possible to move on top of it)

- Muster field (javelinmen, town watch, peasants), Town militia (slav javelinmen, urban militia, +5% law).
- Bowmaker (militia bowmen, bowmen), Bowmaker's workshop (militia archers, magyar archers), Bowmaker's guild (militia archer +1 xp, magyar archers +1 xp), Master bowmaker (crossbowmen).
- Practise target (requires bowmaker, +1 missile weapon xp), Archery range (+2 missile weapon xp).
- Spearmaker (spear militia), Spearmaker's workshop (spearmen), Spearmaker's guild (-), Master spearmaker (-).
- Horse farmer (militia swordscavalry, militia spearcavalry), Stables (kabar horse archers [light horse archers, no armor, fast], magyar heavy cavalry [medium cavalry, sword and bow], szekely [sword and bow, elite, ZOR: pannonian region]), Cavalry stables (pecheneg horse archers [ZOR north of Bulgaria up to Kiev area], magyar úr's cavalry [heavy cavalry, lance and sword]), Elite cavalry stables (-)
- Cavalry training field (+1 to cavalry xp, requires Stables), Cavalry training grounds (+2 to cavalry xp, requires Cavalry stables), Cavalry academy (+3 to cavalry xp, requires Elite cavalry stables).
- Swordsmaker (-), Swordsmaker's workshop (maygar swordsmen [very light troops]), Swordsmaker's guild (-), Master swordsmaker (-)
- Barracks (requires Swordsmaker's workshop, +1 swordsmen xp), Army barracks (requires Swordmaker's guild, +2 swordsmen xp)
- Siege engineer (requires town, ballista), Siege engineer's workshop (requires large town, mangonel), Siege engineer's guild (-)

[Rodion Romanovich]

Ok, that's good info.

ZOR doesn't mean mercenaries, it means that the units are only recruitable in certain provinces of the map (Rome Total Realism mod uses it, for example). Usually, that's the case for auxiliaries or ethnical groups fighting with their own traditional equipment rather than the more centralized army would use, or if there for any other reason seems good to restrict recruitment to a smaller area.

About magyar power balancing etc., I had in mind having them much less powerful than the Khazars, but there'll be some easy conquests for them with easily accessible provinces to the west, with very weak rebel garrisons in them. Hopefully that will make them move west rather than start fighting the Khazars, and behave more historically correct when controlled by the AI. I'm sure we'll find some good way of balancing them.

Anyway, I'm waiting for Forgus to come up with his suggestion before I'll do anything more about the final version of the magyar tech tree. That's why Christianity conversion isn't implemented yet.

[Meneldil]

Well, if we make the Magyars and Khazars allied in the beginning (as they were in reallity), I think the AI won't break the alliance early on, so the Magyar will have to move to the south/west.

[Csatadi]

Thanks for ZOR!
In the theory the Magyar Horse Archers and the Elite ones should be ZOR in Etelköz (Ukraine) AND in the whole Carpathian basin.
But in the reality of the game the Magyars can settle in any part of the map.
This is a reason not being a ZOR-type army.
I do not know if you know it or not, there were Magyar tribes who remain in the Khazar empire. After conquering the Carpathian basin the two parts of the nation lived in different way. In 1231 a monk found the orient Magyars yet. Interesting fact.

The Bulgarians and/or the Pechenegs should attack the Magyars. The first attack can be in the beginning. The second only in 895, you know. But I think in every game will bring other results.
HIstorically the Magyars were the protectorate of the Khazars but I do not know how would it work in the game.

[Forgus]

Shame on me but my version of the tech tree is still in progress.... :-(

[skeletor]

Well, if we make the Magyars and Khazars allied in the beginning (as they were in reallity), I think the AI won't break the alliance early on, so the Magyar will have to move to the south/west.

I thought the Magyars were allied to the Muslims at this point, in fear of the Khazars.... or was that the Bulgars?

Anyway, having them allied is probably the best way to make them expand west.

We must allso see what the "horde" feature brings. If BI can make the Vandals start as a horde migrating to a cetain point, this might allso be an option for them. Giving them an extrarinary startpoint.

-Skel-

[GoreBag]

I agree that the "horde" feature should be used for the Magyars at the beginning of the game, but as it stands, this cannot be modded in. For the sake of simplicity, the Magyars should have those two provinces and stay allied to the Khazars. However, I think that once the team gets BI and can have the Magyars begin play as a horde, they should still be allied to the Khazars.

[Meneldil]

Well, Magyars were close 'vassals' of the Khazars (who were allied with the Byzantines and often at war with the Caliphate and the Bulgars).

[GoreBag]

A protectorate, then?

[Archbaker]

I'm a stickler.


In Scandinavian languages, they are called ridder (i think thats why their refered to as viking raider in English) or knekt (but that name is probably adopted from the word knight)

I'm fairly certain it's the other way around. Knekt means boy or man as in "my men will kill you" and is the same word used in Landesknechte much later, as far as I can tell the English adopted it at some point to refer to professional soldiers and later narrowed it further to include only noble warriors.
Ridder means someone who rides and at some point becomes a noble title.
Skinkerytter means fearsome champion of the rainbow flag with lightning eyes.

[GoreBag]

Knekt, as in German "knecht", would just mean any knight, but more specifically, a knave, which was a rank of knight, but also has a connotation of "manservant".

[Archbaker]

I just wanted to set the semantics straight. Although, come to think of it, the Saxon version of the modern word knight could be quite close to knekt for all I know (I know there are more knowledgeable people here) and then it gets hard to tell who used the word first.

[Archbaker]

And by semantics I mean etymology. I couldn't find an edit button. Sorry.

[Archbaker]

I don't mean to spam, but I noticed there was talk of different kinds of monasteries and such, so I made some quick notes of my thoughts on the matter. Maybe useful, maybe not.

ASTURIA
Lots of Spanish/Asturian nationalism here. I figured Asturian bonuses should have to do with fighting against those numerically superior, so morale and defence have priority.

Monastery of Our Lady of Covadonga
This monastery is intended to protect and service pilgrims to a Marian shrine rather than to house members of a specific religious order.
Covadonga, the “Deep Cave”, is said to be the birthplace of modern Spain, and is the beginning of Asturia’s time as a great nation. This is where King Pelayo and his army were visited by the Virgin Mary and given the courage to spread the faith in the Lord.
The Virgin of Covadonga has been the patron saint of Asturies ever since.
(Happiness/morale or even armour upgrades could be used, and the Virgin Mary is the patron of Sailors as well)

Monastery to St. James
This monastery is intended to house the relics of a saint rather than to house members of a specific religious order.
St. James the Greater was one of the early disciples of Jesus and the first to be martyred. After his death at the hands of King Herod, angels sailed his body to Spain where he had done much of his work as an apostle.
St. James is the patron saint of Pilgrims, Horsemen, Blacksmiths, Apothecaries and Gallicia.
(Just remove mention to whatever areas of patronage will not be affected. Local name would probably be Santiago or Santiagu, depending on how much Castillano and Asturianu have changed since then)

Monastery of St. Pelagius
This monastery is intended to house the relics of a saint rather than to house members of a specific religious order.
Saint Pelagius or Pelayo is not related to King Pelayo. He was a young Asturian boy taken hostage by Moors who promised him his freedom if he would convert to their faith. When he had still not agreed to convert after three years, possibly spent as a male concubine in a harem, he was subjected to torture which he endured for three hours, still keeping his faith "A Christian I have been, Christian I am, and Christian I shall continue to be." The enraged Moors then gave him a martyr’s death and he was canonised shortly after his death.
Pelagius is depicted as a boy holding a sword in his left hand, his other hand missing.
(Pelayo died 925, and was canonised shortly after, so this event is well into the time period. However, I find that he fits the theme very well. Gives morale)


VIKINGS
I thought each Viking nation should have three different hovs which were different from the others like the Romans in vanilla. The idea behind the wooden church is that a Norse settlement can be made Catholic without turning the entire kingdom to another faith. This will make the citizens less happy, but make the local chieftain look better in the eyes of foreigners and thus improve trade.

Hov to Ægir
Although worshipped and feared as a god, Ægir is out of a Giant family and not one of the Aesir or Vanir.
Terrible Ægir lives on the bottom of the ocean near Hlesey east of Jutland from where he occasionally surfaces to drag a ship down with him to his hall.
The Æsir, on the other hand, are treated lavishly when they come to visit him, and it is said that his wealth is so great that during banquets his hall is illuminated solely with the shine from all his gold.
(sea, things like better ships?)

Hov to Njord
Njord is the god of the weather and protects fishermen and hunters. He is often invoked to protect sailors.
Njord is one of the Vanir, a group of gods associated with Elves and fertility that waged war with the Aesir. He came to Asgard along with his children Frey and Freya when the Aesir and the Vanir decided to exchange hostages to ensure peace in the future.
(sea or fertility)

Hov to Tor
Tor is the god of thunder and warriors. He gives strength and inspires ferocity and personifies both of these concepts. Thor is the subject of a multitude of myths, quite a few of which put him in embarrassing situations because his wits are not always equal to his strength. Tor has had many functions and even been a god of fertility at one point, but as more and more gods came about he was seen as a more specialised god of warriors.
One of the most popular gods in the late part of the age of Norse paganism, Thor’s hammer Mjolnir became a widespread symbol of the Asa faith.
(war, experience or weapon)

Hov to Tyr
Tyr is one of earliest Asir to be worshipped. His symbol is the rune T, an image which later became known as Thor’s Hammer.
Tyr is the god of war. Where Tor gives the warrior strength, Tyr gives the army courage. His own courage is never doubted as he lost his arm to the wolf Fenris when he, alone among the gods, was brave enough to put a leash on the great animal. Since then he has had to go into battle without a shield.
(war, morale, Danmark or Svea, I think)

Hov to Odin
Odin Allfather is the King of the gods and the god of kings. He is also god of a long range of other things including magic, wisdom, poetry and war. Odin is able to see all the world when sitting on his throne, and his two Raves Hugin and Munin bring him news from all the world.
Odin had to endure many sacrifices to gain his wisdom. He only has one eye because he threw the other one in Mimer’s well in exchange for a drink of its water.
Odin lives in Valhalla along where he keeps his private army of Einherjir, dead warriors selected among those who die in battle.
Odin is often depicted as a man with a raven on each shoulder or simply by a picture of a raven.
(law)

Hov to Freyia
Freya is the goddess of love and fertility and watches over crops and childbirth. Her hall Folkvang is filled with music at all times, and in it dwell those dead warriors who are not found among the Einherjir.
Freya is one of the Vanir, a group of gods associated with Elves and fertility that waged war with the Aesir. She came to Asgard along with her father Njord when the Aesir and the Vanir decided to exchange hostages to ensure peace in the future. Freya is also well versed in the use of magic, and has taught much to the Aesir.
(fertility, more towards health and happiness than Frey)

Hov to Freyr
Frey is a fertility god with many devoted followers. He inspires physical attraction and has power over the rain and grants good harvest.
Frey is also a warlike god and possesses a sword than can fight on its own. Another one of his priced possessions is the ship Skidbladnir which always sails by a direct route regardless of the wind and which can become small enough to fit in a pocket. Frey lives in the hall Alfrheim which may in fact be one of the Nine Worlds that make up Norse cosmology.
Frey is one of the Vanir, a group of gods associated with Elves and fertility that waged war with the Aesir. He came to Asgard along with his father Njord when the Aesir and the Vanir decided to exchange hostages to ensure peace in the future.
Some followers of the Vanir use Skibladnir as a holy symbol worn as a talisman hanging from their neck.
(fertility, should be Swedish, I think)


Hov to Heimdalr
Heimdalr is the protector of Bifrost, the rainbow bridge which leads to Asgard. His horn Gjallar will be heard everywhere in the word at the time of Ragnarok. He can see a hundred miles around him and hear the growing of the grass, and he requires no more sleep than a bird.
Heimdalr has nine mothers, so anyone can see that he is not just any god. In fact, he is a god of rulers and instated the Norse caste system with Thralls, Peasants and Warriors.
(law)

Hov to Frigg
Frigg is the wife of Odin and the goddess of motherhood and marriage, but she is also associated with wild nature and is said to know the destiny of all living beings.
(fertility)


Hov to Brage
Brage is the god of poetry and skalds. He is very eloquent and associated with lies and words with little relevance, but he is also invoked in serious oaths, and toasts in his name are used to ensure success in war or rulership or to remember fallen kings.
Brage is married to Idun who supplies the gods with the apples that keep them young forever.
(Brage may not have been a god at all in the early part of the time period, but there were already so many gods of fertility and I didn’t want to include too obscure gods)

Wooden Church
After Ansgar, the Apostle of the North, had converted King Eric of Danmark to Catholicism, Christians became more accepted in the Norse countries, but they were still wildly persecuted, especially during the pagan backlash after Eric’s death.
Nonetheless, a church was sometimes built near a marketplace where many foreign believers in White Christ wanted a place to gather. Although the locals would have preferred a proper god, it did help attract trade to their town.
(something like a trade bonus, but looses out on all the ordinary religious boni. Could have an upgrade to signify that the town was actually made Christian).

Hov to Ullr
Ullr is the god of physical exercise and especially fond of skiing and archery. Since the line between sports and a serious duel to settle an argument is often a fine one, he is also concerned with justice. He is associated with the yew, from which bows are often made, and watches over the fields.
(justice or fertility+missile upgrade.)

Hov to the Alfr
The Alfr, or Elves, are considered inferior to the Aesir, but their worship is ancient and since they take a very direct role in human lives and can grant good or (oftentimes) bad luck they receive frequent sacrifices.
One group of Alfr, the Svartalfr, is closely related to the Dwarves and supplies the Aesir with weapons and wondrous items. Other Alfr are concerned with fertility, and the helping or haunting spirits of households and nature are also closely to the Alfr.
(weapons bonus)

GENERAL CATHOLIC
I wanted these to have Fransiscan, Benedictine and Dominican monasteries, but only the Benedictine exist in the timeline, so I’m also using monasteries devoted to fairly random saints. There’s no real theme to these monasteries except maybe that of knights.

Benedictine Monastery
This monastery houses a community of monks who uphold the Rule of St. Benedict. This rigid code divides a monk’s life between sleep, work and religious pursuits and contains a plan for what activities are to be done at which hour of the day and a calendar describing how to observe each religious holiday.
It is important to know that the Benedictines are not a religious order in the sense of the later Dominicans or Franciscans. Each monastery is self-governing and there is no central leader of the Benedictines.
Benedictines are pacifists and believe in the value of hard work as summarised in the two mottos “pax” (peace) and “Ora et labora” (pray and work).
(health and order, could be recruiting place of discussed Hospitaller knights)

Augustine Monastery
This monastery houses a community of monks who uphold the Rules of St. Augustinian. These rules attributed to the early church thinker, reformed heretic and founder of at least one monastery in Africa seek to keep the monk away from any sort of temptation, especially of the carnal kind and encourage great humility. Augustinians believe that all possessions must be shared in such a way that each monk receives no more than what he needs, but acknowledge that a monk from higher society will have need more than a monk from a poor background.
Augustines are studious and allow a certain degree of freedom of thought. Historically, they became organised into proper orders in the thirteenth century and became important in preserving knowledge through the Middle Ages.
(health and squalor)

Monastery of St. Martin
St. Martin of Tours was born to pagan parents, but became a Christian at an early age. He joined the Roman army at age 15 and was later assigned to a garrison in what was then Gaul as a cavalry officer. Humble and generous, he refused to have his servants wait on him and once gave half his cloak to a beggar.
After being thrown out of the Roman army for perceived cowardice—his faith prohibited him from taking part in a battle—he studied under Saint Hillary and later did much to convert Roman pagans, sinners and followers of the Arian Heresy.
Martin later took up life as a hermit, but when the Bishop of Tours died he was chosen as his successor. Humble Martin did not want that title and stayed in the wilderness, but when Rusticus, a wealthy citizen of Tours claimed that his wife was ill he rushed to the city to see her. When he arrived he was caught and consecrated against his will.
St. Martin of Tours is the patron saint of horsemen and the poor.
(horses, squalor)

Monastery of Our Lady of Chartres
This monastery is intended to protect and service pilgrims to a Marian shrine rather than to house members of a specific religious order.
It is said that the druids in Chartres had foreseen that they would once come to worship a yet unborn woman and her son, and that they constructed a statue of the Virgin Mary and the infant Jesus long before they had heard of Christ.
When apostles did arrive, they were welcomed and the druids gladly converted.


BYZANTIUM
I only made one monastery for Byzantium, but obviously there could be some for different saints.

Orthodox Monastery
The monks and nuns of the Orthodox Church live even more secluded lives than their Catholic counterparts and do not take any part in the lives of laymen. This means that they do not teach, preach or tend to the sick except among themselves, but they are by no means selfish. They help the common man spiritually by praying for his soul. The Brothers and Sisters have chosen a life of asceticism and service to God, and they enjoy a great deal of respect for this.
(law+happiness?)

[Ranika]

If there were multiple monastaries for Catholic factions, the Gaels shouldn't have monastaries to specific saints except Padraigh (Patrick). Otherwise, they had;

Monastary of the White Oak; Technically a monastary to Saint Patrick, it was a dual monastary that housed both monks and nuns, and the order was legendarily founded by Saint Bride, Patrick's favored student. It was found around a great white oak that was originally a pagan Irish holysite, to convert the nearby families, which was successful. The order did little specific; they produced doctors, missionaries, but most often intended to do general good works and assist however was needed.

Monastary of the Green Cross; The Order of the Green Cross was actually a vaguely military facility, founded by Saint Finbar in Connaght after his conversion by an unnamed priest. Saint Finbar was a soldier, and an aristocrat. The order was a kind of forerunner to later military brotherhoods, with looser rules and hierarchy; the aristocracy in the regions would sometimes prove their devotion by 'joining' the monastary, ostensibly, as a 'lay brother'. They would provide arms and armor, and were called 'Criosakinna'; 'Cross-Kin' or 'Christ-Kin'. They would also wear a veil of chain armor or scales, to hide their face, representing the surrender of themselves and their personal glory for the good of the church and the Christians in the region. Also was founded the concept of Christian 'Rastriagha', contemplative 'berserkers' who spent their lives in study and learned self-control and the ability to enter a trance-like state described as 'physical emptiness'. This building, in game, would be meant to train the Rastriagha. As an aside, the 'green cross' was eventually absorbed into the Templar, but existed longer. The association with green and Catholic-Irish stems originally from this order. In Scotland, the Criosakinna and Rastriagha never really caught on, but these monastaries did exist, and the monks inhabitting them would have been some manner of 'warrior monks', but don't know if that's good enough for a unit (considering they only appeared to have ever fought pagan Picts, and maybe some Norse).

Monastary of the Ascended Virgin; Similar to a saintly dedication, but to Mary. The order was founded at Paroghan hill, the site of a Marian vision. It was the first monastary in Ireland built in the 'traditional' sense. Earlier monastaries were like small villages founded around the hermitages of the green martyrs; hermitic monks who went into the wilderness. They would be a series of hovels. This monastary was a large square edifice mostly made of wood, reinforced with a thin stone outer wall. This monastary was essentially a type of hospital, and others of the order sprang up in other regions to assist with illness and the many wounded and infirmed spawned from wars with Norse invaders.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Thanks that's good info. Monasteries will be implemented in such a complex manner if there's enough room for it with the building complex restrictions. At the moment we're discussing several new ideas for assimilation of conquered people and various other ideas which may take up more building complexes than our original plan. Hopefully, though, we'll be able to implement a sweet set of monasteries to make the game more exciting.

[Ragnor_Lodbrok]

Will these monasteries be restricted to one or more provinces or will they be like any other building?

[Rodion Romanovich]

Some different approaches are considered. If there are monasteries like say "Hagia Sofia" it would be illogical to have more than one, whereas others that represent a religious order are more logical to have available everywhere.

[GoreBag]

In Scotland, the Criosakinna and Rastriagha never really caught on, but these monastaries did exist, and the monks inhabitting them would have been some manner of 'warrior monks', but don't know if that's good enough for a unit (considering they only appeared to have ever fought pagan Picts, and maybe some Norse).

Is that to say, though, that such a class of warrior should not appear in Dal Riada? I mean, a great deal of the game's progress is counter-factual. Is the time period too late to include the Scots Rastriagha, given that the idea could have caught on, but never did?

[Ranika]

The Rastriagha, yes (that was an early early dark age development, and the original intent of the monastary), though the Criosakinna came into existence only shortly before the start of the game (they had existed for some time, but only in this period did they really begin to organize much), so I suppose they'd work. However, the Picts did have 'berserkers', though they were of a non-religious nature.

[Archbaker]

My previous post was not supposed to have that huge font size.


MORE HAPPINESS BUILDINGS NEEDED
For the Muslim factions, how about some of those gardens you can still find all over the Iberian peninsula? They would make me happy?

Speaking of this, what sort of building is "herbal medicine"? Also a garden?

I noticed that some of the units are said to have longswords. Did these really exist this early, or are you using the word to describe long single-handed swords? I don't think the latter is semantically wrong, just not the usual definition which is why I ask.

I was thinking Asturia could have Knights of Santiago/St. James as a local variant of Templars/Hospitallers/Teutonics.

[GoreBag]

Colloquially speaking, all 'longswords' were one-handed. Celts did make a longer sword, but I don't think it quite measured up to medieval longswords. They did use some of those swords with two hands, though.

[Ranika]

In terms of 'longswords' for Gaels, this is usually a reference to either copies of viking swords (which are not as long as later medieval 'longswords'), or earlier, indigenous Gaelic 'long' swords (still in use in this period as well), which are of about the same length as viking swords, but in some regions had extended grips so they could be used in two-hands, an outgrowth of similar Celtic swords from a much earlier period (they'd been used mainly in Ireland, parts of Britain, and parts of central and eastern Europe, specifically by the Lugians). They would be 'longswords' in this meaning, even though they'd not be as long (in terms of the blade) as their latter day equivalents.

[Spongly]

I always thought a "longsword" was a Renaissance English name for a two handed sword. The following are all of a guy working from a 15th or 16th century "longsword" fighting manual...

http://www.thearma.org/essays/newstancepics/VDPDrs.jpg

http://www.thearma.org/essays/newstancepics/LP3q.jpg

[Ranika]

As Neongod said, it's colloquial. Meaning it's local expression. A broadsword, for example, is technically just a one-handed sword with a blade slightly wider than its contemporary equivalents, which were most rapiers and similar. The schianova (German backsword), anracleigh (Irish backsword), arucludd (Scottish broadsword) are all 'broadswords', in this meaning of the word. However, broadsword was also applied, earlier, to swords with a wide (broad) lower portion that tapered to a point in a triangular fashion. Ergo, 'longsword' (which does appear in languages of the period in a literal sense) in this time period simply means a sword longer than other contemporary weapons. Since most swords of the era are comparatively short, swords like the athclwth (Welsh-Norse imitation sword), cleighda (Irish indigenous 'long' swords) the lannlinda (Scot-Pict; it's literally 'Blade-Long', an imitation of Anglo-Saxon swords), spatha (old Roman cavalry swords; adopted as infantry swords too, and used widely in various imitations and variants in much of Europe; an outgrowth of late continental Celtic and then German swords) the many variants of viking swords, are all 'longswords', on the merit that they have longer blades.

[GoreBag]

http://www.thearma.org/essays/newstancepics/VDPDrs.jpg

Those types of weapons are more colloquially referred to as "great swords". Depending on its make, however, it may or may not be a German zweihander.

[Archbaker]

"Those types of weapons are more colloquially referred to as "great swords". Depending on its make, however, it may or may not be a German zweihander."

Yes, but in Specialised English (history, smithing, reenactment) it is mostlycalled a bastard sword or longsword. This is based on my own amateur frequency analysis.

In other periods, shorter swords were referred to as longswords because they were longer than the swords people were used to, then, like Ranika said.

I think Zweihander--when used in English--refers mainly to the really big ones with a second crossbar on the blade. There are also German texts about a "Langenschwert" which is used in two hands, but short enough to carry from the belt unlike the Zweihander.

Heh. I don't know a lot. I learned a lot from just asking that question and reading your replies.

[Csatadi]

I finished with the Magyar tech tree. Use it at your own risk. :cool4:

Magyars
=======
Note: the Magyars lived in tents called jurta, plural jurták. This is important to all the 'buildings'.
- Shrine to Úristen (+10 happiness, requires town), Sacred groove of Úristen (+20 happiness, requires large town), Sanctuary of Úristen (+30 happiness, requires city).
- Shrine to Boldogasszony (+10 happiness, requires town), Sacred groove of Boldogasszony (+20 happiness, requires large town), Sanctuary of Boldogasszony (+30 happiness, requires city).
Note: Úristen means word by word 'Godlord', Boldogasszony means 'Happywoman'. We have only traces of the old religion.
If you use the RTW type shrines Úristen should be a law-type god, and Boldogasszony a fertility or mother type goddess with public health bonus.
Note: Ancillary (priests to both): Táltos (+1 influence, +1 public health, maybe a little healing after battles)
Note: the old god were called later 'the god of the Magyars'. We don't know any personal name to Him, maybe He hadn't any.

(- Forest clearings (+5 farming, available from start in most provinces - high bonus to indicate how an important improvement this step means compared to no farming buildings), Farms (+8 farming), Crop rotation (+11 farming).)
- Bigger and bigger herds: (more and more 'farming' bonuses)
Note: in the Steppes there weren't large forests and in this era the Magyar agriculture was not such great.
Note2: all the nomadic people had limited agriculture instead of great farms they had many herds.

- Paths, Mud roads
Note: does they mean the basic roads? I suggest level 1 roads.
- Trader (+20% trade), Market (+40% trade), Merchant (+60% trade)
- Port, Shipyard
- Blacksmith (+1 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Master blacksmith (+2 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Armorer (+1 to all armor, will NOT require blacksmith in order to be constructed), Master armorer (+2 to all armor)
- Salt mine (+1 mining), Large salt mine (+2 mining), Copper mine (+2 mining), Large copper mine (+4 mining), Silver mine (+3 mining), Large silver mine (+6 mining), Gold mine (+4 mining), Large gold mine (+8 mining). All mines require their respective resources in the province in order to be possible to build.
- Wooden pallisade, Wooden wall, Large wooden wall (possible to move on top of it), Stone wall (possible to move on top of it)
Note: the nomadic people didn't build walls, but if others are able to build the Magyars should, too.
- Muster field (slav axemen (servants) with lower stats (like at Schytians), slav spearmen (servants) with lower stats, peasants if you use them)
Note: the servants' weapons should be cheap, but I can imagine any type of them.
- Practise target [may called also Bowmaker] (+1 missile weapon xp), Archery range (+2 missile weapon xp), Masters of Archery (+3 missile weapon xp)
Note: I put here the 3rd level. It does not need Bowmaker.

- Stables (Magyar horse archers {Magyar lovasíjászok} [light horse archers, no armor, spontoon {fokos- see the pictures}, fast, good stamina], Kopjások [medium cavalry, sabre, bow, lance, shield], Chosen Magyar Horse Archers {Válogatott magyar lovasíjászok} [sabre and bow, very-very good leather armour, elite, good stamina- the same like the Scythian nobles]. But the noble word is anachronistic in this era.
Knights {Lovagok}: western type knight unit, ZOR in all the western Catholic territories including Hungary. They should be cost 20% more than their reasonable value.
Note: I don't see any reason separate the Magyar, Kabar and Székely horse archers. In the text can be written to mention their nations. They should NOT be ZOR armies the Magyars in the game can settle in any part of the map.
Note2: I didn't find anything about some heavy cavalry from the 9-10. century. If the player want them he can hire mercenaries.

- Cavalry training field (+1 to cavalry xp, requires Stables), Cavalry training grounds (+2 to cavalry xp, requires Cavalry stables)

Instead of more happiness buildings (I cannot imagine anything.) I suggest an ancillary, the 'Regös'. It is like the celtic bard, and should give +1 influence and +5 happiness. They should come very easy. Otherwise the Tavern is acceptable. Sometimes one have to accept the unacceptable.
I suggest in general the Magyars should be at a power level 30-40% of the Khazar empire.
Representing the raidings Magyar horse archers (rebels) may appear in the western countries and in Byzantium.
Symbolizing the Magyars who remain in the eastern Steppes can be rebels in Etelköz, Levedia (the 2 original M areas) and in the Caucasus (the Szavárd Magyars).

[GoreBag]

Yes, but in Specialised English (history, smithing, reenactment) it is mostlycalled a bastard sword or longsword. This is based on my own amateur frequency analysis.

I don't think it's a bastard sword - it's too long. I'm sure you've heard of a hand-a-half sword, right? That handle's way too big.

[Archbaker]

I don't think it's a bastard sword - it's too long. I'm sure you've heard of a hand-a-half sword, right? That handle's way too big.

I notice that now.

I started reading discussions about this a few years back, and I came to the conclusion that nobody knows exactly what a bastard sword is. You don't become a weapons expert from lurking on message boards, but to the best of knowledge it could mean:

- Any longsword

- A sword useable in one or two hands (which is also true for some longswords)

- A 1 1/2-handed longsword hung from the saddle

- A longsword that tapers toward the end

However, museums use the term about swords with certain Oakeshott numbers, and the handle on the picture is too long for it to be called a bastard sword by most standards.

At least we've established that these terms are ambiguous ~;)

[GoreBag]

At least we've established that these terms are ambiguous ~;)

Well, they're called "bastards" for a reason, I guess.

[Ranika]

Of ships, what are planned?

Also, on structures; Gaels, Saxons, and the Welsh all had fairly large schools after the introduction of Christianity. They were mainly outcroppings of monastaries though, as they were all run by the church; students would spend some months or even years at them being educated, in hermitage. If it were possible to have an upgrade of monastaries to a 'hermetic school' of some sort, that'd be nice, since it'd be different than 'academies', and display a different type of development in educational systems in the region; it is appropriate they have some teaching structure though, they weren't an uncommon feature of the region. Further, the lack of much the region can build makes it seems backward, which isn't true at all; the isles were more developed than large chunks of Europe because it hadn't been ransacked by invaders until the vikings (discluding Saxons and the like; they didn't really destroy overmuch, more just conquered it), and even the vikings only tended to decimate small regions, rather than the huge swaths of lands the barbarian invasions did to Europe. While, ultimately, Europe would overcome the region in terms of development, at its outset, Britain and Ireland were centers of Christian learning and enlightenment; it seems unusual they don't have schooling or similar structures.

[Ranika]

Bumping this out of sake of pointing out that Gaels/Welsh/Saxons lacking schools is incorrect, and that a fair solution to differentiate them from the rest of Europe is by having their schools as upgrades of monastaries (since they were almost invariably run by monks and nuns). Such places were the places of scribes, such as where the Book of Kells was produced, and also rather extensive schools where even lay members of society could be educated, and most aristocracy sent their children (at least in Gaelic society) to be better educated.

[edyzmedieval]

Oh, guys.

Regarding Bulgaria, they had Pagan Shrines also.
Our researcher says that the main god is Tangra.

Thought you'd like to know about it, cuz you said you need help with Bulgars. ~:cheers:

[Rodion Romanovich]

Yeah, thanks. We're planning a change of many tech trees in order to include many of the new BI features properly. Bulgars and other who converted during the period will have the option to choose between religions and so on. The magyar tech tree will, when ready, depend much on the conversion, but units will still mostly be the same.

[The Stranger]

does that means you guys are going to mess with the units to...and can some one send me the exp_descr_unit.txt so i can see wich new features are added so i can change that

[Rodion Romanovich]

The units file will remain pretty much the same.

This is what export_descr_units says:

;Data entries are as follows
; Type The internal name of the unit. Note this not necessarily the same as the on screen name
; dictionary The tag used to look up the on screen name
;
;Category and class define the rough type of the unit. They're used for setting some default attributes and for
;determining where units go in formation amongst other things such as tags to support AI army formation
; category infantry, cavalry, siege, handler, ship or non_combatant
; class light, heavy, missile or spearmen
;
; voice_type Used to determine the type of voice used by the unit
;
; soldier Name of the soldier model to use (from descr_models_battle.txt)
; followed by the number of ordinary soldiers in the unit
; followed by the number of extras (pigs dogs, elephants, chariots artillery pieces etc attached to the unit)
; followed by the collision mass of the men. 1.0 is normal. [Only applies to infantry]
; officer Name of officer model. There may be up to 0-3 officer lines per unit
; ship Type of ship used if applicable
; engine Type of siege engine used by unit
; animal The type of (non ridden) animals used by the unit
; mount Type of animal or vehicle ridden on
;
; mount_effect Factors to add when in combat against enemy units that have the specified mounts
; Up to three factors may be specified, which may be classes of mount, or specific types
;
; attributes A miscellanious list of attributes and abilities the unit may have. Including
; sea_faring = can board ships; can_swim = can swim across rivers
; hide_forest, hide_improved_forest, hide_long_grass, hide_anywhere = defines where the unit can hide
; can_sap = Can dig tunnels under walls
; frighten_foot, frighten_mounted = Cause fear to certain nearby unit types
; can_run_amok = Unit may go out of control when riders lose control of animals
; general_unit = The unit can be used for a named character's bodyguard
; cantabrian_circle = The unit has this special ability
; no_custom = The unit may not be selected in custom battles
; command = The unit carries a legionary eagle, and gives bonuses to nearby units
; mercenary_unit = The unit is s mercenary unit available to all factions
;
; formation soldier spacing (in metres) side to side, then front to back for close formation
; followed by the same measurements in loose formation.
; followed by the default number of ranks for the unit
; followed by the formations possible for the unit. One or two of
; square, horde, schiltrom, shield_wall, phalanx, testudo, or wedge
;
; stat_health Hit points of man, followed by hit points of mount or attached animal (if applicable)
; Ridden horses and camels do not have separate hit points
;
;Details of unit's primary weapon. If the unit has a missile weapon it must be the primary
; stat_pri From left to right
; attack factor
; attack bonus factor if charging
; missile type fired (no if not a missile weapon type)
; range of missile
; amount of missile ammunition per man
; Weapon type = melee, thrown, missile, or siege_missile
; Tech type = simple, other, blade, archery or siege
; Damage type = piercing, blunt, slashing or fire. (I don't think this is used anymore)
; Sound type when weapon hits = none, knife, mace, axe, sword, or spear
; Min delay between attacks (in 1/10th of a second)
; stat_pri_attr
; primary weapon attributes any or all of
; ap = armour piercing. Only counts half of target's armour
; bp = body piercing. Missile can pass through men and hit those behind
; spear = Used for long spears. Gives bonuses fighting cavalry, and penalties against infantry
; long_pike = Use very long pikes. Phalanx capable units only
; short_pike = Use shorter than normal spears.
; prec = Missile weapon is only thrown/ fired just before charging into combat
; thrown = The missile type if thrown rather than fired
; launching = attack may throw target men into the air
; area = attack affects an area, not just one man
; spear & light_spear = The unit when braced has various protecting mechanisms versus cavalry charges from the front
; spear_bonus_x = attack bonus against cavalry. x = 2, 4, 6, 8, 10 or 12
;
;Details of secondary weapons. If the unit rides on, or has attached animals or vehicles
;then the secondary weapon details refer to their attacks. If the unit has missile weapons
;the secondary weapon will be the one used for melee
;If the unit has a primary melee weapon, it may have a secondary side arm
; stat_sec As per stat_pri (a value of no means no secondary weapon)
; stat_sec_attr As per stat_pri_attr
;
; stat_pri_armour Details of the man's defences
; armour factor
; defensive skill factor (not used when shot at)
; shield factor (only used for attacks from the front of left)
; sound type when hit = flesh, leather, or metal
;
; stat_sec_armour Details of animal's or vehicle's defenses (note riden horses do not have a separate defence)
; As per stat_pri_armour, except that the shield entry is ommited
;
; stat_heat Extra fatigue suffered by the unit in hot climates
;
; stat_ground Combat modifiers on different ground types. From left to right
; scrub, sand, forest, snow
; stat_mental The base morale level, followed by discipline and training
; discipline may be normal, low, disciplined or impetuous. Impetuous units may charge without orders
; training determines how tidy the unit's formation is. Discipline the response to morale SHOCKS
;
; stat_charge_distance Distance from the enemy that the unit will begin charging
; stat_fire_delay Extra delay over that imposed by animation, hetween volleys
;
; stat_food No longer used
; stat_cost Number of turns to build,
; Cost of unit to construct
; Cost of upkeep
; Cost of upgrading weapons
; Cost of upgrading armour
; Cost for custom battles
; stat_ownership List of factions and cultures that may have this unit

[The Stranger]

can you give me one unit as example

and explain the difference between these

schiltrom, shield_wall, phalanx

[Rodion Romanovich]

Schiltrom is not going to be used. shield_wall is a defensive formation where units with big shields go close together but they can't move when using the formation - it will be used by all units named something with huscarles or houscarles, for all others it's not yet planned. Phalanx will be used by the better spearmen, most of them should have a note in the tech tree about having phalanx formation if they have it.

Example 1 (note is_peasant attribute, which there's no explanation to ???! I wonder what it does... ):

type western peasant alemanni
dictionary western_peasant_alemanni ; Barbarian Peasants
category infantry
class light
voice_type Light_1
soldier western_peasant, 60, 0, 0.8
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_swim, is_peasant
formation 1.2, 1.8, 2.4, 2.4, 6, horde
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 2, 1, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 25 ,0.73
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, no, no, none, 25 ,1
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 0, 5, 0, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 2
stat_ground 1, -2, 3, 2
stat_mental 1, low, untrained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 72, 14, 20, 30, 80
ownership slave, alemanni, lombardi, burgundii


Example 2:

type levy spearman frank
dictionary levy_spearman_frank ; Levy Spearmen
category infantry
class spearmen
voice_type Light_1
soldier levy_spearman_barbarian, 60, 0, 1.1
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest
formation 1, 1, 2, 2, 4, square, shield_wall
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 11, 4, javelin, 50, 3, thrown, archery, piercing, spear, 25 ,1
stat_pri_attr prec, thrown
stat_sec 7, 4, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 25 ,0.73
stat_sec_attr light_spear, spear_bonus_4
stat_pri_armour 2, 5, 3, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 2, flesh
stat_heat 2
stat_ground 1, -2, 3, 2
stat_mental 5, normal, untrained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 333, 115, 40, 60, 370
ownership slave, franks

The sm_factions.txt file determines which units are horde units on the campaign map, so don't worry about that. But all units that we might want to make a horde of should have the can_horde attribute. So do can_horde attribute for all non-Christian cavalry units belonging to magyars, and all horse units and levy foot units for khazars and bulgars.