PDA

View Full Version : project



qwertyuiop
09-30-2001, 07:20
We seem to be making duplicate programs(Vanya,polar) http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

I say we combine our efforts for the next util.

I heard some rumblings of a need for a certain more advanced strategy map editor in the other project. Any of you guys want to do it out in the open instead?

I was thinking of starting it there, but I would rather do it this way.

Tosa, can you post your requirments in this forum? Then all the other editors out there can make other suggestions.

This way the community can get exactly what it needs.

Polar
09-30-2001, 15:54
good idea T. my next project is bif reader/converter. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Swoosh So
09-30-2001, 21:14
LOL! polar good luck you will need it!!!!!!!!

qwertyuiop
09-30-2001, 21:26
LOL, talk to trousermonkey. He has been working on that for a while.

I guess he got a little buisy with all those log programs.

I count 3 log readers now.

Trousermonkey
10-01-2001, 00:55
Vanya, Polar, widda, magy's, and my (unreleased) logfile reader makes 5.
LOL, I guess you can't have enough logfile readers.
Even funnier; I was talking to T last night about my plans for yet another type of logfile reader.

hecose
10-01-2001, 07:51
If anyone is interested in creating a new strategy map editor (campaign editor) do let me know. I wrote the current one available at totalwar.org and should be able to offer some help/tips.

qwertyuiop
10-01-2001, 09:24
I would do it if there is a need... I think there is? We might just be able to upgrade your original one hecose.

Any one want to suggest any improvment/replacment for it? ... Tosa?

TosaInu
10-01-2001, 17:39
Konnichiwa,

Unless the patch changed things there, I don't see any major new option for the campaign editor. There are only some minor issues, I mailed some of those to hecose san.

The folderbrowsing could be improved (it only recognises the c drive, I have games on any drive but not c), in program help function (excellent readme could be consulted in the program).

Perhaps the app should generate more files: in the case of any Mongol campaign it could generate the custom menu folder (create the folder and copy the required BIFs and TGAs).

Position text offers victory conditions:
remove_control_40::true
remove_eliminate::true
remove_survive::true

What is the exact syntax of the 4th, conquer all of Japan?

I like Zen_Blades implementation of predefined::false so one can put text inside the startposition.txt (also thanks to Target for confirming this).

The other thing is a historical battle and historical campaign editor. This should be something (one of the features) that can handle alliances (ruled by numbers in the BDF), placements of units on a 2D map (a grid layout with (hand)painted markers to help the user to remember what his map looks like, the gridcoordinate corresponds to the coords of a unit in one of the textfiles), unitproperty editing, victory conditions and some textfilegenerators (with extensions other than .txt).

If anyone is able to make such a tool, I think it's about the same as hecoses Campaigneditor, the variable map is the only 'hard' thing I guess (it could be done by providing 3 gridtemplates, a small, medium and large. The template can be edited in a paintapplication to resemble the 2D look of the actual battlemap (where's water/wood/road/hill etc?). The edited map can then be loaded into the tool and units be placed on it. A small map could be 1000*1000 pixels (a small map has 20*20 tiles). A zoom function is a must then.

The 'pixel location' corresponds to the coordinate in the adf file.

If someone will actually make such a tool I'ld be happy to provide some humble help if needed.

Ja mata
Toda MizuTosaInu

------------------
Ja mata
Toda MizuTosaInu
Daimyo Takiyama Shi
http://www.takiyama.cjb.net

[This message has been edited by TosaInu (edited 10-01-2001).]

qwertyuiop
10-02-2001, 02:49
I a little buisy now days but I will try without any strings.

I can handle the placement and unit value stuff on the program side no problem. I'll do some research into the maps before I will tell you if I can do anything yet though since I don't know the map file format. Is any of the battle map unit placing stuff documented? Can I have a link if so.


[This message has been edited by T (edited 10-01-2001).]

TosaInu
10-02-2001, 16:19
Konnichiwa,

I'm sorry that I failed to explain what I ment. I'm sure that it will be very hard to do anything with the jjm files here.

What I ment with map is a 2D sketch from the mapdesigner on a grid. For example A LBM, GIF or TGA format. Small maps have 20*20 tiles.

I would like a fixed template with a grid of 20*20 tiles of say 1000*1000 pixels (fairly big file but we need some resolution here).
I could then load that template into paintshop and make a sketch of my map (a good way to make maps is to make a sketch first, think about how many tiles would be needed to blend a wood with a mountain, then make the map. Either way first the sketch or the jjm could be made but both are 'required').

I could then load my sketch of 1000*1000 pixels (representing my small map)into the editor and place units. There are some small txtedit details which would require a seperate window and if statements.

A big map is some 31*31 tiles, the 2D grid should thus be 1550*1550 pixels.

The pixelcoordinate corresponds to the coordinates used in the adf file.

If you can program and if you can import 3 different sizes of graphic files and if you can place units(icons) (I wish to be able to stack 2 different units in order to achive some tricks) on the graphic file and if you can translate the pixel coordinate to a value like 1000 3000 (a simple conversion might be required here say *15) then you can most likely make this tool.

Please download Doug Barnetts newMapGrid and planners http://www.totalwar.org/maps/xmods.shtml
to get an idea of what I mean here.

The other thing is that it can generate adf and bdf files (normal text). It should help with making alliances and victoryconditions which is dictated by 'easy' to confuse numbers now. All the unitdata inside the adf files should be editable. Apart from that I should be able to say which unit is listed 1st, 2nd etc in the adf file (does matter).

Again: the jjm files are not important for this tool, unless you see a way to 'extract/convert' a 2D map out of those files.




------------------
Ja mata
Toda MizuTosaInu
Daimyo Takiyama Shi

http://www.takiyama.cjb.net

TosaInu
10-02-2001, 16:22
A working tool for historical battles can be expanded to be able to make historical campaigns. As a historical campaign is a knit together of single historical battles.

qwertyuiop
10-03-2001, 09:40
I am sorry for making you explain that again, as I did get it on the first try.

This seems like the most fitting way to carry out the sketch/map thing.

The player makes there sketch, whatever size it may be. The user specifies the file, it opens the file, crops the image from the bottom right to the size of the map they want. Draws it in the map pane. Then a grid is drawn over the user made sketch.

I can easly handle that and the cell placement relitive to the pixel coordinate as long as the map is small enough to fit in the window(don't want to deal with any scrolling http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif). But I haven't studied their map text files at all http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

TosaInu
10-03-2001, 17:41
Konnichiwa,

I'am sorry that you had to read the same story again, I hope I didn't insult you?

Making sketches of any size and cropping that won't work very well. Especially water will make problems here. I said sketch, but it should be precise here and there, we don't want units inside water.

That's why there should be 3 different templates with a grid. One for each mapsize.
A small map has a grid of 20*20 tiles, a big map (I haven't counted them yet :-) 31*31 tiles.
If scrolling is a problem then you would make one tile 15 pixels width (15*31=465 pixels). That seems acceptable for most monitor settings (800*600 pixels).

A small map of 20*20 tiles has about 40,000*40,000 coordinates. Thus 1 pixel in the drawing corresponds to 40,000/20/15 = 133 coordinates. That is a reasonable resolution (It can be made a bit better as every map has a redzone perimeter of 2 tiles where units shouldn't be placed, the redzone doesn't need to be displayed in the tool, thus a small map is only 16*16 tiles. If you use say 18*18 pixels per tile a big map sketch will be a square of 27*18=486 pixels).

But you might want to place 4 units on 1 tile of 15*15 pixels. Unless you can create 'icons' of some 4*4 pixels and make a zoomfunction to enlarge one tile to make the exact positioning of a uniticon more clear (one tile could fill the entire window), it will become quite tedious to create a battle.

A powerful tool would allow the placement of some 10 units on 1 tile (also 1 men units can be used!)

I don't know wether it is possible to make, but perhaps it's possible to use a small map with 15*15 pixel tiles for the overview and use a 200*200 pixel per tile for the zoom map, the user can see either all tiles unzoomed or 1 tile zoomed). One zoomfunction and two maps.

An alternative might be a popupbox where the user can optionally enter an exact coordinate (within the range of that (sub)tile!) for a placed unit which overrides the pixelcoordinate, thus the map will become an approxiamation of what one will get. This will already be a major improvement over editing in wordpad.

I've made some maps by first drawing a sketch on a gridpaper (20*20 tiles of 1*1 cm). By counting tiles while in the mapeditor you can make a map that 'exactely' resembles the sketch. In the case of water and strategic positiong of units on hills this is very important.

Thank you very much for the good work.

------------------
Ja mata
Toda MizuTosaInu
Daimyo Takiyama Shi
http://www.takiyama.cjb.net

[This message has been edited by TosaInu (edited 10-03-2001).]

qwertyuiop
10-04-2001, 02:37
No offence taken, I simply phrased the post wrong. Hopefully this one isn't worse http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Alright:

Quote
I don't know wether it is possible to make, but perhaps it's possible to use a small map with 15*15 pixel tiles for the overview and use a 200*200 pixel per tile for the zoom map, the user can see either all tiles unzoomed or 1 tile zoomed). One zoomfunction and two maps.

An alternative might be a popupbox where the user can optionally enter an exact coordinate (within the range of that (sub)tile!) for a placed unit which overrides the pixelcoordinate, thus the map will become an approxiamation of what one will get. This will already be a major improvement over editing in wordpad.
[/QUOTE]

I like both of these ideas. The second one is a snap, first one might cause difficulties. It should be acceptable never the less. Having a big map in the first place and scrolling is probably easier. And I would perfer personally to work in a more free mode like that. However, would it be too big to allow for effective distance preception anyway? I wouldn't want to scroll a mile to get to the other side if I had an mini map alternative showing rough locations giving me the ability to zoon on them.
I just thought about somthing for making presise maps, I know you can zoom/stretch/expand detail in the mini map. Why not take a sceen shot and using that as the image.

I was wondering if you might want to make a rough sketch of the best possible UI? There are many ways to put its face together, so I think it would be most benifitial for a actuall user to make it. Ie. One might involve tabs, MDI, SDI windows and so on, then there would be many options for what kind of icons buttons and windows controls would be used, where and for what.

Time will tell

qwertyuiop
10-04-2001, 02:40
"(one tile could fill the entire window)"

hmm, I suppose I would go for a small map with small res tiles first. Get it working then add zoom cability an a option to load a mega picture for the zoom.



[This message has been edited by T (edited 10-03-2001).]

TosaInu
10-04-2001, 17:14
Konnichiwa,

Indeed, losing the overview of the map is not very nice (that's about the 'same' as txtediting here).

The second option: entering an exact location in a pop up 'could also be represented in a wysiwyg window. A 200*200 pixel picture which has the coordinates which would be in that tile. That image doesn't need to have the same colors as the map has. The terrain within one tile doesn't change that much (most tiles don't have both a river and a wood and a plain and a hill).

Yes, I've thought about the screenshot too, problem is it doesn't have a fixed heigth width ratio, so it will become hard to get a precise image. It could be that the info for the 2D map is inside the jjm file. I think it's very likely that this picture info is stored inside or generated from the jjm.

If it's stored, it might be possible to extract it from the jjm?

If it's possible to generate a precise heigth width ratio image, that is indeed a way to do it.

Recall that I talked about 3 templates with a grid for each size of maps and that you had to edit them inside a paint program. Nothing prevents the user to use a sreendump for that. One thing is 'required' to allow that flexibility: not only the template needs a grid but the tool itself should also be able to overlay a grid on the loaded image (coping a screendump of the right size into the template could overwrite the grid there unless the user uses layers).




------------------
Ja mata
Toda MizuTosaInu
Daimyo Takiyama Shi

http://www.takiyama.cjb.net