Units

[Rodion Romanovich]

This is a temporary thread for the discussion of units. When we make more progress on the tech tree lists we'll probably need to make one units thread per faction.

NOTE! This thread is not about discussing WHICH units should be included. That is discussed in the tech trees thread. This thread is for discussing looks, armament etc. of the units that we've already decided to include. A thread for discussing work in progress as well as finished units.

Some notes:
- The warcry ability will not be used for any units. We'll use a different method for modelling a warcry before running into battle
- Skins should be made to look realistic first, and colors needed to recognize faction should be added on shields or elsewhere where they don't affect the look of the warrior itself too much, when possible.
- Peasant and militia should usually stick to dirty or simple clothing with little other colors than offwhite, grey and brown etc. Richer troops such as royal, non-feudal troops, byzantine tagmata, jarl's hirds etc. will, when historically accurate have more colorful clothing. In those cases the faction color can be used also on the clothing.
- For units without shields we'll have to find a clever way of including the faction color without changing the skin too much. Perhaps by only adding a slight trace of the faction color to the skin.
- Faction colors are still being discussed in the faction symbols thread. I guess no skins here can be totally completed until that discussion has been completed so we know what colors to add to the skin.

[Ianofsmeg16]

said this before on the original thread, dumnonian cavalry!!!!! with scale armour and excellent saxon killing capabilities :bow: btw congrats on getting in the hosted mods thing

[oj121]

Justaquestion to the creators, What units have you got for the Welsh? Just thought i could help in some way with the list if i know what you have already got. Thanks

[skeletor]

Skeletors Skins..

Will be updated.

[ScionTheWorm]

Ok here is some units, just to get started. Please correct me.

Norway:
- Bondi
- Karl
- Geirrmen
- Landsmen
- Berserkers
- Huskarl
- Archers
- Raiders
- Hird
- Jomsviking
- Birkebeiner (english..?)

Saxons:
- Spearmen
- Armoured Spearmen
- Warband
- Light Cavalry
- Skirmishers

Welsh:
- Longbowmen
- Cavalry
- Swordsmen
- Skirmishers

France:
- Spearmen (light, armoured)
- Light, heavy cavalry
- Skirmishers

Magyar
- Light archers
- Horsemen
- Lancers
- Swordmen
- Szekely
- Heavy Infantry

...

[Wikingus]

Should Jomsvikings actually be a unit? It's not like there were that many of them...

[ScionTheWorm]

Should Jomsvikings actually be a unit? It's not like there were that many of them...

Maybe as mercenarys? Well I don't know, I'm no researcher. As I said, correct me.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Hi all. maybe didn't explain it so well above but:
- The unit lists are discussed in the tech trees thread. I refer to that thread for more info. The first post in that thread is updated with the latest plans for units and tech trees.
- This thread is about discussing and showing units under construction as well as finished ones, and more about discussion about looks and armament etc. of the units. The tech trees thread is where we decide WHICH units to have, here we discuss the actual making of those units.

[oj121]

The Welsh could do with some proper spearmen both light and armoured as they did borrow ideas from Rome and then the invading Saxons. Also the Welsh should have an elite units much like the forresters of Gaul. Armed with a longbow with higher stats than the normal longbowmen and very good melee capabilities. As for cavalry, light cavalry should be as good if not slightly better than their Saxon neighbours yet there were very few examples of heavy cavalry until the attempt to face up to the Normans on a pitched battlefield on a regular basis by around 1100's. Yet again due to the only lands being able to support a large amount of horses being in the south these werefew and far between

The Welsh were expert raiders and ambushers and i think that their troops should have this advantage also.

[ScionTheWorm]

UPDATED SAXON FYRDMEN

http://img132.echo.cx/img132/135/sc63ix.th.jpg (http://img132.echo.cx/my.php?image=sc63ix.jpg)

[Wikingus]

UPDATED SAXON FYRDMEN

http://img132.echo.cx/img132/135/sc63ix.th.jpg (http://img132.echo.cx/my.php?image=sc63ix.jpg)

Love them! :duel: ~:cheers:

[skeletor]

~:cheers:

[ScionTheWorm]

This is another update where some changes will be made (the chain mail mainly, the shield for sure, and other things you may dislike). Anyway you get the idea with the robe-thing (can't remember the word in english), and yes, added some more hair in the face. :disguise:

UPDATED SAXON ARMOURED FYRDMEN
http://img144.echo.cx/img144/4971/sc78hi.th.jpg (http://img144.echo.cx/my.php?image=sc78hi.jpg)

[ScionTheWorm]

Hmmm that image didn't seem to work right now... anyway

Several factions shall be able to reqruit Catholic Fanatics right? (with clubs?)

Was thinking about modelling this and eventually skin it, but do you have some concept-art or maybe only a description? I guess you don't want it like in mtw

[Rodion Romanovich]

UPDATED SAXON FYRDMEN

http://img132.echo.cx/img132/135/sc63ix.th.jpg (http://img132.echo.cx/my.php?image=sc63ix.jpg)

Wonderful! ~:cheers: :thumbsup:

Re clubmen: Well, I don't know exactly how they were going to look. Also I don't know what our historian says about their historical accuracy, but they'd be fun to include IMO. One of the first things we need to know is whether they should look like peasants or have richer-looking clothes before we know what clothes to give them. The club I'm already sure should be a wooden club without any sharp stuff pointing out. Hopefully that's enough info so you can at least model the clubman, but I'm afraid it's still too little to enable you to skin it. I'll be back with more info.

[Ianofsmeg16]

sorry to sound repetitive......Dumnonian cavalry!!! I've been reading Bernard cornwells Warlord chronicles about arthur and i am obssesed with them

[Rodion Romanovich]

Ok, but were they still used around 843 to 1000 AD?

[ScionTheWorm]

Ok hope this image shows

UPDATED SAXON ARMOURED FYRDMEN

http://img137.echo.cx/img137/2773/sc88qs.th.jpg (http://img137.echo.cx/my.php?image=sc88qs.jpg)


I'm going to use my resulting armoured fyrdman as a base for saxon cavalry, so this one has to be perfect (except the shield). The chain mail is possibly going to be used as a template for all chain mail in the game, so critisize(!!);
Is the chain mail
- too red/too black/white?
- too dark/light?
- too small/large chains (smaller/larger black holes)?
- too much/little shiny?

[ScionTheWorm]

- For units without shields we'll have to find a clever way of including the faction color without changing the skin too much. Perhaps by only adding a slight trace of the faction color to the skin.

I vote for no faction color to the skin. It's really nothing confusing when there are banners on the field..


Re clubmen: Well, I don't know exactly how they were going to look. Also I don't know what our historian says about their historical accuracy, but they'd be fun to include IMO. One of the first things we need to know is whether they should look like peasants or have richer-looking clothes before we know what clothes to give them. The club I'm already sure should be a wooden club without any sharp stuff pointing out. Hopefully that's enough info so you can at least model the clubman, but I'm afraid it's still too little to enable you to skin it. I'll be back with more info.
I'll do it later then. Can do some more saxons.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Ok hope this image shows

UPDATED SAXON ARMOURED FYRDMEN

http://img137.echo.cx/img137/2773/sc88qs.th.jpg (http://img137.echo.cx/my.php?image=sc88qs.jpg)


I'm going to use my resulting armoured fyrdman as a base for saxon cavalry, so this one has to be perfect (except the shield). The chain mail is possibly going to be used as a template for all chain mail in the game, so critisize(!!);
Is the chain mail
- too red/too black/white?
- too dark/light?
- too small/large chains (smaller/larger black holes)?
- too much/little shiny?

The new skin looks very good IMO. I think shinyness is good, as is the light/darkness, and the coloring. The size of the "chain rings" (or whatever you call those...) is a little large IMO, and they're a little too square shaped. If it's possible I'd like it if they could be made more circular and slightly smaller, but perhaps if that's done it'll only look blurry in-game. If you could make a test skin with those changes we can see if it's possible to make a good-looking skin with smaller rings. The one you posted above is good enough to use IMO, so if the test skin with smaller and more circular rings doesn't look good the one you posted above can certainly be used.

[ScionTheWorm]

Update, frontal shot: slightly wider but smaller in height rings

http://img215.echo.cx/img215/1086/sc98po.th.jpg (http://img215.echo.cx/my.php?image=sc98po.jpg)

I wonder if multiple models for one unit where each model is from a certain distance takes care of the smoothing, or if it's only for performance.

[Rodion Romanovich]

I think the new one was even better. Great work!

[ScionTheWorm]

UPDATED SAXON CAVALRY

http://img71.echo.cx/img71/7802/sc109iu.th.jpg (http://img71.echo.cx/my.php?image=sc109iu.jpg)

:charge:

[ScionTheWorm]

Ok I know cavalry needs some finishing but I don't want to do a lot of work on something you may dislike.

So next to skin is the Saxon Huscarl. I don't know what shield to give him (long, round, not a shield but a twohanded weapon..?), but there will be one with a sword and one with an axe (see picture). Long beards and lot's of protection, redly clothing (?). I'm REALLY no expert on what units should look like so help me.

http://theminiaturespage.com/news/pics/2005/may/618520b.jpg
http://www.regia.org/images/combat/Huscarl14.jpg

[Ranika]

Dumnonians were no longer considered anything special by the 820s; their cavalry techniques and training had been absorbed by those who'd use it. They simply weren't that important.

[ScionTheWorm]

SAXON HUSCARLS, FIRST STAGE
Here is my first attempt on Saxon Huscarls with axe and long shield. Looks good in battle too.
Base: Triarii (skeletors version), added:
- Chain Mail-"hood"
- Long axe
- Longer shield, narrowing at bottom
- Longer shirt (bottom) and shirt-sleeves

Am I far off here?

http://img259.echo.cx/img259/5392/sc121fl.th.jpg (http://img259.echo.cx/my.php?image=sc121fl.jpg)

[skeletor]

Dame Scion

:jawdrop:

Do you ever sleap? GREAT WORK

-Skel-

[Ianofsmeg16]

Ok, but were they still used around 843 to 1000 AD?
probably yes, by welshmen who thought they were arthur reincarnated

[Rodion Romanovich]

SAXON HUSCARLS, FIRST STAGE
Here is my first attempt on Saxon Huscarls with axe and long shield. Looks good in battle too.
Base: Triarii (skeletors version), added:
- Chain Mail-"hood"
- Long axe
- Longer shield, narrowing at bottom
- Longer shirt (bottom) and shirt-sleeves

Am I far off here?

http://img259.echo.cx/img259/5392/sc121fl.th.jpg (http://img259.echo.cx/my.php?image=sc121fl.jpg)

:thumbsup: Great!

[Jarlabanke]

On the Varangians: AFAIK they were often refered to as men with axes rather than swords.

[Rodion Romanovich]

I thought so too, but our historian said they were swordsmen. I however think they could be heavy axemen of the same type as huscarles, but they'll have better stats as they are a level 4 unit and also historically were a chosen elite force. I'll edit so they are axemen instead.

[skeletor]

~:confused: They look like axes to me...

[Rodion Romanovich]

~:confused: They look like axes to me...

Thanks to the magical editing function ~;)

[Jarlabanke]

http://users.bigpond.net.au/quarfwa/miklagard/period/skylitzes1.htm
One of the few pictures with them on. Of course just like most scandinavian "regiments" their equipment was probably quite mixed, and are in Byzantine sources said to have used both axes,spears and swords. But the axes does seem to have set them apart in the eyes Byzantians.

[ScionTheWorm]

Skeletor: Should I make a model of the Sutton Hoo-helmet? It's Anglo-Saxon from the 7th century (called Grim-Helm I think). It seems like it was very similar to helmets worn by the Swedish (don't know exactly when but think it was a little bit later), so the model may be used for them too. I thought about giving it to the Saxon Heavy Cavalry, just to give them some bad-ass feeling.. of course this is some work, so I won't do it if you guys think it's unhistorical (can't find sources on 8th/9th century helmets, I think it can't be proved that they weren't using this one that late).

Hehe. Anyway, I think it would look very cool.

http://rubens.anu.edu.au/student.projects/hoo2/helmetblue.gif

[Jarlabanke]

The swedish helmets were pretty much temporary, soem porbably earlier though.

[ScionTheWorm]

Okay then maybe this will be better for them anyway.
http://www.vikingcrafts.co.uk/euroea7.jpg
Early Saxon Helmet (8th-10th Century)

Let me know if you want the Grim one anyway. Maybe for the king :charge:

[skeletor]

I have thougt of using it for an early Saxon unit, maybe for the generals bodyguard. It wold be cool using the marian reforms as creation of knighthood. Then we can have earlyer, and later unit's. It certainly wold be cool having a unit with it - Pre knight Generals bodyguards. ~:)

Have anyone given the reforms any thoughts?

-Skel-

[King Ragnar]

I have thought about it, the only factions i have thought of that could do it would be the vikings and the saxons if there is more than one saxon faction on the british isles it could work there.

[King Ragnar]

Can you post the Huscarl again please, the link is broken.

[ScionTheWorm]

So strange... ImageShack have lost two screens of mine.. don't know if this is common

Reposted Saxon Huscarl
http://img258.echo.cx/img258/7822/sc126if.th.jpg (http://img258.echo.cx/my.php?image=sc126if.jpg)

God, when will I become a member???

[Agraes]

I have read somewhere that the Sutton Hoo helmet was probably made by a celtic artisan for a saxon warlord (cause of the motives on it).

You might use it for the saxon general (I will certainly do a such thing for my mod Arthurian : Total War).

[King Ragnar]

Love the skin Scion, only suggestion i think the shield should go on the back then they should have double handed axe.

[ScionTheWorm]

Love the skin Scion, only suggestion i think the shield should go on the back then they should have double handed axe.

That can easely be done, I think it will look better too - you just have to inform me. Does the size of the axe look ok?

[ScionTheWorm]

Hehe couldn't help posting this

PEASANTS UNDER THE BUTCHER's KNIFE
http://img89.echo.cx/img89/9904/sc155af.th.jpg (http://img89.echo.cx/my.php?image=sc155af.jpg)

Wonder what that scene would look like after 1 sec in real life.
Only work in progress though... will make axe-head smaller. But I have problems with the size of the shield, looks odd from behind too. Suggestions?

[ScionTheWorm]

Just played around with cavalry helmets.. applied a filter so you won't bother the details, would this kind of helmet fit the (early) heavy saxon cavalry?

http://img24.echo.cx/img24/6409/sc160qe.th.jpg (http://img24.echo.cx/my.php?image=sc160qe.jpg)

That's it for today

[Rodion Romanovich]

I think the shape of the helmet looks very good!

[ScionTheWorm]

To Skeletor (and other's that may have an opinion on this):

While doing some researching on units I found this..

From http://members.tripod.com/Preachan/knights1.html
"
Norman Knight C. 1066

For hundreds of years, the basic form of body Armour consisted of the chain-mail shirt, called the hauberk, or byrnie. In one form or another, this was an essential piece of body defence until the late fifteenth century. We have ample evidence in the Bayeux tapestry of the equipment worn and carried by the Norman knights who rode to victory at Hastings; they had knee-length mail hauberks with elbow-length sleeves, split at front and rear for ease when riding, conical helmets with a nasal bar, and leather or padded cloth greaves. Only very high ranking lords wore mail stockings to protect their legs and feet. Norman knights carried long, kite-shaped shields, often decorated with swirling shapes like this one, though there is no evidence that these decorations were associated with specific knights or families in the heraldic sense. Their main weapons were a sword and a long lance; the Saxons, by contrast, are often depicted wielding battle-axes and carrying smaller, round shields.
"
Okay this is relevant if the description of saxons from the last sentence in the quotation is not only "depicted", but also part of history.

Looks like Norman knights is more like the one I modelled and skinned that were supposed to be saxon, and saxons did have round smaller shields and battle-axes it seems like(!).. should these have spears..? and am I wrong when I recall that you said teardropped for all saxons?

when I think it over the ones I made are heavy later cavalry, so maybe only the lighter cavalry will have battle-axes. anyway, about the shield, any thoughts? This is actually important since the tear-dropped shield need some modelling.

[ScionTheWorm]

Saxon peasants
http://img205.echo.cx/img205/1636/sc177mg.th.jpg (http://img205.echo.cx/my.php?image=sc177mg.jpg)

Working on a peasant model for the northern factions. Have here given them some cloth around the neck, maybe it should be removed.. heavy influenced by my fyrdman, but probably gonna change him a little anyway. No deadly metal on the edge of the spear, only something the peasant made home at his farm. I guess the shield would have low stats (breaks easily), same with his wooden spear, making him a very weak unit.

Main reason I post this is to get an opinion on the squared, wooden shield. I thought it looked nice ~:)

[ScionTheWorm]

Concept art

The Battle Of Deheubarth 903 A.D
Welsh fighting saxon peasants
http://img207.echo.cx/img207/6308/sc189vj.th.jpg (http://img207.echo.cx/my.php?image=sc189vj.jpg)

(Yes I made that up, and yes it's a screenshot. Hmm sorry I'm on a posting rampage, frustrated for having such a booooooooooring saturday AARGH :drummer: )

[Rodion Romanovich]

Saxon peasants
http://img205.echo.cx/img205/1636/sc177mg.th.jpg (http://img205.echo.cx/my.php?image=sc177mg.jpg)

Working on a peasant model for the northern factions. Have here given them some cloth around the neck, maybe it should be removed.. heavy influenced by my fyrdman, but probably gonna change him a little anyway. No deadly metal on the edge of the spear, only something the peasant made home at his farm. I guess the shield would have low stats (breaks easily), same with his wooden spear, making him a very weak unit.

Main reason I post this is to get an opinion on the squared, wooden shield. I thought it looked nice ~:)

I think that's a good model and skin for the town watch units or militia spearman. Only suggestion is that the tip of the spear should be in brighter wooden color. It should look like the spear is just a cut down tree with it's bark still on, except for the tip where there shouldn't be any bark and the fresh wood should be visible.

[Jarlabanke]

It looks good, even though I must say I would've prefered more "conventional" equipment.

[ScionTheWorm]

I think that's a good model and skin for the town watch units or militia spearman. Only suggestion is that the tip of the spear should be in brighter wooden color. It should look like the spear is just a cut down tree with it's bark still on, except for the tip where there shouldn't be any bark and the fresh wood should be visible.

Okay but will town watch or militia spearmen then be the weakest unit? Note that the shield is not a part of the model, just an idea I had to try out, using the alpha channel in ps. Can you tell me who the weakest unit will be for the northern factions (scots,irish,welsh, saxon, vikings)? I know we agreed on not having peasants in the way they were in vanilla, but thought there would be a almost peasant-like unit for each faction. But hey if that's what we call town watch it's ok for me.


It looks good, even though I must say I would've prefered more "conventional" equipment.

Knifes and forks? To that I don't agree.

[ScionTheWorm]

By the way, if you want I can make the spears really crappy by making them a shorter and giving them some bending here and there so they look like they have just been chopped down.

[Rodion Romanovich]

By the way, if you want I can make the spears really crappy by making them a shorter and giving them some bending here and there so they look like they have just been chopped down.

Yes, shorter spears sounds good. Perhaps not too much bending though, as it might look bad when too many soldiers with the same bending on their spears are standing next to each other.

BTW, the shared town watch will be the weakest infantry unit in the game. Also the militia spearman shared unit should be almost as weak and very similar in looks IMO, but with slightly longer spears and therefore also better stats vs cavalry. Perhaps the town watch shouldn't just have sharpened cut down trees, but slightly better spears, as they're partly a standing force for some of the factions. But the militia spearmen should probably have that primitive spears. And those militia spearmen will be perfect to simulate peasants in revolts and brigand armies etc.

[Jarlabanke]

I mean that I believe most people could have gotten their hands on a real spear back in those days.

[ScionTheWorm]

Ok, forget about the other posts and let me represent
Saxon Town Watch

http://img214.echo.cx/img214/169/sc192oa.th.jpg (http://img214.echo.cx/my.php?image=sc192oa.jpg)

Tried with a round wooden shield, but didn't think it worked any better.


I mean that I believe most people could have gotten their hands on a real spear back in those days.
That wasn't my call. See the techtree thread

[Rodion Romanovich]

I mean that I believe most people could have gotten their hands on a real spear back in those days.

Yes, that's true. So only the unit militia spearmen should probably have them. They'll be furthest down in the spearmaker building complex for the frankish factions who already have pretty good cities from start, and will only appear on battlefields seldom, and they'll also be in brigand and rebel armies. Actually a metal point isn't needed when wanting to impale lightly or not armored opponents unless actual fighting continues for a very long time and the tip is damaged a lot. So I think troops who wanted to quickly get to battle and didn't want to bring farm tools would probably cut down a small tree and sharpen the edge of it. I don't think it's historically inaccurate with some troops, especially rebels, to use such weapons.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Ok, forget about the other posts and let me represent
Saxon Town Watch

http://img214.echo.cx/img214/169/sc192oa.th.jpg (http://img214.echo.cx/my.php?image=sc192oa.jpg)

Tried with a round wooden shield, but didn't think it worked any better.


:thumbsup: I think the square shield is fine, but it depends on historical accuracy of it. But really, if it's going to be a model used by all factions, and town watch is mostly for garrisoning, then I don't think it matters much what shape the shield has. I think we can consider that model complete

[ScionTheWorm]

then the guys over would be
Saxon militia spearmen

hehe ~:handball:

[ScionTheWorm]

great. how do you think the town watch/militia spearmen will look like for other factions? was thinking about skinning it for welsh, irish and scots. as you say, the shield can of course be changed later.

btw, i'm confused..who's that model? townwatch or militia?

[Rodion Romanovich]

then the guys over would be
Saxon militia spearmen

hehe ~:handball:

~D

Actually, I think the saxon town watch can look like that. There'll be different skins for the town watch of different factions anyway, and I think the current one is good enough. Because the saxons didn't have a militia spearman unit in the tech tree, the fyrdmen fill that function. The militia spearman unit of the frankish factions should have slightly longer spears I think, but otherwise look pretty much like that.

[ScionTheWorm]

Okay just for discussing the "style" for some factions. Mainly thinking about milita and townwatch, but i guess it implies for other units too. My suggestion is

Saxon
Light brown shirts, dark with red patterns on something, brown hair.

Welsh
A little green in shirts, lighter hair, green/red patterns, beard

Irish
Some green in shirts, lighter/grayer hair, white/green patterns, mustache ~:cool:

Scots
Brown shirts, dark blue with white stripes patterns, gray/brown dark hair, beard

Now flame me.

[Rodion Romanovich]

I have to disappoint you... no flaming this time ~D . For scots and irish here's some cut-and-paste and summarizing of what Ranika posted:

Scots:
Knee-length shirt, boots over the ankle, shoulder cloak, mustache or clean-shaved. Pictish units in Scottish service should have beards. No trousers, rather cloaks. Leather coat.

Irish:
Knee-length shirt, boots over the ankle, shoulder cloak, mustache or clean-shaved. No beards. No trousers, rather cloaks. Padded coat. Some, especially western and isolated eastern tribes, paint themselves (possible to use for the islander unit called Inishnaghta)

Town watch are neither supposed to be isolated for the Irish or Picts for the Scots and so should neither have beards or body painting, but stick to the rest mentioned under Irish and Scottish.

[ScionTheWorm]

WORK IN PROGRESS: Irish Townwatch
http://img141.echo.cx/img141/6397/sc207ek.th.jpg (http://img141.echo.cx/my.php?image=sc207ek.jpg)

Didn't understand everything (no trousers??), but if this is far off I might have to make a model unique for irish and scots.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Didn't understand everything (no trousers??), but if this is far off I might have to make a model unique for irish and scots.

Well, I believe no trousers means skirt/kilt or similar. I just summarized what Ranika said so hopefully he'll drop in and explain.

Edit: For the Irish above and Scottish below I think the coats should be buttoned in front with one to three buttons so they don't look like they're sitting so loose they might fall off, but while they're still so open that you can see part of the clothes beneath. Otherwise great work! ~:cheers:

[ScionTheWorm]

And the Scottish mother-huggers might look like this:

http://img144.echo.cx/img144/5044/sc210pc.th.jpg (http://img144.echo.cx/my.php?image=sc210pc.jpg)

Peace

[ScionTheWorm]

Well, I believe no trousers means skirt/kilt or similar. I just summarized what Ranika said so hopefully he'll drop in and explain.

Edit: Removed comment when I saw the scottish ones below from another angle and realized the comment wasn't justified. Great work! ~:cheers:

I saw your edit, tried to quote, couldn't, glad your satisfied. Yes, the irish runs in the picture, and it's night or something, therefore it's somewhat uncorrect. The colors looks nice like in the other two factions.

I liked the scots myself, nice to have some units without beard :)

The mustache is almost like the falx-guys, which is quite heavy. Could maybe darken it a little. It's nice to get these units done 'case it makes me get a feeling about how the rest is going to look. If something is historical unaccurate (ranika) then please..... PLEASE tell me now :charge:

[ScionTheWorm]

Edit: For the Irish above and Scottish below I think the coats should be buttoned in front with one to three buttons so they don't look like they're sitting so loose they might fall off, but while they're still so open that you can see part of the clothes beneath. Otherwise great work! ~:cheers:

Wow another edit... okay will do that, requires some changes in the model. Actually I agree, but it might be some work.

[ScionTheWorm]

And another thing I was thinking about... could of course make them more complex, give them more details. I like the simple and a little dark style though, giving it a dark age primitive feeling. But tell me if this is not the right road.

(if I had been a member I wouldn't have to post this much *whine*)

[ScionTheWorm]

Ok I did it. It's attached only one place though, otherwise they looked like ugly fat pigs. Mustache to the irish, and removed the cloth from the saxon. The saxons is maybe a little boring compared, but I don't think the clothing-thing seems right on him. He might get a cooler shield :cheesy:

Scots, saxons, irish townwatch
http://img139.echo.cx/img139/6708/sc221yk.th.jpg (http://img139.echo.cx/my.php?image=sc221yk.jpg)

[Ranika]

The Irish and Scots never wore trousers. They wore a long shirt that came to the knee, called a leine, with a belt at their waist (not a kilt, those didn't exist until the 15th-16th century). Their legs would be bare. They would be wearing boots. The town militia would be 'kernbannal'; they would have boots lined with fur, a leine (longshirt to the knee), belt, long hair, mustache probably, and a short shoulder cloak fastened at the right shoulder. The shoulder cloak covers the upper part of the chest and back, and over the left shoulder. It would have plaid colors, based on station. In this case, 2 colors, probably dark colors, but not black, and no white (black and white are for arras and their retainers only). Gaels should never ever have on pants in this period, but instead be dressed as described. They are, of course, not representing isolated groups, so no beards, no body paint. No kilt/skirt though, I'll reiterate, just a long shirt. With that out of the way;

The kernbannal carries a spear, a round shield, and darts (short javelins). They actually fought as skirmishers, but would be as disadvantaged in melee as other militias (I'd not say more disadvantaged, most Gaels regularly engaged in training 'games' to ensure they could throw darts and use a spear, though it'd also not make them exceptional). Also, they're militia, so no leather/padded coat on them, those were worn by actual soldiers.

[ScionTheWorm]

Thank you Ranika, you're priceless! It will be done.

[ScionTheWorm]

Question about the Cloak:
fastened at right shoulder
hanging from right shoulder covering upper chest, going under left arm, covering upper back and goes to the left shoulder? isn't physical possible... where does it go from the right shoulder?

Thanks

[King Ragnar]

Ranika do you mean something like this for the shoulder cloak.
The tartan bit going round his shoulder thats it right?
https://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a21/KingRagnar/Braveheart202.jpg

[ScionTheWorm]

hehe made that one first but when I saw closer on his description i thought it couldn't be right. first of all it's not short...

[Ranika]

No, that is not at all correct; the shoulder cloak doesn't go down at all. It simply hangs on the shoulder. Think a cloak, but very very short. That picture shows a kilt. The shoulder cloak is a type of mantle.

[ScionTheWorm]

Anywhere near one of these?

http://img211.echo.cx/img211/6818/dr16ib.th.jpg (http://img211.echo.cx/my.php?image=dr16ib.jpg)

[Ranika]

http://img70.echo.cx/my.php?image=gaul2ki.jpg Here, from EB; this is the front of a shoulder cloak. It only goes down slightly further in back.

[GoreBag]

No, that is not at all correct; the shoulder cloak doesn't go down at all. It simply hangs on the shoulder. Think a cloak, but very very short. That picture shows a kilt. The shoulder cloak is a type of mantle.

That's no kilt, bay. It is historical dress; just not for this period. I have an illustration of that of which you tell somewhere in Dwelly's...only I don't remember the Gaelic word for it. It's not leine, either; that is defined as simply a word for "shirt".

[Ranika]

It appears to be a bracaettae bohirae, which is a type of kilt set (has a few sashes, a sporran, etc.), from around 1750, favored in northern Scotland. I didn't but glance at the picture though, it only took a quick moment to realize it was incorrect to period.

[ScionTheWorm]

http://img70.echo.cx/my.php?image=gaul2ki.jpg Here, from EB; this is the front of a shoulder cloak. It only goes down slightly further in back.

Thank you very much

[ScionTheWorm]

Have encountered a problem with combining peltasts with spearmen. Since the spear is secondary weapon, for some reason he holds it upside down when not using it! May have to edit the skeleton animations, which I have very little interrest in doing. What do you think, is this totally unacceptable?

[Rodion Romanovich]

Have encountered a problem with combining peltasts with spearmen. Since the spear is secondary weapon, for some reason he holds it upside down when not using it! May have to edit the skeleton animations, which I have very little interrest in doing. What do you think, is this totally unacceptable?

A lot of other total conversion mods have units holding their spears upside down when not in use even though it looks a bit awkward, so I think it's acceptable. I believe someone even said it was completely impossible to make it any other way, but I might be remembering it incorrectly.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Ok I did it. It's attached only one place though, otherwise they looked like ugly fat pigs. Mustache to the irish, and removed the cloth from the saxon. The saxons is maybe a little boring compared, but I don't think the clothing-thing seems right on him. He might get a cooler shield :cheesy:

Scots, saxons, irish townwatch
http://img139.echo.cx/img139/6708/sc221yk.th.jpg (http://img139.echo.cx/my.php?image=sc221yk.jpg)

Wow, those are all very sweet screenies! Looks really good IMO, all of them. I see there was some discussion below the pics about the cloak, so it might get changed a little again, but I think this is a very good start and definitely the way to go! ~:cheers:

[ScionTheWorm]

Hmm I believe I was wrong, may have been a skin issue with the alpha channel. Have to be!!

[ScionTheWorm]

Okay this is the case: he is keeping his spear in his back-pocket while skirmishing, and it is not visible before he is in close combat. Guess this is an unsolvable issue, though the units will be niice.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Okay this is the case: he is keeping his spear in his back-pocket while skirmishing, and it is not visible before he is in close combat. Guess this is an unsolvable issue, though the units will be niice.

Lol, yeah that oddity can also be seen with the macedonian pikemen. Somehow they manage to hide a 5 meter long sarissa in their backpocket ~:confused:

Anyway, now that you say it I believe it actually wasn't the javelin and spear combination that caused spears to be upside down when unused. Rather, I believe it was if you wanted units using the spears for overhand stabbing when fighting that they had to have their spears pointing down when not using them.

This way is ok too, especially because most units with spear and javelin will have short spears. Only a few special units will have both long spear and javelins at the same time.

[GoreBag]

It appears to be a bracaettae bohirae, which is a type of kilt set (has a few sashes, a sporran, etc.), from around 1750, favored in northern Scotland. I didn't but glance at the picture though, it only took a quick moment to realize it was incorrect to period.

I believe it's a breacan-an-fhéilidh, described as "the original garb of the Highlanders". I am unsure what exactly this means, but it could stretch back far beyond 1750.

On the léine...


Although[/url] it is difficult to come to too many conclusions about Irish dress from this period, it seems to be the consensus of the scholars that the léine costume was that of the aristocracy, or at least those with some authority, in the 10th century and before. In this time, we do find another form of dress, however—that of the tight fitting trews, worn with a jacket. We never see the léine and trews being worn together, though (at least not at this early period). One theory put forth that has met with some acceptance is that the trews, which are similar to other northern European garments, belonged to the native Irish. When the conquering Gaels came in sometime before 300 BC, they brought with them their looser fitting clothing, the léine or tunic. These people conquered and ruled over the indigenous people much the same way the Normans ruled over the Anglo-Saxons. Even though the conquered race eventually spoke the Gaelic language and called themselves by the same name, it was the upper class who wore the léine and the common man retained the native garb.

Perhaps the Scottish and Irish townwatch should be wearing trews instead. I have often heard of the skirt-like garments of the Gaels being reserved for the upper-classes before.

[ScionTheWorm]

i agree, it won't be that bad, in most cases you won't even notice. spear not that long, doesn't give the phalanx effect :shocked2:

Yes it's the javelin that's upside down hehe, thought it could be half a spear at one time.

Anyway, what do you think legio... shirts: brown and leatherstyle like the ones I made before, or something like the modern shirts (other patterns of course, but more varied, colors, patterns etc.)

And the dats... javelins, small modern dart arrows, I don't know. halv a javelin maybe?

[Ranika]

Actually, the leine as clothing of aristocracy argument has been a bit outdated (though it still floats around a bit). 'Aristocracy' generally came to mean anyone who wasn't a saer-stock (slave) or daer-stock (temporary slave). However, I know Norse-Irish were considered 'unbecoming' of wearing a leine (that would be, Ostmen mercenaries, some still wore it anyway, but in Irish service they were usually disallowed), and still wore trews (though St. Gorma says that they sometimes combined a leine and trews in Dublin, due to their misunderstanding of the culture).

However, this may be a chance for a skinning difference; the Dal Riadans/Scots did still consider the fiennach (freemen, but not wealthy) below aristocracy, and they did wear trews (but often with a leine, solely because of how cold the region was). Since trews are skin tight, it should be easy to skin them on the same model (I hadn't thought of it before, as I often forget that trews were still in use until about 1050, afterwhich we see almost only bare-legged Gaels). The only other unit that would have trews would be the Scottish variant of Soikernbannal in that case, and probably the Ostmen.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Anyway, what do you think legio... shirts: brown and leatherstyle like the ones I made before, or something like the modern shirts (other patterns of course, but more varied, colors, patterns etc.)


For scots and irish, or what faction do you mean?



And the dats... javelins, small modern dart arrows, I don't know. halv a javelin maybe?

Yes, half a javelin sounds good to me.

[GoreBag]

Trews were worn in Scotland for quite some time after 1050; they were more popular in the colder regions, like you said. There is a passage in Blind Harry's Wallace where he describes how one man...ahem..."beshit his trews" in fear.

How outdated is the "aristocracy argument"? The article I found was written in 2000.

[Ranika]

Not too outdated, but the usage of trews is mentioned far less after 1050 in Ireland, and is mostly a highland practice in Scotland by then (I should have clarified by what I meant as 'mostly' bare-legged; however, within a century we'd see 'lowlanders' who dressed as Normans did, with trousers and all), and even then, not generally among the warrior class or higher (who could afford bailla, robes, or warm leines). It comes from mistranslating 'arrae' as if it were 'arras'; 'arrae' is a slang term (from about 700-1200) meaning anyone who isn't a slave, but 'arras' is literally aristocrats.

On darts, the average Gaelic dart is about 3/5 or 1/2 the length of a Celtic javelin, so a 1/2 length javelin works fine.

[ScionTheWorm]

For scots and irish, or what faction do you mean?

Just wondering what a poor old farmer would war for war. If not any protection, but some shirt, what kind of shirt? ranika? (for instance, white with blue stripes horizontal and vertical)

[Ranika]

Well, I think a consensus can be reached that the Irish would wear a shirt, probably dyed with saffron (giving it a yellowish color), the Scot would wear some skin tight trews (pants that stop before the ankle, so there'd be some bare-leg), with a similar shirt, not dyed with saffron though, so it'd be white or brown.

More on trews; they're depicted on Irish and Scottish soldiers in regions with the most English influence; we've determined many sculptures, paintings, and statues were 'editted' to include what appears to be trews or toidha (shorts), as the Victorian English modesty dictated necessary, as evidenced by substantially later layers of stone being revealed, or the huge disparity between nearly identical pieces from places with less/no English influence. Another problem is that the Irish weren't all the same; some may have favored trews for a while longer, or had them more common (like Ruadrians), but unless there were some specific regional units that would favor them, I'd not use them on most, if any, Irish units, and only on Scottish levies.

[ScionTheWorm]

Okay here's todays sucker.

1st attempt on the irish kernbannal
http://img101.echo.cx/img101/3923/sc234jc.th.jpg (http://img101.echo.cx/my.php?image=sc234jc.jpg)

Okay here's what I came up with today. Had to do something about the hair (as you see around his ears) so he didn't look like Lemmy in Motorhead ~:cheers:
Anyway, the shoulderpads is on, but I'm sure it's somehow is uncorrect; it isn't 100% eb, so if this is way off I'll change it. The piece of cloth might be somewhat loose as you see. Anyway that was not easy, so feedback would be nice before I take action. Didn't quite understand what you said about the pants and trousers for the scots, thought they never weared trousers.

And the size of the darts. Ok?

The pattern is hell to skin too, so that I'll do tomorrow. Suggestions for the patterning is that scottish has more blue and irish more green :) don't know about historical correctness, but the aestetic is more important to me, but I guess they will be somewhat different anyway.

And the spot on the head; this appears on all of my skins, even the vanilla ones. Anybody else have it?

[Ranika]

Trews and trousers are different; trews are shorter and skin tight. Scots never wore trousers in this period. Trews are more like shorts, and were worn by lower classes in society. They would go below the knee, but above the ankle, and be skin tight (about half way down the calf should work), and only be on the Kernbannal and Soikernbannal units. The Irish Kernbannal look very well, though the pattern of the shield looks a bit elaborate for a 'peasant' soldier, though Gaels did take pride in their shields, so they wouldn't look as improvised as other militia shields (probably have a metal boss in the center); it's good enough I think, at the least. The Scot would look similar, but skin on some skintight trews (just one color, similar to the shirt) down to the mid-calf.

I should also note, if possible, Gaels with spears should fight with them overhand, including on horseback. The Gaels called this the 'ancient style', and continued to fight this way until the 12th century, and even then still used it from horseback and with militias

[ScionTheWorm]

The Irish Kernbannal look very well, though the pattern of the shield looks a bit elaborate for a 'peasant' soldier, though Gaels did take pride in their shields, so they wouldn't look as improvised as other militia shields (probably have a metal boss in the center); it's good enough I think, at the least. The Scot would look similar, but skin on some skintight trews (just one color, similar to the shirt) down to the mid-calf.

Thanks, worked quite a bit with this one so I'm glad I'm not miles away.

Understood the trouser-thing now, my english isn't bulletproof, so when you say trousers I think on the norwegian word for underpants. The shield was just to spice them up a little while they looked a little boring, but I agree it might be over the edge. I'll maybe give him a plain wooden shield with some contrasts. And will thighten up the cloak a little. You said good enough, any way to make him perfect?

Is there any suggestions regarding spicing up the shirt a little bit? Tried adding som stiches and "buttons", but I just don't think it's enough.

[ScionTheWorm]

I should also note, if possible, Gaels with spears should fight with them overhand, including on horseback. The Gaels called this the 'ancient style', and continued to fight this way until the 12th century, and even then still used it from horseback and with militias
That would be really nice! I hope we can reqruit someone that can edit the behavour of the skeletons, then we could have a definition like fs_ancient_style :duel:

[Ranika]

I think the shirt looks good, realistic and appropriate. The cloak looks good, but the brooch-clasp should be on the right side of it; other than that, and the shield looking a bit too elaborate, I think they look good.

[GoreBag]

That should be the left shoulder, no?

[Ranika]

Honestly, it may be, I confuse left and right in English (my English may look good on here, if I do say so, but I have friends to help my translation to English, and numerous dictionaries, though, I do sometimes confuse). However, I do believe it's usually the right; though some tribes are said to have done the opposite (probably as a mental thing; if fastened on the opposite side, it was usually because the body was being prepared for a funeral).

[ScionTheWorm]

http://img146.echo.cx/img146/9656/sc246vj.th.jpg (http://img146.echo.cx/my.php?image=sc246vj.jpg)

Worked some time on these, mostly on getting the scarf right. Anyway I think the version I posted before might be nicer, so I'll maybe replace it (thoughts on this?). The patterns will be redone, the shields will be toned down in saturation and they will be made more different from each other in colours. Anyway i would like some feedback before wrapping these guys up.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Worked some time on these, mostly on getting the scarf right. Anyway I think the version I posted before might be nicer, so I'll maybe replace it (thoughts on this?). The patterns will be redone, the shields will be toned down in saturation and they will be made more different from each other in colours. Anyway i would like some feedback before wrapping these guys up.

If you make the kernbannal just like in this screenshot...
http://img101.echo.cx/img101/3923/sc234jc.th.jpg
...but with the scarf looking like it does in the latest screenshot...
http://img146.echo.cx/img146/9656/sc246vj.th.jpg (http://img146.echo.cx/my.php?image=sc246vj.jpg)
...I think that would be a perfect kernbannal! ~:cheers:

[Rodion Romanovich]

That would be really nice! I hope we can reqruit someone that can edit the behavour of the skeletons, then we could have a definition like fs_ancient_style :duel:

The only problem with overhand fighting is that apparently you need to have the units have their spears pointing down when they're not being used. If you look at some screenshots of EB for example, you'll see that plenty of their troops have that. I don't know what you think about it but I think it's ok, although if it's too much work it can be skipped because after all it looks a bit weird with the spears upside down when they aren't used. What do you think?

[Ranika]

I think it looks very well done; of the overhand spear thing, I don't think it would detract if the spear were held upside down, it seems it'd be the way they would've held it anyway, considering it's how they'd fight with it.

It also just occured to me, it'd need a rebel skin; that one can have the trews as well (like on the Scot).

[GoreBag]

Honestly, it may be, I confuse left and right in English (my English may look good on here, if I do say so, but I have friends to help my translation to English, and numerous dictionaries, though, I do sometimes confuse). However, I do believe it's usually the right; though some tribes are said to have done the opposite (probably as a mental thing; if fastened on the opposite side, it was usually because the body was being prepared for a funeral).

Well, I looked up the breacan-an-fhéilidh, and it was fastened on the left, says Dealbhan. I don't imagine that it broke the rule; my money is on the left.

[Ranika]

Ah, then it should be fastened to the left, correctly. However, the alcadh (cloak) is fastened to the opposite side; that is, the full length cloak with hood. I may have simply confused the two.

[GoreBag]

Oddly enough, I've never heard of the Alcadh. A quick search in Dwelly's (which is seeing more use from the past few days than it has since its purveyance) reveals nothing; can you provide any synonyms for the alcadh?

[Ranika]

Try finicadh, roichadh (the roichadh is a woman's cloak, but it's more or less just a smaller alcadh), or feincha-fróinhan; the modern term I think is just clócachocoll (hooded cloak), but that's worn differently. The alcadh is a heavy wool cloak with a deep hood, a sub-cape, sometimes sleeves; it bore a plaid pattern, and was usually worn by aristocrats.

[GoreBag]

Ach. I found only cleòc and cleòcan...damn the differences between Irish and Scots Gaelic.

[Ranika]

Confoundable then; in any event, it'd only be worn by aristocrats and retainers (general's bodyguards/generals/'ridire'). Everyone else would have the shorter, shoulder cloak, though archers would also have a hood on.

[ScionTheWorm]

Ok I'll finish this one now, but next I thought Soikernbannal would do.

He will have a brown hood, shoulder cloak, brown longshirt like kernbannals, shoes to above the ancle, knife, but bowlength relative to the roman archer's unknown. So much like the kernbannal but with a hood.
Or?

(ps. will make the kernbannal shouldercloak more like the former one, just didn't look good the last one. fastned at center more or less.)

[Ranika]

That sounds fine, except that the hood is part of the shoulder cloak; the hood should be the same colors.

[ScionTheWorm]

Allright this might be it

Scottish and irish kernbennals (town militia; spears and darts)
http://img101.echo.cx/img101/3923/sc256wl.th.jpg (http://img101.echo.cx/my.php?image=sc256wl.jpg)

No mustache on scots for variety, else quite similar. Rebels will be like the scots with some difference in hair, pattern and pants. Sheilds lightly decorated, not as detailed as the first but not as plain as the second. Will make rebels much later; won't take long time but I'm too lazy to edit the txt-files and stuff for it now.

[ScionTheWorm]

That sounds fine, except that the hood is part of the shoulder cloak; the hood should be the same colors.

normal size on bows?

[ScionTheWorm]

The only problem with overhand fighting is that apparently you need to have the units have their spears pointing down when they're not being used. If you look at some screenshots of EB for example, you'll see that plenty of their troops have that. I don't know what you think about it but I think it's ok, although if it's too much work it can be skipped because after all it looks a bit weird with the spears upside down when they aren't used. What do you think?

I can't believe they must point down if we edit the 3d animations. I would believe if we can make the ancient style, we can make the spears point up. Or at least that seems logical to me.

[skeletor]

If it really isn't possible,we could add a spearhed on both sides, and eliminate the problem :balloon2:

[ScionTheWorm]

or no spearhead at all!!! :skull:

no, good suggestion

[Rodion Romanovich]

@ScionTheWorm: The new kernbannals look good!

Re spears pointing down: I don't know for sure, it's just what I've heard from others. I'm not a modeller/animator so I don't know what possibilites/restrictions there are. If it is impossible I agree with the two spearheads suggestion.

[ScionTheWorm]

Ok what do you think

Scottish and Irish Soikernbannal
http://img144.echo.cx/img144/8380/sc280qt.th.jpg (http://img144.echo.cx/my.php?image=sc280qt.jpg)
(scots above, irish below)

[ScionTheWorm]

About the animations:
The unit has to, when using the spear, take it from "running"-position (upsidedown) and lift it up so it's along and over his shoulder; if the spearhead is pointing upwards, he would have to change hand-positions in some way, making the animation more complex. If possible, I would think that doing a fast swapping animation (spear suddenly upsidedown for fighting ancient style) would do the trick.

[Rodion Romanovich]

I agree. Normally if lifting the spear you'd quickly spin it around in the hand, at least for shorter spears, and it's only shorter spears that can be used effectively in overhand position. If you or skeletor can fix that, it would open a lot of possibilities

[ScionTheWorm]

Ranika: Can you first of all describe a gaelic leather helmet? And are padded coats like the ones peasants use in vanilla?

[Rodion Romanovich]

Ok what do you think

Scottish and Irish Soikernbannal
http://img144.echo.cx/img144/8380/sc280qt.th.jpg (http://img144.echo.cx/my.php?image=sc280qt.jpg)
(scots above, irish below)

Lovely, :2thumbsup: :medievalcheers:

[GoreBag]

Okay, looking into the alcadh and the left vs. right shoulder issue, I have learned that the alcadh was indeed worn by on the right shoulder, and yes, it was worn on the right shoulder; apparently, all aristocrats pinned their clothing on the right shoulder as a status symbol. Interestingly, women pinned their garments on the opposite shoulder (right for most women, left for aristocrats).

Is the Scottish soikernbannal supposed to wear trews?

[Agraes]

Here a picture of the Breton cavalry ~D

http://tricotbd.free.fr/bd/bdgalerie/hhh/images/HistDeBretagne01.jpg

[Ranika]

Place trews again on these Scots' archers, like were on the kernbannal (both of these troops are just levies); that'll be the end of Gaelic units that need trews (except for perhaps Ostmen mercenaries, but we'll worry about that when we come to it). Otherwise, they look great. It's very pleasing to the eye to see substantially more accurate Gaelic units (especially considering my memories of Viking Invasion; dark age highlanders and gallowglass, gah).

A Gaelic leather helmet is essentially just a boiled leather cap, that ties around the chin; it covers the top and back of the head rather tightly. The same cap is worn by heavier Gaelic soldiers under an iron helmet; that'd be like Ridire and Arras.

The padded coat was generally a kind of yellowish-green earth tone color. It went to the waist, and had short sleeves (the leine would be worn under this, but the shoulder cloak or cloak would be worn over it). Scottish leather coats were similar, except, of course, they were leather, so a leathery texture with leathery colors is in order for them.

Some side notes, for Gaelic professionals. Gaels, at this time, generally wore sword scabbards diagonally across their lower back, not at their side. Just a reminder, that Gaels generally organized in multiples of 25 (25, 50, 100, 150, 200); both of these were considered part of 'fighting in the ancient style', along with using a spear overhand, throwing spears before a charge, etc.

[GoreBag]

It's very pleasing to the eye to see substantially more accurate Gaelic units (especially considering my memories of Viking Invasion; dark age highlanders and gallowglass, gah).

I agree. It also feels pretty cool to be able to have a bit of a say in all this. ~D

[Ranika]

Yes, it is. It's a very nice feeling, and as they saying is; if you want something done right, you'll have to do it yourself. ...Or at least harp at others who are doing it and willing to listen.

[Ranika]

It has occured to me; if the Irish faction starts in western Ireland, their units should have blue paint (not kerns though, so the kernbannal/soikernbannal are fine; non-soldiers wouldn't go through the trouble). The rebel skins for the different units shouldn't have the paint, but professional Irish soldiers probably should, since it's likely Connaghta or Eoghanaghta in charge of the faction. Scots and rebels would lack the paint though. It's not really necessary at all, I suppose, but I'd still include the paint on Inishnaghta (Irish islanders, which did paint themselves).

[skeletor]

@ Scion, those Archers are amazing ~:cheers:

@ Ranika/NeonGod, nice to hear that you apriciate our (Scions) work. Your knowledge of the Geals is amasing too.. It's cool for us too, getting the unit's accurate (i wold probably gone for quilt, large sword ect ~:) ) Really apriciate it!

Keap up the good work.

-Skel-

[skeletor]

http://img166.echo.cx/img166/8470/sweheavyaxe9kl.jpg

Swede heavy axe

:charge:

-Skel-

[Ranika]

Good looking axemen; how many factions will there be that'll get to use the model? It'd be nice to see it with a bunch of different skins and variations.

[skeletor]

I think all the vikings, and the british wil have them.

I tried for normands, but the shield is a bit small
http://img166.echo.cx/img166/908/firstnorman0gc.png

[Rodion Romanovich]

http://img166.echo.cx/img166/8470/sweheavyaxe9kl.jpg

Swede heavy axe

:charge:

-Skel-

:thumbsup: Very good! ~:cheers:

A question: could we use something similar to those shield marks for Rus faction symbol?


I think all the vikings, and the british wil have them.

I tried for normands, but the shield is a bit small
http://img166.echo.cx/img166/908/firstnorman0gc.png

Yes, shield needs to be bigger, otherwise good.

[King Ragnar]

Excellent skins skel

[ScionTheWorm]

Very nice!! Damn.. that chain mail really did the trick! These really seems like elite fighters... only thing I noticed is that maybe the eyeholes in the helmet is too close to each other?
Love the helmets and the cloaks with vague motives... I have to use the helmet-skin and chain mail when skinning my armoured people.

Extremely nice helmet

[Jarlabanke]

Nice looking. To be picky though, I must say I doubt the wearing of cloaks to battle.

[Ranika]

A good number of types of soldiers wore full-length cloaks in battle, though, to my recollection, most were Celtic. They'd use the cloaks as a defense by kind of ripping them off and throwing them on an enemy to disorient them, or wear thick cloaks that double as a kind of defense.

[skeletor]

It was in fact commun for norse to wear cloaks in battele. The color of the cloak indikated their status, and witch "ætt" or family they represented. Their hird wold allso wear the colors of the nobles they were fighting for.

The term "berzerk" has 2 theory's:

1. (norr. berserkr ), means fighting only in their serk (simple piece of clothing, without any armour.)

2. the one CA used: (norr. bera ), means (she)Bear, and therefor "men fighting in a bear-cloak).

(Source, Snorres kongesaga, gyldendal's 1998, with explanations of words, comments, and relations to archaeology.)

I just leave it there until anyone prove me wrong ~:) .

-Skel-

[Jarlabanke]

AFAIK the cloak was fastened on over the right shoulder, indeed to keep the sword arm free. But I still can't see why you'd want it on in battle, would just be constantly in the way of your left arm.
As for colourcoding, I've never heard of it, and it seems quite unnecessary to me as people within the hird would've known eachother quite well.
Further more I don't think I've ever seen any depiction of it either. Take a look at the Bayeux tapestry for example: http://www.sjolander.com/viking/museum/bt/bt.htm

About the meaning of Berserk, you'll fet no arguments from me, though I'm not sure what it has to do with anything.

[Rodion Romanovich]

skeletor, if you want to start skinning Khazars, look in the tech trees thread. I've updated their tech tree and it's probably complete now. Only unit I'm not sure about is the musicians unit, which should if included be a unit of troops very bad at fighting but with a demoralizing "music" function. The different Turkish tribes were known for using musical instruments, primarily drums, to unnerve their opponents in and before battle. If you don't like the idea I'll remove that unit, but the rest of the tech tree is at least certain.

[ScionTheWorm]

would be hard to model it and get it to play music, wouldn't it? On the other hand it could have some screeching women-features.. but I think it's not worth the amount of work I believe it would take

[skeletor]

@ Scion. Im not really sure how mutch work it wold be, but it might be a piece of cace if we just change the sound, and model of screaching women. It wold be really cool having them, byt i'll look at them when the rest is finish..

@ Legioxxxxxxxxxxx. I have sterted working on khazar royal cavalry ~:) It might take some time, but we have a bad weather forecast here this week, so i guess i have some worktime. One thing, from what i have read and seen, they were some of the first to use sabres, so i think i'll give them sabres instead of swords.

-Skel-

[Rodion Romanovich]

@ Scion. Im not really sure how mutch work it wold be, but it might be a piece of cace if we just change the sound, and model of screaching women. It wold be really cool having them, byt i'll look at them when the rest is finish..

@ Legioxxxxxxxxxxx. I have sterted working on khazar royal cavalry ~:) It might take some time, but we have a bad weather forecast here this week, so i guess i have some worktime. One thing, from what i have read and seen, they were some of the first to use sabres, so i think i'll give them sabres instead of swords.

-Skel-

Ok, sabres sounds good. Actually, FYI I've written swords wherever I mean something too long to be an axe ~D So swords really means claymore, broad-sword, short sword, sabre or whatever can be counted as a sword... Just so there are no misunderstandings I'm mostly only forming the tech trees and unit lists, then the details about weaponry and equipment needs more research, in this thread and in the concept art thread. Anyway good luck! Just as much as you couldn't wait to skin those guys, I can't wait to see screenshots from them skinned ~:)

[ScionTheWorm]

@ Scion. Im not really sure how mutch work it wold be, but it might be a piece of cace if we just change the sound, and model of screaching women. It wold be really cool having them, byt i'll look at them when the rest is finish..
-Skel-
I thought it would require it's own skeleton for playing drums etc.? Of course it would be excellent to have them...

[skeletor]

Question:

I have some plans for the viking standard... In ancient Norse times in Scandinavia, a normal way to insult pople, was to add a horsehead on top of a stick. And write rouns with insulting stuff for the time like gay, zolofile aso on the stick, and point it at the one you wanted to insult. I just thought it wold look cool as a standard with a man carrying the horsehead to insult the enemy. Horses were allso an important item in Norse rituals for sacrifice and more.

Thoughts?

-Skel-

[Rodion Romanovich]

Question:

I have some plans for the viking standard... In ancient Norse times in Scandinavia, a normal way to insult pople, was to add a horsehead on top of a stick. And write rouns with insulting stuff for the time like gay, zolofile aso on the stick, and point it at the one you wanted to insult. I just thought it wold look cool as a standard with a man carrying the horsehead to insult the enemy. Horses were allso an important item in Norse rituals for sacrifice and more.

Thoughts?

-Skel-

Yeah, it could be cool, maybe carried by the Norse unit officers? As for the main standard of all factions, I think it should be connected to the faction symbol in one way or another so it's easy to see which faction the unit belongs to.

[ScionTheWorm]

Question:

I have some plans for the viking standard... In ancient Norse times in Scandinavia, a normal way to insult pople, was to add a horsehead on top of a stick. And write rouns with insulting stuff for the time like gay, zolofile aso on the stick, and point it at the one you wanted to insult. I just thought it wold look cool as a standard with a man carrying the horsehead to insult the enemy. Horses were allso an important item in Norse rituals for sacrifice and more.

Thoughts?

-Skel-

If it was very common to battle, I think a horsehead for the norse banner would be cool. (the little one.. is it captainbanner?)
like cutting out the head of a horsemodel and pasting it on the banner stick. but I think it shall have happened in many battles if going to be used.

[Rodion Romanovich]

I think the officers unit can be made to hold a standard, like some priest carrying a cross in Chivalry total war had.

[skeletor]

Each faction can have 3 "followers" lesser General, standard, and musician. I could add the horsehead man as a musician, and only givethem to special viking units like joms, berzerks, and birkebeiners.

-Skel-

[ScionTheWorm]

i really like the idea when it's restricted like that. make it a little bloody ~D

[Incongruous]

Saxon Huscarles were renowned for their axemenship and were double handed axemen.

[Rodion Romanovich]

But if we make them two-handed, they can't use their shield, and then they can't form a shield wall... Actually I didn't realize that until now. What do the rest of the team think? I think the shield wall aspect is quite important.

[skeletor]

I allways had the impression of the shieldwall being formed primary as spearmen with large shields, and in battle, when the walls started braking up, the heavy axenen charged through to make gaps and openings in it with broute force. Their large axes couldnt be too handy in close combat, but very well suited for splintering shields, and slashing aside walls of spears.
(See the shieldwall painting in the "conceptart" thread.)

Ofcourse, during scirmishes prebattle, they would use their shields to protect themselves, but thats not possible to portray in the RTR engine.
I wold go for them having their shiels strapped on their back, and the large twohanded danish axe.

-Skel-

[Incongruous]

The Fyrd formed the shield wall, while the Huscarls stayed close to their lord.
At the battle of Senlac aka. Hastings the Huscarls fought at the centre of the Saxon line and held their own until they were all wiped out, they were formidible even at clos quaters. There are accounts that stat, even though the Huscarls had hardly sufficient room to swing their axes they did so and in the process would kill three to five enemies at once and then attack a knight by cutting his horses head in half.
These guys were the best axemen around by the time of Hastings, it was said that not even the danes could match their skill.

[Incongruous]

Someone was talking about the generals unit having a standard bearer, in the case of the Saxons, this would be really cool and realistic.

[ScionTheWorm]

I think I'll start skinning and modelling a little again. Will continute with scots/irish and maybe, if skeletor allows, try the magyars and bulgars. do you wan't to do them skel, or may I? I choose these because they have the most detailed description (thanks ranika and bopa). will start with low quality troops and work myself upwards.

will make new finished units presentationable in faction thread, when we'e coming to that. will also finish faction icons, make them ready for in-game.

cheers

[skeletor]

Just start with whatever you whant..

I have started some model tests of heavyer Khazar mounts and Royal Cavalery, so if you start from the buttom, we can just meet on the middle. I guess the Magyars, and Khazars can use mutch of the same models.

I have focused most on the vikings to get them finished, so just go ahead with whatever you want to do ~:cheers:

-Skel-

[ScionTheWorm]

nice. time to get some units in place.

nice sig! i do not have my old fonts either, therefore my new alternative one. but will do.

now hurry gimme the screenshots ~D

[skeletor]

Thnx Scion...

I'll get the screens later today when i get home (in 4-5 hours ~:) )

- It takes some time posting them all, but i'll try to get it all done..

-Skel-

[ScionTheWorm]

use imageshack and give me the adresses. that's easiest for me because of the firewall and probably for you too.

[Agraes]

All those units are very very nice ~D

I think axemen can look better with a beard (a different color for each faction ?).

[Incongruous]

OOh! Beards, manly, arggh.
Yeah beards would look cool, blond for the Englisc, also, if you can, all the Englisc units should have moustaches.

[ScionTheWorm]

I think they now have beards..


OOh! Beards, manly, arggh.
Yeah beards would look cool, blond for the Englisc, also, if you can, all the Englisc units should have moustaches.

I appreciate a good moustache, but there will be some variations.

I think that is what a CA guy told to the german and briton skinner, damn! that's what I call lack of creativity. not even changes in haircolor

[ScionTheWorm]

I'm doing these byzantine klibanophoroi, but have just started. Anyway, I was "inspired" by that osprey thing on this forum, but I wish to give him another thing than this coat (and leg/arm armour if possible). Would this guy only dress like that? Ehm what I'm asking is, does anybody know how this units outfit would or could be, that isn't from that picture? Fancy things are welcome too.

[Incongruous]

So Scion, can you post any screenies on the forums?

[ScionTheWorm]

Well there will be a lot of irish and scots coming up, probably at least 20. But not yet, want to do a lot before posting them ~D

I think about only posting preview style, no screenshots yet.

Skeletor have finished 5-10 viking units that I know of.

[Incongruous]

Those units you Pm'd were awsome, and I have to say, thats probably the best skinning I have ever seen, no shit dude.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Hey guys, I saw you talking about your shieldwall formation and a problem with Huscarles becuase they have their shields on their backs.

Here's a thought, in vanilla Rome if you order a phalanx to attack in normal formation they switch to swords and charge. Well couldn't you have it so that while in shieldwall they used swords and shields and when out of shieldwall they used axes. So actually have axes as secondary weapons.

I don't know if you've thought of this but I thought it might be worth mentioning.

[Incongruous]

We've decided to put this MOD out for BI.
Also we might have two Husscarl units, swordsmen, who can form the shield wall, and double handed axemen, who are more shock troops.

[Incongruous]

All Englisc units should be clean shaven except for moustaches.
Thegns need to be included as a unit. These men were the middle strata of society part of the nobility and formed a core elite, oh, and the name Husscarl should be Housecarl, sorry.
Also there is mention of a marine like troop called the Butscarls, these men would have been quick shock troops used to attack Viking settlements along the coast of England and sometimes to carry out seaborne raids upon the Welsh principalities. There too would have been somekind of Englisc Longbow contingent within the army, the practice became well known in the areas around Kent and many Cornish were used as longbowmen.

[King Ragnar]

and the name Husscarl should be Housecarl, sorry.
.

Its Huscarl, you just put an extra s in the first time.

[Incongruous]

No by the early 10th century they were called Housecarls. Husscarl was a more Nordic/Scandanavian version of the name.

[King Ragnar]

ok my mistake :D

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

So my idea wouldn't work?

[skeletor]

Actually Wigferth Ironwall, i think it wold work fine, the same issue works for any unit that wold have a 1st and 2nd weapon, we just need to have the right animation. We haven't seen the new BI shieldwall formations yet, but i guess their just a modification of the phalanx. The problem with having swords in a phalanx formation, is that they wold still behave like they have a spear, and only use it for stabbing, with their hands way behind their waist. We wold have to give then very long swords ~;)

It wold be easy to find out, just give some random swordunit the phalanxability, and see how it works..

I have allready given some of the viking unit's a small axe as secondary weapon instead of the dagger, and with CA's slashing animations, it works fine ~:)

-Skel-

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Sorry, I thought I was being ignored because my idea was pointless. Now, I should say that all your models look great guys.

Oh, and they do. ~:)

[Incongruous]

Hey guys we need more Englisc units at the moment thay have pitifully small army list.

Here is a list of what I think needs to be included.

Longbowmen. The Englisc who lived in south-west England were quite good a using the longbow and by the 11th century were considerd by all to be the best Longbowmen in the world.

Twelfhynde, these are freemen who are only Called up by the Earls, they are not as good as the more warrior like class of Thegns but they are good troops willing to fight for their own land.

Coerls, when the Twelfhynde are called up they bring with them their own retainers known as Coerls. These men are one up from the armoured Fyrd and are good troops . They are also deeply loyal to thier Earls and Twelfhynde and therfor in battle they would be willing to die for these men.

Butscarls-Look at my other posts further up the page.

Mounted Thegns, basic equvilent of early knights.

Mounted Housecarls, should be a very good and proffesional heavy cavalry
unit.

Important, make suer you don't forgrt. ALL ENGLISC UNITS MUST BE CLEAN SHAVEN EXCEPT FOR THEIR MUSTACHES!

[Ranika]

At the battle of Aill south of modern Castlebar in Mayo, in 896, the Irish poet Roiht recorded the Welsh mercenaries had soldiers called 'hesaelue' or 'hysalue'; they're described as swordsmen with shields, and carrying an axe, and wearing scale armor, with an 'elaborate' helmet; Maybe mercenaries or like an imitation housecarle maybe?

[Incongruous]

Interesting, could they possibly be Vikings?

[King Ragnar]

Important, make suer you don't forgrt. ALL ENGLISC UNITS MUST BE CLEAN SHAVEN EXCEPT FOR THEIR MUSTACHES!

Im not saying your wrong Bopa, but where do you get your sources for this? i would just like to read about this. ~:)

[Incongruous]

1. From contemporary art which depicts the Englisc as having only Moustaches, e.g the Beyoux tapestry.
2. Sidonius Appollinaris: Poems and Letters.
3. Transalation of the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle-Bede.
~D

[ScionTheWorm]

my common sense tells me that moustaches wasn't obligatory, only prefered.

I doubt that there wasn't a lot of people that was clean shaved or even had beards - so I don't think 100% of the units should have moustaches.

[Incongruous]

Well I mean verything can be debated, its your choice.

[skeletor]

Don't you think you are discussing the same names in diffrent languages here?
In Norwegian, hus means House, so i belive housecarle and a huskarl is actually the same thing, just spelled in diffrent languages. The hesaelue or hysalue are probably allso enturpretations of the same name, since the unit's are described with allmost the same equipment as the original huskarl.

Anyway, if both the vikings and the "english" factions should have them, they could be given their own names. Unless the unitslots gets filled up.

-Skel-

[King Ragnar]

Don't you think you are discussing the same names in diffrent languages here?
In Norwegian, hus means House, so i belive housecarle and a huskarl is actually the same thing, just spelled in diffrent languages. The hesaelue or hysalue are probably allso enturpretations of the same name, since the unit's are described with allmost the same equipment as the original huskarl.

Anyway, if both the vikings and the "english" factions should have them, they could be given their own names. Unless the unitslots gets filled up.

-Skel-

Yes i agree about giving them there own name and the way that it is spelt.

[Incongruous]

Oh I just did the whole Housecarl thing to ensure the Engglisc didn't end up having a unit called Husscarls.

[ScionTheWorm]

what do you think about making an unique unit for sameland in northern scandinavia? samic hunters or something ~D

Edit:
Could possibly be the finnish unique

[Ranika]

Interesting, could they possibly be Vikings?

I had thought so at first, but they sent a translator named Aormae to deal with them during parlay; supposedly, Aormae's marketable talent was he understood the Welsh language fluently. They may have been mercenary vikings with a Welsh-speaking commander though. It's sort of stabbing in the dark, I admit, and it is vague, at best, but if you want to make a mild leap, I suppose, it could be used as some kind of Welsh infantry, or just maybe mercenaries available to the Welsh, or niether. Just throwing it out there. However, I'm pretty sure the name is a Welsh version of housecarle (if it was a Saxon influenced soldier) or huskarl (if they were viking mercenaries).

[Incongruous]

Weren't there Viking incursions into western Wales?
If so, you could make these guys recriutable only in Western Wales, sort of like an AOR unit. What do you think?

[Incongruous]

OooH, a freak Samic Hunter unit. Cool, that would be a nice touch.
But give thema more fearsome and freaky name

[Ranika]

Weren't there Viking incursions into western Wales?
If so, you could make these guys recriutable only in Western Wales, sort of like an AOR unit. What do you think?

That would be interesting. I hadn't thought of it; I was thinking more of the constant wars with the Mercians, then the raids on the Saxons, and thinking perhaps they picked it up from there, but it may have been from incursion to western Wales. I think an AOR unit for the Welsh would be nice, and considering it's all essentially theory there's a lot of flexibility of where they'd be available; this is probably just as correct as any. Further, it'd provide some interesting variety to the Welsh army. Would they be preferable as sword or axemen?

As an aside, I didn't mention the whole thing, but Roiht mentions other parts of the army composition (also, bare in mind things may be misspelled; Roiht was likely trying to transcribe Welsh words to the best of his understanding). I mentioned the particular soldier because I found it surprising. Also, keep in mind they were Welsh mercenaries at the employ of a flath (chief) in Connacht; however, they were not buanna (professional mercenaries), they were boruanna (professional soldiers moonlighting as mercenaries). They also had 'rherel' (regular soldiers, described as carrying spears), 'ardu' (levies), cluddefaddynion (essentially 'men who fight with swords', probably should be more like cleddyfaddynion, or just cleddyfcludwra; 'sword carriers'), 'myrchagloedd' (this is very close to marchogluoedd; just means 'cavalry'; they're described as using long-hafted axes), and 'miloore' (probably should be 'miloora'; Cornish soldiers, described as using shields and a 'shaigal', a warclub; essentially a wood shaft with iron bands pounded around the upper portion of the shaft). That isn't everything, but everything of much interest; particularly the milwra; could be a type of AOR unit in Cornwall for the Welsh, or perhaps as mercenaries (mioora-cafloog). It should be noted that they weren't poor or peasants; the club was just a cost effective weapon, and fairly useful.

Other Welsh names for soldiers;

Rhyfelwre/Rhyfelwyre ('warriors', in this period generally means part-time soldiers; probably used as skirmishers)
Milwre ('soldiers', professional soldiers/regulars, related to the Cornish term 'miloora')
Saethwre (archers)
Saethwrabhre (longbow archers)
Dynne (mercenary archers)
Dynneabhr (mercenary longbowmen)
Gwaywffynabwre (spearmen)
Bêrfelawre (pikemen)

[Incongruous]

So basically your saying they were a unit in an organised army.
So pehaps, let us asy that these Husscar like units, are derived directly from Viking Husscarls not Englisc Housecarls, this would mean having some king=d of Viking or at least Viking influenced community in Western Wales, along the coast. Perhaps then at the game start we could just have a small rebel provonce along the Western coast, representing a Viking sttlement or raiding camp where once conquered these Viking influnced Husscarl like units could be recriuted. An idea, what do you think?
Perhaps then also these Nordic like units could also be recritable of the eastern Irish coast close to Wales?

It would be quite interesting, allowing the "Celtic" nations to posess some heavy "Germanic" type troops, meaning that their not such a push over.

[Ranika]

So basically your saying they were a unit in an organised army.
So pehaps, let us asy that these Husscar like units, are derived directly from Viking Husscarls not Englisc Housecarls, this would mean having some king=d of Viking or at least Viking influenced community in Western Wales, along the coast. Perhaps then at the game start we could just have a small rebel provonce along the Western coast, representing a Viking sttlement or raiding camp where once conquered these Viking influnced Husscarl like units could be recriuted. An idea, what do you think?
Perhaps then also these Nordic like units could also be recritable of the eastern Irish coast close to Wales?

It would be quite interesting, allowing the "Celtic" nations to posess some heavy "Germanic" type troops, meaning that their not such a push over.

The Celtic countries already had heavy infantry (at least, the Scots and Irish; the Welsh seemed to have imitated their surrounders). The Gaels used Ridire long before vikings introduced themselves, and they're fairly similar to huscarls (and the Ridire routinely won against the vikings; I don't think 'pushover' really comes into it). I don't know how appropriate a viking settlement would be in western Wales at the time, maybe just a small rebel army. I'd not have them in Ireland; the Irish had Ridire, and they also hired Ostmen mercenaries, which would be the equivalent. Allowing them to the Welsh seems alright though.

The key changes the Gaelic militaries experienced after fighting the vikings was wider proliferation of chain armor (using it on more regular soldiers), and longer swords (typical Gaelic swords weren't that long), and the adoption of some other weapons and recruitment systems. It wasn't the introduction of heavy infantry. The Welsh probably had heavy infantry of some sort, but I don't know of it; however, it seems they probably imitated huscarl-type soldiers.

[Incongruous]

Hmmm...
Well, maybe these Hussacrl like units could have better morale or something, just to make them worth having?

[Ranika]

They should be for the Welsh only; do the Welsh have heavy infantry of any kind currently? They could just fill the need for heavy infantry for them. However, it seems like they would have some type of heavy infantry elite; I was thinking of Teulu, but they were mounted. There were Campwyrau, but I don't know if they were still used. The name is essentially 'heroes'; in the 700s they were described as wearing bronze scale armor (probably adopted from Romans, or a throwback to pre-Roman Celtic heavy soldiers); probably would be like heavy swordsmen. They could be 'regular' heavy infantry, and the AOR huscarl imitations could be 'elites', or have them on equal footing, but with different purposes. Give the hus's higher morale/attack, but give the Campwyrau the ability to raise allied morale (as much as the Welsh had developed into a more professional army due to Roman and other influences, they were still a hero culture in many respects).

[Incongruous]

Yep thats a sound idea.

[Ranika]

Are there any other potential AOR units? Really, anything to set the Welsh apart and give them a somewhat unique army is probably helpful. I recommend some Cornish soldiers (as stated earlier), possibly also as regionals for the Englisc though. A possible AOR for the Welsh would be Galweddyl Aulue; essentially Gaelic retainers in Dyfydd; light infantry/spearmen. It was once ruled by Gaels, and there was still a cultural sub-group there at the time, still. They would probably have trousers or trews though; maybe just use the Gaelic sleanaghta model (spearmen); it'd save model space, but still make use of the large unit space, and help give the Welsh a bit more variety; they'd be quite a cobbled faction with some AOR units, with imitation Germanic-style heavy infantry, and some Gaelic infantry (which they could then also get in Irish provinces), as well as Welsh soldiers like longbowmen and such.

[Incongruous]

No I'm not sure that the Welsh should be given any Englisc regional units, unless they conquer the Marches and receive them as an AOR

[ScionTheWorm]

Okay a little preview for yall. Sorry for lack of previews, we're progressing in the work, and I'm too busy making units instead of neat previews. When they come, it will be a bunch.


Irish and albaic ridire fighting, (WIP!)

https://img322.imageshack.us/img322/114/sc162tz.jpg


Irish Soikernbannal and a Albaic Tuaghnaghta

https://img313.imageshack.us/img313/8038/unit0026jw.jpg


Russian and norwegian warriors

https://img42.imageshack.us/img42/8732/sc28fm.jpg

Thanks to ImageShack for Free Image Hosting (http://www.imageshack.us)

[Incongruous]

Haha! like the last one, could be a loading screen.

[Ranika]

No I'm not sure that the Welsh should be given any Englisc regional units, unless they conquer the Marches and receive them as an AOR

The Corns would be Welsh regionals then, not Englisc; the Corns were Britons, and they were still indepedent at the time, so that was an inverted statement; they would be Welsh regionals that the Englisc wouldn't get.

[King Ragnar]

My God those are brilliant i love the Albaic Tuaghnaghta, simply amazing keep them coming dude.

[Jarlabanke]

what do you think about making an unique unit for sameland in northern scandinavia? samic hunters or something ~D

Edit:
Could possibly be the finnish unique

I was under the impression that the finns fought with pretty much the same equipment as the scandinavians did, a sami hunter I'd say is best recruited in Lappland.

And on the whole welsh thing I'd just like to add that looking at a map showing Scandinavian placenames in the british isles, I see that Wales is pretty much free of them. The exception being the south of it. Suggesting that this would have been the place where the vikings made the deepest impression.

[Steppe Merc]

Those are beatiful! I hope I can play as the steppe forces, right? ~D

[Incongruous]

Yep you can play as the Magyars, go look in the tech tree thread, where I posted the Magyar unit list on (I think) page four.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Okay a little preview for yall. Sorry for lack of previews, we're progressing in the work, and I'm too busy making units instead of neat previews. When they come, it will be a bunch.


Irish and albaic ridire fighting, (WIP!)

https://img322.imageshack.us/img322/114/sc162tz.jpg


Irish Soikernbannal and a Albaic Tuaghnaghta

https://img313.imageshack.us/img313/8038/unit0026jw.jpg


Russian and norwegian warriors

https://img42.imageshack.us/img42/8732/sc28fm.jpg

Thanks to ImageShack for Free Image Hosting (http://www.imageshack.us)

Hehe nice ones, especially that last one, it really has the right athmosphere! I'd really like to see those beasts carve a path through a unit of spear-armed militia...

[The Stranger]

cool, btw if you have some new units done Legio, i'll convert the stats, just post them in the thread that was designed for it, oke.

[skeletor]

Umeu, when you write the stats, do you edit their abilitys, and personality, voicetype, and fightnoice too?

you should probably see all the unit's to determen what ability that suits them.

I allso think that the techtree for the vikings must be changed a bit. I can't see the berserker-unit at all ~:confused:

[Rodion Romanovich]

Oh, berserkers were in one of the religious buildings :) I thought it was more interesting to have most of the fanatic units trained in the religious buildings rather than in the normal troop buildings...

[skeletor]

Ah, ok, i had some good plans for them..

-Skel-

[The Stranger]

Umeu, when you write the stats, do you edit their abilitys, and personality, voicetype, and fightnoice too?

you should probably see all the unit's to determen what ability that suits them.

I allso think that the techtree for the vikings must be changed a bit. I can't see the berserker-unit at all ~:confused:


i can change voicetype, but i'm limited to what RTW has now. i can edit abilities ofcourse, but i'm not sure what you meant with personality.

i have a layout wich works fine and is pretty balanced. (with a good killrate that is.) i've recently worked out my recruit and maintenance layout. it has been prefected for civiliesd factions but not for barbarians.
_______________

are you talking about my techtree.

[ScionTheWorm]

Strategy Map Characters look

If I'm not wrong, this is quite similar to battlemap skinning and modelling.

Some suggestions...

Diplomats
Should have typical clothes for that nation, nothing fancy. Not white hair, but rather brown/dark hair. Not necessarily long robes, but maybe a long brown robe for vikings.

Spies
Also more normal look, maybe get rid of the hood.

Captains
The average solider look. Vikings: typical viking armour but no fancy helmet.

Generals
Much like the vanilla family members, but not so fancy and of course more appropriate to our factions.

Assassins
Less exotic than the vanilla one, but maybe some dark clothes.

Ships
Should be fleets on icons. Could also maybe look as a fleet on strategy map, where we can duplicate ships so it looks like we have 3-4 instead of one.

It's all in all for giving our mod an unique look, also I've seen somebody is in the process of making multiplayer for campaignmap, making this aspect even more important.

If some of the factions characters turns out to alike, we can distiguish them by some small differences, for instance darker hair on scots than irish, blond hair for swedish and brown for danes and so on...

[Rodion Romanovich]

Strategy Map Characters look

If I'm not wrong, this is quite similar to battlemap skinning and modelling.

Some suggestions...

Diplomats
Should have typical clothes for that nation, nothing fancy. Not white hair, but rather brown/dark hair. Not necessarily long robes, but maybe a long brown robe for vikings.

Spies
Also more normal look, maybe get rid of the hood.

Captains
The average solider look. Vikings: typical viking armour but no fancy helmet.

Generals
Much like the vanilla family members, but not so fancy and of course more appropriate to our factions.

Assassins
Less exotic than the vanilla one, but maybe some dark clothes.

Ships
Should be fleets on icons. Could also maybe look as a fleet on strategy map, where we can duplicate ships so it looks like we have 3-4 instead of one.

It's all in all for giving our mod an unique look, also I've seen somebody is in the process of making multiplayer for campaignmap, making this aspect even more important.

If some of the factions characters turns out to alike, we can distiguish them by some small differences, for instance darker hair on scots than irish, blond hair for swedish and brown for danes and so on...

Spies should get rid of hood and also get rid of the knife.

Captains would be good to have looking like either a standard infantry warrior or a light cavalryman IMO.

Generals should IMO look like a heavy cavalryman of a type used by the faction.

Assassins should have the dagger the spies have, and dark clothes sounds good, as long as they're normal clothes in all other aspects than that they're darker.

Ships, Diplomats and the solution if two look alike - I agree.

[GoreBag]

I think the hood for the assassin is fine, as long as it's a hood that was on historical clothing. Maybe some assassins will have them, and others not? It'd be cool to have more variation in all the "pieces".

Going back to the assassins-with-hoods idea, maybe some of the Diplomats should have white hair. There's no way to change the piece as they age (and even if there is, what a pile of work!), so a few factions should have more elderly gentlemen.

Assassins, for the most part, should have facial hair as a way to reinforce that "tough guy" feeling in RTW that I thought was great. Any weapon is good - a short sword, a club, a knife, a crossbow...go nuts.

I think the family members on the strategy map should look like nobles from the factions, not just heavy cavalrymen. Will all the generals' units be cavalry, by the way?

I agree about fleets, but can the actual ships be changed? I'd rather see an actual drakkar on the seas that the dinky biremes (or whatever they really were) from RTW. If possible, each culture group should get their own ships.

[Narayanese]

Strat map models are not much different from battle-map. If you want cavalry you'll have to do a new animation, and the skeleton could be a problem because there is no model with both man and horse in vanilla. I've only made infantry strat-models (for citadel TW), to make it easier for me.
I've had difficulties with modelling ships because the barbarian ships I've tried so far won't export even though I make no changes.
Tell me if you wan't me to do any voice-recording in swedish.

[ScionTheWorm]

it's very easy to manipulate the current skins of the strategy characters. Here are just some very hasty skins for a norse diplomat, just to test it.
https://img358.imageshack.us/img358/6097/diplomats4tm.jpg
I know it's ugly.

I think all cultures can and must have only one model of:
diplomats
spies
assassins
That means they will all look alike on model-base. This could be solved with putting everything we need on one model, and use the alpha channel to get rid of it, allthough there are limits when thinking about the size of the skin.

[ScionTheWorm]

https://img135.imageshack.us/img135/2217/picts012my.th.jpg (https://img135.imageshack.us/my.php?image=picts012my.jpg)

[ScionTheWorm]

I've learned some animation now... tried to visualize an idea for the mod, so I made this... it's quite crappy, both video quality and quality generally, so it's no trailer or something... well a very unofficial animation
http://rapidshare.de/files/5034506/riders.wmv.html

edit: oh it's quite bad! giving me a good old vhs feeling..
damn spelled wrong too...

[GoreBag]

What unit is that featured in the larger pic above? It appears in the video and is making me even more curious.

More Nile, eh? I won't tell anyone. Not a bad animation, though. A video of a battle would be nice... ~D

Edit: Have you heard the new album, by the way?

[ScionTheWorm]

no nile here, was it? where? ~D

The unit above is the servant of god, heaven and the bringer of grim death.

I think we might bring a rendered battle scene... no tapen video from rtw. of course only if it turns out a little better than this...

[ScionTheWorm]

Edit: Have you heard the new album, by the way?
yes it was very hard with some nice riffs, I liked it. Though my favourite is still in their darkened shrines..

[GoreBag]

I'll have to look into it, then.

ITDS was good, but I sometimes crave the old-school flavour of Amongst the Catacombs of Nephren-Ka.

[ScionTheWorm]

I tend to keep listening to death, atheist, bolt thrower, nile and kreator and slayer... not that much old-school badass deathmetal, but hey I enjoy that too. just in case, since we're talking music here suddenly

[GoreBag]

Nothing wrong with any of that. I don't listen to much Bolt Thrower, though...did you know they write the lyrics about Warhammer?

I just finished watching a music video for Reign in Blood made from scenes from the Passion of the Christ and a huge collection of hardcore porn. I'd post a link on how to find it, but I got in trouble for linking to a zombie porn last week.

Ever heard of Nunslaughter?

[ScionTheWorm]

no nunslaughter on me I'm afraid... old school?

bolt thrower sings about war, but on their last pieces they sing about modern war. their last album is one of my absolute favourites, quite monothonic, but groovy as hell.

ouch with that zombie porn...

[GoreBag]

Seriously. Who doesn't like zombie porn?

Yeah, Nunslaughter's old school, but are still making music. Formed in '87, I think... if you can find it (Soulseek'll probably do it), Goat is a wicked album. I recommend it with enthusiasm.

[Meneldil]

Seriously. Who doesn't like zombie porn?



Me :dizzy2:

[GoreBag]

Oh, Meneldil. You're such a kidder.

It's just a spoof of Re-Animator, actually. It really is funny...I'm beginning to want to post the link again. Argh.

[ScionTheWorm]

wow nunslaughter:goat had some really hard riffs... will look more into it
edit: the last 4-5 tracks are awesome..

sort of like a crossing of kreator and pestilence... heard pestilence with their first album "malleus malificarum"? it's pretty rare, but got my hands around a first release on some music market... really surprised me

[GoreBag]

I've heard of that album, but I've never heard the music. Looking into it as I type this.

Personally, I think the whole album is killer. My favourite tracks are Immune to Poison and Raid the Convent (#5 & 6), but that line in on track 12 is too sweet ("sacrifice a fucking...GOOOOOAT").

I got a ton of new music last night, and it all rules. Ever heard of Wind of the Black Mountains?

[Rodion Romanovich]

I've learned some animation now... tried to visualize an idea for the mod, so I made this... it's quite crappy, both video quality and quality generally, so it's no trailer or something... well a very unofficial animation
http://rapidshare.de/files/5034506/riders.wmv.html

edit: oh it's quite bad! giving me a good old vhs feeling..
damn spelled wrong too...

Well, I think it's possible to use if some adjustments are made.

What I had in mind when I said a rider in a landscape full of corpses was a gallopping knight riding into the picture (away from the watcher), being quite small. He'd ride through a complex landscape (probably hard to fix), then there'd be more and more corpses, and the camera would get more and more shaky, some slow motion and blur effects added, and the rider would zoom in closer and closer. If possible, some sounds of screaming should be added to the last, psychadelic slow motion/blur/etc. parts of the movie. Would be a great menu movie to loop over and over again, with no text at all.

For the logo in the end, could you make it rotate fast and the slower and slower and then stop, with a sound much like the one in the menu of R:TW and M:TW?


As for the intro movie, I reckon that's the place to have the text. I'm not sure how complex it is to create a movie, might take a very long time, but in the intro movie it's possible to have more of a "storyline" as it's not looped over and over again. Perhaps I should write an introduction text (with the same type of content as the text in the Introduction thread?) for that purpose? After a calm intro with this text, some loud battle scenes and the loud sounds of metal against metal and battle shouts would make a nice contrast... Gah, I'm out of exact ideas at the moment.

[GoreBag]

I got that Pestilence album (and another one called Consuming Impulse) and I'm listening to it now. It reminds me of Slayer. It's a pretty good release so far.

I was really surprised to see a song titled "Extreme Unction" on the album, too. There's a Necrophagist song from the Onset of Putrefaction album with the same title and it's nothing like the Pestilence song of the same name.

[ScionTheWorm]

"Extreme Unction", that's weird. not one of the most usual common titles

Malleus malificarum is not regarded as a very good record, though I keep it dear to my heart

Consuming Impulse is of course the masterpiece but as I understood you're pretty into deathmetal, and have probably heard it. all good tracks, but after this record they more or less went melodic and fusion death metal (wtf)

I saw suffocation live this summer, that track no 2 on Pierced From Within (Thrones Of Blood) hit me pretty hard

[ScionTheWorm]

that actually sounds very good legio, I like your intro movie idea very much. but I'm not sure we should use sound effects though, just have some tune beiing played.

the video was just a practice, so just posted it for the fun of it

[GoreBag]

"Extreme Unction", that's weird. not one of the most usual common titles

Malleus malificarum is not regarded as a very good record, though I keep it dear to my heart

Consuming Impulse is of course the masterpiece but as I understood you're pretty into deathmetal, and have probably heard it. all good tracks, but after this record they more or less went melodic and fusion death metal (wtf)

I saw suffocation live this summer, that track no 2 on Pierced From Within (Thrones Of Blood) hit me pretty hard

Yeah, Suffocation's playing in my city in October. Should be a good show.

I haven't listened to Consuming Impulse yet...still more music to get through first.

[Zero1]

Theres nothing wrong with melodic fusion death/black metal...

Dimmu Borgir, Amorphis, Cradle Of Filth, Children Of Bodom etc.

I actually prefer them to stuff like Morbid Angel, Napalm Death etc. its all about the musicianship.

[GoreBag]

I hate to say this, but... leave the hall.

[Zero1]

~:rolleyes:


Edit-Damn, you deathmetal heads are soo freakin fanatical, if the music at any point gets more complex then some guy grunting, repetetive guitarrifts with no lead breaks that sound like steel plates grating against one another, boomcrash drumming with no rolls and a bassline you can't even hear you're all "OMFG DEY SUXXOR JOO S0LD OUT!!!!1!124331seven!!1"

Its like anything with any level of complexity or musicianship makes your brain hurt trying to contemplate it, so you lash out.

[GoreBag]

Actually, I just made a Manowar reference.

[Zero1]

Geh, sorry, I'm just used to having to defend myself from all sides whenever I mention I like COF...sorry :bow:

[GoreBag]

Geh, sorry, I'm just used to having to defend myself from all sides whenever I mention I like COF...sorry :bow:

Well, I wouldn't say CoF are great musicians. I actually find the music rather boring. I can't stand to listen to it anymore.

Dimmu Borgir's older stuff is alright, I guess. I liked Enthrone Darkness Triumphant, but it was mostly for the way the piano was layered. I never CoB at all...too much like power metal. Amorphis had one catchy song, but I didn't like the rest of it I heard.

In any case, it has nothing to do with musicianship or technical ability. The musicians who play technical DM are far beyond the bands you listed in terms of talent and proficiency, and I'm not just arguing with you because we have different tastes in music.

[Zero1]

Well, provide an example, what do you mean by technical proficency.

I mean, COB have a note for note riff for riff KB guitar interplay that I have yet to see duplicated. Amorphis' lead guitarist has an EXCELLENT blues style of playing with plenty of technical lead breaks.

When I listen to say Morbid Angel or any of the more classical Deathmetal bands, I first of all hear no lead breaks in the guitarwork and that puts me off immediately, and the drumming sounds more like booming and crashing then a roll.

I've always liked Dimmy Borgir, and I've always heard people say their new stuff isnt good but I still fail to see how.

[GoreBag]

Well, provide an example, what do you mean by technical proficency.

I mean, COB have a note for note riff for riff KB guitar interplay that I have yet to see duplicated. Amorphis' lead guitarist has an EXCELLENT blues style of playing with plenty of technical lead breaks.

When I listen to say Morbid Angel or any of the more classical Deathmetal bands, I first of all hear no lead breaks in the guitarwork and that puts me off immediately, and the drumming sounds more like booming and crashing then a roll.

I've always liked Dimmy Borgir, and I've always heard people say their new stuff isnt good but I still fail to see how.

Well, what do you mean by "musicianship"? Here, have you heard of Cryptopsy, Necrophagist or, say, Severed Savior? They're technical DM. It's tight, it's groovy, and it's very, very difficult to play.

I find most Morbid Angel boring too. The new album's not bad, though. Good music for drinking and playing pool.

I find CoB formulaic and predictable. I fight with my friends over this all the time.

The thing with Dimmu Borgir and CoF is that they DID sell out. Their early albums sound nothing like they new ones do. The latest Dimmu Borgir is okay, I guess, but it's a step down, even from Puritanical Euphoric Misanthropia, which wasn't that great either (but Puritania was a nice one-off track).

Oh, yeah. Have you heard Nile? Tell me you've heard Nile.

[ScionTheWorm]

There's generally nothing wrong with melodic and fusion death metal, in contrirary it's great. But Pestilence had such a good thing going on their second album, and their later ones were just average.

I listened to the kind of bands you mention before, but now it's party metal for me, never listening to it alone. i'm a former iced earth and blind guardian fan actually, and I still think their older stuff is great, but they have all gone berserk now with experimenting. have seen CoB three times live now, and I must say it's some of the greatest concerts I've been to, even though I've been pretty much passed out. mush pits, crowd surfing, chicks flashing... good rock'n roll. though I don't think they're the most technical musicians, they are in a pretty high degree show offs, totally guitar mastrubation ~D have you heard two-three songs, you've pretty much heard them all, in my opinion. janne wirrmann(sp) is great btw

I don't really care about the amount of technical stuff anymore, it's the music that counts. though I prefer technical music.

gimme chuck shuldiner (rip) on guitar and vocals, paul masvidal on 2nd guitar, steve digiorgio on bass and gene hoglan on drums, you've pretty much got the best musicians ever together. oh that's nearly the lineup on human

I have yet to see chuck's music being "duplicated"... so many have tried, but nobody ever come near

I agree enthroned is the best dimmu album, and the two latest isn't quite there.
early manowar rules
hell, I love jeff tweedy, johnny cash and even bluegrass appeals to me

i think cof is totally sellout... I require at least some artistic integrity

if you want to hear technical stuff that's pretty melodic, get a hand of martyr's "warp zone". It's so great.... one of the best albums this decade, yet so undiscovered

[ScionTheWorm]

I just couldn't resist... not that this is technical death metal, more like heavy metal with distorted vocals, but anyway it's something I made a couple of years ago. haven't got so much opinions on them so... well I know I don't sing that well, but I don't know anybody else either that's avaliable. the drums are programmed, but by me so it's almost like I'm playing them myself, right? ~D

http://rapidshare.de/files/5167845/Artefact_-_Melstrom.mp3.html
http://rapidshare.de/files/5168140/Artefact_-_Withered.mp3.html
http://rapidshare.de/files/5168283/Artefact_-_Horizon.mp3.html

(btw artefact was my "band"-name, but then I discovered somebody had already taken that name when I stumbeled into a concert... damn have to find another name)

[Rodion Romanovich]

Wow Scion, that's some serious stuff! Really nice!