Minor adjustments

[ScionTheWorm]

I thought we could use a thread for discussing minor adjustments to the mod. In fact I have a few ideas, which I think we should implement

1.) Smaller trees on battlemap

2.) More death in naval battles (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=49032)

3.) "Culture conversion" simulated with buildings in some way...

4.) More civilization objects (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=42405) on campaignmap (towns etc.)

5.) Another font? Don't know if this is possible... but it probably is if the letters are stored in a .tga or something, so we could just replace the letter in their unique position in that imagefile.

6.) New traits for the cultures

And I think we also should have fleets instead of single ships. Then we can't transport an army of 2000 with a fishing boat. Could be easy done with some duplicating in photoshop, along with stats.

Edit:
I also think we should "mtw" the mod as much as we can... great gameplay in that game. Slow battles down is one way to make the battles more memorable, and this is in legios plan I think.

I've also noticed a lot of small AI-mods have been made. Don't know very much about this subject, but if there is something that we could use, we could ask the creator if we could use it. For instance, I've seen mods making improvements regarding AI start formations...

More than two turns a year is also possible, but I guess this won't make the gameplay better in anyway because we have to wait a loong time for a certain building to be built or getting certain units.

[skeletor]

Chivalery's fixed "giant forest"
http://www.stratcommandcenter.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=2352&st=640

I wold allso like to see the muslim factions getting more middleeast style buildings on the campaignmap, with minaret's and mosaic coting.

-Skel-

[Incongruous]

Yes slower battles would be good, the idea of navies is great.
Just one idea/question. Would we be able to hand out titles at all?
An idea with the pope, you know in RTW they have certain positions, how about you have the pope give them out, the top prize being Holy Roman Emperor. Oh my gosh I just had an idea, how about using the three Roman families system for the three Frankik Kingdoms, you know all allied to the pope and each other, go out conquering, main goal to be, well, perhaps Holy Roman emperor, that means that the highest office available from the pope could be something else. Is this possible?, man it would be awsome, and really make this MOD stand out.

[ScionTheWorm]

actually I think that is the plan, but I think it's not to that extent... the "title" holy roman empire wasn't handed out by the pope anyway, was it? I think french, hre and lotherangia is going to be the three roman families and to some extent get directed by the pope (senate). How and how much I guess is still a unansweared question; if legio knows, I think he is the only one...

[Incongruous]

Yes I beleive the pope did hand it out. But you could gain it by conquering the papacy.
Also, the colours in RTW are to bloody phsycadelic. Could we darken and dim things, that would make it really cool. Also, are you going to voice MOD.

[ScionTheWorm]

a voicemod takes a lot of time, and nobody on the team has actually planned to do this I think. the original ones wouldn't fit at all I think, so I would reather cut the voices if it was up to me.

1.) darken and dim things up is a part of the plan

2.) I also think we should slightly enhance or change the colors in the campaignmap tiles - just to give it our own feelin. we could either give it some more colors and contrasts, or we could desaturate it. it would only be very slight ajustments, but I think it would be great. could "dirt" things up a little. would be very little work except for the experimenting-part. got the idea from eb. don't know if they've done it, but I think it looked to me like they have.

for instance, think dark greyish north sea.

3.) by the way, I also wish to cut the time limit in battles, and I think you all agree....

4.) and I think we should do something about the attack settlement battles, they just aren't memorable enough. huger cites, and maybe harder to get in (stronger walls). bigger forts.

5.) Smaller campaignmap characters? :yes:

[Incongruous]

Yeah those are great ideas.
Aren't you guys going to increase the scale of the map i.e, same circumfrance but bigger,take more time to travel.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

You shouldn't take more time to travel - take less! It already takes forever to go anywhere in RTW. If you increase the size, increase travel distances, or something!

[ScionTheWorm]

You shouldn't take more time to travel - take less! It already takes forever to go anywhere in RTW. If you increase the size, increase travel distances, or something!
I agree. Huger map could be cool, but then I would vote for minimum double distances. Boats will have increased distances, and longboats most of them all...

By the way I think we should make the mod for BI. We won't manage to release this before months after it comes out anyway, so I don't think this is an obstacle. Just my opinion as I think there will be lot of upgrades and new features...

[Incongruous]

Yeah thats a great idea, they'll utilise religion in the same way they did for Medieval (also, you will be able to revert back to your previous pagan religion if you think it will bring you victory), plus the new horde option which will be good for the Steppe nations. Plus all the other cool new additions such as civil wars i.e Me general tink I better dan u, so me fight u and become emperor, hehe.

Huh! just realised, I'm a f**kin member, Partey!
:balloon2: :charge: ~:cheers: :clown: :jester: :crowngrin: :guitarist: :hippy: :joker: :laugh: :drummer: :balloon3: :barrel: :barrel: :barrel: :barrel: :rtwyes: :medievalcheers: :barrel:

Oh, and umm, am I allowed to use the sig ~D

[ScionTheWorm]

Congrats! :barrel: :barrel: :barrel: :barrel: :barrel: :barrel: :barrel: :barrel: :barrel: :barrel: :barrel: :barrel:

of course you may use the sig.

is it really that much mtw-stuff in BI? ~D ~D

[Incongruous]

Yeah there really is, check out the link:

http://www.totalwar.com/community/rtwbi.htm

[ScionTheWorm]

Looking at "New Game Features"

"Barbarian Hordes - A barbarian faction can flee en masse from an attacker and take its entire people in search of a new homeland. When a faction loses its last settlement the entire population can move as a series of horde armies. If - and when - the faction manage to conquer a new homeland region, the people can again settle and begin life anew. While a faction is ‘on the road’ it can’t recruit new units other than mercenaries, but it doesn’t pay any upkeep on its armies. Hordes are a ‘get out of jail’ card for some factions facing defeat - or they may just get hacked to pieces as they run! "

I don't know what we could use this for, but it sounds cool...

"New Units - New factions means new units! In fact, almost every unit in BI is new. This means that there are plenty of new tactical tricks to discover, strengths to play up, and weaknesses to exploit! Every faction in the game has a ‘signature’ unit that is unique to them, such as the axe-throwing Francisca Heerbann of the Franks to the ultra-heavy Sassanid Clibinarii cavalry. Even apparently familiar units have been revised."

Could be nice, but i guess we have a nice unit list when this comes out anyway...

"New Special Abilities - Some units in the game have new special abilities. The Shield Wall allows barbarian elites to ‘lock’ themselves into a defensive stance and withstand frontal attacks. The Schiltron is a defensive ‘hedgehog’ formation for spear-armed troops - great for withstanding cavalry, but very vulnerable to missile fire. Swimming allows light troops to cross rivers and flank defenders who think they are safe at one end of a bridge or ford!"

No idea... swimming across rivers sounds nice

"A modified technology tree - allows barbarians to build and expand larger settlements. It also includes new buildings to reflect the changed importance given to religion at this time in history. "

Nice with larger settlements...

"A new campaign map - Europe and the Empire have changed after 350 years of Roman rule since the end of the main Rome: Total War campaign. The new map reflects the shifts in population and wealth that have gone on."

No importance...

"Religion - is now an important factor. Christianity has become the dominant religion of the Empire, but it’s your choice whether or not to revert to paganism in the hope that this will bring victory. Barbarian factions can convert, opening up new parts of the technology tree in the process."

~:cheers: ~:cheers: ~:cheers:

"Generals - can now be recruited as well as adopted into the family. There are also new vices and virtues as well as ancillary characters for generals’ retinues.
~:cheers:

"Rebellions - can now flare up into full-fledged civil wars. Your generals can decide that they would make better kings or emperors than the current rulers and take matters into their own hands!"
yes!!



but I guess this will screw up the pope-thing...

"And goodbye to the Senate! That old favourite enemy of Rome: Total War players everywhere is now a toothless talking shop with no power over the fate of the Empire. Instead: worry about the Huns! "

I think it sounds really good.... and the graphics is made more to the time we're in, meaning we hopefully don't have to make new graphics for for instance "faction leader dies"

[Incongruous]

Yeah, the pope thing sucks, but who cares about that, what real power did the pope have then, dealing with newly converted hulking Germanics.

"New Special Abilities - Some units in the game have new special abilities. The Shield Wall allows barbarian elites to ‘lock’ themselves into a defensive stance and withstand frontal attacks. The Schiltron is a defensive ‘hedgehog’ formation for spear-armed troops - great for withstanding cavalry, but very vulnerable to missile fire."
thats great as well, we can now have the shield wall.

[ScionTheWorm]

I like the idea, the pope thing is not crucial...

would love to hear others opinion on this. we could possibly be on of the first major mods for BI

[Incongruous]

Yes winning over fans is crucial, just look at what happened to RTR, they are huge!
Can anyone create a website where we can publish info like faction desriptions, and overview and screenies.

[Incongruous]

Ok, I really think we should use a four seasons system.
But would it be kind of odd i.e its autumn but its like summer or its like winter.
Or is there a way to make sure that weather patterns change for the seasons, e.g in summer there is hardly any rain, but in autumn there is a bit more and maybe if we have a somone who is willing some new autumn looking trees.

Also, just a question, what siftware can I get to start skinning?

[ScionTheWorm]

get trials for adobe photoshop (www.adobe.com) and 3d studio max 7. they will expire in 30 days so that sucks.... it's a problem for a lot of us

about the 4 season system, I think it's a good idea, but it may affect gameplay as it takes twice as much time to get to a certain year (and technology).

[Incongruous]

Yes but it will make conquering so much better, and we can edit the biuld times, I'm starting to fiddle around with that.

Also, this is just a little thing, change the term recriut to call-to-arms. Then it would justify the fact that a unit will only take a turn to biuld. Because to train a new night it would take years.
Oh and, with the new Feudal type societies that srang up is there a way of increasing the up-keep of a unit after a certain amount of time, this would represent the feudal obligations of men to only owe their Lord a certain amount of service time a year. This should be used on the units that were raised in time of war, the elite standing army-core would have a sustained upkeep, if thats possible.

[ScionTheWorm]

Yes but it will make conquering so much better, and we can edit the biuld times, I'm starting to fiddle around with that.

Also, this is just a little thing, change the term recriut to call-to-arms. Then it would justify the fact that a unit will only take a turn to biuld. Because to train a new night it would take years.
Oh and, with the new Feudal type societies that srang up is there a way of increasing the up-keep of a unit after a certain amount of time, this would represent the feudal obligations of men to only owe their Lord a certain amount of service time a year. This should be used on the units that were raised in time of war, the elite standing army-core would have a sustained upkeep, if thats possible.

call-to-arms: good point!
increasing after certain amount of time: don't think so..

very good you're fiddling around, just keep in mind that we haven't taken a decision. and that BI might look different, allthough I doubt it.

[skeletor]

The Call-to-arms idea is great, but i think that have to be applied to all Recrouting.. .Anyway i think call to arms wold be more accurat for all factions.

Allso having 4 seasons wold make the weather play a mutch more vital role. I'm not sure if you can change the weatherconditions for Spring and fall (but in some mods, there is alot more bad weather...RTR), but in the northern regions you could have snow for 3 of the four seasons, making it hard for non viking factions to conquer the northern regions other then in summertime(unit's with snow bonus) same applies to the eastern factions with their desert bonus.

-Skel-

[Incongruous]

Glad you liked the Call-To-Arms idea.
Also, it seems stupid to be able to recriut the better troop types afer you have biult the right barracks, so is there anyway to make it that you have to have certain tecs before you can get a unit. e.g the highest level armourer befroe you can get heavily armoured knights.
Now that we have decided on the Call-To-Arms thing, the term barracks deos not fit, what could replace it?

[skeletor]

I think we must have the barracs in, so that you have a facility to train the unit's that you want to call to arms.

Allso, i think you could add any building as a requirement for training unit's, allso new modded buildings. The problem here is to get the AI to build those. If the building doesn't directly benifit the AI, they won't build it, and then not being able to get the elite unit's. Then you get the problem with AI stacks of crappy troops.

Thus having a higher level of Weaponsmith as a requirement for heavyer unit's shouldnt be a problem..

-Skel-

[Incongruous]

No I meant keep the barracks concept but scrap the name, I beleive we could call it the Wepantake or the Hundred, this is the basic subdivision of the region/shire and remained the theoretical basis of Millitary organisation for the Englisc up until the succesion of the Angevins.

[skeletor]

Ok, but here the game comprimise comes in. If were not making unique buildings for all factions, the name must apply for everyone from the Scots to the Abbasids. It might be possible to add uniqe names for the diffrent cultures, and if so i agree that it wold give the you a bether feel of the culture. I haven't edited any buildings yet, so i'm not really sure what's possible, and how mutch work it is.

But it wold be really cool having all native names for cultures too. (thus thearabic names wold be a pain.)

-Skel-

[ScionTheWorm]

I've never liked the "barracks" concept, so the option is to abstract it.
but then it should be done with everything (bowmaker, horsefarmer) for all factions. If you're able to coming up with a complete concept here, it might be a thing to consider

[skeletor]

I'll start looking at viking "trainingfields" right away... ~:)

I'll allso see if i can find some for the Muslims..

-Skel-

[Incongruous]

Well, we could use Hundred's Wepantake for the Vikings and Englisc.
For the more Feudilised Frankish nations you could use the name of the place that all the armed men in a district would meet. Something like a manor or castle.

[Ranika]

Gaels usually trained in open fields, forests, and in swamps; local troops were generally just limited by the local flath(chief)'s armoury. They should probably be limited based on some armoury structure or weapon/armor smiths (or both). However, there were formalized combat schools (like a martial arts school), but they were generally patronned only by the very wealthy, and were usually intended more as a personal combat type of thing, though usually Ridire and other high position retainers were sent to them, but it may be a superflous inclusion.

[ScionTheWorm]

Okay this is actually a friggin great idea. Remember we'll need 3(?) levels for each faction/culture.

Bopa: please give some reasons for your choices or some kind of description.

[Incongruous]

Do you mean for the name? Ok.

The Hundred was the basic subdivision of a region or shire , whereby all, men and weapons in that shire were accounted for in order to deduce the overall strenght available from that shire. When the Vikings conquered much of what was to become Alfred's Kingdom of the Englisc, they introduced the Wepantake, a more war like method whereby a local Viking lord could asess his lands and the quality of troops he was able to recriut for campaign. If the result was seen as inferior to what it should be, he would create the Wepantake, whereby at a time of conflict, arms and armour would be readily supplied to his local militia, resulting in a far better fighting force.
When the Dabelaw was established most Earldormen (Englisc nobility) adopted this system.

From this Hundred's Wepantake, one could Call-To-Arms Armoured Fyrd, but would also have to have say the third or second rung armoury and smithy.
However, if we do start in 880 all the newly incorperated areas of the Kingdom of the Englisc should have these Wepantake's.

Ok so here we go for rungs.

Long Hall.
This is where a Thegn will call upon his local militia from his own villiage.
The Militia Called-To-Arms here is of low quality, these men were raised only a few weeks in order to fend off raiders. They are poor soldiers and if taken on prolonged campaigns will cause financial difficulty.

District Hall.
District halls are used only when a number of villiages and towns that make up a district are attacked. This allows for greater man power to focused onone particular area, where there has been a rather more severe raid than usual. The men that are brought here can expect to be away from home longer than usual, and have therefore taken messures to ensure that the harvest goes smoothly. For a time. These men cannot be kept away from thier homes for too long, otherwise agriculture would suffer badly.

Hundred's Hall.
Hundred Halls are a place where the local Earldorman can summon enough troops to lauch an effective raid into enemy territoy. This biulding's sole purpose is to allow organised yet small offensive manouveres. As the Thegns know that a Call-To-Arms at a Hundred's Hall means a prolonged Raid, they have taken the steps to allow their Militias to be away from home for a few months. The Militia that arrive here are still no match for thier Viking adversaries, but they are alot less costly when taken on prolonged campaignes. But these places do allow the Call-To-Arms of Thegns.

Hundred's Wepantake.
This place allows for the same scale raides as the Hundred's Hall did, but with an added bonus. The men that are Called up here can be aquiped with armour and good quality weapons. Meaning that a raid could be twice as effective as before. To allow for Arnoured Fyrdmen one must have biult second (or maybe it should be third) rung armourer and smithy.

Shires Wepantake.
When a group of Earldormen wish to carry out a large scale raid, possibly even an occupation in enemy territory they meet here at the Shire Wepantake. Troops here are expected to be away for a long time and therfore it wont damage the economy too much if they are taken on a large camapaign. Here also the local Earl could also Call-To-Arms the more elite men of society, begining with his retinue of Comites (we really need some more Englisc units, these men are part of the Earls own family, and on the field would number around twenty) and his Housecarls, then lower Freemen, such as Twelfhynde (lesser form of Thegns militarily), who in turn would bring their Coerls, (these should be a better form of armoured Fyrd and have better morale). This should be the first rung hat allows the Call-To-Arms of any heavy cavalry, as only Earls and kings would have heavy cavalry (probably mounted Thegns).

Burgh.
If the King wishes to launch a large campaign against his adversaries, this is where the Earls bring their men to. A Burgh is the base of operations for any major offensive, here also the King would bring his personal army core of proffesionals, such as his two divisions of Housecarls, axemen and swordsmen and his Butscarls. Perhaps the king might even have his own mounted Thegns and Housecarls brought here. The army that is formed here can expect to be away from home for almost a year at times, meaning that the fyrd and other peasent millitias can safley leave their crops for a long amount of time.


Hope this is decent ~D

[Ranika]

Some Gaelic terminology. These aren't meant to show progression, necessarily, except the Armoury (as it's the only one I could find a clear progression), but more suggestions of names -

Smiths -
Gobann - A smith
Gobannàsuing - 'Apparatus' (Weapon) Smith
Gobannmhor - A 'great' smith (as described of the smith of the Ui Niell)
Gobannarra - A 'noble' smith; actually just worked on weapons and armor for retainers of aristocracy and the aristocracy itself

Armoury -
Aibhane - A very basic local armoury (would produce most basic soldiers; axes, spears, padded armor, that kind of thing would be available)
Flaioidhbhane - A large armoury, with an accounting office attached (would be needed before any sword units, perhaps maces for the Irish)
Ardbhane-schaiel - An armoury that also carries metal armor, a large accounting office, and probably some dormitories for guards

Schools (Don't necessarily need these, but Ridire and the like were usually encouraged or forced to attend them before serving as retainers) -
Ogihllceallacaine - Essentially meaning 'School of Martial Things'
Ogihlldubb - The 'Black School', a common nickname for the place where aristocracy and champions would train, it first appears as the name of the school where the hero Niall Noigiallach went in what are now the Aran Islands, and appears to be the name of the local school
Ogihllruad - The 'Red School', again, more of a nickname, as it was the name of only three schools, supposedly all founded by the same tighearnba (master of combat), in Ulster. However, some other schools were called 'red schools' as nicknames.
Ogihlltrotta - Means a 'School of Combat', rather literal.

[Incongruous]

Ok huge idea, and it can work.
Why don't we create rivers that can actually be travveled down. This would add a huge amount of tactical depth to the game. If we increased the size of the map (I don't know how to put this, but, I mean don't add on extra land and provonces I mean just make the existing one bigger) it will make thus work really well.
This is just a concept, but it can be done.

[GoreBag]

I think rivers as a means of transportation are a great idea.

[Incongruous]

Yeah you could launch raids and attack by using them, how cool would that be!

[ScionTheWorm]

well we would have to use some kind of roads, but I guess we want to use them for what they already are. We could maybe change "paved roads" or something to river graphics, and then just make it unbuildable. That's the only option as I see it, though it may be totally impossible for all I know.

Edit:
Oh Another option is to make water and specific water wessels as...? Small boats which can transport them...

I like the idea too, but then it has to work as well as intended

[Incongruous]

No, no. The guys in the Blue Lotus team are actually creating rivers using I guess the sea tiles i.e its just like any other area of water, meaning that you could biuld a navy and send it down the thames and attack London.

Re-read this post. Sorry I was just so exited.

[ScionTheWorm]

rivers are buildable, can be sent down other rivers and attack towns??? ~:confused:

You mean this will be water rivers with boats as on sea?

[Incongruous]

Yeeaah, awsome huh?
And I'm fairly sure it can be don if we increase the width and breadth of the map.

Re-read the first post I mad to you.

[ScionTheWorm]

I'm sure it can, the issues as I see it is how it affects gameplay. Armies will have to be able to travel far distances, and it may hug up the performance. Anyway a huge huge map would make the battle terrain relativity more realistic, as well as we could use rivers, etc. This isn't done over night though, it should keep legio busy for some years.

Edit:
I thought you meant abstracting more, like having rivers like roads - simulating that use of smaller boats etc over half an year would increase the speed of the army.

[Incongruous]

Legio was talking about expanding the width and breadth of the map before he left.
Anyways when is he going to be back?

[Incongruous]

About the long travel times, it won't matter if we use a four turns system, you could travel a long way in one year compared to what you can in RTW.
Just a side note, did you know that it might be possible to have seven turns a year, then maybe even twelve, how cool would twelve turns a year be huh?

[ScionTheWorm]

it would be cool if you want to spend a friggin year to play a campaign. oh in 69 turns my trader is complete, yuuuhuu ~:cheers: ~:cheers:
no really, do you really want to wait that long for progress? at least we would have to tweak the ai...
we would have to make the ai very laidback so not one faction dominate the whole map after 2 years. i can't see how anything more than 4 turns would do us good, but it's up for debate

[Incongruous]

No I just put that info in as a side note, something of interest.
Just another thing of interest, go look at the pics in the Sengoiku Jedei forum, those colours are what we really want.

[skeletor]

Do you mean for the forum skin?

-Skel-

[Incongruous]

No there is a thread called Screenshots.

[Incongruous]

List of adjustments.

1. The call to arms system.
2.rivers idea.
3.More realistic colours.
4.Western cavlry units should have reduced movement points to simulate the fact that they needed a vast supply train.
5. If possible for steppe cavalry like Magyar units, increase the amount of scorched earth they cause to represent the fact that they would live soley off the land.

[ScionTheWorm]

japanese theme?

User CP -> Edit Options -> Forum Skin -> "The Guild"

would me more of an medieval theme...

[Incongruous]

No, look at the screenshots thread, then look at the colours of the units and terrain, thats the kind of colouring we need.

[ScionTheWorm]

I strongly disagree, we shouldnt make tiles gray and dark. I really don't understand what you mean here, is gray and dark more realistic? I also think those are taken at night

[King Ragnar]

I also dissagree we are making a mod about dark age peroid not medieval Japan. Those units are too bright i thought we were aiming for a grim and dark motif.

[ScionTheWorm]

Okay to concretisize Bopa's ideas, and adding some thoughts, here is a suggestion to be discussed. It will impact everything a lot, so it may destroy both gameplay and performance, or make the game very enjoyable and the mod unique.

Changes:
- Thrice as huge map as intended
- Double/triple army movement speed
- 2, 4 or even 6 turs a year (holy shit)
- Rivers to be travelled on

I think we could just resize the map, if not it's going to be a lot of work. If resizing is possible, we can use what's already been made, just adding some more details.

Possible drawbacks:
- Lot of work
- Hardcoded limitations and performance issues
- Waiting a long time for new technology
- What the hell to do with build times??
- AI going berserk

Possible gaining:
- Attack by rivers
- More realistic if done proper
- More strategic depth
- More realistic agents. Could be 0 training time, sending out dozens of spies would be neccessary for keeping track with one specific area.
- More islands would be possible, more accurate terrain. (maybe not very much gaining here, but..)

And more I'm sure of. Could also add more provinces if the limit isn't reached, allthough that may change with the BI release. I'm most concerned about the AI really.

Is this a good or a bad idea? I have no idea.

[King Ragnar]

Well the things you listed about hardcoded and AI, if we change to BI, this mayhave changed, as the ai and hardcore limits are to be improved for modding capabilities. But who knows yet what will happen or if we will change to BI.

[skeletor]

It wold be a good idea, but after starting a Seleucid RTR campaign the other day, i think it would be kind of dull. Allso, making a more detaild campaignmap is a pain, you allmost have to change it pixle by pixle.

River attack's on the other hand, might be possible to add with making "water" code under the river, but then you can't have any crossings in that area. But making waterways to london, paris, and maybe up the dniepr might be possible. I allso think that the games can be kind of boring, when you conquer the hole world before getting any decent unit's.

But i'm defenently up for alot, maybe dubble traveldistances for armys, so that you don't have to micromanage so many single unit's, and army's can suddenly appear next to your city's. Specfially boats should be able to travel alot futher.

-Skel-

[ScionTheWorm]

I totally share your dullness-experience. But remember, we would in drastic ways increase movement speed. Tech tree an obstacle when adding more turns - I can't see any way around this when it come to boring campaigning. Allthough this would be the case in a lot of other strategy games, you would have to do a lot of turns before progressing in units etc. But I have doubts regarding this begin a success.

[Incongruous]

All those ideas are cool, and of course there are problems.

The biuld thing, well biuldings didn't take that long to make in the Late Dark ages and Early Medieval era. The only biuldings that took years were Castles and Cathedrals.
So it could work like this,
Most biuldings can take maybe a year and half to a couple of years to make, but them things like castles/Burhs and cathedrals (and their respective opposites in all cultures) could then take many years. Meaning that super-ultra-uber armies wouldn't appear until the late game (1000) which is more historically accurate and better for gameplay.

As for unit travel points, just increase them.
Rivers, mm, true u cannot biuld bridges across them, but is there anyway to fuse the seatiles that one would use for biulding these traversable rivers and the conventional rivers as in RTW?

I beleiev that we can get this right, and when we do, what a MOD!
That would be the kind of TW game I'd wanna have.

[ScionTheWorm]

I think this could be a historical acurracy destroying the gameplay - let's do some calculations.

843 - 1000: 157 years

2 turns a year:
843 - 1000: 314 turns

4 turns a year:
843 - 1000: 624 turns

6 turns a year:
843 - 1000: 938 turns

Building taking 10 years:
20 turns
40 turns
60 turns

and so on...

[Incongruous]

I reckon four turns would be good. I beleiev that most people would think that decent and a good idea.

[ScionTheWorm]

three turns could also work - two summers and one winter

[GoreBag]

If it's any help, I tried to get the four-turns-per-year script to run...and it didn't. In fact, it made every year one turn, and it was always winter.

As to the problem with bridges and crossings in rivers: would it be possible to create a kind of "shallows" area which land and sea units could use? Age of Empires 2 had one that worked out very well.

[Incongruous]

I beleiev that someone had succefuly used four seasons a year.
Three turns, yeah that could simulate the campaining season, cool.

[GoreBag]

Oh, yeah, plenty of people have done it, but I, for some, reason can't get it to work. This is just an indication that it may not work for everyone for whatever reason if the current mode of multiple season selection is kept.

[ScionTheWorm]

I don't think it's a technical issue, I always look at it as if others can do it, it's no problem - except for the consumation of time.

Three turns is kindof decent, but it results in slow progress in the tech department. I think that's too bad, as 100 battles with no changes in units and tech will be boring I think. Don't you bopa? You'll have conquered the whole friggin world before getting one new unit if you're really good. (okay some overdrama here as it's only one more turn, it's just how I would feel playing the game)

[Incongruous]

Come on dude, three or four turns would be great, and not having super uber units at the start would make it more challenging for a non-Viking/Magyar player, and that in turn simulates the historical situation. It would be great.

[ScionTheWorm]

I'm not that negative to your suggestion, I'm just afraid it's going to be A fukin long time to wait for some rewards

[Incongruous]

AAAWWWW! Come on man, it would be fun, anyway only the hardcores will download it, because the casuals are afraid of MODS ~:)

[GoreBag]

2 turns just doesn't do it for me. I want my family members to live a little longer, anyway. Besides, there's no way I would stop at two or three kids if I was king and had a whole extra breeding season. It'll help regulate travel times, allow for more recruitment on a per-year basis, and allows for more flexibility for buildings, since the time scale is being increased. There's really no reason, in theory, that it shouldn't be done...as long as it doesn't end up like an RTR snorefest.

[Incongruous]

Hey! Whats wrong with RTR?

[GoreBag]

Booooooring! I thought it would be fun, at least better than RTW, but I ended up getting so bored with it that I just got rid of it and went back to Mundus Magna.

[Incongruous]

I thought it as very realistic and fun.

[ScionTheWorm]

what did you think was wrong?

I loved playing it

[GoreBag]

Like I said, it was too boring, and the new units I saw were kind of silly (Caledonian Highlanders?). Everything took so damn long to build, for one, except the muster field (?). I grew too frustrated with the boredom to keep playing. I tried to implement the four-turns-per-year script, thinking that I could just take my time, of course, it didn't work.

[Randarkmaan]

Ah, since when did making the year in RTW longer make the buildings take longer time to build? Last time I checked buildings take TURNS to make and not YEARS same with units, I dont think it would hurt to split the year into 4 turns. I also think that when figthing in snow all units and especially cavalry should have a negative combat modifier because of the difficult terrain, those who inhabit some of the more "snowier" places of the world should have a lesser negative combat modifier than other troops.

[GoreBag]

Ah, since when did making the year in RTW longer make the buildings take longer time to build? Last time I checked buildings take TURNS to make and not YEARS same with units, I dont think it would hurt to split the year into 4 turns.

You really have no idea what I'm talking about.

[Randarkmaan]

I guess not...

[Incongruous]

Ok four turns a year would be cool, cause' in winter if this is possible we could decrrease movement5 points, infact we could do that for all seasons, fastest in summer and that sort of thing.

[Jarlabanke]

Travel in winter time would have been faster in those days compared to summer time, as snow makes it possible to use skis and sledges, further more you can cross smaller rivers and lakes without boats etc.

[skeletor]

If it's possible to ajust individual traveltime in diffrent seasons, the birkebeiners or all norse unit's should have a bonu on snow. Other factions, who usually can't use skis should have a pennalty. In desert on the other hand, vikings should have a very short movement.

If any of the bether coders could see try to find out what is possible and not, we could take the discussion then.

-Skel-

[ScionTheWorm]

I really doubt it

In vanilla:
1.) Was there different movmentspeed on different ground?
2.) Different speed on different units besides pure horse army vs with infantry.
3.) Different movement in the seasons?

If not, I would bet a lot of money on impossible.

[GoreBag]

I really doubt it

In vanilla:
1.) Was there different movmentspeed on different ground?
2.) Different speed on different units besides pure horse army vs with infantry.
3.) Different movement in the seasons?

If not, I would bet a lot of money on impossible.

1) Yes. Roads come to mind. ~;p
2) Siege engines were slower than infantry.
3) No, but why not?

[ScionTheWorm]

1) Yes. Roads come to mind. ~;p
Would have to assign road-attribute to the whole map in the summer, and let them disappear at winter?



2) Siege engines were slower than infantry.
ok



3) No, but why not?
If not, there's probably no place to set this attribute or stat.

[GoreBag]

Would have to assign road-attribute to the whole map in the summer, and let them disappear at winter?

Or worsen. It is possible, I assume, to create roads that actually force a penalty upon the user.

[ScionTheWorm]

Or worsen. It is possible, I assume, to create roads that actually force a penalty upon the user.
okay I know that snow (arctic) is a unique ground type. It may be possible to assign some type of penalty for this.

I don't think it's possible to assign different movement speeds for some units. besides, I don't think it's relevant; in the game you probably won't need this speed as your army won't be totally made up of birkebeiners. and for the movement speed increase at winter because they're skiing; an army of thousands skiing? I can't see that this happened. and I don't know how much snow it was at this time, but at least it isn't that deep in our time all over northern europe the whole winter. I think only a fraction of the year and the continent should be penalized greatly. the same thing for the rivers.. they don't freeze easily.

and if I'm not heavily wrong, this is not the time of the little ice age (17th century I think)? how was the overall climate in compare with our time?

[GoreBag]

Well, it's said that it was warmer in the middle ages; it was one of the reasons that Greenland was as habitable as it was. As it became colder, the settlers there began to dwindle.

Do the Birkebeiners serve a purpose beyond that of a skiing infantry? If not, they wouldn't be that useful at all once the Nordic player decides to go south with his warriors. Were they supposed to move more quickly on the battlefield? Now that I think about it...why are they being included?

[Incongruous]

Yeah, good point, why the hell are they in the game?

As for travel time in winter, did it cross anyones mind why the campaigning seasion was after winter? Because of the increased rain which ruined roads, not because of snow. Armies on the march never went "off-road" they always stuck to roads (which were often mud) because it deosn't matter what time of year it is, unroded ground is always hard to cross.
As for cavalry, they should have smaller movement speed than infantry units, because of the massive supply train which accompanied them 9this is only for the western cavalry units).

[ScionTheWorm]

ok from another thread this, but if the magyars were that few, maybe they should be limited for reqruitment and not be able to produce numerous armies as some other factions might. this could be done either with mercenaries (spawning time) or loong building time as I see it.

birkebeiners: I think these are very limited mercenaries(?). Maybe they should be restricted to norway rebel states. I really think they should be included, but how restricted and powerful is another issue.

About movement speed I think bopa has some really good points

[Jarlabanke]

Bopa my suggestion pretty much only concerns the North as the roads here were almost nonexsistant back then. Your arguments are sound when talking about the continent, but no matter how ruined the roads are by the autumn rains it will matter very little with a good amount of snow on them and with the ground frozen solid, in which case they and the surrounding landscape will be much easier travelled by people wearing skis compared to someone travelling it in the summertime. I believe there's actually a reference to the horror of travelling southern Sweden on foot in Heimskringla.
On the birkebeiners I've only seen them menioned once or twice in Heimskringla and can't really see why they should be give so much attention, they seem no different from any of the other small communities that were spread across Scandinavia at the time.

[Incongruous]

Dude, be serious, nearly every army if not all would use the roads, what army other than maybe a Viking one travelled cross country on ski's.

As for Magyars, yes that a good idea, since Magyars weren't leveid, they were trained from the age of four to ride a horse so could have long biuld times. But that should only be for Magyars cavalry as more often then not their infantry was mostly made up of conquered people. Except for the palace guards, it seems that these men were made up of the finest warriors the Magyars had.

[Jarlabanke]

Dude, be serious, nearly every army if not all would use the roads, what army other than maybe a Viking one travelled cross country on ski's.


Did you even read what I wrote?

[ScionTheWorm]

Did you even read what I wrote?
~D I don't think he did

Actually I see no point in investing a lot of wirk into this movement issue. It's a detail I think. Probably won't work anyway, besides there's so many different views on it that it will turn out wrong whatever we decide.