EU pol

[Kagemusha]

This is simple.Do you support EU developing as an Federal State?

[Duke Malcolm]

No! In the name of all that we hold dear : No!
Such blasphemy, 'tis a crime, surely.
Giving some European fool dominion over these Sacred Isles is wrong, and hasn't been tried since the Romans, who failed. Other Continental types tried to get little bits, but not the whole, and they still failed, except William of Normandy, who managed to defeat the English, 'cause they weren't as good as those French-types...

Rather give the British Commonwealth of Nations dominion over the Isles, because we run that...

[Al Khalifah]

Absolutely not.
Not until there is a common goal for the EU will I ever believe in it and I strongly doubt such an ideal will ever emerge.

[Ldvs]

Yes, I do. I'm for a strong European government and Parliament (removal of the Commission if possible, unless they're only given an advisory role). I wouldn't mind harsh methods (departure of many states, even big ones) if it could lead to a EU core sharing the same ambition and not crippled by compromises.

[Shambles]

Gb has money that EU would share amongs them selfs,
i see no gain in GB becoming a part of the EU

But then Its not nice to keep the money and let others suffer
so I say GAH!

[ShadesWolf]

NO !
:help:

[Crazed Rabbit]

Hmm. I don't know. Europe as it is appears to be a motley collection of socialist, decaying economies. Seeing as I'm an American, that isn't so bad. However, we want someone to be able to buy our goods and stuff, so having the rest of the world turn into a copy of Cuba wouldn't be good.

And what is the EU? A large federation of motley, socialist, decaying economies? It would seem relatively benign and harmless, but for their seemingly endless ambition to challenge and best America. Not to mention that the heads of the EU seem to want to turn it into one giant superstate and eliminate national soveriegnty.

If I live in the EU area, I'd be screaming no, but as it is, I'll just politely mention that I think its a bad idea.

Crazed Rabbit

[Mount Suribachi]

Good grief no!

[Lazul]

Crazy Rabbit... there is nothing socialistic about the EU and our economy is hardly decaying, atleast not more then the US economy.

[A.Saturnus]

It seems the naysayers are more vocal.

[Kagemusha]

It seems the naysayers are more vocal.

It seems to me this is going to be tight one.

[doc_bean]

Yes, but I don't want to rush it.

I'd rather have a common market than no common market, I'd rather have a strong union in a 100years than one forced upon the people now.

I think, if a federal union is ever going to happen, the UK should probably get a special statute.

[Boohugh]

Absolut-diddly-outly not.

Sorry, been watching too much Simpsons

[JAG]

Yes, definitely.

I would not mind at all if the UK was one state among the greater being - the EU.

[bmolsson]

A large European Federation is necessary to save the world from all those small "besserwisser" countries around Europe. Europeans are good, but much better in minority...... ~;)

[Kaiser of Arabia]

No! It's a travesty that would lead to the ultimate destruction of civilization outside the American continent! All it would do is create a weak superstate that would fall to the hordes of radical communists and anarchists from within, and would perpetuate the downfall of not only European society and culture, but civilization and culture in the world itself. [/rant]

[cunctator]

Yes, at all cost. I prefer a democratic EU over nearly anything else. (A world state would still be better.) The nation state becomes outdated in a globalised world. There are so many things that could better be dealt with on a european level. Why do the 25 EU countries need 25 seperate armys? Why more than one currency? ....

[thrashaholic]

Ultimately yes looking to the long term, but at present a load and resounding no.

Continental Europe needs to sort itself out economically, it needs a good set of monetarist Thatcher-esque reforms. It doesn't take a genius to see that because Britain had Thatcher we are now prospering above and beyond our neighbours.

The EU itself also needs major reforms to eliminate all the corruption, bureaucracy and inequity rife at all levels. Trimming down the number of official languages to an absolute maximum of 3 (English, French, German) would help.

Basically, for the EU to work, everone should become just a little more British ~;)

[Ldvs]

Yes, definitely.

I would not mind at all if the UK was one state among the greater being - the EU.
You must feel alone in the UK JAG. I'd wager you've regularly received death threats for expressing such pro-Euro opinions ~D


Basically, for the EU to work, everone should become just a little more British
If it means adopting Thatcherism, I'd rather exile. There are already enough poor in our European countries, especially in the UK.

[doc_bean]

I think English should become the main European language, almost everyone besides the French speaks it already pretty decently anyway.

[Ldvs]

I think English should become the main European language, almost everyone besides the French speaks it already pretty decently anyway.
It is already. If you want a proof: the Constitution was written in English before any other language. Personally, I would be favorable to English as the official language because both French and German have a horrible grammar and conjugation is a pure nightmare.

[Al Khalifah]

English is slowly becomming the international language of Scandinavia too. Rather than learn two other languages to speak to other Scandinavians they can just learn one and be able to speak to people from pretty much every other EU country as well.

It makes sense to learn English.

[Ldvs]

I don't speak any Scandinavian languages, but it seems to me that Norwegian, Danish and Swedish are quite close, especially Danish and Swedish. I heard they could understand each other despite their different accent. I don't know to what extent this is right, maybe a Scandinavian will affirm or negate that claim.

[English assassin]

I can understand the view that the nation state is done (I have to say I don't agree but I can understand it). What I don't understand is how you go from that to deciding that the answer is...... a really big nation state.

IMHO Europe is too different, largely economically but also socially, for a federal state to work. Really very important structural factors like home ownership or pension provision are hugely different accross the members. That was true before enlargement, heaven only knows what it is like now. The place simply can't be run as one country, even a federal one.

Besides, can't we come up with something a bit more 21st century rather than apeing 19th century America?

If you ask me, what we need is 50 years of gradual convergance until we arrive at a state where some forms of political and economic union are seen as naturally desirable. Too many second rate administrators and wannabe Washingtons are desperate to get their names into the history books as the "architects" of a European state.

Of course it doesn't help that some countries don't seem to have noticed that its not 1970 anymore, in economic terms. But presumably over 50 years they would see the error of their ways as they continued to decline?

[Ldvs]

Besides, can't we come up with something a bit more 21st century rather than apeing 19th century America?
What they have seems to work much better than what we have.


If you ask me, what we need is 50 years of gradual convergance until we arrive at a state where some forms of political and economic union are seen as naturally desirable. Too many second rate administrators and wannabe Washingtons are desperate to get their names into the history books as the "architects" of a European state.
Gradual convergence? How are we to achieve that when the EU's current institutions lead us to a stalemate. Everything is locked. You need to compromise on each bit of article, law or decree. Do you sincerely think we'll manage to converge? In my opinion, you don't want to.

[Snowhobbit]

I don't speak any Scandinavian languages, but it seems to me that Norwegian, Danish and Swedish are quite close, especially Danish and Swedish. I heard they could understand each other despite their different accent. I don't know to what extent this is right, maybe a Scandinavian will affirm or negate that claim.
THat is a vlaim I will affirm, although Norwegian is alot easier to understand than Danish, to much German in that language :duel:

[Meneldil]

Surprisingly, the Yes is winning, with a rather large advance.

And I thought you all were a bunch of anti-EU guys ~;)

[Ja'chyra]

I voted yes, but I wouldn't say that it is anywhere near ready.

When it does happen I will consider myself Scottish, as I do now I never refer to myself as British.

[Ldvs]

Surprisingly, the Yes is winning, with a rather large advance.

And I thought you all were a bunch of anti-EU guys ~;)
The silent majority, Meneldil ~;)

[English assassin]

Gradual convergence? How are we to achieve that when the EU's current institutions lead us to a stalemate. Everything is locked. You need to compromise on each bit of article, law or decree. Do you sincerely think we'll manage to converge? In my opinion, you don't want to

Well, there are some obvious cultural differences right there. Your reasoning suggests you see institutions as an engine of convergance. I see convergance as the fundamental driver, from which acceptable institutions would follow. I don't want to be MADE to converge, de haut en bas, no. But I don't see any reason why the free market that we have already will not in time and of itself drive a broader and consensual social and economic convergance that could then be reflected politically.

They are great planners, on the continent, IMHO. A plan is the answer for everything and nothing happens without a plan. Ergo to converge we must plan convergance. IMHO there are forces in history that will have their way more or less what you do with them, and the thing is not to plan but to perceive the way things are moving and move with them.

[doc_bean]

There is no point in having a European state if the people living in it don't consider themselves, at least up to a certain point, European.

I think this is happening with the 'younger' generations, but it will take a while before it becomes a general feeling amongst the people of Europe.

Towards an ever closer Union, one small step at a time.

[Kagemusha]

I don't speak any Scandinavian languages, but it seems to me that Norwegian, Danish and Swedish are quite close, especially Danish and Swedish. I heard they could understand each other despite their different accent. I don't know to what extent this is right, maybe a Scandinavian will affirm or negate that claim.

I agree that Sweden,Norway and Denmark are quite similar languages.But in scandinavia there is also one crazy little people:Finish.I know that the Sweds,Danes and Norsemen know this,but Finish language is not even an Indo-European language.Its Finno-Ugrig.As the name says there are only Three nations in Europe who belong to our language group:Finish,Hungarians and Estonians.
If you guys like to check it up.Go to Taverns frontroom to talk your own language thread and try make some sense what im posting there.(Ok.I know i dont make any sense anyways ~D ).

[King Henry V]

No! The Europeans are too diverse. I mean, what does somebody from Slovakia have in common culturally with someone from say Cornwall? Not much. They only way a federal state would be possible is if traditional heritage and culture were gradually eroded in each country. Is that what you really want? For Europe to be just one bland state? Why is a federal state even needed? The Golden era of European domination is almost past. Few nations ever regain their power. Instead a vision of a European super-state is just clutching at straws, trying desperatley to hold on to a dead dream. Europe has to face up to reality. It will never be able to compete with the likes of India and China. Today the whole of Europe only amounts to HALF the population of India. And within fifty years, unless their is a mass immigration flux, Europe (because of an ageing population) will have a smaller population whilst India and China will probably have a larger one.
Also, would you like to be ruled from a capital so many miles away, which doesn't not always have your best interests at heart?

[Ldvs]

No!
That's funny how vehement you are against the EU. If your profile info is correct you're living in Switzerland, right? Tell me why do you care about the EU and its cultural diversity? Do you fear that one day your country will join it and be swallowed, or that it will be a small land in the middle of a very large federal State?

[Meneldil]

The Europeans are too diverse. I mean, what does somebody from Slovakia have in common culturally with someone from say Cornwall?

So ?
US were created through diversity. People who emigrated to the US were not all Irish or Anglo-Saxons.
And it's a well known fact that inhabitants of the Russian Federation are all russians. Or wait, they aren't, no ?
The list goes on for many Federal States.

A western german had probably less in common with a eastern german than with a french, or a dutch in the late 90's, yet they are living together now.

doc_bean, I fully agree with you. If a European State is ever created, I'll probably never see it. Some young people are now feeling as being european rather than french, german, italian, but they are only a minor part of the population.
In my university, I meet a lot of Germans, Italians, Spanish who already speak 3 or 4 languages, who lived for a while in all major european country and who are barely 20. I think they'll be the women and the men who will build a real political Europe, and not just an economical one.

[Duke Malcolm]

http://img176.echo.cx/img176/9412/thebritishempire7oc.jpg

This is my idea of a united Europe...

While the continental-types may speak a variety of languages, we people of these isles rarely speak our own, never mind foreign ones...

[King Henry V]

That's funny how vehement you are against the EU. If your profile info is correct you're living in Switzerland, right? Tell me why do you care about the EU and its cultural diversity? Do you fear that one day your country will join it and be swallowed, or that it will be a small land in the middle of a very large federal State?
I'm English. Already in Switzerland there a moves towards Europe (the Schengen/Dublin agreements were voted through by referendum a few days ago). What I don't want to see is an adoption of the euro, which will increase prices in an already expensive country.


So ?
US were created through diversity. People who emigrated to the US were not all Irish or Anglo-Saxons.
And it's a well known fact that inhabitants of the Russian Federation are all russians. Or wait, they aren't, no ?
The list goes on for many Federal States.

A western german had probably less in common with a eastern german than with a french, or a dutch in the late 90's, yet they are living together now.

doc_bean, I fully agree with you. If a European State is ever created, I'll probably never see it. Some young people are now feeling as being european rather than french, german, italian, but they are only a minor part of the population.
In my university, I meet a lot of Germans, Italians, Spanish who already speak 3 or 4 languages, who lived for a while in all major european country and who are barely 20. I think they'll be the women and the men who will build a real political Europe, and not just an economical one.
Yes but the immigrants arriving in the US were anglicised to a certain point. They had to learn English after a while and if they didn't then they could just go home. They had a choice: adapt you culture to ours or leave. People in a federal Europe would not have choice since they are their home. The Russian Federation was made by conquest not by integration. The only reason why the Fedration does not split is because an independant Siberia would not be a very rich country.
What you say about the West Germans is just complete and utter crap. My father's German and I had family in both East and West Germany. There is hardly any difference at all between them. You can't say that 2 countries which were once one and have the same language and culture have less in common with each other than a neighbouring country which does not have the same culture or the same language.

[Ldvs]

I'm English. Already in Switzerland there a moves towards Europe (the Schengen/Dublin agreements were voted through by referendum a few days ago).
The last time you were asked whether you'd like to join the EU it was pretty clear you didn't. Step by step, Switzerland is being integrated but I seriously doubt your compatriots will join the EU, in the end.


What I don't want to see is an adoption of the euro, which will increase prices in an already expensive country.
Could you show me the link between a federal State and a common currency? We already have a common currency and we're far from living in a giant federal State, so I hope you may be able to explain that to me, for I fail to comprehend your logic.

[King Henry V]

What I mean is that certain Swiss businessmen are pushing for the euro so as to increase trade.