Don't mess with the US state department! [Archive]

Ja'chyra

06-07-2005, 10:58

There seems to be an outcry here because the some police units are trialling them, the argument being that you can accidentally kill people with them. Personally I would rather take the risk with a taser than have the police call out the armed response unit and then get shot in the head.

I'm sure people will say that sooner or later an innocent person will be tased, if that is the right word, but I see that as regretable but acceptable to protect the police and allow them to protect everyone else. Look at the nutter that was running around with the sword a couple of years ago, people complained when he was shot but with this he caould have been taken down with a lot less risk of death. (there was also complaints because it turned out he was mentally ill but if he's running at you with a sword then there's not much chance to sit him down and ask about his mum)

All in all I would say that these are reasonable addition to the police's arsenal.

doc_bean

06-07-2005, 11:01

And I thought they were harsh on people going over the speed limit here !

:help:

Don Corleone

06-07-2005, 11:45

The police officer told her three times to get off the phone and exit the vehicle. She refused, and in fact, told her friend to come down to the traffic stop location. Calling for reinforcements could be viewed as threatening behavior.

Besides, the cops have to get tased themselves, several times, during training so they know how much it hurts. If you ask me, the driver was lawsuit shopping. What she didn't know was the whole thing was captured on tape, showing how she repeatedly refused to follow police instructions.

BDC

06-07-2005, 17:04

Wow, that's harsh. Why didn't they just pull her out and sit on her?

EDIT: Although to be fair, anyone who doesn't just get out when someone points a tasar at them probably deserves to be shot for being terminally stupid.

Ldvs

06-07-2005, 17:23

She truly deserves what she's got. When a policeman demands something you do it, even though he's harsh or rude (the policeman behaved properly in that case). Moreover, I've never got tased but I doubt it makes you scream to death as though you're thrown into fire, does it?

Don Corleone

06-07-2005, 18:00

Speaking from experience, it friggen hurts, but not that bad. There's no current behind it, it's a static discharge. So, it's like the zap you get on a doorknob on a cold winter's morning, but more intense. It's gone almost as soon as you feel it.

And BDC, she wasn't stupid. She was intentionally provoking the policeman. The first words out of her mouth, after she finished screaming were "you're racist, you're abusing me". Even though the police officer was African-American!

Trust me, this woman was looking for a way to buy a new Pathfinder. You don't drive 70mph through a busy intersection, and a RED LIGHT, and then tell the cops 'you hold on, I'm on the phone. I'll get off when I feel like it. You just wait for now", unless you're trying to get a response. When the cop pointed the taser at her, the first thing she said to her friend was "get down here". Lawsuit shopping, maybe not very identifiable to Europeans, but alas, all too common here in the US.

Kanamori

06-07-2005, 18:41

I'd imagine it's good for business ~:)
~:cheers:

Beirut

06-07-2005, 22:39

That cop is a POS. He should be fired, sued, and thrown in jail. If not for assault then for aggravated stupidity. Two cops, armed to the teeth, experienced in unarmed combat techniques to subdue individuals, backup available, and they resort to a level of desperate violence against a verbally resisting 22 year-old woman.

Idiot. Idiot. Idiot.

And they wonder why so many people hate them.

Ldvs

06-08-2005, 09:43

verbally resisting 22 year-old woman.
Who's the idiot then? If he had dragged her out of the car it would have certainly been more violent than what happened. As Corleone said it, she was likely looking for a lawsuit.

Beirut

06-08-2005, 11:26

If that bonehead cop was worth half his salary, he would be well able to use a simple wrist hold or something like it and force her out of the car. Resorting to using a Taser because a 22 year-old woman didn't jump to his command is ridiculous. I'm not saying the conditions don't exist that would justify using the Taser on her, but that the conditions did not exist at the time to use the Taser on her.

It is well known that many people have died after being hit with a Taser. There was no risk to the cop's life (from what I could see). She was not attempting to flee. She was not posing a threat to herself or others. She was simply giving the cop a hard time. That does not justify what he did. He was lazy, arrogant, unprofessional, acted dangerously and with contempt for life and used a measure of violence all out of proportion to the threat.

Fire the bum, sue the department, and make a tv movie of the whole stupid thing.

doc_bean

06-08-2005, 11:45

I was under the impression that he was following procedure.

Laridus Konivaich

06-08-2005, 15:21

But see, I suggest that you would all say, "The criminal got what they deserved," if the incident was just described as a criminal speeding through the light at seventy, et cetera. You are only defensive and questioning of the officer because the criminal was young and female. This is my suggestion.

bmolsson

06-08-2005, 15:43

I was under the impression that he was following procedure.

Why did you shoot me ?? I was just walking in the park ???
Just a routine control, mam.....

Don Corleone

06-08-2005, 16:12

She wasn't just strolling in the park. That's the point, Bmolsson. If you go around flagrantly violating laws and jeopradizing other people's health & safety, you have to expect that the police are going to be a little anxious to get your hands on you. If you don't want unwanted police attention, follow the laws. They've got plenty of things to worry about that they don't go looking for trouble (for the most part).

marcusbrutus

06-08-2005, 16:17

I would have shot her more than twice with her attitude.

Don Corleone

06-08-2005, 16:31

Let's review the facts of the case here... you have a driver with a cracked windshield & a broken tail light driving 51 mph through a 35mph zone. Anything more than 15 mph over the posted limit and the officer can take her into custody for reckless driving.

He pulls her over. She immediately opens the door and starts yelling at him. Where I come from, if you open the door during a traffic stop, you could get shot. You are to sit there with your hands on the steering wheel until the officer walks up. If it's night time, turn the dome light on. Why? You're all assuming the officer knew ahead of time that it was all going to turn out okay. But how could he know that? Do you know what the #1 activity officers who've been shot are engaged in? Making a routine traffic stop.

I don't argue that tasers are harmless, of should be used for fun, and do they hurt, but for crying out loud, do what the police tell you to. If they're out of line and acting beyond their jurisdiction, get a lawyer. But don't confront them (verbally or physically) out there on the highway. You're going to make them very nervous, as that's how most roadside shootings begin.

There's a case here in North Carolina where an officer was attempting to stop a drunk 19 year old from driving. He reached into the car to shut the car off and the guy rolled the window up and drove off... at speeds up to 70mph! for over 1.5 miles, dragging the police officer along. Now, if we want to use this 'the police officer could have...' mentality, this is a great example of why it doesn't work. Had the officer just tased the guy when he refused to shut the car off, he wouldn't be in the hospital right now.

Don Corleone

06-08-2005, 16:35

On a different note, why does the post title refer to the State Department? I didn't see Condi mentioned anywhere. ~D Or was that her driving? ~:eek:

English assassin

06-08-2005, 18:00

Where I come from, if you open the door during a traffic stop, you could get shot.

(...slowly tears up green card application form, keeping hands in plain view and avoiding any sudden movements...)

Well I sure hope this little bit of knowledge is passed on to foreigners when they rent a car in the States because where I come from motoring organisations sometimes suggest you should get out of the car as the police car pulls you over to make it clear you aren't going to drive off.

She was taser-ed for being lippy, right? That's bad. That's not policing by consent that's policing by superior force, and that's bad. In the UK, if you mouth off to a PC, you can be charged, because being rude to policemen is not allowed. And if you are a threat you can be shot with a taser, according to strict rules of engagement and only by an officer is special firearms units. Almost every use of a taser is investigated after the event by an independent body.

Seems to me this cop got punishing people for being rude and using force to neutralise a threat confused here.

Don Corleone

06-08-2005, 18:02

I'm actually really surprised they don't relay that information. 'Where I come from' in question isn't the deep South, I'm actually from Connecticut. But every where I've ever been, cops freak out if you hop out of the car.

And he tasered her after telling her 5 times to get out of the car. She was resisting arrest. How would you deal with it? Reach into the car and drag her out? Say 'next time, watch your mouth, but this time you're free to go'?

UglyandHasty

06-08-2005, 18:13

But every where I've ever been, cops freak out if you hop out of the car.

It's the same here. Dont ever, ever get out of the car. It's comon sense too.

English assassin

06-08-2005, 18:25

They do this in Connecticut? What must Tennessee be like...

Anyway, I would deal with it according to my forces SOP, which of course may be what this guy did. I am not sure what a UK SOP would be though I can guarantee it wouldn't involve leaning through the window for obvious reasons. Probably try to remove car keys through an open drivers side door, failing which return to vehicle and summon an other car to block the suspects vehicle in before extracting the driver with minimum force necessary.

Then charge her with resisting arrest.

English assassin

06-08-2005, 18:26

It's the same here. Dont ever, ever get out of the car. It's comon sense too.

I guess I just don't have the "anyone might be a heavily armed maniac" mindset...

Don Corleone

06-08-2005, 18:42

Well, like I said, cops are more likely to get shot on a routine traffic stop then on a drug bust. It's the single most dangerous thing they do, because they never know who they're pulling over, and they're all alone. The criminals know this and figure, one shot, and I'm free again....

As far as extracting her from the vehicle, what if she had a knife and plunged it into him when he reached in to take her out? Is it your contention that the police officer must place themselves at risk of harm in order to spare a resisting arestee some discomfort?

Look, I'm no fan of a police state, and I'm a big believer in civil liberties. But you guys need to find a better cross to nail our cops to than this case. I find your poster child to be rather unsympathetic, in my eyes.

Blodrast

06-08-2005, 20:58

It's the same here. Dont ever, ever get out of the car. It's comon sense too.

Actually, it's NOT common sense at all. In several countries in Europe, for example, you're _supposed_ to get out of your car, walk back to the police car which is parked behind your vehicle, with your papers, etc, etc. They _expect_ you to do that, they're not gonna get out of their car to come to you (or you may expect trouble if you force them to do so).

This has undoubtedly caused a good deal of problems to drivers going from one side to the other.

So, you see, those europeans would consider getting out of the car to be common sense, too. Just because one is used to things being done one way, doesn't mean that's the only way ~:cheers:

Blodrast

06-08-2005, 20:59

on another note, since the police are carrying tasers, I assume they are pretty safe, i.e. there is a very low risk of killing someone with a heart condition ?...

Sir Moody

06-09-2005, 05:18

to be honest i dont see how anyone could defend her Actions - she refused to obey the orders of a Police oficer - not just ignored she openly and verbally REFUSED - the officer did the right thing

on the other hand in Europe the police generally dont have to worry about heavily armed nuts and so it is encouraged for the person to get out with Driver lisence to speed up the process - in the US where every man and his dog is armed i can imagine its a far more daunting process... so it is common sense still if you think about it

Fragony

06-09-2005, 10:13

What is so bad about it, can you yanks please come to Holland to train our police? Our invade us? This is how it goes here,

guy doesn't want to pay for tramticked.
ticket guy still wants it.
ticket guy gets assaulted.
ticket guy gently kicks him out of the tram.
guy faints.
ticket guy gets charged with attemted manslaughter.
guy wants money from state.
guy will no doubt get it.
ticket guy loses job.

Poor Leroy... (http://cgi.omroep.nl/cgi-bin/streams?/tv/nps/nova/bb.20050607-a.asf?start=0:0:58.705&end=0:22:28.673)

Ticket guy is white so of course guilty, non-paying guy is black so he can do whatever the hell he wants in lalaland.

Beirut

06-09-2005, 11:16

to be honest i dont see how anyone could defend her Actions - she refused to obey the orders of a Police oficer - not just ignored she openly and verbally REFUSED - the officer did the right thing

I'm not defending her actions, I'm saying the cop's actions were out of proportion to the threat.

As far as what to do when stopped, I've heard many times, just open the window, turn on the interior lights if at night, and keep both hands on the top of the steering wheel.

doc_bean

06-09-2005, 11:41

Fragony

06-09-2005, 11:58

And then people wonder why I want to be considered belgian and not Dutch :dizzy2:

We both have our problems of course, but the Dutch 'let's talk about it' attitude sickens me sometimes. You don't NEED to understand criminals, just punish them.

More of a 'let's don't do anything at all unless something is directed against immigrants' attitude, then you get 3 years in prison for thinking about torching a mosk :dizzy2:

English assassin

06-09-2005, 13:30

As far as extracting her from the vehicle, what if she had a knife and plunged it into him when he reached in to take her out? Is it your contention that the police officer must place themselves at risk of harm in order to spare a resisting arestee some discomfort?

Its certainly my contention that a cop should not be allowed to use a taser on someone because they might have a knife. After all, even in the UK, anyone MIGHT have a knife, so you would be allowing cops to taser anyone if they felt a bit nervous that day.

Pre-emptive force should NEVER be allowed.

But then as you know our police are unarmed (well, they carry batons and CS spray) so I am coming from a whole different place.

Beirut

06-09-2005, 13:35

Mind you, in Montreal, not too far away from me, you would have to be crazy not to get out of the car when the cops tell you too because the cops there are crazy. They'd go right at you with their steel flashlights if you said no more than once. And if you are black... you better have a will written out before you backtalk a cop. There isn't a Mississippi backwoods KKK cop who would shoot a black person faster than a Montreal cop.

Crazy bunch of SOBs.

Don Corleone

06-09-2005, 13:36

So in your mind, the onus of risk should be on the law enforcement personnel? They should be the ones to put themselves in harm's way, and only be able to retaliate after an attack has been made? They shouldn't be able to pre-emptively stop an attack?

Low pay, lousy hours, disrepsect, AND they have less rights than the criminals they're trying to arrest. How do you get anyone to sign up for this job?

English assassin

06-10-2005, 11:34

Well you are putting it a bit high Don but basically yes. Unless a person is clearly a threat to the policeman or another person then certainly no weapon should be used. Force should be restricted to the absolute minimum necessary, eg if the person will not get into the police car it is ok to take hold of them and push them into the car. It is not OK to beat them until they agree to obey your instructions.

Where does this "they might have a knife" argument end? What if I am 6'3" and 200lbs, can they taser me then? What if I am 5'10" but have a window sticker from my local karate club?

My great uncle was a policeman of the old school (that's to say, of the old "if you can beat me you can go, and if I beat you you are coming to the station" school. Malcolm didn't lose too many fights, even though Chatham was a dockyard town). He was a lovely bloke and Kent Police gave him a huge send off at his funeral, but even so I really don't think we want the likes of Malcolm in the police any more.

(But if you get to heaven and a big bloke with a broken nose called Malcolm asks you to move along, my advice is to move...)

bmolsson

06-11-2005, 03:40

Beirut

06-11-2005, 11:12

So in your mind, the onus of risk should be on the law enforcement personnel?

It's the nature of their job. A cop who won't take risks is like a doctor who can't stand the sight of blood.

They should be the ones to put themselves in harm's way, and only be able to retaliate after an attack has been made?

Yes. And no. They have to put themselves in harm's way. Otherwise they would not be able to do their job. That said, it is of course more than reasonable that they be allowed to use their judgement regarding the situation and act when required. That judgement must be honed by training and experience, not by temper and impatience.

They shouldn't be able to pre-emptively stop an attack?

Of course they can stop an attack. That is also part of their job. But again, they need to use their judgement and be able to differentiate between a potentially hostile situation and the someone just blowing them ****. I don't think it's a good I idea to give a cop too much ****, but it is even worse when the cop can't handle it.