Yuuki\'s Elegant Morale Solution!

[Kraellin]

first off, i'm not going to post what this solution is. that's up to yuuki. it's his baby. but, i will say this, it's the simplest, best solution i've heard to the morale discussion so far. it makes sense and i'm surprised DI/CA didnt think of it in the first place.

yuuki (puzz3d) discussed this with me last night and the more i think about it, the more i like it. everyone pretty much gets what they want and it eliminates some quirky oddities from the game.

but again, this is his baby, so i'll let him post it when he's ready...this is just a more or less 'prod' to get him to post some info on it so we can start hashing it out :) i think even kocmoc and magy and takeshido could live with this one ;) and now having said that, i'm sure someone will disagree *grin*

K.


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I'm sorry, but i never apologize.

[Polar]

now where is da man??? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/rolleyes.gif

[DarthGuru]

come on Yuuki, dont be shy http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[Polar]

i have candy for u........ http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

[Puzz3D]

The idea was for online and custom games to have morale reduced by a compromise value between old STW and WE/MI (I like 8 points), for units to be purchased at honor=0, and for the default koku to be raised to something like 20,000.

Raising the default koku to 20,000 basically eliminates the 8 point morale setback while providing plenty of flexibility to purchase upgrades. Dropping the honor of purchased units to 0 represents a 4 point morale reduction. I've played WE/MI test games online with Kraellin and TosaInu at a 4 point morale reduction on all units, and it plays closer to the present WE/MI than to STW. This might be a compromise that everyone could live with. It would mean more mouse clicking to spend all that koku. People who like the STW morale system would just set the koku to 5000, and you would effectively have the full 12 point morale reduction necessary to achieve that.

I think buying honor=0 units would stop the monk rush at 5000 koku, and be a diminishing deterent up to 8000 koku where you can then buy 16 monks. At 5000 koku you can purchase 10 monks. If they were honor=0, then you would not be able to sell back honor points to buy more monks. This sellback strategy is particularly effective with monks because the value of honor points is proportional to the value of the unit instead of being a fixed cost. Selling back 3 honor points from 3 H2 monks nets nearly enough to purchace another H2 monk. Those 3 honor points are equivalent to 3 melee attack points, and 6 morale points. The H2 monk that can then be purchased has 6 attack and 3 defend points for a total of 9 melee points. So, you triple the melee points each time this transaction is made, and you get it in another unit to maneuver during battle. So, as a player sells back the honor points to get more monks, he is also boosting the overall strength on his army. It would be a free 26% boost if you sell back 12 H2 honor points.

MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~

p.s. I am not going to be playing STW or WE/MI online for a while due to personal reasons. I hope to be able to return to online play at some point, but can't say when that will be.

[Khan7]

What we need is something like Yuuki has out already, i.e. that batch file that changes stats easily, but we need something that is actually good and useful. The current version only has one option, and that option messes with a lot more than just morale.

If perhaps Yuuki could improve upon his model, then the problem would essentially be solved. I have already, of course, done this, but as no one really likes the stuff that I do I am assuming no one wants it.

Matt

[Puzz3D]

Khan7,

For the Sengoku game, the only changes from STW besides the morale was the lenghthening of the samurai archer range, and an increase in speed of the cav archer to reflect their light armor. CA/DT has stated that the archers are supposed to have longer range than guns, and they would also have longer range than cav archers since cav archers have a short bow. YC can still catch CA, but they are closer in speed than before. The new stats can be used as they stand to get an idea of how the lower morale works. The bat file makes it easy to switch back to the original stats which is important.

The online Mongol game needs something done. The changes I made are just an idea for people to try, and then give some feedback. CA/DT is moving ahead. They will soon set their work schedule for the WE/MI patch. After that it won't matter what people post here because it will never make it into the patch.

I'm without a computer at the moment. So, I can't do any more on this right now. I could try to get a new version up which only has morale changed, but I think there is very litle time now to get feedback and pass it on to CA/DT. I think that a compromise in morale level between STW and WE/MI is probably what will be implemented in the patch.

MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~

[Tangent]

"I think that a compromise in morale level between STW and WE/MI is probably what will be implemented in the patch."

This will be grim news if true. If this compromise results in morale remaining simply an after effect of massive casualties, morale will have ceased to be the decisive factor in combat and the game will have lost a critical element of realism. There is a reason why the expert players were playing at low honor levels; to use the morale system to its fullest extent. A compromise threatens that end of the spectrum. Accordingly this is one area where I don't think that a compromise will work.

Frankly, I find the situation to be a mess. The Mongol units were not properly designed or developed and CA/EA unwittingly attempted to compromise the morale system because of that fact. However, I have some faith that the patch will be much closer to the original STW settings than is suggested by the word "compromise." I keep the hope that they have listened to their best players (I am not one of them BTW). I am further reassured by the fact that the original designer for the STW morale system has been hired again to work on Crusader: Total War. He did not work on WE/MI (and it shows...badly) but hopefully he will provide some input into the patch. His posts, under the name of longjohn2, demonstrate that he is knowledgeable.

For reference, see
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002078.html


-Tangent

[MagyarKhans Cham]

Dear Tangent

it takes a lot of wisdom to listen to just a few "best players" where the industry is based on "just moneymaking" and therefor reaching the biggest group possible. The nice (and sad) thing about the add on is that every player have more changes to beat teh "best players". Ofcourse we know this will be a short-lived gain for them because eventually there is no real challenge left and they move on to other games.

[Puzz3D]

Tangent,

Well that is good news that longjohn2 is back on the CA/DT team. He will certainly understand the issue. I believe that all of what I was able to test concerning morale was passed on to CA/DT. I thought the game played well with morale reduced by 8 points, but a summary letter accidentally reversed that to "raised by 8 points". I've pointed out the mistake, and was assured that all of my results were forwarded to CA/DT. Those results included estimates of at what casualty level armies tended to rout based on online play. IIRC, an 8 point reduction resulted in whole routs being possible once 65% casualties had been incured. With the current WE/MI morale level, I believe you need about 85% casualties.

One thing I noticed at the 8 point reduction was high morale units like monks fighting to about 25% strength, but low morale units like ashigaru would think about routing above 50% strength. Mid range morale units like yari cav would fight to a little less than 50% strength. It seemed like a nicly dispersed range of routing for the different morale units. All units were not crammed up into one extreme end or the other.

I don't know if my suggestion to buy units at H0 got passed on. I hope CA/DT has time to take a serious look at all of the issues that players have raised that affect both online and single player. The game is really close to achieving a nicely balanced gamplay, but it needs another serious pass.