Interactive History III: 'Antiochus' Dilemma'

[Kraxis]

This is the third installment of my rather successful (if I may say so ~D) series begun over at the .com (I was Tarrak there).

So if you know the series you need not read the next paragraph.

The Interactive Histories are basically me making up history as best I can. I set the parameters and the action by you, the reader desides for me where we are to go. At the end of each 'chapter' I give a number of choices, and the rule is it is the first poster that will get the decision, even if it seems foolish (of course I will try to make sure people don't sabotage it), so you better be fast.
So far I have done two on Hannibal. The first was set at the end of the Battle of Cannae and we ended up winning the Second Punic War against Rome is a series of grueling and hard battles where the tactical brilliance of Hannibal won the day time and again, but we had our setbacks, such as when the Gauls abandoned our cause due to maltreatment and our own troops nearly comitting mutiny because they were pushed too far into winter with no rest.
The second I dubbed 'Hannibal's Fate', and it was a much tougher set, both on me and the readers, in fact I never managed to finish it. It started out withthe hypothetical situation that Hannibal had managed to win at Zama (the Roman cavalry didn't return to hit the carthie infantry in the back and the elephants had somehow managed to not get spooked). While Carthage was seriously on the defensive we managed to settle the score good by kicking out the Romans. Scipio Africanus, already unpopular in the Senate couldn't hold on in the face of two rather serious defeats and was pulled home with his remaining forces. Masinissa was forced to join the Carthie side again and it looked like Hannibal was to set foot in Spain once more.

So the background and the rule (yes it is singular) is set.
Here we go:

Antiochus' Dilemma:

It is 191BC, and you are the high king of the Seleucid Empire, Antiochus III, later to be called the Great, but we haven't gotten to that yet.
The political situation in Greece has promted you to land forces there in the attempt to sieze or at least subjugate (or as you would prefer to call it, 'liberate') the area in the face of Roman pressure and ambitions there. You had hoped for help from the Aetolian League and from Phillip V of Macedon, but as it has turned out Phillip has been scared shitless after Cynoscephalae (197BC) and has duly chosen to stay well out of this encounter, while the Aetolians have sent you support mainly in the form of verbal encouragement and a few lighter troops.
You yourself was perhaps a bit too rash in getting into this business as you could only manage to bring 18,000 troops and a handful of elephants, some of these have even been spread out into garrisons and the few Aetolians have not made up for this.

The Romans already didn't like you very much, being scared of your growing power in the east, so naturally they have reacted with great strength, as is their custom. A force of some 20,000 infantry, 2,000 cavalry and 15 elephants was crossed over from Brundisium, led by Manius Glabrio with the two famous Romans, Marcus Porcius Cato and Valerius Flaccus as tribunes. You have been caught with your pants by your ankles and several garrisons are lost, you have at your disposal only 10,000 infantry, 500 cavalry and 6 elephants.

As you sit in the house your have taken as your residence while in Greece you ponder the situation. The Romans are advancing fast and have even taken the Tempe pass to the north with an advance party, they outnumber you greatly and they have a serious advantage in cavalry. It looks bleak. Your political advisor Kassandros, a haughty but brave man gives his oppinion on the matter, "Bassileus, we have with us part of the Argyraspids, we are stronger than the Romans. They are not up to the pike, Pyrrhus showed that much. I say, meet them in battle in Boiotia before they get too clos for us to form up properly."
Just then Hannibal, son of Hamilcar, your advisor and tutor in military matters begins to speak up: "Sire, while Kassandros is right that your troops are better on a basis of one to one, it doesn't help much. The Romans deploy in much less dense formations and will thus easily outflank our formation in any normal battle. Either we should pull out of Greece alltogether or we should face the Romans at Thermopylae, the only pass left to us. If we are to go there we should post strong guards at the paths leading round the pass, so as not to suffer the result of Leonidas and his Spartans."
From behind Hannibal your aged strategos, Lysias, also gives his advise. "I agree with Hannibal, Thermopylae is the best shot we have here." He said looking at Kassandros. "But we are already far too few in numbers to deplete the main forces by putting them in the obscure paths. The wall has been lenghtened since the Persian Wars and we have preciously few skirmishers. I say let some Aetolians guard the pass, while we deal with the Romans."
The choice was not easy, for while Kassandros' advise sounds rather out of the question, it has its merits in that many of the plains of Greece are not that big and that your army could be able to find a suitable one on the path of the Romans. Hannibal, cautious in his latter days presents a battle you do not like. Thermopylae is cramped and a deathtrap if caught, but he is as always right that is is the only place to face the Romans if you want to be certain to not get outflanked by superior forces. Lysias present an alternative to the cautious advise of Hannibal, in his version you would be able to change to the offensive quickly should the Romans break in their attacks on you. Finally Hannibal, as always it seems, gives voice for a total abandonment of Greece without a battle.

What will it be?

1) Listen to Kassandros and seek out a battlefield in the plains where you have better tactical options, as well as you can get the best oput of your men?

2) Follow the advise of Hannibal and retreat to Thermopylae to face off with the Romans at the wall with a strong force guarding the paths to the rear, centered around the fortress of Callidromus.

3) Deside that Lysias has it right and deploy in an elaborate formation at the wall at Thermopylae in two destinct lines, that gives you the great tactical elasticity needed for a sudden change from defence to offence.

4) Leave Greece at best speed and cut your losses, hoping to get the Romans on sea on their way towards you in Asia Minor.

[AggonyDuck]

I choose option number four. Just seems like the wisest thing to do. ~:)

[L'Impresario]

Argh Ducky, I didn't think you'd follow the coward's way;)
Battles are things whose results are not easily foreseen - plus #4 creates more dilemmas, so in the end it might be better heh

[discovery1]

#1 seems suicidal with their calv superiority. #2 maybe I don't know. How strong is the force guarding the rear? And since the have elephants... #3) I don't think so. If the Romans attack the pass and are driven off, they would still likely have the stronger force taking into account that the legion is more mobile. #4 is the safest option, but the political fallout could be bad. How strong is your navy? Not that it's really equiped to fight the Corvus.

So either 2 or 4. I'd go with 2, unless your navy can handle Roman boardings.

[The Wizard]

First poster gets the decision. We can only sit and watch... :]

Looks good Krax, keep it up. I would have personally gone with the advice of Lysias.

At Thermopylae one could have forced the Romans into the same situation as the Persians, namely appreciate the one-on-one power of the Seleukids, who are just as veteran as the Romans after so many succesful campaigns under Antiochos. But, with a weakened formation such as proposed by the wily Hannibal, Roman discipline, excellent lower rank leadership and expertise in close combat might win out. If the Aetolians guard the pass, and there are enough Seleukid soldiers in a flexible enough formation to be able to react to any Roman stratagem, I say chances of Antiochos winning out would have been the greatest.



~Wiz

[Marshal Murat]

I loved the stories Tarrak,
Hasrubal.

[Kraxis]

Flight of the Seleucids

Having given the matter serious thought you end up accepting that you can't win a battle in Greece as it stands, that it is the wisest to embark the troops now, before the Romans arrive.
As you give the command, Hannibal smiles that halfsmile he wears at times.

Within a short while the entire army is embarked and on its way home to Asia Minor. The Aetolians are not informed of the decision, so they embark with you, believing that you will land behind the Romans.
The Romans on the other hand have been pressing hard to get to you fast and arrive at Thermopylae only a few days after the last troops left. This presents them with an interesting problem, as they have been forced to leave the garrisons alone. They are now threatening the Roman lines of communication, and yet Manius Glabrio can't go back as he now believes you have merely sent for reinforcements.
As a result the Roman navy is sent to safeguard his rear before he can go back and mop up the standed garrisons.

L. Aemilius Regillus entered the Aegean with the fleet of 83 ships with the intent of giving battle to the Seleucid fleet. At your disposal is a larger fleet of 90 ships, but among the Roman ships is a squadron of Rhodian ships, some 25 strong, reputed to be equipped with fire.

When your remaining troops landed in Asia Minor the Aetolian troops realized what had happened and refused to move any further until they were informed of what was going on. Who knows, maybe their government is now on the side of the Romans, and in fact it has recently surrendered.
Unfortunately for you it will take some time yet for you to get the army up in numbers, so there won't be any landings in Greece again soon. And as a result of the untimely retreat from Greece has made it more diffucult for the recruiters to find enough tribal warriors among the Galatians, Arabians and especially in Media.

Kassandros, again agitating for an aggressive stance tries to persuade you. "Bassileus, we must take to the offensive in the Aegean. We are superior in numbers and we on the homefield compared to the Romans. When we win the Roman army will have no option but to retreat back to Italy, as they do not seem willing to attack our cut-off garrisons. We should seek an honest and open battle."
Hannibal again opposes Kassandros. "Nay Sire, we should attempt to keep the Roman fleet sailing about chasing ghosts. They are here to fight for some reason, and as long as we denude them that fight they can't cross over. I propose that we fortify the Hellespont to keep them out by means of land as well."
Polyxenidas, the commander of the fleet chimes in too. "We are superior in numbers and larger ships, but aside from our Sidonian and other Phoenecian ships we are desperately short on superior seamanship. The Rhodians in the Roman fleet would present a serious obstacle for whatever flank would face them. I would like to shadow the Roman fleet and then attack them as they lay up for night, making it easy to destroy them. Then go an pick up the garrisons. I believe that should grant us the possibility for peace."

As you weigh up your options you also considerwhat to do with the Aetolians.

What to do? And this time there are two options that must be chosen. One for the naval battle and one regarding the state of the Aetolians.

A:
1) Seek out the decisive battle in open waters, at least as open so that you can employ the greater numbers and larger ships. A victory here would be decisive and you would gain control of the seas, possibly force the Romans home.
2) Play cat and mouse with the Roman fleet and block off the Hellespont. This standoff should soon bore the Romans into foolish action, either against you or against the Greeks.
3) Cloak and dagger. Let your fleet stalk the Roman fleet and attack it at its most vulnerable time, thus avoiding the better Rhodian seamanship, but risking that the fleet gets caught tired in the open.

B:
1) The Aetolians are fine light troops, equipped with larger shields, helmets and swords. Effectively making them good at close comabat where speed is important. Use this to your advantage and try to hire them outright. Your political trouble, caused by the retreat, has deprived you of similar troops, at least for a while.
2) Play the benevolent ruler and send the Aetolians home in a great PR stunt. Nobody should fight in your army if they have no need for it or no will for it. It should make foreign recruiting easier again.
3) Inform the Aetolian troops that you are fighting for their freedom from Roman suzerainity, that it is imperative that they fight on with you. To make good on this you position them on the ships as marines, so that they will feel they are fighting an active war.
4) You don't trust the Aetolians now that their leaders have bowed down to the Romans (such fickle people are untrustworthy), yet you can't send them home as it would be a sign of weakness, and you can't afford that so soon after the less than glorious retreat from Greece. Send them to the east near Seleucia and have them settle a new military settlement, with the help from you of course. They should provide you with plenty soldiers in the future.

[discovery1]

A) Cloak and dagger of course

B) I think 3

[discovery1]

Now for reasons why.

A)Seems like the dangers are slight(not that I know how fast your ships are nor how good their scouts are.) and could bring about a great victory if successful.

B)There aren't enough to Aelians to launch a muntany yes? They are fine troops, why not try and use them? And what better arguement than that/ Course, they may not buy it with what happened, so you will need to act quickly on the oceans, or at least look like you are.

[Gregoshi]

This looks like a good candidate for a sticky. And so it shall be.

[Incongruous]

Well I reckon


A-2. If the admiral beleives that you cannot beat the Romans in an open fight, then don't attempt to. But A cloak and dagger aprroach could flounder and wipe away any chace of invading Europa again. But trying to bore the Romans into a stupid decision could give you a victory which could then be followed up by causing a mass Roman eveacuation of Greece and Illyria. Giving you the power in the Agean and possibly the Adriatic.

B-2. If you end up beating the Romans and invading Greece once again why not make some friends and up your popularity by sending the Greek soldiers home. Plus, if they mutiny and demand to be sent home, you will have to slaughter them. Imagine what that would do to your political reputation, what sane mercenary would wish to serve under you and the Greeks would despise and simply see you as another oppresive tryant.

[Cataphract_Of_The_City]

Excellent idea Kraxis. I have a suggestion which I think will make the concept much more interesting.

Split each new desicion/scenario in a separate thread and use polls. Voting should come with a justification of your position.

[Kraxis]

Excellent idea Kraxis. I have a suggestion which I think will make the concept much more interesting.

Split each new desicion/scenario in a separate thread and use polls. Voting should come with a justification of your position.
Perhaps next time, as this one is already going. Also the people who have thus far chimed in, are all quite capable in determining what is good and what is not. This way of deciding the outcome is only going to be a problem if people are ignorant of history itself, or lack stategic insight. Neither of which seems to be lacking in any great amount here. ~:cheers:
But there is also the problem that your suggested idea might slow down to a crawl, as well as take up a whole lot of my time. So not now, but maybe next time. ~:)

[Kagemusha]

A:2 When the enemy is on the move harras him.
B:3 I believe the Aetolians that in first place came to your aid are the more warlike ones of them,so i think it wouldnt be too hard to get them to continue fighting.And if they will accept it your fleet gains more strength and if the Aetolians are harassing Roman ships as marines on your fleet,that can convince other Creeks to join in the fight too in the long run. :bow:

[Kraxis]

Maneuvers at Sea

You quickly decide that there is only one possible chance of victory. The Roman fleet is superior in seamanship and would be a tough nut to crack in an open battle. You let Polyxenidas have his way. At once he wants to get off and do his job, but you have a matter to settle first.

A delegation of the Aetolian troops enter the audiencehall of the local palace to discuss the future of the troops in Asia Minor.
They quickly make it clear that they want to return home. They find little point in fighting when their leaders have surrendered and been granted good terms. War for the sake of war is needless is their point.
When they are finished with their demands and arguments you sit up straight in the throne. "Honourable men, this is not a war that We wanted. We went to the aid of your people. Circumstances forced Us on the retreat but that shall not be so for long. Are you really going to accept Roman suzerainity? Such that you deemed worthy of a revolt against the Roman friendly leaders. We find it hard to believe that you will simply roll over and play dead. We must stand together and fight for what is ours. The Romans shouldn't meddle is affairs that are not theirs. Join Us! We are going to need your help on the sea, as a naval battle is taking form as we speak, We need marines. Also this is going to take the fight back to the Romans and we will be able to land in Greece once again and liberate your people from the Roman yoke. You are of course going to be paid for your services."
The leaders were not in agreement but the majority favoured helping you out at sea. As it turned out each delegate was a representative of a division of Aetolians, and in the end 3000 of their numbers joined you while 1000 still favoured to be sent home. As your fleet was now engaged in other matters this was not forthcoming an you sent them into the hinterland to 'temporary' settle in Galatia, knowing full and well the reputed beauty of the women and the abundance of them compared to the men.

The Aetolians embarked on the warships some 30 on each, of course more on the larger ships and no less than 120 on the mighty Octares (eight). This made the ships rather full of marines and slightly heavier.
Polyxenidas began his maneuvers against the Roman fleet. Knowing full and well that Rhodian scoutships were superior to his own he set about attacking the now Roman allied Macedonian shipping as well as other Roman allied ships, in an attempt to lure out the Roman fleet to a specific area where the scoutships could easily find them.
For a few weeks this went on while Regillus conferred with Manius Glabrio, but finally he set out to seek battle.

By this time the pirate leader Nicander had been convinced to at least help your cause and charged with supporting the fleet with another ten decked ships and a number of smaller pirateships acting as scouts. But so far he was not with the fleet.
Finally the Roman fleet entered the area and began a search for your fleet. Having been in the area for some weeks Polyxenides knew very well how to hide the fleet. Night came and it was time for the assault.

The Roman fleet beached itself not far from Amphipolis and Polyxenides edged closer as night came. When the fleet was in position they charged at the beach, marines at the ready. The Roman fleet was surprised, but not by much as they had had sentries on watch. The Aetolian and regular marines jumped on board the beached ships after their own ships had struck home. A serious fight ensued at the very end of the Roman line where three ships were mortally wounded by ramming and melee was still going on on another few ships. At the other end however, the Rhodians were vigilant and managed to hold off their attackers by using fire, which the Seleucid ships feared with a vengeance.
The entire fleet aroused by the sentries Polyxenides was forced to retreat again. Only five ships had been destroyed, three by ramming and two by boarding, none had been captured. His own losses were high among the marines and a single Quadrireme had been captured, though with great damage to the bow. At least the enemy had suffered losses among his rowers and marines as well, but the Rhodians had managed to stay clear.
The nightattack had failed, but at least with a positive score.

The next day Regillus set out, led by the Rhodians to find the Seleucid fleet. The scoutships managed to bring back that the Seleucids were trying to get away towards the Hellespont but the wind was dead and they were going slowly by oars. The next day the two fleets were in sight of each other. By some sort of accident or foolish demand to meet the fleet you happen to be closeby as the fleets form up for battle. Though it presents you with some danger it also gives you the option to decide the what formation Polyxenides should use.

You enter the Octares, the flagships of Polyxenides to discuss the battle.
He quickly tries to play the knowing admiral and force his decision. He champions a conservative formation of a line with the Sidonian and other Phoenician ships on the right, led by himself in the Octares. 89 vs 78 ships should provide the line with enough length to sweep the enemy formation.
A lesser captain, known for his untraditional thinking, advises a W-shaped formation, that takes full advantage of the superiority of numbers.
You yourself have been playing an admiral and voices the choice of a line of slightly less length than the Roman fleet but has a reserve behind the main line.

So you have to fight a battle you didn't want, and with a rather tired fleet. You do enjoy a rather marked advantage in marines and a slight advantage in numbers and size of ships.
What do you do?

1) Let Polyxenides take full charge and fight a traditional battle. This is gives you the advantage that it is less likely to foul up, but the Rhodian ships are given the best of choices.

2) Follow the advise of the young brave captain and force Polyxenides to deploy in a W. This is more likely to foul up due to not only the unusual formation, but also because Polyxenides is in charge but might not be up to it. But at the same time it takes the best advantage of your numbers and size of ships. There will plenty of chances for ramming and boarding here.

3) Deploy defensively to be able to react to the Rhodians but also to be able to reinforce any troublespots. This is not likely to foul up a it is merely a doubleline in some places, and Polyxenides should easily be able to manage it. It does annul your advantage in numbers however, at least in the initial engagement.

[caesar44]

[QUOTE=Kraxis]This is the third installment of my rather successful (if I may say so ~D) series begun over at the .com (I was Tarrak there).
So the background and the rule (yes it is singular) is set.
Here we go:
Antiochus' Dilemma:


The Romans already didn't like you very much, being scared of your growing power in the east, so naturally they have reacted with great strength, as is their custom. A force of some 20,000 infantry, 2,000 cavalry and 15 elephants was crossed over from Brundisium, led by Manius Glabrio with the two famous Romans, Marcus Porcius Cato and Valerius Flaccus as tribunes. You have been caught with your pants by your ankles and several garrisons are lost, you have at your disposal only 10,000 infantry, 500 cavalry and 6 elephants.





Sorry for my stickiness for facts (minors??) , and for my English , but Cato and Flaccus could not have been tribunes , because the tribunes were forbidden from leaving Rome , so , I suppose you meant military tribunes , in that case it is a mistake because the two were legates

Btw - very good idea !!!!! ~:cheers:

[Franconicus]

Excellent story.

I chose 1. He is the commander and is responsible. If you really believe that the officer is right, fire the admiral.

By the way, I'd rather have another choice. After the failure in the last battle and the retreat from Greece I would pretend that I am running away and then try to make another surprise attack ~:cool:

[discovery1]

I think # 2 is best. While it is new, it also plays up our strengths as much as possible. #1 gives to much to the Rhodians, and #3 may result in the first line being overcome before the 2nd can arrived.

Edit: This thread is addicting.

[Kagemusha]

I would choose the 2 because if you have inferior sailors,your only chance is to use your numbers.I think the 1 would be disaster because if i would be the Roman Admiral i would deploy my rhodesians against those phoenician ships.I think key to win this sea battle is to avoid the rhodesians and route the others. :bow:

[Kraxis]

Sorry for my stickiness for facts (minors??) , and for my English , but Cato and Flaccus could not have been tribunes , because the tribunes were forbidden from leaving Rome , so , I suppose you meant military tribunes , in that case it is a mistake because the two were legates

Btw - very good idea !!!!! ~:cheers:
In these matter there is hardly room for the plebeian tribunes. ~;)
I must admit that I was uncertain as to their true role (I studied the matter od Cato in Spain in late spring but quickly skimmed over his assignment in the east, so my memory failed me a bit here), but since the true battle at Thermopylae had a rather small force under Cato (and Flaccus if I'm not mistaken) become detached, I didn't think a legate would be assigned such a minor force. Though a tribune was certainly a good candidate.

Btw, Franconius it is impossible to run. The winds are low and the crews are tired, in fact the fleet was indeed running but was caught. Further, in general back then generals and other leaders would abandon an idea if it proved to be a failure.

[caesar44]

In these matter there is hardly room for the plebeian tribunes. ~;)
I must admit that I was uncertain as to their true role (I studied the matter od Cato in Spain in late spring but quickly skimmed over his assignment in the east, so my memory failed me a bit here), but since the true battle at Thermopylae had a rather small force under Cato (and Flaccus if I'm not mistaken) become detached, I didn't think a legate would be assigned such a minor force. Though a tribune was certainly a good candidate.

Btw, Franconius it is impossible to run. The winds are low and the crews are tired, in fact the fleet was indeed running but was caught. Further, in general back then generals and other leaders would abandon an idea if it proved to be a failure.



Well , as you know , military tribunes were young aristocrats , actually , it was their first command , and Cato ? he was already a Consul in 195 , but never mind.... ~:)

[Kraxis]

The Battle of Imbros

With the Roman fleet nearing with rather high speed you agree that Polyxenidas should deploy both fast and sure. There is hardly time for new innovations at seatactics. And while you would still love to have reserves for the battle you are persuaded to let Polyxenidas deploy in a full line to get the most of your superior numbers.
With the warmeeting over, you hurry back to your royal galley to watch the battle from there, with anxious impatience.

Polyxenides quickly deploys his fleet with a proffesionalism that is worth his position. On his right he positions the best part of the fleet, the Phoenecian squadrons, among them the Sidonian triremes, the best of your fleet. Regillus, opposing you, quickly follows suit. So quick that it has to have been a predetermined formation. On his left he positioned the entire Rhodian squadron while his own Roman ships held the rest.
As the Roman fleet arrayed itself, Polyxenides pressed his own fleet further to the right to get a better advantage in length. Seeing this the Rhodian ships launched their attack before the signal was given.
Despite being surprised Polyxenidas managed to turn his ships and face the attack, and as if a great gateway had been opened the entire Seleucid fleet attacked. This was not to Regillus' advantage as his own ships were not fully in position yet and several were still behind the main line.

Despite being outnumbered and outsized the Rhodians attacked with great fury, using their stopping attack on front (so that their ram penetrated below the waterline while their enemy's penetrated above it) and the glancing attacks to deprive their enemies of their oars.
On both flanks the Seleucid ships swung in, but on the left they were caught by the undeployed Roman ships as they hurried to their positions and a regular melee erupted onboard the entangled ships. Rhodian slingers swept the decks with their deadly bullets by were in kind pelted with javelins to which they had no shield to protect them from, unlike their opponents. In the center there was a standoff as neither side could get a proper position to ram the enemy and their marines now traded missiles with little effect. But the bigger Seleucid ships carried ballistas and other boltthrowers which turned out to be of great effect against the Roman infantry packing the decks.
On the Seleucid right things were not going well. Three ships had already been sunk, and another four had been crippled from ramming or oarsnapping, this for the cost of two Rhodian ships, one of which had been basically run over by the Octares and another captured by boarding from the same ship and a Sidonian trireme. The advantage in numbers was dwindling fast. Meanwhile on the left the outflanking ships were struggling for survival. One of the four ships was boarded by two Roman ships while a quinqereme managed to keep potential boarders away with her ballistas, but she was caught with her ram in another ship, immobile. The last two were also fending off various attempts at boarding. In this fight the Aetolians proved to be the saviors of the ships, repeatedly throwing back attacks with javelins and even killing boarders with their swords. But their numbers were weakened by the nightly attack.
In the center the Seleucid line accidentally opened up slightly, this was jumped at by Regillus and his ships surged at the gap, this in turn gave several ships changes of ramming their flanks and so the center devolved into a bloody melee.
Finally the Rhodians gained the upper hand by driving off the heavier Phoenecian ships and nearly surrounding the Octares. The Sidonian ships fought back, but they were now outnumbered and driven back from the flagship.
In the center several ships began to turn at the sight of the fleeing Phoencian ships. A general rout was threatening, but at that moment a number of sails were visible from behind the rocks on the island of Imbros, these lowered, obviously wanting to get into the battle.
The Roman fleet, busy chasing the Seleucid ships stopped and began to retreat in face of what they thought was another fleet of enemy ships. The tables were turned and the remaining Seleucid ships raced after them, to get away the Roman fleet scuttled their prices. A few were caught and captured, including the Roman flagship, a quinqereme, though without it's commander.
The Roman fleet then noticed that the new enemy fleet contained but ten ships, barely of trireme size, more likely 2½ bankers called triemiolas. Pirate ships, in fact piratehunter ships, but this time in the employ of a pirate leader.

Unformed as they were, and severely depleted from battle and pursuit the Romans withdrew, letting the Seleucid fleet grasp the tactical victory.

In the end it was more like a draw. Of the 89 ships deployed from the Seleucid fleet a grand total of 58 were lost, 23 sunk outright, 32 scuttled by the fleeing Romans, or later sunk from battledamage or scuttled by their own crews, because of their lack of mobility, among these the mighty Octares, and finally 3 captured. Only the arrival of the pirates had saved the Seleucid fleet from outright annihilation. The Roman fleet suffered a total of 40 losses, 26 sunk and 14 captured, the Rhodian losses of these were a mere 4.
While it was tactically a draw/win for the Seleucids it was a strategic victory for the Romans. They had now achieved what they set out to do, to protect the army from a new landing in the rear while it cleaned up among the garrisons. The Seleucid fleet, on the other hand, had needed a victory to secure the sea for another landing, but at least it was now safe from a Roman landing.

The political scene has a few changes, Phillip V have now entered an alliance with the Romans and the Ptolomies have sent their positive favour to Rome. Pontus has likewise sent feelers to Rome in the hope that they might gobble up provinces in case of a Roman invasion of Asia Minor. But your positive action, or so it was believed as per the Roman interpretation, in the Aegean have made the Greeks more positive towards you. Also the Galatians and Arabs are more likely to join your army again, but not in the numbers as before your Greek adventure.

So now you are in a problematic position. The draw/victory didn't produce anything at all, but bad news from the political arena. It is time to show them who is boss once more.
Hannibal, uncharacteristically, urges you to attack into Thrace and Macedonia. "Trace is weak and will fall at the sight of your current army, some 30,000 strong, especially if you grant them positive terms. Macedonia is weakened since the battle of Cynoscephalae and shouldn't be able to withstand you, and the citizens are likely to support you against Rome. They have a score to settle with them."
Kassandros, the political animal he is, does not want to create more problems before old ones are settled and he advises a show of force against Pontus. "Pontus is rather strong, we can't afford to have her enemy when we are engaged in Greece or Macedonia. She needs to be brought back in line and our ally."
You turn towards Lysias, expecting him to speak up. For a few seconds nothing happens, then he finally understand what you are getting at. "Uhm, sorry... Sire, both of Hannibal's and Kassandros' advises are good. But they are limited of scope and even dangerous. In Macedonia we can get bogged down easily in the range of passes and narrow valleys, and by attacking Pontus we lose valuable time in doing something that can be gained by other avenues. I simply think that we should teach the despicable Ptolomies a lesson. They are weakened from rebellions among the natives, and we are massing troops in Antioch anyway. A quick march into Egyp should be enough to force them to break off contact with Rome, and at the same time Pontus should be cowed into submission from such a display of power."

What do you do?

1) Take the army of 25,000 infantry, 5,000 cavalry, 22 elephants and 120 chariots into Thrace and Macedonia to force the Romans north and gain allies. This is a sure way to get the Romans fighting fast, and a good way to grant the garrisons, of about 6,000 quality troops, some more time, as the Romans can't afford the loss of Macedonia as their allies. The risk is stated by Lysias, you can get bogged down easily if Macedonia is more hostile than Hannibal appreciates. Also Pontus might take advantage of that and attack you in Asia Minor.

2) Attack Pontus with the same army. She is not likely to withstand it, but she is stronger than Thrace. A nice and powerful ally she would make once more. The risk isn't so much a risk as a waste of time, for this will take a good while. In the meantime the Romans would likely strengthen their position in Greece, reducing your garrisons and the sudden surge in your popularity.

3) An attack on Egypt with local garrisons, Cilicians, Arabs, Medes and other eastern cavalry would likely amount to 20,000 infantry and 6,000 cavalry. Of this you would have only 8,000 phalangites, but speed would be the most important matter here. Unfortunately you would need to be present to give the more unregular troops confidence. The risk is that you would have to be far away from the main war, and that Egypt might in fact put up a tough fight when faced with an outside invader once again. You would also lose the garrisons in Greece. On the positive side it would grant you a lot of popularity in Greece, not politically perhaps, but among the common man who would see you as a good commander to lead them to victory.

[Kraxis]

Well , as you know , military tribunes were young aristocrats , actually , it was their first command , and Cato ? he was already a Consul in 195 , but never mind.... ~:)
Yes, but that didn't mean they could be reappointed. Especially when a war with a strong enemy loomed. I can't look it up so it is really a moot point on my part. ~:rolleyes: ~:)

[Marshal Murat]

2)Attack Pontus, and give them the good "Alexander Reborn" speech, and get some allies among the Pontus. If the Romans attack, they can only strike across the Hellespont, and there you can be strong against their onslaught with you and your allies fighting.

[discovery1]

Yes, attack Pontus. The Egyptians are to far from the main theater. Thrace, uh, I don't know. For some reason I think a low leve resistance will develope that will sap your strength. And maybe the Romans could seize the straits with their fleet cutting you off.

[caesar44]

Yes, but that didn't mean they could be reappointed. Especially when a war with a strong enemy loomed. I can't look it up so it is really a moot point on my part. ~:rolleyes: ~:)

Kraxis ,
I agree , there is a moot
Just for example - http://www.barca.fsnet.co.uk/cato.htm in cotrass with - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cato_the_Elder

[Kagemusha]

I Would go with number 3.Leave your current army to secure Hellespontos that would also guarantee that Pontus will stay peacefull and your Navy to haras Romans.Rush to home and Strike Egypt.After that you can come back with lot stronger Army,because you dont have to worry about the Egyptians anymore. :bow:

[Marshal Murat]

But in doing so, the Pontus might move into my rear, and the Romans would have already marched across the Hellespont. Egypt is a threat, but as said, you have any army in Antioch.
If you succeed in Pontus, or are attacked midway, give Hannibal command in Antioch.
I just wonder, wouldn't Hannibal be a good general in the Middle East.
He has elephant experiance, phalanx experiance, and could probably hold his own against the Ptolmeys. Although in Italy he met incompetence amongst the Romans, he did win some stunning victories. Carthage was unable to support his war effort, and thus it failed.

[Steppe Merc]

I probably would have attacked the Ptolemies, on the condition that I'd be able to bring the Eastern cavalry with me into Macedon. That would be unlikely, and if I couldn't do that, then I'd attack Macedon and Thrace.

[Kagemusha]

Its just my gutfeeling.But i would be scared to leave my army with Hannibal on command.Surely he is best commander available,but i think he wouldnt stay at Hellespontos.I believe he would either move against Romans or Pontus.My strategy would be gamble i admit. :bow:

[Marshal Murat]

If you would attack Macedon and Thrace, there may be a popular uprising. However, Kraxis pointed out that the mountains would hinder your army. If the historical battle of Thermoplaye gave any indication, your army wouldn't stand a chance. And if your defeated, then the Thracians can cut your lines, and you would soon whittle away to nothing.

The Egyptians could launch an assault. However, about ten years ago, boy-king took the throne. He could attack northward. However, the lands of the Jordan stand between him. But recent events would not be mangled. aka, he would be allied to Rome, and the armies in Selucia could help the rebels, but the king was tyranical about supressing them.

[The Wizard]

The Thracians were divided into tribal confederations under kings. The most powerful being the Odrysians. Play them against each other, get some as allies and then invade Makedonia and you have a great campaign ahead of you...



~Wiz

[Steppe Merc]

Perhaps you could inlist some Thracian cavalry... For if the Romans have a weakness, it's that they suck when it comes to cavalry. I assume that you'd have Heratoi and other such heavy horse, but every bit helps. (Which is why I'd want to get some more Eastern horse...)

[Marquis of Roland]

Attack Thrace.

I'm thinking a large reason why Pontus is thinking about allying with Rome is because they're right at their doorstep. Drive the Romans away from Pontus and they will once more be isolated in Asia Minor. Without the chance of Roman support, they will not attack, as they did not attack before the Romans got there. In fact eventually they can be convinced to send supporting troops.

Attacking Pontus gives the Romans time to build up men and at the same time reduce "high-quality" Seleucid troops trapped in Greece. It will also drain the strength of your main army while the Romans will not suffer any significant casualties starving out the garrisons.

If Egypt is anything like they are in the game, they're way too powerful for a half-hearted merc army to attack. They'll only take advantage of this and attempt to conquer some Seleucid provinces as "self-defense".

Landing an army in Thrace may also get you new allies and resources to build up your navy. If Thrace does not bow in the face of the army, taking Byzantium will give you a natural river barrier against Tylis in the north. The phalanx formations can follow the coast where it is not as mountainous to Macedonia next. The coast can also be used to protect at least one flank of your army. Marching towards Thessalonika will definitely draw the Roman army out to battle on a ground of your choosing (with the ocean guarding your left flank, of course).

Once a foothold in Greece has been established, a great fleet must be gathered to land a strong, independent army in Italy, which should draw the Roman forces in Greece back to Italy to defend Rome.

[Kraxis]

Invasion of Pontus

Having listened to lengthy debate by your three advisors you finally hush them down. "Attacking Egypt is simply not good right now. We have recently won a war with them, we need not have another strong enemy in addition to the Romans. A war on two fronts is dangerous! Not only that but the campaigning season is getting late, we are in the middle of summer, any campaign into Egypt would have to last until next year. So we can't get Pontus in line that way. Should we attack across the Hellespont we would open up to Pontus. The army in place would be certain to be out for a good while, our flank would be open to even very weak attacks. A dangerous situation... And we wouldn't even have certainty of victory in Thrace and Macedonia. No, an attack on Pontus is the best we can hope for. With the army we have now we should be able to defeat them easily and all the while we would be able to collect our troops for the showdown with Rome. These troops would also serve as a backup in case of trouble. Paphlagonia and Kappadokia are nice grounds for cavalry, even Bithynia have good tribal troops. In the event of a quick victory Pontus would be forced to supply us with troops and money."

So the matter was settled by your own arguments. You will take the current army of 30,000 troops into Pontus along with the siegetrain you have assembled in Sardis. This army consist of a good collection. All 10,000 argyraspids form the core with the 8,000 settlerphalangites, supporting them you have 1,000 Galatian infantry, fighting in the normal and fierce celtic way, 3,000 Thracian peltasts, 1,000 Cretan archers and 3,000 light hillmen armed with slings and javelins. The 5,000 cavalry consist of 1,000 Agema (formerly Companions), 1,000 eastern cataphracts, 2,000 light cavalry (javelin cavalry from the parthian tribe the Dahae), 500 Galatian cavalry (light melee cavalry) and 500 Mysian light calvary (also javelins). Together with this you have 22 elephants and 120 chariots.
An army of great quality if not of size, the only true problem you might face is a lack of light infantry compared to the Pontic forces.

You know that the Pontic army includes plenty of light cavalry and some chariots, a core of hellenized infantry drawn from the Greek coastal cities and their local neighbours, both formed up in a similar fashion as your phalangites. The actual sizes are unknown, but as with so many other eastern kingdoms tere is a tendency to pull out many thousands of low quality infantry to bolster the army, so even if you knew it would not help much in giving a proper view of it's strength.

You set out north from Sardis towards the more or less independant cities and regions. As you go you collect the troops. At Abydos you strengthen the garrison so it would be able to resist a siege and then move off again. But soon you are once again beset by your advisors.

Hannibal clearly favours a coastal advance towards Sinope to take most advantage of the Thracian tribes of Asia Minor and the Greek cities. Hopefully they will not resist you and lay open the advance on the Pontic capital. A quick decapitation should provide you with a peace before the end of campaigning season.
Lysias, supported by Kassandros, favours an advance through Galatia towards Mazaka, and from there head towards Sinope. That route would provide you with more Galatians hopefully a well as grant you better battlefields. The Greek cities would certainly look favourably at this is the hope.

What do you do? This time there are only two choices.

1) Follow Hannibal's advise and move up along the coast towards Sinope. Thracian and Greeks should support your advance. This is by far the fastest route, but as the trek of Xenophon and the Ten Thousand proved, it can be very problematic with logistics. Eventhough the Pontic navy is hardly anything to fear your own navy is occupied and so can create problems. Further the area is not good for battles, generally too narrow on the coast and in the nearby valleys.

2) Go through the central highlands towards Mazaka. This brings you into Galatia where you are already recruiting. The sight of the army should put both fear and awe into the celts, making them join the army in greater numbers. Though the route in general provides you with better battlefields it also has more dangerous passes and valleys you wouldn't need to go through along the coast.
Though Lysias and Kassandros believes the Greek cities along the coast would be greatly pleased by this you are not certain about it. Seldomly have cities surrendered without an army nearby.

[Kagemusha]

I would go with the number 1.Pontic light infantry couldnt stop you on those narrow passes and valleys.In matter of fact that would favor your superior troops against their superior numbers.Strike fast and strike hard,strike straight to the heart of Pontus. :bow:

[Steppe Merc]

2,000 light cavalry (javelin cavalry from the parthian tribe the Dahae),
Hate to nit pick but the Dahae weren't a Parthian tribe. They were related to the Parni, but a more accurate term would be "the Iranian tribe the Dahae". They probably would have been horse archers, but they also had javilen skirmishers.
edit: Just looked at the time period, and they might have been controlled by the Parthians at this time.

I would also have followed the coast. It is the fastest, and once you strike Pontus, you can then take inlist their cavalry and light troops which would be perfect against the Romans.

[discovery1]

Hmmm. Since their navy isn't very big, I suppose they couldn't hope to land a sufficient force in your rear to quickly reduce garrisons. And hopefully the independent Greek cities will not present a united front, thus making victory relatively easy, if they don't support you from the start that is. And Pontus hopefully won't be expecting an attack from the free cities.

So yeah, move along the coast.

[Marshal Murat]

I agree to go #1
Light infantry will hold your men in the passes, with your lack of light soldiers. However, the prospect of good phalanx terrain could have worked towards your advantage. Your elephants could inspire fear among the troop.

However, I fear that if forced to battle, on a beach, then numbers and the soft sand would destroy your men.

I would go and gain the support of the Greeks, secure your western flank, and cut the head off the Pontus, and then march down to Mazaka, and secure local support from the Galatians. If you succeed, then Egypt will be to your south, and the the Romans to your Greek bulwark. The Egyptians will no doubt see the threat of your nation with Pontus allied to you. They will no doubt use the rebellion suppression forces against your new found power. An alliance will no doubt be formed between the Romans and the Ptolmeys.
Your Antioch army will bolster your troops in a drive to Tyre, or Sidon, or Jerusalem. Then with your ancient enemies delt with, you can amass a fleet for another assault of Greece.

[Marquis of Roland]

#1.

Going through Mazaka will send your army inland and not able to respond to any Roman or Greek movements on the coast. Keeping your army near the Hellespont will at the least keep the Romans guessing as to whether or not you're going to land in western Propontis or continue east to Sinope. Even when you reach Sinope, the Hellespont is still a manageable distance away from you, so this fact should make the Romans think twice about landing any force in Asia Minor anytime soon.

[Marshal Murat]

This move may force Egypt to wait and speculate.
As you move north, you could cross into Thrace, or head to Sinope. If you move to Thrace, Egypt would attack northward to hit you while your far away from Antioch.
If you move to Sinope, they could still attack, but you would be closer. However, you would have to cross Mazaka, and the Pontus kings know it. They may not be friendly to your cause since you tried to assault their capital.

[Kraxis]

Battle with Pontus

As you advance along the coast the Greek cities submits even before you get near them. The tribes in the surrounding area and the local cities needs a show of force first but they too submit. Thracian peltasts join your army as mercenaries, and you get an influx of 2,000 of these.
The closer you get to Sinope the more distressing news you get about the state of Pontus' army. It appears that Mithridates III, the old king of Pontus, has in fact already begun his mobilization of the army. While this means the Pontic army is larger than anticipated it also proves that the attack was the right course of action as Mithidrates apparently had intentions of attacking you while you were occupied elsewhere. To your dismay, though, the Greek cities have already supplied their troops, giving the Pontic army a potent infantryforce of pikemen in addition to the royal contingents.
Rumours speak of an army of no less than 45,000, but of this you don't know the amount of low quality levies. Hopefully it is a rather substantial part, or else you can be in for serious trouble.

Realizing that Mithridates would now be marching towards you, you speed up the pace, and city after city submits. Within two weeks you are in control of the entire region of Bithynia and rather close to Sinope. It become apparent that the Pontic army was positioned inlands for a strike towards KiliKia and Tarsos.
You begin to wonder about taking Sinope before the Pontic army can respond, but before you can put that into action you are halted at a small river, only some 300 stades from Sinope.

Arrayed in front of you is the Pontic army in the narrows between the sea and the foothills of the nearby mountains. In their center is a compact force of phalangites with a sprinkle of light infantry, seemingly Thracians. On their right flank is a large force of cavalry, light by the appearances of them, mixed with light infantry, again Thracians. On the left of the phalangites is another force of infantry, spearmen and other closecombat troops. On the far left flank is a force of heavier cavalry, not too big but certainly in a commanding position on the slopes of the nearest hill, the hill itself seems to be occupied by slingers. Behind this force you can't see what is going on, but you expect there to be more troops.

The river is probed for crossings and it appears to be completely fordable.

You summon your advisors for a counsil.

Lysias, as seasoned general he does not like the look of the enemy army. It is big, compact and in a good position. He wants to play an annoying game, where he will setup the army a short distance from the river in classical formation, with the elephants in the rear. Then use the Cretans and sligers to harrass the enemy heavy cavalry into charging or repositioning. Then respond to the enemy movements in kind. He will also use the Thracian peltasts and Galatian infantry to clear the hill and get the commanding position there. The Pontic would then be forced to act, upon which he would strike.

Hannibal is more bold. Having experienced basically all kinds of battlefields he is confident you will win easily in a mor conventional attack.
He proposes that you mirror the Pontic army. Phalangites in center, heavy cavalry on your right and light cavalry on your left. But as a support for the heavy cavlary he wants to take 15 elephants and have them lead the attack on the cavalry, and take the brunt of missiles in the river, behind them would come 3,000 Thracians. The remaining 7 elephants he will position among the light cavalry to repel any Pontic attacks there, possibly even charge across after the initial engagement had been opened up on the right. This would need the support of the Galtatians and the rest odf the Thracians. Meanwhile the Cretans and slingers would occupy the enemy on the hill.
This way you protect your attack, while denuding the enemy of his strongest forces.

You yourself is a bit more sneaky. You are not as confident as Hannibal, but you are politically aware. You will position your army a good distance back fro mthe river to allow the enemy to cross should he want to. But the main reason would be to allow the enemy to be more lax. Then at night contact the Greek troops and try to get them to abandon the Pontic king, and mask this by coming to discuss terms of peace.
Meanwhile you would have the Dahae, Thracians and hillmen raid and skirmish protected by the Galatian cavalry. Especially against the hill.

So, who has the best idea?

1) Lysias with his defensive counterstroke. This is not very risky, but you might suffer great losses among the Cretans and Thracians. Especially if the Pontic forces on the hill are stronger than anticipated (you don't know what might be behind the hill) or if the cavalry responds too fast for you. Also it might not have an impact at all on the enemy who might just stand firm in face of all this and send infantry to clear you off the hill. The positive points are that the troops you would loses are expendable, if a bit hard to recruit at times. Also, given the expected undisciplined status of the Pontic army, this might very well be a successful tactic. At the same time though, any victory like this would not result in a decisive victory as most of the enemy would get away.

2) Follow the offensive Hannibal. Hannibal is brilliant, you know this, and ig he beleives you can win like this, then that is likely. But is he perhaps too bold? You risk the elephants stampeding your flanks, but luckily they are rather few, and cavalry and light infantry can evade them. This just opens up enemy counterattacks. But your armoured elephants should be able to resist the javelins and bullets.
In general you risk more critical troops, but a victory here would likely destroy the core of the Pontic army.

3) Hold on to your own convictions. The Greeks have lost their homes to you, and you have treated them nicely, even let them join you with a lot of benefits. They shouldn't be too loyal to Mithridates. Also, your Thracians are perfect nightraiders, night raids are quite normal in both Thrace and Bithynia. So they can move stealthily, hide in the darkness and are better at melee than the enemy light troops.

[King Henry V]

I like number three, Antiochus' plan. The underdog's best way is to fight sneaky.

[Marshal Murat]

Talk about odd, eh?
Anyway, from your lack of enemy disposition, I would agrue that
If you followed Hannibals advice, and charged the elephants and cavalry against the heavy cavalry, while taking missiles, the elephants will run amok!

Withdrawing sounds like something. The enemy has chosen the ground. You should try to move back and chose your own ground. However, this game of attrition will not be good for you. So I would suggest moving up from Antioch. However, I am far ahead of myself.

Withdrawing the Greeks from camp, that sounds like it might work. However, Mithridates III will notice if his men leave. I would like to have his army whittled down. Also the reinforcements could be better troops, even scythe chariots.
Scythe chariots are doomed to failure if they hit veterans who head for the horse.

Your lighter troops should be deployed to the fore and flanks. Cavalry in blocks behind the skrimishers on the flanks. Elephants distributed among the cavalry. Don't go with Raphia again and lead a charge to blow apart the enemy then follow up.

Lead the charge if required. But withdraw before your drawn in. The Pontus might overlap your flanks. You your first hit should be
A)Elite troops and cavalry, rout the best the enemy has, and see if their willin g to talk.
B)Flanks and light/untested troops. If they break, then they will expose gaps along the lines for your spearmen to exploit, or your elephants. (Remember the fun of seeing that dense phalanx go up into the air when three elephants careen through?)

[Kraxis]

Sneaky Antiochus

You dismiss the advise of the two seasoned generals, this would be your show.

You fall back some 3 stades towards a slight hill to make camp for the night. Pickets are posted in secrecy, and when the night falls the Thracians file out in silence. From the slightly higher positioned camp you can see them edge closer to the river like water slowly flowing down a hill. Then you call for Lysias and Hannibal.
When they arrive you order them to take a small following and head directly for Mithridates, Lysias sneaking into the Greek camp.

You wait for hours, while the Thracians edge closer, some have even corssed the river in silence, just waiting for the signal to attack. Then the diplomatic mission comes back.
Hannibal starts out, "Sire, they simply want you to leave. There will be no discussions until this is settled. Everything I tried failed, basically I only go one word, and that was 'no'. It is rather hard to keep time flowing when one side doesn't want to discuss." Lysias nods, then gives his report. "My mission is a failure. The Greek soldiers will not change sides, for as they say 'why exchange one despot for another? We will pick the one we know.' Basically they have no reference for you. They don't know they can trust you. And I doubt we can achieve victory without battle."

Meanwhile the Thracians had recieved the signal for attack, and all kinds of trouble was stirred on the other side of the river. The Dahae and Galatian cavalry pour out of the camp and rush towards the hill while the hillmen rush towards the river. The Pontic forces try to respond by seemingly the Thracians are everywhere and they get ambushed all over the place.
The fight is soon called off as Pontic cavalry begins to form up for a fight, but in the confusion the slingers and light infantry on the hill moves down to help out at the river. The Dahae quickly occupies it and the hillmen soon change course to head for it too.
Finally the Thracians fall back pursued by small groups of light cavalry. In the night it is confusing and very deadly. But to the surprise of the Pontic troops the Galatian cavalry suddenly attacks them. Opposed by melee cavalry they break and are chased back to camp.

The Thracians find their way into the camp again to get a deserved rest. Their leaders inform you that it had not been either Greeks or other linetroops that had been on guard but basically peasants with spears and shields. This confirms your suspicion that there is a large force of infantry behind the first line. So in effect the Thracians didn't gain much for you, but the confusion led to loss of the hill for the Pontic army, which is now firmly in your hands.

The next day you lead your army out to do battle, and just in time as the Pontic heavy cavalry is leading some light infantry to attack the hill. The Dahae have met them far down the slope to slow down the advance while your slingers are pelting them from above. Despite superior strength and heavier troops these attacks and the rugged terrain makes it hard for the Pontic troops to advance. But this can't last and you take the Agema and Galatians with you on a headlong rush, while the army gets into formation at the river.

Occupied with the hill the Pontic troops slowly revolve around it so that finally they can't see across the river. You force your cavalry on at best speed, delegating the Galatians to attack th infantry while your own Agema takes care of the cavalry. Though the Galatians will be very heavily outnumbers and could get wiped out you expect the hillmen and Dahae to help them out once you have engaged the heavy cavalry.

As Mithridates see your army form up he has been busy forming his own army up, so again luck is with you and you are not noticed by the commanders. Before your army is fully deployed the Pontic light cavalry charge across the river to disperse your 500 Mysian cavalry. Against this they fall back with speed and the Pontic horses halt to reform for the attack on the infantry flanks, composed of the Galatian infantry (you haven't had time for proper deployment so the units just file in as they enter the field).

You cross the river uncontested but for a few light infantry quickly dealt with by the Galatians. You force the cavalry round the edge of the hill and suddenly the enemy cavalry comes into view. They are not exactly disrupted but their flanks are exposed and before they can react you charge hard at them. Both units are tired, your cavalry from the dash across the river and the Pontic cavalry from the swirling fight with the Dahae. The first contact brings instant disruption in the enemy and a deadly melee ensues.
Meanwhile the Galatians have taken the enemy light troops in the rear and the hillmen in the front.

Back on the left the Pontic lights begin their charge. First they close to throw their javelins and head back. The small unit of Galatian infantry is hard pressed, but they stand firm. As the javelinattack doesn't seem to dislodge the infantry the cavalry tried a sweep around them for a charge. Just then the elephants charge from behind the infantryline. They have moved the entire length of the line to help the Galatians, and now they rush in. The Pontic lights fall back before this enemy and are at once beset by the Mysian cavalry and Galatian infantry, breaking and dispersing them.

Your fight with the enemy heavy cavalry is still bogged down as their superior numbers makes up for the surprise and charge. But the Galatians with the help of the hillmen and Dahae have finally broken the enemy light troops, which turned out to be part of the Thracian peltasts. The Galatians lets the others cahse the enemy while they get into the fight they really yearn for, a fight wheer they can take heads of nobles. This is too much for the Pontic heavies and they break, chased by the wild Galatians.

So, both flanks are won, and now your infantry, in a mottled formation granted, begins it attack acorss the river. The Greeks and royal troops oppose them with great gusto and bravery, and manage to hold them back, but the spearmen and other linetroops can't hold back the cataphracts and break. You have now reformed the Agema and charge at the household cavalry of Mithridates. Another brutal engagement ensues where you manage to get close to the king himself. You throw your xyston at him, and strike him in the leg. Apparently his armour takes it but this is too much for the older man and he flees, leaving the household calvary to cover him.
Seeing this the levies flee as well and your cavalry now has plenty of targets to chase.
When you have dealt with the remianing household cavalry you turn towards the royal infantry and their local compatriots. The cataphracts also join in on the attack the combined charge cause the Pontic troops to break and flee.
You send half the Agema to chase them with the cataphracts while you now have the infantry press the Greeks. After a while you tell your troops to halt and send in a diplomat. The Greeks surrender, but won't fight for you, they want to go home, but they agree to defend their cities for you.

During the day the cavalry returns to celebrate the victory. It was a stunning victory, and especially your irregular forces did well, the Galatian cavalry is especially pleased with the chance to take noble heads, a chance they did not misuse.
While it was stunning it was not as bloody as expected, and most of the royal troops and other line troops managed to get away with the cavalry. Their route was towards Mazaka and the central provinces. Basically you can expect to fight them another day.
Your own losses have been quite light, centered around the Agema, the Thracians, Galatians and hillmen.
The capture of the royal camp produced 4,000 talents of silver, enough to pay off the pay accumulated for the army, but otherwise it was a rather dull experience as the king had brounght no family or concubines.

After proper celebrations and reperations to the army you finally hve to decide what to do.

1) Chase Mithridates towards Mazaka, and only leave a watching/raiding-force at Sinope. This ensures that he will have trouble recruiting more quality troops, but you do not get control of Sinope, and you might have to go into the mountains if he flees there.

2) Lay siege to Sinope. Taking this potent symbol would be a powerful blow to Mithridates, in itself it is not that important as the treasury is in Mazaka. But you then give him time to recover, perhaps setting the stage for an extended campaign where you have to root out garrisons from mountain strongholds.

[Kraxis]

Remember I set the stage, you choose which option...

Complicated maneuvers are out of the question for the simple reason that they were almost impossible to carry out in battle. It will be simple plans with twists in general.
This is not a perfect scenario of command like TW.

This was an infomertial. Now back to the show.

[Kagemusha]

Again number 1.Chase Mithridates.If you kill the shephard the sheeps are yours.Carry on your plan and dont mislead yourself with secondary targets.The Army of Mithridates hasnt got the Creeks anymore and their morale is low after recent defeat.I wouldnt be suprised if his allies are abandoning him as we speak. :bow:

[Steppe Merc]

I would have chased him. Land itself isn't important, the enemy is. While you wait and besiege, he could have time to regroup. Chase him, and kill him.

[Marshal Murat]

Sorry Kraxis about the deployment.
The treasury is important. If you take the money, what use is the army? you cannot pay it, and the mercenaries he hires will soon leave without the money to back the king up.
If you can cut off the treasury from the king, then only his personal charisma will hold together an army.

[Kraxis]

Don't feel sorry, just don't get ahead of yourself. ~:)

The Chase

As you move out from the camp with the army you detach 2,000 Thracians, the 500 Mysians and the Galatian forces. These are to lay an open siege to Sinope, intercepting troops and caravans, and keep you informed.

With the main army you begin the trek into the interior, following the Pontic forces. For weeks you chase Mithridates about in the highlands, never getting close to Mazaka.
After fighting Pontic delayforces and light troops in the passes you have suffered losses, but you have at the same time removed the confidence from the Pontic leaders and their troops. The fruits of this finally materialize one evening near the frontier with Galatia, a Pontic force of some hundred cavalry enter your camp, at the head of it is a young noble.
Naturally he is brought before you.

"King Antiochus, I am prince Mithridates, son of our late king. Yes, my father has died, no, not because of the wound you gave him in the battle. He was an old and he came to the throne late in his life. It was time for him to leave this world."
As the news sink in you realize what is going on, a dynastic despute, and now one sid is appealing to you. This is promising indeed.
"So, you can guess what I ask for now..."
"Yes, you want an alliance against a usurper to the throne."
"That is right... Am I that transparent? Well, my father's brother, Pharnaces, took the throne in a coup in the last days of my father's life, a disgrace. I have to revenge my father's honour and slay that damn outback farmer. I know your war with Rome isn't going as you hoped, and that the final showdown must come at some point, I pledge to send troops to your efforts."
"I can't give you my answer just yet, young prince, but you may stay in the camp until I have made up my mind."
The prince leaves your tent and you set about looking at what else is going on.

It is now early October, the weather is getting colder, but you believe you have enough time to settle this matter before the winterlull.
In the west the Romans are slowly reducing your garrisons in Greece, it seems likely that any action will save them now. Also the Romans have gotten significant reinforcements, your spies talk about at least another 10,000 troops, but likely more.
On the sea you have had another stroke of luck. Polyxenidas thought about bringing you the Aetolian troops as reinforcements for your depleted light troops. On the way he stumbled upon the Pontic fleet chasing a supply convoy, his 18 Sidonian ships had little trouble in running them down and defeating the 15 Pontic triremes and biremes, sinking 4 and capturing 10, he was thus forced to use the Aetolians to sail the ships back to the Hellespont. On the other hand the Roman fleet has been reinforced to 70 strong.
The Ptolomies have been silent, both on the diplomatic scene and on the borders. It seems they are afraid of your successful campaign in Pontus.
Your mobilization is progressing well, and thousands of phalangites have converged in Sardis and plenty of irregulars are now garrisoned in Antioch, ready to be deployed to the west for the coming fighting with Rome. You have even been reinforced with Galatian and Kappadokian troops directly into the army in Pontus.

None of your advisors see any problem in helping young Mithridates onto the throne, but Kassandros goes even further in that he want to grant Mithridates several thousand troops, and then leave the Pontic campaign in his hands.
Hannibal, deliberate was he is, wants to carry this war out, even into winter if it should be so. While Lysias wants to move up to Mazaka to remove the basis for Pharnaces' power, while helping yourself to the Pontic treasury.

So what to do?

1) Give Mithridates 10,000 troops, including 5,000 phalangites and 1,000 cataphracts. Then leave the fight in his hands while you head for Sardis to organize the growing army, and deal with the revitalized Roman navy. But you do not know how good this Mithridates is at commanding troops. A disaster could make the dual war significantly more problematic.

2) Pursue Pharnaces to the end of the world. It is imperative that Pontus is made stable soon, so that she can supply you with plenty of troops. It might be overkill to do this yourself, and the Romans are massing in the west, and you have no proper general out here.

3) Help Mithdridates in his war, but rather than going after Pharnaces you deal with his powerbase in Mazaka and 'liberate' the Pontic treasury. You risk that Pharnaces just head into the mountains and can become impossible to root out.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

I would say option one.

The Romans are the greatest threat and if Antiochus loses his Greek provinces he will lose a valuable source of men and will have a much more difficult time controlling the Agean.

Would it be possible to send an adept general with Mithridates to ensure that he doesn't totally screw the pooch? If so I would send a trusted and competent general to serve as an advisor and if need be take control of the gifted troops.

[SwordsMaster]

3) Help Mithridates and liberate the treasury.

With the money, the moral of the troops will be higher and a prize on Pharnace's head can be set high enough to keep him from finding a safe place. At the same time war needs money and mercenaries and pirates can be recruited to join the Mithridates' army or keep the roman navy entertained. Thirdly my own troops would not be so prone to sacking the local population if they are paid and fed regularly thus helping mantain the order and discipline. After all how long can one march hungry chasing a bandit through the mountains?

[Kraxis]

Alliance and Return

The prince enters your tent after you had sent for him.
"So prince Mithridates, it seems you are about to become king. I have chosen to support your claim on the throne, but we need to stipulate the alliance with the terms, after all I have control with half your country. That will not be surrendered freely."
The negotiations end up with Mithridates granting you control of the Greek coastal cities in Bithynia and a share in the income of rest of Bithynia. An indemnity of 3000 talents is agreed, in 6 payments of 500, as well as 500 heavy cavalry and 1000 cavalry annually to serve in your army, 300 horses each year and the remianing ships in the navy. In return you agree to protect Pontus in any defensive wars, and to support the dynasty in civil wars. But most importantly you hand over control of 12,000 infantry and 1,500 cavalry. In this there are 6,000 phalangites and the hillmen as well as 1,000 cataphracts and 500 Dahae lights. Obviously you both have good skills at negotiations. You didn't expect to basically make Pontus a protectorate, but you had expected to keep more troops. That young prince is certainly intriguing and of a gentle behaviour, very likeable.

You march back to Sardis through Galatia where even more warriors join up. On the road in southern Galatia you meet up with the eastern army from Antioch.
Even before you are back in Sardis you get the news that Mithidates forced Mazaka to submit and that your screening force at Sinope is heading for Sardis as well, since Sinope has declared herself on the side of the young prince.

You get back to Sardis safely with your now great army. There you pay off the regulars what you owe them (not much though since you managed to pay a lot of it with the silver captured after the battle). The mercenaries are kept enrolled during the winter.
Your army for the coming warseason (190BC) is vast. 59,000 troops in all. 10,000 argyraspids, 15,000 settlerphalangites, 2,000 Cretans, 3,000 Galatian infantry, 6,000 Thracian peltasts, 6,000 Arab warriors, 1,000 Greek heavy peltasts (from the cities), 1,000 Agema cavalry, 4,000 Cataphracts, 1,500 Galatian cavalry, 1,000 heavy Kappadokian cavalry, 4,000 Dahae light cavalry, mostly horse archers, 700 Paphlagonian light cavalry and 800 Mysian light cavalry, not to forget your 22 elephants and 120 scythed chariots. You can't expect Mithridates is able to support you with troops or money just yet, especially considering that Pharnaces had been able to remove the treasury from Mazaka.
Your fleet has been equipped, refitted (mostly the captured ships) and reinforced to 87 ships. You are at sea basically back to square one.

One night, during the darkest hours you fly to your feet. You can't wait for the spring, something has to be done right away. You order food and the presence of Polyxenides and Hannibal.

"Gentlemen, I have a plan! Since we are planning to attack Greece in the spring we need to have bases for our fleet so that it can easier protect the army. So I want us to launch an attack on the Aegean islands, Ikaria and Tenos with Thracian and Galatian troops. Perhaps they will welcome us..."

Hannibal frowns, "Sire, I doubt they will like it. Barbarian troops, a foreign power, a despo... a strong monarch. Well, since I would still prefer the Macedonian approach to teh matter I think the navy would do better protecting the Hellspont and intercepting raiders."

Polyxenides is vivid, "Great idea king of kings! But it is risky. The weather in winter is bad and the Roman fleet is still out there. I think it would be better to simply seek them out and deal with them before landing troops. That would possibly also make the islanders more friendly."

What will it be?

1) Follow your own intuition and strike swiftly at the islands. They might not like it, but so what, they are weak and they have the strong position in the Aegean. Also since it would still be before the normal campaigning season you would have ample time to prove how benevolent you really are. It would be a great combination of of strength and softness. You would show the Greeks you are strong and at the same time a fair ruler, they should flock to you. The risk is that you might get stuck with it while the Romans ranged far and wide.

2) Listen to Hannibal and drop the sea entirely. The navy should not get itself into battle. You wait for spring to attack through Thrace and Macedonia. The risk is that you open up the coast of Asia Minor to attack from the Romans.

3) Let Polyxenides ride the waves and seek out the Roman fleet in a decisive engagement. A fairly conservative choice, you risk the fleet, but your gains would also be small in that the Romans would likely be able to respond in time before you could take advantage of the situation.

[Steppe Merc]

I would use Hannibal's advice. Heck to the sea, use your soldiers to crush the Romans.
You can't afford the islands to be angry at you, and it will take to long to take control of each one. Your forces can defeat the Romans through sheer strength, and the navy battles gain little. Even if you win on the sea, you still have to defeat them on land.

[SwordsMaster]

Damn! Uesugi Kenshin you are faster than I am... :charge:


I would use Hannibal's advice. Heck to the sea, use your soldiers to crush the Romans.

Well, yes, but the expedition would give you some credit and get the Roman fleet to a different part of the sea...

I would send some greek and newly recruited troops to the islands to prove them in battle and set off to the north with the main force. Theoretically if the main army has about 45,000 men the Romans shouldnt be too much of a problem....

And it is always good to have a strong naval base to refit, train and build new ships faster.... And they might provide some plundering too....

Congrats Kraxis! Great idea ~:cheers:

[Steppe Merc]

Perhaps. But the islands would have little gain, while with the mainland you can win far more.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Also the Romans have very good soldiers, and having a decisive victory could prove your strength, dishearten the Romans, cause your enemies to fear for themselves even more (and possibly act upon this by becoming protectorates/allies) and of course the mainland is a far greater prize!

Ah well Swordmaster I porbably won't be able to get it again for quite some time, never usually get on until 10:00pm...

[Kagemusha]

I would take the Islands.If you look at your previous engagement with Roman Navy,You see that the most capable part of it are the Creeks.If you deny The Romans that and even better get those sailors on your side.You can clear the Sea from Romans.Once you have the superioty at Sea you can cut of the Roman army in Creek,by attacking their supply train.That could also make the Inland Creeks to have a another thought on which side to choose. :bow:

[Marshal Murat]

1) is the best option to me given that is you guard the Hellespont, then your coast will be open.
I saw secure your hold on the city states (Magnesia is an example of what will happen to a upstart local and the Romans)

Also, just as some battle info (no formations lol)
Elephants from Rome will be African, yours Indian.
Phalanx is to be held stationary, cause the Romans will try to open holes in the phalanx to use hand to hand.
Antiochus should lead a charge, but learn when to turn around.
Heavy cavalry should be ready to hit hard.
Never put elephants between your phalanx (Magnesia)

[The Wizard]

I would have chosen for 1. It will bring you important bases for invasion into Greece, and if you pull the PR-campaign off quickly and correctly, the Greeks will rise up throughout Hellas against the Romans, which will make it far easier for you to take care of the Romans, who will be away from home with no local support.



~Wiz

[Kraxis]

To the Hellespont

You let Hannibal convince you of the futility of fighting at sea. The recent extremely bloody draw has given you doubts about the power of the navy... The expensive and costly navy. You don't like the immense risks it would take in the adventure, and now Hannibal brings even more argument against it. No, better to strike though the north at the Hellespont.

As soon as possible you begin to march out the massive army. It is powerful and in high spirits after the very successful Pontic campaign, no doubt the Thracian lords will bow down to you.

In Pontus Mithridates chases Pharnaces about, but so far any significant fights have eluded him, and the situation is a bit scary as Pharnaces have plenty of gold and silver to buy almost any mercenary force he would like to buy. He only need to get into contact with them. It brings memories of the history of the Phokian War where Phokis looted the temples at Delphi and used the loot to hire all mercenaries for a grand war with more or less the rest of the Greek world, and did well in it. You shudder at the thought.

The army arrives at Abydos with the navy covering their march there. At once you begin to ferry troops across to Lysimarchea, but after only a day a storm brews up and the effort is halted for some time as the boats are ruined. When the storm dies down you begin to impress all available ships and boats, even the naval vessels not charged with direct protection, that means all the scout vessels and supplyships from further south.
While you had to wait you sent a force of Arabs and Thracians inland to check out the mood of the Thracians. They have now been involved in several skirmishes, but no concerted effort of the Thracians have been visible.

Your spies in Egypt have been telling you that the Egyptian forces are converging in Alexandria, but no target has been given. So far both Hannibal and Lysias expects them to be used for a show of force against the less than compliable natives. A sort of 'The king is strong, don't mess with him'

Interrupted by bad weather, on and off, you manage to ship about half the army across, saving the argyraspids and heavy cavalry for last. Then one day a fast despatch-rider arrives in Abydos. He brings news from the south.

The Romans have landed near the city of Pergamon, capital of a kingdom you haven't got control of, but is quite unfriendly with you. You hadn't expected that Eumenes would actually help the Romans though, so now you are caught on the wrong leg. What you did to Pontus must have scared him you think, "Damn, I should have taken Pergamon before anything else."
What is even worse than having the Roman army in Asia Minor is the fact that is it between you and Sardis where the treasury of the entire Asia Minor region until Tarsos is located. And the news are not stopping there, the Romans afraid of your large army have supported the current army with another legion with allies, bringing the mass up to a total of at least 45,000. The commander of the forces is the rather inexperienced Lucius Cornelius Scipio, but with him are people such as Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus, Marcus Porcius Cato (he had argued for a continual of his command and have been granted it) and Tiberius Sempronius Gracchus. This is indeed a force to fear. Well led and experienced from fighting in Spain and against Carthage.

Hannibal is suddenly vigourous like nothing else. As he paces back and forth he pleads to you to pull back the best forces on the other side of the Hellespont and then march with all speed towards the Romans. Time is of the essence. The Romans wouldn't expect you to get back so fast and it is possible you could get between them and Sardis.
Kassandros, shocked, agrees. But he argues that the entire army would be needed, you can't afford to have the army split like that. His argues that while the Romans might reach Sardis, it should hold out, and even if it doesn't you will recapture the treasury when you defeat them. Send the fleet to impeed their supplies to slow them down. Polyxenides voices his favour for this.
Lysias merely smiles. He then adds calmly that it could hardly be better. The Romans are in an unfriendly state, eating her resources up, weakening her. Greece is open for attack. You should carry on. Have the navy attack the enemy navy away while you negotiates with pirates all over the Aegean to disrupt the then undefended supplylines. If you despatch the Galatians, the Arabs and some of the Dahae with a few Cretans you should be able to harry the Romans enough to halt them or draw them away from the important cities. He would be proud to lead that force himself.

Critical action is needed...

1) Do you let Hannibal have his way and take the best part of your army south. This would exclude the Arabs, Galatians, most of the Dahae and half the Thracians. This would make you slightly outnumbered, but you would still have the elephants and chariots and your tough phalangites. An army perfect for a quick forced march.
The risk is the smaller army, but the surprise and the better control should help you in battle and the speed should make it possible for you to decide the time for battle, and of coruse you protect Sardis.

2) Pull back everything but for some Thracians and Galatians, then move south slowly as the navy does it's best to make trouble for the Roman army. You would then outnumber the Roman army comfortably, and your light cavalry should be able to force a battle of your choosing. You risk though, that Sardis might fall with the treasury.

3) Only send light troops to harry and skirmish with the Romans, trying to pull them away from the main cities. Lysias would control this. Meanwhile you attack into Thrace and Macedon and the navy occupies the Roman navy so that pirates can disrupt enemy supplies. The risks are great, but the rewards can be great too. A cut-off Roman army in hostile territory would soon disintegrate, but at the same time they might weather it and carry on and live offthe land in the richer parts not caring for the harassment of Lysias. Thus woul Asia Minor be lost as you would have no army to stop them.

[Franconicus]

3) Beat the Romans in Greece! Their army in Asia will be negligible then.

[discovery1]

Agreed. Hit them where they aren't, Greece.

[Marshal Murat]

The first option looks tantalizingly like Magnesia!!!
If you attack Greece, the Romans will be in hostile territory. They also have your treasury!
So they would probably make base at Sardis, build a mercenary force and then march to Phrances aid.

Meanwhile, you would be in Greece.
Macedon, I would term lukewarm as you have decided to come around when the Romans are gone.

I have however, just realized, the Scipio Africanus (senior) will soon die. The younger one, will no doubt worry, and become afraid that he will be cut off! He would rush back, and see about you!

[Kagemusha]

Damned Antiochus!You havent only lost your iniative by moving to Hellespontos,but now Romans are in the Asia Minor.Take number 2 now.Your navy can haras romans that they cant get more troops to Pergamon and send a message that you ar coming down there to free them from Romans,so they should seel their gates.While it seems that you are in disadvantage,so are the Romans.They are on a hostile and unknown ground to them.This cals for a deciseve battle. :knight:

[Steppe Merc]

Heh, blame me, not Antiochus! ~;)

I would take the whole army. I would take only the best, but Hannibal the idiot doesn't think agree with me what the best are (leaving half the Dahae? Hah!), so I'd have to take them all with me, which is my whole army.

[Marshal Murat]

I would suggest that. However, if you attack, you will face
A Roman army, superior to your phalanx if your phalanx is on the move.
Elephants of shaky experiance.
Chariots that will be killed by darts and arrows
Local auxiliary cavalry

If you go south, then you face a Magnesia!

[Steppe Merc]

Hardly local. I'd take Dahae over any sort of Greek cavalry, save Thessalian and possibely Macedonian, and any day over what the Romans have.

Or are you saying what the Romans have?

[Kraxis]

Counteroffensive

Lysias continues to word his opinion well and after a short while you are thoroughly convinced. The others still cling on to the hope that you will change your mind and it becomes a regular quarrel.
"ENOUGH!!! I have made up my mind. There is little reason to suspect the Romans can get far in face of both naval and landattacks on their supplies. Sardis and the treasury is safe behind her walls, and sickness will run through the Roman camp when the supplies run out. They will be besieged in the open, the terrain will be our wall of interdiction." Hannibal out of his mind with rage races from the hall. You look after him a while then continues. "While the Romans rot by Sardis we strike into Greece, Thrace is disjoined and Macedon is shell of her former glory. I predict no more than two months before we stand at the Parthenon in Athens, the Romans utterly on the run."

And so it was decided. The very next day you continue to ship troops across, while Lysias, boyant with confidence and satisfaction, takes the light army south to harass the Romans.
Good weather makes the crossing of the army much easier and within a short while all troops are across to Lysimarchea, and you begin the march up the Hellespont.

Just before you, yourself crossed over with the last ship you recieve a message and a gift from Mithridates. It basically read that he had defeated Pharnaces in battle, a minor battle that is, but a victory. Pharnaces is not out cold at all but has apparently recruited enough troops to carry on. Mithridates is sorry that he can't supply you with troops nor release your troops in his service, but he hopes that his gift, taken from a captured enemy will sooth you a little.
The gift is a gilded steppe bow and a bronced gorytos with elaborate images of mythical beasts and men fighting. At once you realize what it is, a weapon taken from a Scythian horse archer of prominent stature. The only way the enemy would have had one such was if he had been a Scythian noble himself. Anybody else would have sold it or made it a gift to their leader, in this case Pharnaces, and Pharnaces wasn't even at the battle. It seems the mercenaries are finally arriving in Pontus... From the north.

Lysias quickly sends messengers to you that he quickly met the Roman forces, marching north to meet him. Their cavalry couldn't do much damage and the entire army marched south again when it realized he would not fight openly.

Your own progress through Thrace is met with determined resistance from the locals. Every now and then they would attack the army at night with torches, slings and javelins. While it didn't cause much damage to be attacked by a couple hundred warriors it certainly drained the men deprived of sleep. At day the locals would hide in the hills and mountains.
Your diplomats sent to the Thracians lords return with only halfhearted replies of peace and loyalty. Obviously your are not that popular here.
Your progress is slow and without much luck. It rains, turning the roads and paths to mud and he land can't support you, while the supplytrain is constantly raided. You are however supplied from the sea.

Polyxenides, opposed to the plan did try to sever the Roman sypplies, but these turned out to be far fewer than expected. Then he turned to face the Roman fleet chasing him while waiting for the pirates to take over. These never came as they preferred the lax Roman attitude on the sea to your more aggressive hunting.
In the battle, that was fought outside Miletos your navy suffered a catastrophic defeat. Polyxenides had tried to line up his ships but had found the Roman fleet en echelon, which gave it an advantage in that it's Rhodian squadron could fight it out alone as the other ships didn't dare to attack them from fear of the flanking attacks of the echelon. Finally the entire Roman fleet attacked as the Rhodians broke through. In the ensuing rout your fleet was nearly wiped out. Of the 85 ships (two were unfit for battle), a staggering 80 were captured or sunk, Polyxenides himself was killed fighting the Rhodians, and a mere 5 Roman ships were sunk, though all were Rhodian. Poor Polyxenides was simply outmaneuvered and outclassed as admiral. Among the survivors is the young captain that proposed the unconventional tactic at Imbros, at the only senior officer left he is now in charge of the remnants.

The same day as you recieved the news of the illfated battle at sea a messenger arrived from Lysias, Sardis was under siege... And his harrassment was obviously not distracting the Romans. Several times he had himself almost been killed in wellplanned ambushes by small Roman detachments. Obviously the concentrated experience of the three leaders (Scipio the younger is most likely sidelined) is taking its toll on your men. Lysias even reports that he at times feel like it is his army that is harrassed, not the other way round.
With these two news arriving at the same time, while you are stuck in Thrace between Phillippoi and Amphipolis, you suffer a period of illness. The news were simply too tough to take at once.

To make matters worse Philip V of Macedon has brough what troops he has eastwards to guard the crossing of the river Strymon.

Hannibal and Kassandros sits by you during your illness, not because they are very loyal men, but because they are trying to influence you.
Hannibal urges you to head back at once, again with the faster and more loyal troops. The rest of the army will occupy Amphipolis and simply try to make a living from there. He argues that with the utter defeat of your navy you can't expect more supplies from the rear, at least when the Romans finally get up here.
Kassandros is much in agreement with Hannibal, but he is favour of a total retreat. Leaving less than loyal troops to guard a city like Amphipolis is just ripe for desertment or at least bribes.

The situation is very bad, what to do?

1) Head back and connect with Lysias with the most loyal and strongest troops. This means leaving behind the the Kappadokian cavalry, some of the Thracians (luckily they are from Asia Minor and have little trouble fighting the locals), 4,000 settlerphalangites, the chariots (they are tough to transport across the sea) and the heavy peltasts. In all 8,000 troops. When you connect with Lysias you will be slightly stronger in numbers. By doing it this way you might have a chance to force the Romans to break off the siege, but they might also soon storm the city.

2) Head back with the entire army. While this makes the army strong for a confrontation with the Romans it is also slower, and it is not likely to save Sardis. Further, it will also be longer in Thrace without supplies if the Romans find your sealanes soon.

3) Continue on with the entire army. Sardis is lost anyway. Why not get some Greek allies and get to beat up on Phillip? Problem is just that you have lost a lot of prestige on letting the Romans invade and lay siege to Sardis, while you have been on 'vacation' in Thrace.

[Kagemusha]

Situation is indeed bad.You have outmanouvered your self.This Campaign is starting to look like "tour the Aegean".There really are no good alternatives,but i would take number 3.You cant win a war by walking around.In this point your Navy is crushed and the Romans are sieging your treasury.Crush Macedon while you still have an army. Now that the Romans are expecting you it would be a suicide to go against them without your Kataphrakts and chariots. Only hope for Sardis at this point is plague among Romans.I wouldnt be suprised if next you will be attacked by the Egyptians. :bow:

[Marshal Murat]

Number 3? I'd say 1
Your sealanes will be lost soon, and Sardis, your gold treasury will soon be lost. Pontus will soon be assaulted by the Scythians. Your army must return.
You will be cut off from your supply wagons.
(I'm suprised Hannibal isn't fuming about Philip and his lateness with his wars)
Phillip may join, but your setting yourself up to be Hannibal all over again.
Cut off from your main city, with good troops, but facing anti-Seleucid feelings.

http://www.barca.fsnet.co.uk/magnesia-190bc.htm
this is a link to the battle of Magnesia, and look at it hard, review the tactics and see what you think about the possibility of winning if Antiochus had controlled his cavalry (like Raphia, you think he would learn)!?

[Kraxis]

Just a few corrections (as I can't understand Murat properly).

The Kappadokians are only 1,000 strong, heavy yes, but not the cataphracts. There are still 5,000 cataphracts in the main army.

Phillip is marching to fight you if you to cross the river.
His army (forgot to mention how big it was) is 32,000 strong. 20,000 phalangites, 8,000 light troops and 4,000 cavalry of which about half is heavy.

So if this changes the view, you are entitled to change your opinion.

[Kagemusha]

I would still attack the Macedonians.Philip isnt anymore what he used to be and if i would be the Roman Admiral i would destroy the Seleucid army while they are trying to cross the Hellespontos.I see that only hope is to have an deciseve victory against Macedon.After that im sure that the Creeks would rebel against the Romans and Thracians would have necessery fear towards you so they would provide troops to you. :bow:

[Marshal Murat]

The link is to try and support my argument in some form or another...
You outnumber Phillip, but I don't know if your phalanx could win in an assault against another on a river.

[discovery1]

It's too dangerous to try and cross the hellespont with your navy destroyed. I say march against the Macedonians. Their army isn't as strong as yours, and i think you have more cavalry to boot and a phallanges based army is easier to beat than a legion I think.

[Kraxis]

Pressing on

After three days in the bed, you basically jump up. "This can't be it! We move out at once! Philip needs a lesson."

At once the entire army moves out with you in the van. Your newfound vigour drives it on with speed, and within a short while the river Strymon is in sight. Beyond it the camp of Philip's army.

Not surprisingly the prodromoi have stationed themselve on your side of the river and begin to harry you as you set up camp. You look around for the remaining Dahae or the other light cavalry. In your rush to get on, these troops have been stationed in the rear, some of them for the obvious reason to counter the Thracian raiders, the others simply because they were on the far side of camp and ended up in the rear. You fume at the situation and station the elephants between the prodromoi and your camp. The archers and javelineers on the big animals' backs give a good show for themselves and the prodromoi fall back because their horses become more skittish.

The first night you saddle up in the most splendid armour and march out with your bodyguards and your advisors. As you come to the crossing the Macedonian pickets challenge you and you reply that you wish to have a little chat with Philip. As one of the men race back to the Macedonian camp you are forced to wait for a good while. Finally he returns and lets you cross.

In the tent of he Macedonian king you notice the lack of most of the luxuries you carry around, and expected any king to have with him. Just a chair for him and you of course, a table with a map and a bed in the rear with some pelts. No armours, no weapons, no gifts on display, no drinking cups and no bathtub. You frown at this lack of display, and take it as the result of bad economy.
"So Antiochus, have you come to seek terms?"
"You might say that Philip. I want you to join me."
"Hah! You can't expect me to just join you, what is in it for me?"
"I will help you regain Thrace, Thessalia and Epirus."
"That is a nice offer, but what makes you expect that you can take all that?"
"My army Philip."
"Your army? The one rife with desertion? Your mercenaries don't believe in you anymore and your settlers are afraid that you are abandoning their homes to the Romans. Besides the Greeks have lost their like for you, your failure to respond to the Romans have really pushed them off. They fear that you will just set up a new regime in Greece give heck to the rest of your domain. They actually prefer the Romans now. You know how fickle those haughty Greeks are, always backing the winning chariot."
"The Greeks will know power soon enough, and know that the Romans are not winning."
"Tell them that, but I doubt they will believe you, especially now that Sardis has fallen."
The taste in your mouth suddenly goes disgusting and bitter, you feel the blood rushing from your face. You begin to breathe heavily as you look around at your little escort og Hannibal and Kassandros. Kassandros is looking away in shame, Hannibal is looking at you with that superior look that says 'I told you so'.
"What will it be Philip?!?!" is all you get out.
"I have to refuse your offer. You know, I'm much like the Greeks, I don't back the losing chariot either. Now leave."

You burn with fury at both your men and at Philip. He had recieved the news of the fall of Sardis before you did and he had the nerve to throw you out just like that. Now only battle can be done, and you don't like that at all. He is right that the army is grumbling and there has been desertions, but it is still big enough to outnumber him comfortably, and you have elephants and chariots. But the terrain favours him with two small woods on either side he can fill up the gap easily with his army. And the crossing is not all that wide really. But that is only for the infantry, you have noticed that cavalry can cross further up and down, and elephants can cross the river in any spot nearby.

Back in camp you turn on Kassandros, wanting an explaination for the lack of news. He guiltily tell you that he has been holding the news bck from you as he knew that you wouldn't take it well, especially after the illness. Sardis surrendered quickly as the garrison knew you wouldn't be coming anytime soon. In return the Romans didn't plunder the city and kill/enslave the population. And at the very moment they are marching down south to get at Ephesus, Miletus and Halicarnassus. Further Mithridates had won another battle against Pharnaces, but this was a close thing and the Scythians are beginning to tell. In your name Kassandros has called up the Greek troops from the Bithynian coast to help Lysias as well as drawing more troops from the eastern provinces. For an hour you barrage him with threats and insults, but in the end you simply haven't got the strength to kill him. Finally it is time to set the strategy for the next day. You all agree that rivercorssings is not the place for the chariots.

Hannibal is in favour of a more classical battle. There is little room to maneuver so you have to face them head on. His plan is to position the heavy cavalry on the right, all of it and he elephants and light cavalry on the left. The elephants should provide a bulwark for the light cavalry against the Macedonian heavy cavalry. While your heavy cavalry should plow right through the Macedonian light cavalry, and have enough men to slice up the Macedonian army afterwards. If you are lucky you need not even move the infantry.
Kassandros want the elephants to lead an assault on the heavy cavalry on the left flank, supported by the Agema and half the cataphracts. On the right he wants a combination of light cavalry and cataphracts.
You yourself have a not small love for odd tactics, and this time you are sure they fit well. You will leave the army under the control of Hannibal, who is then supposed to hold the attention of the Macedonians while you cross with the Agema a selected body of captaphracts of 700 and the Mysians, further down the river into the forest there. From there you will turn and hit the Macedonians in the flank from the forest.

So what will you do?

1) Play the conventional battle of Hannibal. Attack on the right and defend on the left. Have the infantry hang back until the right moment. Light infantry will of course be out front. Especially the Cretans might come in handy there. There is hardly any risks in this, except if Philip doen't play along nice and position his troops conventionally, even then you should overpower him. What speaks for this is the fact that this can hardly fail, there is not a chance your troops will bungle up anywhere.

2) Attack the enemy at his strongest. Let the elephants attack the Macedonian Companions supported by the Agema and half the cataphracts on the left. Again the center will hang back. The risks are that if Philip doesn't position his Companions there they might break through the weakened right flank. But if you crush the Companions right away the rest of the army will crumble, also this will bring you into contact with Philip himself.

3) Do a sneaky maneuver through the forest downriver while Hannibal holds their attention with repositionings and feints, until finally they attack when you emerge from the forest into the flank of the Companions.

[Kagemusha]

no 1.I would follow Hannibals strategy,put your elephants to work. :bow:

[Marshal Murat]

Boy are you fast (I think hehe)
I have to agree with him here. If you assault the wrong cavalry you lose the advantage.
The feint would probably fail, 'cause you might hit a weaker army, and the Companions could be somewhere else.

[Steppe Merc]

I'd flank them, or failing that, hit them with your heavy cav at their strongest.

[Kraxis]

Battle of the Strymon

You can't make up your mind, so you choose to sleep on it.
In your sleep you dream of an eagle perched on the arm of Hannibal, then flies off towards Philip who stands in the distance, circles him thrice, then returns to Hannibal with a hare in its talons.
As you wake up you can but chose one tactic, the dream was clear, victory would be yours if you followed Hannibal's advise.

The army marches out to the banks of the river, at this time of year, high summer, it is hardly more than a large stream, but the banks are far and fairly sloped.
Even before you have moved the entire army out Philip has his army out and almost ready. The Macedonians were so fast that you actually fear they might attack your undeployed forces, but Philip is honourable you remember.

The Cretans at the front at once began to shower the enemy with arrows, the Thracians protecting them from a counterattack by the Macedonian light troops. Meanwhile the phalanx formed up behind them, the elephants on he left with the light cavalry, Lastly the heavy cavalry got onto their assigned battlepositions from their protective positions.

To your surprise Philip has not deployed conventionally. Instead he has some heavier light troops cover the left flank, with the light cavalry behind them. This complicates things a bit, but you quickly transfer the Greek heavy skirmishers to oppose them. Under cover of the Cretans they advance with their shields up and javelins at the ready. Suddenly they retreat, then halt again before beginning to advance once more. Then they do it again, but this time a bit closer to the enemy. They continue this a few times until it is too much for the Macedonian light troops and they charge out. The Greeks stop dead and engage the Macedonians in melee. You raise your xyston and lower it towards the enemy, you fly out with the Agema behind you and the cataphracts that would fit next to you. The rest followed suit.
Out in the open, out of formation the Macedonian light troops were massacred by your heavy cavalry and you carry on against the light cavalry, now moving into the vacant position. At once they fall back skirmishing and you chase them a short while.

On the other flank Philip attacks but his heavy cavalry reels back from the elephants and your light cavalry send them flying back where they are saved by some light infantry. Hannibal halts the assault and await the development.

As you chase the Prodromoi about the Greek heavy skirmishers have moved up and you can now let them deal with the Prodromoi. You form the heavy cavalry up for a charge on the Macedonian phalangites, but you leave them to their own devises as you see cavalry moving about on the other flank. Fearing that Philip might get away you charge headlong at him with the Agema. The cataphracts are unsure of what to do right away, and the phalngites begin to form up in big squares, impossible to assault for cavalry.

Hannibal sees the dustcloud moving with speed behind the enemy line towards his flank. That can only mean the impetouos king has once more headed for the enemy leader. He orders general advance then charges the elephants at the Companions with the light cavalry out front to deal with the light infantry.

Faced with this twopronged assault the Companions seek shelter within the nearest big square. Meanwhile the Macedonian light infantry are ripped apart by the Agema and light cavalry.
The open frontline now disrupts your phalanx as some parts are advancing too far while others are fighting. You sense the battle is finished and you order the phalanx to halt the attack and you surround the entire army.

After an hour like this you close with the Macedonian army.
"Brave men of Macedon! I see that you have not lost the discipline of Alexander's legendary pezhetaroi. Join us, you will become masters of Greece."
For a while silence answers you, then an aged voice booms out.
"Join you? Join a falling empire? Not a chance." To this the result is a roar of the battlecry Alalalalalalai. The Macedonians would not join you it seems.
Let down once more you order the light troops to shower the Macedonians from all angles. Even the elephants move closer to let their archers fire down into the dense formations. This goes on for hours until you run out of ranged weapons. This time the Macedonians agree to a surrender, but they won't join you at all. Even Philip surrenders

As you discuss the terms of peace, Philip asks "why make war on Macedonia when you have a large Roman army ravaging your own country?"
"Because they will never survive over there, it is a hostile territory and we are intercepting much of their supplies."
"Obviously you don't know the Romans. They take a pride in not having a need for supply trains. They won't fall for this, they live off the land."
You continue the discussions and end up with Macedonia breaking off her alliance with Rome and allowing Seleucid armies to travel freely across her territory for 100 years to come. But that is as far as you can pressure him. Macedonia is simply not budging further, and you haven't got time for an extended campaign in Macedonia.
As Philip leaves you get the message that your supplylines have been cut by the Roman fleet. Another tells you that the cities in Asia Minor are surrendering a soon as the Romans get close. Already Ephesus and Miletus have surrendered and Pergamum is laying siege to Abydos. Your power is fast corroding. The news are kept entirely from the troops, but the locals will eventually find out and then the troops will know too. Also, the eastern provinces, always problematic for Seleucid rulers, would go into outright rebellion if they knew that your army was stranded in Greece and a large Romans army was capturing your Asia Minor holdings.

As you move across Macedonia you don't exactly get a cheering from the Macedonian population, who had almost loved you previously. You are not opposed but the supply situation is critical and you are forced to demand supplies from Philip, or plunder the locals. Of course he agrees to supply you, but you had preferred to keep him out of this, not wanting to make him an important tool.
Even as you emerge from the Tompe pass you get news of the capture of Halicanassus and that Lysias have been captured trying defend a pass with his dwindling army.
At this you are surprised as his army was supposed to have grown with the Greek units from Bithynia and the garrisons from the east. Something is truly going wrong.

You call in Kassandros and Hannibal for a council of war. Both agree that the capture of Greece is not worth the loss your entire empire. Your hold on Greece would at best be uncertain, and with no local powerbase it would soon end, further you would still be the enemy of Rome,which would haev lost nothing to you. They advise that peace with Rome would be best, you simply have no means to stop them from actually marching all the way to Antioch.
You on the other hand want to march in to Epirus, capture the Roman controlled cities there, possibly collect a fleet of transports and then land in Italy. You know it is a forlorn hope to actually get Rome to admit defeat but a few Roman cities would be a great bargaining tool.

What do you do?

1) Seek peace at once so you can get you army home and settle all internal issues, and the Pontic war of succession.

2) Head for Epirus in the hope that you can cross over to Italy and take a few cities. Peace would be much easier and lenient in that case.

[Steppe Merc]

2) Head for Epirus in the hope that you can cross over to Italy and take a few cities. Peace would be much easier and lenient in that case.
I would do this one. Never seek peace with Rome!

[discovery1]

Taking a few Roman cities won't help, but even if you do get peace with Rome you know they will be back. If you do get peace now, at least you will be able rebuild your fleet and maybe reputation and strengthen your armies. But they will want Hannibal probably.Hmmm, then again, maybe having Hannibal again on Italian soil will be enough to scare the Romans into peace. But what if you can't get transports? I say peace with Rome.

[Steppe Merc]

Why make peace with them? You can beat them.

[discovery1]

You know Rome will only give up if their city itself is occupied, well Hannibal might scare them. But what if the ships you need to capture don't show up? I guess you could still make peace, maybe.

[Marshal Murat]

If you make peace, they will demand Hannibal, who will promptly commit suicide.
Landing in Italy does nothing, for if anything the Romans have learned that a enemy cut off, is one who will lose.

If you do land on Italian soil head to Tarentum, or Croton, and build a base there, and march to Rome. They are stubborn, and will burn the land around them.

[Geoffrey S]

Yeah, peace with Romans generally isn't very longlasting; the point of losing Hannibal is also to be considered.
I'd settle for 2, force the Romans to defend themselves.

[Kraxis]

The Forlorn Hope

The prospects of a humiliating peace suits you very badly. You dismiss the advise of your two trusted advisors.
"We would lose too much if we settled for peace now. Can you imagine what those ruthless Romans would demand? It would be outrageous. I would lose all basis for power. Not only have I failed in protecting Asia Minor and I have managed to go for peace without a single battle of armies with Rome. I can't let that happen. We move for Epirus at once!"
"Bassileus, it is not wise. The army is grumbling, they have gotten word of the disasters in Asia Minor."
"So much more the need for action now. They need to be occupied with war, they need to feel that they are doing something."

And so you settle it. The army begin its advance across Thessaly and it is harried by the Thessalian cavalry and by the local light troops. The passes into Epirus is open and undefended, but on the other side you find the Romans have sent detachments to halt you at chokepoints, and you end up snailing ahead fighting the cohorts facing you. Your much superior numbers eventually overwhelm the Roman troops and they retreat to Donona. You on the other hand seek down to the coast to get hold of the coastal cities and their ships, all the way down into Akarnania. For three months you range up and down the coast seeking a proper fleet to carry you, but in the end you have only scraped together some 45 transports, and you are now sitting firmly in Apollonia, but news from the east have been very bad. In Pontus Mithridates have lost a battle against the mercenary army of Pharnaces, and he has lost control of Sinope and most of the coast. Media and the other eastern provinces have gotten wind of the situation and are at the moment in revolt, and have basically won their independance. The Romans are now not very far from Kilikia and Tarsos, they have been very harsh against the Macedonain settlements. In face of these problems a pretender has taken the throne in Antioch is scambling to assemble a proper army to face off with all these problems. Your rule in the east is over.
The army has been suffering great losses to desertment, and basically all the eastern heavy cavalry have left you, some have even surrendered to the Romans in engagements they could have won easily.

You finally impress smaller ships and fishingboats, as well as you manage to strike a deal with the Illyrian pirates to help you across.
In early October they arrive at Apollonia and you give the order to embark for Italy. The troops refuse.
"Antiochus, we will go no further. You have sent us on a wild goosechase while you have let our homes get ravaged, our families get butchered and our land get looted and burned. You have shyed away from battle with the Romans twice, seeking to fight weaker enemies in face of their onslaught. Your fear of them has caused us great harm."
"What do you think I'm am planning now? We are going to strike at Italy, the home of the Romans!"
"You told us that we were going to strike the soft underbelly of the Romans when we crossed the Hellespont! What happened to that?!?"
"That is where we are going now!"
"In pirateships, lead by untruthful barbarians, with no naval ships ready to protect us!"
"The Roman fleet is in the Aegean! Are you going to back down now that we are at the most critical hour?! Are you cowards with no stomach for a proper fight?! I tell you, we will cross with great speed, no storms will stop us, and the Romans can't do a thing about it!"
Just then a rider appears screaming: "THEY ARE COMING!!! THEY ARE COMING!!! THE ROMAN FLEET IS COMING!!!"
The soldiers look at each other, then at you, before the leader speaks up again. "Time to end this Antiochus, we have no choice left."
With that they draw their swords...

With Antiochus dead and the Seleucid army surrendered, the Romans made their peace with the pretender, Demetrius. The Seleucid Empire would pull back to Kilikia and pay a huge indemnity as well as at most have 20 ships of war in their fleet. The Romans on the other hand would help Demetrius confirm his position by helping him suppress the rebellions.
In Pontus Mithridates was soon killed by the Seleucid troops when he wouldn't let them go, and the kingdom fell to Pharnaces.
Egypt siezed the chance and got back most of Coile Syria and Phoenecia, while Demtrius was occupied with the rebels.

For centuries afterwards historians would argue what drove Antiochus III to his Greek campaign rather than face off with the Roman army. Glory, fear and even misguided strategic advises were to be given as possible causes. But in the end they could give no proper explaination for how a man could let a large and strong empire fall and become a rump of what it had been previously.

[discovery1]

Ouch. That didn't go well. I told you it was a bad idea not to make peace. Then again, I gave a lot of bad advice earlier.

Now, anyone willing to do another?

[Franconicus]

~:mecry: It is all my fault! ~:mecry:
But hail to Kraxis. This was big fun and a great work.
Shallwe start a new one? :knight:

[Kraxis]

Trust me, it was not you alone... There were quite a few instances where the 'wrong' choice was made.

Remember, I'm a person like the rest of you, and I have a feeling of what is the right choice all along. Everytime there is a 'right' and a 'wrong' choice, and I was surprised at the times when you guys put me on the wrong foot here. ~:cheers: It was a good challenge to actually make up the instances I hadn't thought out as well.

There won't be a new Interactive History just yet. I simply don't know what to pick, and I need to research a bit before jumping into it. I don't like to make up things too much, I want to have a basis of knowledge and from that draw the line.

[King Henry V]

Hey Kraxis, would I have your permission to do something set during the Middle Ages? It's my historical speciality.

[Marshal Murat]

Can you tell us where we went wrong???

[Kagemusha]

This was a great thread Kraxis! ~:cheers:
I hope you put another one here ,when you find an intresting subject. :bow:

[Flavius Clemens]

It made for great reading. If only the tactics and strategy in the game could be as sophisticated.

[Kraxis]

Henry, be my guest. I don't pretend to hold any right to this sort of storytelling (well it isn't really much more than that).
Of course I believe that it would be best if you didn't use Interactive History as the title as it might cause some confusion, also if you are successful I might pull you down to my level. :antlers:


Well Murat, to be honest you guys basically made the 'wrong' turn most of the time. For the most part I merely had to adapt (and that was a good challenge), but at some point it was nigh impossible to get out again, and then the road to destruction was almost set.
I don't think it would be productive if I was to mention each time I believed someone chose the wrong turn. Obviously the person had his reasons, and to directly say 'you are wrong, because you just are' is not very productive in my view. Rather the results speak for themselves, and I thought I made small mentions in my chapters when I thought a choice was especially bad. Of course since in my view it persisted perhaps I wasn't direct enough. But hey, the true world doesn't always tell us when we go wrong until long after.

[Kagemusha]

Henry, be my guest. I don't pretend to hold any right to this sort of storytelling (well it isn't really much more than that).
Of course I believe that it would be best if you didn't use Interactive History as the title as it might cause some confusion, also if you are successful I might pull you down to my level. :antlers:


Well Murat, to be honest you guys basically made the 'wrong' turn most of the time. For the most part I merely had to adapt (and that was a good challenge), but at some point it was nigh impossible to get out again, and then the road to destruction was almost set.
I don't think it would be productive if I was to mention each time I believed someone chose the wrong turn. Obviously the person had his reasons, and to directly say 'you are wrong, because you just are' is not very productive in my view. Rather the results speak for themselves, and I thought I made small mentions in my chapters when I thought a choice was especially bad. Of course since in my view it persisted perhaps I wasn't direct enough. But hey, the true world doesn't always tell us when we go wrong until long after.

Im sorry to bother you,but was the second trip to Creece the greatest stategicall error that lead to the defeat? :bow:

[Marshal Murat]

I'd say yes,
The Greeks were against you having abandoned them to the Romans.
The Romans were able to land in Anatolia
You outnumbered the Romans

Antiochus should have attacked south, and with overwhelming numbers he could have beaten the Romans.


Anyway, I had two ideas for some other interactive stories.
Sulla, just as he is about to attack Greece with the Pontus invaders, and Marius stirs up trouble!

Or visa versa, where your Pontus, and you have taken Athens and you can either march to Macedon, or elsewhere.

[Kagemusha]

I'd say yes,
The Greeks were against you having abandoned them to the Romans.
The Romans were able to land in Anatolia
You outnumbered the Romans

Antiochus should have attacked south, and with overwhelming numbers he could have beaten the Romans.


So at one point we were both right. ~:cheers:

[Uesugi Kenshin]

You encountered the same problem that the Romans encountered when fighting Hannibal using the 2 consul system. One day one was trying to get into a battle and the next the other was avoiding a battle.

[Kraxis]

Lets just say that it was one of the worst cases. But not a single one was a cause for the downfall, and almost to the end they could have been reversed, at least partially. The last choice would have lead to two versions of defeat (even acknowledged by Antiochus himself ~;)), one very bad and one where the furture held some promiss.

I know too little about Pontus and Sulla. But I didn't invent the death of Mithridates III, he did die around the time of his death here (a perfect case for me to jump at).

I'm thinking about a campaign of Tiberius Sempronius Gracchus in Spain, but it really is limited and we have all those rather complicated republican politics, and Gracchus was a very proper Roman. So in effect it would be quite short before the Senate pulled him home.

Perhaps Ceasar in Gaul. There are enough forks on the road for it to end in disaster, but outside the tribes directly in his path we know very little.

Argh... It is not easy.

[Marshal Murat]

Ceaser would be nice, however, lots of people are well versed in the history, and it would be very easy to determine the correct choice.

[Kraxis]

Yes that is a also a problem. But the option is there to change a few things, such as I did with Hannibal's Fate where he had won Zama. But honestly I do not know where to do that and make it strong enough, but not too strong. A Gaul victory at Alesia would be downright disasterous and so on... It was really a balance act done very well by Ceasar himself.

[Steppe Merc]

Well, it's better to die in a blaze of glory than to make peace with Romans. Ah well. :embarassed:
Sorry, all!

[The Wizard]

How about having the next Interactive History be about Lucius Lucinius Lucullus? Not just any given point in his illustrious career, but most importantly his dilemma when Pompey was coming to the East after defeating the pirates in the Mediterranean, demanding that Lucullus surrender his position as proconsul of the East, and that after so many great successes. In my opinion this is an excellent scenario with a great many choices.

The problem is of course Lucullus' relationship with his troops. This is the fulcrum of the scenario -- could he have gotten his troops to support him and go on with him, and as such start a civil war, or was it simply impossible and was there no other choice than what happened in history?



~Wiz

[Marshal Murat]

How about, what if a larger portion of Phyrrus fleet landed at Tarentum?
Hannibal kills the younger Scipio when his father dies?
Philip joins Hannibal?
The maniples are not detached at Cylescophele?
(i've got to go on hehehe)
Caeser isn't assasinated?
Something about Teutenburger Massacre?

Just suggestions from a rambler.

[Geoffrey S]

How about having the next Interactive History be about Lucius Lucinius Lucullus?
Nice one. Having read about him recently he does have the interesting dilemma of being an excellent commander who is less liked by his troops than Pompey was. Could be a good one.
Perhaps a what-if with Alcibiades staying with Athens? Or Pompey against Ceasar? Or maybe even Vercingetorix against Ceasar?

[Kraxis]

How about, what if a larger portion of Phyrrus fleet landed at Tarentum?
Hannibal kills the younger Scipio when his father dies?
Philip joins Hannibal?
The maniples are not detached at Cylescophele?
(i've got to go on hehehe)
Caeser isn't assasinated?
Something about Teutenburger Massacre?

Just suggestions from a rambler.

Hmmm... Good to have suggestions.
Pyrrhus had a large enough army, he was simply beaten with losses (though there are indicators that he wasn't beaten at Beneventum bur rather had a draw). Pyrrhus as an Interactive History is problematic. He did the right thing, yet it went wrong. Yes he could have stayed in Italy and not gone to Sicily, but nothing indicates that he wouldn't have suffered more pyrrhis victories where the Romans would have been able to come back soon again. So the choices are limited with him.

Hannibal kills young Publius, that will just result in a campaign like the one I made for the first Interactive History (set at the victory of Cannae).

Philip joining Hannibal could have been interesting, but the Roman fleet was in control and it seems unlikely that he would try to ship over with no fleet and the Roman fleet patroling the sea.

At Cynoscephalae the Roman would have won eventually. While the left flank was under pressure, the result would likely have been like Pydna. THe Romans would get pushed back until the phalanx was broken by the rising and broken terrain. Roman losses would have been much greater and the Macedonian losses quite a lot fewer, but the result would politically be the same.

Being in control of the burgeoning Roman Empire seems to be too 'eas'y, at least militarily. Politically I'm not good enough, but hey this might be a great chance for someone else. ~:cheers:

I guess a short Interactive History as Varus could be done, but it is very well known and people wouldn't find it hard to pick the correct choices. But I will remember this one.


When I lay down to sleep I actually remembered an Interactive History I ahd thought about after the second installment. One about Manstein just after his successful counteroffensive in 43. He advocated a quick offensive against Kursk. And this one would really be about using the correct way to persuade others, recruit or ignore people and so on.

[Kraxis]

Ohh, forgot.

I'm afraid I know too little about LLL, also the situation is a bit constrained. What would he do? Go to war? He didn't have any territories to recruit proper troops from, and he wasn't all that well liked. It seems he would have been in deep trouble if he chose to oppose Pompey militarily. "I have my army, and you have the empire and endless potential for new armies."

[The Wizard]

What about Sertorius in the civil war? There are a great many possibilities, and Sertorius certainly was a capable general. Not only that, but his struggle was unique to say the least, and, in the beginning, had quite the chance of success.



~Wiz

[pezhetairoi]

this thread has me hooked...

[AntiochusIII]

Oh god! No! Look what happened when I was missing! JUST a few months missing! And LOOK what happened! Unbelievable! NOW I'm defeated by WHINY LITTLE Romans (and killed by mutiny)! NO!

~D

Hmm...Kraxis, may I ask you to tell me what will happen if the player (the audience, etc.) choose to attack Egypt instead of Pontus?

[pezhetairoi]

I say Kraxis, let's have another! I never had a chance to make a choice--beaten by all the others to the draw :( let's have another! This is an interesting exercise in historical conjecture.

[Kraxis]

I'm back for a notice here... :balloon2:


Oh god! No! Look what happened when I was missing! JUST a few months missing! And LOOK what happened! Unbelievable! NOW I'm defeated by WHINY LITTLE Romans (and killed by mutiny)! NO!

~D

Hmm...Kraxis, may I ask you to tell me what will happen if the player (the audience, etc.) choose to attack Egypt instead of Pontus?
Egypt... Well, that was the 'wrong' choice for that particular chapter. That would have meant a disasterous invasion into Egypt (sickness and stalemate) while the Romans invaded Asia Minor and thus beat your leaderless army there. Basically you would have the result of Magnesia without the battle itself. But as with the others it would only have been a temporary setback if the 'right' choices were then made after it. Who knows, maybe the west could be taken back? I only made the stuff up as I went.

[Azi Tohak]

Ah poo! I find this thread after it is all done with! I didn't even know this thing existed ~:mecry:

This is neat though Kraxis, thank you for putting it on. Made for some interesting reading this morning. :bow:

Azi

[AntiochusIII]

I'm back for a notice here... :balloon2:


Egypt... Well, that was the 'wrong' choice for that particular chapter. That would have meant a disasterous invasion into Egypt (sickness and stalemate) while the Romans invaded Asia Minor and thus beat your leaderless army there. Basically you would have the result of Magnesia without the battle itself. But as with the others it would only have been a temporary setback if the 'right' choices were then made after it. Who knows, maybe the west could be taken back? I only made the stuff up as I went.Thanks for answering. :bow: I expected it so, but, well, being a reckless player of R:TW...

It seems that the "right" choice, though, is easier to recognize in many situations than what it seems if people have time to think thoroughly. At least in this chapter of "interactive history." The right choice for Antiochus all along seems to be going on the line of "be on offensive with confidence when circumstance gives, using his kingdom's massive manpower and wealth to full effect, but never go reckless and got isolated/delayed/occupied/etc for whatever overly ambitious campaigns you are tempted in...such as Egypt, the full-scale invasion of Macedonia, etc." I believe so because he was a strong ruler and while his land is extremely rebellious, a strong ruler who is near can quell down the rebellious thoughts. Also, as long as he stays in near Asia Minor, which is the key to this war, practically, he would be able to respond to all changes. And if he holds it he would always have a comeback chance, which all its wealth and diverse manpower resource and all. Antioch, the capital, was just "over the mountains" from Asia Minor and Greece is, well, just "over the sea." ~D

Or so I presume...

However, I am still wondering his true intentions in this war. What did he want out of it? A complete control over Greece and Macedonia? Just lands in Thrace he "claims?" A crippling success, or even total victory, over Rome? Or just enough to beat Rome back far enough to keep him (and all his ambitious plans I don't really doubt he possessed over Egypt and such) safe and sound?

Hmm...

[Kraxis]

Nice analysis there, and yes that pretty much says it.

I tried to hide teh 'right' choices every time but still make it visible if you took your time. Of course the trouble is people want to be the first so they don't have the time. If they think it over somebody else will jump at it. That is part of the challenge. Can you analyse the situation in a rush?
Of course there has been a significantly bigger interest here than at the .com initially. There people often had th time to respond, and that is part of the reason for the failed outcome here, or at least that is my theory. For I honestly doubt people here are worse at reading the subtle hints or at strategy for that matter (which has often been indicated by subsequent posts wanted the 'right' choice).

Personally I don't know what his hope was. But given that he jumped at a very weak chance to gain a political advantage in Greece seems to me that he 'merely' wanted to curb further Roman expansion in Greece and Macedonia. I doubt he wanted the land for himself just yet. Of course it might have been that he did this as the first step. You know, "Stop the Roman, check. Secure the rear, check. Take hold of Macedonia, check. Take hold of Greece, check. Sit back and enjoy, check." He just never managed the first point on the list.

[King Jan III Sobieski]

Wow, this is an old IH.

[Csargo]

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