PDA

View Full Version : Pontic Heavy Cavalry



Lord Preston
07-06-2005, 23:54
Do you class them as Melee or Missile cavalry?

i have always thought of them as a weak heavy melee unit but its been argued that they are a true missile unit due to "cantibrain circle" and they can skirmish.

i used to think that they were melee, i am not sure if the name "Pontic heavy cavalry" made me thought that they were heavy cavalry. they are a decent melee unit and can beat most light cavalry but against heavy cavalry get beat by everything.

therefor i think they are missile, but are mis-seen as melee due to their name

Wishazu
07-06-2005, 23:57
i agree with missile, me and preston just had a massive discussion about this on xfire.

Cheetah
07-07-2005, 16:16
Technically missile, practically can be both.

Craterus
07-07-2005, 17:41
Erm. Both? Why is there no both option?

I use them to pepper with their javelins (theres not that many and it won't take long) and then charge them in, or flank with them.

You guys think too much in "black and white" as they say. There is sometimes a grey you know?

Wishazu
07-07-2005, 20:48
black and white has nothing to do with it, this is to do with the sets of rules that people play with online. One of the most common is 5 max missile cav and 5 max melee cav, in a couple of games recently ive played as pontus and have been accused of cheating because i took 4 cappadocians and a chariot as my melee cav and 4 pontic heavy cav as my missile cav. this poll is purely to determine what everyone thinks they should be classed as.

tibilicus
07-07-2005, 21:12
Tuff one. I should of voted misile but i voted melle because thats what i use them as. There misiles dont really do much damage andd dont last all that long. Maby put a rule not only 5 max melle cav and 5 max misile cav but 5 max skirmishing cav? Dont know if it would work though.

Wishazu
07-08-2005, 03:35
whats the difference between missile cav and skirmishing cav?

RTKCharlemagne
07-08-2005, 08:42
Pontic heavy cav should be classified as missile in my opinion...

RTKCharlemagne

tibilicus
07-08-2005, 15:06
I see misile cav as Horse archers and cataphract archers. I see skirmishing cav as Pontic heavy cav,militia cav e.c.t. The main diference is that most skirmishing cav use javalins to throw and also are ment to be used for attaking purposes to. The idea of turning on your enemy as they pursue is one tatic I love. It's not really classed like this i think i just classt it like this. As the diference between javalin armed cav and archer armed cav is genrely Javalin cav can put up a fight vs other cav. HA get wasted. Sorry if this does not make sense im dead tired.........

Lord Preston
07-08-2005, 15:29
that isn't strictly true though tib.

Cataphract Archers......... they're the best ranged cav unit that can stand up to cavalry for a bit. but jav cav can not compete with heavy cav, they gets destroyed with most HA fairing even worse.

Craterus
07-08-2005, 20:22
Depends on what you intend to use them for.

But if we are defining rules, I define them as melee cav.

Technically, when playing as Pontus there, you have 4 cappadocians and 4 heavy pontics. If it came down to it, the heavies could be used as a decisive melee force.

Lord Preston
07-09-2005, 11:27
but couldn't Cataphract Archers be used as a decisive melee force? so would you call them melee cavalry as well?


4 caps + 4 pontic heavies vs 8 legionnary cav
or vs 8 gothic will get destroyed.

im not sure how you can say pontic heavy cav can be decisive melee, they are worse than all the heavy melee cav and even some light cav can beat them.

the only way i can see them being decisive is if they are used to flank, but then ANY cavalry can be decicive if used to flank.

tibilicus
07-09-2005, 12:33
Heres what gets me. Cat archers are ment to have the same attack as catas but be able to use msisles as well. However this is not true. I remeber in an armenia campaign I was against some sacred band cav. I thinking my Cata archers would kick but put them on melee mode. However when they charged they got compleatly destroyed. Oh well. I guess it's yet another imbalanced thing in RTW.

Lord Preston
07-09-2005, 14:34
exacly, if Cata Archers the ranged cav unit with the best melee can't even beat melee cav, how can a unit that is worse at melee and use missiles be classed as melee?

Taurus
07-09-2005, 15:01
I class Pontic Heavy Cavalry as melee cavalry. I do this because of a simple reason.
Do you class urban cohorts as missile units just because they throw javelins?
I class Pontic Heavy cav as melee because in my opinion and in the way that I use them they throw a volley of javelins and then charge the enemy therefore I class them as melee.

Thanks,
- Vip3r Warrior

Lord Preston
07-09-2005, 16:34
you made the exact point that i made, but compairing a roman cohort unit to a cavalry unit is a bit dodgy.

urbans are the best hand to hand infantry with javalins as a bonus

while pontic heavy cavalry are a rubbish melee unit and do more damage with javalines.

Craterus
07-09-2005, 18:25
Well, in one way you look at it, the rule is flawed. All missile cav can be used as melee cav. Sacred band are an elite melee cav, so it's understandable theat they would beat CA's.

I suggest a new rule: 10 max cav, No more than 4 of the same unit.

tibilicus
07-09-2005, 18:49
. Sacred band are an elite melee cav, so it's understandable theat they would beat CA's.

Thats the case, but acording to unit stats it shouldn't be like that. CA have attak value of 9 and defense of 17 + there very hevily armoured cav. Sacred band i can't remember the stats for but if CA have slightly less defense than normal catas but 2 more attack points than normal catas they should then beat armoured cav such as sacred band.

NihilisticCow
07-09-2005, 20:41
Tibilicus - it's not always as simple as stats comparision where CAs have a melee attack of 9, defence 22 versus the SB cavalry with 12 attack and 18 defence. Factors such as fatigue play a huge role, which would especially be the case after cataphract archers have been firing for a while. Other issues also determine who wins the cavalry duel, such as how you charge your cavalry, terrain, nearby troops etc. Yes, with both of them being fresh, in equal numbers, unupgraded, unsupported and handled the same way, CAs would win versus SB cav more often than they lose, but this would be a close call, but this kind of situation would never really happen in a real battle.

Cataphracts are far superior melee fighters to CAs, as they have an armour piercing mace as their secondary weapon dealing a base attack of 9.

While Cataphract archers are powerful, they are expensive, which I think doesn't give Armenia an unfair advantage in these rules, as you should be able to deal with them using superior infantry numbers should they melee.

Wishazu
07-09-2005, 21:48
I class Pontic Heavy Cavalry as melee cavalry. I do this because of a simple reason.
Do you class urban cohorts as missile units just because they throw javelins?
I class Pontic Heavy cav as melee because in my opinion and in the way that I use them they throw a volley of javelins and then charge the enemy therefore I class them as melee.

Thanks,
- Vip3r Warrior

But roman legionaries will only throw one volley of pila before charging into attack if you order them to attack, Pontic cav will keep throwing volley after volley into the selected enemy unit and even when they run out of ammo will continue to skirmish untill ordered to do otherwise.

tibilicus
07-09-2005, 21:50
Thats what legions did historicly. Lob some pila, charge. Skirmishing cav would haras enemy cav then ride off. So i supose they are diferent.

Lord Preston
07-09-2005, 22:14
also urbans dont have the skirmish ability, while pontic heavy cav do

i think the pontic heavy cavalry are just a heavly armoured version of pontic light cavalry. which is a skirmisher cav classed as missile, so the heavy version should be to.

-----------
Craterus: the 10 max cav with no more than 4 of one type would not do the same as 5 melee + 5 missile.

rome could take 4 prat, 4 legion and 2 roman cav.

seleucids could take 4 cats + 4 comp (or mac, can't remember which)

mac could take 4 comp + 4 mac

but then factions like pontus only have cap cav which are good melee cav
carthage only have SB cav and 2 light cav units
germania only has Gothic.

so with the rule you said you are seriously limiting the factions playable. you might as well have a 8 max melee cav rule but then thats nothing like the 5+5 cav rule.

Taurus
07-10-2005, 16:08
But roman legionaries will only throw one volley of pila before charging into attack if you order them to attack, Pontic cav will keep throwing volley after volley into the selected enemy unit and even when they run out of ammo will continue to skirmish untill ordered to do otherwise.

Wishazu - the only reason I compared them to urbans is because I coudn't think of anything else, lol.
Sorry if I have caused much dismay among this thread but perhaps I should compare them to Velites then.
Yes mounted velites or better still cavalry auxillia.

However I still count them as melee and use them as melee units no matter how strong or weak they may be.


also urbans dont have the skirmish ability, while pontic heavy cav do

I know this to be true but as I said above ^ it's nothing to do with the urbans but I was just stating that just because they throw javelins doesn't mean they have to be classed as missile troops, (to me anyway.)

But thats just my opinion. :dizzy2:

Thanks ~:cheers:

Lord Preston
07-10-2005, 16:48
However I still count them as melee and use them as melee units no matter how strong or weak they may be.

i think this is totally flawed, why would you use a strong missile unit that is weak at melee as melee? if you were to follow this line of thought then any unit can be used and classed as melee.... no matter how good or bad they are.

i still think they are more elite missile cavalry than rubbish melee cavalry.

think of them as pharohs guard or Chosen archers, they are decent melee units and can be used as such, but could never be classed as melee.

Wishazu
07-10-2005, 20:14
well said preston

Taurus
07-11-2005, 15:33
I am very sorry but I must stick to my guns.
It is just my opinion. I just use Pontic heavy cavalry alongside the cappodician cavalry as melee units.

Pontic Heavy Cavalry are melee cavalry in my opinion ~:cheers:

Wishazu
07-13-2005, 18:14
so far the poll is pretty close with missile just edging out melee. i woulda thought the gap would be bigger from the get go but....

Craterus
07-13-2005, 21:35
Also, heavy cavalry kinda screams MELEE at you.

Oh yeah, and how are they elite missile cavalry? Call them missile cavalry if you will, but they are not elite. I can think of other mounted-missile units that outclass them.

Scythian Noble Archers
Scythian Noble Women
Scythian Horse Archers
Horse Archers
Chariot Archers
Cataphract Archers
Persian Cavalry

Arrows outclass javelins because there are many more volleys, and as we're evaluating their missile ability, you can't bring melee superiority into it.

Wishazu
07-13-2005, 22:22
they are elite for pontus, the american Delta Force are an elite unit, buy they are shit compared to the british SAS or SBS.

tibilicus
07-13-2005, 23:27
Well i suppose if you just want this argument plain and simple you could argue it can't be anything other than a missile unit. All missile units carry some form of missile be it arrow and bow or javelin. The fact remains that any mounted unit wich has some form of missile and can skirmish making the title missile cav. This argument will probably remain a matter of personal opinion. So if there was ever going to be a rule change i doubt it could ever work as there would always be a disagreement wever this is missile or melee cavalry unit. Also Craterus, It may surprise you what javelins can do. I have actually found them quite effective. Any way this poll has totaly confused me so if i comment any more it will probably come out as nonsense. Any way enough said
Tibilicus :bow: ~:cheers:

Lord Preston
07-14-2005, 00:01
Also, heavy cavalry kinda screams MELEE at you.


not really, is the pontic light cavalry now light melee cavalry because of its name? no. heavy is the more armoured version of the pontic light cavalry, which says to me it is missile.

both light and heavy versions use missiles, so because one is heavy armoured it becomes melee? not in my book.

my use of elite was in the context that i couldn't think of a better javalin cavalry unit.

please understand im not arguing for arguments sake, i used to think they were melee, and argued every point thats been posted but then i looked at it from BOTH sides and decided that the points for them being missile was much stronger.

Craterus
07-15-2005, 20:01
@ Tibilicus: I know the effect of javelins, especially before a CHARGE (which would indicate melee).

Lord Preston
07-15-2005, 22:10
with a charge (and melee attack) that is weaker than Sythian Noble Women or Sythian Noble Archers.... are they now melee as well?

Grey_Fox
07-19-2005, 13:48
I reckon a better question would be: Are Cataphract Archers melee cavalry or horse archers?

Wishazu
07-19-2005, 14:50
definately horse archers, no question.

Grey_Fox
07-19-2005, 23:43
Yes, but the melee capabilities are almost as strong as regular cataphracts.

Mongoose
07-20-2005, 00:00
Nothing can replace cataphracts. They are the ultimate Pikemen-braking-archer-crushing-cavalry-of-doom :dizzy2:

Wishazu
07-20-2005, 00:36
cataphract archers do not have the bonus` against armour that regular cats do, they can be used to bolster a cav battle by flanking but you would never use them as an actual melee cav wing, unless your only up against something like Greek light cav lol