Faction symbols and banners [Archive]

Rodion Romanovich

06-05-2005, 14:55

Ok, I've made a test menu faction symbol for the Welsh:

https://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y191/LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix/symbol128_scythia.jpg

Do you like the border? The same border should probably be used for all the factions so if you think it's good we can decide to use it for all factions. Then I can make a template .psd file with it to use for the making of the remaining symbols. One thing I'm also considering is toning down the white background somewhat. It might be slightly to aggressive with RGB 255,255,255. Perhaps add some noise, then blur and play around a little to get a somewhat softer background?

Some more test symbols:
https://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y191/LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix/all_symbols_20050605.jpg
From left to right: Saxons, Saxons other version, Welsh, Danish, Scottish, Rebels

Note the two on the right have a different border. Is it better or worse than the other in your opinions?

oj121

06-05-2005, 16:57

Can you try and find a Welsh dragon that isn't on its fours like the modern flag? Older source i have studied, (cant remember which ones) talk of the dragon being on its hind legs, much like the English lion. IMO that welsh dragon just looks like the modern flag, be nice for some cool originality and a dark age aura.

Agraes

06-05-2005, 17:38

Here this Tudwal's Dragon likes it appears on the Tregor flag (Brittany), I have extracted it from 'Emblèmes et Symboles des Bretons et des Celtes' of Divi Kervala.

http://img296.echo.cx/img296/5643/tudwaldragon2ko.png

For the sutton hoo helmet I think it will be better to use a reconstitution of it, like this one : http://images.google.fr/imgres?imgurl=http://www.siue.edu/~ejoy/Sutton%2520Hoo%2520Helmet%2520Replica.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.siue.edu/~ejoy/eng505BeowulfBlog.htm&h=600&w=600&sz=46&tbnid=KXcjYKpVcZQJ:&tbnh=133&tbnw=133&hl=fr&start=5&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dsutton%2Bhoo%26hl%3Dfr%26lr%3D%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:fr:official%26sa%3DN

or http://www.great-britain.co.uk/regions/east-england/suffolk-goodhelmet.jpg

oj121

06-05-2005, 18:13

Try and post that dragon again, if its the one im thinking it is then i feel that may be a better image.

Just an idea, what about maybe using seals of themanjor monarchs involved as a faction button?

skeletor

06-05-2005, 22:22

Wow.... Our own forum, great!!! ~:cheers:

I'm not really sure about the Scot eagle (looks more like a turkey ~D ) for the faction symbol.. Does anyone know how old the Scottish Rampant Lion is?
(Red lion on yello background)

Allso Apostle mentioned
if all else fails Scotland will have to be a St Andrews cross.

For the Norse factions, i woldn't use the peagan symbols. These i think is mutch more apropriate for the rebels. By year 1000, most of the Kings and officials were christian, and there were alot of peagan revolt's.
I'm not really sure about the others, but Norway's last big peagan revolt was put down by force at the battle of Stiklestad in 1030ad, after that, Norway was considured all christian. I allso have some neat ideas for the rebelpeagan rebel banner's, if i can make it work. ~;)

Since the Norse factions at the startdate were mostly peagan, but at the end date very christian, i wold rather use important items for them all together.

Norway - as they were known for the best shipbuilders, we could use the unmistakable shape of a vikingship viewed from the front.

Swede - They could have the shape of a 2 handed axe, with a bent shaft, or a glorified drinking horn.

Danes - They could have their famous bronzehorns (lur's or woodwind). Most of the find's of these (4 in Norway, 11 in sweden, and 35 in Denmark.) dates back to the bronzeage 500 - 600ad, but they were very well kept, and used in ceremonys in the viking age.

As for the symbols/banners for the Norse, i can asure you that they won't be mistaken for anything other then norse..

-Skel-

skeletor

06-05-2005, 23:32

Welsh banner..
http://img166.echo.cx/img166/264/welchbanner1io.jpg

Scot banner..
http://img166.echo.cx/img166/295/blbanner0tk.jpg

Saxon banner.
http://img166.echo.cx/img166/6293/saxonbanner2tl.jpg

-Skel-

Jarlabanke

06-05-2005, 23:39

skeletor

06-06-2005, 09:29

You've gotten the battle at Sticklestad a bit wrong. Olav Haraldson (the holy), tried to reclaim the crown of Norway. The reason he wasn't popular to begin with was the methods he used when converting people. However he got beaten.
And this probably slowed down the conversion of Norway than the other way around.

Hehe, amazing how little i learned at school... Lucky for me, this is no history test, so Jarlabanke, what is your opinion on using headen symbols for the Norse factions??

-Skel-

Rodion Romanovich

06-06-2005, 12:57

Re Welsh dragon: I actually like the dragon on all fours a lot. I think your battle banner with it looks awesome, skeletor.

Does anyone in the team really think we should use the standing dragon instead? Of course, if we use it, we should change it to read. But I prefer the sitting one.

Re sutton hoo helmet: I actually think the broken one looks cooler than the reconstruction. The reconstruction looks too nice... Perhaps I should adjust the helmet so the color details are removed and it looks more stylized?

Re scottish eagle: I did the cutting a little carelessly but perhaps it'll look like a turkey even if I do it more carefully... So if you can get anything else I agree that would be better.

Re norse symbols: Ok, that sounds good too. So you mean we practically keep the Norwegian and Swedish symbols almost the way they were suggested above, and only change the Danish one?

Also I'd like to know if you like the borders I used for the symbols above. If nobody objects I think I'm going to use the one to the left in the test symbols pictures above as standard frame for all the symbols.

skeletor

06-06-2005, 14:48

@ LegioXXX

I was pretty satisfied with the Welsh banner, and the factionmark looks reakky good too.
- Maybe the other dragon can be used for the Scots, if thats not way off...
-If not, to make everyone happy, i could allsu add the other dragon for the small banners. ~:cheers:

I allso think the old sutton hoo helmet looks really good. It neads to be stillised anyway, and it gives a bether "darkage feeling". I think we should gå gor the gold one on dark gray bacground, sinse the welsh have white/red.

About the turkey, i didn't mean to make fun of your cutting, if you take a close look at it's head, you see what i mean ~:) .

For the Nose, i think we can agree on the vikingship for norway.
For sweden/denmark i thought of something like these:

http://www.gonorway.no/go/scandinavian_heritage/images/axebig.gif

http://people.freenet.de/hawkeyepike/images/vikhorn.gif

The borders looks smooth and fine (the four on the right) and i think we should use them. Great work!!
Imo we should male the images inside look more 3d, but that's probably the plan.

-Skel-

Afsin

06-06-2005, 15:58

[removed]

Rodion Romanovich

06-06-2005, 16:07

About the turkey, i didn't mean to make fun of your cutting, if you take a close look at it's head, you see what i mean ~:) .

No offense taken. I must admit though that I did the cutting quickly and some parts which shouldn't be cut were cut out, and parts that should have been cut weren't. I just wanted to quickly get a test pic so we could see if the idea would work. It didn't, at least not as faction symbol. However I like the battlefield banner you made from it. Perhaps if we use a more heavily edited eagle we could keep the battlefield banner which IMO looks very good.

For the Nose, i think we can agree on the vikingship for norway.

Yes, I agree. I'll try to design one today.

For sweden/denmark i thought of something like these:

http://www.gonorway.no/go/scandinavian_heritage/images/axebig.gif

http://people.freenet.de/hawkeyepike/images/vikhorn.gif

I think we should use the Thor's hammer for Sweden after all. I'll post a suggestion pic. It's symmetrical and quite stylized in itself so it'll probably make a better faction symbol.

The horn is good though. I'll try to edit it in size etc. and post a symbol made from the pic to see how it looks as faction symbol.

The borders looks smooth and fine (the four on the right) and i think we should use them. Great work!!
Imo we should male the images inside look more 3d, but that's probably the plan.

-Skel-

Ok, I've made a template .psd file for the frame now. In the middle I'll try to achieve more 3d feeling too.

Edit: Here's what I meant (example with Sweden using Thor's hammer):
https://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y191/LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix/symbol128_greekcities.jpg
Perhaps I should add a minimal drop shadow below the faction symbol to make it look like it's floating above the background?

Wikingus

06-06-2005, 17:42

LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix: The Thor's Hammer will do nicely I think. So we're looking at drinking horn for the Danes then? I would personally prefer the raven, but it is good nonetheless.

Some other worthy symbols often used by the Vikings:

The Valknut (Knot of the Valkyries, a symbol of Odin):
http://www.whitedragon.org.uk/northern/images/valknut.jpg
The three interlinked triangles present the 9 Norse realms.

Three drinking horns, another symbol linked to Odin (already used for EB for another faction, I believe, not sure though):
http://www.cuttingedge.org/Odin_Sumbol_3InterlockingHorns.jpg

Irminsul/Yggdrassill, the Norse world-tree:
http://library.flawlesslogic.com/irminsul.gif

skeletor

06-07-2005, 00:48

ScionTheWorm

06-07-2005, 01:08

I just tested something... It wold have been cool giving the Khazars colored glass in their banner. This is just an ugly test tho..

http://img166.echo.cx/img166/4306/fargebanner6qq.png

The cineese spoke of the pople living west of Armenia that were masters at meking lass.. What do you think?

Would that be realistic..? Doesn't give assosiations to the 9th century.. a darn thing if someone smashed it on the battlefield! but looks very cool though! :charge:

Rodion Romanovich

06-07-2005, 11:00

With the border fixed I think it would look cool. I didn't know you could have semi-transparent banners! If it's historically accurate, I think we could use it.

ScionTheWorm

06-07-2005, 11:08

Agree if historically accurate. Never been seen in any rtw mod before (I would believe)

skeletor

06-07-2005, 13:40

I don't think we can ever know if it's accurateor not. Most written stuff about battlebanners is mostly mentioned something like "butiful wth lots of gold and jewlwry"

Colored glass was seen upon as expensive jewlery along with stones, gold, and silver ect. so imo, it's not inaccurate. And the Khazars were one of the most wealthy pople of it's time, and it wold be cool to display that in the unit's/banners. If i dont get any protests, i will use the davidstar as mainsymbol for their banner.

It wold make our mod a little special too ~:)

- Should we use the davidstar as factionsymbol for the Khazars???
(adds more religious fanatism too them)

- Is it ok if i use a shade of orange as a themecolor for Khazars?

-Skel-

ScionTheWorm

06-07-2005, 13:58

- Should we use the davidstar as factionsymbol for the Khazars???
(adds more religious fanatism too them)

- Is it ok if i use a shade of orange as a themecolor for Khazars?

-Skel-

Yes and yes! I think it will look great too, but the motive musn't be too complex. Davidstar would look great. I think orange gives a good assocciation.

Agraes

06-07-2005, 14:15

I really like the Welsh Banner !

But for the Sutton Hoo helmet I agree with the fact he need to be stylized. Here I have another Eagle extracted from the same book, for the Scots.

http://img18.echo.cx/img18/2659/eagle5rf.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)
I hope it doesn't also look like a turkey ~D

http://img256.echo.cx/img256/2363/triskellhorse5tp.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)
This is a symbol I like so much. You may use it for a Celtic faction.

ScionTheWorm

06-07-2005, 14:17

http://img256.echo.cx/img256/2363/triskellhorse5tp.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)
This is a symbol I like so much. You may use it for a Celtic faction.
Wow! Would look great on shields that one.

Rodion Romanovich

06-07-2005, 14:18

@skeletor: I agree with most of what you said about the Khazar symbol. However, by orange color, did you mean the star would be orange too? If so, then I agree to orange. If not, then I think it would be hard to associate the faction symbol with the faction color.

skeletor

06-07-2005, 23:10

I think i nead others opinions on this ~:yin-yang:
http://img166.echo.cx/img166/936/khazarbanner11mt.png

-Skel-

ScionTheWorm

06-08-2005, 09:48

I think i nead others opinions on this ~:yin-yang:
http://img166.echo.cx/img166/936/khazarbanner11mt.png

-Skel-

Very very very nice!! I would reduce the number of colours in the star, but this definetly exceeded my expectations! The orange works great

Rodion Romanovich

06-08-2005, 11:30

I agree, very good! I think the number of colors in the star is ok. How should I convert that to a faction symbol button? Is it good if I make a background in silver inside the standard frame, then paint the edges of the star in brighter silver color and then add semi-transparent colored fields inside, where the metal structure would shine through?

skeletor

06-08-2005, 11:51

I think we should just have the silver star on an orang/bruwn background. Imo. you don't need the colored glass, or any other "art" on the symbol, just keep it plane and simple. I have allready cut the star out, and can mail it to you when i get home from work..

-Skel-

skeletor

06-08-2005, 22:56

- New Saxon banner in the post over..

-Skel-

ScionTheWorm

06-08-2005, 23:04

- New Saxon banner in the post over..

-Skel-
where?

skeletor

06-08-2005, 23:11

The 7'th post from top, where the other banners are posted..

Rodion Romanovich

06-14-2005, 11:18

Attempts at Khazar faction symbol: -- REMOVED --
Which one is better? I personally prefer the one to the left. Also, the background color might be bad. If you think so, please tell me a better RGB value for background.

ScionTheWorm

06-14-2005, 11:23

Nice. The one to the left yes. A little less saturation and a little darker background in my opinion. It seems to me like the lower tip of the star is skewed a little to the right.

Rodion Romanovich

06-14-2005, 11:53

New one: https://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y191/LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix/khazar.gif

The star is still skewed, I'll redo it later, this is just for example of the new color choice.

skeletor

06-14-2005, 12:19

Great, i really like that, the colorbalance is wonderfull. If this is the finished symbol, could you give it a bit of highlight opposite to the shadow? (filter - render - lightening effects)

That would be really nice. I'll start working a bit on the Khazar skins aside from the vikings (needs some variation), and the color you used is very mutch what i have imagened. Can you pls send me the RGB values :bow: ?

(The banner will be completely redone :)

EDIT: I think you should leave the star as it is. Gives some charm having it a tiny bit asymetrical ~;)

-Skel-

Rodion Romanovich

06-14-2005, 12:32

Great, i really like that, the colorbalance is wonderfull. If this is the finished symbol, could you give it a bit of highlight opposite to the shadow? (filter - render - lightening effects)

I tried using the lightning effects filter now, but it ended up looking strange. Is it totally unacceptable to have it the way it is, becuase it's hard to get the color right when using the filter. It makes the unlit areas darker, which means it's almost impossible to predict what color most of the symbol, in the middle, will get.

That would be really nice. I'll start working a bit on the Khazar skins aside from the vikings (needs some variation), and the color you used is very mutch what i have imagened. Can you pls send me the RGB values :bow: ?

RGB: 166, 124, 77

(The banner will be completely redone :)

I think the one you already did is cool. Is it possible to have different banners for different units? If so, I think it would be cool if at least some royal units kept the cool colored-glass banner even if you make a new one for the other troops.

EDIT: I think you should leave the star as it is. Gives some charm having it a tiny bit asymetrical ~;)

-Skel-

Ok ~D ~:cheers:

skeletor

06-14-2005, 15:06

I tried using the lightning effects filter now, but it ended up looking strange. Is it totally unacceptable to have it the way it is, becuase it's hard to get the color right when using the filter. It makes the unlit areas darker, which means it's almost impossible to predict what color most of the symbol, in the middle, will get.

If you work in layers, you can apply the filter only to the orange part, so that it won't affect the symbol. Allso keap the opasity low.

RGB: 166, 124, 77

thnx

I think the one you already did is cool. Is it possible to have different banners for different units? If so, I think it would be cool if at least some royal units kept the cool colored-glass banner even if you make a new one for the other troops.

I'm not sure, but it might be possible (eaglestandards for rome). Otherwise you have the general banner, unit banner, standard with banner. I will probably keep the star with the glass.. I haven't looked at the banners modells yet, but it might be possible to make more historical flags, instead of banners ect. ~:)

-Skel-

Rodion Romanovich

06-15-2005, 11:26

Ranika

06-15-2005, 11:39

For the Irish, I recommend the gold harp on a blue field; it's not totally accurate, but more accurate than any of the 'regional' flags (like the flag of Leinster; harp on a green field). Alternatively, the symbol of an upright spear with three coiled serpents below it could be used (such imagery was common in Ireland). There's also the symbol of a broken sword, spear, and shield beneath the Symbol of the Holy Trinity (three interwoven ovoid shapes, very common even today); this was very popular as a 'holy symbol', representing Christian Ireland defeating pagan invaders (this was a very common piece of symbolism that only grew more prevalent due to viking invasions, even after the invaders became Christians). In any event, you can't go wrong with Celtic Christian imagery; Ireland was the center of the Celtic Church, and they made a very big point of it in their banners and other war paraphanelia. More over, the Irish were constantly subject to changing borders, fickle loyalties between Gaelic tribes and Norse subjects, etc. The Celtic rite offered the only permanent, stable situation many Irish in the warring regions really ever knew, and, so, offered much of the only permanent symbolism. As an aside; I should note that the church in Ireland was not seperate from the Roman Church. Any doctrinal differences are purely myth from the Tudor period (to excuse setting up an Irish version of the Anglican Church). However, isolated from Rome, the Irish (like many other Catholics in isolated regions) diverged ritually; enough that they did take quite an amount of pride that their traditions and rituals originated in Ireland. However, the idea of a 'Celtic' church is still reasonable to state, considering no direct papal contact to Ireland occured from St. Palladius's mission to the 12th century; all relations went to the bishops in Britain and then to Ireland, and even from the 12th century on, it was usually sent through the communications of the various Templar chapter houses (the Knights of the Green Cross in Ireland had been absorbed as a subset of the Templar by this time).

ScionTheWorm

06-15-2005, 12:39

This is more a matter of taste and style, but I think we should make the faction icons more "ancient", like having some cracks in them, roughing them up a bit. We could make a ps-layer that can be placed over all the icons when they are finished, making it a overlay or hard light layer.

skeletor

06-15-2005, 12:51

Ok I found out I could achieve a lighter upper left corner without getting the color in the middle changed by using the dodge tool. I think it worked well, I'll upload the new symbol so you can have a look at it. Unfortunately it seems like there are some server problems with photobucket where I've hosted previously. If the server won't come back up today I'll register an account elsewhere for image hosting.

Cant wait ~D
I use Imageshack.us

This is more a matter of taste and style, but I think we should make the faction icons more "ancient", like having some cracks in them, roughing them up a bit. We could make a ps-layer that can be placed over all the icons when they are finished, making it a overlay or hard light layer.
Ditto!

I allso think that wenever there is an eaven choice between symbols, we should use the most religous one. This is the fanatics mod, and that should allso be reflectet ingame.

-Skel-

Rodion Romanovich

06-15-2005, 13:52

Some news on Khazar standard I found when searching for Khazar units info: the command had a standard consisting of a silvery mirror on a long pole, according to contemporary Arab records. Don't know if this info is useful...

ScionTheWorm

06-15-2005, 14:27

I request a irish banner and faction symbol, same for scots (except banner)

Rodion Romanovich

06-15-2005, 15:02

Ok, I'll make an Irish one with the harp or broken sword, and a scottish one if I can find a better eagle.

Rodion Romanovich

06-15-2005, 15:05

New Khazar faction symbol:
https://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y191/LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix/60008f38.gif

Old one reposted for comparison:
https://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y191/LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix/khazar.gif

I'll post another one with added cracks etc. soon.

skeletor

06-15-2005, 15:15

Looks bether, more "allive"... Filter - texture - texturize - [sandstone with relief and scaling on allmost lowest] might work to give theold look. If you can't do the cracs, send a sample to me, or scion, and we fix. ~;)

You can then use the "crack" layer for all..

-Skel-

Rodion Romanovich

06-15-2005, 16:45

All faction symbols I've made so far (some edited with the new 3d-look and new frames etc.):
https://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y191/LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix/ALL_20050615.jpg

Upper row from left to right: Scots, Irish, Khazar, Norway
Bottom row from left to right: Rebels, Saxons, Sweden, Welsh

Please give comments for how I can improve these. I'm personally not pleased with all the symbols, only the Scottish and Khazar symbol feels good enough so far IMO. Saxons and welsh are good IMO, but saxons should perhaps get a slightly different color. Also I'm considering to change the color of the scottish background as there are already so many blue symbols.

I can't fix the crack layer you want. If I make a new layer photoshop just says I can't apply the filter texturize because the layer is empty. Only way seems to be by affecting the existing layers. Skeletor, can you try to apply the filter on one of the faction symbols I've posted here to show me how you want it to look?

ScionTheWorm

06-15-2005, 18:40

GoreBag

06-15-2005, 19:26

I think the Welsh one is the best. As for asymmetry...I vote against it. No nation would like to be seen behind an asymmetrical object as a banner when the symbol is intended to have been symmetrical.

Rodion Romanovich

06-16-2005, 10:50

Okay I think this came out pretty good. I was thinking about a logo for the mod, and got a viking symbol and found a cemetary cross with christ, and I combined the two. Made a background (the "shield"), layered it all up and made some cracks on it. Then I found an axe and filtered it a lot so it would fit. This is what I came up with, and I'm pretty happy with it. Quite fotogenic ;)
Of course you may not like it, so this is just a suggestion. I think combining vikings, christianity and war like this works well :) can be used as a logo for the mod maybe. Haven't worked so much with the title, but anyway I would like to hear what you think.

http://img262.echo.cx/img262/9392/logotest3iv.th.jpg (http://img262.echo.cx/my.php?image=logotest3iv.jpg)

Edit: when I think it over I think the title should be much better, will work on that after some feedback (tomorrow)

Wow, impressive!

In a way it looks like it could both be a pagan and a Christian symbol, depending on how you look. The snake is also a Christian symbol so it's not incorrect as a crufix, and at the same time the guy could be Loki at the tree and that makes it entirely pagan.

Only thing I'm wondering about is if you've made it transparent etc., and how it looks on top of one or two loading screens. Or will you add a frame or outer glow etc? Personally I think an outer glow could work well for this one.

Rodion Romanovich

06-16-2005, 11:23

Some new, hopefully improved, versions of faction symbols:

https://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y191/LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix/ALL_20050616.jpg

Upper row (left to right): Scots, Welsh, Khazar, Saxons version 2
Bottom row (left to right): Rebels, Saxons version 1, Sweden version 1, Sweden version 2

I'll redo the Irish and Norwegian symbols, the last ones didn't feel right IMO. Also they should perhaps be a little more detailed. Can someone get hold of concept art for Irish and Norwegian symbols?

Some comments on my own decisions: Thor's hammer can't be made looking good in yellow, so I'm using silver and blue instead for Swedish symbol. Scots: I could also make one with an entire eagle, not just the head, and fit the new better head (with some heavy editing of course) on top of the old scottish eagle body used for the battle banner.

Rodion Romanovich

06-16-2005, 11:45

I don't know if this broken sword on green background is historical etc., but thought it looked cool for the Irish:
https://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y191/LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix/irish.jpg

ScionTheWorm

06-16-2005, 12:08

Wow, impressive!

In a way it looks like it could both be a pagan and a Christian symbol, depending on how you look. The snake is also a Christian symbol so it's not incorrect as a crufix, and at the same time the guy could be Loki at the tree and that makes it entirely pagan.

Only thing I'm wondering about is if you've made it transparent etc., and how it looks on top of one or two loading screens. Or will you add a frame or outer glow etc? Personally I think an outer glow could work well for this one.

Yes it's very modifyable, I've sort of made the whole thing in photoshop exclusively, so all sorts of colours etc. could be applied to it. It will also be as nice whatever background it will be on, and it's quite large in size so it can be resized or whatever. I think it would work better on a background other than white, will make an example.

I was quite happy with this one so excuse my overexcitement ~:)

https://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y191/LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix/ALL_20050616.jpg

I have no idea about the historical accuracy, but I think the Scots and the Welsh is good. I think the rebels is quite similar if not the same as the one in vanilla, which is a nice one but I would prefer another one just for the sake of the feeling. I think the others are a little asymmetrical, I think they should be 100% symmetric. But the results is going to be really great. Can I lay some finish on them when they are done?? Please... ~D

Rodion Romanovich

06-16-2005, 12:20

Can I lay some finish on them when they are done?? Please... ~D

Sure, I don't know how to use the cracks so it's best if someone who knows it does it!

Any suggestions for better symbol for rebels?

As for the assymmetry in the coloring of the saxon symbol, it's due to the conversion to jpg-format. I don't think the Swedish one is assymetrical either ~:confused: (unless in the second one where I accidentally made a layer that shouldn't have been included visible, with the effect that the cutting looks bad, but please ignore that and pretend the cutting is as good in that one as in the other one when judging the symbols). But the Khazar symbol is still assymetrical. I just made it quick and by hand... The welsh one is still just a test version so it might also be assymetrical, but it can be fixed. I won't do it unless you all like the symbol itself as I'm slow and not too experienced at photoshop graphics...

BTW in the cases where there are two symbols I'd like to know which one you like most (or hate least... ~D ) so I know how to proceed...

ScionTheWorm

06-16-2005, 12:42

Just to give you the feeling with the cracks I made this:

http://img137.echo.cx/img137/3882/sc291vv.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

I think it worked very well for the welsh one, but for the scottish one it more looked some american patriot thing. You should tone down the colours, for instance make the blue more gray-blue. But I can do that when finishing and making them in the same style. I think thors hammer will look great when it have some cracks and stuff. Keep up the good work!

Edit: I like the red saxon one. You should apply some more patterns to it, like the thors hammer (yes like the one with patterns very much ~:cheers: )

Ranika

06-16-2005, 13:18

A splintered sword, shield, or spear, (or all three) beneath a cross or triune symbol, is a common Irish symbol from the period (mind you; the Dal Riadans (Scots) are also ostensibly Irish during the period, and used similar imagery). Similarly, a horizontal broken sword with three entangled serpents over it, or a spear over three serpents, was also fairly popular. I like the cracked wood background of the Welsh. Backgrounds like that help the symbol stand out; it looks much better done.

For the Irish, I should also note, green is not associated with the Irish at this time (that came about in the middle ages, and was reinforced during the Victorian conquests; the Knights of the Green Cross, a Gaelic subset of the Templar, had green crosses instead of red; slowly, green became associated with Catholic Irish; during Cromwell's excursions in Ireland, the color was reinforced as a symbol of Irish Catholics). While there are some green banners (such as the flag of the Laigini; Leinstermen), more commonly associated are yellow, red, and blue.

skeletor

06-16-2005, 13:20

Looks good. If your a bit gentle with the highlight, and don't tutch the outer ring, it wold look perfect. It's a good layout for the other symbols...

-Skel-

ScionTheWorm

06-16-2005, 13:28

i think the outer ring should have some cracks.. but not red as here though. i don't think this one is the one we should use, will make a better one.

skeletor: what do you think about the logo-thing?

skeletor

06-16-2005, 14:02

ScionTheWorm

06-16-2005, 14:19

I think the logo is superbe if it works ingame, looks very clean and professionally. I'm not sure about the dark writing in the dark loadingscreens, but if you put some glow around it, i guess it will look great...

~:cheers:

-Skel-

Forget about the writing, I'm making a new one. Just to put the symbol in context really. Quite happy with the symbol, though we should maybe drop the axe?

Rodion Romanovich

06-16-2005, 14:31

i think the outer ring should have some cracks.. but not red as here though. i don't think this one is the one we should use, will make a better one.

I like the cracks, perhaps they're a little too heavy though... Are the cracks a separate layer?

If you want to simplify your work and be able to apply different things to different parts of the image you might want my template psd-file. I've separated the outer ring etc. in different layers in that template, so it's really easy to work from. Also, for the inner circle, the background, here's the system I've been using to get the 3d-look (that isn't part of the actual template and has to be redone each time background color is changed):
1. create circular selection from pixel (2,2) and to pixel (126,126).
2. fill with the color that'll be used in the middle of and most of the background
3. add inner glows/high.
4. simplify layer
5. rotate layer contents 180 degrees
6. use the dodge tool in upper left corner once over a larger area, then once more during the area which will be most lighted.

Also I wouldn't mind if someone else made all or most of the logos, because I'm not very good at it and when I do something useable, it takes me like 3 hours or so... If not, I'd at least like some concept art (in worst case at least something made in paint with the pen so I know at least a little how you mean), and suggestions on colors. Can we make a list of the basic colors for all faction symbols?

Here's the start of that list:
* FACTION - PRIMARY COLOR - SECONDARY COLOR
* Welsh - White with small trace of red - Red
* Saxons - Red - White with small trace of yellow
* Scots - Grey-blue - Brown-grey
* Irish - ?
* Asturia - ?
* Normans - ?
* Sweden - Blue - Grey
* Norway - ?
* Denmark - ?
* Khazar - Brown - Silver
* Maygars - ?
* Bulgars - ?
* Byzantines - ?
* Papal states - (how about a crucifix, or a crucifix with one sword on each side of it as symbol btw?)
* Holy roman empire - black and a sharp yellow (former byzantine eagle)
* France - ? (can someone get hold of a picture of the fleur de lis?)
* Lotharingia - ?
* Al Andalus - ?
* Abbassids - ?
* Rebels - ? (new suggestion for symbol needed... maybe a thinner hay-fork head? or a complete hay-fork? or a fist? how about choosing their colors as off-white, brown and grey - the standard colors of peasant clothing?)

Red and blue is already overused. We should try to favor green, purple and yellow symbols whenever there's a choice between one such and one with red and/or blue.

Rodion Romanovich

06-16-2005, 14:33

A splintered sword, shield, or spear, (or all three) beneath a cross or triune symbol, is a common Irish symbol from the period (mind you; the Dal Riadans (Scots) are also ostensibly Irish during the period, and used similar imagery). Similarly, a horizontal broken sword with three entangled serpents over it, or a spear over three serpents, was also fairly popular. I like the cracked wood background of the Welsh. Backgrounds like that help the symbol stand out; it looks much better done.

Unfortunately I think it would be hard to have symbols with 3 items beneath a fourth... Any faction symbol idea that wouldn't be historically incorrect but that only contains one or maybe, at the most, two items and that looks good both stylized and more complex?

ScionTheWorm

06-16-2005, 14:44

It's hard not to use red too much....

* Irish - yellow and blue? :)
* Asturia - yellow?
* Normans - blue?
* Norway - red/brown?
* Denmark - white/black?
* Maygars - orange/dark green?
* Bulgars - yellow/brown?
* Byzantines - purple hehe

ScionTheWorm

06-16-2005, 14:48

skeletor

06-16-2005, 15:05

Forget about the writing, I'm making a new one. Just to put the symbol in context really. Quite happy with the symbol, though we should maybe drop the axe?

Agree on that, I find the dobble headed axe is a bit cartoonish. (It was created for more efective lumbercutting, and little handy in battle.)

My sugestions:

* FACTION - PRIMARY COLOR - SECONDARY COLOR
* Welsh - off-White with small trace of red - Red
* Saxons - wine Red - dark gray, with some yellow
* Scots - Greyish blue - Brown-grey
* Irish - Greyish green - Brown-grey
* Asturia - clear Red - silver
* Normans - Darkblue - off white
* Sweden - grayish light Blue - brown
* Norway - grayish red - brown
* Denmark - lightgray - brown
* Khazar - Brownish orange - Silver
* Maygars - dark pink with a tutch of blue - gold
* Bulgars - brownish - yellow - silver
* Byzantines - deep purple - silver
* Papal states - White - gold, A gold cricifiks
* Holy roman empire - black - gold
* France - blue - silver
* Lotharingia - dark green - gold
* Al Andalus - clear Green - silver
* Abbassids - Black/dark grey - silver and gold

Get the fleur de lis HERE (http://images.google.no/imgres?imgurl=http://www.fleurdelis.com/graphics/fleur10.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.fleurdelis.com/fleurs.htm&h=348&w=330&sz=19&tbnid=J6nDumLNYyAJ:&tbnh=116&tbnw=110&hl=no&start=2&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dthe%2Bfleur%2Bde%2Blis%26hl%3Dno%26lr%3D%26sa%3DG)

EDIT:

Dame Scion, i saw your colorsugestion after posting....This is a bit creepy..
:thinking2:

That poster looks amasing btw. great!

-Skel-

Rodion Romanovich

06-16-2005, 15:09

Made some more:

https://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y191/LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix/NEW_20050615.jpg

Three examples of french symbol, one example of Byzantine symbol

Rodion Romanovich

06-16-2005, 15:12

Movie poster style (almost like passion of the christ or some disney thing)

http://img89.echo.cx/img89/6387/logoposter5uz.th.jpg (http://img89.echo.cx/my.php?image=logoposter5uz.jpg)

For testing the image against black, as well without axe and with another title. A little glow around it all.

~:cool: ! One thought: if you removed the upside down axe at the bottom, perhaps you could add two swords, one of each side of the symbol to at least keep some of the war message in the symbolics?

skeletor

06-16-2005, 15:13

Imo the byzantines should have a purple color with gold cross..

I think the french with only one flower looks best, but i wold use a silver one instead..

-Skel-

ScionTheWorm

06-16-2005, 15:16

One huscarl-style axe, one viking sword. it will be great!

Thanks, actually didn't think of that.

Rodion Romanovich

06-16-2005, 15:21

Imo the byzantines should have a purple color with gold cross..

I'm working on a new byzantine symbol

I think the french with only one flower looks best, but i wold use a silver one instead..

If they have silver, that would make them exactly the same as Sweden in faction colors... M:TW also used yellow/gold so if it's supposed to be a fleur the lis it might be more correct to have it in yellow. ~:confused:

Rodion Romanovich

06-16-2005, 15:30

So far we have:

SYMBOLS WHERE WE AGREE:
* Welsh - Off-white with small trace of red - Red
* Scots - Grey-blue - Brown-grey
* Khazar - Brownish orange - Silver
* Byzantines - deep purple - silver
* Papal states - white - gold (crucifix)
* Holy roman empire - black - sharp yellow/gold (former byzantine eagle)
* Lotharingia - dark green - gold
* Al Andalus - clear Green - silver
* Abbassids - Black/dark grey - silver and gold

SYMBOLS WHERE WE DISAGREE:
* Saxons - Red - White with small trace of yellow
* Saxons - wine Red - dark gray, with some yellow

* Irish - yellow and blue? :)
* Irish - Greyish green - Brown-grey

* Asturia - yellow?
* Asturia - clear Red - silver

* Normans - blue?
* Normans - Darkblue - off white

* Sweden - Blue - Grey
* Sweden - grayish light Blue - brown

* Norway - grayish red - brown
* Norway - red/brown?

* Denmark - white/black?
* Denmark - lightgray - brown

* Maygars - dark pink with a tutch of blue - gold
* Maygars - orange/dark green?

* Bulgars - brownish - yellow - silver
* Bulgars - yellow/brown?

* France - blue - silver
* France - blue - gold

* Rebels - grey background - black fist/hayfork? off-white background and brown, black or grey fist/hayfork?

BTW, new for byzantines:
https://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y191/LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix/byzantines.jpg

Just a test symbol I made for rebels:
https://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y191/LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix/rebels2.jpg

skeletor

06-16-2005, 17:53

Nice..

I think that it wold be cool to have religious rebel factionmarks. Preferably peagans.

Rodion Romanovich

06-16-2005, 19:15

Nice..

I think that it wold be cool to have religious rebel factionmarks. Preferably peagans.

Ok, but what do you suggest for the main rebel symbol? It's the one that will be used in the menu, and that will be used in the diplomacy screen, and one top of the screen when you end the turn and it goes through all factions. Basically, it appears everywhere where it's the rebels in general rather than a specific rebel faction. Is a fist a good idea, or is a hayfork better? The fist I made might be in a too different style compared to the others, but it shouldn't be impossible to fix a stylized type of fist if wanted.

ScionTheWorm

06-16-2005, 21:35

Okay I think this is far away from what you guys are thinking on, but I thought something like this would be a nice "finish" for the faction icons. It's more steely than stony as you see, which I think sets the right mood and accociations. So I'll take my chances and post it. :bucktooth:

http://img101.echo.cx/img101/5691/icons20xi.th.jpg (http://img101.echo.cx/my.php?image=icons20xi.jpg)
Bysanthine, saxons and irish.
Nb: this is really not supposed to be finnished, just to give the example.
hmm Maybe it should be brighter...

New movie poster-style with weapons behind
http://img206.echo.cx/img206/6411/logoposter25xg.th.jpg (http://img206.echo.cx/my.php?image=logoposter25xg.jpg)

Edit: oh some pixeldust around the axe there, will be removed of course.

First attempt on forum sig (hehe maybe waaay to flashy, but have to advertise for this thing, don't we?)
http://img208.echo.cx/img208/304/aofsignature6hl.th.jpg (http://img208.echo.cx/my.php?image=aofsignature6hl.jpg)

GoreBag

06-16-2005, 23:29

I think the two metallized shields need more of a rust or tarnished look, but beyond that, I love both ideas for images.

Ranika

06-16-2005, 23:41

ScionTheWorm

06-17-2005, 01:13

I think yellow and blue or red should be used for the Irish; they're properly associated colors for the time period. I'd use yellow for the field, and blue for the objects depicted. If possible, the Scots and Irish symbols should be on a wood or leathery looking texture (just look painted on).

I think wooden would work. The irish I now posted above is a shield which I didn't think about after I was done; as the other ones are just sort of plates. I think it looks good though, but was finished before I noticed your colorsuggestion (other way around blue/yellow).

Ranika

06-17-2005, 06:29

With the harp like that, that's fine. I think it looks good; has a weather beaten look, which fits with the harsh weather and terrain of the British Isles. However, I'd remove the metal boss in the center, so you can see the whole design. The design is slightly late period (it was present before, but not in any official usage, since there was no actual high king, though a lot claimed the title). The high king who claimed the throne and could actually be arguably seen as the king of all Ireland (though he never did solidify rule of Leinster, and died before he could set up a permanent government, though Mael almost did that before his death) was a member of the kingdom of the Eoghanaghta (Munstermen, though some southern tribes of Connacht felt related to the Eoghanaghta and fought for them as allies from time to time), and specifically a Dal Caissian tribesman (Brian Boroime). His symbol was a spear over three serpents (this banner would be worn on the back; Gaelic standard bearers wore their flags in a harness, worn over the back). The symbol of the Eoghanachta was a yellow harp on a red field with a silvery triune symbol on the left, right, and upper side.

skeletor

06-17-2005, 07:50

Oooops, I just fell in love with some pixels looking like metal plates :help: . That filtering is awsome.

Have you tested them in the interface, i wold love to see them in there...

I'm taking the liberty to post your forumsig. in the sig. thread.. Think it looks awsome too, and it works great at the forum. ~:cheers:

[I have resized the sig, and hosted it as .jpg. It was 308 kb, now it's 36 kb, and fits in the forum. Cool with the background-color]

-Skel-

Rodion Romanovich

06-17-2005, 10:58

http://img101.echo.cx/img101/5691/icons20xi.th.jpg (http://img101.echo.cx/my.php?image=icons20xi.jpg)
Bysanthine, saxons and irish.
Nb: this is really not supposed to be finnished, just to give the example.
hmm Maybe it should be brighter...

I think it's great as it is, but for practical reasons it could perhaps be a little brighter so that the faction colors are more easily distinguishable. But only a litte...

New movie poster-style with weapons behind
http://img206.echo.cx/img206/6411/logoposter25xg.th.jpg (http://img206.echo.cx/my.php?image=logoposter25xg.jpg)

:thumbsup:

First attempt on forum sig (hehe maybe waaay to flashy, but have to advertise for this thing, don't we?)
http://img208.echo.cx/img208/304/aofsignature6hl.th.jpg (http://img208.echo.cx/my.php?image=aofsignature6hl.jpg)

I think it should be the size that skeletor made it, only he has to export it again due to forum rules... See the signature picture thread...

ScionTheWorm

06-17-2005, 12:23

skeletor

06-17-2005, 12:46

Too bad... If you had been spitting out unit's as fast as you have done now, we wold probably been able to release before summer ends ~:cool: ..

On the style of the faction symbols, i like it very mutch, and wold love to see that style on the other ones. U might allso come up with some uniqe styles for some factions to make them look native (hint, hint) ~:)

I think the same thing goes for the user-interface. If possible, the viking factions could have their menu-bar ornamented with woodcarvings from vikingships, the Brit's have tribal patterns aso. (Atleast bether then the "wood and stone" in Chivaleric... But i trust yo'll do that anyway)

Maybe :duel: I'll leave all the British/scot/Irish alone, and when i finish some more "commun" modells, i'll send them to you for skinning..

I have looked at some of the campaignmap unit's, and they'r mutch like the regular unit's (3d .cas files)

-Skel-

Rodion Romanovich

06-17-2005, 12:49

I'm going to have two jobs this summer, so I won't be able to work that much as I have done until now. Therefore I would request if I could work on the faction symbols and the user inteface (icons and all that stuff) for a little while, rather than producing units. Of course I would like very much if noone touched the scots, saxons and irish until I get to work again ~;)

- As I understood you liked the symbols-style (?), so I can make the rest. Thats a lot of fun actually. I'm using everything legio have made until now, but rearranging it a little.
- User interface: roman style -> dark age style and so on.. will be fun.
- Forum-graphics: when finished with faction symbols and stuff I can make a header for each faction for presenting it. Just a thought.
- New sprites for campaignmap. Don't know how this works, but somebody should do this too. New diplomats, assassins etc. Should be done when the faction-themes are done (symbols, etc.)

Ok, that sounds good. Once again I offer to send you the template I've been using when making the symbols if you want to be able to easier apply separate filters/effects/stuff on the frame and the inner parts. Tell me if you want it. Also remember to keep the symbols simple so they look good even when resized to the smaller sizes. The smallest symbols are so small it would be ridiculous to adapt the larger ones so they look good even with the smallest size, but at least the medium size used in the game should have to look good and distinguishable from other symbols IMO (the medium size occurs most often in-game, whereas the large one is only displayed on loading screens and the smallest is only shown beside player names in the multiplayer and custom battle screen).

- New sprites for campaignmap. Don't know how this works, but somebody should do this too. New diplomats, assassins etc. Should be done when the faction-themes are done (symbols, etc.)

Perhaps also fix the graphics for the campaign map terrain. If we use more dark-looking symbols etc. we should probably remove some of that cartoony look on the campaign map.

Also, for the menu background, we need to make a movie file to replace the roman one. I haven't looked into it much but I'm not sure I have any program that can create a movie of the correct file type. If we want we can replace the movie by an own movie with only ONE frame to get an image instead of a movie, but I think we could otherwise have a movie created from some in-game fighting scenes with some filtering. The movie is supposed to be in 1024*768 resolution.

ScionTheWorm

06-17-2005, 13:18

On the style of the faction symbols, i like it very mutch, and wold love to see that style on the other ones. U might allso come up with some uniqe styles for some factions to make them look native (hint, hint) ~:)

Yes the posted ones is not perfect yet, and unique styles shouldn't be a problem. I will make examples and post them as usual, so you can come with feedback for improvements. My ultimate motto is "no hard feelings" whatever you might think about it ~:handball:

I think the same thing goes for the user-interface. If possible, the viking factions could have their menu-bar ornamented with woodcarvings from vikingships, the Brit's have tribal patterns aso. (Atleast bether then the "wood and stone" in Chivaleric... But i trust yo'll do that anyway)

I never had very high thoughts about the chivaleric "wood and stone", looks a little nineties too me ~D. I think it's going to be nice-looking, will make unique to cultures as you describe. (maybe more neutral icons though, like the "reqruit"-icon; not unique to each culture, but more netural. But if that's unacceptable I guess I'll do that too). This will be a proccess too, got to have feedback.

Maybe :duel: I'll leave all the British/scot/Irish alone, and when i finish some more "commun" modells, i'll send them to you for skinning..

We'll take this later, it's not that important too me. I just love skinning those guys ~;)

I have looked at some of the campaignmap unit's, and they'r mutch like the regular unit's (3d .cas files)

Okay. Maybe this is more work than I first thought hehe... that will be for later anyway.

Ok, that sounds good. Once again I offer to send you the template I've been using when making the symbols if you want to be able to easier apply separate filters/effects/stuff on the frame and the inner parts. Tell me if you want it.

If I'm going for this style, It's a lot of different templates, and I cut out your faction symbols and place them into mine.

Also remember to keep the symbols simple so they look good even when resized to the smaller sizes. The smallest symbols are so small it would be ridiculous to adapt the larger ones so they look good even with the smallest size, but at least the medium size used in the game should have to look good and distinguishable from other symbols IMO (the medium size occurs most often in-game, whereas the large one is only displayed on loading screens and the smallest is only shown beside player names in the multiplayer and custom battle screen).

Okay I see. So there is three images; large, medium and small? It will be taken care off, just have to look into it. Layers rocks!

Medium sized is the most important... good to know.

Perhaps also fix the graphics for the campaign map terrain. If we use more dark-looking symbols etc. we should probably remove some of that cartoony look on the campaign map.

Okay. I'll look into this in some weeks, if not anyone does it before me. Would be cool to uncartoonize them, giving our mod a completely special feeling.

Also, for the menu background, we need to make a movie file to replace the roman one. I haven't looked into it much but I'm not sure I have any program that can create a movie of the correct file type. If we want we can replace the movie by an own movie with only ONE frame to get an image instead of a movie, but I think we could otherwise have a movie created from some in-game fighting scenes with some filtering. The movie is supposed to be in 1024*768 resolution.
Okay, I would really love to do this hehe... but in my opinion we should use some screenshots... maybe a unit or a person in the unit made in shadows or something. would be some work to make this a movie, but would be great however. but for this, we should make some loading screens, and have some units finished we could use.

skeletor

06-17-2005, 13:27

Perhaps also fix the graphics for the campaign map terrain. If we use more dark-looking symbols etc. we should probably remove some of that cartoony look on the campaign map.

I have some friends working in themovie/tv business, so i guess they could help us editing/cutting/converting to the right format ect. I'll get back to that when we decide what to have. But, i didn't really like qality of the the RTR battlemovie.. If we could do bether, it wold be great.

-Skel-

ScionTheWorm

06-17-2005, 13:44

I have some friends working in themovie/tv business, so i guess they could help us editing/cutting/converting to the right format ect. I'll get back to that when we decide what to have. But, i didn't really like qality of the the RTR battlemovie.. If we could do bether, it wold be great.

-Skel-

No, no battlemovie, that would just a bad version of playing the game yourself... I think more of a vanilla style movie with vague animations, we'll have to edit frame by frame.

I don't know exactly which format it supports, but if for instance mpg, that would just be making the movieframes (jpg etc) and using a tool called mpgencode. Lots of freeware commandline tools for doing that. I think the movie(s) should be a repeat-thing (not a 3 min movie), like the ones in vanilla.

ScionTheWorm

06-17-2005, 15:59

Rodion Romanovich

06-17-2005, 16:06

Stumbled over this norse symbol, thought it could look cool as a viking faction symbol. Just an option to the longboat which I haven't managed to look cool yet.
http://img204.echo.cx/img204/5154/icons34vu.th.jpg (http://img204.echo.cx/my.php?image=icons34vu.jpg)

Perhaps you shouldn't work from my longboat. Perhaps I should make a new one first for you to start from? I just made that longboat by hand just to see how it would look. It probably needs some patterns, a sail this time, and so on.

I think Norway should have a longboat unless it's completely impossible. But the symbol you posted could be used for Rus. I don't think we have any appropriate symbol for Rus yet.

ScionTheWorm

06-17-2005, 16:09

Rodion Romanovich

06-17-2005, 17:17

I first tried out yours, didn't work. Tried a boat from the front, didn't work that well either. But anyway, saxons got steel, irish got wood... what will vikings have?

Edit: I agree, will do the longboat (from front I think). Theme/background?

Actually, how about water as background? Or maybe make the symbol look like metal but with drops of water on it? Could be an interesting theme for all vikings, as they all attacked over the sea ~:)

GoreBag

06-17-2005, 18:24

I first tried out yours, didn't work. Tried a boat from the front, didn't work that well either. But anyway, saxons got steel, irish got wood... what will vikings have?

Beer? No, I think water is a good idea.

skeletor

06-17-2005, 19:03

beer.... best idea ever.

Norwegian faction: longship sailing in beer
http://img166.echo.cx/img166/7042/lll1uc.png

GoreBag

06-17-2005, 19:06

http://img166.echo.cx/img166/7042/lll1uc.png

YES! Sailing RULES!

Rodion Romanovich

06-17-2005, 19:14

beer.... best idea ever.

Norwegian faction: longship sailing in beer
http://img166.echo.cx/img166/7042/lll1uc.png

~D rofl!

It actually looks really good and definitely useable. If the beer isn't beer, it's an ocean at sunset. Also, a longship from the side like that is probably better to use than one from the front like I tried. It tends to get tricky to see what it is when resized to the smaller sizes. Great job! ~:cheers:

Krusader

06-17-2005, 22:44

Nice banner for Norway.
Although red would suit better ~D if I am to be pricky.

Good work!!

ScionTheWorm

06-18-2005, 16:21

beer.... best idea ever.

Norwegian faction: longship sailing in beer
http://img166.echo.cx/img166/7042/lll1uc.png

Nice!! I really like the colors, maybe the faction color should be beer-brown! :medievalcheers:

I think that works better than from the front, I guess the only thing is that vikings should have their own "theme background"

ScionTheWorm

06-19-2005, 11:20

Ok when making the faction symbols I'll wrap the images inside some border around like it's common to do in mods. The images will still be somewhat steely and rust or wooden, but a little nicer and not so dark.

I thought of having a metal border around the steel ones, here you have gotten the idea already:
- Saxon
- Normans
- Holy roman empire
- France
- Byzantines
- Rus
- Rebels

Wood with painted motives, appropriate border around:
- Irish
- Scots
- Viking factions (could also be a leather-theme?)

Own background for the muslim factions, no idea yet here.
Own fancy background for Khazar
Own light background for papal states
Don't know about the others.

Will make a border around every one, and the border might have a trace of a secondary faction color if it looks nice. They will be somewhat photographic (if that's a word), but not so dark as I've posted already, and more detailed.
Of course less detailed for the smaller versions.

Agree? It would be nice to have some background suggestions for the ones I do not know yet, since I'm not that into the cultures.

My opinion on a good faction symbol is that it should alone make a person wanna play that faction

Rodion Romanovich

06-19-2005, 11:31

Ok when making the faction symbols I'll wrap the images inside some border around like it's common to do in mods. The images will still be somewhat steely and rust or wooden, but a little nicer and not so dark.

I thought of having a metal border around the steel ones, here you have gotten the idea already:
- Saxon
- Normans
- Holy roman empire
- France
- Byzantines
- Rus
- Rebels

Wood with painted motives, appropriate border around:
- Irish
- Scots
- Viking factions (could also be a leather-theme?)

Own background for the muslim factions, no idea yet here.
Own fancy background for Khazar
Own light background for papal states
Don't know about the others.

I think themes should be decided by what culture they'll have in-game, or alternatively by religion or by their real-life culture.

by religion:
- saxons, welsh, irish, scots, asturia, hre, france, lotharingia, papal states
- bulgars, byzantines
- magyars, swedish, norwegians, danes
- khazars
- rebels

by real-life culture:
- saxons, welsh
- irish, scots
- asturia
- hre, france, lotharingia, papal states
- bulgars, magyars
- khazar
- byzantines
- swedish, norwegians, danes
- rebels

Will make a border around every one, and the border might have a trace of a secondary faction color if it looks nice. They will be somewhat photographic (if that's a word), but not so dark as I've posted already, and more detailed.
Of course less detailed for the smaller versions.

I agree, sounds good.

My opinion on a good faction symbol is that it should alone make a person wanna play that faction

Yes

ScionTheWorm

06-19-2005, 12:19

I think themes should be decided by what culture they'll have in-game, or alternatively by religion or by their real-life culture.

by religion:
- saxons, welsh, irish, scots, asturia, hre, france, lotharingia, papal states
- bulgars, byzantines
- magyars, swedish, norwegians, danes
- khazars
- rebels

by real-life culture:
- saxons, welsh
- irish, scots
- asturia
- hre, france, lotharingia, papal states
- bulgars, magyars
- khazar
- byzantines
- swedish, norwegians, danes
- rebels

By religion would be very nice I think, but at the same time I feel papal states and irish should be very different in themes. Therefore I vote real-life culture.

ScionTheWorm

06-19-2005, 15:16

I think irish and scots should have their own unique theme.This is my first candidate. Quite thick borders, but it looks nice when shrinked to a smaller size (see thumbnail). Here it is in working-size and factionpresentation-on-forum size

http://img218.echo.cx/img218/3984/aoffactionicons29vm.th.jpg (http://img218.echo.cx/my.php?image=aoffactionicons29vm.jpg)

Rodion Romanovich

06-19-2005, 16:32

Wow, that's impressive! I definitely think that's the way to go!

ScionTheWorm

06-19-2005, 20:35

edited away (ugly symbol)

Ranika

06-19-2005, 22:22

I very much like the Scot and Irish faction symbols. They do well both culturally and religiously; knotwork like that didn't exist until the Christian era, as it was used by Celtic monks to fill in book margins, so it works on both levels.

ScionTheWorm

06-19-2005, 22:29

puh... was afraid historical correctness was going to catch up with me..

Ranika

06-19-2005, 22:32

No, it's quite accurate enough. I like it, at least; knotwork was very big in the period (just look at the Book of Kells, Cycles of Dartmouth, Hanrahan's Lament, etc.).

GoreBag

06-19-2005, 23:59

Wow, I LOVE those icons! They must be kept.

ScionTheWorm

06-20-2005, 01:30

yes I find the saxon helmet extremely hard to do, almost impossible when it comes to colors and cartoonizing it a little. the problem now is mostly getting the other icons in the same style as the gaelic ones, the metal-shine I had before (bysantine saxon rebels) is for instance not near at all.

up the irons

GoreBag

06-20-2005, 01:53

The Welsh one is pretty groovy...the Saxon, I agree, isn't quite right, but is that marquee-, almost tapestry-style artwork around the border, or is it just rust? It's a nice touch, in any case.

I think the Saxon helmet has too much rust on it. it's the centrepiece of the image, and should reflect that; you'd think those Saxons would maintain the main image a little better than that, eh?

Overall, though, these improvement are coming in in leaps and bounds. I applaud your efforts and hope to see new icons soon.

skeletor

06-20-2005, 07:32

Wow, those are really great...

ScionTheWorm

06-21-2005, 16:03

Okay let's call the irish and scottish symbol finished and let me present my first candidate for norse factionsymbols.

http://img186.echo.cx/img186/652/norsesymbols4sh.th.jpg (http://img186.echo.cx/my.php?image=norsesymbols4sh.jpg)

King Ragnar

06-21-2005, 16:20

Looking very good ~D

Rodion Romanovich

06-21-2005, 17:08

I agree, very nice work! The Rus should probably be in the same theme as Norway, Denmark and Sweden (I noticed now that I forgot them on the by-culture list above). Now that Sweden has an axe instead of thor's hammer, all of these motives are available to Rus (feel free to choose whichever you like most when you do the Rus symbol):
1. thor's hammer (perhaps with lighting bolts around?), maybe with snakes hugging the hammer (perhaps use a narrower version that the one I used before).
2. yggdrassil (in case you didn't know, it's the big world-tree, but I guess you knew that already)
3. some horse motif
or
4. this one: http://img204.echo.cx/img204/5154/icons34vu.th.jpg

ScionTheWorm

06-21-2005, 17:29

do you have another suggestion..? tried them all out, I didn't quite get it to work except for the horsemotive, but it's a little boring...

skeletor

06-21-2005, 19:30

You never seem to stop amaze me Scion :medievalcheers:

Jarlabanke

06-21-2005, 20:08

As the Rus became chrisians before most Scandinavians did I wouldn't suggest using a pagan symbol. You could try one looking something like a picture of a small fortified town, hinting at the viking name Gårdarike.

ScionTheWorm

06-21-2005, 20:18

I doubt I'll get a town fit into it and look good at the same time. Remember these are very large versions... but I agree, because I would accociate norse mythology with scandinavia regardless if it was the same in russia. I wouldn't feel well if mjøllnir was used. at the same time I've always thought a horse in the factionsymbol was boring... the nr 4. to legio I don't think looks good inside this little thing, though it looked ok when I tried it.

Jarlabanke

06-21-2005, 21:08

Was thinking about something along the lines of these seals used by towns in medieval times. http://www.worcestercitymuseums.org.uk/content/plotpln/13th/13th102.htm
There are way better examples, but they don't seem to be on the net. However, as you see the point isn't getting the whole city, but a mere representation
And Kiev happens to have this quite famous gate:
http://www.hotels-kiev.com/gold_gate.htm
Otherwise you could use one of them Slavic helmets, they differed quite a bit in style from the ones usually associated with vikings.

ScionTheWorm

06-21-2005, 21:26

:ears:
http://img88.echo.cx/img88/6797/russymbol1wz.th.jpg (http://img88.echo.cx/my.php?image=russymbol1wz.jpg)

GoreBag

06-21-2005, 21:32

Those three icons kick ass. I don't have any other suggestions for the Rus icon, though...the medieval town idea was good, I thought, and you could always use a sword. Maybe a mailed fist or something? I can't think of anything particularly vikingish, sorry.

EDIT: And you just posted the helmet as I was typing this. Looks good.

Jarlabanke

06-21-2005, 21:41

Indeed it does.

ScionTheWorm

06-21-2005, 22:55

Allright some brainstorming now... I fooled around with this one for the papal states but I don't think its holy and perverse religious enough. If you have any ideas for papal states or other catholic factions, bring em on. I would like some appropriate latin writing around the border at least.

This is not finished and not a candidate.
http://img207.echo.cx/img207/130/prevaofpapal21vv.th.jpg (http://img207.echo.cx/my.php?image=prevaofpapal21vv.jpg)

btw the son of a gun is st peter

GoreBag

06-22-2005, 00:09

Wow. The second one is impressive. You really do have a knack for this.

ScionTheWorm

06-22-2005, 00:16

thanks can't keep myself from working on this now... I guess that papal states symbol looks better in thumbnail form than the large, because the papal symbol isn't quite right... hope it's historical accurate, just found it on the net after making the first version.

ScionTheWorm

06-22-2005, 01:40

Jarlabanke

06-22-2005, 10:21

The crossed keys are indeed the papal seal, but the guy standing infront of it looks more Roman than anything else.

Rodion Romanovich

06-22-2005, 12:03

Okay worked on the khazar rest of the evening, here is what I got. I'm going to redo it, but nice to get some thoughts around it.

1. David star the way to go?
2. Glass?
3. These colors or similar?

http://img202.echo.cx/img202/1356/prevaofkhazar6lg.th.jpg (http://img202.echo.cx/my.php?image=prevaofkhazar6lg.jpg)

Edit
Looking at it again.. The new one I'll make later will not be this bad.

1. yes
2. i like it
3. colors look persian/eastern, but they're fine

Many of the tips of the star are cut off, I don't think they should be.

ScionTheWorm

06-22-2005, 13:09

My candidate for the papal states is....
http://img204.echo.cx/img204/6530/prevaofpapal44wg.th.jpg (http://img204.echo.cx/my.php?image=prevaofpapal44wg.jpg)

ScionTheWorm

06-22-2005, 14:43

And my second try on Khazar...

Rodion Romanovich

06-22-2005, 16:16

Khazar is great, but I think it looks like the upper tip of the inner star is shorter than the others, is that correct? Otherwise it looks great! For the papal states symbol, it also looks like the cross isn't entirely in the middle (shouldn't it be moved slightly more to the left?) Otherwise it's good, the simplicity isn't necessarily a bad thing. If you'd like more complexity, you could add Jesus on the cross and make it a crucifix, but that really isn't necessary.

ScionTheWorm

06-22-2005, 16:33

agree, look again

Rodion Romanovich

06-22-2005, 17:21

That's better. I don't know if it would work, but how would it look if the spotted outer star would be in bright, shining silver? When zoomed out the spotted area doesn't look as cool as it does in the zoomed in one, when the spots look like holes, so I suggest a plain surface, but then probably with another material, might be better. If you choose silver, I suggest you make the silver more bright and shining for the outer star than the metal on the outer border, so that you can distinguish it clearly from the border. It's not necessary to do this change, but if you have time and want to I wouldn't mind seeing how it would look with those changes.

ScionTheWorm

06-22-2005, 17:24

I know, irritated me too. Already doing it ~:)

There..

Please help me with colors. I thought red and yellow looked too primitve and a little dull. I might do this one over again once more..

ps: every faction symbol will be redone and perfected for each relevant size, so judge it from the large size.. no quick scaling here.

Rodion Romanovich

06-22-2005, 18:31

Not what I meant, but the symbol above looks quite good IMo. What I meant was to use the brightest metal shine from the upper left corner of the inner frame as color for the entire star, but this might be even better. I like the green color you have behind the star, it's a really lovely color that would work very well as khazar faction color IMO, better than the idea with orange-brown.

Rodion Romanovich

06-22-2005, 18:36

:ears:
http://img88.echo.cx/img88/6797/russymbol1wz.th.jpg (http://img88.echo.cx/my.php?image=russymbol1wz.jpg)

Didn't see that one until now. I think it's great ~:cheers:

ScionTheWorm

06-22-2005, 18:56

Alexander the Pretty Good

06-23-2005, 01:09

Just how did you get that good!?! ~:cheers:

GoreBag

06-23-2005, 03:10

I like the first of the Khazar icons the best, but going with the last one wouldn't be a bad idea. Something about it just doesn't draw my attention like the others do...perhaps the lack of a central image? The 'star within a star' seems too...I don't know...small.

Rodion Romanovich

06-23-2005, 08:56

I'm not 100% happy with it.... I may do it again, please express your feelings... :yes: or :thumbsdown:? i can take it if you put a ~:) behind

It's a :thumbsup: already, but I was just curious to see if it would look even better with silver... Don't do it if you don't want to, we can undoubtedly use the current one.. ~:)

ScionTheWorm

06-23-2005, 19:41

Hope I got more of a silver feeling here ~:)

http://img223.echo.cx/img223/3762/prevaofkhazar43an.th.jpg (http://img223.echo.cx/my.php?image=prevaofkhazar43an.jpg)

*scion quite happy*

GoreBag

06-23-2005, 19:59

Now THAT does the trick.

Rodion Romanovich

06-23-2005, 20:48

Hope I got more of a silver feeling here ~:)

http://img223.echo.cx/img223/3762/prevaofkhazar43an.th.jpg (http://img223.echo.cx/my.php?image=prevaofkhazar43an.jpg)

*scion quite happy*

*LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix happy too* ~:cheers:

Great work Scion!

ScionTheWorm

06-23-2005, 21:21

skeletor

06-23-2005, 22:05

Sweeeeeeeeeet ~:cheers:

ScionTheWorm

06-23-2005, 22:57

~D :duel:

Done factions:
- Denmark
- Norway
- Sweden
- Irish
- Scots
- Papal States
- Khazars
- Novgorod

Can somebody please tell me some typical features for these factions:
- Magyars
- Abbassids
- Al Andalus
- Asturia
- Bulgars

(i.e. silver, leather, steel, glass, marble etc)

Maybe one or two quite like the khazars?

Rodion Romanovich

06-24-2005, 08:48

How would a shield like this make you feel? Can't find a good theme for french, HRE and normandy (more that should use the same here?).. it's a alterative shape, but can put something clothing or metal around if that's impossible thinking about rtw..

Factions that will use the same theme:
- French
- HRE
- Normandy
- Litho¤¤¤*can't remember but above italy*
...

http://img116.echo.cx/img116/2160/prevaoffrench5sd.th.jpg (http://img116.echo.cx/my.php?image=prevaoffrench5sd.jpg)
Unfinished so don't think about the details. actually the thumbnail looked quite nice to me when I saw it posted here, so I for myself like it.

ps, could also find a catholic theme for the round background...

*Really* sweet shield! The R:TW restrictions means you can't have anything protruding outside a circular shape. I don't know if it's allowed to have it the opposite way - i.e. having a symbol smaller than the circle. You can easily try it out by saving it as symbol128_scipii.tga.tga in the size 128*128 pixels and opening R:TW and starting a new scipii campaign. If it isn't possible you could always use some stuff to fill out in the background to make the symbol circular even though the main part of the symbol, the shield, isn't round.

Belatucadros

06-24-2005, 09:27

Magyars- steppe very simple steppe people, leather and horse as symbol

Krusader

06-24-2005, 12:40

~D :duel:

Can somebody please tell me some typical features for these factions:
- Magyars
- Abbassids
- Al Andalus
- Asturia
- Bulgars

(i.e. silver, leather, steel, glass, marble etc)

Maybe one or two quite like the khazars?

Abbassids had their capitals in Baghdad & Samarra, so something with sand or so?
---------------------------------
One Bulgar Khan named Krum routed and killed a big Byzantine army at Pliska in 811 and killed Emperor Nicephorus I. He made a drinking-cup out of the Emperor's skull and lined it with silver. Otherwise they were Orthodox (think so much later than 843)
First paragraph mentions early medieval Bulgar flag (http://www.bulgarianlondon.com/en_lon/uk/history/first_bulgarian_kingdom/kubrat.php)
---------------------------------
Al-Andalus:
Architectural pattern from Al-Andalus (http://www.islamnet.it/arte/architettura/800_600/al-andalus.jpg)
I've seen one drawing from a Reconquista battle where a Moorish armoured cavalryman has a shield with 3 crescents on it, like the Egyptian shield from M:TW. Although he could also have been a Arab mercenary.
---------------------------------
Asturias was very mountainous, so stone perhaps?

ScionTheWorm

06-24-2005, 12:53

Magyars- steppe very simple steppe people, leather and horse as symbol
http://img285.echo.cx/img285/4640/prevaofmagyar8vp.th.jpg (http://img285.echo.cx/my.php?image=prevaofmagyar8vp.jpg)

Maybe too primitive..?

skeletor

06-24-2005, 15:12

http://img285.echo.cx/img285/4640/prevaofmagyar8vp.th.jpg (http://img285.echo.cx/my.php?image=prevaofmagyar8vp.jpg)

Maybe too primitive..?

I Think it looked good, Primitive, but still you have the polished bronse horse.
The theme with the lether suits the Magyars imo.

-You could maybe add some vague ornamentation on the lether in the background if it doesn't get too small.

- Allso, the horse looks a bit tilted to the right side (might me because the tail dosn't have any highlight)

Btw, the Khazar one blew me away ~:thumb:

-Skel-

Rodion Romanovich

06-24-2005, 15:19

http://img285.echo.cx/img285/4640/prevaofmagyar8vp.th.jpg (http://img285.echo.cx/my.php?image=prevaofmagyar8vp.jpg)

Maybe too primitive..?

Actually, it works well, even if it's a simpler pattern than the others. It's a good theme for steppe nomads, even for steppe nomads who are on the way to settle down. Cheers, mate! ~:cheers:

Scion do you want me to check if the shield works with the R:TW engine or have you checked it yourself already?

skeletor

06-24-2005, 15:27

Eaven tho the Magyars were nomads, they had some good crafsmen, like those who made these in the 9th century

http://studentorgs.utexas.edu/husa/origins/magyarhist/magyar.hajkorong.gif

But anyway, they were pretty poor compared to Byzants, and Khazar, and the Arabs, so the leather is a good way to show that i guess.

Belatucadros

06-24-2005, 17:09

yeh, you listened to me...

IT looks great ~:)

ScionTheWorm

06-24-2005, 18:09

Taking your comments into account...
http://img132.echo.cx/img132/4860/prevaofmagyar20mp.th.jpg (http://img132.echo.cx/my.php?image=prevaofmagyar20mp.jpg)

Will bulgars have in the same style..?

Belatucadros

06-24-2005, 18:15

I was thinking they should.

ScionTheWorm

06-24-2005, 18:20

Scion do you want me to check if the shield works with the R:TW engine or have you checked it yourself already?

Yes, would you? Also, if you could get some specifications (imagewidth, height and other things if needed) for the various sizes (main menu, diplomacy screen, custom battle) it would be great...

And by the way, does images appear in the game like here, or does it anti-alias etc.?

Belatucadros

06-24-2005, 18:32

The main thing for the bulgars would probably be a horse too :embarassed:

http://img226.echo.cx/img226/7967/kukeri20pic0ce.jpg
This is a bulgar folklore mask..

ScionTheWorm

06-24-2005, 18:41

one horse max, maybe we can rather use this current one for bulgars. not any unique or typical weapons, helmets, shields, artefacts or anything?

Not so sure about that mask...

Belatucadros

06-24-2005, 18:43

Bulgars are a little hard to find stuff on......

Abbassids- Rich, knowledge center, so maybe a book or university.....

Belatucadros

06-24-2005, 19:05

alright redo on bulgars...

http://img153.echo.cx/img153/7525/1750rr.jpg
found in capitol in 900a.d

I have more if you dont like this one.

ScionTheWorm

06-24-2005, 19:12

Nice, can absolutly be used (trying now)

What are the other ones?

Belatucadros

06-24-2005, 19:26

http://img139.echo.cx/img139/307/1651ul.jpg
Shaman horse thing(before time though)

http://img117.echo.cx/img117/8523/1633ps.gif
Dragon?

http://img154.echo.cx/img154/4663/pliska20rosette4tk.gif
forgot what these are???

ScionTheWorm

06-24-2005, 19:35

no... tried them all but didn't look right..

Belatucadros

06-24-2005, 19:36

the first one didnt work?

ScionTheWorm

06-24-2005, 19:41

no... tried them all but didn't look right..

will maybe use the dragon in the background. any typical motives without finding images? except for horses ~:handball:

Belatucadros

06-24-2005, 19:56

WEll i have three more things...

Mabye you could use a lion??
Ive seen it on many bulgarian flags(ahead of our time though) and i think thats what bkb used in his medieval mod..

another thing that could be used is a bow, they were famouse for horse archers i believe.

http://img74.echo.cx/img74/6526/180pxmalayapereshchepinatreasu.jpg
Maybe this could work?????

ScionTheWorm

06-24-2005, 20:50

I'll redo the magyar (and bulgars). I don't really think the leather theme is working, too much native-american feeling.. I doubt they were so poor they couldn't afford a decent faction icon :wideeyed:

Anyway, for motives I think a lion will do the trick for bulgaria and that kind of bird skeletor posted for magyar.

:indian_chief:

Krusader

06-24-2005, 23:39

THE NAME OF KHAN KUBRAT first appeared in Byzantine chronicles about 632 when his tribe, the Unogonduri, threw off the Turkic oppression. He succeeded in uniting the Bulgar tribes in the lands north of the Caucasus, between the Kuban, the Sea of Azov and the Black Sea. For about three centuries the Bulgars roamed the steppes of today's Romania fighting with the neighboring nomadic tribes. Huns, Khazars and Turkic peoples invaded the lands of the Bulgars. And the Bulgar flag, a horsetail on a spear, was often seen cutting into enemy ranks during their raids into Byzantium in the Balkans.

In case u need a motive for Bulgars!!

ScionTheWorm

06-25-2005, 12:41

sweet

Rodion Romanovich

06-25-2005, 13:59

Yes, would you? Also, if you could get some specifications (imagewidth, height and other things if needed) for the various sizes (main menu, diplomacy screen, custom battle) it would be great...

And by the way, does images appear in the game like here, or does it anti-alias etc.?

OkK, I'll do it today. Here's what I already know: the largest symbol is 128*128 pixels. Open the Rome folder, then go to: Data\loading_screen\symbols. In there you can find them. The symbols may not protrude outside the outer part of the circular frame in the already existing symbols image files. I'm not sure about if they can be smaller than that circle, but in any case there's no anti-aliasing on the frame and the color black (RGB: 0,0,0) means transparent. The best way of acheiving a soft edge isn't by anti-aliasing but by having the outer part of the symbol being very dark and the loading screens and menu movies pretty dark too, which is how vanilla R:TW does. In any case, the symbols you've made so far, except for the shield, can all be made with a circular dark frame in a way that looks good in-game.

ScionTheWorm

06-25-2005, 14:06

checked it right now. those symbols actually have an alpha channel (channels->alpha 01 in photoshop). I guess this means there is one per icon, so the shields will be no problem. Not the irish/scottish/khazar edges either :)

Rodion Romanovich

06-25-2005, 19:32

Alpha channel? I tried making a symbol with black background and it didn't become transparent, the game cut exactly where the outer part of the border of the vanilla faction icons are. I've also tried making symbols with content outside that border but they ended up being cut off by the game. Before you do anything more I think you should test it in-game too. The 128*128 symbol is the one used on loading screens. To test it you simply replace the vanilla symbol with your own and start a custom battle.

You might wonder why it took me so long to test these things in R:TW. Well, it's because R:TW crashes to desktop on average 5-10 times every time I test something new. :furious3: This makes any modding at all extremely hard because I can't know if the error is caused by me typing anything wrong or if it's just a "normal" crash from the game. I'm not sure I can do the coding for this mod when R:TW behaves like that. Just editing a textfile with labels, the files that are translated by translators for different versions of R:TW, results in crashes for me. ~:handball: ~:mecry: ~:mad: ~:angry: :veryangry: :rtwno: :bigcry: :furious3:

I have a pretty decent knowledge of the files though, so I can help whoever fills my spot with that knowledge, and probably also keep doing the work on the .tga files for the new campaign map, but I can't do any of the testing and putting it together myself, I'll need help with that. As dedicated as I am to this mod project, I don't want to just give up and leave the rest of the team like this, I'll try to keep doing what I can and I'll also try to find a replacement who can take care of the parts of the work I can't handle myself. :stwshame:

ScionTheWorm

06-26-2005, 13:14

Rodion Romanovich

06-26-2005, 14:11

I had a problem when I modelled the units some weeks ago, that it went to blue screen 20-40 times a day, so I suspected some graphics program or something to be the thing to blame. 1. But are you saying that rtw crashes to desktop in unusual ways or are there typos in what you edit?

2. I'm starting to feel we need a bigger team, except for researchers. 3. When the campaignmap is finished, i guess there is a lot of work to do.

The alpha channel is something that you can edit in photoshop on the .tga-images (channels->alpha 01). White is visible, black is transparent; all these faction icons are a white circle with black around. But yes I will test.

1. when I just open the game to play it has been like that for the last three or so months. When I edit something, and KNOW I haven't made any typo (for example if I just open the file and edit one character in a text label that will be visible and isn't a label used in the game engine), it keeps locking up. Usually to test something I need around 5 starts every time, and to be sure it isn't the usual crashing I therefore have to restart the game around 10-15 times if it locked up, to be sure. Add to that that most crashes are severe enough to force me to restart the computer, and that the computer is quite slow (833 MHz CPU). Every such crash+restart takes around 7 minutes so to test just one thing I need 350 minutes = nearly 6 hours...

2. I agree. I'll try to find a way of getting more team members.

3. The .tga images almost take most of the time. The rest of the campaign map is a quite fast business if you can run the test quickly enough without any "usual crashes" and have a fast computer. Then there is all the small details that need to be edited, but I'd say that's a quite fast business too if you can have the ability to test things. The problem now with making the campaign map .tga images is that I can't run tests to find out about all the details that aren't documented (for example which ground types are illegal to use on a land tile and how cities will be positioned on the heights and ground_types maps. If the map_regions file is 300*200 pixels, then the other two maps are 601*401 pixels. It's hard to know where on the larger maps the cities, who correspond to 4 tiles on the larger maps, will be located. My guess is that the city will end up in the middle between 9 tiles on the larger maps, but then I need to know if there are any requirements for which ground_types that can't be used and if the disallowed ground_types can be used on the outer 8 pixels but not on the middle pixel, or if all 9 mustn't be of a disallowed type (disallowed types are for example dense forest and high mountaints, which become impassable terrain on the campaign map). If someone could run all the tests that I need, I can keep working on the campaign map images, but then when those are ready someone else have to do the testing and putting together of it. As I said I know most of the stuff but isn't sure about certain details, so anyone on the team could do these tests if I guide them.

4. btw I read about alpha now. It seems like it's a fourth value after the R,G and B values to denote opacity of each pixel. I didn't know about those things before, and I thought R:TW used the programming-wise much easier method of setting one color as fully transparent. Well, if there are alpha channels I guess that means it's possible to have semi-transparent icons if we want to... Probably not very useful but it might be... Also I didn't know .tga images could store alpha channels, I've programmed .tga readers myself and they only read 3 bits per pixel, not 4. ~:confused: So testing it in-game is perhaps necessary after all

ScionTheWorm

06-26-2005, 15:07

1. when I just open the game to play it has been like that for the last three or so months. When I edit something, and KNOW I haven't made any typo (for example if I just open the file and edit one character in a text label that will be visible and isn't a label used in the game engine), it keeps locking up. Usually to test something I need around 5 starts every time, and to be sure it isn't the usual crashing I therefore have to restart the game around 10-15 times if it locked up, to be sure. Add to that that most crashes are severe enough to force me to restart the computer, and that the computer is quite slow (833 MHz CPU). Every such crash+restart takes around 7 minutes so to test just one thing I need 350 minutes = nearly 6 hours...

Don't do it, dispose time on things that doesn't take that much time.. I would believe it is graphic-card related or something else if it's just that game and you have tried reinstalling it. Does this mean the campaignmap is very difficult to finish? I suggest we'll try to find a skilled scripter or tester or whatever you can add to your msn and test if that's the only option. 833 is low, I have 2.8 and have 3dsmax, adobe and rtw, opera and file manager running at the same time. That is doing my pc very slow of course, but it works.

2. I agree. I'll try to find a way of getting more team members.

Have to get Skeletors opinion on this, but unit modelling and skinning is the most time consuming part I believe.
I just cannot picture me and skeletor doing 300 units to even halfway 2006... hehe.
Ideally 2-3 skilled modellers/skinners would be great.

3. The .tga images almost take most of the time. The rest of the campaign map is a quite fast business if you can run the test quickly enough without any "usual crashes" and have a fast computer. Then there is all the small details that need to be edited, but I'd say that's a quite fast business too if you can have the ability to test things. The problem now with making the campaign map .tga images is that I can't run tests to find out about all the details that aren't documented (for example which ground types are illegal to use on a land tile and how cities will be positioned on the heights and ground_types maps. If the map_regions file is 300*200 pixels, then the other two maps are 601*401 pixels. It's hard to know where on the larger maps the cities, who correspond to 4 tiles on the larger maps, will be located. My guess is that the city will end up in the middle between 9 tiles on the larger maps, but then I need to know if there are any requirements for which ground_types that can't be used and if the disallowed ground_types can be used on the outer 8 pixels but not on the middle pixel, or if all 9 mustn't be of a disallowed type (disallowed types are for example dense forest and high mountaints, which become impassable terrain on the campaign map). If someone could run all the tests that I need, I can keep working on the campaign map images, but then when those are ready someone else have to do the testing and putting together of it. As I said I know most of the stuff but isn't sure about certain details, so anyone on the team could do these tests if I guide them.

I think I should keep myself to graphics only at the moment, and I don't have that much time as I've had earlier now. And I don't know that much about rtw details, as folders, campaignmap and stuff, but if it's concrete trivial tests you can post them and number them so I can have a look at it. If this is something you're going to need quite a lot, I suggest you find someone that can assist you more... like the msn-thing.

4. btw I read about alpha now. It seems like it's a fourth value after the R,G and B values to denote opacity of each pixel. I didn't know about those things before, and I thought R:TW used the programming-wise much easier method of setting one color as fully transparent. Well, if there are alpha channels I guess that means it's possible to have semi-transparent icons if we want to... Probably not very useful but it might be... Also I didn't know .tga images could store alpha channels, I've programmed .tga readers myself and they only read 3 bits per pixel, not 4. ~:confused: So testing it in-game is perhaps necessary after all
Yes I don't know much about tga, so I was afraid they all shared the same alpha channel or something, but it looks promising. Could ideally have any shape fitting into a rectangle as faction icon. ~D
That's how skeletor did that semi transparent khazar banner.

Sorry my english, I'm having a hangover...

ScionTheWorm

06-26-2005, 19:41

Rodion Romanovich

06-26-2005, 19:54

Works as I hoped and thought. ~D

http://img132.echo.cx/img132/3831/sc305xu.th.jpg (http://img132.echo.cx/my.php?image=sc305xu.jpg)

If you know it or doesn't use a long time to find out, can you tell me the paths to
1. All faction symbols, all various versions and such
2. User interface (posted some time ago in another thread I think)
Can't find it

Wow that's amazing! Cool!

Symbols locations for symbols appearing in menus:

\Data\loading_screen\symbols

\Data\menu\symbols\FE_buttons_24

\Data\menu\symbols\FE_buttons_48

Symbols for campaign map etc. (not menus):

probably in \Data\banners

Narayanese

06-26-2005, 20:35

I wrote it down with the pictures (unused one for citadel tw)
http://img113.echo.cx/img113/6792/luxemburg7eh.th.jpg (http://img113.echo.cx/my.php?image=luxemburg7eh.jpg)

ScionTheWorm

06-26-2005, 21:04

That's really really helpful! Thanks!! ~:)

ScionTheWorm

06-26-2005, 23:04

ScionTheWorm

06-26-2005, 23:32

oh forgot about this one. we haven't discussed the symbol at all for normandy, so I used the tree leopards
http://img146.echo.cx/img146/461/prevaofnormandy9lb.th.jpg (http://img146.echo.cx/my.php?image=prevaofnormandy9lb.jpg)

GoreBag

06-27-2005, 00:48

The latest one won't display, but the first three look really cool.

Rodion Romanovich

06-27-2005, 08:58

3 catholic factionicons with the shield used before. I was a little unsure if you liked it, but anyway here we go. Guess who, your out of the team if you guess the second one wrong ~;)
http://img145.echo.cx/img145/5240/prevaofcatholic3xo.th.jpg (http://img145.echo.cx/my.php?image=prevaofcatholic3xo.jpg)

btw, for smaller versions the symbols will take the whole shield insted of in the center.. but I'm not bothered with that right yet

Nice ones, and Normandy looks good too. ~:cheers: I think I've only seen one Norman symbol in a primary source, and it was some flower or something - probably just a unique symbol for a certain noble, and not what the entire Norman army would use. The three leopards work better, although I'm not sure Normans would know what a leopard was. Lions were widely known, but I'm not sure about other exotic cats. But there's nothing that says it would be impossible, so at least on my part I can't find anything historically incorrect in the symbol, and because it looks great I think we should use it.

ScionTheWorm

06-27-2005, 09:30

Nice ones, and Normandy looks good too. ~:cheers: I think I've only seen one Norman symbol in a primary source, and it was some flower or something - probably just a unique symbol for a certain noble, and not what the entire Norman army would use. The three leopards work better, although I'm not sure Normans would know what a leopard was. Lions were widely known, but I'm not sure about other exotic cats. But there's nothing that says it would be impossible, so at least on my part I can't find anything historically incorrect in the symbol, and because it looks great I think we should use it.

Thanks. The three leopards was quite hard to get into that little frame as you maybe can see. I can easely change the motive if you want, I think a lion is or is going to be a little overused. The three leopards may date to later for all I know, there's just not many normandy symbols to use. So I could use a a flower (though I'm not quite happy about flowers in factionicons), or these three leopards, or maybe better, another symbol that they used for sure. I doubt the last one, but you decide ~D

Rodion Romanovich

06-27-2005, 09:36

Ok, then I think we should stick to the three leopards ~D :balloon2:

ScionTheWorm

06-27-2005, 10:03

I think I saw a leopard on some normandy medieval concept art so I think we're fine.

WikiPedia:
The traditional provincial flag of Normandy, gules, two leopards passant or, is used in both modern regions. The historic three-leopard version (known in the Norman language as les treis cats, "the three cats") is used by some associations and individuals, especially those who support reunification of the regions and cultural links with the Channel Islands and England.

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normandy#Symbols )

Incongruous

06-28-2005, 11:06

Ok the Sybol for the so called "Saxons" should (as their being lead by Alfred the Great) be the Golden Wyvern of Wessex, it could be put upon a red or green backround.

As for Normandy, if I can remember correctly the three Lepaords/Lions are actually the symbol of the Plantagenets.
I think (I'm not sure) that William the Conqueror used a black hawk as his standard.

ScionTheWorm

06-28-2005, 11:15

Actually these alternatives sounds like they will look nicer anyway, that's my opinion. Never got the sutton soo helmet right, and the three leopards.... hmmm I don't know... black hawk might work, will make an alternative so you guys can see it later.

Incongruous

06-28-2005, 11:25

Ok I have had a look at some Magyar history books and right now I would say that a "ten arrows" symbol should be tried out, that is ten arrows arranged in a kind'a circle, all arrow heads pinting inwards and touching on a rich yellow, with a dark red border.
But I'll keep looking, cause I think that might be a proto-Magyar one. ~:)

Incongruous

06-28-2005, 20:46

Ok I have found the true Magyar Symbol, the TURUL, its a giant Falcon and a Magyar god. I found a picture.

http://www.pelzo.hu/images/Turkorq.gif

ScionTheWorm

06-28-2005, 21:52

thanks it's been posted before but then it's unescapable, and a very nice icon. Thanks for that clean image.

Incongruous

06-29-2005, 06:59

Note: This should be a richly coloured icon. lots of Reds and yellows and black. No leather, the Magyars were not that poor.

ScionTheWorm

06-29-2005, 23:48

Ok the Sybol for the so called "Saxons" should (as their being lead by Alfred the Great) be the Golden Wyvern of Wessex, it could be put upon a red or green backround.

Will do...

As for Normandy, if I can remember correctly the three Lepaords/Lions are actually the symbol of the Plantagenets.
I think (I'm not sure) that William the Conqueror used a black hawk as his standard.

I doubt it, searching on it gives no hits on a black hawk except for relation with ww2. Can't see it anywhere, though the leopards comes in different forms... 2 and 3. I would bet my money on the current one.
Some source I found (http://www.british-towns.net/english/kings/normans.htm)
As posted vefore, Wikipedia...

ScionTheWorm

06-30-2005, 00:02

Saxon/Kingdom of Wessex, Bopa-style
http://img179.echo.cx/img179/3300/prevaofsaxon1wf.th.jpg (http://img179.echo.cx/my.php?image=prevaofsaxon1wf.jpg)

skeletor

06-30-2005, 00:10

Cool.. looks good...
The centaurthing wold allso look good for them, but i guess the lepards is more corect..

ScionTheWorm

06-30-2005, 00:49

And since welsh has same culture as saxons, they would recieve a similar icon:
http://img274.echo.cx/img274/8578/prevaofwelsh5br.th.jpg (http://img274.echo.cx/my.php?image=prevaofwelsh5br.jpg)

Goddamn... magyar is the hardest one yet!

GoreBag

06-30-2005, 03:49

Well, the Welsh are Celts... I don't know. It's a very well done symbol, though.

Incongruous

06-30-2005, 05:05

Yep thate exactly it, you got a nack for this methinks ~:cheers: :book:
But about the Norman one, I will keep looking.
Huh! I know I'll have a look at my copy of the Beuyxe tapestry, that should help.

Incongruous

06-30-2005, 05:33

Ok this is the Norman sybol.

http://www.masseriacanestrello.it/foto_paesaggi/foto_basilicata/vipere%20simbolo%20normanno.jpg

Incongruous

06-30-2005, 05:35

Oh and just in case you cant tell, the thing in the middle is a large viper with a curled tail, while the two things at its head are two smaller vipers. All three viper's tongues are touching.

ScionTheWorm

06-30-2005, 20:01

Well, the Welsh are Celts... I don't know. It's a very well done symbol, though.
didn't use much time on it, so it's no problem for me. Celts.... So I'm a little frustrated here, so i need an answear once for all:
Welsh getting the theme to:
1.) Scots/Irish
2.) Catholics as now
3.) Saxon and Welsh own theme

@Bopa: Looks nice, will have a look at it

Rodion Romanovich

06-30-2005, 20:05

I think Saxons and Welsh should have same theme they have now. Those symbols look really great and I think they should be kept

Incongruous

06-30-2005, 21:19

Well it all depends on whetehr you want to have culture specific banners.
If you don't then kepp it, but if you do, since the Welsh are Romano-British/Celtic, you might want to drop the shield backround and keep the Dragon.
Oh, and I was doing a little reading and the vipers thing is a toned down christianised version of the Norman symbol of the middle ages, so you might want to replace the vipers with some sort of Norse serpent's.

ScionTheWorm

06-30-2005, 21:42

I'm going the culture/religion way, but I'm certaintly not taking away any background. It has to be one of the numbers above, but at the same time I also feel saxons falls between the catholics and vikings, and the welsh between catholics and scots/irish. So it will be one of three backgrounds, as mentioned before; for both of them actually.

Now I'm going Asturia, and I hope we can agree on golden cross

"Flag of Asturias
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
The flag of Asturias shows the "Cruz de la Victoria" (Victory Cross).

According to legend, this flag was flown by Don Pelayo (later King Pelayo), in the decisive Battle of Covadonga against the Moors in 722. This battle, fought in the mountains of Asturias was recognized as the start of the "Reconquista" or Re-conquest of Spain from Moorish domination.

In 908 the Asturian King Alfonso III the Great ordered that the original wooden cross be clad in gold and precious stones. It is now kept in this form in the Cathedral of Oviedo.

The Greek letters Alpha and omega hang from its horizontal part.
"
I have a feel for clear red and gold, but the flag on wikipedia is blue and gold. Will make the red one and change it later if wanted.

Incongruous

06-30-2005, 21:58

"I also feel saxons falls between the catholics and vikings, and the welsh between catholics and scots/irish." Yep thast about right.
So ahh... Wheres the Magyar one :laugh4: :clown:

ScionTheWorm

06-30-2005, 22:14

help me out here...
Magyar:
motive: bird with children
colors: black red yellow green orange (yellow red black does not make the icon colorful, looks more like a bird being burned in hell)
material: not leather...... but what? your typical magyar next door, what sort of stuff is his decoration made of? marble, steel, silver, candy?

and by the way, to take a little self criticm here... Legio seems to like it, and I think these icons are okay - but too little variation maybe; I may be using the shield a little too much. I first intended to use wooden shield for saxons, but then they looked as primitive as the leather-magyar episode, which would be wrong I believe. But now 7 factions or something have it, and I feel tempted to use it for asturia too. It feels a little wrong, but I don't know better...

Ranika

06-30-2005, 22:15

If you feel it's overused, could use the same as Scots/Irish for the Welsh, and maybe a similar (but more 'Saxon' motiff) for the Saxon symbol? Saxons did use similar symbolism after being Christianized (since it was mostly the Celtic monks who did it, so they adopted a lot of artistic motiffs).

ScionTheWorm

06-30-2005, 23:53

fooling around... I actually think we should go for this for the welsh:
https://img14.imageshack.us/img14/2998/prevaofwelsh9bn.th.jpg (https://img14.imageshack.us/my.php?image=prevaofwelsh9bn.jpg)

And for the kingdom of wessex, the welsh counterpart...
https://img261.imageshack.us/img261/7117/prevaofsaxon5uy.th.jpg (https://img261.imageshack.us/my.php?image=prevaofsaxon5uy.jpg)
which I'm more unsure about, however I think it's the best candidate until now...........

Incongruous

07-01-2005, 04:50

Ok the colours for the Magyar TURUL should be a realy rich imperial kinda red, a chinese kind of yellow, charcoal black and a dark velvety green colour, as for the design around it alot of curls, swirls and hard angles.

skeletor

07-01-2005, 08:50

Looks really good.. If you think the dragons is to similar, you could allways mirrorize the "saxon" one..

Incongruous

07-01-2005, 10:50

The Dragon os Wessex is cool.

Rodion Romanovich

07-01-2005, 14:09

ScionTheWorm

07-01-2005, 14:44

Asturia as I see it...
https://img155.imageshack.us/img155/3865/prevofasturia9mj.th.jpg (https://img155.imageshack.us/my.php?image=prevofasturia9mj.jpg)

ScionTheWorm

07-01-2005, 15:54

Byzantine...
https://img98.imageshack.us/img98/6060/prevaofbyzantinegold5ij.th.jpg (https://img98.imageshack.us/my.php?image=prevaofbyzantinegold5ij.jpg)

King Ragnar

07-01-2005, 16:08

Very nice.

ScionTheWorm

07-01-2005, 16:10

Done: Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Saxons, Scots, Irish, Welsh, Novgorod, French, Holy roman empire, Papal states, Lotharingia, Khazars

(I have decided not to mirror the wyvern)

Waiting for replies: Asturia, Byzanine

To go: Normandy, Magyars, Abbassids, Al Andalus, Bulgars, Rebels

Almost there ~D

ScionTheWorm

07-01-2005, 16:48

And since nothing has been said about them, I tried out this for the Abbasids:
https://img164.imageshack.us/img164/4149/prevaofabbasid3hb.th.jpg (https://img164.imageshack.us/my.php?image=prevaofabbasid3hb.jpg)

Background: a bowl, Abbasid, 9th centyry, from Iraq
Aquamanile in the Form of an Eagle: Water Vessel, Abbasid, 796-7 Iran

ScionTheWorm

07-01-2005, 17:09

Again probably not correct, so please correct...
https://img108.imageshack.us/img108/6296/prevaofal5si.th.jpg (https://img108.imageshack.us/my.php?image=prevaofal5si.jpg)

Edit:
oh forgot to say this one is ment for Al-Andalus.

Edit 2:
making new muslim ones

Rodion Romanovich

07-01-2005, 20:43

Very nice Byzantine symbol. I used a too bright, saturated color with too much red in, this color is much better and the symbol you used is really, I have to say, one of the best I've seen so far.

Asturia is great, but I'm not sure about giving them a cross as that might make players associate them with the papacy too much. On the other hand, Asturia were the ones to start the Reconquista and historically it was Asturia and later Castile (that was lost from Asturian control but originally was part of Asturia) that played the most important role in conquering the peninsula, so they are definitely worthy of the cross as they were the only really successful "crusaders" - the eastern crusades weakning the Byzzies actually had opposite effect to the intended in that it made it easier for the muslim ottomans to get far into the Balkans... Anyway, the symbol is well done but I'm still weighing pros and cons about the choice of symbol. I personally can't think of a better symbol so if nobody else does I vote for using the cross.

The muslim faction symbols look great IMO, but I'm no expert on symbolics of the time so I don't know about the historical accuracy. Only thing I've read suggests that both Al Andalus and the Abbassids were using plain standards in battle. The halfmoon is, according to those sources, from pre-islamic pagan religions of the area. But I'm not sure about those things, and perhaps a plain symbol wouldn't look good. I presume you're working in layers so maybe you could show some versions of the muslim symbols but without the actual symbol - only the frames and a background in an appropriate color (the color that will be faction color). If it looks good enough I think a plain, one-colored symbol for the muslim factions would be most correct.

Edit: Actually the Abbassid frame would probably be best to start from when making muslim single-colored symbols, as it's very different from the other faction symbols and would make it clear that they are different factions. I also think that Abbassids and Al Andalus should have the same style/theme. Maybe it would even work to just use the hue/saturation/lightness tool to change hue in order to get the different muslim symbols.

Edit2: I tested mirroring the dragon for saxons/welsh and on second thoughts think it's better to leave it as it is. After all the colors are so different that there won't be any problems distinguishing them anyway.

ScionTheWorm

07-01-2005, 20:46

New abbasid
https://img113.imageshack.us/img113/1814/prevaofabbasidkid2rd.th.jpg (https://img113.imageshack.us/my.php?image=prevaofabbasidkid2rd.jpg)

ScionTheWorm

07-01-2005, 20:50

Very nice Byzantine symbol. I used a too bright, saturated color with too much red in, this color is much better and the symbol you used is really, I have to say, one of the best I've seen so far.

Thank you ~D

Asturia is great, but I'm not sure about giving them a cross as that might make players associate them with the papacy too much. On the other hand, Asturia were the ones to start the Reconquista and historically it was Asturia and later Castile (that was lost from Asturian control but originally was part of Asturia) that played the most important role in conquering the peninsula, so they are definitely worthy of the cross as they were the only really successful "crusaders" - the eastern crusades weakning the Byzzies actually had opposite effect to the intended in that it made it easier for the muslim ottomans to get far into the Balkans... Anyway, the symbol is well done but I'm still weighing pros and cons about the choice of symbol. I personally can't think of a better symbol so if nobody else does I vote for using the cross.

I vote for the cross, as it's very historically relevant. Gave them a more wooden look too, because of what you say. But if somebody has a way better option, I won't argue though.

The muslim faction symbols look great IMO, but I'm no expert on symbolics of the time so I don't know about the historical accuracy. Only thing I've read suggests that both Al Andalus and the Abbassids were using plain standards in battle. The halfmoon is, according to those sources, from pre-islamic pagan religions of the area. But I'm not sure about those things, and perhaps a plain symbol wouldn't look good. I presume you're working in layers so maybe you could show some versions of the muslim symbols but without the actual symbol - only the frames and a background in an appropriate color (the color that will be faction color). If it looks good enough I think a plain, one-colored symbol for the muslim factions would be most correct.

Edit: Actually the Abbassid frame would probably be best to start from when making muslim single-colored symbols, as it's very different from the other faction symbols and would make it clear that they are different factions. I also think that Abbassids and Al Andalus should have the same style/theme. Maybe it would even work to just use the hue/saturation/lightness tool to change hue in order to get the different muslim symbols.

I will make new ones, not happy at all with them. But should they have the same theme? They are not exactly neighbours, but I've found a lot of good pottery I probably use for the abbasid background. Okay that's really not the problem, what the problem is, is the symbol. I've got no idea, and muslim art is so abstract!! Searches on any of them gives me nothing.

Edit:
My options as I see them - but which is quite boring, is:
1.) Some universal islam symbol
2.) Buildings
3.) Extremely abstact
4.) Sword/saber

Edit2: I tested mirroring the dragon for saxons/welsh and on second thoughts think it's better to leave it as it is. After all the colors are so different that there won't be any problems distinguishing them anyway.
My thoughts exactly

ScionTheWorm

07-01-2005, 21:12

Stormy

07-01-2005, 21:42

Very nice faction symbols. On the Abbasids symbol, I think putting the "Allah" inscription in the middle will look good.

Rodion Romanovich

07-01-2005, 21:49

No, seriously, this could be the theme and maybe the symbol:
https://img157.imageshack.us/img157/1118/prevaofabbasid23fx.th.jpg (https://img157.imageshack.us/my.php?image=prevaofabbasid23fx.jpg)
Inscription yields "ALLAH"

Hm, what's the most important muslim symbol? I think the five pillars is perhaps the most important "symbol" etc., but I haven't seen it as a symbol in art, more as a way of thinking. The islamic faith is afaik against any sort of symbolism or images for representing Allah, so symbols should perhaps be exactly that - abstract patterns or plain. Perhaps you could use some mosaic (search for pictures of mosques). Other symbolic of the kind that muslims would consider interesting to create images or architecture etc. from would be "eternity". If you've seen the mosque of Cordoba, I think, then you know what I mean. They've made a room of pillars and archs which looks like it never ends. If you can make some symbol that reflects "eternity", then that would be symbolically correct I think.

I believe the ottomans used a standard with Allah's name on it in some battles. In one battle they used a white standard with Allah's name written repeated over and over again. But the ottomans aren't very similar to the Abbassids in symbolics and belief afaik, so they are perhaps not a good example.

I'd say try a plain symbol for the Abbassids - one-colored but with a frame, and the name of Allah ONCE, in the middle, of course with the Arabic characters like above.

For Al Andalus try to find something based on "eternity", or perhaps use the Alhambra palace (it isn't entirely contemporary but still probably works) or any mosque - image search google for "mosque" or "mosque+mosaic" perhaps would work?) A mosaic looking at little like the pattern on the Khazar symbol suggestion I said I thought was a little persian-looking could work for Abbassids or Al Andalus too. Anyway, the Abbassid faction symbol should really be as plain as possible because the Abbassid battle standard would for historical correctness be plain, one-colored, perhaps with Allah's name in the middle and the symbol and standard should be easy to for the player to connect.

BTW the cat symbol was great ~;)

Jarlabanke

07-01-2005, 22:10

The most Important islamic symbol is most likely the cresent moon.

ScionTheWorm

07-01-2005, 22:38

going gold.......... probably over the edge
https://img103.imageshack.us/img103/111/prevaofabbasid34xq.th.jpg (https://img103.imageshack.us/my.php?image=prevaofabbasid34xq.jpg)

Edit:
Trying a desert feeling
https://img226.imageshack.us/img226/163/prevaofabbasid40tp.th.jpg (https://img226.imageshack.us/my.php?image=prevaofabbasid40tp.jpg)

Krusader

07-01-2005, 23:30

If I might share my view:

Byzantine icon: Very good. If you're going to redo it, then might I suggest purple?

Asturias: Could you try a "stone" theme? The kingdom of Asturias and later Castille was in the mountainous northern Iberia, and Castile did get it's name from the many castles at the border at the Douro river valley.

Al-Andalus/Abbasids: If you check modern Islamic flags, you will see most have green in them. The green sections in the flags represent Islam.

Green is the traditional color of Islam, likewise because of its association with nature and the scarce and precious plant life of Arabia. Muhammad is quoted in a hadith as saying that "water, greenery, and a beautiful face" were three universally good things. For this reason, the flag of Libya is plain green, the only current national flag of a single color.

Older Islamic flags were derived from the tribal flags of the Arabs. The national flag of Qureish, the nation of the Prophet Mohamed was black, with a rising eagle in the middle.

The Prophet found the eagle abhorent and determined that it was somehow connected with the idols of his forebears. Accordingly he removed the eagle and used a plain black flag as the State flag of the first Islamic Commonwealth. A black flag made enormous sense against the beige backdrop of the desert.

During the conflict between the Umayyads and the descendants of Ali bin Abu Talib, the Prophet's son-in-law, the Umayyads adopted a plain white flag to draw contrast with the black flag of the Prophet, which was also used by Ali.

When Ummayad rule, centred in Damascus, gave way to Abbasid rule from Baghdad, the flag reverted to the Prophet's black flag. For a time the Abbasids used a plain green flag, as did the Fatimids of Egypt. The Umayyads of Europe used the plain white flag of their Damascus kin.

I also read somewhere that the armies of Al-Andalus carried white silk banners to battle with Koranic inscriptions on them.

Incongruous

07-01-2005, 23:33

I agree it needs more green and black.

ScionTheWorm

07-01-2005, 23:35

Abbasid
https://img46.imageshack.us/img46/628/prevaofabbasid69ma.th.jpg (https://img46.imageshack.us/my.php?image=prevaofabbasid69ma.jpg)

ScionTheWorm

07-01-2005, 23:37

Byzantine icon: Very good. If you're going to redo it, then might I suggest purple?
Thanks. But what the heff is the color used now then? :wideeyed:

Quite happy with it. Green is a good idea though. And stone too

Incongruous

07-01-2005, 23:39

That Abassid one is awsome. Well bloody done mate! ~:) :bow: ~:cheers: :charge:

Krusader

07-01-2005, 23:47

Edited a bit when came over new info.

*Adjusting the monitor* Ahh. There it is!!

ScionTheWorm

07-02-2005, 00:43

And without the wedding dress:
https://img214.imageshack.us/img214/3464/prevaofal38ds.th.jpg (https://img214.imageshack.us/my.php?image=prevaofal38ds.jpg)

I don't think inscriptions is the way to go. Neither buildings. (believe me, I've tried)

Stormy

07-02-2005, 01:00

Very nice and very good, I think it's perfect! :bow:
I like #2 without the without the dress. ~:cheers:

ScionTheWorm

07-02-2005, 01:06

Thank you, I've not made up any opinion yet..... I think the one above with the moon should be used, but probably not the last one(?).. but if people like it, why not ~D

Sligtly changed Asturia
https://img214.imageshack.us/img214/3903/prevaofasturia22xg.th.jpg (https://img214.imageshack.us/my.php?image=prevaofasturia22xg.jpg)

Hehe I like the red cloth... sorry ~:handball:

edit: will be redone...

Stormy

07-02-2005, 01:31

I agree, I like the Asturia symbol with the cloth also. Very well made. excellent once again. ~:cheers:

ScionTheWorm

07-02-2005, 09:13

Friheten til å kunne velge

Abbasid
https://img11.imageshack.us/img11/685/prevaofabbasid77rf.th.jpg (https://img11.imageshack.us/my.php?image=prevaofabbasid77rf.jpg)

Al-Andalus
https://img298.imageshack.us/img298/9476/prevaofal45gm.th.jpg (https://img298.imageshack.us/my.php?image=prevaofal45gm.jpg)

ScionTheWorm

07-02-2005, 11:18

Goddamn this is hard... it may be a mess
https://img208.imageshack.us/img208/7945/prevaofmagyar32qp.th.jpg (https://img208.imageshack.us/my.php?image=prevaofmagyar32qp.jpg)

Rodion Romanovich

07-02-2005, 11:33

ScionTheWorm

07-02-2005, 11:38

then I suggest that we just keep the colors and switch around.

Rodion Romanovich

07-02-2005, 11:40

what do you mean with keep colors and switch rest? Well, I meant they'd just change symbols, thereby changing colors too. But we could also keep it as it is, it works fine.

ScionTheWorm

07-02-2005, 17:13

ScionTheWorm

07-02-2005, 17:33

First try for rebels... trying to make it universial, but maybe a little too fancy and too little informative
https://img269.imageshack.us/img269/9829/prevaofrebels6jz.th.jpg (https://img269.imageshack.us/my.php?image=prevaofrebels6jz.jpg)

skeletor

07-02-2005, 19:07

oooohhh i think i just had an orgasm!!!!! :curtain:

Scion, you have actually made a complete set of symbols bether than any other mod i have seen. - Eaven NTW's, and that's something.

This is really amazing..

Rodion Romanovich

07-02-2005, 19:15

Sorry wrote a simple ting complicated.

Here is an update, tell me what works and what sucks ~D ~:handball:

https://img57.imageshack.us/img57/5789/prev5last3ir.th.jpg (https://img57.imageshack.us/my.php?image=prev5last3ir.jpg)

Asturia: simple and a little primitive look.
Magyar: not too fancy (sorry guys) but giving sort of a steppe feeling. Might not work
Bulgar: Lion, same style as Magyar but given the color of thrace... heh ~D

I think those are all great.

The rebel symbol was a little hard to see. Like I said before hayfork or fist are the best alternatives IMO. My attempt at a fist was an... ahem... failure to say the least. But if you could make a fist that works I think that's cooler than a hayfork, as axes and quickly created wooden spears were probably more common than hayforks in battle afaik. Also the rebels aren't only peasants but also have to represent smaller factions as well as larger, but declining, factions, and the hayfork suggests they're peasants. Perhaps a fist in stone would work?

Rodion Romanovich

07-02-2005, 19:17

oooohhh i think i just had an orgasm!!!!! :curtain:

:hide: ~D

Scion, you have actually made a complete set of symbols bether than any other mod i have seen. - Eaven NTW's, and that's something.

Yeah, I second that. I don't think any other mod has made faction symbols anywhere near this. Scion deserves another beer: ~:cheers:

ScionTheWorm

07-02-2005, 19:30

:barrel: :barrel: :barrel: :barrel: :barrel: :barrel: :barrel: :barrel: :barrel: :barrel: :barrel: :barrel: :barrel: :barrel: :barrel: :barrel: :barrel: :barrel:
:medievalcheers: :medievalcheers:

Almost done! Some adjustments to of corse, not every one of the last one I'm 100% satisfied with. At least the rebels.

Thought it was good to have these done before doing the hard work. A starting point.

Check out my wallpapers in the campaign-thread... just for fun!

ScionTheWorm

07-02-2005, 20:04

Incongruous

07-03-2005, 03:18

King of Atlantis

07-03-2005, 03:48

Those factions symbols are simply the best i have ever seen!

~:cheers:

If you wanted you could do one for atlantis total war....... ~D

Rodion Romanovich

07-03-2005, 10:20

I like the first one best here... but something to choose from
https://img147.imageshack.us/img147/1593/prevaofrebelschoose0dd.th.jpg (https://img147.imageshack.us/my.php?image=prevaofrebelschoose0dd.jpg)

Edit:
You may think "cross the weapons, cross the weapons!". no...

Both in the upper row look splendid and could be used. Of the two in question, I personally like the right one (skull) best.

ScionTheWorm

07-03-2005, 10:21

Far out dude, your awsome ~D ~:cheers: .
they are the best faction symbols I've aver seen :bow: .
But I reckon that the first Magyar one really gets across the feeling of their culture and should be used ~:) .
~D thank you. First one, you mean the one I posted before the last one? Would have to do some modifications on it in that case.

Those factions symbols are simply the best i have ever seen!

~:cheers:

If you wanted you could do one for atlantis total war....... ~D
Thanks, glad you liked it! I'm pretty tired of making those now... could maybe make one as a gift from our splendid mod and team, but not right now... heh ~D

btw, I now have this left: Normandy (shouldn't take too long), maybe some magyar (bopa?)
and some replies on the rebels... what about the first one in the foursome-pic?

Edit:

Both in the upper row look splendid and could be used. Of the two in question, I personally like the right one (skull) best.
Okay... sorry I just didn't believe in that fist so I didn't try. I agree that the top row is most qualified