Campaign map [Archive]

Rodion Romanovich

06-05-2005, 14:58

This thread is for discussions about the campaign map.

Here are some samples of the achievements so far:
======================================
Example of campaign map - Scandinavia in winter time:
https://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y191/LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix/winter.jpg

Known issues:
- provinces, cities, rivers, heights etc. aren't ready yet, this is just a very early alpha version of the map
- mini map - not all of the map is displayed on the minimap. This is being solved ATM.

Loading screens:
=============
--- Temporarily removed ---

Province list:
==========
1 - Aquitaine - Limoges
2 - Gascogne - Bordeaux
3 - Brittany - Rennes
4 - Neustria/Maine/Anjou - Orléans (could be replaced by Le Mans or Angers)
5 - Septimania - Montpellier (could be replaced by Narbonnes)
6 - Provence - Marseilles
7 - Burgundy - Besancon
8 - France - Paris
9 - Flanders - Boulogne
10 - Upper Normandy - Rouen
11 - Lower Normandy - Avranches
12 - Spanish March - Barcelona
13 - Navarre - Pamplona
14 - Castilla - Burgos
15 - Leon - Oviedo (could be remplaced by Leon -the city)
16 - Gallicia - Oporto (could be replaced by Santiago de Compostela)
17 - Toulouse - Toulouse
18 - Badajoz - Badajoz
19 - Toledo - Toledo
20 - Zaragoza - Zaragoza
21 - Valencia - Valencia (I don't know if this place was an independant Emirate or part of Cordoba during the 9th century)
22 - Almeria - Almeria
23 - Granada - Granada
24 - Cordova - Cordova
25 - Sevilla - Sevilla
26 - Novgorod - Novgorod
27 - Polotsk - Polotsk
28 - Smolensk - Smolensk
29 - Rostov-Suzdal - Rostov (could be replaced be either Vladimir or Suzdal)
30 - Kiev - Kiev
31 - Pereiaslav - Pereiaslav
32 - Chernihiv - Ryazan
33 - Volhynia - Brest
34 - Galich - Galich
35 - Estonia ? - ???
36 - Livonia ? - ???
37 - Lithuania - ???
38 - Prussia - ???
39 - Pomerania - Kolberg
40 - Mazovia - Plock
41 - Chrobatia - Cracow
42 - Polania - Posen
43 - Friesland - Utrecht
44 - Ripuaria (could be Upper Lorraine/Lotharingia) - Aix la Chapelle
45 - Moselle (could be Lower Lorraine/Lotharingia) - Strasburg
46 - Liguria - Genoa
47 - Tuscany - Florence (Pisa ?)
48 - States of the Church - Roma
49 - Spoleto - Spoleto
50 - Venetia - Venice
51 - Friuli - Aquileia
52 - Croatia - Sissek
53 - Servia - ???
54 - Lombardy - Milan
55 - Alemannia - Zurich
56 - Franconia - Frankfort
57 - Saxonnia - Bremen
58 - Transalbingia - Hamburg
59 - March of the Billungs - Oldenburg
60 - NordMark - Brandenburg
61 - OstMark - Juterbog
62 - Bohemia - Prague
63 - Bavaria - Salzburg
64 - Moravia - Olmutz
65 - Silesia - Breslau
66 - Carinthia - Fiesach
67 - Cherson - Cherson
68 - Tmoutarakan - Tmoutarakan
69 - Levédia - ??? (land of the Magyars in 840/850)
70 - Etelköz - ??? (land of the Magyars in 840/850)
71 - Pannonia - Ofen
72 - Avarorum Solitudo - Kaliesa (sp?)
73 - Carpathia - Erlau
74 - Transylvania - ???
75 - Banat - Vidin
76 - Dalmatia - Ragusa
77 - Dyrrachium - Dyrrachium
78 - Nicopolis - Nicopolis
79 - Peloponnesus - Corinthes
80 - Hellas - Athens
81 - Thessalonica - Salonica
82 - Macedonia - Andrianople
83 - Thrace - Constantinople
======================
Suggested additions/edits to list above:
Lithuania - Daugava
Estonia -> Revala - Revala (location same as modern Tallinn)
Prussia - Truso (lies just east of modern Gdansk)
Tuscany - I favor Pisa over Florence in this time period
Add: Mistra - Mistra on southern Pelopponessus, should be a Byzantine-owned small town

NORWAY AREA
* Hordaland - Bergen (town) (rebels)
* Hafrsfjord (rebels) - Nord-Jaeren / Stafangr
* Vaestfold - Kaupang (position close to Oslo but further down the fiord)
* Trondelag - Trondheim (town)
* Hologaland (modern Lofots area and mainland next to it) - Narvik
* Northern Norway - Tromso
* Finnmark - Kirkenes (situated next to Barents Sea and modern Russian border)

DENMARK AREA
* Sjaelland - Roskilde
* Holseta Land (modern Nordfriesland, in modern Schleswig-Holstein area) - Haithabu / Hedeby
* North Jutland - Aalborg or Viborg
* Middle Jutland - Jelling

ICELAND AREA
* Iceland - Reyjkjavik

IRELAND AREA
* Midhe (Meath) - Teamhaidh (Tara) (rebels)
* Ulaid (Ulster) - Armagh (strong viking rebels)
* Laigin (Leinster) - Ferns (strong viking rebels)
* Muma (Munster) - Cashel (rebels)
* Connaught (Connacht) - Tuam (owned by Irish)
* Dubh Linn - Dubh Linn (viking rebels)

RUSSIA AND STEPPES AREA
Add: Volga-Bulgaria - Bolgar (at volga-kama bifurcation)
Add: (PROVINCE NAME NEEDED) - Sarkel (just southeast of Donets/Don bifurcation)
Add: (PROVINCE NAME NEEDED) - Timutarkan
Add: (PROVINCE NAME NEEDED) - Atil (at Volga delta)

NORTH AFRICA AREA
(province names are incorrect, but the cities listed here should be included IMO)
* Morocco/Mauretania - Tanger
* Tunisia - Tunis
* Fezzan (Sahara) - Ghadamis and/or Djavan
* Tripolitania - Tripoli
* Cyrenaica - Barka
* Libya - Alexandria
* Egypt (also covering the Sinai) - Cairo / Fostat or Mephis
* Nubia - Assuan - although the map won't reach down to Nubia it'd probably be best to have a nubia province. This is the only recruitment zone for abyssinian guard and other nubian troops.

GERMANY AND EASTERN EUROPE AREA
(Some suggestions for cities to perhaps add:)
Add: Francia Orientalis/Francia (Franconia, north of Swabia) - Magontia?/Mains
Add: Thuringia (north of Franconia) - Erfurt
Add: Saxonia - Jumme / Jomsborg
Perhaps add: Regensburg
Servia - Doclea
- Should Constantinople's province really be called Thrace? I suggest name changed to Constantinople, and call province north of that Thrace. I can find a city for that province, I know there is one there on a historical map I have of the area.

BRITAIN AREA
Scotland
* Strathclyde - Dumbarton
* Fortriu - Dunkeld
* Dal riada - Dunadd or Iona
* Hebrides/Orkney (includes Sutherland and Caithness) - Kirkwall
* Lothian - Edinburgh
Wales
* Gywnedd - Bangor
* Deheubarth - Dinefwr (north of Swansea)
* Dyfed - St David's
* West Wealas / Cerniu / Cornwall (welsh-held, southwest England) - Isca (modern Exeter)
Saxons and rebels
* West seaxe (Wessex) - Winchester
* East seaxe (Essex) - London
* Kent - Canterbury (if it will fit)
* Mierce (Mercia) - Chester
* East Anglia - Norwich
* Northumberland (Northumbria) - York

ASIA MINOR AREA
* Paphlagonia - Sinope
* Trebizond - Trebizond
* Opsikion - Nikaia / Nicaea
* Thrakesion - Pergamum
* Anatolikon - Iconium
* Cappadocia - Ankara / Ancyra / Angora
* Lesser Armenia - Tarsus
* Edessa - Edessa
* Armenia - Tiflis

MIDDLE EAST AREA
(not complete, Aleppo needs to be added, among other settlements, and province names aren't good)
* Antiokeia - Antiokeia
* Tripolis - Tripolis
* Palestine - Jerusalem
* Syria - Damascus
* Arabia - Medina
* Baghdad - Baghdad
* Mosul - Mosul
* Basra - Basra

MEDITERRANEAN ISLANDS
* Sicily - Palermo
* Baliares - Palma
* Corsica - Bastia (at northern tip)
* Sardinia - Caralis/Cagliari
* Cyprus - Nicosia
* Crete - Candia / Kandia
* Rhodes - Rhodos

FINLAND AND BALTIC AREA
(the information needed for the Finland and Baltic area provinces has been borrowed from the FURY OF THE NORSEMEN mod with their permission, thanks ~:cheers: ):
Finland:
* Haeme (Häme, middle west coast of Finland) - Kokemäki (slightly south of modern Vaasa)
* Vakka-Suomi (southwest coast of Finland) - Turku (same place as modern Turku)
* Karjala (means Karelia I presume, north of Lake Ladoga, stretching far up north) - Kaekisalmi (Käkisalmi, at northwestern tip of Lake Ladoga)
* Kainuunmaa (north west coast) - Kainuu (far north)
* Inkerinmaa/Ingria - Laatoknakaupunki (very close to Novgorod but situated at the southern shore of Lake Ladoga)
Further south:
* Livonia - ? (north of Lithuania)
* Saaremaa (the island at opening of Gulf of Riga) - Kuressaare (city is the larger of the two islands at the opening of Gulf of Riga)
* Courland/Curland (southwest half of Lativa) - Seeburg (southeast modern Lativa area)

SWEDEN AREA
* Ostgothia - Vadstena
* Waestrogothia - Skara
* Gotland - Visby
* Smaland - ?
* Samiland - Sápmi
* Halland - Loedoese
* Skani - Uppaakra or Lund

(the following two haven't been decided yet - the cities have been decided but not the province names yet):
* Svealand or Tiundaland - Birka
* Uppland - Uppsala

Factions conversion list:
==================
FRANKISH
romans_julii -> Holy roman empire
romans_brutii -> Lotharingia
romans_scipii -> France
romans_senate -> Papal states

WESTERN
gauls -> Asturia
germans -> Normans
britons -> Saxons
dacia -> Welsh
scythia -> Scots
spain -> Irish

TURKISH
parthia -> Khazars
pontus -> Bulgars
armenia -> Magyars

ARABIC
carthage -> Al Andalus
numidia -> Abbassids

GREEK
egypt -> Byzantines

NORSE
seleucid -> Norway
greek_cities -> Sweden
macedon -> Denmark
thrace -> Rus

slave

shifty157

06-05-2005, 22:21

i really like the loading screens.

GoreBag

06-06-2005, 03:39

The first two remind me of Kittelsen paintings.

shifty157

06-06-2005, 14:24

The first two remind me of Kittelsen paintings.

The third one reminds me of the opening scene in the movie Gladiator.

GoreBag

06-06-2005, 22:09

The third one reminds me of the opening scene in the movie Gladiator.

Man, I hate that movie.

Rodion Romanovich

06-07-2005, 16:55

I'm glad you liked the loading screens. I'll post some more soon. The first one above is made from a photo near where the battle of Hastings was fought. The second one is also made from a photo, but it's more heavily edited. The village was originally some 19th century village or so, so I had to remove windows and too advanced chimneys and change shape of the roofs in order to give it a dark age look. The third one is also made from a photo taken during Scandinavian winter...

I'll post one loading screen from where Kaupang was located, and another one with the Icelandic coast soon, unless the pictures I've got turn out to not be suited for becoming loading screens.

Also, I've gotten far with the map_ground_types.tga which I might post by the end of this week. It'll, apart from showing the ground types, also show the final plan for where coastlines will be, which lakes and islands are included, and how large the map will be. I think it'll go much faster to fix the heights and climates maps, and then only the regions and features maps are needed before I can start testing the maps. Unfortunately there have been many delays due to replanning of provinces and settlements over and over again. This time I'm making the terrain first and will prepare a map for provinces and cities so I can quickly fill them in when I find out which of them will be included.

ScionTheWorm

06-08-2005, 14:26

Hi just thinking about the loading screens... I think they're great the ones over, and this is just an idea... what about take some in-game screenshots and make them like paintings in dark colors...? Gives some dark age, world on fire-feeling I think. Okay this is just a thought, here is some quick example I made to illustrate:

http://img174.echo.cx/img174/1600/ls15sv.th.jpg (http://img174.echo.cx/my.php?image=ls15sv.jpg)

Rodion Romanovich

06-08-2005, 14:42

I was thinking about doing something with in-game shots too, but at that time I didn't have any skinned units for the mod ready. Your picture looks good, but I don't think we should have that much fire, and rather stick to a realistic-looking color scale, for the sky. A real sky at sunset looks red enough IMO.

For loading screens in general I think a mix of calm natural views and battle pictures would be good for loading screens. Also, for the battle pictures I think it would be cool if we used a more complex terrain and arrange the exact battle scene we want in a custom battle or in multiplayer with each other to get the pictures we want.

ScionTheWorm

06-08-2005, 14:54

I agree, the example was really just to illustrate what i meant, it was not as a candidate. I think in-game screens will look great when more units arrive (I can see it; hordes of spear in the background, dust, fire, death) heh :duel:

If integrated with some photographs (towns, backgrounds, fire) and some artistic filters in photoshop it would really be something. I think it should be dark, but if not, at least have some consistency in the colors (like vanilla rome with red loading screens, a little boring with one color though..).

I mean a bearly edited in-game screenshot is still just a screen-shot. should be something more. (I think this is actually very important, it sets the mood for the whole experience. agree?)

ScionTheWorm

06-08-2005, 22:16

Rodion Romanovich

06-09-2005, 11:09

I think this is actually very important, it sets the mood for the whole experience. agree?

Yes, I agree to that. Unfortunately I felt restricted to make it look more like a painting because the graphics you get on the campaign map and the battle field rendering doesn't look that dark either. I don't know what others think but I'd go for a combination of say 5 edited battle scenes screenshots and around 10 nature pictures from Nordic winter landscapes. The battle screenshots could be really cool if we arranged them well.

Here are some suggestions for new loading screens ideas (some are nature views, others are battle scenes):

1. a small army on a hill in the foreground, looking down on a huge army below in the background.
2. half-way through a chargefrom the best knights into a flank of the enemy
3. some hand-to-hand combat with all units mixed up with each other
4. a burning village with viking raiders running around with torches and swords (this one will probably have to be a combination of own images and in-game screenshots - perhaps it's too complicated)
5. a naked, snow-covered field, with dead bodies lying in the foreground, and a battle scene far in the background
6. icelandic southern coast
7. a norwegian fiord seen from the sea or perhaps from an inland mountain
8. a forest of thin trees edited so it's looks really eerie
9. a Rus siege of Constantinople
10. a Viking siege of Paris

Rodion Romanovich

06-09-2005, 11:10

Considered this?

More than two turns a year (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=44648)

I've always wanted that myself, but maybe it won't fit the plan. Just wondered if you've thought about it

I don't know, it might be too complex to add it. Otherwise we could always add it in version 2, or at least have a look at it and post here in our forums instructions for how to adapt that mod to our mod for those who are interested.

ScionTheWorm

06-09-2005, 11:23

1. a small army on a hill in the foreground, looking down on a huge army below in the background
2. half-way through a chargefrom the best knights into a flank of the enemy
3. some hand-to-hand combat with all units mixed up with each other
4. a burning village with viking raiders running around with torches and swords (this one will probably have to be a combination of own images and in-game screenshots - perhaps it's too complicated)
5. a naked, snow-covered field, with dead bodies lying in the foreground, and a battle scene far in the background
6. icelandic southern coast
7. a norwegian fiord seen from the sea or perhaps from an inland mountain
8. a forest of thin trees edited so it's looks really eerie
9. a Rus siege of Constantinople
10. a Viking siege of Paris

Would like to have more teammembers discussing this. I don't feel like white/gray winter landscapes gives the right mood, like the one with the bird (specie: dompap in norwegian?), i think it should either be open and very nice landscapes, something with a specific culture, or something with war (mainly this). I think your suggestions is very good though!!

4. a burning village with viking raiders running around with torches and swords (this one will probably have to be a combination of own images and in-game screenshots - perhaps it's too complicated)
This would be great!

I think screenshots/parts of screenshots should be used all pictures containing troops and military for consistency. We could get really great shots with the "free zoom"-mod (we can zoom out as far as we want + we can get the frog-perspective). With some artistic filters it could easely be integrated with other images, as for instance a burning village. As for colours I agree they should not be as dark as my example, but they should have a tendency to be dominated by one or two neutral colours (I think a little dark-gray-blue would do).

ScionTheWorm

06-09-2005, 11:35

I don't know, it might be too complex to add it. Otherwise we could always add it in version 2, or at least have a look at it and post here in our forums instructions for how to adapt that mod to our mod for those who are interested.

I think it could be implemented, could at worst get help from the mod-developer. Anyway, I wonder about your thoughts on how it would affect gameplay. I think:
- More realistic distances when armies are marching. A country could be taken in one year, or lost in one year.
- Longer time to constructing buildings; maybe this would be negative, because getting new units and such would take twice as it would if not..

Of course it might me better with 2 turns a year, this is only to show that there's an option.

Rodion Romanovich

06-09-2005, 11:54

Ok, no dompap then :). I like the village though, it looked good even when resized to cover the entire screen. R:TW uses 1024*768 resolution for the loading screens so some screens I made and thought looked good became ugly when covering the entire screen. I think we could remove the battle of Hastings site image too, and only keep the village. It's the only shot I was completely satisfied with.

skeletor

06-09-2005, 12:07

LegioXXX, have you looked in to the user-interface files? Alot of things there have to be canged to get rid of the Roman/greek styles.

If your working on it, I'll leave it alone, if not, i think i have a look at it..

-Skel-

Rodion Romanovich

06-09-2005, 12:50

You mean fonts and things such as team number being I, II, III, IV, V etc.? I haven't done any work on it yet, I've been too busy with the campaign map, researching and doing test graphics for faction symbols etc.

skeletor

06-09-2005, 12:53

I ment these. We need to change the roman and greek buildings and stuff.

http://img202.exs.cx/img202/1917/stratpage022kl.jpg

http://img202.exs.cx/img202/2249/sharedpage016fq.th.jpg

-Skel-

Rodion Romanovich

06-09-2005, 12:57

Aha ok, those need to be fixed too, yes. The faction symbols part of them I'll fix at the same time I fix the faction symbols for the menu, but if you like you can change the other images. Otherwise I can do that after I've completed the campaign map terrain.

ScionTheWorm

06-10-2005, 23:59

what style/theme will the userinterface have?

The Stranger

06-11-2005, 01:17

I ment these. We need to change the roman and greek buildings and stuff.

http://img202.exs.cx/img202/1917/stratpage022kl.jpg

http://img202.exs.cx/img202/2249/sharedpage016fq.th.jpg

-Skel-

where tha fak did you get that from

Rodion Romanovich

06-12-2005, 10:06

what style/theme will the userinterface have?

Some general dark age theme, I think. Also more in blue-grey-silver color scale rather than the vanilla R:TW red-yellow-gold one.

ScionTheWorm

06-12-2005, 10:47

Some general dark age theme, I think. Also more in blue-grey-silver color scale rather than the vanilla R:TW red-yellow-gold one.

sounds great.

and i guess we'll have to make some other pictures for the familytree?

King Ragnar

06-12-2005, 11:00

Just an idea, but if we wanted we could get the family pictures from M:TW and Viking invasion.

Rodion Romanovich

06-12-2005, 11:38

sounds great.

and i guess we'll have to make some other pictures for the familytree?

Just an idea, but if we wanted we could get the family pictures from M:TW and Viking invasion

Is it legal to use the family pics from M:TW and VI just like that? If yes, it'd save a lot of work to use them. Otherwise, I think we could always make some own pics based on paintings and sculptures of rulers and similar, as well as archaelogical material such as helmets etc. to make them.

Rodion Romanovich

06-12-2005, 11:40

where tha fak did you get that from

It's somewhere in the Data folder, I can't remember exactly where but I can find the file again if I only look through all subfolders etc.

ScionTheWorm

06-12-2005, 11:57

Rodion Romanovich

06-12-2005, 12:23

I think we should use them if possible. Don't know about the legal issues though, but I would guess we could use them.

Are you sure the faction colours to for instance saxon shall be white and blue? On the battle map, if they're associated with the britons. Or maybe it can be changed?

Faction colors should be possible to change, but I've so far gotten errors when changing the colors. Anyway factions can only be changed to another faction within the same group above. For saxons the possibilities are therefore: gauls, germans, britons, dacia, scythia and spain

King Ragnar

06-12-2005, 12:56

On the legal issue about using the Family portraits, maybe one of us could write an e-mail to CA and ask them for permission.

Rodion Romanovich

06-13-2005, 10:39

On the legal issue about using the Family portraits, maybe one of us could write an e-mail to CA and ask them for permission.

Yeah, but then I suggest we do it when the mod is in a more finished state, perhaps when we have around 30 skins and the entire campaign map ready. Otherwise they might just not bother giving us permission, I think.

Rodion Romanovich

06-13-2005, 10:40

I'm proud to present map_ground_types.tga:
https://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y191/LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix/map_ground_types.gif

That's one of the two most time-consuming projects in the campaign map making process, and now that it's finished I'll start work on map_FE and map_heights etc. I'll then make sure the province list is completed and add provinces. The map_ground_types.tga has been based on a great number of maps, photos, studies of differences in terrain now compared to then etc. etc., and it has been created in Paint clicking one pixel at the time with the maps as base.

Edit: oops, this wasn't the final version. Some lakes are in bright red instead of dark red, but in the final version they have the right color. Anyway, the rest is correct on this version of the map.

skeletor

06-13-2005, 11:50

WOW Legio, that looks really great..

I have tried to edit maps myself, so i know how mutch work it is..
Really love thework on thenorthern parts, Iceland, Russia, and Scandinavia ++ looks fantastic. ~:cheers:

I'm really looking forward to see the complete prowince map ready...

-Skel-

The Stranger

06-13-2005, 16:02

wow big map

ScionTheWorm

06-20-2005, 18:05

wow!!! didn't see that until now! excellent, wondered how it was going.. really like the northern parts. is there any researching that must be done before making the provinces?

Rodion Romanovich

06-20-2005, 21:42

wow!!! didn't see that until now! excellent, wondered how it was going.. really like the northern parts. is there any researching that must be done before making the provinces?

Well, the area around modern Poland and south to the balkans area would need some more research. But it's not only one map .tga left to do, there are loads of them, like 10 or so... Also a lot of txt-file editing. Now that the team is fairly large and I don't need to help with skinning, I've decided to make the map much more detailed and worked-through and it'll therefore probably take longer than the two weeks that I said first. Also I'm not sure it'll all work when I first put it together, so I might need some more time for testing before it'll be finished. I'll try to get map_heights and map_roughness ready quickly, then I'll present map_regions as soon as the research about the area from Poland and south to the Balkans is complete.

eadingas

06-24-2005, 10:18

btw, it doesn't matter really what color are the lakes, just as long as they're water.

Rodion Romanovich

06-24-2005, 15:23

btw, it doesn't matter really what color are the lakes, just as long as they're water.

ok, but they have to be one of the three allowed sea colors, don't they? I think I used a fourth red color temporarily during the work with the map so I would see the lakes before coloring them in the darkest sea color. Anyway, thanks for the tip. It would probably be more practical to have all the lakes in the brightest water color so they're easier to spot against the often dark background.

Incongruous

06-28-2005, 11:43

ScionTheWorm

06-28-2005, 11:47

we understand you, you don't need to double post all the time ~:)

Rodion Romanovich

06-28-2005, 15:50

Ok, you just listed that the Magyars as being cinverted into Armenia, they should be around the area of Scythia, Tribus Gatea, Bosphorus and possibly Maeotis.
Sorry another attack of bad english, I hope it helps

No, Armenia -> Magyars means we'll use the hardcoded Armenia faction in R:TW to change to Magyars. Which faction you choose to remake doesn't matter except in that those with the same culture in R:TW gets the same culture in the mod. We haven't decided the magyar provinces yet, see the Provinces thread. Most of the provinces west of Kiev and east of the Holy roman empire aren't complete yet. If you have any good suggestions about which cities should be included in the area east of the Holy roman empire and west of Kiev, feel free to post those suggestions in the Provinces thread. Which cities are going to be included is more important than how the provinces are divided, but if you have good province names too we're interested.

skeletor

07-01-2005, 09:29

I have planted some seeds for the mod at the RTR forum, and some of them have turned in to interesting discusions... Specially this about the Byzantine Empire... Worth a watch http://www.rometotalrealism.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=993

-Skel-

ScionTheWorm

07-01-2005, 10:45

The extent of Total War-gamer's history knowledge never stop to surprise me... just wondering as I'm not in a mood for finding out myself, when did the byzantine empire go under?

Incongruous

07-01-2005, 10:58

I beleive in 1453. Don't listen to that Romanus guy, he said that the Byzantine Empire was at its zenith during the time period of this game so clearly he has no real knowladge of the, ~;)
But Apostate has a great knowladge, wow!

Rodion Romanovich

07-01-2005, 14:05

In 1204, Constantinople was sacked by the fourth crusade, thanks to the Venetians who were enemies of Constantinople due to how trade in Constantinople was favored to the Genoese and others. Then for many years there was no Byzantine empire, until a guy united some of the men again and took Constantinople. They survived the mongols and many years of emnity with Turkish tribes, but in 1453, the Ottoman turks, having been beated by Timur Lenk and pushed to strengthen their small colonies in the Balkans area, thought Constantinople was the next logical step for their expansion. After Timur Lenk's empire had gone, the Ottoman turks had retaken their positions in Asia minor and thus had an empire both in Balkans and Asia minor with Constantinople in the middle being like an isle in the middle of their empire. The Byzantines (or Latin empire which it was called after the reuniting after the 1204 disaster), hadn't got much of an army to resist the invasion. The had also got a flourishing economy and hired the best European artillery along with their own, and could completely crush the walls of the city. The inferiority in numbers of the Byzzies, perhaps around 1 to 10, had been able to resist before the advanced artillery came, but now they were chanceless. They also seem to have had a much weaker fleet and didn't use the greek fire that had killed so many earlier naval assaults on the city, so the ottomans could attack from the sea as well.

According to what I've read, the Byzzies had been steadily losing power up to 843 AD, but then things calmed down and they had a golden age for a few centuries. In 1071, they were defeated so badly at Manzikert that it ended the golden age and started a steady decline of the empire which continued until in 1204 AD. The loss of good provinces made them unable to recruit the skilled troops they had been using previously, and the general loss of land made their economy decline, meaning they could no longer pay their mercenaries. Most mercenaries therefore refused to fight in 1204, according to the legend only the varangians tried to resist the crusaders when they entered the city but they were vastly outnumbered and soon had to give up.

Also, 1204 wasn't the first time the empire was nearly destroyed. During the muslim expansions, the greek fire and great fortifications of Constantinople, as well as some luck, saved an otherwise much weakened empire from destruction. Same thing happened when the bulgars came. The bulgars defeated them in the open but couldn't siege the city to death (the bulgars didn't have much of a fleet so they only tried land assault). Then there was also a viking siege of the city. The viking siege was apparently the most successful one, probably because they had a great fleet. They recieved a tribute among other things. But it wasn't unil in 1204 that the city really fell.

eadingas

07-01-2005, 14:25

There was also an expedition of Kiev princes, who fared quite well in besieging the city. They received major trade benefits and tribute.
It seems Constantinople wasn't such a tough nut to crack after all :)

ScionTheWorm

07-02-2005, 18:11

Hehe fooling around.. thought we could have an axe like this for the intro background. If we can get some info on how to make an animation, I'll make the light on the axe move; would look really cool in my opinion. Now it's just a... wallpaper or something ~;) made it myself (or composited it myself or whatever)

https://img238.imageshack.us/img238/2627/prevaofscr12le.th.jpg (https://img238.imageshack.us/my.php?image=prevaofscr12le.jpg)
Edit:
https://img224.imageshack.us/img224/663/prevaofscr25mt.th.jpg (https://img224.imageshack.us/my.php?image=prevaofscr25mt.jpg)
~D

Rodion Romanovich

07-02-2005, 19:53

Wow, cool!

ScionTheWorm

07-02-2005, 20:32

The good quotes gets some rewards... heh
https://img284.imageshack.us/img284/9935/prevaofsc30nn.th.jpg (https://img284.imageshack.us/my.php?image=prevaofsc30nn.jpg)

ah love doing this...

ScionTheWorm

07-02-2005, 22:04

A real badass. Found no quote to fit it, so I ran an old Bathory classic. Shrinked it for better browser view...
https://img202.imageshack.us/img202/2043/prevaofscr47bl.th.jpg (https://img202.imageshack.us/my.php?image=prevaofscr47bl.jpg)

ScionTheWorm

07-02-2005, 22:47

Sad one...
https://img199.imageshack.us/img199/6867/prevaofscr58ys.th.jpg (https://img199.imageshack.us/my.php?image=prevaofscr58ys.jpg)

Edit:
Sorry the quotes may not always fit, but that's always what I start with and then make the pic... I think maybe it should not be used on this one...

ScionTheWorm

07-02-2005, 23:17

btw legio, pic nr 3 (drinking olav) is what I ment for loading screens some time ago. with some screenshots I could make tons of cool pictures
ops nothing wrong with my selfesteem today...

skeletor

07-03-2005, 00:25

The good quotes gets some rewards... heh
https://img284.imageshack.us/img284/9935/prevaofsc30nn.th.jpg (https://img284.imageshack.us/my.php?image=prevaofsc30nn.jpg)

ah love doing this...

I really fell for this one.. superbe ~:cheers:

Do you think you can make someone in the same genre with christian and islam motives?

Keap on making those tons, i sent you some screens by mail now. ~:cool:

-Skel-

ScionTheWorm

07-03-2005, 00:35

sure. haven't got any mail though

GoreBag

07-03-2005, 23:06

Those loading screens are fucking metal. They all kick ass. I'm also very pleased that my quotes made it in. ~D

ScionTheWorm

07-03-2005, 23:42

give us some more excellent satanic or sentimental-as-hell quotes ~:) , and let me be inspired...

stay metal

Renly

07-04-2005, 00:14

GoreBag

07-04-2005, 00:42

give us some more excellent satanic or sentimental-as-hell quotes ~:) , and let me be inspired...

stay metal

Deal. Coming right up.

Zero1

07-04-2005, 00:52

Need some righteous Pagan metalhead quotes?, I think I could be of some help there ~D

GoreBag

07-04-2005, 02:25

I just saved some of them for desktop and background images. I'm eager to see some more. Maybe the loading screens should have their own thread?

ScionTheWorm

07-04-2005, 07:48

skeletor

07-04-2005, 08:47

Islamic quotes:

Slay them wherever you find them. Drive them out of the places from which they drove you. Idolatry is worse than carnage.

Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home: an evil fate.

We arrange unhappy events among mankind so that God may test the true believers and select some of you to become martyrs. He does not love the evil doers. He will test the faithful and will annihilate the infidels

Did you really believe that you would enter paradise before God tested your commitment to fight for him and to endure suffering with fortitude? God loves the steadfast.

"Be content with what Allaah has given you, and you will be the richest of people."

Slay the Idolaters wherever you find them. Seize them, surround them and everywhere lie in ambush for them. But if they repent from their wrong beliefs and establish regular prayers and pay Zakah, then spare their lives. God is Oft-Forgiving and Ever Merciful.

"If you should die or be slain in the cause of God, His forgiveness and His mercy would surely be better than all the riches..."

"Muhammad is God's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another."

I like these best:

Have no fear of man. Fear me.

"Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God's religion shall reign supreme."

"Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it."

"Fight for the cause of God with the devotion due to Him...He has given you the name of Muslims..."

God creates you weak. After weakness he gives you strength.

Fight for the sake of God those that fight against you, but do not attack them first. God does not love the aggressors.

-Skel-

Rodion Romanovich

07-04-2005, 10:35

will make a few more first and then start a thread. I have some badass ideas to loading screens now. I can certaintly use neongods new ones, but I have an idea which requires an authentic historical quote about the greatness of christianity (or islam) - if anyone has such a thing up in their sleeve - would be great. Will also make some for the eastern steppe culture, islam etc, but if not, they will certaintly appear when the units and screenshots are coming. I think they will all contain some kind of wartheme, not only nature or medieval people.

Btw does anyone know the max number of loadingscreens in rtw?

And, I have no idea about how or if your quotes will be used in the mod....

Quotes aren't added on the loading screens manually, but automatically. Unfortunately this means the font of vanilla R:TW quotes will be used. Also, I don't know the maximum number of screenshots but you can have at least 16. I'd guess they've chosen 2565 or any other standard value, but they could also have used a completely different system for coding it and 16 could be the maximum.

ScionTheWorm

07-04-2005, 11:15

Quotes aren't added on the loading screens manually, but automatically. Unfortunately this means the font of vanilla R:TW quotes will be used. Also, I don't know the maximum number of screenshots but you can have at least 16. I'd guess they've chosen 2565 or any other standard value, but they could also have used a completely different system for coding it and 16 could be the maximum.
I know that, that's just to set the picture in context. If we of some reason make dozens, we could cut the quotes in-game and just use it on the pictures.. I for once like having them in right context

ScionTheWorm

07-04-2005, 19:01

Don't mind if potential loading screens has too bright colors . If I/we make a lot of loading screens they will eventually be photoshop'ed so they don't mess up the foreground as a background...

ScionTheWorm

07-04-2005, 19:03

https://img81.imageshack.us/img81/9713/prevaofscr88wt.th.jpg (https://img81.imageshack.us/my.php?image=prevaofscr88wt.jpg)

ScionTheWorm

07-04-2005, 21:17

https://img16.imageshack.us/img16/3849/prevaofscr93cn.th.jpg (https://img16.imageshack.us/my.php?image=prevaofscr93cn.jpg)

:guitarist:

GoreBag

07-04-2005, 21:24

That last one is hilarious! The other one is nice and dramatic, too. I like it.

ScionTheWorm

07-13-2005, 00:45

Thanks to some guidance from Narayanese in Citadel Total War and some experimentation, I've learned a few new things in 3d max. Here is sort of a preview of two units, both very simplified - removed some objects to get it to look good from this perspective, and from this close

Scottish Claiomhnaghta finishing of an irish levy
https://img341.imageshack.us/img341/3818/sc146ib.th.jpg (https://img341.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sc146ib.jpg)

The Wizard

07-13-2005, 00:52

You might also like to include some quotes by Ali ibn Abi Talib, fourth Caliph of Islam.

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Ali_ibn_Abi_Talib

Watch out for those from Peak of Eloquence though; that book was released long after his death by shiites and is known to contain propaganda, totally unbefitting of such an enlightened man as Ali. You'd best go with those at the top, those might be under 'Attributed', but they are his (the heading is incorrect) and not fabricated after his death, when he became a tool for political games.

~Wiz

GoreBag

07-14-2005, 00:48

ScionTheWorm

07-14-2005, 01:22

sorry, I think they would be totally unsynchronized..

GoreBag

07-14-2005, 01:28

I don't think anything can be done about battlefield gore, but a head on parade here or there added solely for atmosphere would work wonders.

Bar Kochba

07-14-2005, 10:26

is it possible to have part of greenlan in this mod or even go all the way to newfoundland or just vinland

Incongruous

07-14-2005, 10:32

I believe that adding in Greenland could be a good idea, could do wonders for infighting among the Viking factions. You could have Greenland rebel, and to ensure that int would be invaded by the vikings simply utilise the Massalia trick. In fact the Massalia trick should be used on the Englisc, and Norman coasts.

As for new foundland, that would just be silly, I mean imagine the amount of time it would take to cross the sea. Plus we'd have to add a new faction, the Ameri-Indians.

eadingas

07-14-2005, 10:38

That trick doesn't really work that well.

Incongruous

07-14-2005, 10:45

Yeah it does, it worked fin on RTR. Its exactly the same as having two provinces naxt to each other, the AI always attacks provinces addjacent to it. But I guess it could be tested.

Bar Kochba

07-15-2005, 15:52

i just recently read this book about vikings i dont know if its historcly acurate its written by tim severin

Meneldil

07-24-2005, 12:54

Rodion Romanovich

07-24-2005, 21:37

Any news on the map ? LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix seems to be away.
Anyway, I'll gladly help with the french, german and spanish provinces (I already made a lot of research for Viking Age -dead- mod, aswell as for Fury of the Northmen -dead- mod for MTW)

Hi, I just came back today ~:) If you have any good research stuff for the provinces in those regions to contribute with, that would be highly appreciated ~:cheers: . That area is semi-researched, but not perfect yet. The worst area in terms of research is however the area from the eastern border of HRE to Novgorod and south down to the Balkans.

Anyway, if you want to help with provinces, here's our policy for choices of provinces/cities:
1. correct choice of cities is more important than choice of province drawings
2. if many cities end up close to each other in one area and very far away from each other in another area that isn't a bad thing - on the contrary it adds depth to the strategy etc.
3. cities should preferably have local names, but if the areas were subject to many owner-changes during the mod period, the most important name during the first 50 years of the mod should probably be used, but it's then up for discussion which name to use.

skeletor

07-25-2005, 10:12

About Spain/Al-andalus.. Finding arabic names to the Caliph held provinces here wold be cool. The muslims held allmost all of spain (atleast the suthern parts) up to the reconquesta mutch laterthen the game ends.

I'll see if there is any arabic maps on that area.

-Skel-

Rodion Romanovich

07-25-2005, 12:44

Ok, but I think there are already city names for the Spain area here: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=48790&page=1&pp=30

Check the post at the very bottom of the page... Didn't find any Arabic province names though

skeletor

07-25-2005, 14:40

Ah, ok, didn't see that, but when do you actually see the provincename?
We could use arabic names for the Caliphate held city's, and use the provincenames as listed in the post.

-Skel-

Meneldil

07-25-2005, 18:27

Legio, I'm going to put up a map as soon as possible :)

I think I might help with HRE Novgorod

Meneldil

07-27-2005, 21:15

Okay, in order to help the mod, I made some research for the possible provinces. I already had a whole lot of map, since I was the map editor of the dead project of Viking Age TW mod.

Here's a first sample of France, Burgundy and Northern spain I made this morning :

https://img126.imageshack.us/img126/5634/ageofvikingsmap2copie2wt.jpg

The province aren't totally accurate for gameplay's sake (ie : Normandy wasn't called Normandy yet, lower Normandy was part of the County of Britany)

Province - City :

1 - Aquitaine - Limoges
2 - Gascogne - Bordeaux
3 - County of Brittany - Rennes
4 - Neustria/County of Maine/County of Anjou - Orléans (could be replaced by Le Mans or Angers)
5 - Septimania - Montpellier (could be replaced by Narbonnes)
6 - Provence - Marseilles
7 - Burgundy - Besancon
8 - France - Paris
9 - Duchy of Flanders (Duché des Flandres) - Boulogne
10 - Upper Normandy - Rouen
11 - Lower Normandy - Avranches
12 - Spanish March - Barcelona
13 - Navarre - Pamplona
14 - Castilla - Burgos
15 - Leon - Oviedo (could be remplaced by Leon -the city)
16 - Gallicia - Oporto (could be replaced by Santiago de Compostela)

What do you think about it ?
Names are subject to change, especially since Latin was I think still the most used language in the administration.

I'll try to complete the southern part of Spain, western germany and then I'll see what I can do for Russia and eastern Europe :)

Obviously, it's not official. I just wanted to help, and I like to study maps and the Viking Age

skeletor

07-27-2005, 21:46

Very very nice...

Using latin names allso fits my vision perfectly. I'm not really sure what Lego has got on those areas, but it looks really good. We might need 1 or 2 more provinces in in central france due to having Normands as a faction in Normandy.

I am not really sure about how far the muslims came, but i imo, the Al-Andalus areas should have muslim names.

Anyway, Legio has the final word in theat mather.

Thnx

-Skel-

GoreBag

07-27-2005, 22:32

Aquitaine is huge! Is there a chance it could be divided into two or more provinces?

Agraes

07-28-2005, 08:31

Normandy wasn't called Normandy yet, lower Normandy was part of the County of Britany)

Brittany was a kingdom at this time ~;)

And became a duchy after the viking invasion and the return from exil of Alan Barbetorte, the grandson of the last king Alan Mawr.

Meneldil

07-28-2005, 09:03

Aquitaine is huge! Is there a chance it could be divided into two or more provinces?

Yeah, we could add the county of Toulouse and another small county like Auvergne or Bourbon

Brittany was a kingdom at this time

And became a duchy after the viking invasion and the return from exil of Alan Barbetorte, the grandson of the last king Alan Mawr.

My mistakes, I'm not really fluent when it comes to brittany history ;)

I've now completed the map of Southern Spain. Since I couldn't find any political division in the Cordova Caliphate, I used a map of the Taifa period (around 1035), when the Muslim spain was not an united country anymore.
I'm now trying to find Russian principalties' political borders.

skeletor

07-28-2005, 09:21

I've now completed the map of Southern Spain. Since I couldn't find any political division in the Cordova Caliphate, I used a map of the Taifa period (around 1035), when the Muslim spain was not an united country anymore.
I'm now trying to find Russian principalties' political borders.

I'm sure those names wold work fine..

Krusader wrote a list of Arabic names for some of the southern city's of Spin. Theese might help you fill some gap's..

Provinces in Spain (with Arabic names):
* Andalusia - Ishbiliya (Sevilla)
* Cordoba - Qurtubah (Cordoba)
* Granada - Gharnatah (Granada)
* Valencia - Balinsiyah (Valencia)
* Castile - Tolaitola (Toledo) (owned by Al Andalus)
* Aragon - Sarakusta (Zaragoza)

-Skel-

Meneldil

07-28-2005, 13:23

Here's in an updated version :

https://img292.imageshack.us/img292/1171/ageofvikingsmap2copie3fo.jpg

Some borders have been fixed, and I added southern Spain aswell as the biggest russian principalties. I first used a map of Russia in 1054, but since it was a bit late for the mod, I fixed some of the borders according to some map of earlier russia.

1 - Aquitaine - Limoges
2 - Gascogne - Bordeaux
3 - Kingdom of Brittany - Rennes
4 - Neustria/County of Maine/County of Anjou - Orléans (could be replaced by Le Mans or Angers)
5 - Septimania - Montpellier (could be replaced by Narbonnes)
6 - Provence - Marseilles
7 - Burgundy - Besancon
8 - France - Paris
9 - Duchy of Flanders (Duché des Flandres) - Boulogne
10 - Upper Normandy - Rouen
11 - Lower Normandy - Avranches
12 - Spanish March - Barcelona
13 - Principalty of Navarre - Pamplona
14 - Kingdom of Castilla - Burgos
15 - Kingdom of Leon - Oviedo (could be remplaced by Leon -the city)
16 - Gallicia - Oporto (could be replaced by Santiago de Compostela)
17 - County of Toulouse - Toulouse
18 - Badajoz - Badajoz
19 - Toledo - Toledo
20 - Emirate of Zaragoza - Zaragoza
21 - Valencia - Valencia (I don't know if this place was an independant Emirate or part of Cordoba during the 9th century)
22 - Almeria - Almeria
23 - Granada - Granada
24 - Cordova - Cordova
25 - Sevilla - Sevilla
26 - (Principalty of ?) Novgorod - Novgorod
27 - (Principalty of ?) Polotsk - Polotsk
28 - (Principalty of ?) Smolensk - Smolensk
29 - (Principalty of ?) Rostov-Suzdal - Rostov (could be replaced be either Vladimir or Suzdal)
30 - (Principalty of ?) Kiev - Kiev
31 - (Principalty of ?) Pereiaslav - Pereiaslav
32 - (Principalty of ?) Chernihiv - Ryazan
33 - Volhynia - Brest
34 - Galich - Galich
35 - Estonia ? - ???
36 - Livonia ? - ???
37 - Lithuania - ???
38 - Prussia - ???
39 - Pomerania - Kolberg
40 - Mazovia - Plock
41 - Chrobatia - Cracow
42 - Polania - Posen

The political situation in Russia is kinda unclear for me. I don't know all cities were part of a Kievan 'kingdom' or independant principalties.

About Estonia and Livonia, I don't know if these provinces were called like that, but that's people living here were called Estonians and Livonians, so I think that's the best name I could have found. I don't have settlement names yet, but I'll find them later.

For Andalusian Provinces, see Skeletor's names in the previous post.

Some cities and province borders might be misplaced, but without rivers, moutains, I sometimes have to put the cities kinda randomly ;)

Meneldil

07-28-2005, 21:12

Latest version :

https://img163.imageshack.us/img163/5485/ageofvikingsmap2copie7to.jpg

Approximately 80 provinces. Any input would be nice
Provinces/settlements names will be up tomorrow. Now it's time to get some alcohol and to get drunk ~;)

GoreBag

07-29-2005, 03:51

Aquitaine is still pretty big... I hate to be a jerk about it, but it's surrounded by so many small regions...

I also think there should more, smaller German provinces.

Bar Kochba

07-29-2005, 04:05

cant a bit more of greenland be added this is a game about vikings and althogh they diddn't have a big community there it would still be cool if there was a bit more of it

skeletor

07-29-2005, 08:03

GoreBag

07-29-2005, 15:54

Ofcourse it wold be cool having more Greenland there, but then we must have a huge area in the atlantic outside Britain and spain with only water.

Allso, the province will probably not be used at all. I don't think any player will bother traveling this far to get a very small village.
And the AI won't tutch it at all i guess..

My best bet is to see what Legio's map looks like when it's finished.

-Skel-

Well, it might be a good place to hide...

I think Greenland should be left out of the equation until all the other map-necessities have been finished. If there's still time and room for Greenland, a bonus it could be.

Lief

07-29-2005, 20:17

If I were you guys, I'd cut off the map a little bit North of Britain. This would keep the focus on Europe, and the Norwegian and Swedish AI would be forced to look toward Europe, rather than wasting time up North. IMO, I think that a map showing this (http://www.euratlas.com/big/big0900.htm) area would be best.

GoreBag

07-29-2005, 21:20

That's an excellent map, but I'd like to have more action in the North. It's nice to conquer your neighbours fiirst, I think.

Meneldil

07-29-2005, 21:26

ScionTheWorm

07-29-2005, 23:22

Yes, Euratlas maps are trully great. There are one of my sources for the map I made earlier :)

Vikings factions should not waste a lot of time conquering Scandinavia. I think the north of Scandinavia and Finland should not have a lot of Provinces, and be heavily protected by rebel armies, just as eastern russia (so the Varagians and the Khazars don't spend their time conquering empty lands once they've torn apart the Volga Bulghars and the few other organized tribes living here)

the player will probably be able to do conquer the way vikings did at this time in spite of a detailed north. even though northern british isles and scandinavia is presented, the player can leave them alone and do whatever he want - ravish his way down to sahara without care if he wants. the ai is another story, but giving them an agressive nature and setting up some badass starting dimplomacy may make them kick a lot of ass.

edit:
btw my opinion on greenland is waste of time and space.

GoreBag

07-29-2005, 23:25

Should they necessarily kick more ass than the other factions, though? Not everyone can dig the Northmen.

ScionTheWorm

07-29-2005, 23:26

if not kick ass then at least pain in the ass

GoreBag

07-29-2005, 23:30

Like I said, though; more than other factions? I'm sure they'll be a tough opponent and will have some sweet units, but none of the factions will be pushovers.

(Have you been drinking?)

ScionTheWorm

07-29-2005, 23:40

Like I said, though; more than other factions? I'm sure they'll be a tough opponent and will have some sweet units, but none of the factions will be pushovers.
nah no pushovers. I just feel they should be agressive so we don't have defensive and scared vikings. actually it's not that important to me, so I'll give the torch to someone more competent on history. I'm just defending number of provinces.

(Have you been drinking?)
haha! no... just lost my pills down in the sink, that's all

GoreBag

07-29-2005, 23:58

I think that more provinces are good. I hate big ones..

If I could synthesize a Kool-Aid Man saying "Oh no" for you, I would.

skeletor

07-30-2005, 02:02

LOL

Imo (and i have been drinking :p) the vikings should start with some really misplaced armys to be the pain in the ass they were. Not huge conqering armys, but small bands of them in England, Portugal, Italy and france. This ofcource needs alot of playtesting, but it wold probably be alot of fun.

They wold never in any case be able to hold on any provinces in the south, but as a player you wold be able to loot southeuropean citys (realistic) and if you play one of the other factions you should start with armys facing the obvious borders, and be forced to deal with them in yous unprotected "backdoor (realistic).

The byzantine/muslim/khazar armys were huge organized dreadnoughts, batteling out huge battles compared to the northern kingdoms. And they should, by setting economy/sterting armys/diplomacy/technology/personality be forced to focus on huge battles among eachother, and then being vulnerable for smaller attacks away from their fronts. (if possibele)

This is just my oppinion, but for all offencive factoins of the time, having armys spread way past their borders wold make the campaigns very interesting.

Ofcource, small raidingpartys shouldnt stand a chance against any of the factions main armys. But having vikings all over Europe (specially in britain) and muslims penetrating in Byzantine areas, Franks penetrating Al-Andalus areas, aso. wold be very realistic.

-Skel-

GoreBag

07-30-2005, 05:30

The problem with that is that these raiding parties weren't under the same kind of central leadership that will be present once the player takes over. If these small viking armies were to be Rebels, though, I think that it would make a nice touch.

Meneldil

07-30-2005, 10:52

LOL

Imo (and i have been drinking :p) the vikings should start with some really misplaced armys to be the pain in the ass they were. Not huge conqering armys, but small bands of them in England, Portugal, Italy and france. This ofcource needs alot of playtesting, but it wold probably be alot of fun.

(...)

Ofcource, small raidingpartys shouldnt stand a chance against any of the factions main armys. But having vikings all over Europe (specially in britain) and muslims penetrating in Byzantine areas, Franks penetrating Al-Andalus areas, aso. wold be very realistic.

-Skel-

Well, as far as I know, a raiding army far away from its faction's lands will just try to go retreat to its cities, and won't raid anything. If you want these raiding armies to attack britain/france/whatever, you'll have to give them a settlement in these regions (which isn't un-historical), or to use command scripts such as "attack 'xxxxx' settlement".

Edit : Or as Neon God said, make these armies rebels, and everything will be fine I think :)

Meneldil

07-30-2005, 14:32

https://img258.imageshack.us/img258/1122/ageofvikingsmap2copie2cl.jpg
1 - Aquitaine - Limoges
2 - Gascogne - Bordeaux
3 - Brittany - Rennes
4 - Neustria/Maine/Anjou - Orléans (could be replaced by Le Mans or Angers)
5 - Septimania - Montpellier (could be replaced by Narbonnes)
6 - Provence - Marseilles
7 - Burgundy - Besancon
8 - France - Paris
9 - Flanders - Boulogne
10 - Upper Normandy - Rouen
11 - Lower Normandy - Avranches
12 - Spanish March - Barcelona
13 - Navarre - Pamplona
14 - Castilla - Burgos
15 - Leon - Oviedo (could be remplaced by Leon -the city)
16 - Gallicia - Oporto (could be replaced by Santiago de Compostela)
17 - Toulouse - Toulouse
18 - Badajoz - Badajoz
19 - Toledo - Toledo
20 - Zaragoza - Zaragoza
21 - Valencia - Valencia (I don't know if this place was an independant Emirate or part of Cordoba during the 9th century)
22 - Almeria - Almeria
23 - Granada - Granada
24 - Cordova - Cordova
25 - Sevilla - Sevilla
26 - Novgorod - Novgorod
27 - Polotsk - Polotsk
28 - Smolensk - Smolensk
29 - Rostov-Suzdal - Rostov (could be replaced be either Vladimir or Suzdal)
30 - Kiev - Kiev
31 - Pereiaslav - Pereiaslav
32 - Chernihiv - Ryazan
33 - Volhynia - Brest
34 - Galich - Galich
35 - Estonia ? - ???
36 - Livonia ? - ???
37 - Lithuania - ???
38 - Prussia - ???
39 - Pomerania - Kolberg
40 - Mazovia - Plock
41 - Chrobatia - Cracow
42 - Polania - Posen
43 - Friesland - Utrecht
44 - Ripuaria (could be Upper Lorraine/Lotharingia) - Aix la Chapelle
45 - Moselle (could be Lower Lorraine/Lotharingia) - Strasburg
46 - Liguria - Genoa
47 - Tuscany - Florence (Pisa ?)
48 - States of the Church - Roma
49 - Spoleto - Spoleto
50 - Venetia - Venice
51 - Friuli - Aquileia
52 - Croatia - Sissek
53 - Servia - ???
54 - Lombardy - Milan
55 - Alemannia - Zurich
56 - Franconia - Frankfort
57 - Saxonnia - Bremen
58 - Transalbingia - Hamburg
59 - March of the Billungs - Oldenburg
60 - NordMark - Brandenburg
61 - OstMark - Juterbog
62 - Bohemia - Prague
63 - Bavaria - Salzburg
64 - Moravia - Olmutz
65 - Silesia - Breslau
66 - Carinthia - Fiesach
67 - Cherson - Cherson
68 - Tmoutarakan - Tmoutarakan
69 - Levédia - ??? (land of the Magyars in 840/850)
70 - Etelköz - ??? (land of the Magyars in 840/850)
71 - Pannonia - Ofen
72 - Avarorum Solitudo - Kaliesa (sp?)
73 - Carpathia - Erlau
74 - Transylvania - ???
75 - Banat - Vidin
76 - Dalmatia - Ragusa
77 - Dyrrachium - Dyrrachium
78 - Nicopolis - Nicopolis
79 - Peloponnesus - Corinthes
80 - Hellas - Athens
81 - Thessalonica - Salonica
82 - Macedonia - Andrianople
83 - Thrace - Constantinople

GoreBag

07-30-2005, 22:55

Coming along nicely, but my comments from before still stand.

Meneldil

07-31-2005, 11:27

Yeah, but I found a way to make Aquitaine and German province less huge. I just want to make sure I won't reach the 199 provinces limit.

ScionTheWorm

07-31-2005, 15:25

who is doing the map? meneldil? or just researching?

Meneldil

07-31-2005, 15:26

I'm just researching, mainly because I have nothing to do and like everything related to the normans/vikings age.
I'm not even part of the team ~D

Rodion Romanovich

07-31-2005, 16:21

GoreBag

07-31-2005, 18:22

Well, I disagree with NeonGod. I don't think province sizes and borders matter that much, the cities are the most important point. If there were not other important cities nearby, then the city inside the province of Aquitaine can be large without any problems. I think vanilla R:TW removes one of the more interesting aspects of the game by placing most cities evenly on the map. Great differences in city density, and province sizes, isn't a bad thing IMO. So please base the map on city importance, rather than feeling forced to make some provinces small enough.

I like the last version of the map, France and Spain are great, and HRE seem fine too IMO.

That's just it, though; it's about having more cities. Plus, having huge territories based off one remote city doesn't make any sense; troops can't make it to the corners of the region, and you can't even see what's going on in most of it. In terms of game mechanics, it may not matter much, besides a little devastation in low-fertility areas and the interruption of some trade, but realistically, a region's people would not be inclined to be supported by a city that is simply too far away.

Edit: Oh, is it only 199 provinces? Hrrrmm. >:-(

Stormy

07-31-2005, 20:25

Wow! We also get a piece of Greenland on this map. :2thumbsup: Does this mean we will also have some Inuit rebel units ? ~;)

soibean

08-01-2005, 02:56

is 80 the limit on provinces?

GoreBag

08-01-2005, 04:01

No, the limit's 199, apparently.

Meneldil

08-01-2005, 07:23

Yeah, either 200 or 199 (200 less the 'sea' province)

Rodion Romanovich

08-01-2005, 10:27

That's just it, though; it's about having more cities. Plus, having huge territories based off one remote city doesn't make any sense; troops can't make it to the corners of the region, and you can't even see what's going on in most of it. In terms of game mechanics, it may not matter much, besides a little devastation in low-fertility areas and the interruption of some trade, but realistically, a region's people would not be inclined to be supported by a city that is simply too far away.

Edit: Oh, is it only 199 provinces? Hrrrmm. >:-(

Well, in this period the control over areas wasn't as complete as it is today, so it's good enough IMO. But that doesn't mean I don't want almost as many cities as possible, just that I don't want them to be chosen based on location, but based on importance. I support trying to get as close to 199 cities/provinces as possible.

GoreBag

08-01-2005, 18:26

Well, in this period the control over areas wasn't as complete as it is today, so it's good enough IMO. But that doesn't mean I don't want almost as many cities as possible, just that I don't want them to be chosen based on location, but based on importance. I support trying to get as close to 199 cities/provinces as possible.

Control of the area was pretty tight, though, simply on the grounds that it needed to be. Bandits were common things, and the longer the roads were, the bigger of a problem it was for common folk to make it to the cities. Even if only for trade purposes, big provinces in populated areas really don't make sense.

Rodion Romanovich

08-01-2005, 20:44

I agree, in highly populated areas there will be smaller provinces = more cities also with my system, because there were so many important cities in highly populated areas. Highly populated area = many important cities is true in most cases, so in practise, both our systems would lead to the same map in the end, except perhaps some minor differences in lightly populated areas.

And the fact that so many bandits could move around means the control was often limited, even several centuries later bandits could move around and raid in France, among other places. The important stuff the way the R:TW engine is constructed, is whether the cities you include could have been subject to siege and assault. Smaller cities didn't need to be conquered in the same way, as they'd usually surrender when the larger cities fell, with only few exceptions.

Meneldil

08-01-2005, 20:55

I agree, in highly populated areas there will be smaller provinces = more cities also with my system, because there were so many important cities in highly populated areas. Highly populated area = many important cities is true in most cases, so in practise, both our systems would lead to the same map in the end, except perhaps some minor differences in lightly populated areas.

Yeah well, given that, Italy, Germany and France should have a LOT more of provinces, since they were much more populated than the whole british islands and scandinavian kingdoms. But then, OTOH, giving the welsh only one province would just makes playing him quite boring. The same would goes with almost all factions.

Anyway, I've almost completed the campaign map. The eastern part (eastern russia, asia minor) is quite screwed up, but that the map drawer's fault. Now, I'm kinda lost with the irish principalties, cause I can't find a map with the respective capitals, and with viking lands, aswell as finland.
Any help would be nice :)

skeletor

08-01-2005, 23:04

I'm not so sure giving a faction few citys is that bad, playing as Armenia was one of the most exiting campaigns i playd - Alot of action. France and German could have larger city's, but ofcource, atleast as many as the island.

But spealing of population, don't forget the areas around greece and the middle east. We can't end up with the Abbasid Caliphate with only a few prowinces.

-Skel-

Meneldil

08-02-2005, 10:54

Greece will be enough populated. As for the Middle East, the whole area from Aleppo to Jerusalem was part of the same province (Ascham), but since there was a lot of important cities here, I'm going to make more provinces for settlements like Jerusalem, Aleppo, Antioch and Damascus.

The Stranger

08-02-2005, 12:01

it would be cool if every provinces could have up to four cities.

Rodion Romanovich

08-02-2005, 13:20

Yeah well, given that, Italy, Germany and France should have a LOT more of provinces, since they were much more populated than the whole british islands and scandinavian kingdoms. But then, OTOH, giving the welsh only one province would just makes playing him quite boring. The same would goes with almost all factions.

Anyway, I've almost completed the campaign map. The eastern part (eastern russia, asia minor) is quite screwed up, but that the map drawer's fault. Now, I'm kinda lost with the irish principalties, cause I can't find a map with the respective capitals, and with viking lands, aswell as finland.
Any help would be nice :)

For Ireland, I think the provinces on my province list will do. They've been worked through a lot. Check the province thread.

Rodion Romanovich

08-02-2005, 13:21

Meneldil

08-02-2005, 14:19

Great news, I found a very detailled map from Volga Bulgharia and eastern Russia in 900. I thought this are would be kinda hard to fill with provinces, but now, everything looks fine. Moscow (called Moshka and owned by the Volga Bulghar rebels) will even be in :)

From my late readings, I think the Volga Bulghar should defenitly be in if we get a chance to add more factions with BI*, they owned a very large empire in north eastern russia.

I'm already using your province list for Ireland, but I can't find the settlements on any map. Same thing for Norway, Sweden and Finland.

*It will likely not happen.

Legio, could you answer to my PM ?

Rodion Romanovich

08-02-2005, 15:43

Which one? I've read and replied to all. Perhaps there was some not-sent message that I missed. If you tell me which PM it was I can send a new reply

skeletor

08-02-2005, 17:37

possibly Damascus.

Damascus is a must.

Damascus was one of the most important citys of the Muslim world. A few hundred years pre startdate, it was the capital of the Umayyad Caliphate (rouling all eastern land from spain to India.)

I know Damascus experienced a decline of population and welth from around 870 to 1000ad, but leaving out the oldest continuously inhabited city in the world, wold be like leaving out Constantinople, or Rome.

-Skel-

Meneldil

08-02-2005, 17:40

*goes to edit his post and delete 'possibly'*

Happy ? ~;)

skeletor

08-02-2005, 17:51

Very :-)

Rodion Romanovich

08-06-2005, 18:50

I have very good news! Meneldil has helped me put together a version of the campaign map that can be run without a CTD on his computer. This means that the rest of the campaign map making will go smoothly, and I and Meneldil will probably be able to post some screenshots of a first beta version soon!

ScionTheWorm

08-11-2005, 21:16

okay didn't know where to post this, but anyway just tried out goddamn rtw 6, holy shit that is total ~:cheers:

so it sat me in one of these moods, where I'm now thinking large about our mod. so, some thoughts.

Progress
Got one more skinner, that's great. Could have two factions complete in about four weeks myself, don't know about skel but he's on his way too. So when we have the campaignmap, you other guys (don't know exactly who is doing this) should start putting it together. Should, in case we would use BI, be a lot copy/paste work I guess (getting the factions ok, etc.) I've been a little lazy on the faction icons side, but should get to it soon, at least when we're going to start putting it all together.

And besides, legio has some daring gameplay visions I think, so that should be tried out too. When we got a starting point, we could easily test out various ideas regarding turns, traveldistances etc.

Could you...
- write some more faction descriptions?
- legio tell me exactly what's unique in gameplay with our mod?
- get this magyar unitlist ok. would hate skinning incorrect units, waste of work

Release date
September..... :grin3: :laugh: :laugh:

Team members
Who are they?

ok that's all

Rodion Romanovich

08-12-2005, 15:28

Progress
Got one more skinner, that's great. Could have two factions complete in about four weeks myself, don't know about skel but he's on his way too. So when we have the campaignmap, you other guys (don't know exactly who is doing this) should start putting it together. Should, in case we would use BI, be a lot copy/paste work I guess (getting the factions ok, etc.) I've been a little lazy on the faction icons side, but should get to it soon, at least when we're going to start putting it all together.

And besides, legio has some daring gameplay visions I think, so that should be tried out too. When we got a starting point, we could easily test out various ideas regarding turns, traveldistances etc.

My R:TW is still not behaving as it should ~:confused: . It seems like I personally can't run the home made campaign map. I have no idea why there's so much fuss with it. I've been able to run the mundus magnus map, I installed it for testing, but no other map seems to work. I'll discuss the map again with Meneldil when he reads the PMs I sent to him. Really a pity that it doesn't work as it should. I'm sad to say so, but the campaign map will take even longer, unless Menedil forgot to send me some necessary files or wrong versions of the files or something, and I can get it all working when I get the right files, or something like that. Next time I'll wait a little longer before cheering about the campaign map :embarassed:

Could you...
- write some more faction descriptions?
- legio tell me exactly what's unique in gameplay with our mod?
- get this magyar unitlist ok. would hate skinning incorrect units, waste of work

Re faction descriptions: ok, I can do that. I hope Meneldil doesn't mind if I do that instead of the map_heights.tga. If he does, I'll do map_heights before I can do much more about faction descriptions. But don't worry, they'll come...

Re gameplay:
- the recruitment system: militia have 0 turns training, low recruitment cost but high upkeep, meaning they're supposed to be called in for shorter periods, then dismissed. Higher quality troops are very expensive both in training and upkeep, meaning there'll be a small core army (tagmata/royal army/hird etc.) that needs support from temporarily recruited militia in order to perform well in battle. The cost changes will mean armies consist mostly of militia but the core army will still be important. It also means it's hard to destroy an opponent because he can quickly strengthen his armies when needed with the fast militia recruitment.
- rebels: rebels will be stronger and therefore not as annoying as vanilla R:TW rebels. The slower battle speed will also make them harder to deal with.
- slower battle speed: battles last longer and more clever tactics are needed than the vanilla R:TW hit-and-run and take-by-surprise tactics. Here, clever traps will win the battles. This will also make the battles harder vs AI, because you can't as easily isolate and rout units. Morale of most troops will be higher, and defense stats will be higher. Cavalry is down-powered compared to the infantry compared to R:TW in order to make it more realistic. The simplest archers are also powered down a little, whereas javelins are stronger. Javelinmen and others will however often have less ammo than in vanilla R:TW.
- no more mini-navies: higher morale will lead to fewer surviving mini-navies that need to be hunted down after battles.
- economy: the economy will be hard to keep running if you constantly have the militia recruited. In order to get enough money for war you need to stick with core army only in peace-time, and recruit militia only when necessary. A nation crippled by too much war will have problems surviving economically. Once a nation has grown large enough it will of course be able to maintain a larger army, but the stronger rebels will make it hard to govern a too large empire.
- strong rebels at start: all the factions that can't be playable will be represented by very strong rebels from start in the areas in question. Mostly falling empires are represented as rebels instead of factions. The strong rebels means rebel cities aren't easy grabs like in R:TW, meaning it's sometimes even better to attack a playable faction instead. For example Mercia, Northumbria, Britanny, Great Moravia, Poland and a few other factions are represented by very strong rebels.
- zone of recruit: some units can only be recruited in certain areas.
- incompatible troops buildings: if possible, the implementation of this will make it necessary to tear down enemy troops buildings and build new own ones before troops can be recruited in newly conquered territory. This simulates how a new province needs to be held for a while before any loyal troops can be recruited in it.
- mercenaries: some factions will benefit a lot more, than any faction in vanilla R:TW does, from recruiting specialist mercenaries.
- smaller percentual stats differences between units: means militia isn't overrun like peasants in vanilla R:TW. It will make the battles more realistic, and the player won't be unbeatable as soon as he has reached the highest technology level.

Release date
September..... :grin3: :laugh: :laugh:

Hehe, we'll see, we'll see... I think it'll probably take longer than that, but it's not entirely impossible...

Team members
Who are they?

Copy+paste from the Introduction thread:
- LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix - project leader/campaign map maker/skinner/unit editor
- Captain-Tiguris - project leader/skinner/unit editor
- The Apostate - chief of research
- skeletor - skinner/unit editor
- ScionTheWorm - skinner/unit editor
- King Ragnar - researcher/skinner
- Emperor Umeu 1 - coding/unit balancing/soon city editor
- dark_shadow89 - coding/skinner/unit editor (not confirmed - PM me to confirm)
- Pocket_Tanks - txt editor/skinner (not confirmed - PM me to confirm)
- Meneldil - map editing/text editing/buildings editing/units editing
- QuickDagger - skinner

These haven't shown up in a long time, and might therefore have quit the mod without telling me or someone else:
- Captain-Tiguris - project leader/skinner/unit editor
- The Apostate - chief of research
- dark_shadow89 - coding/skinner/unit editor (not confirmed - PM me to confirm)
- Pocket_Tanks - txt editor/skinner (not confirmed - PM me to confirm)

The others have shown up regularly though.

ScionTheWorm

08-12-2005, 19:20

tried to make an intro music piece for the mod. it's meant to give a somewhat dark age feeling, and isn't very finished either (should be synchronized with some intro story thing). but if you wan't, tell me what you think. Aint quite happy with the ending hehe

Never tried rapidshare before, but here it is. May be F.. up
http://rapidshare.de/files/3915515/aof_intro.mp3.html

I was thinking that this could appear:

1. Age Of Vikings and fanatics Title

2. Some short story/info (i see a quote; "Cattle die, friends die, even you die : but I know one that never die, the judgement over dead men")

3. Zooming out of a bird checking out a corpse from a battlefield... Lying others there. Camera going up.... what's there..? A friggin massive army charged by another from the other side of these corpses

4. Zooming out... clash! Closeups of blood fire and death.

5... unsure

6. Closing: not text but a dark closing, no cheering I think...

I think I could make it. Yes I liked the mtw... hope I didn't get too carried away

edit:
I know it's not quite there, but would make it more complete if you like it

Rodion Romanovich

08-12-2005, 20:33

Really cool! Did you cut together different pieces or did you do it from scratch, composing and everything? That could be the intro movie and menu movie music. If you know any good program for cutting large mp3:s or anything for composing (I had one such program for a Mac once, but haven't found any for PC yet, despite much searching) and synthesizing the audio and converting it to mp3, I could upload some of my own ideas too.

And yeah, the intro movie idea sounds cool too.

I must admit I've also done some planning of my own. I had in mind an army walking through terrain, with slow and calm, but still dark, music. Then an enemy army is spotted on a hill, through the trees of a small forest the army marches through. The music gets more violent, and the army starts to march quicker and quicker towards the army, to attack.

While the army is marching, the music gets more dramatic, and we see a shot of the lower parts of the legs of some unknown horses gallopping through a forest. Then the view switches between the marching army and the horses, with shorter and shorter shots of each of them. The two armies I mentioned first then meet and clash together, still switching back and forth between the horses and the two armies, with shorter and shorter shots. Every time the view is switched to the horses, the camera moves upwards, showing more and more of the horses, until finally, we switch back to the main battle, and how the horses ride straight into the battle, and rout the army we first saw. Then there'd be zoomings of meleé ending in the army routing and the ground being littered with corpses and a few remaining troops running away. The fighting should be cut shorter than a real battle, just for a few seconds, then the music would dramatically mark the end of the battle by showing several still pictures of the dead on the ground, then go black.

Perhaps Vikings vs French would be a good faction choice for the fight, or perhaps it should be Saxons vs Danes, with the French and Danes, respectively, being the winners. Any thoughts?

ScionTheWorm

08-12-2005, 20:41

thanks! actually I composed everything from scratch, I have an interrest for making music (mostly metal). don't know what you mean by cutting mp3, here I did it note by note. guess Cool edit would do the trick though. I think we should do that, composing, for the modmusic, doesn't have to be a lot of work.. just to give it it's own feeling.

made another one, when defeat in battle. Maybe a little over the top for our mod. should be lower volume I think

http://rapidshare.de/files/3918623/defeat.mp3.html

Rodion Romanovich

08-12-2005, 20:43

Ok, which program do you compose in? I'd love to give it a try on my own (I've composed by hand with the help of a piano to find the notes, but it's a lot harder and can't exactly give you an appropriate .mp3 file...)

ScionTheWorm

08-12-2005, 20:46

cakewalk sonar 3 + some orchestra... what is it.. just says orcehstral. I guess you can use a lot of better things that I've got, but I hightly recommend sonar 3.

I've tried out a package before called "voices of the acopolypse"... choir that you can program to say what you wan't, whith english or latin language ~:cool:

edit:
edirol is it name.

Rodion Romanovich

08-12-2005, 20:47

Wow, that one was impressive too! However I think a defeat melody should have darker tones. It's melancholic enough, but too bright tones IMO.

If I find a good audio creator I'll try to arrange some melodies I know that would make really good defeat music. Sarabande by Handel, or Funeral March by Frederic Chopin etc. etc. I have plenty of ideas, hopefully I'll be able to make something out of them...

Rodion Romanovich

08-12-2005, 20:48

I've tried out a package before called "voices of the acopolypse"... choir that you can program to say what you wan't, whith english or latin language ~:cool:

Hehe, nice ~D ~:cheers:

ScionTheWorm

08-12-2005, 21:30

oh sorry I actually didn't see that you said you were going to make for the defeat. I'll post it anyway, could be used somewhere else. I don't think it's enough room for music in rtw for us!! but we should really agree on some criterias and "style", so it's cosistent in the mod. everybody could make their peice, if the others like it and it's good.

Ok I'll rather try making some "into battlemode" music, I can't get this defeat thing right...

ScionTheWorm

08-12-2005, 21:35

wow you're on an editing spree...

Really cool! Did you cut together different pieces or did you do it from scratch, composing and everything? That could be the intro movie and menu movie music. If you know any good program for cutting large mp3:s or anything for composing (I had one such program for a Mac once, but haven't found any for PC yet, despite much searching) and synthesizing the audio and converting it to mp3, I could upload some of my own ideas too.

And yeah, the intro movie idea sounds cool too.

I must admit I've also done some planning of my own. I had in mind an army walking through terrain, with slow and calm, but still dark, music. Then an enemy army is spotted on a hill, through the trees of a small forest the army marches through. The music gets more violent, and the army starts to march quicker and quicker towards the army, to attack.

While the army is marching, the music gets more dramatic, and we see a shot of the lower parts of the legs of some unknown horses gallopping through a forest. Then the view switches between the marching army and the horses, with shorter and shorter shots of each of them. The two armies I mentioned first then meet and clash together, still switching back and forth between the horses and the two armies, with shorter and shorter shots. Every time the view is switched to the horses, the camera moves upwards, showing more and more of the horses, until finally, we switch back to the main battle, and how the horses ride straight into the battle, and rout the army we first saw. Then there'd be zoomings of meleé ending in the army routing and the ground being littered with corpses and a few remaining troops running away. The fighting should be cut shorter than a real battle, just for a few seconds, then the music would dramatically mark the end of the battle by showing several still pictures of the dead on the ground, then go black.

Perhaps Vikings vs French would be a good faction choice for the fight, or perhaps it should be Saxons vs Danes, with the French and Danes, respectively, being the winners. Any thoughts?
Viking vs french sounds excellent. norse vs christianity... would like to see a cross friggin bloody at the end there, some grim scene. it should be, quote neongod, fucking metal. In-game video could work, though I would like to filter the video some, and add some own scenes of closeups (grass, corpses etc).

So can I have the intro music and the "going to battle" music? ~D

Rodion Romanovich

08-12-2005, 21:48

wow you're on an editing spree...

Viking vs french sounds excellent. norse vs christianity... would like to see a cross friggin bloody at the end there, some grim scene. it should be, quote neongod, fucking metal. In-game video could work, though I would like to filter the video some, and add some own scenes of closeups (grass, corpses etc).

So can I have the intro music and the "going to battle" music? ~D

Hm, just so that we speak of the same music, here's what I call them:
- Intro music - for the menu animation. ONLY ONE.
- Deploy music - during deployment and before you've marched any troops. SEVERAL PIECES.
- Marching music - after you've moved your first unit up till the actual fighting starts (artillery doesn't count). SEVERAL PIECES.
- Battle music - after first fighting starts (artillery doesn't count). SEVERAL PIECES.
- Victory music - after victorious battlev. ONLY ONE.
- Defeat music - after unresolved or lost battle. ONLY ONE.

Have I forgotten any?

Anyway, if we stick to these names when we discuss we'll know what we mean. I don't know what you mean by intro and going to battle, please specify. Personally I'd really much like to make the marching music, but for marching music, deploy music and battle music there's AFAIK room for several alternative music files so we could theoretically both do all of them.

GoreBag

08-12-2005, 22:27

Have I forgotten any?

I'd say a few pieces for the campaign map (I really liked that Eastern flute one RTW had). If these could change based on the culture, that'd be ever better.

I listened to both mp3s...and the first one just makes me think Scion listens to a lot of Nile. ~D It's really quite good, though; I think it would work pretty well with the mod.

I think the "defeat" tune might be better suited to play after a faction had just been eliminated.

quote neongod, fucking metal

Damn straight.

ScionTheWorm

08-12-2005, 22:45

GoreBag

08-12-2005, 23:14

It sounds more like tension music to me..the timpanis are more ominous than dynamic, and the strings are very erratic. I enjoyed the piece, though; you're pretty good at this electronic stuff.

ScionTheWorm

08-13-2005, 00:32

It sounds more like tension music to me..the timpanis are more ominous than dynamic, and the strings are very erratic. I enjoyed the piece, though; you're pretty good at this electronic stuff.

oh that's a lot of strange words... (erratic?)
I see what you mean, and it kicked more in the music program than on mp3, though after my taste that's battlemusic. I wouldn't want to overdramatize everything with passionate and overdramatic music - even though it would be really cool in some large important battles, I don't want this drumpiece starting each time I move someone.... but if we could make and use a lot of different musicpieces, it would work. I don't know if there's a limit on this, is it?

About the campaign music, I think it should be very... laidback... I want to do a guitar piece for that, no culturespecific.. could turn out as crap though

GoreBag

08-13-2005, 01:47

Yeah, erratic...I mean that they're all over the place.

Well, I wouldn't want to over-dramatize either, but something more up-tempo would be more appropriate for a bunch of manly men decapitating one another. Seriously, though, listening to this piece and thinking of battle makes me imagine men taking up positions and nocking arrows, rather than the mêlée of battle.

I'm thinking something as robust and manly, but with less strings and more...boom. Warhorns and stuff like that.

Argh, I'm having a tough time describing my thoughts on it.

ScionTheWorm

08-13-2005, 06:01

k I hear now it's tension music, but I don't know exactly what you mean by the manly thing. I think it's interresting, do you se a melody or just some proud national trumpets or purely drums? I would like that boom, I can see it happen.

Rodion Romanovich

08-13-2005, 10:31

Hm, how did you use Cakewalk sonar? I got really confused just by looking at the demo after opening it. I preferred the interface of the demo of the program called Sibelius, but I just found out it costs like $1000!!! I think it's better if you handle all the music, Scion, in case you don't mind?

Rodion Romanovich

08-13-2005, 10:36

this would be battle music when charging, and I'm quite happy with it (for now). if longer it could be variations of the parts included...

http://rapidshare.de/files/3921524/battle01.mp3.html

yeah nile.... :barrel:

Wow, that one was great! I think it's good battle music, I'm of the opinion that the battle music should be kind of "psychadelic" and fast like that, whereas the marching music should IMO be as heavy or heavier, but much heavy in a slower way - with horns and heavy drums, and huge chords all the time rather than single tones etc., and it should have a rythm, but the rythm should be slow.

Rodion Romanovich

08-13-2005, 15:26

I made this one in a demo version where you couldn't save or convert to wav/mp3, but where you could take screenshots :). Don't know if it's good for anything and if anyone has time/is in the mood to enter these tunes into a synthesizer (I couldn't personally find any free synthesizer to use), but I think it was a quite cool theme. I'm only using horns and different drum types, I think it's good as marching or battle music.

https://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y191/LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix/music1_version2.gif

ScionTheWorm

08-13-2005, 16:33

I might take a look at it, it will be a lot of boring work (noteplacing..), but I'm curious about how it sounds... may have a surprise for you later.

I think sonar 3 is the userfirendly littlesister of cubase, and you'll need a sampleset or something to get started (me: some orchestra set with lot of sounds). I'm just placing the notes, though I don't think you're able to save with the demo.

Here's another battletune. Think charging. I'm not sure how well it turned out, even played some acoustic guitars, but anyway, it's mainly an up tempo tampani piece.

http://rapidshare.de/files/3942659/battle02.mp3.html

Rodion Romanovich

08-13-2005, 16:43

ScionTheWorm

08-13-2005, 16:45

aaah glad we agree! cheers ~D ~:cheers:

Ranika

08-13-2005, 16:59

Rodion Romanovich

08-13-2005, 20:09

I might take a look at it, it will be a lot of boring work (noteplacing..), but I'm curious about how it sounds... may have a surprise for you later.

Trust me it's worth it! :). It would have been even better if I had been able to save and polish it some more, but it's IMO quite good already in it's current rough shape :).

I think sonar 3 is the userfirendly littlesister of cubase, and you'll need a sampleset or something to get started (me: some orchestra set with lot of sounds). I'm just placing the notes, though I don't think you're able to save with the demo.

So is sonar a program you buy? And how much does it cost? If it's free, do you have a link for downloading? It might be worth buying if it costs less than 50-100$, but if it's more expensive than that I'm not sure, I might not want to compose much else than for this mod in the nearest future.

ScionTheWorm

08-13-2005, 20:21

it's quite expensive, and I don't know about any other programs, haven't used that many for this kind of music.

is it really tampani instruments I'm gonna use for these notes?

ps new melody

Rodion Romanovich

08-13-2005, 20:33

is it really tampani instruments I'm gonna use for these notes?

Yes, I think it's timpani. If not, I can tell you if it sounded different than for me if/when you have converted the tunes to an mp3.

Rodion Romanovich

08-13-2005, 20:38

First in-game shot of campaign map: https://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y191/LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix/campaign_map_preview1.jpg
The arrow points to the perfect location for my viking invasion fleets to disembark ~D

Known issues:
- provinces, cities, rivers, heights etc. aren't ready yet, so this shot is barely more than a proof that I finally managed to open R:TW with the map without a CTD ~;)
- the coastlines look bad in some locations - this is something that I know how to repair - it requires going through the map_heights pixel by pixel and fixing it, but it's easier to do that after I've completed the entire map_heights file.
- purple stains - accidentally chosen illegal RGB values for some pixels in map_ground_types. Solution to this problem is known, and this will be fixed too.
- mini map - not all of the map is displayed on the minimap. Not yet sure how this can be solved, if at all. In any case it doesn't matter much...

ScionTheWorm

08-13-2005, 20:44

niiiice!! let's see some scandinavia too please??

Lief

08-13-2005, 22:23

I think the problem with the mini-map is that the full map doesn't scale properly into the space allowed. Thus, some has to be cut off. You could always fix it by cutting off some of the Northern reaches of the map.

Meneldil

08-14-2005, 07:54

I know why the minimap isn't working. It will be solved soon hopefully

Rodion Romanovich

08-14-2005, 18:45

niiiice!! let's see some scandinavia too please??

I can show southern Norway and Sweden in a few days ~:) . But the first previews you'll see won't be the final versions, it's really hard to get the mountains and hills to look good etc. I'm quite happy with the current version of the western half of North Africa, and Spain is almost ok (but probably needs some higher terrain in middle Portgual). The rest is still very far from complete. I've however fixed the most important landmarks such as mountain chains in slightly more than half the map_heights file, so a preview that isn't completely wrong will probably be uploaded soon.

Rodion Romanovich

08-14-2005, 19:49

OK, some more early previews to keep you all happy :)

The edge of the world or Ultima Thule?
https://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y191/LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix/preview8.jpg

Baltic region - where Rus, Swedish and finnish rebels will compete for land...
https://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y191/LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix/preview6.jpg

View centered around Kaupang, from which many fleets will set sail to Britain...
https://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y191/LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix/preview5.jpg

ScionTheWorm

08-14-2005, 20:52

wow looks awesome!! How many provinces will norway/sweden have? Is the faction sweden sveariket (located east I think)?

edit:
I think inner Oslo fjord should be narrower, and maybe the hardanger fjord narrower? And some more woods in east norway.

also, if not too small, some really small islands on the west coast of norway. just for eyecandy.

Rodion Romanovich

08-14-2005, 21:20

wow looks awesome!! 1. How many provinces will norway/sweden have? 2. Is the faction sweden sveariket (located east I think)?

edit:
3. I think inner Oslo fjord should be narrower, 4. and maybe the hardanger fjord narrower? 5. And some more woods in east norway.

6. also, if not too small, some really small islands on the west coast of norway. just for eyecandy.

1. probably around 10-15 in total, the province thread has approximately the right amount, but the final province list may differ slightly from the one in that thread.

2. no factions have been placed yet, we're still using SPQR, if that's what you meant... Or if this is what you meant: the Swedish faction will be the Svea rike, representing the Sviar tribes/kingdom/kingdoms mostly, while the gotar territories will probably be mostly rebels.

3 & 4. unfortunately not possible... An alternative way is to make the fiords rivers, but that would remove the unique fiord look from the Norwegian landscape

5. parts of eastern Norway need more forest, yes, will do that. I am a little careful with forests though, compared to the vanilla R:TW map, because the R:TW forests are a little to thick on the campaign map. You still get the forest feeling on the strategy map by this density, and if it works better on the battle map I think it's a better way of doing it. Anyway, this can easily be fixed when everything else has been completed, and I'll probably postpone the forest editing until later. Some battle map tests should probably be run before I can determine whether my forest density is good or if I should be a little braver... Anyway, eastern Norway will get more forest in any case.

6. ok, I'll look at some maps to see where to put them. They were too small to be visible on the satellite image I used, but it might be good eyecandy to add them. I'm also thinking about adding one one-tile island outside where Birka will be, to simulate the Stockholm atoll, but haven't decided about that yet.

ScionTheWorm

08-14-2005, 22:58

1. probably around 10-15 in total, the province thread has approximately the right amount, but the final province list may differ slightly from the one in that thread.

Okay nice.. many ~D

2. no factions have been placed yet, we're still using SPQR, if that's what you meant... Or if this is what you meant: the Swedish faction will be the Svea rike, representing the Sviar tribes/kingdom/kingdoms mostly, while the gotar territories will probably be mostly rebels.

I meant the last one

3 & 4. unfortunately not possible... An alternative way is to make the fiords rivers, but that would remove the unique fiord look from the Norwegian landscape

Okay but I would just like southern norway to be a little bit broader, that is on the right of the shore... so that the gap between sweden and norway became a little smaller. just to give it a more round feeling... might be geographically wrong though *looking at another map* oh I am, never mind

5. parts of eastern Norway need more forest, yes, will do that. I am a little careful with forests though, compared to the vanilla R:TW map, because the R:TW forests are a little to thick on the campaign map. You still get the forest feeling on the strategy map by this density, and if it works better on the battle map I think it's a better way of doing it. Anyway, this can easily be fixed when everything else has been completed, and I'll probably postpone the forest editing until later. Some battle map tests should probably be run before I can determine whether my forest density is good or if I should be a little braver... Anyway, eastern Norway will get more forest in any case.

I think northeast of the oslo area should have some more, but it has a backside yes... and if it's not crossable it's hell too, and I hate fighting in forests... but when looking at campaign map it would be appropriate

6. ok, I'll look at some maps to see where to put them. They were too small to be visible on the satellite image I used, but it might be good eyecandy to add them. I'm also thinking about adding one one-tile island outside where Birka will be, to simulate the Stockholm atoll, but haven't decided about that yet.
I think that would look nice ~:)

Rodion Romanovich

08-15-2005, 17:11

A better map_heights.tga is now ready. However I ran into a new problem:

https://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y191/LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix/preview_greece.jpg

As you can see on this picture, the shores now have the opposite problem - instead of protruding outside the shore line, the squares are too far in the other direction. I think I have the solution to the problem:

Assume there's a grid a pixels like this (x means land, O means water):

XXX
0XX
00X
00X

In such a grid, the x:s in bold style needs to have a lighter color than 1,1,1, in order to avoid that. Only the x:s in italic style should have the color 1,1,1. There are still some traces of protruding squares when I fix this, but it seems impossible to do any better than that, judging from the R:TW vanilla map_heights file.

Do you want the current version of map_heights right away, Meneldil, or should I fix this problem before I email it to you?

I'll probably continue with the map_climates map now, and then edit some things on map_ground types. I assume adding an island or two but apart from that keep shore lines as they are (only changing pixel color values on some of them) won't screw up your work on map_regions and features much? I'll also add some forest in some locations.

Meneldil

08-15-2005, 17:37

Well, send the map, I might have an idea about how to fix that.

I'm currently running into prblm while trying to get the water rivers working. I dunno what's happening, since I already drawn this kind of river a few times.

Rodion Romanovich

08-15-2005, 18:09

Ok, I sent it now. I accidentally deleted your PM where your email address was, but I remembered the beginning of the address. The end was .com, right? If so, I sent it to the right place, otherwise... :embarassed: :stwshame:

Anyway, will start work on map_climates now.

Edit: Is your way of fixing the shores different than mine? If it isn't, I could take care of it if you want. If it is, please send the fixed map_heights to me as soon as you're ready. It's best if you do these edits in the .psd file, in the rivers layer, rather than in the exported tga, because it's easier to fix the remaining problems, and the eye-candy, if I still work from the psd file.

Edit: btw do you know if the cmdline for battle map editor is -enable_editor? Using it is probably the fastest way of previewing the battlefields.

Jarlabanke

08-15-2005, 18:13

Rodion Romanovich

08-15-2005, 18:17

Stockholm is too small to be on that map especially as there are loads of islands in the area that are much larger.
Other than that I must say that Åland is too large and Sweden as a whole lacks wood, especially the Småland area which also should be perhaps be a bit more hilly, though none of the screens show it in detail.

- The city of Stockholm won't be included, it was founded in the 13th century or possibly even later (official 750 years festival only a few years ago). I was talking about adding one one-tile island to simulate the atoll outside modern Stockholm. The only cities in that region, I think, will be Birka and Uppsala.
- Yes, Småland needs more forests. But see above discussion about forests, we'll stick to less than vanilla R:TW in most areas. But some areas, like Småland and eastern Norway, will get more despite that policy.
- Småland is very hilly ATM, but will probably see more hills. Many areas will be remade in detail, this is just the first, rough alpha 0.0.1 version of the map.
- Åland is hard to make any smaller, doesn't work well in-game. Åland is really a group of many small islands, but this is the best abstraction I could think of - I tried using many smaller islands but it didn't look right. Gotland and Öland are also increased in size somewhat compared to reality, I must admit.

Meneldil

08-15-2005, 18:39

Here's a first sample of the new rivers :

https://img310.imageshack.us/img310/7389/ex44ds.jpg

https://img310.imageshack.us/img310/8042/ex54dd.jpg

Jarlabanke

08-15-2005, 21:23

I used stockholm because I didn't think you'd understand me if I used the correct name for the island where the old town is; Stadsholmen.I know when the city was, founded, I live <20 mins from it.
Anyhow my point is that hardly any of the islands in Mälaren or in Roslagen are large enough to be visible on the map, even less so if you were to look at a map
on how the area looked back then.

Jarlabanke

08-15-2005, 21:30

For some reason the reply above seems a bit screwed. What I meant to say was that I'm very aware of when and how Stockholm was founded, I used the name Stockholm because I didn't think you'd know the actual name of the island on which the old town is located; Stadsholmen.
hte point is that next to none of islands in Mälaren or Roslagen are big enough to by themselves be visble on that map, even more so keeping in mind that they
were significantly smaller back then.

Rodion Romanovich

08-16-2005, 08:43

Oh, now I understand what you mean - you were talking about the island INSIDE Mälaren! Well, I agree it's too small, that's why I removed it. I was considering adding one one-tile island outside Mälaren to simulate the atoll outside Mälaren. What do you think of that idea?

Rodion Romanovich

08-16-2005, 08:47

Here's a first sample of the new rivers :

https://img310.imageshack.us/img310/7389/ex44ds.jpg

https://img310.imageshack.us/img310/8042/ex54dd.jpg

Cool! Only one question - can an army stand in the middle of the river (at a crossing), and meet another army there - how does that look on the battle map? Will they fight in water, or will it be ok? And can you take advantage of the crossing, being narrow like normal crossings?

Actually I think it doesn't matter if such rivers aren't possible to cross with land armies only, in fact those really wide rivers perhaps shouldn't be possible to cross without ships. Especially if crossing on foot would lead to any problems. What do you think?

Meneldil

08-16-2005, 08:57

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=868362&postcount=5

Here you can find a quick sample of how battles work.

Rodion Romanovich

08-16-2005, 11:09

Ok, sounds good.

I think you should make the Seine a little shorter though (so that it's sea-method river to Paris, then standard river), and make the last bit a standard river. Would be cool to have rivers where the upper part is made by the sea method and the lower part has the traditional crossings - the river crossings are nice and shouldn't be removed too much. That would work very, very well IMO:

- high upstreams, you can only cross at certain locations, and can't send in ships
- more downstram, you can only cross at certain location (just like upstreams), but also send in ships to cross the river anywhere you want.

As I see it, as long as the landbridges far downstream in the rivers are as few, or perhaps fewer than, the crossings further upstreams, it's great. However, if there are too many landbridges far downstreams, it doesn't make sense because it shouldn't be easier to cross where the river is wider, than it is where it's smaller.

In fact, my opinion now is that this method with sea-method rivers should be implemented far downstream in ALL larger rivers on the map, and all smaller rivers and upstreams parts of larger rivers should be made using the standard rivers.

What do you think? Or is what I suggested in this post what you initially had in mind?

Edit: I saw now that you had zoomed in on the screenshot. The length of the Seine is fine, I didn't see it correctly first time. ~:cheers:

Meneldil

08-16-2005, 11:15

What you suggested is what I had in mind ~:cheers:

But the Seine still needs some fixing, it should go a bit further south (just north of Paris), and ending with feature rivers.

I've almost added all French provinces, but I get some random ctd will scrolling on the map. Quite annoying, I already had this bug, and did not find how to solve it.

Rodion Romanovich

08-17-2005, 09:46

Some findings about climates:
- Heat 2-4 means no snow in winter, heat 1 means snow in winter.
- It is possible and quite easy to add own climates, but there are enough climates already so it isn't necessary.
- I think I will draw the snow border in wintertime approximately in northern Denmark, further south in eastern Europe.

Meneldil

08-17-2005, 10:16

- Should Constantinople's province really be called Thrace? I suggest name changed to Constantinople, and call province north of that Thrace. I can find a city for that province, I know there is one there on a historical map I have of the area.

The province of Constantinople was called Theme of Thrace, so I think it's alright

Rodion Romanovich

08-17-2005, 11:10

The province of Constantinople was called Theme of Thrace, so I think it's alright

Ok.

I finally managed to solve the coastline problems. You might need this knowledge too when making sea rivers:

- For coastlines pieces vertical or horizontal, use one pixel adjacent to the shore line with RGB 1,1,1.
- For coastlines facing down-left or up-right, whenever two pieces of horizontal and/or vertical lines meet, there'll be a pixel which doesn't face the sea directly, where only the CORNER of the pixel will touch the sea. That pixel should for down-left and up-right facing coasts NOT be colored in 1,1,1, but with any lighter color.
- For coastlines facing up-left or down-right, those pixels that only touch with it's corner SHOULD be colored in 1,1,1 too.

This removes all protruding edges all over the map.

Now I'll fix map_heights so these things are implemented all over the map. I'm about one third ready with it.

ScionTheWorm

08-17-2005, 13:27

Ok not that this has anything to do with anything, but I tried to make another logo-text for our mod. I will also if you like make a simpler "logo". Then I will post it in different styles and format, so that you can use it for signatures, or whereever else it should be needed.

https://img271.imageshack.us/img271/8058/aoflogos0ms.th.png (https://img271.imageshack.us/my.php?image=aoflogos0ms.png)
1.) My favourite
2.) Centered
3.) Old style

opinions welcomed. not the best font or..? the old one maybe?

Rodion Romanovich

08-17-2005, 17:55

no. 3 looks good on both black and white backgrounds, the other two look good on white but a little hard to see on the black background. Given that, I think 3 is the best one to use.

GoreBag

08-17-2005, 19:01

I agree with Legio's reasoning about number 3. However..

I think I will draw the snow border in wintertime approximately in northern Denmark, further south in eastern Europe.

Are you suggesting that it doesn't snow in Germany or France?

Narayanese

08-17-2005, 19:09

Are you suggesting that it doesn't snow in Germany or France?
Does it, more then only a little? ~;) Where I live there is snow there is snow from november to april :sad: , i.e. consistent with the half year winter half year summer in RTW.

GoreBag

08-17-2005, 19:23

Does it, more then only a little? ~;) Where I live there is snow there is snow from november to april :sad: , i.e. consistent with the half year winter half year summer in RTW.

Same here, but I'm too grim to complain about snow.

Seriously, though, it can't be assumed that the winter season must last six months of the year in order to have snow on the campaign map. Won't the seasons be shortened anyway? The way it currently stands with the "four turns per year" script, there are four seasons, and only one of them is winter (the AI counts the aging for family members by winters, not actual years). This would mean that a winter with four turns per year would yield three months of snow.

Rodion Romanovich

08-17-2005, 20:14

I agree with Legio's reasoning about number 3. However..

Are you suggesting that it doesn't snow in Germany or France?

There won't be snow everywhere in Germany and France. I'm thinking about makes some spots with snow and some without it. I'll see how it works. If it doesn't work, I'll draw a sharp border like in vanilla R:TW, but it'll then have to go through perhaps the middle of France and two thirds of Germany.

Meneldil

08-17-2005, 22:11

A few pics :

Scotland :
https://img180.imageshack.us/img180/6494/00061wk.jpg

Dál Riata (Dalriada), Lodainn (Lothain), Srath Chluaidh (Strathclyde), Fortriu and Cúige Uladh (Ulster)

Asia Minor :
https://img295.imageshack.us/img295/9024/00078th.jpg

Northern France :
https://img295.imageshack.us/img295/139/00081pq.jpg

Will post screenshots from Northern France and the Roman Empire tomorrow

Rodion Romanovich

08-18-2005, 08:54

Great! Now it's starting to resemble a real map!

Rodion Romanovich

08-18-2005, 10:57

Anyone know where to find info about which climate is used in the Italian lowland custom map? I want to know that for reference when making the climates map. I know there's a file somewhere describing coordinates for all custom maps - if I can get that I can compare with the vanilla climates map and find the needed info. The problem is, now I can't find the custom battles txt file.

Meneldil

08-20-2005, 12:19

Middle East :

https://img396.imageshack.us/img396/1637/000100xg.jpg

https://img396.imageshack.us/img396/6888/000118lv.jpg

Baltic lands :

https://img396.imageshack.us/img396/919/000123un.jpg

I'm using common rivers, because it's easier when creating provinces. I'll replace them later

Rodion Romanovich

08-20-2005, 12:23

Amazing! Now I'll have to speed up the construction and testing of the landscape too! I saw your France looks different than mine - did you remove some fertile tiles on your version? Anyway that's great, I was going to do that too. I'll do more battle map testing and experiment more with climates. I'm mostly going to use the existing climates but perhaps add one or two more.

Meneldil

08-20-2005, 12:27

I don't think I changed anything in France, it's just that fertility looks different when farms aren't built.

Rodion Romanovich

08-20-2005, 13:02

Ok, no problem, I'll take care of that like I said then. Good work so far!

Jarlabanke

08-20-2005, 14:47

Seeburg should perhaps be renamed seeing how it's a german name and though I'm not sure when it fell into german hands the same thing might be the case for Oldenburg which I belive was called Starograd by the Slavs living in the area. Could also be that I'm mixing one Oldenburg with another, seeing how names like that tend to be quite usual.

Meneldil

08-20-2005, 15:16

Jabarlanke, I sent you a private message.

I knew Seeburg wasn't really accurate, but I couldn't find a better (slav or baltic) name

The game now CTDs in a random place in the middle east (between Armenia and Damas). I have no clue about what is happening here ~:confused:

Rodion Romanovich

08-20-2005, 15:24

It might be that the region lacks fertile tiles. Every province needs at least one fertile tile. You can edit the map_ground_types temporarily. If that solved the problem, let's both make a note that that region needs a fertile tile so I can add it on my map_ground_types when I've gotten further with the editing and testing.

Meneldil

08-20-2005, 22:25

Problem solved, no more CTD. I don't know what happened.

Meneldil

08-22-2005, 16:39

The Frankish Empire :

https://img381.imageshack.us/img381/854/00052sx.jpg

Rodion Romanovich

08-22-2005, 17:47

Sweet!

I'll post a preview of climate effects soon, i.e. a winter map showing where the snow will be and where it won't be.

Csatadi

09-06-2005, 13:20

Do the two dark green land represents the Magyars?

Meneldil

09-06-2005, 13:52

Yes, that's Etelköz and -I think- Levedia.

Now, you might say that well, Etelkoz and Levedia aren't here, but there are different theories about the homeland of the Magyars, and I chose one that fit with our map.

Csatadi

09-06-2005, 21:21

I see two provinces. The eastern one is Levedia, the western one is Etelköz. Perfect. :medievalcheers:

Archbaker

09-29-2005, 16:20

Csatadi

10-02-2005, 09:12

69 - Levédia - ??? (land of the Magyars in 840/850)
???=> Camp of the Black Magyars

70 - Etelköz - ??? (land of the Magyars in 840/850)
???=> Camp of the White Magyars

These were the traditional names of the people living on the eastern part – Black Magyars, and the western part – White Magyars.

I suggest smaller Magyar provinces – especially Levédia because the Magyars should have at least one neighbouring Pecheneg province – otherwise they probably will not fight against the Magyars.

71 - Pannonia – Ofen
72 - Avarorum Solitudo - Kaliesa (sp?)
73 - Carpathia – Erlau
74 - Transylvania - ???
75 - Banat – Vidin

The northern and eastern borders of Carpathia and Transylvania didn’t give the curve of the Carpathian mountains.
I suggest a thicker Carpathia like the shape of Slovakia now.

I have a map about the Carpathian basin in the 9th century.
I don’t see there Ofen, Kaliesa, Erlau and Vidin.
71 Instead Ofen I suggest Blatenszki grad (=Mosaburg). In 847 Pribina founded here a (slav) duchy which stands to 876.
72 Avarorum Solitudo: I think it shouldn’t be called in Latin. The simply Avar Lands or Avar Steppe would be better. Instead of Kaliesa I suggest an Avar Camp. It is near the Danuvius in the same altitude like the lake Balaton (Pelissa).
73 This territory had slav inhabitants, the Ants. I suggest simply Camp of the Ants instead of Erlau. (You may have right but there isn’t any city on this part of the map.) If the western part will not be Moravian Nitrava (called now Nitra) can be its city.
74 I see 2 appropriate cities on the map. Zilingrad and Mojgrad are in the vicinity of where Dej and Cluj-Napoca lie now.
Mojgrad sounds well, what do you think?
75 I think the ’Bánát’ name was used only later, in the era of the Magyar Kingdom.
I don’t see well if Belgrad – it has the same name now – is in the province. I suggest this city if it is in Bánát. My map shows here slavs – the Brodniks. But there isn’t any city except of Belgrad.

Albanians (on the Balkan) are missing from the map. Historians say they are descendats of the Illiryans.

Meneldil

10-02-2005, 09:37

Could you put a map with these cities' emplacement ?

Csatadi

10-02-2005, 14:29

My atlas book is too large and I haven't got a scanner at home.

this one is similar to my map:
The Carpathian Basin before the Hungarian Conquest in the 9th century
http://mek.oszk.hu/01900/01993/html/cd1a/kepek/historical_geography/tf061gf95035.jpg

Other maps
wander of the Magyars
http://www.mek.iif.hu/porta/szint/egyeb/terkep/wander/wander.gif

Magyars, Byzantium etc.
http://mek.oszk.hu/01900/01993/html/index6.html

The Carpathian Basin before the Hungarian Conquest in the 9th century
very simple map:
http://www.mek.iif.hu/porta/szint/egyeb/terkep/carpat9/carpat9.gif

Other maps
Serbia
http://www.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/3/3e/300px-Serb_lands03.jpg

Turkic history - many turkic people. Be aware Pechenegs are called here to Besenyos.
http://www.turkicworld.org/

slavs:
http://freepages.history.rootsweb.com/~koby/political/chapter_01/0102slavs.jpg

Meneldil

10-02-2005, 14:31

Btw, Pechenegs aren't a playable faction in the Mod. We are currently looking for another faction to add (we got ride of the senate/papacy with BI), but we're rather thinking about the Seljuks, The Volga Bulghars or some slavic faction.

Csatadi

10-02-2005, 14:53

Ok. But I hope there will be Pechenegs in the game, some people will cry if not.
Here is the corrected map. Neon green sings show the place of cities.
http://birbin.tar.hu/vikings/Carp-basin-before-Magyars.JPG
Please save the image for yourself.

Meneldil

10-02-2005, 15:00

Yeah, there will be Pecheneg units

Archbaker

10-02-2005, 16:05

Meneldil

10-02-2005, 16:17

Wasn't the Papacy still a relatively large land holder and military power?

Seljuks are extremely late in the period, but could be interesting.

Slavs are a good idea. Would just a general Slav people be too close to existing factions? If so, Western Slavs as a general term, or Great Morania could maybe be used.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_peoples
The Polabians, specifically the Rojane from modern Rügen, would be an interesting choise because they were conquered by Denmark right after the period, but these could really just be represented by rebels.

Other possibilities:

Kingdom of Pamplona (like Asturia with bandit troops and less cavalry)
Basque Rebels (like Ostrogoths or Roman Rebels for whatever faction holds #13, #14 and #2. Bandit troops)
County of Catalunya (mix of Franks and Asturia)

I seem to have grown Hispano-centric. Who, besides Abbasids and al-Andalus, had power in North Africa?

The Papacy (Patrimonium Petrii) was supposedly a part of the Frankish Empire. It will be either a rebel province or owned by the Central Frankish Kingdom.
If we chose the Seljuks, they'll likely act in the same way as the Golden Horde in MTW.

North Africa, while nominally still ruled by the Caliph was divided between many different and often rival emirates (Idrisids, Aghlabids, Rustamids, etc.). And we won't be using a general slavic faction. I'm thinking about the Poles, but Poland wasn't even an idea in 843. I'll look deeper into this.

Csatadi

10-11-2005, 22:39

Meneldil:
I'm afraid Mojgrad the city I suggested to Transylvania is a strange one. I didn't find anything about it.
Maybe Belgrad in the Southern Carpathians would be better choose. You can see it on the map I sended.

And Blatenszki Grad in Pannonia is mainly called on its other name, Mosaburg.

The southern part of Transylvania was under Bulgarian rule. But there isn't any info from this era about it! I think it would be better if it remains a rebel province. The inhabitants were Slavs, Avars and a little Bulgarian community, but it cannot be full steppen culture. I think the slav culture must be the dominant one.

Speiz_Bankurt

10-26-2005, 04:37

There was actually no Slav presence in Transilvania. The only Slav presence was in present day Slovakia, and a very small, almost negligable presence in the areas west of the Danube in present day Hungary. At least this is what archeological research tells us.

One thing I noticed with the campaign map is that the provinces look a little strange in central europe. Shouldn't province borders correspond with historical borders of countries? What I mean is that lets say if I want to play as the Magyars, and want to create a country that on the camp map looks exactly like the one in real life did, I cannot do this as the shape of the provinces put together will not correspond to the historical borders of Hungary. If I am wrong because you have already updated the campmap, can you post it again so I can have a look at it?

Forgus

10-26-2005, 10:48

There was actually no Slav presence in Transilvania. The only Slav presence was in present day Slovakia, and a very small, almost negligable presence in the areas west of the Danube in present day Hungary. At least this is what archeological research tells us.

I have to oppose this.

There were two major Slavic area in Transsylvania in the 9th century
one the areas around the Olt, Küküllő and the valley of the Szamos; the areas later became (mere coincidence) later inhabited by the Székelys and the Saxons, and a different Slavic populace between the boundaries of a Kis Szamos-Meszes-Kraszna-Túr-Tisza line. None of these were too densely populated on imporant, since from that era only 5 Transsylvanian placenames have Slavic origin, and these are mostly greek names that went into Hungarian with Slavic transfer.

Of course the Bulgarian Turks were an other matter, but then they were not Slavic.

Csatadi

10-30-2005, 17:20

Speiz_Bankurt

10-31-2005, 07:02

Yes, I suppose linguistic evidence (settlement names and their origins) show different than archeological finds. I did say archeological evidence tells us... In any case, slavic presence was neglegable in the Carpathian basin, with the exception of present day slovakia.

Csatadi, I decided on this handle years ago when I was a quite immature, I thought it was going to be a private joke, but now there are more and more Hungarian speakers on these forums. I should probably change it.

Csatadi

11-02-2005, 13:54

Well, I'm in a very-very strange situation. On this forum I must insist the slavic presence. On the Chivalry TW forum the developers assume so much slav inhabitants which is an obvious exaggaration. ~:yin-yang:
I'm lucky, on this holiday I read about Transylvania in the 7-10th centuries (title of the book: Erdély rövid története).
A lot of rivers and cities wear slav names which is an important linguistic source. These names are from the slavs. If they lived not here there wouldn't be nobody to keep these names. And there are a lot of Magyar name which ones show us the lands without slavs. The findings don't show other facts than the origin of the names.

Even in the Dunántúl (Pannonia) there were a lot of slav people but there were not separated slavic regions in opposition to the present-day Slovakia.

I haven’t got enough time to convince you if you really want it you can find proper books. This book above want to be correct because of the pressure of the nationalism from all the sides.

I haven't got any problem with your name.

GoreBag

11-02-2005, 20:06

~:yin-yang:

Not related, but is that a Star Trek reference?

Csatadi

11-04-2005, 20:37

Not related, but is that a Star Trek reference?

This is the yin-yang smilie.

Csatadi

11-20-2005, 10:16

Notes to the map of the Carpathian basin
http://forums.rometotalrealism.org//index.php?showtopic=12181

Nacheras

11-23-2005, 15:26

Terrific page with a complete series of historic spanish maps

http://www.sabuco.com/historia/atlas%20hespa%C3%B1a.htm

Nacheras

11-26-2005, 11:21

Page about Ireland (Perhaps you known it...)

http://ceallachan.users.50megs.com/annals.html

Nacheras

11-26-2005, 11:25

Page with ancient byzantine images

http://www.sin-italy.org/jnonline/vol17n4/590.html

Csatadi

11-30-2005, 10:41

I edited my suggestions to the map of the Carpathian basin
http://forums.rometotalrealism.org//...howtopic=12181 (http://forums.rometotalrealism.org//index.php?showtopic=12181)

Meneldil

11-30-2005, 22:22

The link doesn't work. I'm now adding provinces in Hungary, but I can't find any infos about the cities you were speaking about earlier.
Maps from mek.oszk.hu are great, but I can't read the name of most of the cities.

Csatadi

12-01-2005, 13:56

Sorry, I corrected the link.

yes, the letters are hard to read. thats why I wrote their names in my posts. :-),

71 - Pannonia - Mosaburg
72 - Avar Steppes or Avar Lands - Avar Hring (the original sounds as it were in Latin) or Avar Camp
73 - Camp of Slavs. This province is very strage. The Carpathian mountains had very few inhabitants.
74 - Belgrad (same city as the Roman Apulum)
75 - Land of Brodniks or similar - Maybe Belgrad near the Danuvius (this is the Latin Singidunum). Yes, there were two Belgrad these days.

Here is a sample map:
http://birbin.tar.hu/vikings/carp843sugg.jpg

This map shows better the shape of the Carpathian basin.
I suggest these provinces:

1 - Pannonia - Slav duchy from 847, dux Pribina. not so important. Frank vassals
2 - Avar Steppes - Avars and Slavs. Avars are settled people already!
3 - Transylvania - if Pannonia is Latin it can also be Dacia. Slav and Avar inhabitants. May be Bulgarian vassals but I think it is better as a several province.
4 - you called this to Bánát which is an anachronism. This land hadnt any special name in this age. Slav (Brodnik) inhabitants it can be Land of Brodniks or similar. Under Bulgarian rule. The city can be Belgrad see above #75.
5 - part of Moravia. It is too small in itself. Can be part of the Moravia province or add to this nr6. Slovak inhabitants. If it is a separated province city can be Nitrava (it is signed on the map I sended earlier)
6 - as I wrote above 5 and 6 can be a province otherwise add to the Avar Steppes.

Harald Hairfair

12-12-2005, 22:44

Okey I love this mod, Can't wait!!! Dunno if this info is usefull, but conserning Norway and the campiagn map I have some suggestions :P

----------- YOUR IDEA
NORWAY AREA
* Hordaland - Bergen (town) (rebels)
* Hafrsfjord (rebels) - Nord-Jaeren / Stafangr
* Vaestfold - Kaupang (position close to Oslo but further down the fiord)
* Trondelag - Trondheim (town)
* Hologaland (modern Lofots area and mainland next to it) - Narvik
* Northern Norway - Tromso
* Finnmark - Kirkenes (situated next to Barents Sea and modern Russian border)

----------- MY Research :S?? :san_rolleyes:
* Hordaland - Bergen (Indeed the most important city in the medieval period)
* Hafrsfjord - Stafangr (Modern Stavanger yes..)
* Vaestfold - Kaupang\Oslo
(Good idea, Oslo was a small "settlement" at 1000-1100, and later became the greatest city. I would rathered used Oslo, you can also use Tunsberg as this was the first city in Norway, or both)
* Trondelag - NIDAROS!!!! (Important city, don't drop it! It was the capital for a long time. It's name was Nidaros NOT Trondheim :)
* Hologaland - Vågan!! Not Narvik, hehe. Look here:
http://www.lofoten-startside.no/bilder01/sat-kart.jpg (Vågan was directly north of 'Borg' next to the coast ;) You might also call the region for Lofoten?
* Northern Norway - Tromso (The most northern town mentioned on the net and books is Steinkjær.. A small town far north up the fjord near Nidaros\Trondheim. You might want to call the region Nordland (North-land) and split the wast land between Steinkjær and Kirknes at the middle for both of them. And let Lofoten just be the island(s)?? :san_cheesy: Tromsø didn't exist at this moment..)
* Finnmark - Kirkenes (Never existed at hat moment, maybe those blue clowns we call Sames had settled there to breed their reindeers..)

Anyways!! I've researched all that for you, I'll hope you'll use it :san_smiley: :san_cheesy: :charge:

And one more thing.. Will there be Wonders?

Cheers the viking

Rodion Romanovich

12-13-2005, 19:33

Thanks for the info. We're working on that map area at the moment. The province list available in this thread is an old version. We're removing many of the northernmost provinces but not the ground, just that there won't be any cities in the northernmost areas. We'll have some wonders, but we're probably not going to have any more than those we planned, and we're considering to skip wonders altogether, and use the wonder function for something else.

Krondor

12-22-2005, 01:24

Hello i could help you for the name of the citys of the province

take for:

Croatia = Zagreb Sisak as capital

Dalmacia = Spalato or Split

Servia = Beograd or Nis what was a fromer City with a big Castle

Could you guys take Croatia as a Party too? I mean in ancent time there where two Croatian Staates White and Red Croatia, the Region in Poland cald Croabatia was Whitecroatia the Dalmatican Coastline was Redcroatia. The founder of the Bulgarian Kingdom was a Croat and the East Ukrain was once a croat state too...

Servia as a party would be good too. Some strong Knights should they have. they had some good in the history.

Is there a posibility to add new religions like heretic or jews?

What about the English would they have knights?

And the French Templar Knights, for the german would be Toutonic Knighs nice :-)

Can i help with the mod it would be a honor for me ;-)

James

Rodion Romanovich

12-22-2005, 09:32

We already have the maximum number of factions allowed, so Croatia and Servia can't be a new faction. But they can be a rebel faction, which means they can have some unique units etc., but not be playable.

New religions can be added, but they're bugged, so we won't add any, as it seems now.

The Englisc wouldn't have something worthy of being called knights, but thegns, who would however be of quite low quality. Their main weapon is the fyrd and later also the huscarles.

The Germans can't have teutonic knights as they were introduced after the mod ended. However the hospitallers will be available to the Germans. But the three crusader units will all be very difficult to obtain before the mod ends.

If you want to help with the mod, what are your skills? Do you know skinning etc.? Do you know unit editing?

Zenith Darksea

12-22-2005, 12:31

If you like, I can provide advice on Byzantine provinces. I've already helped Chivalry: Total War out with their Byzantine provinces, and I flatter myself that I do know something of the Roman Empire in this period.

Rodion Romanovich

12-22-2005, 13:01

Ok, sounds interesting. You could look at some of our screenshots and see whether it's correct or not. I can post them here, but not now, because our internal forum seems to be down, and the links to the screenshots are there... ~:( I'll post the screenies as soon as the internal forum is up

Zenith Darksea

12-22-2005, 14:59

Ah, there's one problem that I've just remembered. I'm going to Scotland tonight on holiday over Christmas and New Year, so I won't have very frequent internet access. I might be able to look in once or twice though.

Krondor

12-22-2005, 15:07

Longbows for the English would be good too, becouse they had the best one in the Medivieal Area ;-)

I dont have any experince of moding rome but i did a bit for Star fleet command 3 and older games like star wars rebellion.

If anyone know where i can get a free version of 3ds Max i can make the models or a semilar program would be nice too.

Is there a ingame limitation of the number of faction that a game can have?

Rodion Romanovich

12-22-2005, 15:33

@Zenit: ok

Longbows for the English would be good too, becouse they had the best one in the Medivieal Area ;-)

I dont have any experince of moding rome but i did a bit for Star fleet command 3 and older games like star wars rebellion.

If anyone know where i can get a free version of 3ds Max i can make the models or a semilar program would be nice too.

Is there a ingame limitation of the number of faction that a game can have?

Actually, there were no Englisc longbows. The English after this era gradually incorporated the Welsh longbowmen (also training saxons and normans after the welsh pattern) after the normans conquered the kingdom of Englisc. The Welsh faction (Gwynnedd) will have very good longbowmen in this mod, though.

A 30 days or so trial version of 3DS Max can probably be obtained from their own homepage.

Yes, there's a faction limit.

Actually we get many people wanting to help, so it's a lot of work doing just the recruiting. Therefore we'd like to see some samples of what you have done before you can be recruited as a part of the mod team (but everyone is welcome, and encouraged, to post comments and suggestions in these forums). If you need it there are always tutorials available somewhere in the modding section of the guild. But we'd like a sample before recruiting for skinning/modelling, and some experience and knowledge on the files is needed for the coding.

Warbird

12-27-2005, 17:32

Rodion Romanovich

12-27-2005, 18:23

Any consideration for ships sailing up rivers and estuaries? This was one of the key advantages of the Viking longboats. Will the campaign map be adjusted to allow for this feature?

Perhaps if the map is too large in size and it cannot comprehend the small details of rivers then possibly provincial campaigns in various areas such as England, Normandy, Eastern Europe, Byzantium, etc. could be considered.

Yes, we'll have it for most larger rivers such as the Seine, the Dniepr and probably some more. It'll not only make longships able to sail up the rivers, but also allow cities like Paris to have rich naval trade.

Ianofsmeg16

12-27-2005, 19:40

Yes, we'll have it for most larger rivers such as the Seine, the Dniepr and probably some more. It'll not only make longships able to sail up the rivers, but also allow cities like Paris to have rich naval trade.
Are you going to be doing this for London or whatever city you have thats near the thames?

Rodion Romanovich

12-27-2005, 19:51

Yes, most likely we will

Csatadi

01-02-2006, 18:49

I have a good map from 900. It shows well the natural vegetation and the names of the slav and finno-ugrian people.
http://birbin.tar.hu/vikings/wanderandremain.jpg
Names are in hungarian but if you have an english list you can easily identify them. If you need help I will translate the names. I have this map also in my atlas. Sorry for the red lines.

Nacheras

01-03-2006, 13:46

If you make rivers sailing, then I remember you that Ixbila, at Al-Andalus, had an important river harbour (river Guadalquivir). In fact, the most important razzia of vikings at Al-Andalus arrived via Guadalquivir until Seville (Ixbila).
You can also make sailing the estuary of river Tajo.

Riadach

01-03-2006, 18:39

The Irish provinces should be;

Province - City
Muma/Mumainha (Munster) - Cashel (either this or Tuam should be the Irish starting position, though I suggest Cashel; Brian Boru was king of Munster)
Connaght (Connacht) - Tuam
Ulaid/Uladd (Ulster) - Ard Macha (Armagh) or Eahmain Macha (Navan)
Laigina/Laigin/Laighan (Leinster) - Faomhren/Ferns
Dubh Linn/Debh Linn - Dubh Linn (perhaps omit if in a bit of a province crunch; in all truth, Dublin wasn't that important until the Normans made it an administrative center; it more served as a 'back door' for Norse landings than actually provide an important role of its own)
Midhe/Mide (Meath) - Teamhaidh/Teamhair (Tara)

Few mispellings here
Mumha was nom. mumhan, gen and mumhain dat. Cashel is Caiseal in irish. Tuaim. Connacht was really a backwater till the 12th century though, i would recommend Midhe as the starting position after all it was they under maoilseachlainn who first established the high-kingship as fact and not poetic conseit.
Ulaidh or Uladh was a sub-province at this stage. it only occupied the counties of down and antrim since the Uí Néill invasions of the 5th century. But enjoyed virtually independent status.

The major power of the north was an tuaisceart which spans the same lands as old ulster, dominated political affairs there and usually the sub-provinces of ulaid and airghialla submitted to it, usually.

Laighin/Laighean(gen) Capital at this stage was dún ailinne(hill of allen) wasn't ferns (fearna) until the tenth century whaen diarmuid mac maoil na mbó (Diarmaid na ngall's great-grandfather) took the power.

Dubh Linn was of tremendous importance at this stage and a tasty prize for any king with the ability to take it.

Midhe- yes capital teamhair/temair but never heard of teamhaidh. Even in the 7th century Muirchiú in his life of st. Patrick describes it as Temoria in latin and that was one of the oldest irish writings.